Mastery is an Infinite Game with performance psychologist Mike Gervais | A Bit of Optimism
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful podcast, the conversation delves into the concepts of confidence, belonging, and the pursuit of mastery over performance. The discussion highlights the importance of purpose in driving personal growth and the challenges of navigating social pressures as a 'social animal.' It emphasizes the need to find one's authentic path, rather than seeking external validation, and touches on the transformative power of reframing experiences from a place of opportunity rather than threat.
Takeaways
- π Confidence stems from the narrative you create for yourself, highlighting the importance of self-talk in building a credible and positive self-image.
- π The distinction between high performance and mastery is crucial; the former is about meeting demands, while the latter involves a deeper, more organic growth process.
- π€ The societal and cultural emphasis on performance over mastery can lead to a 'treadmill' effect, where the focus is on outcomes rather than the journey of improvement.
- π§ββοΈ Mastery of craft and self is essential, using one's skills to understand and contribute to the human condition on a deeper level.
- π Finding purpose is key to transcending the need for external validation; it shifts the focus from identity to a larger, more meaningful goal.
- π€ Belonging and being part of a community are primal needs, but over-identification with a group can lead to conformity and contortion of one's values.
- π Having a clear purpose can mitigate the fear of rejection or failure, as it provides a larger context for one's actions and identity.
- π‘ The concept of 'infinite' versus 'finite' thinking is pivotal, with the former promoting ongoing growth and learning, as opposed to the latter which can lead to a dead end.
- π‘οΈ Protecting oneself from re-traumatization can manifest as extreme caution or avoidance, impacting one's willingness to take risks necessary for growth.
- ποΈββοΈ Recovery is as important as performance, requiring a disciplined approach to self-care and mental preparation to maintain peak performance.
- π± Reframing stressors as opportunities can significantly alter one's mindset, allowing for more positive and productive engagement with challenges.
Q & A
What is the main difference between confidence and self-worth as discussed in the transcript?
-The transcript suggests that confidence is state-specific and can change from moment to moment based on the situation and self-perception, while self-worth is often tied to results and societal judgments, which can lead to an unhealthy reliance on external validation.
Why is the concept of 'Mastery' preferred over 'Performance' in the context of personal growth?
-The transcript emphasizes 'Mastery' as an input and a commitment to a deeper understanding of one's craft and self, which is more organic and authentic compared to 'Performance', which is an output and often tied to external demands and results.
How does the idea of 'Mastery' relate to the concept of purpose in an individual's life?
-The transcript connects 'Mastery' to a purpose-driven life, suggesting that when one is committed to Mastery, their identity fades away, and their actions are driven by a larger purpose, contributing to something meaningful beyond personal identity.
What is the significance of the samurai sword maker's story in the discussion about Mastery?
-The samurai sword maker's story illustrates the lifelong commitment to learning and improvement, embodying the concept of Mastery. Even after 30 years, the maker still sees himself as learning, which highlights the continuous journey of Mastery.
How does the transcript differentiate between finite and infinite thinking in relation to identity and purpose?
-Finite thinking is associated with performance-based identity and goal achievement, which has an end point, while infinite thinking is linked to purpose, which is an ongoing commitment and exploration of potential without a definitive end.
What role does the concept of 'ICM' or 'Ideal Competitive Mindframe' play in an individual's performance?
-The 'ICM' represents the optimal state of mind for performance. The transcript suggests that recognizing and understanding one's ICM can help in building up to that state consistently, which is crucial for peak performance in any field.
How does the transcript address the issue of social anxiety and the fear of being ostracized?
-The transcript acknowledges the deep-seated human need for belonging and the fear of ostracism, which can lead to behaviors that compromise one's values for the sake of acceptance. It suggests that clarity of purpose can help mitigate the anxiety associated with social rejection.
What is the relationship between trauma and the protective mechanisms people develop to avoid re-traumatization?
-The transcript explains that people develop protective mechanisms as a response to unexamined trauma, aiming to avoid the pain of re-traumatization. These mechanisms can manifest as avoidance behaviors or excessive caution in situations reminiscent of past traumas.
How does the transcript discuss the impact of job insecurity on the younger generation's approach to work and loyalty?
-The transcript suggests that the younger generation has experienced a shift from job security to job insecurity, leading them to question the traditional model of loyalty to a company. This has resulted in a more cautious approach to employment and a reevaluation of what constitutes a stable career.
What strategies are mentioned in the transcript for daily recovery to manage stress and maintain optimal performance?
-The transcript highlights the importance of having a daily recovery routine that includes mental and physical practices to manage stress. It also emphasizes the need for positive self-talk and reframing stressful situations as opportunities for growth and excitement.
Outlines
π§ The Psychology of Confidence and Mastery
This paragraph delves into the concept of confidence and how it is derived from one's self-talk. It emphasizes the importance of knowing one's purpose to transcend the need for external validation. The discussion highlights the difference between high performance and mastery, with the former being about executing on demand and the latter involving a deeper, more organic commitment to understanding and improving. The speaker, a psychologist and high-performance expert, contrasts the two and suggests that mastery is about the craft and self-improvement, rather than just achieving results. The conversation also touches on the societal focus on results and how this can impact self-worth and identity.
π Insights from High-Performance Psychology in Sports
In this paragraph, the discussion shifts to the world of sports, specifically the Seattle Seahawks, to illustrate the concepts of high performance and mastery. The speaker recounts how pre-game rituals and the coach's inquiries about the team's mental framework influenced his understanding of performance. The emphasis is on the importance of a sturdy and agile mindset, capable of withstanding challenging environments. The conversation also explores the idea of confidence being state-specific and derived from a balance between perceived challenges and internal skills. The speaker shares a story about a samurai sword maker in Japan, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and the pursuit of mastery over time.
π Overcoming Identity Crisis Through Mastery
The speaker discusses the dangers of over-identifying with a single aspect of one's identity, such as being a high-performing athlete or a successful executive. He shares personal stories of struggling with subjects in school and not having a standout talent, which led him to explore other areas of strength. The conversation touches on the concept of finite and infinite thinking, where finite thinking is goal-oriented and can lead to identity crises, while infinite thinking is more about a lifelong pursuit of mastery. The speaker emphasizes the importance of finding one's purpose and not being defined solely by external achievements.
