139. Flow State: How to Sink In, Pay Attention, and Increase Focus by Tapping into Uncertainty

Summary

In this episode of 'Think Fast, Talk Smart' podcast, host Matt Abrahams discusses the concept of 'flow' with David Melnikoff, an assistant professor at Stanford GSB. Melnikoff explains that flow is a state of deep immersion in an activity, which can enhance performance and well-being. Contrary to common advice, he suggests that flow isn't about finding the 'Goldilocks zone' of challenge but rather engaging in activities that reduce uncertainty about the future. The conversation explores how to cultivate flow in personal and professional settings, emphasizing the importance of trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity in communication to facilitate flow.

Takeaways

• 🌀 The concept of 'flow' is described as a state of complete immersion and engagement in an activity, where one is so absorbed that they lose track of time and external surroundings.
• 🎯 Flow is often associated with improved performance in the task at hand and has positive effects on mental health and well-being, contributing to overall happiness.
• 🔄 Contrary to common advice, the key to achieving flow may not be an optimal level of challenge but rather engaging in activities that reduce uncertainty about the future.
• 🎰 The example of a slot machine illustrates how even simple activities can induce flow by drastically reducing uncertainty about possible outcomes after an action is taken.
• 🤔 The speaker's research challenges the idea that moderate levels of challenge are necessary for flow, suggesting that the elimination of possible futures is more crucial.
• 💡 To cultivate flow, one should seek activities or goal framings that maximize uncertainty, providing ample opportunity for uncertainty reduction through action.
• 🏆 In a business context, setting goals with varying levels of outcomes can increase uncertainty and, consequently, the potential for flow among participants.
• 🤝 Effective communication can contribute to flow by reducing uncertainty through trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity.
• 🤓 The speaker personally uses a simple but uncertain activity—throwing markers into a recycling bin—to reset and refocus the mind, highlighting the practical application of flow in daily life.
• 🗣️ The importance of trustworthiness in communication is emphasized, as it is essential for reducing uncertainty and fostering flow during conversations.
• 🎓 The speaker admires Laurie Santos for her ability to communicate complex psychological concepts clearly and trustworthily to the public.

Q & A

What is the concept of 'flow' as discussed in the podcast?

Flow is a state of being completely immersed and engaged in an activity to the point where one loses track of time and is not consciously exerting effort to continue. It's often associated with activities that one finds enjoyable or fulfilling.

What are the benefits of experiencing flow according to the podcast?

Experiencing flow can lead to better performance in the task at hand and also has positive effects on mental health and well-being. People who experience more flow tend to be happier in their daily lives.

What is the traditional advice on how to achieve flow, and why does the guest's research suggest it might be incorrect?

Traditional advice suggests that achieving flow requires an optimal level of challenge — not too difficult to be frustrating, but not too easy to be boring. However, the guest's research indicates that this is not the case, as even simple activities like playing slot machines can induce flow due to the reduction of uncertainty.

How does the guest's research redefine the source of flow?

The guest's research suggests that the source of flow is not an optimal level of challenge but rather engaging in an activity that reduces uncertainty about the future, ideally eliminating all possible future outcomes except for one.

Can you provide an example from the podcast of how uncertainty reduction can induce flow?

An example given in the podcast is playing a slot machine. Before pulling the lever, there are many possible financial outcomes, creating uncertainty. Once the lever is pulled and the symbols appear, the uncertainty is eliminated, reducing many possible futures to one, which can induce a flow state.

How can the principles of flow be applied in a business context, such as in running meetings or setting goals?

In a business context, the principles of flow can be applied by considering the amount of uncertainty associated with the goals assigned to individuals. Framing goals in a way that reduces uncertainty can help induce flow, leading to better performance and engagement.

What is the counterintuitive advice given in the podcast regarding the management of uncertainty in goal setting?

