Is Being Fat a Choice? | Middle Ground

Summary

The transcript features a multifaceted discussion on body image, societal perceptions, and the impact of diet culture on individuals of varying body sizes. Participants share personal experiences and viewpoints on topics such as the pressures of societal beauty standards, the challenges of being labeled as 'fat' or 'skinny,' the influence of media figures like Lizzo, and the broader implications of obesity in America. The conversation delves into the complexities of body positivity, the stigmatization of obesity, and the role of diet culture in shaping attitudes towards food and health, ultimately highlighting the diversity of perspectives and the importance of personal agency in making health-related choices.

Takeaways

• 🧐 The debate on whether being fat or skinny is a choice highlights the complexity of factors influencing body weight, including genetics, environment, and personal choices.
• 🥗 Lizzo's public image is used as an example of promoting body positivity and acceptance, rather than encouraging obesity.
• 🏥 Individual experiences with weight struggles vary greatly, with some participants citing health issues, poor diet choices, and societal pressures as contributing factors.
• 🤸‍♀️ The conversation emphasizes the importance of breaking mental and physical barriers in addressing weight issues, suggesting that change is a personal journey.
• 🏋️‍♂️ The role of diet culture and its impact on individuals' relationship with food and body image is questioned, with some advocating for intuitive eating over restrictive diets.
• 🍔 The influence of fast food culture and the lack of healthy options in certain areas, known as food deserts, is discussed as a contributing factor to obesity.
• 🏥 Medical conditions such as thyroid issues and disabilities are highlighted as factors that complicate weight management and should not be overlooked in the obesity discussion.
• 🤷‍♂️ The group acknowledges that while choices are involved in maintaining a healthy weight, not all choices are equally easy or accessible for everyone.
• 🌍 The script touches on the systemic and societal issues that contribute to the obesity epidemic, including the role of corporations and media.
• 💔 The harmful effects of fat-shaming and skinny-shaming are compared, with a consensus that body shaming in any form should be addressed.
• 🌟 The body positivity movement is discussed, with differing opinions on whether it inadvertently promotes obesity by normalizing larger body sizes.

Q & A

What is the main topic of discussion in the transcript?

The main topic of discussion in the transcript is the debate surrounding body weight, body positivity, and the impact of societal norms and personal choices on being fat or skinny.

What are some factors mentioned in the transcript that contribute to a person's weight?

Some factors mentioned include personal choices, environment, upbringing, the company one keeps, genetic predispositions, and underlying health conditions such as thyroid issues.

How does the transcript address the concept of 'calories-in-calories-out'?

The transcript presents the 'calories-in-calories-out' concept as a simplified view of weight management, suggesting that for some people, going to the gym leads to a buff body, while not going results in not getting buff. However, it also acknowledges the complexity of factors affecting weight.

What is the perspective of the person who mentions having a thyroid issue?

The person with a thyroid issue suggests that their weight is not solely their fault and that they have faced barriers to addressing their weight due to a lack of support and understanding from others.

How does the transcript discuss the impact of societal standards on body image?

The transcript discusses societal standards through the lens of individuals who have faced criticism and judgment based on their body size. It highlights the struggle with body acceptance and the pressure to conform to societal beauty standards.

What is the argument made by the person who identifies as a disabled woman regarding weight management?

The disabled woman argues that weight management is not as simple as 'calories-in-calories-out' for her due to her disability. She emphasizes the need for a more nuanced understanding of weight that takes into account individual circumstances and health conditions.

What is the role of diet culture in the discussion?

Diet culture is discussed as both a potential problem and a source of positive change. Some participants argue that it can lead to unhealthy behaviors and obsession with food, while others see it as a way to provide resources and support for achieving health goals.

How does the transcript address the issue of shaming related to body weight?

The transcript acknowledges that both fat shaming and skinny shaming can be harmful, but there is a consensus that fat shaming is generally worse due to the systemic and societal biases against larger bodies.

What is the stance of the person who mentions Lizzo in the transcript?

The person argues that while Lizzo promotes body acceptance and self-love, there is a concern about the normalization of obesity, which they view as unhealthy, and the potential mixed messages this sends to society.

How does the transcript explore the concept of 'food deserts'?

The transcript discusses 'food deserts' as areas lacking access to healthy food options, which can contribute to obesity and poor health. However, there is also a counterpoint made that living in a rural area with limited access to unhealthy food options might not necessarily lead to an unhealthy diet.

What is the overall sentiment towards the body positivity movement in the transcript?

The overall sentiment towards the body positivity movement is mixed. While some participants see it as a way to promote self-acceptance and challenge societal norms, others express concern that it may inadvertently contribute to unhealthy lifestyles and obesity.

Outlines

00:00

🤔 Debate on Body Image and Personal Choices

The paragraph discusses the debate around body image, focusing on whether being fat or skinny is a personal choice. Participants express differing opinions, with some arguing that willpower and environment play significant roles in one's body size, while others share personal experiences of struggling with food and weight due to socio-economic backgrounds, health issues, and societal pressures. The conversation touches on the impact of diet culture, personal choices, and the need for a balanced approach to health and body acceptance.

05:01

🧘‍♀️ The Set Points Theory and Body Acceptance

This section delves into the concept of 'Set Points,' which suggests that bodies naturally gravitate towards specific weights. The discussion highlights the complexity of weight management, acknowledging that while personal choices are involved, external factors such as stress, emotional eating, and health conditions can significantly influence one's ability to maintain a desired weight. The conversation also addresses the importance of body acceptance and the limitations of diet culture in promoting healthy lifestyles.