π The Pursuit of Mastery Beyond Performance
This paragraph continues the exploration of mastery and its impact on identity and purpose. The speaker discusses the concept of performance-based identity and how it can lead to anxiety and a constant need for validation. He contrasts this with a purpose-based identity, which is more about contributing to something meaningful and less about personal achievement. The conversation also touches on the societal pressure to conform and the fear of rejection, which can lead to a loss of authenticity. The speaker encourages listeners to focus on purpose and to find joy in the process of mastery, rather than solely on outcomes.
π The Ancient Brain's Impact on Modern Belonging
The discussion in this paragraph centers on the evolutionary aspects of belonging and how the ancient human brain's need for safety and belonging still influences modern behavior. The speaker explains how being part of a group was crucial for survival in ancient times and how this need for belonging can lead to conforming or contorting one's identity in the present day. The conversation also touches on the psychological impact of rejection and the fear of being ostracized. The speaker uses the example of flat earthers to illustrate how a strong sense of belonging can override rational thought and lead to the rejection of evidence.
π The Cultural Shift Towards Purpose and Recovery
This paragraph discusses the cultural shift from a performance-based society to one that values purpose and recovery. The speaker talks about the importance of understanding one's purpose and how it can help in overcoming the fear of rejection and the need for external validation. He also emphasizes the need for daily recovery, especially in high-stress environments like elite sports. The conversation highlights the importance of reframing stress and pressure into opportunities for growth and learning. The speaker shares insights from his work with athletes and executives, emphasizing the need for a supportive environment that encourages vulnerability and risk-taking.
π The Role of Purpose in Athletic and Corporate Cultures
The speaker explores the role of purpose in both athletic and corporate cultures, highlighting how a clear sense of purpose can help individuals find meaning beyond performance. He discusses the challenges athletes face when their careers end and the importance of having a broader purpose that extends beyond their sport. The conversation also touches on the changing dynamics of corporate loyalty and the need for companies to support their employees in finding a sense of purpose. The speaker suggests that helping individuals discover their purpose can be a powerful tool in both sports and business.
π οΈ Tools for Personal Recovery and Growth
In this paragraph, the speaker shares practical tools for personal recovery and growth. He emphasizes the importance of reframing thoughts to create space rather than constriction, and the need for daily recovery to manage stress effectively. The speaker discusses the concept of an ideal competitive mindset (ICM) and how athletes and executives can work towards achieving this state. He also talks about the power of self-talk and how positive, supportive self-dialogue can help individuals navigate challenging moments. The conversation includes strategies for recognizing and shifting from a threat to an opportunity mindset.
π Embracing Excitement Over Nervousness
The final paragraph focuses on the power of reframing nervousness as excitement, drawing from the speaker's experiences and insights from elite athletes. He shares how elite athletes interpret the physical symptoms of nervousness as excitement, which helps them perform better under pressure. The speaker encourages listeners to practice this reframing in their own lives, especially in high-stress situations like public speaking. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the importance of awareness and the use of psychological tools to manage emotions effectively.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Confidence
π‘Mastery
π‘Performance
π‘Identity
π‘Purpose
π‘Fear of Rejection
π‘Social Animals
π‘Craft
π‘Results Orientation
π‘Recovery
π‘Ideal Performance Mindset
Highlights
Confidence arises from the dialogue with oneself and must be credible.
The importance of purpose in transcending identity to contribute to something meaningful.
The difference between high performance and mastery, with the latter involving a deeper, organic process.
Mastery involves both the craft and self, using the craft to understand the human condition.
The societal focus on results and performance, often at the expense of personal worth and development.
The concept of finite and infinite thinking, and how it relates to performance-based versus mastery-based identity.
The journey of finding one's purpose and how it can lead to a more fulfilling life beyond high performance.
The impact of over-identification with a single skill or talent on personal development and identity.
The role of vulnerability in achieving mastery and the importance of creating a safe space for exploration.
The psychological effects of mass layoffs and job insecurity on the younger generation's approach to work.
The shift from a performance-based culture to one that values recovery and purpose in achieving success.
The idea of reframing nervousness as excitement to positively influence one's mindset.
The significance of self-talk in building confidence and managing the perception of challenges.
The importance of daily recovery practices in maintaining mental health and peak performance.
The concept of an ideal performance mindset and how it can be cultivated for consistent high-level performance.
The role of purpose in guiding life decisions and providing a sense of direction beyond immediate goals.
The impact of societal expectations and the fear of rejection on personal behavior and self-expression.
The transformative power of purpose in overcoming the fear of failure and the pursuit of mastery.
