Mastery is an Infinite Game with performance psychologist Mike Gervais | A Bit of Optimism

Summary

In this insightful podcast, the conversation delves into the concepts of confidence, belonging, and the pursuit of mastery over performance. The discussion highlights the importance of purpose in driving personal growth and the challenges of navigating social pressures as a 'social animal.' It emphasizes the need to find one's authentic path, rather than seeking external validation, and touches on the transformative power of reframing experiences from a place of opportunity rather than threat.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Confidence stems from the narrative you create for yourself, highlighting the importance of self-talk in building a credible and positive self-image.
• 🏆 The distinction between high performance and mastery is crucial; the former is about meeting demands, while the latter involves a deeper, more organic growth process.
• 🤔 The societal and cultural emphasis on performance over mastery can lead to a 'treadmill' effect, where the focus is on outcomes rather than the journey of improvement.
• 🧘‍♂️ Mastery of craft and self is essential, using one's skills to understand and contribute to the human condition on a deeper level.
• 🔑 Finding purpose is key to transcending the need for external validation; it shifts the focus from identity to a larger, more meaningful goal.
• 🤝 Belonging and being part of a community are primal needs, but over-identification with a group can lead to conformity and contortion of one's values.
• 🔭 Having a clear purpose can mitigate the fear of rejection or failure, as it provides a larger context for one's actions and identity.
• 💡 The concept of 'infinite' versus 'finite' thinking is pivotal, with the former promoting ongoing growth and learning, as opposed to the latter which can lead to a dead end.
• 🛡️ Protecting oneself from re-traumatization can manifest as extreme caution or avoidance, impacting one's willingness to take risks necessary for growth.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Recovery is as important as performance, requiring a disciplined approach to self-care and mental preparation to maintain peak performance.
• 🌱 Reframing stressors as opportunities can significantly alter one's mindset, allowing for more positive and productive engagement with challenges.

Q & A

What is the main difference between confidence and self-worth as discussed in the transcript?

The transcript suggests that confidence is state-specific and can change from moment to moment based on the situation and self-perception, while self-worth is often tied to results and societal judgments, which can lead to an unhealthy reliance on external validation.

Why is the concept of 'Mastery' preferred over 'Performance' in the context of personal growth?

The transcript emphasizes 'Mastery' as an input and a commitment to a deeper understanding of one's craft and self, which is more organic and authentic compared to 'Performance', which is an output and often tied to external demands and results.

How does the idea of 'Mastery' relate to the concept of purpose in an individual's life?

The transcript connects 'Mastery' to a purpose-driven life, suggesting that when one is committed to Mastery, their identity fades away, and their actions are driven by a larger purpose, contributing to something meaningful beyond personal identity.

What is the significance of the samurai sword maker's story in the discussion about Mastery?

The samurai sword maker's story illustrates the lifelong commitment to learning and improvement, embodying the concept of Mastery. Even after 30 years, the maker still sees himself as learning, which highlights the continuous journey of Mastery.

How does the transcript differentiate between finite and infinite thinking in relation to identity and purpose?

Finite thinking is associated with performance-based identity and goal achievement, which has an end point, while infinite thinking is linked to purpose, which is an ongoing commitment and exploration of potential without a definitive end.

What role does the concept of 'ICM' or 'Ideal Competitive Mindframe' play in an individual's performance?

The 'ICM' represents the optimal state of mind for performance. The transcript suggests that recognizing and understanding one's ICM can help in building up to that state consistently, which is crucial for peak performance in any field.

How does the transcript address the issue of social anxiety and the fear of being ostracized?

The transcript acknowledges the deep-seated human need for belonging and the fear of ostracism, which can lead to behaviors that compromise one's values for the sake of acceptance. It suggests that clarity of purpose can help mitigate the anxiety associated with social rejection.

What is the relationship between trauma and the protective mechanisms people develop to avoid re-traumatization?

The transcript explains that people develop protective mechanisms as a response to unexamined trauma, aiming to avoid the pain of re-traumatization. These mechanisms can manifest as avoidance behaviors or excessive caution in situations reminiscent of past traumas.

How does the transcript discuss the impact of job insecurity on the younger generation's approach to work and loyalty?

The transcript suggests that the younger generation has experienced a shift from job security to job insecurity, leading them to question the traditional model of loyalty to a company. This has resulted in a more cautious approach to employment and a reevaluation of what constitutes a stable career.

What strategies are mentioned in the transcript for daily recovery to manage stress and maintain optimal performance?

The transcript highlights the importance of having a daily recovery routine that includes mental and physical practices to manage stress. It also emphasizes the need for positive self-talk and reframing stressful situations as opportunities for growth and excitement.