10:03

🏥 Health Concerns and the Impact of Obesity

The paragraph focuses on the health implications of obesity, with participants sharing personal experiences and societal observations. The conversation covers the challenges faced by individuals with obesity, including health issues like lymphedema and the difficulty in finding suitable clothing. Participants also discuss the societal biases and misconceptions about obesity, emphasizing the need for a more nuanced understanding of health that goes beyond body size.

15:04

🌽 The Reality of Food Deserts and Accessibility

This section explores the issue of food deserts and their impact on health and weight. Participants discuss the lack of access to healthy food options in certain areas and the resulting reliance on unhealthy food choices. The conversation also touches on the personal experiences of individuals living in rural areas and the misconceptions about the availability of healthy food. The participants highlight the need for better infrastructure and public transportation to address these issues.

20:06

💃 The Influence of Media and Body Positivity

The paragraph examines the role of media and public figures like Lizzo in promoting body positivity and acceptance. The discussion contrasts the messages of those who encourage unhealthy weight gain with those who advocate for self-acceptance regardless of body size. Participants express concerns about the normalization of obesity and the potential health risks associated with it, while also acknowledging the importance of representation and inclusivity in media.

25:09

🏋️‍♂️ The Struggle with Diet Culture and Healthy Lifestyle

This section addresses the impact of diet culture on individuals' relationships with food and body image. Participants share personal experiences with restrictive diets, the pressures to conform to certain body standards, and the mental health challenges that arise from these societal expectations. The conversation emphasizes the need for a shift towards intuitive eating and sustainable lifestyle changes, rather than temporary diet fixes.

30:10

🤝 Reflections and Learning from Diverse Perspectives

The final paragraph summarizes the participants' reflections on the previous discussions. Individuals express gratitude for the opportunity to engage with different perspectives and share their personal journeys with body image, weight, and health. The conversation concludes with a recognition of the complexities involved in discussions around body size and health, highlighting the value of open dialogue and mutual understanding.

Keywords

💡Body Positivity

Body positivity is a social movement that advocates for the acceptance of all body types and the rejection of societal standards of beauty. In the video, this concept is discussed in relation to the influence of celebrities like Lizzo, who promotes self-acceptance, and how it may contribute to the normalization of obesity.

💡Diet Culture

Diet culture refers to the societal pressure and the surrounding environment that encourages individuals to adopt certain eating habits or lifestyles with the goal of achieving a specific body shape or size. In the video, participants discuss the negative impacts of diet culture, such as the promotion of fad diets and the potential for disordered eating behaviors.

💡Health

Health in this context refers to the physical well-being of individuals, often linked to body weight and lifestyle choices. The video discusses the complexities of health, including the misconception that being skinny equates to being healthy and the reality that health encompasses more than just physical appearance.

💡Obesity

Obesity is a medical condition characterized by excessive body fat to the extent that it negatively affects a person's health. In the video, obesity is a central topic of discussion, with participants debating the causes, societal attitudes, and health implications of being overweight.

💡Shaming

Shaming in the context of the video refers to the act of criticizing or demeaning individuals based on their body size, whether they are overweight or underweight. The discussion revolves around the impact of shaming on individuals' self-esteem and the societal attitudes towards different body types.

💡Choice

Choice in this context refers to the personal decisions individuals make regarding their diet, exercise, and overall lifestyle, which can influence their body size and health. The video explores the idea that being fat or skinny is largely a matter of personal choice, with some participants arguing that willpower and environment play significant roles.

💡Genetics

Genetics in the context of the video refers to the hereditary factors that can influence a person's body size, metabolism, and susceptibility to weight gain. The discussion highlights that while lifestyle choices are important, genetic predispositions can also play a significant role in determining one's weight.

💡Food Deserts

Food deserts are areas where access to affordable and nutritious food is limited, often due to a lack of grocery stores or because the available food options are predominantly unhealthy. In the video, food deserts are discussed as a potential contributing factor to obesity and poor health outcomes.

💡Mental Health

Mental health refers to an individual's psychological and emotional well-being. In the video, mental health is discussed in relation to body image issues, societal pressures, and the impact of weight on self-esteem and overall mental state.

💡Lifestyle Change

Lifestyle change involves making long-term modifications to one's daily habits and routines to improve health or achieve specific goals, such as weight loss or maintenance. In the video, the concept is discussed as a more sustainable approach compared to temporary diets.

💡Intuitive Eating

Intuitive eating is a dietary philosophy that encourages individuals to listen to their body's hunger and fullness cues, and to eat without restrictions or guilt. It contrasts with diet culture by promoting a balanced and flexible approach to food and eating habits. In the video, intuitive eating is mentioned as a healthier alternative to restrictive dieting practices.

Highlights

The debate on whether being fat or skinny is a choice, with various perspectives considering environmental, genetic, and personal factors.

The influence of societal standards and expectations on individuals' body image and self-perception.

The impact of diet culture and societal pressures on mental health, with some individuals experiencing eating disorders due to these pressures.

The discussion on the role of personal choice in maintaining a certain weight, with some arguing that it's more complex than just a matter of willpower.

The importance of body positivity and acceptance, as exemplified by Lizzo's message of self-acceptance versus the promotion of unhealthy body standards.

The challenges faced by individuals from different body types, including the difficulties of finding clothing and societal discrimination.

The exploration of the term 'obese culture' and whether it promotes unhealthy lifestyles.