Transcripts
confidence is super interesting like it
only comes from one place and one place
only go on what you say to yourself but
how on Earth do I actually stop caring
about what people think about me when as
social animals I want to be included I
want to feel like I belong I want to be
trusted I want to be a member of the
tribe I want to be welcomed and invited
because not to be is to feel alone to
feel ostracized to feel brushed aside
know your purpose so it's no longer
about identity it's about something far
larger so your identity Fades away it
just allows your identity of like I have
to perform to start to evaporate and I'm
performing because I want to contribute
to something that's really meaningful
and it's not Wall Street bottom
line Mike I'm so glad you came on the
show uh I'm such a fan and I I so
enjoyed coming on your podcast finding
Mastery and I thought you know for those
who don't know fing Mastery a you're
missing out but B how selfish am I to go
and enjoy your company and not share you
with everybody else so thanks for thanks
for joining our little podcast for those
who don't know you um you're a
psychologist by training and in
particular what I would I guess high
performance right that's your specialty
correct um and you worked with the
Seahawks and other football teams you
come from
Sports um what I let's start let's start
for you you talk about Mastery over for
performance and I find this this is an
important Nuance because every CEO you
talk to CEOs and like you know so what
kind of we're a high performance culture
we're a high performance everything is
performance performance even when it's
not why doesn't anybody talk about
Mastery why are people so obsessed about
performance and even you you come from
Sports where performance is the thing
that they talk about why does everybody
talk about performance and nobody thinks
about or talks about Mastery there's
kind of like this high performance
treadmill in just about every industry
that you can get your kids on you you
know like there's a some sort of track
in the corporate world that you can get
on that you know you do a b and c things
you give yourself a pretty good chance
of being a high performer whether it's
technical skill development in sport
it's physical and for all of us it's
mental and there's like a a little bit
of a track for it and the track for
Mastery is really Los
when I think about the difference
between high performance and
Mastery e high performance is about
executing on demand but with Mastery
there's a bit of a contour to it there's
something that
just has an organic authentic artistic
expression on demand certainly but
there's a different Contour to the path
of Mastery um what do you mean by
Contour the way that you see the world
around you is
there's a difference between people that
are committed to Mastery and those that
are committed to high performance so I
don't have a better word I've been
studying this thing for 25 years and so
the I wish there was a way to express
the space that happens for people that
are committed to Mastery versus like the
execution got to go drive drive drive
drive get it done you know execute on
command be great be great recover be
great recover that's like the high
performance kind of process Mill if you
will nothing wrong with that but there's
a difference between the commitment to
Mastery and then let me open it up two
ways Mastery really is about Mastery of
craft and Mastery of self so you're
you're really using the craft to go
deeper to understand The Human Condition
yourself first and then in return other
people as well I need I need to go
deeper than this because we get judged
mostly by our results right our bonus
structures are large largely tied to our
results a lot of people unfortunately
tie their self worth to their results
that's right um uh we are a uh for
better more likely For Worse results
oriented Society we grade children we
grade their art from very young very
early Ag and it's usually individually
motivated you know what is your grade
relative to other relative to other
people you know etc etc etc and as we
talk about this and I'm sort of like
thinking about the people I admire
performance is an output it it it
literally comes at the end of something
that's right Mastery is an input yeah
Mastery is a commitment like the Mastery
comes before that's right and so that's
one difference which is somebody who is
you know you actors always talk about
the craft you know you say how do you
know that person's a good actor like
they they study the craft yes you you I
was with the Seattle Seahawks for nine
seasons and just about every game we won
a lot it was a it was a high performing
team and just about every game we're on
the 50 yard line pregame there's like
the stadium holds uh let's call it 70 I
think it was like 78,000 people so it's
about half full at this point there's
good energy players are out there moving
around doing their thing and for sure
coach would always come up to me and say
so mik what do you think what do you
think what do you think about today and
at first I thought that I needed to
answer that like I am the high
performance psychologist I need to
answer what I think about their their
mindsets or their commitment to winning
or or their ability to win today which
and then I realized like no this is
about the coaches really asking what do
you think of their framework what do you
think of the quarterback's framework is
it sturdy or is it flimsy is are is the
offense going to get knocked around or
they grounded and really sturdy and how
they're going to go about being their
very best and to your point about input
output there is another output winning
whatever that means right and when you
Cobble together a bunch of performance
outputs you get to the outcome right
whatever winning means for
people and in that process if you have a
sturdy
Nimble strong agile the antifragile type
of stuff if if that is the way that your
psychology is built you can go weather
some really incredible hostile rugged
challenging environments
psychologically so it when you say it's
an input it's a fundamental decision
that you make that I'm moving towards um
Mastery as opposed to high performance I
went to
Japan and we went to visit um a samurai
sword maker there you go and he's one of
the last like hundred guys left making
samurai swords in the traditional method
where he folds the steel himself and
does all this and his story was quite
remarkable which is he had a desk job um
and was like I can't this can't be my
life and he quit and decided to become
an apprentice sword maker and has now
been on his
own and uh he says we we talk you know
we're we're talking to him and he's like
you know I'm still I'm still learning um
I'm one day I I hope to be good at this
and we're like how long have you been
doing this he said 30 years that's that
that's it you know yeah you're lighting
up when you say it cuz like that
appreciation truly for being being a
beginner in your approach to like how
things really work and as you get
further down the path even at 25 30
years and you're further down the path
of really understanding something yeah
um the Mastery of self is what drives
that Curiosity yeah like wait how does
this man if I could just figure out how
to really dial this thing in in the way
that I see it could be yeah how do I
match my skills with the the challenge
ahead of me or in front of me he doesn't
think he's bad at it he just knows he
can be better that's exactly it and
there's there was an incredible lack of
ego you know at the same time an
incredible self-confidence yeah because
otherwise you wouldn't have the grit to
stick with it and realize them because I
think you have confidence if you see
yourself improving confidence is super
interesting like it only comes from one
place and one place
only go on what you say to
yourself that's it and so now that has
to be credible yeah you have to speak to
yourself in a credible way and there's
there's a calculus there's a math it's a
math problemy ol logically if you will
is that what's happening for confidence
and I'm going to tie it to your point in
a second is that there's this constant
calculus which is I'm interpreting the
challenge ahead of me or in front of me