Outlines

00:00

🧠 The Psychology of Confidence and Mastery

This paragraph delves into the concept of confidence and how it is derived from one's self-talk. It emphasizes the importance of knowing one's purpose to transcend the need for external validation. The discussion highlights the difference between high performance and mastery, with the former being about executing on demand and the latter involving a deeper, more organic commitment to understanding and improving. The speaker, a psychologist and high-performance expert, contrasts the two and suggests that mastery is about the craft and self-improvement, rather than just achieving results. The conversation also touches on the societal focus on results and how this can impact self-worth and identity.

05:01

🏈 Insights from High-Performance Psychology in Sports

In this paragraph, the discussion shifts to the world of sports, specifically the Seattle Seahawks, to illustrate the concepts of high performance and mastery. The speaker recounts how pre-game rituals and the coach's inquiries about the team's mental framework influenced his understanding of performance. The emphasis is on the importance of a sturdy and agile mindset, capable of withstanding challenging environments. The conversation also explores the idea of confidence being state-specific and derived from a balance between perceived challenges and internal skills. The speaker shares a story about a samurai sword maker in Japan, highlighting the importance of continuous learning and the pursuit of mastery over time.

10:04

🎓 Overcoming Identity Crisis Through Mastery

The speaker discusses the dangers of over-identifying with a single aspect of one's identity, such as being a high-performing athlete or a successful executive. He shares personal stories of struggling with subjects in school and not having a standout talent, which led him to explore other areas of strength. The conversation touches on the concept of finite and infinite thinking, where finite thinking is goal-oriented and can lead to identity crises, while infinite thinking is more about a lifelong pursuit of mastery. The speaker emphasizes the importance of finding one's purpose and not being defined solely by external achievements.

15:04

🎭 The Pursuit of Mastery Beyond Performance

This paragraph continues the exploration of mastery and its impact on identity and purpose. The speaker discusses the concept of performance-based identity and how it can lead to anxiety and a constant need for validation. He contrasts this with a purpose-based identity, which is more about contributing to something meaningful and less about personal achievement. The conversation also touches on the societal pressure to conform and the fear of rejection, which can lead to a loss of authenticity. The speaker encourages listeners to focus on purpose and to find joy in the process of mastery, rather than solely on outcomes.

20:06

🐏 The Ancient Brain's Impact on Modern Belonging

The discussion in this paragraph centers on the evolutionary aspects of belonging and how the ancient human brain's need for safety and belonging still influences modern behavior. The speaker explains how being part of a group was crucial for survival in ancient times and how this need for belonging can lead to conforming or contorting one's identity in the present day. The conversation also touches on the psychological impact of rejection and the fear of being ostracized. The speaker uses the example of flat earthers to illustrate how a strong sense of belonging can override rational thought and lead to the rejection of evidence.

25:13

🌐 The Cultural Shift Towards Purpose and Recovery

This paragraph discusses the cultural shift from a performance-based society to one that values purpose and recovery. The speaker talks about the importance of understanding one's purpose and how it can help in overcoming the fear of rejection and the need for external validation. He also emphasizes the need for daily recovery, especially in high-stress environments like elite sports. The conversation highlights the importance of reframing stress and pressure into opportunities for growth and learning. The speaker shares insights from his work with athletes and executives, emphasizing the need for a supportive environment that encourages vulnerability and risk-taking.

30:13

🏆 The Role of Purpose in Athletic and Corporate Cultures

The speaker explores the role of purpose in both athletic and corporate cultures, highlighting how a clear sense of purpose can help individuals find meaning beyond performance. He discusses the challenges athletes face when their careers end and the importance of having a broader purpose that extends beyond their sport. The conversation also touches on the changing dynamics of corporate loyalty and the need for companies to support their employees in finding a sense of purpose. The speaker suggests that helping individuals discover their purpose can be a powerful tool in both sports and business.

35:16

🛠️ Tools for Personal Recovery and Growth

In this paragraph, the speaker shares practical tools for personal recovery and growth. He emphasizes the importance of reframing thoughts to create space rather than constriction, and the need for daily recovery to manage stress effectively. The speaker discusses the concept of an ideal competitive mindset (ICM) and how athletes and executives can work towards achieving this state. He also talks about the power of self-talk and how positive, supportive self-dialogue can help individuals navigate challenging moments. The conversation includes strategies for recognizing and shifting from a threat to an opportunity mindset.

