Lessons from building a $1 billion market cap blockchain
Summary
TLDRThe video transcript features an in-depth conversation with Jos, the co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin, discussing the challenges and strategies of building a successful Web 3 gaming ecosystem. Key points include the importance of innovation in a rapidly evolving industry, the significance of community as a primary distribution channel, and the concept of 'play-to-earn' as a driver for user engagement and adoption. Jos emphasizes the necessity of having a strong co-founder dynamic, akin to a marriage, to sustain the business through tough times. He also touches on the evolution of NFTs and the potential for new business models within the gaming industry, suggesting that the future of play-to-earn lies in balancing economic sustainability with engaging game mechanics.
Takeaways
- 🚀 **Innovation and Resilience**: Axie Infinity and Ronin were forged by challenges, with the team becoming stronger after each adversity, akin to a Super Saiyan.
- 🎯 **Lack of Playbook**: There is no established playbook for building in the web3 gaming industry, necessitating innovation and first-principles thinking.
- 🌱 **Niche Dominance**: Starting small and niched, like dominating web3 gaming, can lead to expansion and broader impact, mirroring the growth strategies of major companies like Amazon and Google.
- 💡 **Cross-Disciplinary Inspiration**: The best ideas often come from combining concepts from different fields, such as biology, astronomy, and physics.
- 🔄 **Adaptability**: The ability to adapt and evolve is crucial, as seen in the transition from a single game to a dominant gaming chain and beyond.
- 🤝 **Community as Partners**: Engaging the community is vital, with members acting as partners in the co-creation process, significantly contributing to product direction and onboarding.
- 📈 **Sustainable Growth**: AXS has become a sustainable product within the crypto space, generating consistent revenue and user engagement.
- 🌟 **Dynamic NFTs**: Introducing dynamic NFTs that evolve with use is an innovative concept that could redefine digital collectibles.
- 📊 **Metrics and Models**: The business model for NFTs and digital collectibles is still emerging, with attention and community building being key in the early stages.
- 🧩 **Information Diet**: Staying competitive involves a curated information diet, learning from various sources, and adapting successful strategies from other industries or platforms.
- ⚖️ **Balanced Teams**: A successful founding team isn't made of well-rounded individuals but rather a balance of individuals with specific, strong skill sets.
Q & A
What is the biggest challenge faced by the co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin?
-The biggest challenge has been that there is no playbook for what they're doing, as they are building in a very new industry within a subset of that industry, web3 gaming. It's not just an execution problem but also an innovation question, requiring thinking from first principles and a cross-disciplinary approach.
How does the concept of 'play to earn' in Axie Infinity relate to real-world business models?
-The 'play to earn' concept was inspired by looking at real-world business models like Uber paying drivers when there were no riders. It's about creating new forms of value exchange that haven't been done before in the gaming and blockchain space.
What is the significance of community in the context of web3?
-Community is King in web3 because it serves as the primary distribution channel. It's not just about having a good product; the community's involvement is crucial for spreading the product and making it successful.
What is the current state of Axie Infinity in terms of monthly active users and revenue?
-Axie Infinity has around 180,000 monthly active users and generates approximately $200,000 a month in revenue.
How does the concept of Dynamic NFTs work in the context of Axie Infinity?
-Dynamic NFTs in Axie Infinity are digital collectibles that increase in value, power, and aesthetics the more they are used. They have on-chain levels that can be upgraded using experience points, representing an innovative approach to NFTs.
What is the future vision for Ronin as a blockchain?
-The plan for Ronin is to first dominate the gaming industry and then expand into other verticals like e-commerce and payments, aiming to fulfill the original dream of blockchain technology to democratize financial services.
What is the role of a growth team in the context of a startup?
-A growth team differs from a marketing team as it has a more significant impact on the product and covers the entire user journey, not just the bottom or top of the funnel. It involves understanding agile development practices and product development to interface effectively with product managers.
What are some of the key skills a founder should possess?
-A founder should have a strong understanding of engineering, business and negotiation, aesthetic sense, and community engagement. It's not about being a jack of all trades but having a balanced team with individuals who are highly skilled in specific areas.
How does the concept of 'distribution is King' apply to web3 products?
-In web3, community is the primary and most effective distribution channel. It is crucial for user adoption and can amplify all other strategies. A good product with poor marketing can outperform a poor product with good marketing due to the power of community-driven distribution.
What is the importance of an 'information diet' for founders?