the demands of a challenge okay whatever
it is playing one-on-one basketball
against Michael Jordan or having a
conversation with you or whatever it
might be I put you and Jordan in the
same category
and so um no for real like it's a it's a
perception of the challenge mapped
against my perception of my internal
skills let's say that again a perception
of the challenge mapped against my
perception of my SK skills right and so
if I can see the challenge is high and
wonderful and big and whatever and then
I can also know how to back myself that
I've got skills to navigate this
challenge right now I've got like the
I've now I've got the ability to speak
to myself in a way that builds
confidence so confidence is State
specific meaning it changes from moment
to moment from
environment but that's the math that
sits underneath of it and you were
probably really smart when you were
young you're smart now um it's like the
same as a young athlete they're probably
pretty talented when they were young
certainly the exceptional ones are and
like they they or you didn't maybe
really learn how confidence worked
because when you walked into a room you
were always one of the smarter ones that
got it quickly so you didn't know that
it had to come from this calculus it
just was a thing that happen based on
how well things go now here's the Trap
my confidence comes when something goes
well I feel confident yeah when I get
two buckets in a row now I'm confident
when I walk on stage and people smile
and I say a couple funny things and
something smart and I get that look from
the audience then then you nod your head
like nah now I'm in my pocket yeah so
that's dangerous because you're waiting
for your external world to give you the
information that your internal world is
solid and when it goes directionally in
that way
is a problem now you're constantly
getting whipped around the external
world so if you get the direction of
this right and you build it on the math
that we just spoke about okay so here's
the reality the real story yeah I was a
solid be student okay cool right yeah
uh I think my brain worked quickly but
there's some subjects I just didn't
grasp and to this day I still struggle
with right you know my friends were the
Smart
Ones like my friends were the one who is
the straight A student in math or the
straight A student in English or the
straight A student in history and they
all had a subject or a couple of my
friends were jocks who were like the
star football player
I jogged around the track occasionally
you know so what was going on so uh so
for me the challenge was I was always
the dumb one or the not athletic one
around my friends I mean I was athletic
but I was never an athlete yeah right
there might be something really healthy
going on there that you didn't over
identify your identity was R not wrapped
up in what you were doing and and so and
so this the the the stress that I had
was what's my subject everybody has a
subject like that one's good at math
that one's good at English that one's a
great writer that one's great at physics
that one you know and I had no subject
and so I had to go on a journey to be
like I'm fine at at everything but I'm
great at
nothing and I the lesson that I started
to learn was I I looked outside of the
subjects that were written on my school
schedule and thought what is the stuff
that I'm good at that my friend that I'm
I mean that I'm better than my friends
at and I was better at asking questions
I was better at
talking cuz I had to be cuz it was a
survival Instinct for ADHD CU I couldn't
study so I had to get good at asking
good questions and listening to the
answers and
I didn't know what to do with that but
it gave me confidence to know that I had
a thing it just wasn't written down on
my high school schedule or my College
schedule I've got a story for you I've
got a story for you
to uh to relate to what you just shared
is that um in high school and college I
didn't have a thing either and
so I'm I'm a psychologist in high school
I got an F in psychology
so I keep my high school report card in
mind as a reminder you know it's great
when you can find your thing at a young
age I was I was a bit of a wreck yeah so
um love my parents dad was a functioning
alcoholic mom was codependent and I knew
that I wasn't I didn't have a thing
either I was athletic but I was not the
athlete I was clever and smart but I was
definitely not the student and so I
didn't have a thing either and I think
that there's a case to be built that
when you over identify early on your
identity with a thing that you're good
at it can get you really good because
you have to go all inh so when you stand
at the pitcher box or or the Batters box
or you're on the pitcher Mount or
whatever sport it is and your entire
identity rests on you striking people
out or hitting home runs you practice
hard mhm you practice probably practice
harder than just about everyone else so
at a young age that get you really good
now you're this is a dead end full stop
dead end approach because you are so
much more than the thing that you do so
you and I accidentally were afforded
this luxury of kind of the flounder
floundering years where it's like your
identity was not wrapped up in it and
you didn't know the thing that you were
that was going to spark you there's so
many thoughts going through my head
which is um this goes to and you and I
have talked about this which is the
concept of finite and infinite thinking
right and the finite there's a great iry
in this which is to say I have a subject
or I'm a basketball player or I'm a
pitcher or whatever it is and I'm going
to be the best I'm going to work hard
and I've got that work ethic and I've
got that discipline the problem is there
is a date that that stops that's right
you either get injured get fired or it's
just time to retire just about everyone
gets pushed out of the pros and the same
can be is true in life I'm the best
lawyer I'm the best Banker I'm the best
blah blah blah and at some point you're
going to have to leave they'll either
push you out or you just age out right
there's the number of CEOs or high
performing Executives that I meet that
leave their careers or or you know sell
their companies whatever it is and they
have massive identity crisis because
their entire lives they would Define
themselves by this one thing that's
exactly and I here's the analogy I have
a friend who grew up in Fargo North
Dakota Fargo North Dakota who dreamed of
being a New York City rocket and making
it to Broadway no kid from Fargo North
Dakota parents did the sacrifice you
know all of this stuff
and she made it she be she went she made
it to
Broadway she became a New York City raet
right all of her dreams came true yeah
and then what she spent her entire life
committed to achieving this thing did it
for a few years and then she chased the
dream and accomplished the dream yeah
and then literally didn't know what to
do next if you knew what I knew
about what it takes for a kid to be one
of the best in the world to be a high
performing athlete or whatever fill-in
the blank artist you we would not be
pushing our kids yeah the wash out is
incredible yeah and I think most of us
so what you're describing you're you're
framing it as the um infinite in finite
game and I when I hear you speak that
that to me is a performance-based
identity right because it's goal-based
right yeah like I'm going to be the
right that's exact that framing is and
the opposite Mastery 100% that is they
they're high performers and they and
they have the the resume to prove their
high performance but then when you peel
the onion and the day after the career
the day after the dream
accomplished nothing scare fear I
actually uncertainty doubt for who for
for the high performer for the high
performer and even if they don't achieve
the the dream which is more likely most
people will not become super mod or you
know Prof high profile you know athletes
Etc but I've defined myself by thing
that I actually didn't accomplish then I
think it's even worse oh this is a tough
this is one of the reasons I think when
I speak to folks in the you know
corporate spaces is like purpose is a
big deal yeah like what am I doing like
what am I really doing I mean we're on
