Lessons from building a $1 billion market cap blockchain

Summary

The video transcript features an in-depth conversation with Jos, the co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin, discussing the challenges and strategies of building a successful Web 3 gaming ecosystem. Key points include the importance of innovation in a rapidly evolving industry, the significance of community as a primary distribution channel, and the concept of 'play-to-earn' as a driver for user engagement and adoption. Jos emphasizes the necessity of having a strong co-founder dynamic, akin to a marriage, to sustain the business through tough times. He also touches on the evolution of NFTs and the potential for new business models within the gaming industry, suggesting that the future of play-to-earn lies in balancing economic sustainability with engaging game mechanics.

Takeaways

• 🚀 **Innovation and Resilience**: Axie Infinity and Ronin were forged by challenges, with the team becoming stronger after each adversity, akin to a Super Saiyan.
• 🎯 **Lack of Playbook**: There is no established playbook for building in the web3 gaming industry, necessitating innovation and first-principles thinking.
• 🌱 **Niche Dominance**: Starting small and niched, like dominating web3 gaming, can lead to expansion and broader impact, mirroring the growth strategies of major companies like Amazon and Google.
• 💡 **Cross-Disciplinary Inspiration**: The best ideas often come from combining concepts from different fields, such as biology, astronomy, and physics.
• 🔄 **Adaptability**: The ability to adapt and evolve is crucial, as seen in the transition from a single game to a dominant gaming chain and beyond.
• 🤝 **Community as Partners**: Engaging the community is vital, with members acting as partners in the co-creation process, significantly contributing to product direction and onboarding.
• 📈 **Sustainable Growth**: AXS has become a sustainable product within the crypto space, generating consistent revenue and user engagement.
• 🌟 **Dynamic NFTs**: Introducing dynamic NFTs that evolve with use is an innovative concept that could redefine digital collectibles.
• 📊 **Metrics and Models**: The business model for NFTs and digital collectibles is still emerging, with attention and community building being key in the early stages.
• 🧩 **Information Diet**: Staying competitive involves a curated information diet, learning from various sources, and adapting successful strategies from other industries or platforms.
• ⚖️ **Balanced Teams**: A successful founding team isn't made of well-rounded individuals but rather a balance of individuals with specific, strong skill sets.

Q & A

What is the biggest challenge faced by the co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin?

The biggest challenge has been that there is no playbook for what they're doing, as they are building in a very new industry within a subset of that industry, web3 gaming. It's not just an execution problem but also an innovation question, requiring thinking from first principles and a cross-disciplinary approach.

How does the concept of 'play to earn' in Axie Infinity relate to real-world business models?

The 'play to earn' concept was inspired by looking at real-world business models like Uber paying drivers when there were no riders. It's about creating new forms of value exchange that haven't been done before in the gaming and blockchain space.

What is the significance of community in the context of web3?

Community is King in web3 because it serves as the primary distribution channel. It's not just about having a good product; the community's involvement is crucial for spreading the product and making it successful.

What is the current state of Axie Infinity in terms of monthly active users and revenue?

Axie Infinity has around 180,000 monthly active users and generates approximately $200,000 a month in revenue.

How does the concept of Dynamic NFTs work in the context of Axie Infinity?

Dynamic NFTs in Axie Infinity are digital collectibles that increase in value, power, and aesthetics the more they are used. They have on-chain levels that can be upgraded using experience points, representing an innovative approach to NFTs.

What is the future vision for Ronin as a blockchain?

The plan for Ronin is to first dominate the gaming industry and then expand into other verticals like e-commerce and payments, aiming to fulfill the original dream of blockchain technology to democratize financial services.

What is the role of a growth team in the context of a startup?

A growth team differs from a marketing team as it has a more significant impact on the product and covers the entire user journey, not just the bottom or top of the funnel. It involves understanding agile development practices and product development to interface effectively with product managers.

What are some of the key skills a founder should possess?

A founder should have a strong understanding of engineering, business and negotiation, aesthetic sense, and community engagement. It's not about being a jack of all trades but having a balanced team with individuals who are highly skilled in specific areas.

How does the concept of 'distribution is King' apply to web3 products?

In web3, community is the primary and most effective distribution channel. It is crucial for user adoption and can amplify all other strategies. A good product with poor marketing can outperform a poor product with good marketing due to the power of community-driven distribution.

What is the importance of an 'information diet' for founders?

An information diet refers to the sources of information and ideas a founder consumes. It's important for staying up-to-date with trends, getting inspired, and innovating by combining new ideas from various fields.

What advice does Jos provide for aspiring founders?