-An information diet refers to the sources of information and ideas a founder consumes. It's important for staying up-to-date with trends, getting inspired, and innovating by combining new ideas from various fields.
What advice does Jos provide for aspiring founders?
-Jos advises aspiring founders to find co-founders they can trust and work well with, as they will become like family. He emphasizes the importance of having the right team dynamics and chemistry, which contributes significantly to the success of the venture.
Outlines
🚀 Founding Challenges and Innovation in Web 3 Gaming
The co-founder of Axie Infinity and Ronin discusses the significant challenges faced during the development of their platforms, emphasizing the lack of a playbook in a new and rapidly evolving industry. The summary highlights the importance of innovation, drawing from diverse fields, and the concept of becoming antifragile by overcoming near-death experiences. It also touches on the strategy of niching down in blockchain gaming and the potential for expansion into other verticals like e-commerce and payments.
🌱 Building a Self-Sustaining Ecosystem in Web 3
The paragraph delves into the self-sustaining nature of the Axie Infinity ecosystem, which generates a substantial monthly revenue and has a large user base. It explores the concept of 'play to earn' and the introduction of dynamic NFTs, which are digital collectibles that increase in value with use. The summary also discusses the potential for new business models and the importance of community in the Web 3 space.
🤝 The Role of Community and NFTs in Business Strategy
This section examines the role of community in the success of digital collectibles and NFTs. It describes how community engagement can foster a strong culture and how NFTs represent a form of debt that needs to be repaid with value. The summary also addresses the challenges founders may face in managing community expectations and the importance of viewing NFT holders as partners in the business.
📈 Growth, Leadership, and the Evolution of Axie Infinity
The founder reflects on the skills he wished he had three years ago, such as better project management and leading by inspiration. The summary outlines the evolution of the growth team at Axie Infinity and the importance of understanding agile development practices. It also discusses the challenge of scaling the company while maintaining a close connection with the community and the product.
🧩 Balancing Individual Strengths in a Founding Team
The paragraph emphasizes the importance of having a well-balanced founding team composed of individuals with complementary skills. The summary highlights the need for a mix of engineering, business acumen, aesthetic sense, and community engagement skills within the team. It also touches on the concept of a good founder being a master of one or a jack of all trades.
🌟 The Power of Community as a Distribution Channel
This section discusses the significance of community in Web 3 as the primary distribution channel. The summary explains how community involvement can amplify other strategies and is crucial for the success of referral programs and play-to-earn models. It also mentions the importance of creating products that the community loves enough to bring in new users.
📚 Staying Ahead of Trends with the Right Information Diet
The founder shares insights on how to remain competitive by having the right information diet, which involves being exposed to a variety of ideas and people. The summary explores the concept of combining ideas from different sources to innovate and the importance of being in the right position to apply these ideas to the product. It also discusses the resurgence of play-to-earn models and the need to adapt and experiment with different token syncs.
🎮 Learning from the Pioneers of Play-to-Earn Gaming
The paragraph draws inspiration from pioneering games like RuneScape and EV online, which have successfully implemented play-to-earn mechanics. The summary discusses the future of play-to-earn, focusing on balancing the economy and learning from these games. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging the contributions of these early innovators in the gaming industry.
🤝 Choosing the Right Co-founders for Startup Success
The founder shares advice for aspiring founders, emphasizing the importance of choosing the right co-founders who can be trusted and with whom one can build a strong, long-lasting relationship. The summary highlights the significance of co-founder dynamics in overcoming business challenges and the personal sacrifices made for the success of the venture.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Play to Earn
💡Web3
💡NFTs (Non-Fungible Tokens)
💡Community
💡Dynamic NFTs
💡Ronin Blockchain
💡Antifragile
💡Product-Market Fit
💡Distribution
💡Co-founder Dynamics
💡Information Diet
Highlights
Axi Infinity and Ronin have been through multiple bear markets and near-death experiences, but each time they come back stronger, embodying the concept of becoming antifragile.
There is no playbook for building in the new and niche web3 gaming industry, requiring innovation and thinking from first principles.
Axi Infinity generates around $200,000 a month with 180,000 monthly active users, making it a sustainable product in the crypto space.
Ronin is the second most used blockchain in the world with 1.2 million daily active users, positioning it as a market mover in web3 and the crypto space.
The biggest challenge is coming up with innovative ideas that have never been done before in the web3 gaming space.
Axi Infinity is exploring new concepts like Dynamic NFTs where the NFTs become more valuable and powerful the more they are used.