this radical Rock spinning around I
don't even know how I got into this body
we're using this madeup language right
now to try to connect yeah to try to
think about our experience together to
try to be just a little bit better and I
think that
the common the commonality amongst
people that I can see that that binds us
is we all want a great life yeah not
just a high performing life what is that
but we want the a great life with this
short amount of time that we're here and
that's where that conversation about
purpose what am I doing here and I think
it's a bit of a right of passage to
adulthood to have a sense of what am I
doing with my time here and it does not
need to be this Grand thing it can be to
be a great part partner to my spouse it
can be to you know to be a great dad it
can be to you know have fun and bring
joy to other people in my neighborhood
it does not need to be like serial
entrepreneurship like whomever fill in
the blanks it doesn't have to be that
but to have a sense of purpose is huge I
want to go back to that confidence thing
at some point in life we all struggle
with it nobody is immune no it's state
specific meaning that it's it's it's
like moment to moment confidence in one
moment and nothing the next that's right
depending on what I'm doing or who I'm
talking to depending on what you're
saying to yourself about that chall yeah
that's such a good one it's the way
you're framing the conversation and if
you if you think if you entertain what
are they thinking about me then we're on
a slide for confidence like a downward
slide if you start like what is Simon
thinking about what I'm saying right now
is getting in the way of that calculus
which is is like no this is a I love
this conversation it's really
challenging to find the right words to
describe things that are hard to talk
about and this is what I really enjoy
doing that's how confidence will be
built for me you're bringing up
something
that look what did what did Teddy
Roosevelt say you know comparison is the
thief of Joy that's right yeah you know
and you're bringing up something which I
think is so easily understood and so
difficult to Doh it is well and good to
say don't care what other people think
about you we all know that grandma told
me that right Grandma told me that yeah
uh but how on Earth do I actually stop
caring about what people think about me
when as social animals I want to be
included I want to feel like I belong I
want to be trusted I want to be a member
of the tribe I want to be welcomed and
invited because not to be is to feel
alone to feel ostracized to feel brushed
aside we know what happens a social
animal left to their own devices is
destructive to others are destructive to
themselves and that's a whole different
topic you know I think it's right people
who hurt themselves and hurt others you
know yeah and that we thrash when we're
not connected and the thrashing makes
sense because our brains are wired for
safety yeah and belonging is safety yeah
you know the think about like the sheep
and the Wolves the sheep in the that are
in the middle of the pack are way safer
than the Sheep on the outside and way
safer than the Sheep that's kind of
wandered off so so being rejected by the
tribe is a form of a uh 200,000 years
ago a death sentence and yeah the
mamalian brain still freaks out yes now
and then so if you think about that
mechanism is still ancient brain modern
times it's still happening for us and
then you wrap the modern kind of
identity with what you do so when you go
out and do something I'm an executive
I'm a manager I'm a salesperson I'm a
CMO whatever it might
be and and you're getting data back that
it's it's not good and that can either
be objective numbers or a lift from an
eyebrow from your supervisor or whomever
or a iroll in a meeting that that is so
triggering to the survival brain that we
do something very predictable we'll
conform we will
contort we will
confront and and sometimes sometimes we
just cut off the relationship because
it's too much but think about the
conforming and confronting which are
they're all which is kind of fun no
science here just a nice alliteration
way for me to remember it but the
conforming is I might laugh at a joke or
go along with something that's slightly
offensive to my moral code to what I
think is right but that person has power
so I slightly conform we've all done it
yeah the contorting is where it becomes
we do it on dates yeah right to to be
liked to be liked yeah and then they
find out like wait you know you don't
think I'm funny what just happened here
the contorting is when it's really
problematic when we when we really do so
contortion is a an extreme full of of
con of conforming conforming yeah like I
might really you're literally abandoning
your moral code to be like to be in to
not get pushed out got it and that's
it's a form of loneliness right oh yeah
it's a fear and loneliness that you know
that if if they kick me out yeah I'm
kind of screwed yeah like I don't I
don't have a back stop
here uh okay okay so I'll tell you a
quick story and then I have to go back
to this question so I watched this
documentary um about flat earthers M
it's an okay documentary but the thing
that I loved about it was there's this
guy who who was the leader of one of the
the Flat Earth um organizations and they
consider themselves people of
Science and they have scientific
explanations for you know why the Earth
is flat and they conduct an experiment
to prove that the Earth is flat um spoil
alert they accidentally prove that it's
ruined um and they look at this science
they look at this experiment and they go
huh H and you know maybe we did the
experiment wrong you know but the leader
of the group he
recognizes what's going on here he's a
smart guy and he's because he's such an
Ardent flat earther he's been rejected
by his friends and family growing up his
only Community are other flat earthers
in this group and now he
recognizes that gig is up but he
actually doesn't come clean because if
he leaves that group he's got no one
yeah you know yeah that it's the same
with like some of the divide that we're
seeing politically you know they formed
such tight belonging ship that if cost
is so high the and they and they've cost
relationships getting into those groups
that's right that if I leave this group
I literally will have no one and that
fear is
so
real that as you said I do I do worse
than conform I contort yeah for
belonging yeah that's right yeah it it
And so there's this pervasive worry am I
going to be accepted or rejected by
others that is a very healthy um
pervasive survival tactic am I going to
get rejected or accepted by the tribe
when it when it bleeds into the words
you choose the clothes that you wear the
the conforming or contorting that you're
going to accept or not it becomes almost
a clinical
condition huh how would you diagnose
that um just it's not it doesn't meet
the clinical criteria for social anxiety
disorder it does not meet that um
allodoxaphobia is like the kind of the
fear of being out with other people it's
not that either but it's on that path
it's on that path well for fun I I na if
we were diagnosing our nation oh yeah so
we're a nation of
allodoxaphobia of people's opinions and
I think that we're on the Glide path
like the fear of people's opinions is
really quite High and the it's it makes
sense to me though because we live in a
performance-based culture yeah and in a
performance-based culture would make
sense that I would organically developed
a performance-based identity right and
then underneath that it would make sense
that I would St uh be anxious and hustle
hard and all that kind of stuff about
being my very best or being the best
which is now like my identity is wrapped
up in how well I do whatever I do and
I'm constantly scanning the world to see
if I'm okay are my numbers good are
people looking at me okay are they
laughing behind my back or with me like
what's happening so that it's it's an
exhaustive approach to see if I'm okay
is the problem and how do you get around
it I I this it's going to sound too
simple but because nothing's quite this
simple be very clear about your purpose
and you say why do you say purpose a