Jos advises aspiring founders to find co-founders they can trust and work well with, as they will become like family. He emphasizes the importance of having the right team dynamics and chemistry, which contributes significantly to the success of the venture.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Founding Challenges and Innovation in Web 3 Gaming

The co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin discusses the significant challenges faced during the development of their platforms, emphasizing the lack of a playbook in a new and rapidly evolving industry. The summary highlights the importance of innovation, drawing from diverse fields, and the concept of becoming antifragile by overcoming near-death experiences. It also touches on the strategy of niching down in blockchain gaming and the potential for expansion into other verticals like e-commerce and payments.

05:01

🌱 Building a Self-Sustaining Ecosystem in Web 3

The paragraph delves into the self-sustaining nature of the Axie Infinity ecosystem, which generates a substantial monthly revenue and has a large user base. It explores the concept of 'play to earn' and the introduction of dynamic NFTs, which are digital collectibles that increase in value with use. The summary also discusses the potential for new business models and the importance of community in the Web 3 space.

10:02

🤝 The Role of Community and NFTs in Business Strategy

This section examines the role of community in the success of digital collectibles and NFTs. It describes how community engagement can foster a strong culture and how NFTs represent a form of debt that needs to be repaid with value. The summary also addresses the challenges founders may face in managing community expectations and the importance of viewing NFT holders as partners in the business.

15:03

📈 Growth, Leadership, and the Evolution of Axie Infinity

The founder reflects on the skills he wished he had three years ago, such as better project management and leading by inspiration. The summary outlines the evolution of the growth team at Axie Infinity and the importance of understanding agile development practices. It also discusses the challenge of scaling the company while maintaining a close connection with the community and the product.

20:05

🧩 Balancing Individual Strengths in a Founding Team

The paragraph emphasizes the importance of having a well-balanced founding team composed of individuals with complementary skills. The summary highlights the need for a mix of engineering, business acumen, aesthetic sense, and community engagement skills within the team. It also touches on the concept of a good founder being a master of one or a jack of all trades.

25:08

🌟 The Power of Community as a Distribution Channel

This section discusses the significance of community in Web 3 as the primary distribution channel. The summary explains how community involvement can amplify other strategies and is crucial for the success of referral programs and play-to-earn models. It also mentions the importance of creating products that the community loves enough to bring in new users.

30:10

📚 Staying Ahead of Trends with the Right Information Diet

The founder shares insights on how to remain competitive by having the right information diet, which involves being exposed to a variety of ideas and people. The summary explores the concept of combining ideas from different sources to innovate and the importance of being in the right position to apply these ideas to the product. It also discusses the resurgence of play-to-earn models and the need to adapt and experiment with different token syncs.

35:10

🎮 Learning from the Pioneers of Play-to-Earn Gaming

The paragraph draws inspiration from pioneering games like RuneScape and EV online, which have successfully implemented play-to-earn mechanics. The summary discusses the future of play-to-earn, focusing on balancing the economy and learning from these games. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the contributions of these early innovators in the gaming industry.

🤝 Choosing the Right Co-founders for Startup Success

The founder shares advice for aspiring founders, emphasizing the importance of choosing the right co-founders who can be trusted and with whom one can build a strong, long-lasting relationship. The summary highlights the significance of co-founder dynamics in overcoming business challenges and the personal sacrifices made for the success of the venture.

Keywords

💡Play to Earn

Play to Earn is a gaming model where players can earn real-world value, often in the form of cryptocurrency or NFTs, by participating in the game. It is a key concept in the video as it is a mechanism that the speaker, Jos, discusses as being integral to the success of their gaming platform, Axie Infinity, and the broader web3 gaming ecosystem.

💡Web3

Web3 refers to the third generation of the internet, often associated with decentralized technologies like blockchain and cryptocurrencies. In the context of the video, Web3 is the environment in which the gaming platform operates, emphasizing user ownership and community involvement, which is a central theme in Jos's discussion about the future of gaming and digital collectibles.

💡NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens)

NFTs are unique digital assets that represent ownership of a specific item or piece of content and are stored on a blockchain. They are mentioned in the video as a form of digital collectible that can be used within games like Axie Infinity. Jos discusses how NFTs are seen as a form of debt to the community, implying the expectation of value in return for the NFTs issued.

💡Community

Community refers to the group of users or players that engage with a product or service. In the video, Jos emphasizes the importance of community as a distribution channel in Web3, stating that it is the primary means of spreading awareness and driving user adoption for their gaming platform.

💡Dynamic NFTs

Dynamic NFTs are a type of NFT that can change or evolve based on certain conditions or actions, such as gameplay. Jos introduces this concept as an innovative feature within Axie Infinity, where the NFTs become more valuable and powerful the more they are used, representing a new direction for NFT utility and engagement within gaming.

💡Ronin Blockchain

Ronin is a blockchain platform specifically designed for gaming and is mentioned as the second most used blockchain in the world according to the video. It serves as the infrastructure for Axie Infinity, highlighting the importance of a robust and dedicated platform for supporting the gaming ecosystem.