The business model for NFTs and digital collectibles is still being figured out, with NFTs seen as a form of debt that needs to be repaid to the community.
Community is the most important distribution channel in web3, amplifying all other strategies.
A good product with poor marketing can outperform a poor product with good marketing, as distribution is key.
Successful founding teams have well-balanced individuals with complementary skills like engineering, business, aesthetics, and community sense.
Axi Infinity is focusing on sustainable growth and introducing new concepts like play-to-earn, even in a bear market.
Play-to-earn is making a comeback as the bull market returns, with Axi Infinity looking to make it more fun, engaging and sustainable.
Studying successful play-to-earn economies from web2 games like RuneScape can provide insights for the future of play-to-earn in web3.
Axi Infinity is exploring innovative ideas like on-chain Tamagotchi and airdrop distributions to stay ahead of the curve.
The key to Axi Infinity's success is the strong co-founder dynamic and chemistry, akin to choosing a spouse.
Axi Infinity is focused on building a self-sustaining ecosystem by leveraging its strong community and user base.
Transcripts
through the years as you were building
axi have been building Ronin what has
been the biggest challenges that you
have faced as a co-founder axi has
around 180,000 monthly active users it
generates around $200,000 a month it's
doing well we need to reintroduce some
crazy Concepts right how would you
justify for some of the founders that
are watching this that want to
revolutionize the future of this
industry like you are you need to do it
carefully anything you do in this space
will come with expectations anything you
do as an entrepreneur will come with
expectations right don't recommend doing
this if you have a thin skin would you
say that a good product with poor
marketing would outperform a poor
product with good marketing distribution
is King right a lesser product can win
because of distribution why do people
say that Community is King in web 3 well
because Community is your distribution
so would you say a good founder is a
master of one or Jack of all traits so
hey Jos my man it's great to have you
here you are the founder or the
co-founder I will say of axi infinity
and Ronin
Ronan is the second most used blockchain
in the world according to a tweet made
by Ronan
today and you have about 1.2 million
daily active users
in your ecosystem to say that you guys
are Market Movers to say that you are a
Jugger note in the web3 the nft and the
crypto space would be an
understatement but Jos I have a question
for you often times s the biggest tree
in the forest has lived through the most
storms so my question for you is through
the years as you were building axi as
were you have been building Ronin what
has been the biggest challenges that you
have faced as a co-founder along the
journey yeah I mean I think it's clear I
think many people will be familiar with
the fact that axi and Ronin we were
forged by fire right we've been through
through multiple bare markets we've been
through multiple near-death experiences
right like I kind of think of us as a
Super Saiyan or a saian right every time
we almost die we come back stronger
that's a feature not a bug right um
becoming
antifragile um part that's part of the
process right so I think the biggest
challenge has
been that there is no playbook for what
we're doing and we're
at we're building in an industry that is
very new and we're building within a
subset of that
industry web 3 gaming MH right that is
quite small there aren't many right
success stories or success cases so a
lot of the things it's not just like an
execution problem right or a resilience
or
a willpower thing it's also an
innovation question right like how do
you come up with ideas that have never
been done before so you really have to
think from first principles I think
or have a cross-disciplinary approach
where you're like hey this is something
that worked over there right like so
play to earn where is what is play to
earn inspired by if play to earn did ex
didn't exist it was inspired by looking
at things like uber Uber paying drivers
uh when there were no Riders um right so
you you have to like look all across the
startup space um even into biology other
in right like biology astronomy physics
for ideas because the there is nothing
to look at in the space especially in
the early days right it's gotten earlier
so I would say that's the biggest
challenge right is like that there is
no right like how can you teach
something or how can you know what to do
if uh it's a totally new
industry and it's it's interesting you
say that I heard it somewhere that
Innovation is when you take two things
that were never seen together you find a
way to put them together for the first
time for you and Ronan would you say
that niching down going sub Nitch not
only blockchain but blockchain gaming
and being the dominant chain for that do
you think that facilitated in your
process of becoming antifragile
navigating the storms as they came and
they've gone and was that for you a
thoughtful process that we are going to
Niche down and this is the niche we're
going to
dominate or do you intend on breaching
out eventually from that
Niche so the biggest businesses right
they always start super small and then
expand out right this is common startup
industry knowledge Amazon started as an
online bookstore Google just a search
engine right so our plan is to dominate
gaming right first it was like let's be
the number one most used game right then
we can roll that in right we we already
see us expanding out right first we were
just one game Maxi Infinity boom we use
that as distribution and go to market
for the infrastructure boom We expand
out now we have like the dominant gaming
chain so we have all the we have the