purpose-based identity if think about
any who inspires you Simon like like
Global Changers his with us or you know
no longer with us the people who inspire
me are not household names the ones that
are living anyway yeah they're certainly
not do do one that's a household name
that we can we can Vibe okay uh Martin
Luther King okay so Dr King Jr if he was
sitting in this conversation with us he
would probably be talking about Equity
he'd probably be talking about like
freedom of Rights the dream that he has
so this is all wrapped into his purpose
so when your purpose is clear and and
it's bigger than you and it is inspiring
and it matters to you you're trying to
get help mhm so you're want to pull
people in you can't solve it alone
Mike Simon can you guys help me like I
there's you know there's something here
that's bigger than all three of us and I
want to see if you know we can do
something special and so it's no longer
about identity it's about something far
larger so you your identity Fades away
and the thing that you're trying to
solve together um comes forward and
we're no longer managing identity and
ego but we're we're committing together
to a shared purpose it's that invitation
which is Go Go full circle back to
mastery
it it is an invitation to explore
potential that's really what Mastery is
and the invitation is always available
to
everybody each one of your listeners the
invitation is available right now to
fundamentally commit to a life that um
you are going to explore what what is
possible for you and it feels
overwhelming and you say where do I
start with this first just snap into
like in this brief amount of time that I
might be on this planet when I look back
what do I want to contribute to so start
with purpose but I think so how do you
help an athlete find their
purpose yeah well because they were
raised to perform yeah that's exactly
right and while they're in the league
that they're in whether it's the
Olympics or the NFL or NBA whatever it
might be the purpose is quite clear you
know so the purpose is given to them you
know win championships yeah and that
wears out at some point that's not
really a purpose though is it no that's
more of an outcome a goal but it's like
a binding thing for us together you know
but it falls it it it has the appearance
of purpose and it works for a period
that's right and again it's finite you
know in all all the ways that you would
articulate that and so um what it does
though it serves a bit of a placeholder
for them to know what it's like to be
part of something bigger where they
can't solve it on their own even
individual athletes whether it's a
golfer or singles tennis player they're
part of a team too yeah yeah and so um
so I think the question was more
tactical like how do I help people yeah
like yeah like like what it's because I
think look everybody's looking like the
rise of spirituality everybody's looking
for their sense of purpose you know I
mean I mean I wrote a book about it you
know uh uh what do you do how do you
take people on the journey to actually
help them answer the
question first is help them sit with the
pain that they feel I think one of the
greatest gifts we can give people is to
Hold Steady while they are
exploring the hardest parts of
themselves and so without judgment
without critique so a container yeah a
safe space a safe space not trying to
fix not trying to coach not trying to
solve anything but just hold the space
for them to explore the harder parts of
themselves to put words to the
emotionally charged parts of themselves
we all have pain suffering we all have
trauma micro massive traumas and it is
important to at least index and
understand those and most of us if you
stay with that first assumption that I
have is that we all got something we're
working
through that the response to unexamined
trauma is to protect ourselves from
around a a corner that was like a
hairpin corner and whatever and there's
smells and sounds all the kind of
classic examples of a PTSD moment well
it would make sense that maybe you don't
go around hair pin turns anymore or you
slow down or you're very cautious or you
grip your nails into the side of the if
somebody else is driving like we're
trying to protect ourselves from being
ret traumatized so we have to what we do
this I need to I need to I need to
underscore this we're not trying to
protect ourselves from dying we're
trying to protect our from being ret
traumatized because if you ask people
why are you freaking
out you know it's you're like they say
cuz I don't want to die but that's not
true I don't want to be ret traumatized
they didn't die from the thing they
didn't die from the thing yeah but it
was so but it was traumatizing it was so
jaring that they don't want that feeling
for an extended period of time again
that's exactly it it's not
post-traumatic it's not a revisiting of
the original trauma it's a fear of of
that trauma recurring correct that's
really important that's a huge Insight
yeah I was just going to say it was for
me that Insight was like cuz I saw it I
see it in sport as well so let me be
less dramatic than somebody almost dying
or fill in the blanks whatever trauma
The Listener is working through you can
also have it in sport so Seattle
Seahawks just for a moment we won the
Super Bowl in dramatic fashion it was
like wow like Super Bowl 48
uh 2013 okay a lot to a little a lot to
a little okay that's all that matters
yeah and it's really hard to go back the
next year and we got back the next year
and back to the Super Bowl yeah the
reason it's so hard is because your
coaches get plucked your teammates or
your your players um they get bigger
contracts from other teams so like and
there's like a 40 to 50% turnover on the
team so you got to recapture the culture
it is not a Glide path it's a hard thing
to do and we got back and we ended up
losing in the dramatic fashion as you
well remember it was like the half goal
line yeah and it was a sure thing that
the best running back in the in the
league was going to kind of walk it in
on Tom Brady's offensive our defensive
line and we're going to win back toback
which is really rare to do and we we we
made some mistakes and the ball was
turned over and we lost the game with
seconds to go on on the goal line right
okay
um it was so traumatizing nobody lost
their life right okay but that there's
no redundancy in the brain like this
part of the brain is for like hair ping
Cur Corners all death experiences and
losing games and this yeah it's the same
network right right like this highly
emotional oh my God what just happened
this is heavy I don't have a way to deal
with this right um and it was so
traumatizing for so many of the team
that um all of these mechanisms the next
year were were all of a sudden erecting
in our culture and it was really about
people not not putting them themselves
in a vulnerable position which is
required to be great so that they
wouldn't have that feeling again playing
not to lose yeah versus to win playing
that it wasn't my fault it's your fault
right you better be right and I'm not
going to put myself in a vulnerable spot
unless I know that you've figured out
why we're in this situation in the first
place right so now we were never so
everybody's a victim now yeah and so we
never got our noses pointed in the same
direction which is a very hard thing to
do and so trauma doesn't happen just
from the classic word of trauma it also
has all these other things that you know
are so emotionally volatile that they
can shape our psychology this is such a
big like the I love that you love this
yeah the bells are ringing
uh you know you look at our society
right now where you know Mass layoffs as
a mechanism to balance the books did not
exist in the United States prior to the
1980s wow it did not exist right layoffs
were used when your company faced an
existential crisis you were going
bankrupt and the only means we had was
to sacrifice our people just to keep the
company afloat but just missing the
quarter or missing the year like we're
profitable not as profitable as we had
hoped so you lose your job right
literally didn't exist wow yeah and the
the that's why people had one career
that's why it's why you had one career
they weathered the the Wall Street and