💡Antifragile

Antifragile is a concept that describes systems or entities that not only resist shocks or stresses but actually grow stronger as a result. Jos uses this term to describe the resilience of their company, Axie Infinity, and how it has faced and overcome significant challenges in the market, becoming stronger with each obstacle.

💡Product-Market Fit

Product-Market Fit refers to the match between a product and what the market wants or needs. Jos discusses the importance of achieving product-market fit and how it is a critical goal for startups, especially in the nascent and rapidly evolving web3 space.

💡Distribution

In the context of the video, distribution refers to the channels through which a product reaches its target audience. Jos emphasizes that distribution is key in the success of a product, and in the web3 space, the community acts as the primary distribution channel, which is a central theme in the discussion about the growth and adoption of their gaming platform.

💡Co-founder Dynamics

Co-founder Dynamics pertain to the relationships and interactions between the individuals who start a company together. Jos shares his personal experience, highlighting the importance of having co-founders with complementary skills and a strong, trusting relationship, which is crucial for navigating the challenges of building a startup.

💡Information Diet

Information Diet refers to the sources and types of information that one consumes regularly. Jos discusses the concept as a means of staying competitive and innovative, suggesting that being exposed to a diverse range of ideas and trends is essential for creating successful products in the fast-paced tech industry.

Highlights

Axi Infinity and Ronin have been through multiple bear markets and near-death experiences, but each time they come back stronger, embodying the concept of becoming antifragile.

There is no playbook for building in the new and niche web3 gaming industry, requiring innovation and thinking from first principles.

Axi Infinity generates around $200,000 a month with 180,000 monthly active users, making it a sustainable product in the crypto space.

Ronin is the second most used blockchain in the world with 1.2 million daily active users, positioning it as a market mover in web3 and the crypto space.

The biggest challenge is coming up with innovative ideas that have never been done before in the web3 gaming space.

Axi Infinity is exploring new concepts like Dynamic NFTs where the NFTs become more valuable and powerful the more they are used.

The business model for NFTs and digital collectibles is still being figured out, with NFTs seen as a form of debt that needs to be repaid to the community.

Community is the most important distribution channel in web3, amplifying all other strategies.

A good product with poor marketing can outperform a poor product with good marketing, as distribution is key.

Successful founding teams have well-balanced individuals with complementary skills like engineering, business, aesthetics, and community sense.

Axi Infinity is focusing on sustainable growth and introducing new concepts like play-to-earn, even in a bear market.

Play-to-earn is making a comeback as the bull market returns, with Axi Infinity looking to make it more fun, engaging and sustainable.

Studying successful play-to-earn economies from web2 games like RuneScape can provide insights for the future of play-to-earn in web3.

Axi Infinity is exploring innovative ideas like on-chain Tamagotchi and airdrop distributions to stay ahead of the curve.

The key to Axi Infinity's success is the strong co-founder dynamic and chemistry, akin to choosing a spouse.

Axi Infinity is focused on building a self-sustaining ecosystem by leveraging its strong community and user base.