users aggregated the thing that web 3 is
missing is user adoption by everyday
people and so now that we have this
right we uh Shore up this Monopoly right
of uh of gaming adoption and then what
is the next vertical that you can expand
into right there are a lot e-commerce
payments right to actually fulfill the
original Dream of this industry right
was to democratize financial services
democratize the ability to transfer
money to anyone anywhere in the world
you you now start to like disrupt things
like Western Union right uh with
uh you know uh money transfers like that
you start to disrupt things like credit
card companies right uh have you ever
tried to use like an American Express
card like in most parts of the world
they don't even take American Express
because it's like a almost a four 2 and
a half% plus fee right imagine if it was
just 0 2% um that's those are these are
some of the right like business
opportunities that open up and this is
also like one of the things that
prevents people from competing in the
space and like prevents people from
being able to even comprehend what we're
doing because what if gaming is not
necessarily where you make the money
right uh people were like oh play to
earn web three gaming needs to be
sustainable right they keep thinking
about like applying web to and
Antiquated models of monetization onto a
new industry right so it's like why
should why should the individual games
themselves even need to be sustainable
if the thing that you're building is
this huge Network and you can monetize
on like right e-commerce payments things
like that right Uber is maybe even a
good example right like people were like
ah Uber like I had a lot of friends who
worked at Uber and they went through
like similar haters they had mad haters
right like Travis had haters the
business model had
haters and people are like ah Uber is
losing money Uber is spending money it's
not sustainable right but then it's like
no they just moved in they had Uber Eats
and now they're actually printing money
right they just had their first
profitable uh year so you know I can say
all these things literally people will
you know not not do it so I don't I
don't feel like I don't I don't and they
they're not no one is in the position
right to even be able to do it right so
I I feel okay just kind of just being
out here telling people how how we think
about the potential strategy long term
and because I I do believe that we're
the only ones in the position uh to
execute this because we do have right we
have the people we have the gamers on
our side we have uh we have we have the
users wow what a point what a point
losing on the front end with a product
that might not be profitable so you can
win on the back end with these customers
now that they're in your
ecosystem can we dive a little bit
deeper one layer deeper into that how
does that look like for axi or for an
ecosystem like that of ronin you have
multiple games you have millions of
users to the extent that you can share
your onboarding processes play to earn
but how is it
that you've built an ecosystem that is
self- sustaining or on the path to that
yeah I mean so axi is actually too
boring and too sustainable right now axi
generates around
$200,000 uh a month uh in in Revenue um
with um it's was one of the most boring
and sustainable products in all of
crypto it went from being right the face
of play to earn lots of people screaming
and whining and and uh and uh scar uh
being scared about it to now being like
one of the most boring sustainable
products in crypto I think it's too
boring sustainable for this bare Market
which is like I think like people are
kind of like what's going on with axi
right axi has around 180,000 monthly
active uh users it generates around
$200,000 a month um it's doing pretty
well um it is right it's it's it's it's
doing well but I I think that we need to
reintroduce some crazy Concepts right so
I just tweeted yesterday right like
would you play AI if you could earn a
kilo of rice per week by just playing 10
10 minutes per day and people seemed
really interested in that right like can
we test out some basic income uh
experiments can we really bring back
play to earn um so these are these are
some of the things that I'm thinking
about with axi of
course the games are going to continue
to get better the IP needs to be
developed we're going to experiment with
different web 3 mechanics right we just
actually introduced Dynamic nfts uh
through axi this is a idea that's ahead
of its time it's too good for the
current market uh it's basically the
idea that right Axis are becoming
digital Collectibles
that get more valuable get more powerful
get more beautiful the more you use them
right so basically axis now have onchain
level lels and you can actually upgrade
their appearance uh how strong they are
uh based on their onchain levels right
and you actually need experience points
to increase their onchain levels this is
this idea is too good for the current
market uh eventually I think it this
will be the standard within uh nft
collections but right now it's uh it's
too Innovative uh and it might just not
have had right the right
uh push or the right circumstances right
like we actually cre play to
earn um and made the first uh ex-human
one of our community members made the
first Unis swap SLP pool back in 2020
took about 10 to 10 to 14 months for
play to earn to really take off right so
I think Dynamic nft is going to be a
thing I think that we're leading the
space uh when it comes to Dynamic nfts
yeah
and the the right conditions have uh
just not necessarily like
percolated to to really have it Go
exponential but people are spending
around $20,000 a week upgrading their
axes right so when you think about like
new interesting business models this is
it right like most nft collections they
have to rely on mints or Creator