The comparison between the experiences of skinny and overweight individuals, highlighting the different forms of body shaming and societal expectations.

The discussion on the systemic issues of fat discrimination and how it affects various aspects of life, including employment and healthcare.

The debate on the effectiveness of diet culture, with some advocating for intuitive eating and a balanced lifestyle over restrictive dieting.

The impact of diet culture on the fashion industry, with discussions on the availability and cost of plus-size clothing.

The exploration of the concept of 'food deserts' and their potential contribution to obesity and unhealthy eating habits.

The discussion on the role of media and celebrities in shaping body standards and the potential normalization of obesity.

The debate on whether body shaming, whether directed at overweight or underweight individuals, is ever justified or beneficial.

The personal stories shared by participants regarding their struggles with body image, weight, and societal expectations.

The examination of the potential positive and negative effects of diet culture on individuals and society as a whole.

The conclusion that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to diet and body image, and that personal choice and societal pressures must be balanced with health and self-acceptance.

Transcripts

- I'm sorry there's a- - Very different, yeah.

- Differences between the people

who are telling people, "Go out and get fat."

Versus a Lizzo who's saying, "Accept me the way I am."

- She's not just saying, "Accept me the way I am."

She is dressing extremely scantily clad

and then saying, "If you don't think that it's normal

for a morbidly obese person

to be wearing a G-string in the middle of public,

then you're the problem."

(upbeat music)

- [Host] Being fat or skinny is a choice.

Agreers? (footsteps clomping)

- Of course, not every factor is purely choice.

I don't think that every factor is,

but I do think a majority of it is,

and in most cases for most people, being skinny

or being fat is about willpower.

It's about the environment you grow up in-shore

but who you choose to associate with.

What sort of things you choose to listen to, who you choose

to kind of have as your friends around you and support you.

All of those things are choices that you can make

that will lead you closer

towards being one or the other.

- I know what I do with my body.

I know what I put into it, day-in-and-day-out.

I choose not to eat some days.

I choose you know, how I want to look

and I don't fault anyone for how they want to look

or how they want to be, but I think it's a choice at the end

of the day.

I'm very, you know, always wish-washy on

how I want to be presented

and if I want to gain weight or not.

But the only person that's gonna gain the weight at the end

of the day is me and me myself.

- For me, it's calories-in-calories-out.

Go to the gym, you'll get buff.

Don't go to the gym, you won't get buff.

I understand that there's genetics that could cause you

to want to eat more,

but even with the genetics that cause you to want

to eat more, the same solution is calories-and-calories-out.

- I think that the whole choice is, you know,

always determined on who they are

and it's not gonna just be a thing done overnight.

- Yeah, yeah. - It takes a lot of,

I think it's like breaking the barrier

and breaking a lot of things.

Not only your body but also breaking your mental state.

- Sure. - And, again,

that depends on who you are

and what you want to go through.

- Disagreers. (footsteps clomping)

- I felt like as a toddler I always viewed myself as big.

I grew up in a very like poor home.

So where my mom couldn't provide the meals

that she could healthily.

So when we would get like free meals even then it would be

like canned food and it would be like very much food

that's not as edible.

It was food for us, yes.

But then I felt like once it reached a point

where I was old enough to try to make my own choices,

I made all of the wrong choices.

I wasn't eating, and I was only eating like grapes

and lettuce and I was mainly because I was in a sport

and that sport just worked me out so hard

and it was to the point where I just was scared to eat.

I didn't like it.

I would only drink water.

- When you were eating grapes and lettuce, were you thin?

- I was as thin as I could be.

- Were you still big though? - I was still big

but that was the skinniest I've ever been

and that's coming from somebody who was only eating

somewhat salads that are just fruit and lettuce and water

and maybe ice right before a practice.

- Do you think that right now you would not be capable

of becoming a thin woman if you wanted to?

- I possibly would be capable of becoming a thin woman,

but since I was young, I was supposed to get blood tested

probably when I was very, very young and I never did.

And they had mentioned that it could have been

because of my weight and how that connects with my thyroid.

I never made the connection

and I never had like that leaning parent

to be like, "Go and get checked out.

Go and do this," like your weight is

probably not your fault.

It was always like, "Your weight is your fault

so that's your issue."

- I mean I also struggle with, you know,

thyroid and my own blood issues, I'm not quite sure

but I do see an endocrinologist and I go see a doctor.

It's a choice to do the requisite steps.

It's a choice to go grocery shopping instead of going

to fast food when it's easy.

It's a choice when you're grocery shopping to go

to the outer aisles and like not go into the bread section

and not go into the junk food section.

These are all choices.

- As a disabled woman, I can't do a lot of the things

that people say, "Calories-in-calories-out.

Oh, you gotta go work out and exert it."

A lot of the things that are typical, "Oh, this is

how you lose weight, put me in the hospital."

I have to navigate weight differently.

I have to look at it differently.

My weight is the way it is because of medication

because doctors put me in this position

and I had to learn, okay, am I going to be so hateful

of my own body that I am going to backlash

and put myself through extreme gym nights

through keeping myself from eating things

that I should be able to eat.

You should be able to have a balance.

You should be able to go into the junk food aisle

like other skinny people do

and still not have to worry about gaining 20 pounds.

- But I don't think skinny people go

into this junk food aisle. - No, they do.

- They certainly do. - Yes, they do.

- Need a lot of junk food.

- I mean- - A Lot of junk, yeah.