The counterintuitive advice is to leverage uncertainty rather than eliminate it. Instead of setting goals that are easily attainable and have no uncertainty about their achievement, it's suggested to find a balance where there is some uncertainty about the outcome, which can motivate individuals to work towards reducing that uncertainty.

How does the guest recommend using streaks as a tool to induce flow, and when might it be more effective than other goal framing methods?

Streaks can be a potent source of flow when the activity is something the individual is already good at, as the length of the streak is uncertain. However, for those who are not as skilled, focusing on the fewest number of misses before the first success might be more effective, as this outcome is more uncertain.

What role does communication play in inducing a flow state, and what are the key components of effective communication in this context?

Communication plays a significant role in inducing flow by reducing uncertainty associated with a goal or task. The key components of effective communication in this context are trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity, which help in reducing uncertainty and thus promoting flow.

How does the guest suggest using the concept of uncertainty in communication to enhance flow?

The guest suggests that by providing feedback or information that reduces uncertainty, one can enhance flow during communication. This involves being trustworthy, clear, and specific in the communication to ensure that the recipient can reduce their uncertainty about the topic being discussed.

What is the guest's personal method for entering a flow state when facing a mental rut or needing a mental reset?

The guest shares a personal method of throwing markers into a recycling bin to achieve a flow state. This simple yet challenging activity allows him to focus and achieve a mental reset, which can then help him return to his writing with a fresh perspective.

What communicator does the guest admire and why, as mentioned in the podcast?

The guest admires Laurie Santos for her ability to communicate clearly, compellingly, and with trustworthiness. Laurie Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale and the host of The Happiness Lab podcast, known for her accurate and evidence-based communication.

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe, according to the guest?

According to the guest, the first three ingredients for successful communication are trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity. These elements are essential for effective communication that can lead to a flow state.

Outlines

00:00

🎧 Introduction to Flow and Podcast Theme

Matt Abrahams introduces the concept of 'flow' as a state of complete immersion in an activity, where time and surroundings are forgotten. He welcomes David Melnikoff, an assistant professor at Stanford GSB, to discuss flow in depth. The podcast aims to explore how people can achieve their goals, with a focus on the flow state and its benefits for performance and well-being.

05:00

🎯 Understanding Flow and Its Impact on Goals

David Melnikoff explains that flow is a state of deep engagement where effort and self-control are not needed to continue an activity but rather to stop it. He contrasts this with the typical pursuit of goals, which requires constant effort. Flow not only enhances performance but also contributes to mental health and happiness. The conversation touches on the personal experiences of both hosts with flow, particularly in the context of public speaking and video gaming.

10:01

🧩 The Misconception of Challenge in Flow

Contrary to common advice, David's research suggests that achieving flow is not about finding an optimal level of challenge. Instead, it's about engaging in activities that reduce uncertainty about the future. He uses the example of slot machines to illustrate how even simple activities can induce flow by eliminating uncertainty after an action is taken.

15:03

🤝 Applying Flow Principles in Business and Communication

The discussion moves to the application of flow in business, particularly in goal setting and communication. David suggests that framing goals to create uncertainty can induce flow, leading to better performance. The conversation also explores the role of trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity in communication to reduce uncertainty and foster flow.

20:04

🤔 Distinctions Between Ambiguity and Uncertainty

David addresses the difference between ambiguity and uncertainty, explaining that ambiguity can be a source of uncertainty in communication. He discusses the intentional use of ambiguity in various social contexts and its potential to increase uncertainty, which can be counterproductive to achieving flow.

🏆 Embracing Uncertainty in Goal Setting

The conversation concludes with advice on setting goals that embrace uncertainty to induce flow. David emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between attainability and uncertainty to motivate and engage individuals in their goal pursuit. He also shares personal tactics for explaining complex concepts and the importance of remembering the confusion that precedes understanding.