40:18

🎉 Embracing Excitement Over Nervousness

The final paragraph focuses on the power of reframing nervousness as excitement, drawing from the speaker's experiences and insights from elite athletes. He shares how elite athletes interpret the physical symptoms of nervousness as excitement, which helps them perform better under pressure. The speaker encourages listeners to practice this reframing in their own lives, especially in high-stress situations like public speaking. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the importance of awareness and the use of psychological tools to manage emotions effectively.

Keywords

💡Confidence

Confidence is a psychological state of self-assurance, often stemming from one's belief in their abilities. In the video, it is discussed as something that is internally derived from the dialogue one has with oneself. It is related to the theme as the host talks about the importance of not relying on external validation for confidence, but rather building it from within, which is crucial for personal growth and overcoming the fear of judgment.

💡Mastery

Mastery refers to the state of being highly skilled or proficient in a particular field or activity. The video emphasizes the concept of 'Mastery' over 'performance,' suggesting that it is a deeper, more organic pursuit that involves a commitment to understanding and improving in one's craft. The host uses the example of a samurai sword maker to illustrate the lifelong journey of learning and improvement that mastery entails.

💡Performance

Performance is the act of carrying out or accomplishing an action, often with the expectation of achieving specific results. The video contrasts 'performance' with 'mastery,' suggesting that while performance is about meeting demands and achieving outcomes, it can be fleeting and less fulfilling compared to the deeper process of mastery.

💡Identity

Identity in this context refers to the sense of self or the way a person defines themselves, often tied to their roles or achievements. The video discusses the dangers of over-identifying with one's performance or achievements, as it can lead to a crisis when those external markers are no longer present, such as after retiring from a high-performance career.

💡Purpose

Purpose is the reason for which something exists or is done, often providing a sense of direction and meaning. The video encourages finding a purpose beyond performance, suggesting that a purpose-based identity can lead to a more fulfilling life and help individuals to contribute meaningfully to something larger than themselves.

💡Fear of Rejection

Fear of rejection is the anxiety or concern about being excluded or not accepted by others. The video touches on this fear as a powerful motivator that can drive people to conform or contort their behavior to fit in with social groups, which can be detrimental to one's sense of self and authenticity.

💡Social Animals

The term 'social animals' is used in the video to describe humans' inherent need to belong to a group or community for safety and a sense of identity. It is tied to the discussion on the importance of belonging and the fear of ostracism, which are deeply rooted in our evolutionary history.

💡Craft

Craft in this context refers to the skills, art, or profession of an individual. The video discusses the importance of mastering one's craft as a means of deepening self-understanding and contributing to the human condition. It is part of the broader pursuit of mastery, which goes beyond mere technical proficiency.

💡Results Orientation

Results orientation is a focus on outcomes or results as the primary measure of success. The video critiques a society that is overly results-oriented, suggesting that it can lead individuals to tie their self-worth to their performance outcomes, which can be limiting and unful-filling.

💡Recovery

Recovery in the video refers to the process of rest and renewal that is necessary for maintaining well-being, especially in high-stress environments. It is presented as an essential counterpart to the drive for performance and mastery, emphasizing the importance of self-care and balance.

💡Ideal Performance Mindset

The Ideal Performance Mindset is a concept discussed in the video that refers to the optimal state of mind for achieving peak performance. It involves knowing and cultivating the thoughts and feelings that lead to one's best performance, and using this understanding to prepare for and approach challenging tasks with confidence and clarity.

Highlights

Confidence arises from the dialogue with oneself and must be credible.

The importance of purpose in transcending identity to contribute to something meaningful.

The difference between high performance and mastery, with the latter involving a deeper, organic process.

Mastery involves both the craft and self, using the craft to understand the human condition.

The societal focus on results and performance, often at the expense of personal worth and development.

The concept of finite and infinite thinking, and how it relates to performance-based versus mastery-based identity.

The journey of finding one's purpose and how it can lead to a more fulfilling life beyond high performance.

The impact of over-identification with a single skill or talent on personal development and identity.

The role of vulnerability in achieving mastery and the importance of creating a safe space for exploration.

The psychological effects of mass layoffs and job insecurity on the younger generation's approach to work.

The shift from a performance-based culture to one that values recovery and purpose in achieving success.

The idea of reframing nervousness as excitement to positively influence one's mindset.

The significance of self-talk in building confidence and managing the perception of challenges.

The importance of daily recovery practices in maintaining mental health and peak performance.

The concept of an ideal performance mindset and how it can be cultivated for consistent high-level performance.

The role of purpose in guiding life decisions and providing a sense of direction beyond immediate goals.

The impact of societal expectations and the fear of rejection on personal behavior and self-expression.

The transformative power of purpose in overcoming the fear of failure and the pursuit of mastery.