- I mean my DoorDash would tell you otherwise, like-

- There's a thing called Set Points.

There's a ton of research on it that your body likes

to be at specific weights. - Right.

- It likes to be in a specific way.

So if you are fighting yourself to lose weight

by not eating, over-exercising,

and you are damn near killing yourself

to be at a specific weight, your body's unhappy.

- It's important to note that a choice can be harder

for people to make due to conditions in their life.

But at the end of the day, it's still a choice.

I could say that I had food addiction, I looked

to food when I was stressed and this and that and this,

and so, it's harder for me to choose it than for someone

who has like the perfect lifestyle who, someone

who has parents who are giving them this and that and this.

But I definitely still acknowledge

that it was my choice at the end of the day when I go there

and I look and I see,

hmm, should I order a second hamburger?

I'm the one choosing whether or not I order

that second hamburger.

I'm the one making that choice.

- Hey, you all right?

- I don't know, I've been feeling kind of lost lately.

- And how is this helping?

- Well I don't know to be honest.

I'm just trying to figure out who I am.

- Well, I don't wanna hold you back with what works.

You might have a breakthrough if you stare long enough

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Now let's get back into the episode.

- [Host] I would rather be skinny than fat.

Can the agreers please step forward?

(footsteps clomping)

- I think there's a lot of different struggles when it comes

to being a bit bigger

and I have a sister that is very like she's 400 pounds

and she struggles a lot.

She has lymphedema and the to shower's really, really hard.

So I do think for like an overall happy life

and like zero struggle, I think I'd rather be skinny.

- I think that it is common in society

to want to be skinny.

I think the average person typically wants to be skinny.

I'm actually surprised that I didn't see

more people come forward on that question.

People treat you better.

It is what is considered the standard of beauty.

Your life expectancy is longer, you tend to be healthier.

- I'm also really tall, I'm six-foot-six,

so I kind of wish I could just pick a single struggle

because finding the clothes

and things like that when you're bigger

both ways can make it really hard.

So if I was skinnier, at least,

that's one less thing I have to worry about.

But also, I've got two kids and a wife

and I'm taking care of them, and as you pointed out,

I definitely think that I am at less health risks

if I'm a skinnier person,

if I'm a healthier person in that capacity

and I would much rather be that so

that I could be around for my kids longer.

- [Host] Can the disagreers please step forward?

(footsteps clomping)

- I am speaking as someone

who actually was a former smaller person

and I had the most body insecurities when I was small.

I was constantly living in fear of gaining weight

and having people tell me, "Oh,

don't gain weight, don't do this.

Make sure that your weight is the same."

And once I finally gained weight, I realized

that first off, life wasn't over.

I didn't feel any need to

not engage in life the previous way that I had

and the attention that I got was different.

But even as a smaller person you get negative attention.

And rather than trying to control my body to avoid

that negative attention, I would prefer

to address the situation as a society,

make it more accessible for everybody

to where we aren't feeling like I have to be a certain way

that's normal in order

to be treated like a human being and respected.

- If I could counter because I was a bit bigger

when I was younger, and that's when I was the most insecure,

I would look in the mirror.

I did have family members that were skinny

but then I had a family member that was much bigger

and just the way that I perceived myself, I hated it.

And I even became anorexic to like not be big.

- I don't think skinny always equates to being healthy.

- Exactly. - Absolutely.

- I am fairly skinny.

I'm six-five, I'm 140 pounds, last time I checked

and I'm severely underweight

and I know about this on a day-to-day basis.

That being said, I don't know

where I'd wanna lean at a appropriate weight level,

but I think it's important to understand

for some skinny people it's,

we're not living a great life by any means.

And sometimes I feel like that's always kind

of lost in translation

when they see someone who's really skinny.

- I guess it depends on what you mean When you think

of the term skinny, are you thinking

of just like an average-weight person

or are you thinking of how you are now.

- I'm the average weight for like women in America.

so, if we're talking about an average,

like I'm gonna be the closest.

If your biggest priority is to be at a smaller body,

you need to reassess your priorities.

- Yeah. - Focused on health.

- In the immediate tie between skinniness

and health, like you emphasized, there is such a gap

between one, the research,

'cause the research has a huge fat-phobic bias in it.

And there has been research that shows

that they aren't even, especially

during let's say COVID,

and the correlation between obesity, they rushed

through those studies so fast

because in society's mind, "Oh,

of course, a fat person is gonna equal someone

who's gonna get sick faster is gonna say it's sick easier."

It was an easy jump.

So they didn't do all of the testing

that they were supposed to do.

They didn't check their bias didn't.

- So, if by saying the study is bias, you're saying

that the study didn't account for the variable

that obesity may also take a factor into.

It's just that there's so many variables in humanity

that these pharmaceutical companies could only account for

so many during their trials

and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're bias,

however, you wanna talk about bias in studies

actually, recently we've been doing the opposite.

So for instance, a lot of our studies have been based on BMI

and so we've been showing

that, oh, fat people aren't necessarily extremely unhealthy

if we look at people with a certain BMI.

However, bodybuilders also have a really high BMI

and so they get counted into that category.

And so it wasn't until very recently that they equated for

that mistake and it shows, oh, my goodness,

being fat is actually extremely unhealthy.

Like way, way more unhealthy than we ever realized.

- You can't gauge health by looking at somebody.

like none of my health issues,

all of them precipitated my weight gain.