Transcripts

through the years as you were building

axi have been building Ronin what has

been the biggest challenges that you

have faced as a co-founder axi has

around 180,000 monthly active users it

generates around $200,000 a month it's

doing well we need to reintroduce some

crazy Concepts right how would you

justify for some of the founders that

are watching this that want to

revolutionize the future of this

industry like you are you need to do it

carefully anything you do in this space

will come with expectations anything you

do as an entrepreneur will come with

expectations right don't recommend doing

this if you have a thin skin would you

say that a good product with poor

marketing would outperform a poor

product with good marketing distribution

is King right a lesser product can win

because of distribution why do people

say that Community is King in web 3 well

because Community is your distribution

so would you say a good founder is a

master of one or Jack of all traits so

hey Jos my man it's great to have you

here you are the founder or the

co-founder I will say of axi infinity

and Ronin

Ronan is the second most used blockchain

in the world according to a tweet made

by Ronan

today and you have about 1.2 million

daily active users

in your ecosystem to say that you guys

are Market Movers to say that you are a

Jugger note in the web3 the nft and the

crypto space would be an

understatement but Jos I have a question

for you often times s the biggest tree

in the forest has lived through the most

storms so my question for you is through

the years as you were building axi as

were you have been building Ronin what

has been the biggest challenges that you

have faced as a co-founder along the

journey yeah I mean I think it's clear I

think many people will be familiar with

the fact that axi and Ronin we were

forged by fire right we've been through

through multiple bare markets we've been

through multiple near-death experiences

right like I kind of think of us as a

Super Saiyan or a saian right every time

we almost die we come back stronger

that's a feature not a bug right um

becoming

antifragile um part that's part of the

process right so I think the biggest

challenge has

been that there is no playbook for what

we're doing and we're

at we're building in an industry that is

very new and we're building within a

subset of that

industry web 3 gaming MH right that is

quite small there aren't many right

success stories or success cases so a

lot of the things it's not just like an

execution problem right or a resilience

or

a willpower thing it's also an

innovation question right like how do

you come up with ideas that have never

been done before so you really have to

think from first principles I think

or have a cross-disciplinary approach

where you're like hey this is something

that worked over there right like so

play to earn where is what is play to

earn inspired by if play to earn did ex

didn't exist it was inspired by looking

at things like uber Uber paying drivers

uh when there were no Riders um right so

you you have to like look all across the

startup space um even into biology other

in right like biology astronomy physics

for ideas because the there is nothing

to look at in the space especially in

the early days right it's gotten earlier

so I would say that's the biggest

challenge right is like that there is

no right like how can you teach

something or how can you know what to do

if uh it's a totally new

industry and it's it's interesting you

say that I heard it somewhere that

Innovation is when you take two things

that were never seen together you find a

way to put them together for the first

time for you and Ronan would you say

that niching down going sub Nitch not

only blockchain but blockchain gaming

and being the dominant chain for that do

you think that facilitated in your

process of becoming antifragile

navigating the storms as they came and

they've gone and was that for you a

thoughtful process that we are going to

Niche down and this is the niche we're

going to

dominate or do you intend on breaching

out eventually from that

Niche so the biggest businesses right

they always start super small and then

expand out right this is common startup

industry knowledge Amazon started as an

online bookstore Google just a search

engine right so our plan is to dominate

gaming right first it was like let's be

the number one most used game right then

we can roll that in right we we already

see us expanding out right first we were

just one game Maxi Infinity boom we use

that as distribution and go to market

for the infrastructure boom We expand

out now we have like the dominant gaming

chain so we have all the we have the

users aggregated the thing that web 3 is

missing is user adoption by everyday

people and so now that we have this

right we uh Shore up this Monopoly right

of uh of gaming adoption and then what

is the next vertical that you can expand

into right there are a lot e-commerce

payments right to actually fulfill the

original Dream of this industry right

was to democratize financial services

democratize the ability to transfer

money to anyone anywhere in the world

you you now start to like disrupt things

like Western Union right uh with

uh you know uh money transfers like that

you start to disrupt things like credit

card companies right uh have you ever

tried to use like an American Express

card like in most parts of the world

they don't even take American Express

because it's like a almost a four 2 and

a half% plus fee right imagine if it was

just 0 2% um that's those are these are

some of the right like business

opportunities that open up and this is

also like one of the things that

prevents people from competing in the

space and like prevents people from

being able to even comprehend what we're

doing because what if gaming is not

necessarily where you make the money

right uh people were like oh play to

earn web three gaming needs to be

sustainable right they keep thinking

about like applying web to and

Antiquated models of monetization onto a

new industry right so it's like why

should why should the individual games

themselves even need to be sustainable

if the thing that you're building is

this huge Network and you can monetize

on like right e-commerce payments things

like that right Uber is maybe even a

good example right like people were like

ah Uber like I had a lot of friends who

worked at Uber and they went through

like similar haters they had mad haters

right like Travis had haters the

business model had

haters and people are like ah Uber is

losing money Uber is spending money it's

not sustainable right but then it's like

no they just moved in they had Uber Eats

and now they're actually printing money

right they just had their first

profitable uh year so you know I can say

all these things literally people will

you know not not do it so I don't I

don't feel like I don't I don't and they

they're not no one is in the position

right to even be able to do it right so

I I feel okay just kind of just being

out here telling people how how we think

about the potential strategy long term

and because I I do believe that we're

the only ones in the position uh to

