Matthew Perry debates drug courts with Peter Hitchens - BBC Newsnight

Summary

In this intense debate, Matthew Perry, an actor and former addict, and Baroness Meacher, chair of the UK All-Party Parliamentary Group on Drug Policy Reform, discuss the effectiveness of drug courts. Perry supports them, citing a 55% reduction in recidivism, while others argue that addiction is a health issue, not a crime, and criticize the criminal justice system's approach to drug users. The conversation highlights differing views on treating addiction, with some advocating for a health-focused policy and others emphasizing the importance of deterrence and personal responsibility.

Takeaways

• 😀 Matthew Perry, an actor and former addict, and Baroness Mear, who chairs the UK All Party Parliamentary Group on Drug Policy Reform, discuss faith in drug courts.
• 🔍 Perry has been involved with drug courts for over four years and believes in their effectiveness, citing a 55% reduced chance of re-offending for participants.
• 🤔 The discussion questions whether addicts would quit without intervention, suggesting that drug courts provide a necessary interruption to addiction.
• 🏥 Drug courts are presented as an alternative to prison for first-time, nonviolent drug offenders, offering an 18-month to 2-year program instead of incarceration.
• 📊 The evidence supporting drug courts is described as scanty, with few studies and mixed long-term results, raising questions about their overall impact.
• 👮‍♂️ The conversation touches on the purpose of the criminal justice system, with one view arguing that it should deter crime, while another suggests it should address the root causes of addiction.
• 🇵🇹 Portugal's approach to treating addiction as a health issue, rather than a crime, is highlighted, showing a shift in perspective on how to handle drug use.
• 🚫 There's a debate on whether addiction is a choice or a disease, with Perry arguing that it's a health problem that needs treatment, not punishment.
• 🧬 The script mentions that addiction has genetic and environmental factors, suggesting that a comprehensive approach is needed to address it effectively.
• 🏛️ The conversation criticizes the current system for being too lenient, arguing that it fails to deter drug use and contributes to increased drug abuse.
• 🤝 The importance of personal responsibility and the role of willpower in overcoming addiction is emphasized, with differing opinions on its significance.

Q & A

What is Matthew Perry's perspective on drug courts?

Matthew Perry believes in drug courts because he has been involved with them for over four years and has seen that participants have a 55% less chance of re-offending.

How does Matthew Perry define addiction?

Matthew Perry views addiction as a disease, an allergy of the body and mind that leads to a loss of control over substance use once initiated.

What is the main argument against drug courts presented in the script?

The main argument against drug courts is that the evidence supporting their effectiveness is scanty, and they may not make a significant difference in the long term.

What is the alternative view to treating addiction as a crime?

The alternative view is to treat addiction as a health problem, focusing on prevention and treatment rather than punishment.

What is the stance of the American Medical Association on addiction?

The American Medical Association recognizes addiction as a disease, which contradicts the view of some individuals in the script who argue against this classification.

How does the script discuss the role of the criminal justice system in deterring drug use?

The script suggests that a stern and effective criminal justice system could deter people from taking drugs in the first place by making the consequences of drug use unappealing.

What is the argument made by the character who believes addiction is a choice?

This character argues that people choose to consume drugs and alcohol and that addiction is not a disease, challenging the notion that it's a compulsive behavior beyond one's control.

What evidence is mentioned in the script to support the view that addiction is a health problem?

The script refers to genetic factors and environmental influences, such as childhood abuse and foster care, as evidence that addiction has roots in both nature and nurture.

How does the script address the issue of willpower in addiction?

The script presents a debate where one side argues that willpower is crucial in resisting the first drink or drug, while the other side contends that once the substance is consumed, the body's allergy-like reaction takes over, overpowering willpower.

What examples are given in the script to illustrate different approaches to drug policy?

The script mentions Portugal as an example of a country that has shifted resources from prisons to treatment, resulting in a better record in dealing with addiction compared to Spain and Italy.

What is the counter-argument to the belief that addiction is an allergy of the body?

The counter-argument is that addiction should not be simplified to a bodily allergy, but rather understood as a complex issue that may involve genetic predisposition and environmental factors.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Debate on the Effectiveness of Drug Courts

The first paragraph features a conversation about the role and effectiveness of drug courts. Matthew Perry, an actor and former addict, argues that drug courts significantly reduce the likelihood of reoffending. However, the journalist Peter Hitchin and Baroness Meas, who heads the UK's drug policy reform group, express skepticism about the evidence supporting drug courts and the selection bias of participants. They also debate whether addiction is a health problem or a crime, with Perry advocating for the health perspective and the need for prevention, while Hitchin emphasizes the importance of a strong criminal justice system as a deterrent.