But I always get assumed, "Oh, don't you wanna be skinny so

that you don't have a cane anymore

and you don't feel the way you feel," and it's like, "No,"

'cause I have lupus and I'm always gonna feel like

like ACPS, it's gonna deteriorate, it's gonna continue.

- [Host] America has an obesity problem.

(footsteps clomping)

- I wanna sit next to you. - Oh, absolutely, you can.

- I think it's pretty clear you look at the weight

of the average American, you see

how obesity has affected not just children, I mean the fact

that we have more younger and younger people

who are looking heavier and heavier

and you see that like, you know, the way

that weight affects us as a society

and you compare that to how we were in the past now, not

that we should always, you know,

we shouldn't compare ourselves to the era

of the Great Depression when people just couldn't find food.

Of course, but people are heavier now in an unhealthy way

and people are eating unhealthy.

They are eating it through unhealthy access to food.

They're eating diets high in seed oils,

they're eating high corn syrup,

they're doing all this kind of stuff that's not good

for them that we didn't used to do.

And it's bad, it's not a good thing, it's an epidemic.

It needs to be quashed in some capacity.

- There's so much access to just-

- Junk food?

- Anything, like it's so crazy these days,

and you know, I'm so surprised

that we're actually supporting a lot of this, you know,

and there's always people like, "You know, like it's fine

that we have like three McDonald's like on the same street

and it's just like we don't think

that this is adding to the problem."

- What I think is really sad about that is

so many people in America just see the profit in it.

I don't wanna say I know that these people know the problem,

but it's like how can you not see the problem?

They have to see it and just not care.

They have to just be like, "Well, we're gaining profit.

Do you see how much this McDonald's is making?"

Put another one across the street.

Like that's just like how it is.

- That's the corporations, it's the medical industry.

Having a fat country makes us money.

- It doesn't help that our cities aren't walkable either.

America's a country of non-walkable cities.

- That is why I wavered a little bit

because I think we have a problem with how to treat obesity.

I think we have a problem with how to make it so

that it is not an epidemic.

This is a systemic thing that we are in a society

and in an environment that breeds this

and we are doing it to ourselves.

We are doing it to our children and our corporations

and our industries are doing it to us

and they aren't having to take responsibility for it.

- And they're encouraging it with media-

- So, I was literally gonna bring that up,

be the mukbangs and like all those videos

that just come up to trends for people.

- Not only the mukbangs but also like Lizzo

and other big like media. - Lizzo's

- I'm sorry, there's a very big difference

between the people who are telling people go out

and get fat versus a Lizzo saying, "Accept me the way I am."

- She's not just saying, "Accept me the way I am."

She is dressing extremely scantily clad.

And then saying, "If you don't think that it's normal

for a morbidly obese person

to be wearing a G-string in the middle of public,

then you're the problem."

And they're trying to normalize society

to this obese culture, which is extremely unhealthy, and-

- What is an obese culture?

- A culture which like normalize

(speakers talking over each other)

- Look, obesity's already normal, so it's-

- I don't think it should be normalized.

And it wasn't normal just a couple of decades ago.

- What's the difference between a obese person,

myself walking around in a G-string

or a bathing suit as I do

almost every day and a skinny person?

Like is it okay that the skinny person is doing that?

- I don't think so, but- - I don't think that-

- I get the whole public thing

- Or to say that when Lizzo does it, is the same

as a Victoria's Secret angel, it's just not the same.

- Yeah, what's the difference?

- What you mean?

Are you telling me they look, you're telling me it doesn't-

- I'm not saying they look the same but-

- Well, I mean Lizzo goes (speakers talking over each other)

- The implication.

So if I walk down the street, oh, I'm a runway model,

I'm a print and runway model.

I have walked down a runway in a thong.

So me doing that is shameful.

But a skinny model is okay.

- Like a Victoria's Secret model.

- I don't know if I used the phrase shameful.

I don't think that we, as a society,

should be modeling obesity.

- So, we're not modeling obesity,

I'm modeling the lingerie that obese people need to be able

to have availability to buy, yeah.

- So they've always had the ability to buy-

- We have not. - The lingerie-

(speakers talking over each other)

- It was like almost $20. - Yeah.

- And you go to like any other Walmart, any Target

and like all these underwears aren't special for like five

to like $20 and stuff.

- Well, it does take more fabric to make it.

- It does take more fabric to make it.

- They use it as an excuse but you make yards

of fabric for gowns.

- Like it's a Small a different price

than an extra large or a large?

- It is, yeah, and we're willing for 3XL shirts,

I gotta pay more money.

- I think people view models and Instagram people

and all of us who are plus-size

and proud as we're pushing this obese lifestyle.

- Yes. - No, I am pushing

the fact that this is what I live in,

this is my life and I need other people who feel this way

to say, "Hey, I wanna be able

to wear clothes that look cute too.

- I do think there's a problem with obesity in America,

but I think it's a first-world-country problem

because it's spread across the globe.

And also, I don't see it as a problem.

I do feel like health-wise,

people should try to be healthier.

But there's no perfect body, there's no perfect person,

there's no perfect size.

And there's people who are underweight.

There's a lot of them, and then there's a lot of people

who are overweight.

So I really don't see it as like a problem.

But just to touch on what you were saying,

because I am in the fashion industry, I want it

to become a fashion designer.

My dad was one, and they buy 10 rolls

of fabric for one price.

So it really doesn't cost that much to make underwear.

- Sure, but don't you also have to worry about distribution?

I mean if the average person is let's say

in between Small, Medium, Large

and you're sending clothes out for those, you know,

you could send out 10,000 of this,

10,000 of that, 10,000 of that.