royalties uh this is more like a
subscription right uh people are
basically paying uh AXS um access tokens
right to uh for the right to upgrade
their axes right alongside right like
different gameplay requirements so
um those are yeah those are some of the
things I'm thinking about with ax here
right now interesting
fascinating there's there's so many
angles we can take from
here you mentioned the word business
model which was very good one of the the
the issues that we with this industry
that we're in is that we're still trying
to figure ourselves out we're in that
stage of the internet back 20 20 over 20
years years ago when there was a lot of
startups a lot of companies and a lot of
speculation but there was not a proven
blueprint that people could replicate
and businesses could come in and inject
large liquidity to build on top of on
board their existing customers and build
on top of you mentioned business model
what does the way you see from a
theoretical perspective what does the
business model of digital Collectibles
as we call nfts what does that look
like the way you see it I I would would
say that this is
uh this is something that has not really
been figured out um by by the industry
but here are some of the things that we
probably know about digital Collectibles
right and nfts they are great for
bootstrapping attention they're great
for forming an early
Community they are seen as a form of
debt where if you issue
nfts there is an expectation right that
you they PE that the people who buy them
or earn them get some sort of value in
return that could be monetary value
right that could be social status that
could be fun and
enjoyment uh but the means in which you
repay that debt in quotation marks as a
Founder is actually what creates culture
this is what I believe so people are
like why would I why would I you know be
beholden to these holders why would I
cave to their to their needy demands but
no I actually believe that right
by having that relationship that
interplay that exchange of value that's
actually how you create culture and
right it's building blocks right cuz we
don't necessarily need to have a very
sustainable boring business right now
it's the birth of the industry right
it's it's like someone once told me if
your VC is asking you your seed round
even your seed series a about your
business model like run from that VC
right because the thing that you're
trying to do is get product Market fit
and or traction attention right we call
it the attention economy now right it's
like right now we're just like figuring
out how to bootstrap attention how to
bootstrap people using the
technology this you know the boring uh
the boring stuff I think we'll we'll get
figured out later and but so those are
some of my thoughts right around nfts
around digital Collectibles about why
how we use
them and and yeah you know it's it's a
weird it's kind of a weird thing I see
them a little bit in terms of right like
debt or expectations right you you you
create them and then people have all
these
expectations um and some Founders
crumble at that and they're like I'm not
going to do it I'm I cannot deal with
having all these
people uh wanting something for me I'm
used to want people wanting
things for me all my life uh so I think
we're all okay with it right and then
it's like you know how do you yeah you
basically can create that culture and
that culture uh you know can be used to
bootstrap other things right but it's
not perfect right like we have you know
these very hard questions right like oh
right should the origin axis and the
original axis should they like go up
more than AXS or Ron right um are they a
similar asset class or are they
different
and these are all really hard things uh
but we have some experiments cooking
right for example imagine
if rather than staking your
nft right to get tokens what if holding
an nft that is like high status right
like a Mystic axi Like An Origin axi
acted as a staking modifier right so
then it's like if you're staking uh
you're staking you're staking a pool
your your rewards are not just like
right dependent
on um your amount right it's also like
dependent on some of the markers of
reputation that you have in the
ecosystem with these digital
Collectibles right being one of those
inputs okay the three points you made
which are a brand emitting nfts will
achieve three things the first one you
can bootstrap attention you can foster
stronger Community spirit
and number three they are seen as a form
of debt that you have to repay to your
community if we are to dance a little
bit around that idea together how would
you justify for some of the founders
that are watching this that want to
build that want to revolutionize the
future of this industry like you are
today how would you justify them taking
on the cost of community which is often
times seen as a liability after they
launch their nft you need to do it
carefully but if you don't launch
something of value right either a token
right an
nft every anything you do in this space
will come with expectations anything you
do as an entrepreneur will come with
expectations right it's not just right
it's it's not in the in the past that
would be like your friends your family
the people around you your investors
right now this is more this is way more
vulnerable of a thing because you're
building in public it takes a special
type of person I don't recommend doing
this if you have a thin skin if you're
afraid of what people think of you if
you're afraid of people wanting stuff
from you this is not for you right uh
some people thrive on that though some
people love to
deliver um and some people have been
waiting their entire lives to build a
product that people care about so much
they care too much right that's one of
the things about nft is people care
literally sometimes too much right
they're like yelling at you but they're