Transcripts

confidence is super interesting like it

only comes from one place and one place

only go on what you say to yourself but

how on Earth do I actually stop caring

about what people think about me when as

social animals I want to be included I

want to feel like I belong I want to be

trusted I want to be a member of the

tribe I want to be welcomed and invited

because not to be is to feel alone to

feel ostracized to feel brushed aside

know your purpose so it's no longer

about identity it's about something far

larger so your identity Fades away it

just allows your identity of like I have

to perform to start to evaporate and I'm

performing because I want to contribute

to something that's really meaningful

and it's not Wall Street bottom

line Mike I'm so glad you came on the

show uh I'm such a fan and I I so

enjoyed coming on your podcast finding

Mastery and I thought you know for those

who don't know fing Mastery a you're

missing out but B how selfish am I to go

and enjoy your company and not share you

with everybody else so thanks for thanks

for joining our little podcast for those

who don't know you um you're a

psychologist by training and in

particular what I would I guess high

performance right that's your specialty

correct um and you worked with the

Seahawks and other football teams you

come from

Sports um what I let's start let's start

for you you talk about Mastery over for

performance and I find this this is an

important Nuance because every CEO you

talk to CEOs and like you know so what

kind of we're a high performance culture

we're a high performance everything is

performance performance even when it's

not why doesn't anybody talk about

Mastery why are people so obsessed about

performance and even you you come from

Sports where performance is the thing

that they talk about why does everybody

talk about performance and nobody thinks

about or talks about Mastery there's

kind of like this high performance

treadmill in just about every industry

that you can get your kids on you you

know like there's a some sort of track

in the corporate world that you can get

on that you know you do a b and c things

you give yourself a pretty good chance

of being a high performer whether it's

technical skill development in sport

it's physical and for all of us it's

mental and there's like a a little bit

of a track for it and the track for

Mastery is really Los

when I think about the difference

between high performance and

Mastery e high performance is about

executing on demand but with Mastery

there's a bit of a contour to it there's

something that

just has an organic authentic artistic

expression on demand certainly but

there's a different Contour to the path

of Mastery um what do you mean by

Contour the way that you see the world

around you is

there's a difference between people that

are committed to Mastery and those that

are committed to high performance so I

don't have a better word I've been

studying this thing for 25 years and so

the I wish there was a way to express

the space that happens for people that

are committed to Mastery versus like the

execution got to go drive drive drive

drive get it done you know execute on

command be great be great recover be

great recover that's like the high

performance kind of process Mill if you

will nothing wrong with that but there's

a difference between the commitment to

Mastery and then let me open it up two

ways Mastery really is about Mastery of

craft and Mastery of self so you're

you're really using the craft to go

deeper to understand The Human Condition

yourself first and then in return other

people as well I need I need to go

deeper than this because we get judged

mostly by our results right our bonus

structures are large largely tied to our

results a lot of people unfortunately

tie their self worth to their results

that's right um uh we are a uh for

better more likely For Worse results

oriented Society we grade children we

grade their art from very young very

early Ag and it's usually individually

motivated you know what is your grade

relative to other relative to other

people you know etc etc etc and as we

talk about this and I'm sort of like

thinking about the people I admire

performance is an output it it it

literally comes at the end of something

that's right Mastery is an input yeah

Mastery is a commitment like the Mastery

comes before that's right and so that's

one difference which is somebody who is

you know you actors always talk about

the craft you know you say how do you

know that person's a good actor like

they they study the craft yes you you I

was with the Seattle Seahawks for nine

seasons and just about every game we won

a lot it was a it was a high performing

team and just about every game we're on

the 50 yard line pregame there's like

the stadium holds uh let's call it 70 I

think it was like 78,000 people so it's

about half full at this point there's

good energy players are out there moving

around doing their thing and for sure

coach would always come up to me and say

so mik what do you think what do you

think what do you think about today and

at first I thought that I needed to

answer that like I am the high

performance psychologist I need to

answer what I think about their their

mindsets or their commitment to winning

or or their ability to win today which

and then I realized like no this is

about the coaches really asking what do

you think of their framework what do you

think of the quarterback's framework is

it sturdy or is it flimsy is are is the

offense going to get knocked around or

they grounded and really sturdy and how

they're going to go about being their

very best and to your point about input

output there is another output winning

whatever that means right and when you

Cobble together a bunch of performance

outputs you get to the outcome right

whatever winning means for

people and in that process if you have a

sturdy

Nimble strong agile the antifragile type

of stuff if if that is the way that your

psychology is built you can go weather

some really incredible hostile rugged