seite weathered and true loyalty existed
which is we'll take care of you and
you're going to give us your all for
your whole career and it was Mutual
you're going we're going to you're going
to give what you're going to we're going
to protect you company's going to Pro
give you offer you employment for your
whole life and in return you're going to
be super loyal and offer us your best
work you know you know what actually
Mutual yeah and you know what happened
okay so and then it became like a mafia
da thing which is I expect you to give
me the company loyalty but I'm going to
offer you nothing in return and so that
we I call that the extraction model I'm
you're going to give me everything and I
offer you nothing right and you're going
to like lose your relationship with your
kids and you should just be grateful
that I pay you yeah and by the way work
harder cuz someone else is going to take
your job that that extraction model was
a real thing for whatever reasons that
we could opine about and it's flipped
now though the workforce workers or um
people that are you know being employed
by large companies are saying yeah you
need to help me unlock I I think I think
what we're facing is more complicated
right and I think you're right but I
think the reasons how we got there are
not ideological that though it's
tempting to think it is I think it it's
it's it's traumatic right cool yeah
which is we've gone through you a a
generation lived through having no job
security it used to be believed that a
corporate job was stable and an
entrepreneurial venture was Insanity
like it was in it was insane because you
could lose you could lose everything
right but now we've created a corporate
culture where you can come in one day
thinking you're stably employed and
you've lost your job through no fault of
your own it's not a meritocracy it is
definitely not a so that's the the F the
the the fallacy and Folly is that a
corporate job these days is actually
more unstable than an entrepreneurial
venture which is considered extremely
high risk with an over 90% chance of
failure that's insane right that it's
been flipped on it head that's a cool
insight to and so and I think now you
look at the younger generation which is
everybody in the younger generation is
one degree away from a layoff my parents
got laid off no meritocracy no fault of
their own or my friend's parents or my
friends you know got laid off through no
fault of their own we're all one degree
away whether it's ourselves or somebody
else who got laid off again not a
meritocracy and so so the trauma of you
asked me to give you everything and be
and be loyal and I did and it got me
nothing or I watched other people my
friends family losed everything or my
parents lose everything I saw how it
affected my home [Β __Β ] you like how dare
you just demand and I don't think it's
ideological although I think people use
the language of ideology I think it's
your I think it's your Insight the fear
of being ret traumatized complet I
completely agree to add one one more
layer of
complexity um our kids if our kids were
you know High School College age and
that um it used to make sense that the
loneliest population or segment of the
population was 65 and above yeah the
loneliest segment in the United States
right now is 14 to 21 yeah so so that
type of like avoiding be being ret
traumatized and our kids are incredibly
lonely it's a pressure cooker and so
when I'm when I when I spend time with
uh of the corporate world we are we are
not talking about working harder the
hustle hard thing is um I can't ascribe
to it cuz I'm looking at people that are
exhausted and anxious and the message is
like from Elite Sport I want to show you
how we recover what happens behind the
Velvet Rope at Elite Sport is that we
spend way more time talking about daily
recovery then we talk about working hard
the environment is stimulating it's it's
great in so many ways
it's on the pressure is on in Elite
Sport the required vulnerability and
risk-taking in practice every day is
unbelievable way more than game day in
practice you've got um your peers that
are almost as good as you or in some
respects as good as
you waiting for you to make a mistake in
front of the coaches so that they can
get a shot and in particularly bad in
football that exactly and to be great
you have to you have to take a risk so
you've got to get to that messy Edge
where you don't know if you're going to
be successful or not because that's
require that vulnerability is required
to take the step to stay progressively
on a growth Arc it's really hard so day
in stress is on pressure is on day in we
need to recover in an intelligent way
and I just think that you know if we
could do a little bit better on how we
think about our future so that's anxiety
or purpose based um so when you say
future meaning not goal oriented but
rather what's the soul for
yeah so what what's the I'm I want to
win a game why I want a game so that I
become a champ why do you want to be
aamp and you keep going and going and
going until get to purpose that's not a
that's that's bigger that's bigger yeah
and you can also like I've got another
way to do that as well that is
absolutely a great exercise to do but if
we did some of that work and then um we
learned how to speak to ourselves to
back ourselves and to coach ourselves
and we're just a little bit better at
how we we worked with our own self selft
talk if you will um we figured out a
really thoughtful daily recovery program
because the stress is real we need equal
units of recovery every day and we could
start to migrate from that first pillar
of purpose we could start to just
dissolve our performance-based identity
and and be more aligned with purpose so
there's a twofold on that first one yes
no your purpose and what that does is it
it it it just allows your your identity
of like I have to perform to start to
evaporate I have to perform to matter it
starts to evaporate
and I'm performing because I want to
contribute to something that's really
meaningful and it's not Wall Street
bottom line yeah yeah yeah yeah it's
maybe to F the what are things that
you've learned over the course of your
life and career that you have adopted
yourself to Aid in your own recovery if
recovery is more important as important
if not more important than than than
yeah I can give you a ton of tactics and
I'm happy to do that right now um the
first is is like if you think about the
energy system that we have I want to be
this is going to this will make sense
for Gen xers and above but maybe not
below I want to be a really efficient
carburetor so I go to sleep at night and
I fill up all these fuel reserves and a
carburetor is this thing that sits on
top of the engine and it decides based
on how much you accelerate or put your
foot on the pedal how much fuel goes
into the
engine and if I am really nervous and
anxious and quick to frustration or int
tolerance and I'm kind of edgy and
snappy the carburetor is wide open and
energy is just coursing through the
system needlessly so because I haven't I
haven't modulated the way that I'm
seeing the world around me so the first
order of business is that I want to be
able to figure out how to see things as
opportunities rather than threats give
me an example let's say um let's say
you've got an opportunity to pitch an
idea to a board or VC firm or somebody
and
this is the last this feels like the
last one you deny deny deny deny you
know you're kind of on your the end of
your your bu actor or whatever it
doesn't matter yeah and how do you walk
in staying hopeful and seeing as an
opportunity as opposed to like if this
doesn't go well I don't know how I'm
going to eat yeah I don't know what I'm
going to
do there's a discipline required there's
a mental discipline to speak to yourself
about yourself about the opportunity
that you're working towards that is just
required and so opportunity versus
threat is kind of a big deal in the way
you frame just about anything I love it
when they mic athletes yeah and you hear
that football player going you got this
you got to do it you got this right you
got this you can do it and that's not
everybody that's just that's just some
Savages if you will yeah but I love the