🎉 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Matt wraps up the podcast by highlighting the value of incorporating flow into one's life for better goal achievement. He thanks David for his insights and invites listeners to explore related episodes on goals and goal attainment. The episode credits the production team and encourages listeners to follow the podcast on social media platforms.

Keywords

💡Flow

Flow is a psychological state of complete immersion and engagement in an activity. It is characterized by a loss of self-consciousness and a sense of energized focus. In the video, flow is the central theme, discussed as a state that can enhance performance and well-being. The example of playing a video game and losing track of time illustrates the concept of flow.

💡Strategic Communication

Strategic communication refers to the purposeful and well-planned process of conveying information to achieve specific goals. Matt Abrahams, the host, teaches this at Stanford Graduate School of Business. It is relevant to the video as the concept of flow can be applied to enhance communication effectiveness.

💡Organizational Behavior

Organizational behavior is the study of how individuals and groups interact within an organization. David Melnikoff, the guest, is an assistant professor in this field at Stanford GSB. His research into flow is connected to how people pursue and achieve goals within organizational contexts.

💡Goal Pursuit

Goal pursuit refers to the process of striving to achieve a specific aim or objective. The video discusses how flow can be beneficial in goal pursuit, as it can make the process less effortful and more enjoyable. The concept is explored in the context of public speaking and video gaming.

💡Uncertainty Reduction

Uncertainty reduction is a theory that suggests people engage in communication to decrease uncertainty about others or situations. In the video, it is suggested that engaging in activities that reduce uncertainty can induce a state of flow, as seen in the slot machine example where the outcome is uncertain until the lever is pulled.

💡Mental Health

Mental health refers to the state of an individual's psychological and emotional well-being. The video mentions that experiencing flow has benefits for mental health, contributing to happiness and reducing anxiety, such as when managing public speaking anxiety.

💡Streaks

Streaks, in the context of the video, refer to a series of consecutive successes in an activity. They are used to illustrate how uncertainty can be leveraged to induce flow. For instance, the discussion about Steph Curry's free-throw shooting highlights how the uncertainty of maintaining a long streak can be motivating.

💡Trustworthiness

Trustworthiness is the quality of being trustworthy or reliable. In the video, it is identified as a key component in communication that can lead to flow. Clear, specific, and trustworthy feedback can reduce uncertainty and enhance the flow state during conversations.

💡Ambiguity

Ambiguity refers to the quality of being unclear or open to multiple interpretations. The video discusses the role of ambiguity in communication, where it can be used intentionally to create uncertainty, which contrasts with the goal of reducing uncertainty to achieve flow.

💡Goal Setting

Goal setting is the process of identifying something one wishes to achieve. The video suggests that setting goals with an optimal level of uncertainty can be more effective than setting easily attainable goals, as it can lead to a greater sense of flow and achievement.

💡Communication

Communication is the act of conveying meaning from one entity to another. In the video, the role of communication in reducing uncertainty and facilitating flow is discussed. Effective communication, such as providing specific and trustworthy feedback, can enhance the flow experience.

Highlights

Flow is described as a state of complete immersion and engagement in an activity.

Flow can reverse the dynamic of effort and self-control, making it easier to continue an activity rather than stop.

The benefits of flow include improved performance and positive impacts on mental health and well-being.

The traditional advice on achieving flow through an optimal level of challenge may not be accurate.

Flow can be induced by activities that reduce uncertainty about the future, such as slot machines.

Uncertainty reduction, rather than challenge level, is the source of flow according to David Melnikoff's research.

In business, framing goals with uncertainty can lead to increased flow and performance.

Uncertainty is not inherently bad; it's necessary for the emergence of flow.

Setting goals with a degree of uncertainty can be more effective than focusing solely on attainability.

Flow can be used as a mental reset tool, helping to clear the mind and return to tasks with fresh perspective.

Communication that reduces uncertainty can lead to a flow state in conversations.

Trustworthiness, clarity, and specificity in communication are key to inducing flow.