You can't always send out 10,000 3XLS

because you're not gonna have that many people fitting

in the 3XL.

- No, because there's somebody who works in marketing

and they research that that area, there's a census.

So we have a database of what type of people are there.

Now we don't know who's going in there,

but we know the type of people that live in that area

and the type of the people that come and visit the area.

So that person is doing their job accordingly,

and usually, large sizes are sold out.

- Okay, so somebody brought up the food desert earlier.

I can't even think of an area that would have a

so-called Food Desert.

- Sorry, can someone explain like maybe just

for my ignorance, I'm guessing a food desert is

just, there's no food anywhere?

- No, it's healthy options for food.

So you can go into certain low-income areas

and you'll see a Starbucks, a McDonald's, a Chick-fil-A

but there's no Trader Joe's

- A food desert actually properly,

there isn't any, like for a long period

of driving there's one gas station

and a liquor store, then you have to drive two more miles

to hit the next grocery store.

- But with the food desert, it's not just

that there can be a grocery store there,

but if I am making minimum wage, I'm not gonna spend all

of my money on

what is gonna last me two meals versus

what's gonna last me an entire week.

- Or if I'm on EBT

and I have specific things that I have to choose

to buy versus what I can't buy.

- So, I'm born and raised in Colorado, in the outskirts,

there's so many small towns

that you don't even know that they're there,

Most of 'em you won't see on a map,

but if you're from there then you'll know

and they all have to drive a decent amount to be able to go

to an actual grocery store.

- But how often are you going grocery shopping?

Maybe like once every two weeks would be typically normal.

(speakers talking over each other)

- You have to do a drive once a week.

So you're making a drive once a week,

once every two weeks.

(speakers talking over each other)

- If I don't have a car- - I don't enjoy it.

- And if you don't have, usually,

these food deserts also have

very poor public transportation options.

So you are left with people who are stranded.

- Yeah, but then what are they eating at all?

- Yeah, unhealthy crap.

- No, but how are they surviving at all-

- whether they go through the drive-through,

they don't get a car to go everywhere.

They usually, what I've seen when I go

to those rural towns and those rural places is,

they have chickens and they have animals.

And guess what, that's,

you can get some healthy food outta that.

Having eggs and protein, things like that.

I think I would be healthier if I lived rurally.

In fact, my wife and I are trying to leave the State

so we're not near all the Uber Eats and all the stuff-

- I grew up in a town of 500.

The obesity problem there was not as significant

as say in LA. - Mm.

- And we talk about like food deserts and stuff,

the nearest Walmart where I grew up was 45 minutes

in any direction.

The nearest McDonald's was nowhere near

to be seen for a long time.

So when I hear these like,

and there could be some evidence there

as like the obesity problem is very low-lift.

- Were there grocery stores in your small town?

- Yes, like I'm like kind of baffled

by the- - Oh, thank you.

- Maybe I just need to go out there

and like experience the food deserts.

But like there was grocery stores where I grew up.

Just because we lived in the middle

of nowhere doesn't mean we didn't have access to food.

And actually, and I have to agree, we did have access

to healthy food, very healthy food all the time.

I don't think this is a big

of an issue in my personal opinion.

- [Host] Fat shaming is worse than skinny shaming.

(footsteps clomping)

- So, I do agree

that fat shaming is worse than skinny shaming.

Just overall entirely the way

that people like comment on people's weight,

compared to somebody's skinny.

They usually don't comment on somebody's skinny.

They don't think there's something wrong with them.

They don't like,

they'll maybe say like, "Oh, you're very thin.

Do you want to eat a cheeseburger?"

But that's not as bad as telling somebody you eat 10, stop,

and you don't even know that they're eating 10.

- Fat shaming is a systemic problem.

You're not gonna not get a job because you're too skinny.

Skinny bodies are praised in our society whereas fat bodies,

like I don't get it as often as other people

but I get a lot of comments on my Instagram

that are saying like, "You're really beautiful

but you would look a lot better if you lost 50, 60 pounds."

(footsteps clomping)

- Something that I always get a lot

of comments on is my masculinity as a man

because of how skinny I am.

It's always something that I've always kind of dealt with.

My favorite comment is always I look like

a sickly ill Victorian child.

And- - That's horrible.

- Sorry, I don't mean to laugh at that.

- No, no, no, I don't, it doesn't bother me as much.

But this idea that skinny people can't

also feel, get these kind of comments are just

kind of mind-blowing, that doesn't mean that they're,

you know, that one side is getting worse than the other.

I think that there are both sides getting piled on

just at different varying degrees.

- I think we're conflating two things as well.

So there's a difference between fat-shaming

and fat-discrimination.

Fat-shaming is an aspect of fat-discrimination.

But some of the things you were touching on are

specifically societal and systemic fat discrimination

that goes into our medical system.

It goes into employment, it goes into all

of our civil rights as fat people

that skinny people don't necessarily have that same issue.

And I come from cultures

where they straight-out called out skinny people.

You look like bones, oh, fuck it all, like all of that.

So I watched my cousins go through it.

I went through it when I would get too skinny.

As people, we are just too scrutinized

when it comes to our bodies.

We don't let people live.

- But I think that's a good point.

You said you were called skin and bones when you got to-

- My cousin.

- What your, sorry, not whatever but your cousin.

So people using shame as a motivator to get your cousin

to not be too skinny.

Shame as a motivator is a powerful tool.