fact that it's that the at the most
elite levels they still need the self
pep we all did we all do whether it's
sounds like that so here's here here's a
fun way to so I don't want to go away
from recovery but on this thread is that
one of the things that I help um
Executives and athletes alike is to know
your ideal performance
mindset so in athletes we call it ICM
ideal competitive mindset so it's the
center of the bullseye all when when all
cylinders are firing what does that feel
like what's going on inside know that
feeling that's right what does that feel
like and what are the what's the so so
it's like a bang bang experience
thoughts and feelings right thoughts and
emotions if you will so know it name it
put some sort of name on it you could
name it I don't know tiger lies you
could name it Kenny Kenny whatever that
means right yeah name it any that's
funny that's really funny so you name it
anything I wasn't actually thinking of a
name but like so like some athletes like
these two Olympians I'm working with
right now she calls hers free flow and
so that's nice it's like this free
openness but there's a there's um a flow
to the way that she's you know that's
her ideal competitive mindset that being
said is that now now everything that you
do prior to the performance is really to
get to the crescendo of the ICM or the
IPM ideal performance mindset if you're
not in sport so the way that you
physically warm up but the way that you
brush your teeth the way you get into
your car get out of your car the way
that you walk into a threshold the way
you tie your tie the way all of those
things that you do you there little
threshold moments to back yourself to
build yourself to be close just a little
closer to the
ICM and if you when you do that over
time before you know it that ICM feels
real familiar huh so you can practice
putting yourself in an ideal State and
so you you so you're just more likely to
get there more often that's the point
yeah like all the really good stuff is
right underneath the surface this is
good yeah so when you get knocked away
knocked down knocked sideways you that
the good stuff is still under there when
I say good stuff I mean the way that you
speak to yourself it's positive
productive it's like building you as
opposed to being critical or frustrated
or like pulling you you know scraping at
your core in
general if you thought about types of
thoughts there's one bucket of thoughts
which is they they create
space and another bucket of thoughts
that create constriction so when I say
uh to myself like I'm really agile I'm
really good on my feet um I can do hard
things those are two things that to me
create space and on the constriction
side when I say things to myself like um
don't [Β __Β ] this one up now or um make
sure you're crisp or there's a lot
riding on this thing now that creates
tension for me so I don't want to be
naive that there's maybe something not
riding on a moment but I need to create
space because my brain is already trying
to help me activate towards this thing
to to get me up for this thing that I've
I've deemed to be important this is the
threat response in our brains so I have
my sophisticated approach is to try to
be able to back all that intensity down
so I need thinking patterns that create
space so I can smile a little bit so I
can be more fluid in the way that I'm
adjusting to an unfolding unpredictable
moment I learned something pretty early
in my career I thank goodness I learned
it that I think is what you're talking
about and I learned to reframe a tense
moment to from two from two yeah so for
example um just as my career was sort of
getting to go like I find myself sharing
stages with people who are way better
than me like they're famous they're
powerhouses and I'm like what the hell
am I doing here right and now my fear
that my performance is going to be
substandard I won't live up to the
reason they invited me all of that self
talk all of that stuff just like I'm the
weakest one here you know and I learned
to reframe it like this is the most
exciting thing in the world that they
let me share the stage with these
amazing people and what ended up
happening was I let go of the
competitive nature like I didn't have to
be better than them I didn't even have
to be as good as them I just got to
share the stage with them regard of how
I did and how cool is it for me that's
it yeah and I started to have my nerves
became excitement yeah that's it so the
way you frame anything is materially
important public speaking is one of the
hardest things for people and it's
because there's no physical risk it's
all identity risk it's all ego risk
eyeballs are the danger in in these
moments is that if you are clear about
the purpose
MH not about the performance the whole
thing Chang es and you can walk on stage
and like help to get people enrolled or
engaged or interested or create an
invitation for something that you are
passionate about it totally changes
everything did I ever share with you the
little insight I had between nerves and
excitement that I learned from the
Olympics so I was watching one of the
Olympics yeah and I I realized that all
of the
journalists asked all of the athletes
the same question are you nervous or
were you nervous right right and every
athlete gave the exact same answer no
I'm excited or no I was excited right
and it's I started to realize that if
you think about what the characteristics
of nervousness are like your heart
starts pounding your hands get clam you
start envisioning the future what are
the characteristics of excitement your
heart starts pounding your hands get
claim you start envisioning the future
right and these Elite athletes had
learned to interpret that data as
excitement and the reason the
journalists said were you nervous it's
because they would be nervous that's
exactly right right because that's why
they all ask the same question cuz
they're not Elite athletes yeah and
they're not practic deal with all of
that emotion and so I did a little
experiment on myself I was sitting on a
plane and we hit some really bad
turbulence I gripped the seat nerves and
I literally said to myself this is
exciting and I immediately relaxed yeah
I mean and I reframed my own data yeah
that's exactly how this works into a
different interpretation of a different
feeling and so there so when I get
nervous always say this is exciting and
it works it works that quickly if you
catch it early and you're aware if if
you catch it really like you know we
talk about trains of thought yeah you
know and so if you're if you're unaware
and that train of thought that thought
train has been running for a while and
then you're like wait a minute my
heart's pounding I feel like I just
threw up in my mouth wait this is
excitement you're way past too late so
if you can catch it really early that
you know like you can get on the nervous
train like you were just talking about
and if you get off on stop one and you
get onto the excitement train which is
what you're doing like no problems it's
easy most people like don't are are
struggle with the awareness piece first
and then struggle with the mental tool
to adjust so it's a awareness is step
one and then psychological tools are
step two there's I mean this is the
problem of having you on this podcast
which is I want to keep going for about
like another three hours I feel the same
both times I'm really frustrated because
I haven't finished all my questions yet
such a joy such a joy I could literally
talk to you forever we have so many
unanswered questions that we you know
started to pull some strings on um I
hope we can do this again I'd like to do
it a lot more and I'd like to have you
back on the fining Mastery any day yeah
so like maybe we'll just figure out a
way to is an excuse to have each other
in our lives a little B let's just do it
yeah let's just do it regularly all
right cool so good to see
you good stuff so good thank you mate if
you enjoyed this podcast and would like
to hear more please subscribe wherever
you like to listen to podcasts and if
you'd like even more optimism check out
my website simon.com for classes videos
and more until then take care of
yourself take care of each other
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