The distinction between ambiguity and uncertainty is explored, with ambiguity being a source of uncertainty.

Laurie Santos is highlighted as an admirable communicator for her trustworthiness and clarity.

The importance of using personal experiences to explain complex concepts is emphasized.

Markers and a recycling bin are used as an example of a personal method to achieve flow and reset the mind.

Transcripts

Think back to an instance where you

were so immersed in what you were

doing that you forgot all about

time, what else was happening

around you, where you needed to be.

That's flow.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and

I teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of

Business.

Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart,

the podcast.

[MUSIC]

Today I look forward to speaking

with David Melnikoff.

David is an assistant professor

of organizational behavior at

Stanford GSB.

He investigates how people pursue

and achieve their goals,

especially with a focus on flow.

Welcome David,

I'm really excited for

our conversation.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> In my early studies in managing

anxiety around public speaking, I

learned about the concept of flow.

You've looked deeply into flow.

I'm wondering though, for

our listeners who might not

be familiar with it, can you

share a bit about what flow is, and

what the benefits of flow are?

>> Sure, flow is the state

of being completely immersed and

engaged in what you're doing.

So normally when we pursue a goal,

we imagine something that's

tedious, tiresome, it requires

effort, it requires self-control,

it requires grit.

Basically, you have to keep your

foot on the gas to keep going.

And to fail a goal pursuit is to

fail to keep your foot on the gas.

But when you're in a flow state

this dynamic is reversed.

You don't need to exert effort and

self-control to keep going.

You need to exert effort and

self-control to stop yourself.

So if you've ever seen a child or

if you yourself have ever been

playing a video game and someone

comes in and says, can you stop,

we need to go do something else,

and you say sure.

And then 45 minutes later, you're

still doing what you're doing.

That was the flow state.

The benefits of flow are many.

When you're in a flow state, you

tend to perform better at the task

that you're currently engaged in.

And also, flow has benefits for

mental health and well-being.

The more flow people experience,

the happier they tend to be in

their daily lives.

>> I certainly remember when I was

studying anxiety management around

communication, that getting into

that present moment,

being in the flow of it,

reduced the feelings of anxiety and

actually increased enjoyment.

>> Right. >> When you mentioned

video gaming, I had to smile.

I had a very unhealthy relationship

with Tetris for a while.

>> Yes, Tetris is the classic

example of a flow in [INAUDIBLE].

>> Yeah, I would get in the flow

and lose total track of time.

So how can one get into a state of

flow, and

are there different strategies for

maintaining a state of flow?

>> One of the main findings of my

research is that the typical advice

that you got about how to achieve

flow seems to be wrong.

So typically, when people advise

you on how to enter a flow state,

they say that what you need is

an optimal level of challenge in

the task you're pursuing.

So you want a task that's not so

difficult as to be frustrating.

But you also want a task that's not

so easy as to be boring.

My work suggests that that's not

true.

And we don't really need to get in

into the details of the work.

We can just see that this is not

true if you walk into any casino

and go look at the people playing

slot machines.

There's nothing easier and

less challenging in the world than

putting a quarter in a slot and

pulling a lever.

But a slot machine is one

of the most potent sources of flow

there is.

People will be in

an almost trance-like state,

engaging in this activity that is

nowhere near any sort of Goldilocks

zone of challenge.

So if it's not a moderate level

of challenge,

what is the source of flow?

The source of flow,

according to my research,

is engaging in an activity that

allows you to reduce uncertainty

about your future.

Engaging in actions that reduce

possible future outcomes,

or ideally eliminate all possible

future outcomes except for one.

The elimination of possible futures

induces a state of flow.

So concretely returning to the In

the case of a slot machine,

before you pull a lever on that

slot machine, there are dozens and

dozens of possible outcomes,

specifically financial payouts.

And you're highly uncertain about

which of those outcomes

will be realized.