execute this because we do have right we

have the people we have the gamers on

our side we have uh we have we have the

users wow what a point what a point

losing on the front end with a product

that might not be profitable so you can

win on the back end with these customers

now that they're in your

ecosystem can we dive a little bit

deeper one layer deeper into that how

does that look like for axi or for an

ecosystem like that of ronin you have

multiple games you have millions of

users to the extent that you can share

your onboarding processes play to earn

but how is it

that you've built an ecosystem that is

self- sustaining or on the path to that

yeah I mean so axi is actually too

boring and too sustainable right now axi

generates around

$200,000 uh a month uh in in Revenue um

with um it's was one of the most boring

and sustainable products in all of

crypto it went from being right the face

of play to earn lots of people screaming

and whining and and uh and uh scar uh

being scared about it to now being like

one of the most boring sustainable

products in crypto I think it's too

boring sustainable for this bare Market

which is like I think like people are

kind of like what's going on with axi

right axi has around 180,000 monthly

active uh users it generates around

$200,000 a month um it's doing pretty

well um it is right it's it's it's it's

doing well but I I think that we need to

reintroduce some crazy Concepts right so

I just tweeted yesterday right like

would you play AI if you could earn a

kilo of rice per week by just playing 10

10 minutes per day and people seemed

really interested in that right like can

we test out some basic income uh

experiments can we really bring back

play to earn um so these are these are

some of the things that I'm thinking

about with axi of

course the games are going to continue

to get better the IP needs to be

developed we're going to experiment with

different web 3 mechanics right we just

actually introduced Dynamic nfts uh

through axi this is a idea that's ahead

of its time it's too good for the

current market uh it's basically the

idea that right Axis are becoming

digital Collectibles

that get more valuable get more powerful

get more beautiful the more you use them

right so basically axis now have onchain

level lels and you can actually upgrade

their appearance uh how strong they are

uh based on their onchain levels right

and you actually need experience points

to increase their onchain levels this is

this idea is too good for the current

market uh eventually I think it this

will be the standard within uh nft

collections but right now it's uh it's

too Innovative uh and it might just not

have had right the right

uh push or the right circumstances right

like we actually cre play to

earn um and made the first uh ex-human

one of our community members made the

first Unis swap SLP pool back in 2020

took about 10 to 10 to 14 months for

play to earn to really take off right so

I think Dynamic nft is going to be a

thing I think that we're leading the

space uh when it comes to Dynamic nfts

yeah

and the the right conditions have uh

just not necessarily like

percolated to to really have it Go

exponential but people are spending

around $20,000 a week upgrading their

axes right so when you think about like

new interesting business models this is

it right like most nft collections they

have to rely on mints or Creator

royalties uh this is more like a

subscription right uh people are

basically paying uh AXS um access tokens

right to uh for the right to upgrade

their axes right alongside right like

different gameplay requirements so

um those are yeah those are some of the

things I'm thinking about with ax here

right now interesting

fascinating there's there's so many

angles we can take from

here you mentioned the word business

model which was very good one of the the

the issues that we with this industry

that we're in is that we're still trying

to figure ourselves out we're in that

stage of the internet back 20 20 over 20

years years ago when there was a lot of

startups a lot of companies and a lot of

speculation but there was not a proven

blueprint that people could replicate

and businesses could come in and inject

large liquidity to build on top of on

board their existing customers and build

on top of you mentioned business model

what does the way you see from a

theoretical perspective what does the

business model of digital Collectibles

as we call nfts what does that look

like the way you see it I I would would

say that this is

uh this is something that has not really

been figured out um by by the industry

but here are some of the things that we

probably know about digital Collectibles

right and nfts they are great for

bootstrapping attention they're great

for forming an early

Community they are seen as a form of

debt where if you issue

nfts there is an expectation right that

you they PE that the people who buy them

or earn them get some sort of value in

return that could be monetary value

right that could be social status that

could be fun and

enjoyment uh but the means in which you

repay that debt in quotation marks as a

Founder is actually what creates culture

this is what I believe so people are

like why would I why would I you know be

beholden to these holders why would I

cave to their to their needy demands but

no I actually believe that right

by having that relationship that

interplay that exchange of value that's

actually how you create culture and

right it's building blocks right cuz we

don't necessarily need to have a very

sustainable boring business right now

it's the birth of the industry right

it's it's like someone once told me if

your VC is asking you your seed round

even your seed series a about your

business model like run from that VC

right because the thing that you're

trying to do is get product Market fit

and or traction attention right we call

it the attention economy now right it's

like right now we're just like figuring

out how to bootstrap attention how to

bootstrap people using the

technology this you know the boring uh

the boring stuff I think we'll we'll get

figured out later and but so those are

some of my thoughts right around nfts

around digital Collectibles about why

how we use

them and and yeah you know it's it's a

weird it's kind of a weird thing I see

them a little bit in terms of right like

debt or expectations right you you you

create them and then people have all

these

expectations um and some Founders

crumble at that and they're like I'm not

going to do it I'm I cannot deal with

having all these

people uh wanting something for me I'm

used to want people wanting

things for me all my life uh so I think

we're all okay with it right and then

it's like you know how do you yeah you

basically can create that culture and

that culture uh you know can be used to

bootstrap other things right but it's

not perfect right like we have you know

these very hard questions right like oh

right should the origin axis and the

original axis should they like go up

more than AXS or Ron right um are they a

similar asset class or are they

different

and these are all really hard things uh

but we have some experiments cooking

right for example imagine