05:01

🤔 The Role of Personal Choice in Addiction

In the second paragraph, the discussion centers on the concept of choice in addiction. Perry maintains that individuals choose to consume drugs or alcohol, challenging the idea that addiction is solely a disease. The opposing view is presented by an unnamed person who argues that addiction is an allergy of the body, implying a lack of control once the substance is consumed. The debate touches on the genetic and environmental factors contributing to addiction, the role of willpower, and the effectiveness of medical versus criminal approaches to addiction treatment.

10:04

🔍 Evaluating the Impact of Drug Policies

The third paragraph continues the debate on addiction and drug policies. The participants discuss the outcomes of different approaches to drug use, with one arguing that a lax approach has led to increased drug use and addiction. The counter-argument is made that research shows voluntary treatment can be as effective as drug courts, emphasizing the importance of personal willingness to change. The conversation also addresses the complexity of addiction, the need for support and treatment, and the flawed assumption that addiction is solely a matter of personal choice or willpower.

Keywords

💡Drug Courts

Drug courts are specialized court programs designed to address the underlying issues of drug addiction among offenders. They offer an alternative to traditional incarceration, focusing on treatment and rehabilitation. In the script, the effectiveness of drug courts is debated, with Matthew Perry citing a 55% reduction in recidivism for participants as evidence of their success.

💡Addiction

Addiction refers to a chronic brain disease characterized by compulsive substance use despite harmful consequences. It is a central theme in the video, with differing views on whether it is a health problem or a lack of willpower. The script discusses the American Medical Association's classification of addiction as a disease and the implications for treatment and criminal justice.

💡Recidivism

Recidivism is the act of a convicted criminal returning to crime after having served a sentence. The script mentions a 55% reduction in recidivism for those who go through drug court, suggesting that these programs can be effective in preventing repeat offenses.

💡Criminal Justice System

The criminal justice system encompasses the institutions and processes involved in the administration of justice, including police, courts, and corrections. The script debates the role of the system in addressing drug addiction, with some arguing for a more punitive approach and others advocating for treatment as a solution.

💡Treatment

Treatment in the context of the script refers to medical or psychological interventions aimed at helping individuals overcome addiction. It is presented as an alternative to punitive measures within the criminal justice system, with examples given of countries like Portugal that have shifted resources from prisons to treatment.

💡Willpower

Willpower is the ability to resist short-term temptations in favor of long-term goals. In the script, there is a debate about whether addiction is a result of a lack of willpower or a disease that requires medical intervention. One participant argues that addiction is a choice, while others disagree.

💡Genetic

Genetic refers to the hereditary factors that influence certain traits or conditions. The script mentions that addiction can have a genetic component, suggesting that some individuals may be predisposed to developing substance use disorders due to their genetic makeup.

💡Environmental Factors

Environmental factors are external conditions or influences that can affect an individual's behavior or health. The script discusses how factors such as childhood abuse or growing up in a children's home can contribute to the development of addiction, highlighting the complex interplay between nature and nurture.

💡Deterrence

Deterrence is the concept of preventing an action or behavior by making it unpalatable or risky through punishment or negative consequences. In the script, one participant argues that a stern criminal justice system should deter individuals from using drugs in the first place.

💡Policy Reform

Policy reform refers to the process of changing or improving existing policies, particularly in the context of drug policy in this video. The script includes a discussion on the effectiveness of current policies and the need for reform to better address the issue of drug addiction.

💡Health Problem

In the script, addiction is framed by some participants as a health problem rather than a criminal one. This perspective suggests that addressing addiction through medical treatment and support is more effective and compassionate than punitive measures.

Highlights

Faith in drug courts is based on their observed effectiveness, with participants having a 55% less chance of reoffending.

The necessity of distinguishing between addicts and non-addicts is questioned, with the suggestion that addiction is a continuous cycle until interrupted.

Drug courts offer an alternative to prison for first-time, nonviolent drug offenders, implementing an 18-month to 2-year program.

Criticism of drug courts due to limited evidence supporting their long-term effectiveness.

Concerns about the selection bias in who goes through drug courts and its impact on their perceived success.

The criminal justice system is criticized for failing to deter crime effectively, with a call for a tougher stance.

A counter-argument is presented that addiction should be treated as a health problem, not a crime, citing Portugal's shift in focus from prisons to treatment.

The American Medical Association's classification of addiction as a disease in 1976 is challenged.

The belief that addiction is a choice and a lack of willpower is debated against the medical view of it as a disease.

The role of genetics and environment in addiction is discussed, with evidence suggesting a combination of both factors.

The effectiveness of deterrence through a stern criminal justice system is questioned, with arguments that it has not reduced drug use.

The importance of prevention in tackling addiction, with the suggestion that efforts should focus on stopping people from starting drug use.

A debate on the definition of addiction as a disease, with disagreement on the existence of an 'allergy of the body'.