Then you pull the lever, and

then those symbols appear

on the reel, and all of that

uncertainty is suddenly eliminated.

You've reduced many, many,

many possible futures to one.

And that hit of uncertainty

reduction, draws you in, sucks you

in, and captures your attention,

and induces the state of flow.

And what's sort of magical about

the slot machine is, you can do it

right over again as many times as

you want, and you'll get that same

hit of uncertainty reduction again

and again and again.

It's that hit of uncertainty

reduction that cultivates a flow

state.

>> It's fascinating.

Several things you said just really

intrigued me.

I liked this notion of cultivating.

I like that word, it sounds like

something you work on, you tend to.

You teach organizational behavior,

you're in a business school.

How do these principles you've just

described apply directly in

business?

In running meetings or

in our interactions with others,

the goals that we set for

our function, our role, the way in

which we create our strategy.

How do these all come together?

>> I think that it invites you to

think about the amount of,

when you give someone a task,

when you give someone a goal, and

you frame a goal for that person,

it invites you to think about the

amount of uncertainty associated

with the goal you've assigned.

So as off the top of my head,

suppose you are thinking

of creating a sales competition.

There are many ways of framing the

sales competition as an incentive.

You can say the winner of the sales

competition say there

are 50 salespeople, and you

say the winner of this competition

is going to win a ticket for

an all-expense-paid vacation.

Now, there's only one winner here.

You can either win or lose.

And probably when you have 49

competitors, the likelihood of

winning is not very high.

So you sort of already know

the outcome.

There's not much uncertainty for

you to reduce by actually engaging

in this sales competition.

You could have alternatively had

various prizes,

a first place, second place, third,

fourth, fifth, sixth, and maybe if

funds are limited, it's not an

all-expense-paid trip for everyone.

But in this case, if the relevant

outcome is not just win/lose but

come in first, come in second,

come in third, come in fourth.

Now there's a lot more uncertainty

available for

the competitors to reduce through

the competition.

And that will induce more flow.

And we already talked about

the benefits of that result in

greater performance.

>> I find it interesting and

counterintuitive often

when managers are trained and

leaders are trained, it's all about

reducing uncertainty.

>> Yes. >> To make things

clear- >> Yes.

>> They'll prioritize.

>> Yes.

>> And here I'm hearing that we can

actually leverage uncertainty

to be beneficial.

>> There's a misunderstanding that

uncertainty is inherently bad.

>> Right. >> And

it's easy to fall into that trap

because remember flow emerges from

the reduction of uncertainty.

So ultimately you do want to reduce

The uncertainty, but

there must be uncertainty there to

be reduced in the first place.

So we shouldn't interpret the value

of reducing uncertainty as meaning

that we should eliminate certainty

to begin with.

You want to

give people opportunities

to reduce uncertainty because that

is where flow comes from.

>> On this podcast, we've talked

to your colleagues Zhi Huang, and

we've talked to Katy Milkman about

goals and goal pursuit,

particularly for individuals.

This seems to me to be yet

another tool that we can use in our

own pursuit of the goals we have

fitness, health,

well-being being social.

Do you yourself use some of these

tools to help you engage in

more meaningful goal pursuit?

>> Yeah, I certainly do.

I try to set goals for myself,

the outcomes of which are as

uncertain as possible so that

I can reduce as much uncertainty as

possible through my actions.

This can take variety of forms.

So a lot of what I do is write.

And writing Is as important as it

is, it can be a real slog for

a lot of people, myself included.

And what I like to do is ask myself

what way of framing

this writing activity would induce

as much uncertainty as possible.

Is it how many words can I write in

the next 30 minutes?

Is it how many paragraphs can I

complete in the next hour?

Is it how good of an introduction

to this paper can I write?

Now the outcome isn't number but

some abstract notion of quality.

And you can go through all these

different ways of framing what

you're doing.

And for each framing,

just ask yourself, how uncertain am

I about the outcome of my goal if

I adopt this framing or

that framing and pick the one

that induces the most uncertainty?