So the reason I sit over there is fat-shaming worse

than skinny-shaming.

Well, you could argue that shaming somebody in order

to motivate them towards a healthy lifestyle is

actually a good thing.

Now, I have a lot of empathy

'cause hearing your story about how you've been struggling

with this since you were a child-

- Since I was like a newborn baby.

Like health, just, everything's just been on that end

where I've never known anything about being skinny

or being fit or being athletic.

I've never known anything about that.

- Probably your situation, I don't think shame

necessarily would motivate you.

But for somebody where it is a option, so

for instance, if you've watched TLC,

you watch "My 600-lb Life,"

"1000-lb Sisters,' "Family by the Ton,"

all of them can do it.

All of them have had this systemic issue of blinking.

- Though, I have watched those like

as a younger person, and it would make me feel disgusted

with me when I was a kid.

So it would make me worse

and it made my mental health worse

'cause then I'm like, "Is that how

like everybody automatically views me as

just like somebody who's oversized

and could possibly never even attain it

'cause it's so just common."

- I don't think we should shame anyone to do anything.

I think everyone deserves to like themselves enough

to like enjoy life. - Mm-hmm.

- And if you do that as a fat person, okay, if you do it

as a skinny person, also chill.

It's not my business.

- But I- - Shame is a broad category.

I do think shame works in some cases.

I think that there has been good fat-shaming towards me

and bad fat-shaming, bad fat-shaming is just, you know,

somebody just saying, "You are fat,"

there's like that doesn't really work.

But what does work is somebody looking at me

and saying, "Don't you wanna be around for your kids?"

And that worked. That worked. - I don't think that shaming.

Do you consider that shaming?

- I do, I think that's shaming. I think they were telling me

like you should lose weight to be around for your children.

I think that's shame, like an attempt

to like try and say something bad about me.

- Like they're personalizing towards you

and towards your kids like, of course, yeah.

- Yeah, but, and I think that worked, I think that worked.

That really encouraged me to go

to the gym and start trying to lose weight.

- But that's to you though. - Sure.

I think you have to be specific towards the person.

- I think that's one thing is,

it depends on the person. - Sure

- And if someone wants to shame me

and like, you know, it depends on the person.

I've been shamed a couple times

and it's kicked me into gear to try to gain weight,

but it's still really hard.

- Sure. - And it's, you know,

it depends on who you are, I think.

- When you were making a comment

about people questioning your masculinity,

I get the question of actually looking like a woman all

the time and it's always in play.

I always get compare to like male characters,

especially when I don't wear makeup and that's

because I don't have boobs and I can't help that.

But it's definitely really, really hard

to like have people tell you constantly like here's

the standard of how a woman should look

and you don't look like that without even saying it.

They don't say it, they're categorizing me,

they're making fun of me saying

that I look like this one soccer player or something.

And you know, I think it's funny

but also shame can also be hard.

'cause I can see what you mean sometimes it can

really motivate you when it's out of love.

- Yes. (speakers talking over each other)

- And when it's out of like not knowing someone

and just saying it-

- Yeah, the people who said that

to me about my kids were not,

yeah, just some random guy online.

It was people who were close to me

and I knew cared about me, who I had a conversation with.

So I do think it matters who says it,

but I still would consider it to an extent of shaming.

And I'm okay with that, I think there is good shame.

I think that's a...

I think sometimes it helps motivate people in the right way.

- [Host] The body positivity movement promotes

childhood obesity.

(footsteps clomping)

Diet culture has positive effects.

- I guess, for me, diet culture is an important thing

to have for people in the world.

What I've realized after we're about to finish this up is

there wasn't a lot of talk on skinny culture

or like skinny people as a whole.

Maybe that's 'cause of how the prompt is.

But I think it's important if we're gonna give positivity

to kids who are obese, I think it's important

to give them the options to, you know,

say if they want to lose weight they can.

I don't see a problem with that in any real sense.

(footsteps clomping)

- I think that diet culture is a reason that a lot

of people struggle with weight problems in the first place.

I have even struggled with my own weight issues in the past

and I was like struggling kind of

with depriving myself too much because I had a trainer

and then I started binge-eating

and as soon as I had like a mental break

where I was like physically incapable

of stopping myself from putting food in my mouth,

I immediately went to see a doctor

and that doctor told me

to read a book called "Intuitive Eating,"

and it wildly changed my life.

And it was about getting past diet culture

and about how so many people ruined their lives

with diet culture.

And you see it with like

somebody talked about eating grapes and lettuce,

and it's grapes and lettuce

and it's just like, it's this extreme.

And so you go from one extreme and then you break

and then you go to the other extreme.

And so like I was in my extreme, I broke went.

So that's why I'm anti-diet culture.

- Yeah, I tried Keto for a while,

and that's the thing about what I realized is like

that fad diet kind of stuff and, yeah, did I lose weight?

I absolutely lost weight, sure, I didn't keep it off.

And the reason I didn't keep it off is

because diet culture is about turning the word diet

from your overall eating into an activity

that takes place over a period of time.

A diet should not be something you do from January

until May of next year.

Diet is what you continually eat, is

what you continually put into yourself.

Yeah. - Lifestyle change.

- Yeah, so my issue with diet culture is this idea of like,

oh, I've got this perfect solution for you, man.

All you gotta do is this, this, this, and this and that.

And it's like, no, like

the reality is is like, yeah, there are good correct

and objective ways I think for a lot of people to eat.

And, yes, everybody has

to have some variations here and there.