if rather than staking your

nft right to get tokens what if holding

an nft that is like high status right

like a Mystic axi Like An Origin axi

acted as a staking modifier right so

then it's like if you're staking uh

you're staking you're staking a pool

your your rewards are not just like

right dependent

on um your amount right it's also like

dependent on some of the markers of

reputation that you have in the

ecosystem with these digital

Collectibles right being one of those

inputs okay the three points you made

which are a brand emitting nfts will

achieve three things the first one you

can bootstrap attention you can foster

stronger Community spirit

and number three they are seen as a form

of debt that you have to repay to your

community if we are to dance a little

bit around that idea together how would

you justify for some of the founders

that are watching this that want to

build that want to revolutionize the

future of this industry like you are

today how would you justify them taking

on the cost of community which is often

times seen as a liability after they

launch their nft you need to do it

carefully but if you don't launch

something of value right either a token

right an

nft every anything you do in this space

will come with expectations anything you

do as an entrepreneur will come with

expectations right it's not just right

it's it's not in the in the past that

would be like your friends your family

the people around you your investors

right now this is more this is way more

vulnerable of a thing because you're

building in public it takes a special

type of person I don't recommend doing

this if you have a thin skin if you're

afraid of what people think of you if

you're afraid of people wanting stuff

from you this is not for you right uh

some people thrive on that though some

people love to

deliver um and some people have been

waiting their entire lives to build a

product that people care about so much

they care too much right that's one of

the things about nft is people care

literally sometimes too much right

they're like yelling at you but they're

right it's like don't run away from that

right don't ban those people right it's

like meet that with wow like I really

feel so honored that you feel this

strongly about this

right like the number one thing that

right is like the number one thing that

you want to avoid is indifference right

like people not caring right it's like

on the extremes right like that's right

like you want to have like some intense

love and some intense hate these are non

one of the things that's right like

before we had NFS crypto was so freaking

boring there was no emotion right now

like with nfts there's almost too much

emotion

right very interesting very interesting

it's funny when you say the last thing

you want is people being indifferent I

think it was uh Warren Buffett he

said good press bad press the only thing

you never want is someone mispronouncing

your name is

someone completely forgetting about your

brand and like you said with passion you

get the two sides you get the ups and

the Downs that comes with a passionate

Community behind

you Jus would you see commun nft nft

holders would you see them more as

shareholders or

customers it's a new form of

relationship between the founders and uh

the people in the community right it's

like it's a new asset class it's a new

form of a relationship right um so I

don't I don't see them as either um I

would see them as right Partners or

co-build right we're co-creating what

are the things that we're doing we're

co-creating together we're building

together um they're very intimately

involved in right the process of

building out your product um of

spreading your product um right they're

they are doing things right they're

helping to shap to product Direction

they're helping to onboard uh people

into the community right like 70% of

people at least in our ecosystem or

sorry 40% of people in our ecosystem

were onboarded by a friend or family

member very very important right um that

and that's actually right just around

the same amount that's onboarded via

Twitter Facebook twitch YouTube right so

we talk a lot about creators but

actually a lot of the onboarding is done

by the everyday community members that

you might not even create consider a

Creator

right um so it's a special relationship

I don't know I see our right I see our

community members as a lot of them from

the early days they're my they're just

my friends right like people I think

sometimes used to find that hard to

comprehend they're like how do you know

how do you know like what these people

think it's like well I'm I'm talking to

them I even live near some of them live

with some of them at at certain points

so okay okay Partners what is when skill

you wished you

had 3 years ago maybe better like

project management uh uh skills and my

way of leading right is like I don't

know I like to lead by inspiration lead

by

example

um oh sometimes I feel like uh

yeah May that that's maybe something

that that could have helped right is

like you know uh that's something that I

had to go get better at right is like

like you know how do we actually go from

great idea um and or an energetic team

right to like okay it's actually

happening that that that's maybe one

thing uh maybe you know

I so I I lead the growth team right and

a growth team how does that differ from

a marketing team it's right you can have

like more effect on the product right

they basically the entire user Journey

rather than just right like uh uh more

bottom of funnel right or more top of

funnel

sorry so maybe maybe better

understanding of right like agile uh

development Pro uh practices right

product development how I could

interface uh and teach my team to

interface better with like the product

managers and leaders within our uh

company that's still something that I'm

you know learning more about right so

cuz like this is one of the things right

is as you scale as a

company um right in the beginning the

people build the products will be like

you know it might be the founders right

you're very on the front lines right so

it's very like easy to know and be

purposeful about you know what what of

the things that the community wants are

making it into the product and which of

the things are not making into it for

some like justification or some good

reason but eventually you have to build

a bridge between the new people working

on the product as you expand out your

team right to the community uh right now

this is something it's it's like uh the

founders still have to actually do a lot

of this right um and we have to be very

Hands-On uh how do you basically create

like product managers that can you know

almost do it do it themselves uh or how

do you create like information funnels

um because there there's going to be

more noise right it's easier in the

early days because Founders I think like

know how to do this kind of stuff uh

it's an part of our that's part of being

a Founder but also because the signal is

not as much right it's like like there

there there are less inputs right but

over time as you scale your team right

it's like the people building the

products on a day-to-day basis right are