right it's like don't run away from that
right don't ban those people right it's
like meet that with wow like I really
feel so honored that you feel this
strongly about this
right like the number one thing that
right is like the number one thing that
you want to avoid is indifference right
like people not caring right it's like
on the extremes right like that's right
like you want to have like some intense
love and some intense hate these are non
one of the things that's right like
before we had NFS crypto was so freaking
boring there was no emotion right now
like with nfts there's almost too much
emotion
right very interesting very interesting
it's funny when you say the last thing
you want is people being indifferent I
think it was uh Warren Buffett he
said good press bad press the only thing
you never want is someone mispronouncing
your name is
someone completely forgetting about your
brand and like you said with passion you
get the two sides you get the ups and
the Downs that comes with a passionate
Community behind
you Jus would you see commun nft nft
holders would you see them more as
shareholders or
customers it's a new form of
relationship between the founders and uh
the people in the community right it's
like it's a new asset class it's a new
form of a relationship right um so I
don't I don't see them as either um I
would see them as right Partners or
co-build right we're co-creating what
are the things that we're doing we're
co-creating together we're building
together um they're very intimately
involved in right the process of
building out your product um of
spreading your product um right they're
they are doing things right they're
helping to shap to product Direction
they're helping to onboard uh people
into the community right like 70% of
people at least in our ecosystem or
sorry 40% of people in our ecosystem
were onboarded by a friend or family
member very very important right um that
and that's actually right just around
the same amount that's onboarded via
Twitter Facebook twitch YouTube right so
we talk a lot about creators but
actually a lot of the onboarding is done
by the everyday community members that
you might not even create consider a
Creator
right um so it's a special relationship
I don't know I see our right I see our
community members as a lot of them from
the early days they're my they're just
my friends right like people I think
sometimes used to find that hard to
comprehend they're like how do you know
how do you know like what these people
think it's like well I'm I'm talking to
them I even live near some of them live
with some of them at at certain points
so okay okay Partners what is when skill
you wished you
had 3 years ago maybe better like
project management uh uh skills and my
way of leading right is like I don't
know I like to lead by inspiration lead
by
example
um oh sometimes I feel like uh
yeah May that that's maybe something
that that could have helped right is
like you know uh that's something that I
had to go get better at right is like
like you know how do we actually go from
great idea um and or an energetic team
right to like okay it's actually
happening that that that's maybe one
thing uh maybe you know
I so I I lead the growth team right and
a growth team how does that differ from
a marketing team it's right you can have
like more effect on the product right
they basically the entire user Journey
rather than just right like uh uh more
bottom of funnel right or more top of
funnel
sorry so maybe maybe better
understanding of right like agile uh
development Pro uh practices right
product development how I could
interface uh and teach my team to
interface better with like the product
managers and leaders within our uh
company that's still something that I'm
you know learning more about right so
cuz like this is one of the things right
is as you scale as a
company um right in the beginning the
people build the products will be like
you know it might be the founders right
you're very on the front lines right so
it's very like easy to know and be
purposeful about you know what what of
the things that the community wants are
making it into the product and which of
the things are not making into it for
some like justification or some good
reason but eventually you have to build
a bridge between the new people working
on the product as you expand out your
team right to the community uh right now
this is something it's it's like uh the
founders still have to actually do a lot
of this right um and we have to be very
Hands-On uh how do you basically create
like product managers that can you know
almost do it do it themselves uh or how
do you create like information funnels
um because there there's going to be
more noise right it's easier in the
early days because Founders I think like
know how to do this kind of stuff uh
it's an part of our that's part of being
a Founder but also because the signal is
not as much right it's like like there
there there are less inputs right but
over time as you scale your team right
it's like the people building the
products on a day-to-day basis right are
not the founders and you're getting like
so many more like pieces of feedback
that need to somehow be distilled and
refined right and uh and fed to
them okay and would you
say how did you learn these
skills on the field
theoretical did you have
mentors I think by yeah trial and error
experimentation I would say maybe these
are things that I'm still not good
enough at um but yeah force of will
force of will and maybe acknowledge
right it's
like first you like the hardest part is
knowing right what you don't know right
um that's part part of even like fixing
the problem right is like knowing what
the problem is right if you know what
the problem is you can kind of ask
questions and throw people at it let's
talk to all the web 3 Founders that are
watching this right now out of the