The argument that addiction treatment should not be compulsory, with the belief that individuals must want to change.

A claim that drug courts do not significantly outperform voluntary treatment in terms of effectiveness.

The complexity of addiction treatment is highlighted, emphasizing the need for sobriety and support for effective decision-making.

The discussion concludes with a challenge to the opposing view, questioning the validity of the policy that has led to increased drug use.

Transcripts

now is the actor and former addict

Matthew Perry the journalist Peter

Hitchin and baroness mea who chairs the

UK all party parliamentary group on drug

policy reform why do you have such faith

in drug courts uh well that's uh kind of

an easy question to answer I see that

they work I see that uh I've been

involved with them for about four years

and a little over four years and uh

people that go through drug court have a

55% less chance of uh seeing hand

handcuffs ever

again how do you know that these people

wouldn't have quit their drug happy to

anyway well that that gets into a bigger

question of whether these people are

addicts or not you know what I mean if

they're if they're drug addicts and

alcoholics then they're going to keep

going until something stops them and

drug court is a wonderful way to to

interrupt that process and it's a it's a

way to not throw these people away so it

takes first time non uh nonviolent drug

offenders and instead of throwing them

into prison it puts them into a uh

18-month to 2-year program what's not to

like about it well the evidence in favor

of them is pretty scanty there haven't

been many serious studies I think one in

B War One in Arizona and one somewhere

else in the United States and they tend

to suggest it over the long term then

they don't make much difference anyway

and the selection of the people who go

through them I think has some has some

impact on it but the real problem for me

is this that what you're saying is

you're effectively you're seeking to

fail in a criminal justice system the

whole point of a criminal justice system

and we forget this all the time is to

deter people from committing crimes once

you've arrested someone once they've

appeared in court it has already failed

and to soften the court system to make

it into a kind of Jolly where the judge

wears trackit bottom is nice to the off

you should see you should see some of

the things that have been going on in

this country the West London Drug Court

where the the judge said wore tracksuit

bottoms and was Macy with the defendants

this gives the impression not of the

Majesty of justice but of somebody

trying to be nice now actually it

doesn't do anybody any favors to try and

be nice to drug Tak there's nothing

wrong the problem there's a great deal

wrong with it because if you want to

stop people becoming drug users then the

best thing to do is is is to make sure

they never start in the first place and

an effective deterrent Criminal Justice

System point

isal started well yes because they've

started because the criminal justice

system peopleit feeble is isn't the real

problem it's it's feeble from the start

if you me you can have a contribution

here come on isn't the problem that by

the time you get to a drug court you've

already assumed that that drug addiction

is a crime actually drug addiction is a

health problem so the first thing you've

got to do is some preventive work

prevent people becoming drug addicts and

that we now know there's good evidence

that you can do that Portugal have

switched vast sums of money from prisons

to treatment they have vastly more

people in treatment than we do here uh

they they have a much better record than

Spain and Italy you can deal with this

as a health problem instead of waiting

till people get become really severe

addicts get into the criminal justice

system and then okay I agree with you uh

can be more I'm not understanding your

your point your point is to stop drug

drugs and alcoholism by just never

people never starting will you two

believe in this fantasy of addiction in

which people lose fantasy of addiction

complete fantasy in which people lose

lose lose the lose lose all all all

power over themselves and and become

victims of this terrible frightening

disease wait let me finish this is what

you believe this terrible frightening

disease after which they cannot stop

taking drugs if you really believed that

then you would presumably think the best

thing would be they never ever came in

contact with those drugs

would it be wise to deter them from

doing so by a Stern and effective

criminal justice system which actually

persuaded them it was unwise to take the

drugs in the first place when do I get

speak if you really believe when can I

speak speak okay so I didn't come here

to be quiet neither did I I didn't I

didn't come here to listen to ludicrous

things like that either so will you tell

me why it's ludicrous if you're so close

I will I will the American Medical

Association diagnosed at a disease in

1976 so you're saying that that's

incorrect yeah look I'm people the

medical profession is constantly doing

extraordinary things the American

Psychiatric association said for years

that

homosexuality they were wrong all kinds

of things are said by medical Prof key

thing is we've had this policy for 50 50

years we've had this policy of of my

life is the OB treating addiction as a

crime 50 years and we now know that it

doesn't work it doesn't work anywhere in

the world increasingly in the US Uruguay

and elsewhere and in Europe things are

changing my life is I I'm a I'm a drug

addict I'm a person that if I have a

drink I can't

stop and so it would be following your

ideology that I'm choosing to do that

that I'm choosing that's exactly my not

my ideology it is my belief yes you do

choose it is and it's a belief that you

wrote in your book correct you have a

choice whether whether you drink or not

you have a choice your book is the only

book in modern times that has this

ideology so doesn't that teach you

something well quite often quite often