not the founders and you're getting like

so many more like pieces of feedback

that need to somehow be distilled and

refined right and uh and fed to

them okay and would you

say how did you learn these

skills on the field

theoretical did you have

mentors I think by yeah trial and error

experimentation I would say maybe these

are things that I'm still not good

enough at um but yeah force of will

force of will and maybe acknowledge

right it's

like first you like the hardest part is

knowing right what you don't know right

um that's part part of even like fixing

the problem right is like knowing what

the problem is right if you know what

the problem is you can kind of ask

questions and throw people at it let's

talk to all the web 3 Founders that are

watching this right now out of the

thousands of skill sets that a human can

possess what would you say or the core

two to three that one needs to possess

to be a successful founder I don't look

for teams with well balanced Founders

right I I look for founding teams that

are well balanced but have like

unbalanced individuals

right I I think this is what you want

right so it's like you want across your

founding team to have someone who's like

great at like interfacing with the

community and understanding what they

want right and you want someone who is

an engineer I think May often good good

for the CEO to also be an engineer uh

because you need to it's

like you need to know like how difficult

things are going to be before you decide

to do them and build them right and a

and a lot of times in web3 that's like

how difficult is this thing that you

know we want to bet the company on how

difficult is this going to actually be

to build or code

right yeah I think you want to have

someone with like great business and

negotiation sense

right um and then I think you want to

have someone with like good aesthetic

sense um ideally good

aestheticthe or no sorry aesthetic right

like aesthetic like art design right uh

understood so I think like one of our

strengths is that we have a lot of uh

found uh co-founders for Sky Maus um we

have a lot right like I'm um one

of like five

right you're about to pull the math

equations behind you on that

board the so would you say a good

founder is a master of one or Jack of

all

traits yeah I think I don't think you I

don't think uh you want Jack of all

trades you want to have like a balanced

team but by having like a variety of

imbalanced individuals right and then

it's like yeah

like right engineering understanding

aesthetic understanding business sense

and then like hype and Community sense

right like let's say like you don't want

right anyone who has all four of those

but you want like you want like four

people right four to five people right

who are each have you know who are each

good at like two of those things

right okay Ronin is very product strong

you have an incredible product I

remember when I when I when I set up my

Ronin wallet the experience was so

smooth the email you can back it up it

was amazing would you say that a good

product with poor marketing would

outperform a poor product with good

marketing distribution is King right so

distribution right like uh a lesser

product can win um because of

distribution of course the product has

to be good enough but yeah I mean this

is something that people like probably

need to understand more in web 3 right

is

like why do people say that Community is

King in web 3 well because community is

your

distribution so if you like study

distribution right there are actually

like

25 buckets of distribution channels um

that traditional startups use in in web

2 Community is seen as just one of them

right there are web 2 startups that use

Community as a distribution Channel

Reddit for example is like the example

used in one of the books that I read

right that's actually probably why

Alexis Ohanian is an investor in Sky

Mavis and understands web 3

and but so in web 2 distribution a

community is just one of like many

distribution channels in web 3 Community

is the only distribution Channel that's

ever been proven to work it is community

is the distribution Channel and

Community amplifies all other strategies

right oh you're you're going fire on

socials right like your community is

going to be the one uh spreading that

and and making it work right um oh you

need a you have a referral program like

obviously right the the people using

this and spreading it out are going to

be the community

and yeah great play to earn right play

to earn tokens right these things only

work if your community are the first

initial users and they tell their

friends about it I think the cool thing

about our products are we're able to

make products that our core Community

loves so much that they bring their

friends and their family into it there

are many Ronin families many Ronin

couples

I don't see that happening on other

chains and I think somewhere in there

right like study that

that's behind our success steady

Ronin Community is the main distribution

Channel be so good I had to write it

down you spoke about Dynamic nfts how

much ahead of the trend you are one of

the big challenges I see a lot of

Founders that I speak with face is that

they spend way too long building their

product only to find that the market has

outpaced them and they are now outd

how does one remain competitive and up

to date with the latest trends that are

happening it's what is your information

diet this is something that uh someone

from my team from our team Bailey he's a

um head of run an ecosystem right he was

like he he once asked this to someone he

like what is your information diet and

that kind of stuck with me right um so

it's like I don't believe necessarily in

people

just being Geniuses and coming up with

crazy ideas I do think that it's being

exposed to the right ideas the right

people and then right you start to like

mix and match um so yeah you mentioned

right that the definition or like a way

to systematize Innovation is combine

things that have never been combined

before um so part of that right is like

oh what are you reading who are you

following right you see some cool idea

oh like Pac moon right like that was a

sick like airdrop distribution how do we

take what they did and apply that to

like the runin crater program right and

that's that's usually what it is like oh

friend friend pet right like oh they

they made like onchain tamagachi like

yeah they should not be like having any

Market uh that's our market right like

what what what are they doing that's

interesting that we can take and like

put an axi Twist on it right so those

those are some of the you know I don't I

don't know if we're going to do those

right but those are some of the things

that I've asked literally I have asked

those questions internally this week I

don't know if they'll come to something

you probably have to ask or like imagine

right it's like SL imagine right SL

imagine Pac moonrun and crater program

right would that work maybe not oh like

we found some reason that we shouldn't

do it right probably that will happen

right like these things only have like a

one or two% hit rate uh friend pet like

oh tamagachi like let's actually [ __ ]