And I do that constantly.

>> I need to do this to help in my

writing because writing for

me can be very challenging.

But I'm also thinking about

a personal goal I have to work on

my balance instability.

As I get older, that's a more

important thing, and I, and

immediately I'm starting to think

about, I want to look for streaks.

How long can I go balancing?

How many ways can I do this,

achieve this one task?

I like that a lot.

Already, I'm excited to do

it versus the way I was,

previously reframing or framing it.

>> To offer another piece of

concrete advice, >> Sure.

>> Streaks, if we think about it,

are really potent sources of

flow when the activity that we're

talking about is something that

you're already quite good at.

If you're Steph Curry and

you're making 95% of your free

throws, if you think in terms of

Of a streak, the length of that

streak is really uncertain.

I mean, that streak could go on for

a really long time.

But if you're me,

and I might make, I have no idea,

maybe 10%, that streak isn't

going to go on more than two.

I mean, there's just no way I'm

making three in a row, certainly no

way I'm making four in row, okay?

So I sort of know before I start

how long

that streak is going to go.

So for Steph Curry,

streaks are going to be far more

potent than me.

So what should I do?

What I should do is not think in

terms of how many can I get in

a row, what I should do is think,

what are the fewest number of

misses I can achieve before

my first success.

because that number is

highly uncertain,

much more uncertain than how many

successes can I get in a row.

So when you're great at something,

streaks are good.

When you're not so

good at something,

think what's the fewest number of

misses before my first success.

>> I really like that.

And that is, it's motivational, and

it's something that I think all of

us can do in many different aspects

of our lives.

Thank you.

Some of my most flow-like

experiences happen when I'm with

others in conversation, playing

a sport, interacting in some way.

Is there research on how we can

best collaborate with others to

create shared flow experience, and

what role does

communication play in that, if any?

>> Sure, so in any communicative

context, there is some goal, and

there's some uncertainty associated

with that, and you can reduce that

uncertainty through communication.

And the degree to which

the communication reduces that

uncertainty, will lead to more or

less flow in that conversation.

So for instance,

suppose I'm an employee and

you're a manager and

I come to you in search of feedback

on a job that I did.

I want to know how well I did on

a particular task or how well I'm

doing at my job in general.

Depending on how you respond and

how I expect you to respond,

you can reduce more or less

uncertainty about my performance.

The more uncertainty you reduce,

the more flow I'm going to

experience during that

conversation.

So for you,

that means a few things.

One, it means that your feedback

needs to be trustworthy.

And in general, trustworthiness is

going to be really important for

flowing in and communication

because if I can't trust what

you're saying, what you're saying

cannot possibly reduce very much

uncertainty for me.

Second, you need to be clear.

That's kind of obvious if you're

unclear, I don't know what the heck

you're saying.

Then of course,

what you're saying can't reduce

very much uncertainty for me.

And third, you need to

be sufficiently specific.

So maybe you're a manager who

is the kind of person who will

give me one or two responses to

the question, how am I doing?

You might say, you are meeting or

exceeding expectations or

you are not meeting or

exceeding expectations.

Now if I'm a decent employee, I

already knew that I was meeting or

exceeding expectations, you've not

reduced any uncertainty for me.

For me to get information,

what I need is something specific.

I need to know, well,

am I meeting or am I exceeding?

If I'm exceeding,

by how much am I exceeding?

And in what way am I exceeding?

So you need to be trustworthy,

clear, and specific in order for

communication to be a source

of flow.

>> Excellent,

when I was in graduate school,

I studied uncertainty reduction

theory in communication and it's

exactly as you're talking about.

Most communication and

communication that we feel most

intensely about and can get

in those flow states is where we

are reducing uncertainty for

each other.

So mutual disclosure and

really working towards that,

really, really fascinating.

This is a total tangential

curiosity I have.