There's no one-bag-fix-salt

and diet culture is so much about trying

to say like, "All you gotta do is just eat cheese puffs

every day for the rest of your life

- And it's easy. - Yeah, and so I just, I...

That's why I think diet culture doesn't help.

- You know, you're always gonna get those people

who have the perfect answer, they have the perfect solution

to either lose weight

or diet isn't just losing weight, it's also gaining weight.

You know, and I think a lot of people, maybe it's just,

for me, but when I diet, it's actually not

the opposite of fasting.

I'm trying to eat more, I'm trying to gain more.

And I think people forget that when it comes to diet.

When people instantly hear the word diet,

they think losing weight. - Mm-hmm.

- And I don't think that should always be the case.

- I've been on a lot of diets.

I've been on diets for myself, I've been put on diets

and I've been put on diets by my coaches.

So when I was young,

I felt like it was more so like fasting,

fasting, fasting, not eating but working out

and maybe, hopefully, eating once you get home as a reward.

And then, when it became like, oh,

like you're a good person in the team

to like be the big person,

be the defender, be buff.

So it was like now we have to gain all this weight

and we have to pound you out.

So it was like I had to eat like five meals in a day

and I was, I felt so gross

because I was just like, I've never had

to like pull out like a bar or something

and like eat it during class and be like I have

to eat this 'cause it's part of my diet.

- When we talk about diet culture,

we're talking about not your diet as a whole.

It's usually a fad diet is

what we're talking about when we're talking

about diet culture.

And for me personally, I know that I've seen a lot of,

especially women in my life going on fad diets

that are just not sustainable.

And that's kind of the purpose of diet culture is

that it's not a sustainable thing.

- But we're all talking about like mainstream, like Keto,

like gluten-free, and I think it's,

everyone's just polarized on these certain ones

that I believe that you should eat gluten.

I think if you take it outta your diet,

you're actually gonna get sick.

- Unless you're-

- Unless, Celiac, no, like, yeah-

- It goes back to like what she said,

which is you know, intuitive eating.

- So what is the positive you think you've seen for people

from diet culture

which I think, and I guess

what do you consider diet culture?

- I guess like diet culture, to me,

is the resources you need

to get to where you want to be in your life, in your body.

That's how I've always viewed diet culture.

- By dieting, do you mean like journaling

what you're eating?

- Yeah, if you want to journal, if you want to, you know,

talk to a therapist, if you want to work out,

if you wanna see a doctor, if you wanna go on meds.

Like everyone's always- - But it's not being super

like when you diet,

you're not being like, "I'm completely cutting out carbs

or I'm completely doing this right."

(speakers talking over each other)

Are you just like watching your macros and your micros

and you're calculating that-

- I guess if you're asking if I know

how many calories I have to eat,

yeah, like I have to eat like 4,000 a day.

- When most people talk about diet culture,

they've done some sort of extremely restrictive thing

and when you do something really restrictive,

it changes your brain chemistry and the way that you think

about food and it makes you obsessive over food.

and it makes you obsessive over food.

And then, but it sounds like the way

that you're doing it is extremely healthy

- Isn't that just goes back to like you guys are talking

- Isn't that just goes back to like you guys are talking

- Diet culture is one thing, and then healthy lifestyle-

- Having a healthy diet is different.

- I think are two different things.

Think are two different things. Okay.

of living a healthy lifestyle as a diet.

- You've been in like a model spheres,

do you see diet culture and how has it impacted the space?

- There was a point in my life like when I was a junior

in high school where the person that I was with at the time,

he's like six-foot-six and super tall.

And so, you know, the mom was like, "Hey,

And so, you know, the mom was like, hey,

which is still big to this day

and, you know, you should come."

which is still big to this day and you know you should come.

and I was a D-cup and they said that I weighed too much.

And so, seeing that

really struck me in the beginning

with the negative part of dieting

struck me in the beginning with the negative part of dieting

well if I'm too big then what are people doing

to not be this size? - Mm-hmm.

- Like how can I make it to be to do

what I wanna do if this is my limitation to it?

It took years later to realize like, "Shit,

I was really disciplining myself

for no apparent reason except

for this underlying feeling from years ago

that I can never get rid of."

When you're talking about like discipline,

I think it can be really positive with dieting

and like intaking your calories.

But for me personally,

and I'm a very specific case, seeing those numbers

and knowing that I couldn't achieve it

because I didn't have the appetite was also just

so saddening to me because reading the bare minimum of

what a woman needs, five-foot-five at my age, I was like,

"That's not that much," and I still couldn't eat it

at the time, and I'm like, "What's wrong with me?"

There's different ways to motivate people

and one of 'em is out of pain and anger

and I feel like a lot of the diet culture, whether it's

for positive or negative, is just trying

to gear into that for that. - Yeah.

- And you know, I just am more about being healthy.

- I hear diet and I think of something that's positive

and it's been positive to me,

and you know, it's something I'm always trying to achieve.

I guess like if we were to redo this,

the same exact question, I may hesitate

and not walk across the line.

I guess I'll never know.

But hearing these perspectives were really good

'cause I probably didn't know as much about the extremes.

- I wanna thank all of you for sharing your opinions with us

and for challenging us, and I really wanna thank you.

I thank you for the back and forth.

It's something that I came here for

and I wanted to talk to somebody who thinks differently

and I've learned some things,

so I appreciate that for all of you.

Thank you all for- - Yeah, thank you.

- Yeah, this was great. - It was a pleasure.