build a tamagachi for axi right it's

like oh yeah uh we we talked to the Mark

we talked to the app. team we talked to

all the games teams like everyone uh

thinks this cool but uh you know we

don't think the risk or word is is is is

good enough right now right or maybe it

is right but I think that's how I've

seen uh traditionally um that happened

right is like the information diet where

did we the play idea for play to earn is

cuz like we were studying defi right we

were studying Unis swap back in 20 uh

2019 and 2020 when before you know and

first of all nobody was even building

web three games back then it's like

Austin three others which are all now

like out of business except for like

gods and chain like shout out to gods

and chain for their

persistence

um right but nobody right so it's like

you had to be there um you had to be in

the right position building a web three

game and then it's like your information

diet has to be like not obviously web

through gaming literally there there was

nobody in the space so it's like what

are where can we take ideas from where

can we pull ideas from where can we it's

like Ratatouille right like uh you know

like when he's like oh like what if I

freaking eat a strawberry and a cheese

at the same

time okay fascinating fascinating the

information Diet before we wrap up uh

Jos talking about Trends what would you

say is the future of play to

earn H so this is like a new this is a

topic

that's spreading again right

because play earn is working again play

earn is freaking back right people

didn't expect this people were like

crying even us we we had to kind of

downplay it during the bare market right

cuz you don't want to say that you know

you don't want to basically create these

expectations in a bare Market people are

going be like what the [ __ ] are you

talking about play to earn right the

market is going down right like I'm

earning like one uh I'm earning one cent

per week or something right like this is

this is [ __ ] right no it's like the

bull market is back like you know we

should not take ourselves so seriously

that we close ourselves off

from what's actually happening what

people actually want um so yeah play to

earn is play to earn is back and I I

think that's great news for people and

but obviously right like we'll need to

play with the model more right how can

we make it more fun more engaging yeah

even right dare I say more sustainable

right what are the different token syncs

that people would love to experiment

with you know one of the things that I

think is cool is like Cambria is

building on Cambria is kind of like

RuneScape dual Arena RuneScape dual

Arena was such an offensive sync for uh

in RuneScape that they had to take it

out of the game because people were

betting too much uh in RuneScape dual

Arena right so it's like you know can

there be right so RuneScape actually

already solved sustainability but they

actually choose to remove that huge gold

sink because it was like literally too

effective right um wow so yeah so I

think the future of play to earn is like

yeah what balanced the economy and

RuneScape and um EV on line right we

already have these play to earn

economies that have been live for 20

years and so let's bring some of the

best mechanics from there

right okay so topic inspiration from web

2 yeah but the thing is right these are

player I wouldn't call RuneScape and EV

on line web 2 I would call them freaking

right the the first player to earn games

the innovators they're the Pioneers

they're the ogs right like we have to

tip our cap to

them the the the the Giants on Whose

shoulders we're standing on right now I

mean uh you know I know uh Hilmar has

given us advice uh the founder of EV

online

um yeah I mean RuneScape right is like

RuneScape is just study

RuneScape steud RuneScape as a closing

note Jos this has been incredible what

is one piece of advice motivation

inspiration that you have for aspiring

Founders that hope to One Day become a

Founder like

OS you have to find co-founders like my

B biggest advice is like find

co-founders that you can trust and that

you want to work with because they're

going to become like your you know

they're they're going to become like

your best friends your the people that

you spend the most time with in the

world it's like almost choosing a spouse

right um if you if you don't do that I

think like a lot of business issues come

probably down to like co-founder uh

problems and I think a lot of our

success is because we have the right mix

like we hang out we even I lived with

them right like that's why in 2018 2019

actually went to go and live in Vietnam

um with you know for even see like oh is

this like some chemistry that could

could work for 20 years right um and so

I think like that's what I feel Most

Blessed about is right even though we've

gone through like a lot of hard times

right like I think because we have a

good co-founder dynamic in chemistry

like that's made it and I to be honest

like people are always like yo like how

do you how do you go through so much

crazy stuff but you know uh I owe it to

my co-founders um right to to the

founding team and and also my wife so

yeah pick the pick the right Founders

and pick the right uh significant

another beautiful beautiful Jos thank

you so much this has been an absolute

pleasure this is a lot of golden nuggets

I appreciate you Jos awesome man no

thanks for having me