>> Sure.

>> What's the distinction in

your mind between ambiguity and

uncertainty?

Because in communication in

particular, some of our most

important goals we achieve

through ambiguity, where we're

purposely trying to be unclear.

How does that relate to this notion

of uncertainty?

Because when I'm ambiguous, I'm

certainly increasing uncertainty.

This is a professional curiosity,

do you make a distinction?

>> So I would say to be ambiguous

is just to be a source

of uncertainty for

others in conversation.

I think that there can be an art to

being ambiguous and

seeming specific.

Sometimes people can go away

thinking they've learned a lot.

And then when you actually look

back and recall what they said,

you realize that that

could have meant anything.

And so in that sense,

it is I think, possible to reduce

uncertainty in the mind of another

while in fact being ambiguous.

But I do think that generally

speaking they're going to be very

closely linked in the sense that

the more ambiguous you are,

the more uncertainty

there's going to be in your among

the members of your audience.

>> And that resonates to Often

when we teach communication,

we focus on fidelity, accuracy, and

clarity, reducing uncertainty.

And yet many of the things we do in

our lives, deception, relationship

initiation, politeness,

we invoke uncertainty and ambiguity

to help us get through it.

>> That's right.

>> So we've talked about the role

of flow in goal setting and

goal attainment.

You study goals in general.

Besides flow,

do you have other advice or

recommendations for how we can set

goals, we can achieve and

work towards accomplishing them?

>> Well, my general, I think

the most novel advice that I can

offer is actually something that we

touched on earlier, which is that,

I think the way you phrased it,

you said,

how can we set achievable goals?

>> Yes.

>> And that's a very common

question, and

most people want to set goals

that are as attainable as possible.

And that's not bad advice.

You certainly don't

want to set a goal that you know

you can't obtain.

But you also don't want to

set a goal that's too attainable.

And I think people can get off

track by setting goals that are so

easy, so attainable, that there's

no uncertainty about whether to

what extent it will be achieved.

So whether you have a weight loss

goal, or a professional goal, or

any kind of academical or

health goal.

I would say attainability shouldn't

be the strongest or

most salient focus.

You want to find some sweet spot

where you are,

there's some degree of uncertainty

about whether to what extent you're

going to achieve it.

Now, of course, when doing this,

you need to account for

the cost of failing to achieve.

But given that, you really want to

have the attainability of the goal

be as uncertain as possible given

the cost of failure.

>> I think that's very helpful.

I know in my own life and

the people I'm close to,

setting goals are things that we

think we can achieve right away and

are very clearly defined.

And maybe the best step is to go

one beyond that and

to build in that uncertainty.

>> That's right.

>> I want to get meta a bit.

You study a very complex topic,

flow.

You talk about certainty and

uncertainty in ways that most

people don't think about them.

What techniques and tactics do you

use as you think about explaining

complex concepts like this that

others could benefit from?

Because you do a very nice job of

helping.

You use analogies.

You use examples.

What's your thought process on how

do I take something that's complex

and make it accessible so

people can understand it.

>> I think it's

a combination of two things.

One, it just so happens to be

the case that a lot of complicated

concepts don't come easy to me.

It requires a lot of work, and I

start off confused and frustrated.

And then there's some aha moment.

And what I try my very best to do

is remember exactly what happened

in my mind before that aha moment.

What was the thing that made it

click?

It's actually pretty easy to get so

caught up in the Eureka moment and

then forget what it was that got

you there.

And then when you go back and

start trying to explain something,

your audience is just as confused

as you were when you started.

>> I really like this idea of

the unlock coming from the moment

before it all made sense.

>> Yes.

>> And reminding yourself what you

went through to get there and

using that as a catapult to help

you explain it to other people.

We're often so

happy that we just figured it out

that we don't remind ourselves what

happened right before.

>> That's right.

>> And that, I think,

could be a huge unlock for

many people, so thank you for that.