thousands of skill sets that a human can
possess what would you say or the core
two to three that one needs to possess
to be a successful founder I don't look
for teams with well balanced Founders
right I I look for founding teams that
are well balanced but have like
unbalanced individuals
right I I think this is what you want
right so it's like you want across your
founding team to have someone who's like
great at like interfacing with the
community and understanding what they
want right and you want someone who is
an engineer I think May often good good
for the CEO to also be an engineer uh
because you need to it's
like you need to know like how difficult
things are going to be before you decide
to do them and build them right and a
and a lot of times in web3 that's like
how difficult is this thing that you
know we want to bet the company on how
difficult is this going to actually be
to build or code
right yeah I think you want to have
someone with like great business and
negotiation sense
right um and then I think you want to
have someone with like good aesthetic
sense um ideally good
aestheticthe or no sorry aesthetic right
like aesthetic like art design right uh
understood so I think like one of our
strengths is that we have a lot of uh
found uh co-founders for Sky Maus um we
have a lot right like I'm um one
of like five
right you're about to pull the math
equations behind you on that
board the so would you say a good
founder is a master of one or Jack of
all
traits yeah I think I don't think you I
don't think uh you want Jack of all
trades you want to have like a balanced
team but by having like a variety of
imbalanced individuals right and then
it's like yeah
like right engineering understanding
aesthetic understanding business sense
and then like hype and Community sense
right like let's say like you don't want
right anyone who has all four of those
but you want like you want like four
people right four to five people right
who are each have you know who are each
good at like two of those things
right okay Ronin is very product strong
you have an incredible product I
remember when I when I when I set up my
Ronin wallet the experience was so
smooth the email you can back it up it
was amazing would you say that a good
product with poor marketing would
outperform a poor product with good
marketing distribution is King right so
distribution right like uh a lesser
product can win um because of
distribution of course the product has
to be good enough but yeah I mean this
is something that people like probably
need to understand more in web 3 right
is
like why do people say that Community is
King in web 3 well because community is
your
distribution so if you like study
distribution right there are actually
like
25 buckets of distribution channels um
that traditional startups use in in web
2 Community is seen as just one of them
right there are web 2 startups that use
Community as a distribution Channel
Reddit for example is like the example
used in one of the books that I read
right that's actually probably why
Alexis Ohanian is an investor in Sky
Mavis and understands web 3
and but so in web 2 distribution a
community is just one of like many
distribution channels in web 3 Community
is the only distribution Channel that's
ever been proven to work it is community
is the distribution Channel and
Community amplifies all other strategies
right oh you're you're going fire on
socials right like your community is
going to be the one uh spreading that
and and making it work right um oh you
need a you have a referral program like
obviously right the the people using
this and spreading it out are going to
be the community
and yeah great play to earn right play
to earn tokens right these things only
work if your community are the first
initial users and they tell their
friends about it I think the cool thing
about our products are we're able to
make products that our core Community
loves so much that they bring their
friends and their family into it there
are many Ronin families many Ronin
couples
I don't see that happening on other
chains and I think somewhere in there
right like study that
that's behind our success steady
Ronin Community is the main distribution
Channel be so good I had to write it
down you spoke about Dynamic nfts how
much ahead of the trend you are one of
the big challenges I see a lot of
Founders that I speak with face is that
they spend way too long building their
product only to find that the market has
outpaced them and they are now outd
how does one remain competitive and up
to date with the latest trends that are
happening it's what is your information
diet this is something that uh someone
from my team from our team Bailey he's a
um head of run an ecosystem right he was
like he he once asked this to someone he
like what is your information diet and
that kind of stuck with me right um so
it's like I don't believe necessarily in
people
just being Geniuses and coming up with
crazy ideas I do think that it's being
exposed to the right ideas the right
people and then right you start to like
mix and match um so yeah you mentioned
right that the definition or like a way
to systematize Innovation is combine
things that have never been combined
before um so part of that right is like
oh what are you reading who are you
following right you see some cool idea
oh like Pac moon right like that was a
sick like airdrop distribution how do we
take what they did and apply that to
like the runin crater program right and
that's that's usually what it is like oh
friend friend pet right like oh they
they made like onchain tamagachi like
yeah they should not be like having any
Market uh that's our market right like
what what what are they doing that's
interesting that we can take and like
put an axi Twist on it right so those
those are some of the you know I don't I
don't know if we're going to do those
right but those are some of the things