unfashionable ideas are unfashionable

because they are unpopular with with

with with influential people doesn't

necessarily bother me the you tell me

what the objective diagnosis is to to

establish the existence of addiction in

the human

body it's an allergy of the body and

it's

an of what we're supposed to be grown

men here and you're making faces like

the guy like the guy who's wearing the

pants that you were talking about

earlier I'm expecting you to come out in

the pants in a minute it's a objection

it's an exception of your mind and an

allergy of your body so this is what

happens to me I start thinking about

alcohol I can't stop I can't stop

thinking about it what's the objective

physical proof of this inability to stop

the there's a considerable proof this is

partly a genetic problem isn't your

argument is that it's Willow course it's

willpower people all the people people

constantly stop

both drinking and taking

drugs wrong were not involve will on

your part not to do it now isn't

it I'm in control of the first drink and

so I do all these things to protect

myself from not having the first drink

sure but once I have that drink the

allergy of the body kicks in this is all

documented alcoholism proof Then I then

I can't stop after that problem with P I

mean I'm allergic

it doesn't mean I I I have I have to

drink but you have to look at the

evidence what is this what is this what

is this allergy it's it's analogy of

your body it's just it's just it's just

not that your aspiring Point not that

your aspiring Point wasn't wasn't genius

but uh but you don't know what you're

talking about that's right you've got to

look at countries that have done it

differently come up with asked him to

come up with an objective an objective

diagnosis the presence of this force in

his body knows yourself is the reverse

of objective myself and 10 million other

alcoholics and addicts across Across

America and across the world are having

having these problems people people have

problems with drugs and drink people

people like taking them and they don't

want to stop taking them but it doesn't

mean they have a disease that needs to

be treated so the American Medical

Association is wrong in your opinion if

if the American Association says it's a

disease yes yes of course they're wrong

it is there's an IM fashion at the

moment right there's an immense fashion

at the moment right there's immense

fashion at the moment for for for for

simply for for dismissing the ability of

people to take control over their own

lives and to make excuses for them we

have far from 50 from 50 years been

treating alleged addiction as a disease

as as a crime we've been treating it as

a disease and the result is we have many

many more drug users than we did when

this policy started the medical the

medical evidence shows that addiction is

in part A genetic problem and in part an

environmental one if you've got parents

with an addiction you then have and if

you then have abuse sexual abuse child

abuse you'll be brought up in a

children's home lots of foster parents

you've got this genetic problem anyway

the evidence is very very clear you have

a medical health problem and countries

that have addressed this and dealt with

it as a health problem are doing a lot

better than we are we can save money we

can say we can reduce crime we can get

people better stop having them on

benefits we can have them paying taxes

if we want to save money and help people

then we know how to do it since we

follow since we' followed your policies

more and more people have been taking

dangerous and damaging drugs since we

since we since we've ceased ceased

treating drug possession as a crime and

have and have more or less ceased either

arresting or Prosecuting people

possessing drugs since we have

classified drug takers as people with a

medical problem we have had more and

more of let me ask can that possibly be

right give him one quick put down if you

want to you go ahead you're making a

point that is ludicrous as saying that

Peter Pan was real well you keep saying

that but you you cannot come up with an

objective definition of the thing which

I was toce an argument may be useful to

you which is this that isn't the point

about drug courts that you that people

have to be compelled to get clean and

that in itself tells you something yeah

they don't have to be compelled well

they have to be compelled you have to

have the will you have to you have to

have the willingness to change drug

courts don't do much better than

voluntary treatment drug courts do

fairly much the same that's not true

either it's not as crazy as what he's

saying but it's not true either well

there is research evidence to show that

that you do as well roughly with

voluntary treatment as you do in drug

courts but actually they've got to want

to do it they have and and and to be

well enough to do it and

St but they've got to have reached a

stage have sufficient support sufficient

treatment now this is very complicated

cleaned up simple will it's much more

complicated they have to be sober to

make that decision they can't be they

can't be intoxicated to make that DEC

how is it that people ever cease to be

addicts if what you say is true well

Santa um yeah I it's it's it's terribly

clever but this is a very serious

subject and you treat it with immense

levity how is it how is it that if if

what you say what you say the policy

which you so smugly and and and and and

and loftily advocate this policy which

has led to disaster in in in Western

countries for for decades how is it that

if what you say the policy how how is it

that people because it has it it has led

to a laxness in in the law which is

which has meant many many more people

taking the terrible risk of taking the

drugs which you say are addictive and we

all agree are damag that is simply not

true and We Know It And the research

shows it quite simple all you got to do

Peter is a bit of reading of the

evidence and you will find read

something other than book okay all right

that's enough thank you he cannot he

cannot argue seriously