Before we end, I'd like to ask you

three questions, one all tailored

specifically to you, and

then the other two are questions I

ask everybody on the show.

Are you ready for that?

>> I think so.

All right, I'm very curious, David,

what is something you do to invite

flow into your own life?

I sometimes will actually, and

ever since I was a little kid, I

loved putting Lego bricks together.

And I will use that as a way of

getting into a flow state, and

for me, that works very well.

What are things that you do?

>> So don't tell my Dean about

this, but what I actually do in my

office pretty frequently is, and

actually, before I even tell you

what I do, let me explain why I do

this, because flow increases

performance and makes you happier.

>> Yeah.

>> But sometimes people will engage

in a flow activity like Legos as

a distraction.

And I think that's because when

you're doing a creative task, so

for me, when I'm writing, sometimes

I'm just stuck and I need a reset.

I'm just in a mental rut and

I need to leave that mental state

I'm in, and

just come back fresh to the problem

that I'm trying to solve.

And entering into a flow state for

five or ten minutes is a great way

of sort of wiping the board

clean and it allows me to come back

mentally fresh to the problem

that I was trying to solve.

And oftentimes it's easier to find

a breakthrough that way.

So how do I do that?

In my office,

there's a recycling bin, and

I have a bunch of markers that I

use to write on my whiteboard.

And when no one's in my office,

I'll take that recycling bin out,

and I'll toss my markers into

the recycling bin, trying to

get as many in a row as possible.

I've actually become

kind of good at this.

That's why I think in terms of

streaks, and not how many misses,

but the fewest number of misses I

can get before my first success.

And I'll just do that for a while

and then take the markers out of

the bin, [LAUGH] put the bin back,

and go back to my writing.

>> So I've learned a couple

of things from that.

One, I always have to knock on

your door before I come in.

I don't want to get

hit by an errant pen.

>> That's right, yeah.

And second, for your birthday or

for a holiday gift,

I'm going to get you little

basketballs and- >> Actually,

I would genuinely love that, yes.

>> [LAUGH] Question number two,

who is a communicator that you

admire and why?

>> I would say Laurie Santos.

So Laurie is a professor of

psychology at Yale.

She's also the host of, I believe

it's The Happiness Lab podcast,

which is fabulous.

I got my PhD at Yale in

the psychology department, and so

I've known her for a long time.

And what's just always impressed me

is her ability to, I mentioned

trustworthiness as being a key to

flow in conversation, obviously,

just something that's inherently

important in communication.

And it's, I think, really hard for

someone whose job it is to

constantly communicate

to the public, to always make

sure that information is accurate.

I think that there are some

incentives in place that can lead

people to maybe say things

that don't have all the evidence in

the world to support it and

say it anyway.

And I can just say Laurie,

in addition to being crystal clear

in the way she communicates,

and compelling in the way she

communicates as

a scientific communicator,

she's exceptionally trustworthy,

and I really admire that.

>> Excellent, final question, and

trustworthiness might be

a component of that answer, is,

what are the first three

ingredients that go into

a successful communication recipe?

>> Yes, I think you guessed it.

I think for me, trustworthiness,

clarity, and

as I said, specificity.

>> I think those are just

absolutely essential in order for

communication to be successful.

>> Well,

you have done a fantastic job today

being very clear,

being very specific, and

I certainly trust you.

>> [LAUGH] >> And

we appreciate the insight, and

I encourage everybody to think

about how you can build flow into

your practice to help you better

achieve the goals that you hold for

yourself.

David, thank you for your time.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Thank you for listening to

another episode of Think Fast,

Talk Smart, the Podcast.

To learn more about goals and

goal attainment, listen to episode

57 with Szu-chi Huang and

episode 104 with Katie Milkman.

This episode was recorded at

Stanford Video,

produced by Jenny Luna,

Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Please find us wherever you get

your podcasts and make

sure to check out YouTube as well.

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