that I've asked literally I have asked
those questions internally this week I
don't know if they'll come to something
you probably have to ask or like imagine
right it's like SL imagine right SL
imagine Pac moonrun and crater program
right would that work maybe not oh like
we found some reason that we shouldn't
do it right probably that will happen
right like these things only have like a
one or two% hit rate uh friend pet like
oh tamagachi like let's actually [ __ ]
build a tamagachi for axi right it's
like oh yeah uh we we talked to the Mark
we talked to the app. team we talked to
all the games teams like everyone uh
thinks this cool but uh you know we
don't think the risk or word is is is is
good enough right now right or maybe it
is right but I think that's how I've
seen uh traditionally um that happened
right is like the information diet where
did we the play idea for play to earn is
cuz like we were studying defi right we
were studying Unis swap back in 20 uh
2019 and 2020 when before you know and
first of all nobody was even building
web three games back then it's like
Austin three others which are all now
like out of business except for like
gods and chain like shout out to gods
and chain for their
persistence
um right but nobody right so it's like
you had to be there um you had to be in
the right position building a web three
game and then it's like your information
diet has to be like not obviously web
through gaming literally there there was
nobody in the space so it's like what
are where can we take ideas from where
can we pull ideas from where can we it's
like Ratatouille right like uh you know
like when he's like oh like what if I
freaking eat a strawberry and a cheese
at the same
time okay fascinating fascinating the
information Diet before we wrap up uh
Jos talking about Trends what would you
say is the future of play to
earn H so this is like a new this is a
topic
that's spreading again right
because play earn is working again play
earn is freaking back right people
didn't expect this people were like
crying even us we we had to kind of
downplay it during the bare market right
cuz you don't want to say that you know
you don't want to basically create these
expectations in a bare Market people are
going be like what the [ __ ] are you
talking about play to earn right the
market is going down right like I'm
earning like one uh I'm earning one cent
per week or something right like this is
this is [ __ ] right no it's like the
bull market is back like you know we
should not take ourselves so seriously
that we close ourselves off
from what's actually happening what
people actually want um so yeah play to
earn is play to earn is back and I I
think that's great news for people and
but obviously right like we'll need to
play with the model more right how can
we make it more fun more engaging yeah
even right dare I say more sustainable
right what are the different token syncs
that people would love to experiment
with you know one of the things that I
think is cool is like Cambria is
building on Cambria is kind of like
RuneScape dual Arena RuneScape dual
Arena was such an offensive sync for uh
in RuneScape that they had to take it
out of the game because people were
betting too much uh in RuneScape dual
Arena right so it's like you know can
there be right so RuneScape actually
already solved sustainability but they
actually choose to remove that huge gold
sink because it was like literally too
effective right um wow so yeah so I
think the future of play to earn is like
yeah what balanced the economy and
RuneScape and um EV on line right we
already have these play to earn
economies that have been live for 20
years and so let's bring some of the
best mechanics from there
right okay so topic inspiration from web
2 yeah but the thing is right these are
player I wouldn't call RuneScape and EV
on line web 2 I would call them freaking
right the the first player to earn games
the innovators they're the Pioneers
they're the ogs right like we have to
tip our cap to
them the the the the Giants on Whose
shoulders we're standing on right now I
mean uh you know I know uh Hilmar has
given us advice uh the founder of EV
online
um yeah I mean RuneScape right is like
RuneScape is just study
RuneScape steud RuneScape as a closing
note Jos this has been incredible what
is one piece of advice motivation
inspiration that you have for aspiring
Founders that hope to One Day become a
Founder like
OS you have to find co-founders like my
B biggest advice is like find
co-founders that you can trust and that
you want to work with because they're
going to become like your you know
they're they're going to become like
your best friends your the people that
you spend the most time with in the
world it's like almost choosing a spouse
right um if you if you don't do that I
think like a lot of business issues come
probably down to like co-founder uh
problems and I think a lot of our
success is because we have the right mix
like we hang out we even I lived with
them right like that's why in 2018 2019
actually went to go and live in Vietnam
um with you know for even see like oh is
this like some chemistry that could
could work for 20 years right um and so
I think like that's what I feel Most
Blessed about is right even though we've
gone through like a lot of hard times
right like I think because we have a
good co-founder dynamic in chemistry
like that's made it and I to be honest
like people are always like yo like how
do you how do you go through so much
crazy stuff but you know uh I owe it to
my co-founders um right to to the
founding team and and also my wife so
yeah pick the pick the right Founders
and pick the right uh significant
another beautiful beautiful Jos thank
you so much this has been an absolute
pleasure this is a lot of golden nuggets
I appreciate you Jos awesome man no
thanks for having me
5.0 / 5 (0 votes)