challenging environments

psychologically so it when you say it's

an input it's a fundamental decision

that you make that I'm moving towards um

Mastery as opposed to high performance I

went to

Japan and we went to visit um a samurai

sword maker there you go and he's one of

the last like hundred guys left making

samurai swords in the traditional method

where he folds the steel himself and

does all this and his story was quite

remarkable which is he had a desk job um

and was like I can't this can't be my

life and he quit and decided to become

an apprentice sword maker and has now

been on his

own and uh he says we we talk you know

we're we're talking to him and he's like

you know I'm still I'm still learning um

I'm one day I I hope to be good at this

and we're like how long have you been

doing this he said 30 years that's that

that's it you know yeah you're lighting

up when you say it cuz like that

appreciation truly for being being a

beginner in your approach to like how

things really work and as you get

further down the path even at 25 30

years and you're further down the path

of really understanding something yeah

um the Mastery of self is what drives

that Curiosity yeah like wait how does

this man if I could just figure out how

to really dial this thing in in the way

that I see it could be yeah how do I

match my skills with the the challenge

ahead of me or in front of me he doesn't

think he's bad at it he just knows he

can be better that's exactly it and

there's there was an incredible lack of

ego you know at the same time an

incredible self-confidence yeah because

otherwise you wouldn't have the grit to

stick with it and realize them because I

think you have confidence if you see

yourself improving confidence is super

interesting like it only comes from one

place and one place

only go on what you say to

yourself that's it and so now that has

to be credible yeah you have to speak to

yourself in a credible way and there's

there's a calculus there's a math it's a

math problemy ol logically if you will

is that what's happening for confidence

and I'm going to tie it to your point in

a second is that there's this constant

calculus which is I'm interpreting the

challenge ahead of me or in front of me

the demands of a challenge okay whatever

it is playing one-on-one basketball

against Michael Jordan or having a

conversation with you or whatever it

might be I put you and Jordan in the

same category

and so um no for real like it's a it's a

perception of the challenge mapped

against my perception of my internal

skills let's say that again a perception

of the challenge mapped against my

perception of my SK skills right and so

if I can see the challenge is high and

wonderful and big and whatever and then

I can also know how to back myself that

I've got skills to navigate this

challenge right now I've got like the

I've now I've got the ability to speak

to myself in a way that builds

confidence so confidence is State

specific meaning it changes from moment

to moment from

environment but that's the math that

sits underneath of it and you were

probably really smart when you were

young you're smart now um it's like the

same as a young athlete they're probably

pretty talented when they were young

certainly the exceptional ones are and

like they they or you didn't maybe

really learn how confidence worked

because when you walked into a room you

were always one of the smarter ones that

got it quickly so you didn't know that

it had to come from this calculus it

just was a thing that happen based on

how well things go now here's the Trap

my confidence comes when something goes

well I feel confident yeah when I get

two buckets in a row now I'm confident

when I walk on stage and people smile

and I say a couple funny things and

something smart and I get that look from

the audience then then you nod your head

like nah now I'm in my pocket yeah so

that's dangerous because you're waiting

for your external world to give you the

information that your internal world is

solid and when it goes directionally in

that way

is a problem now you're constantly

getting whipped around the external

world so if you get the direction of

this right and you build it on the math

that we just spoke about okay so here's

the reality the real story yeah I was a

solid be student okay cool right yeah

uh I think my brain worked quickly but

there's some subjects I just didn't

grasp and to this day I still struggle

with right you know my friends were the

Smart

Ones like my friends were the one who is

the straight A student in math or the

straight A student in English or the

straight A student in history and they

all had a subject or a couple of my

friends were jocks who were like the

star football player

I jogged around the track occasionally

you know so what was going on so uh so

for me the challenge was I was always

the dumb one or the not athletic one

around my friends I mean I was athletic

but I was never an athlete yeah right

there might be something really healthy

going on there that you didn't over

identify your identity was R not wrapped

up in what you were doing and and so and

so this the the the stress that I had

was what's my subject everybody has a

subject like that one's good at math

that one's good at English that one's a

great writer that one's great at physics

that one you know and I had no subject

and so I had to go on a journey to be

like I'm fine at at everything but I'm

great at

nothing and I the lesson that I started

to learn was I I looked outside of the

subjects that were written on my school

schedule and thought what is the stuff

that I'm good at that my friend that I'm

I mean that I'm better than my friends

at and I was better at asking questions

I was better at

talking cuz I had to be cuz it was a

survival Instinct for ADHD CU I couldn't

study so I had to get good at asking

good questions and listening to the

answers and

I didn't know what to do with that but

it gave me confidence to know that I had

a thing it just wasn't written down on

my high school schedule or my College

schedule I've got a story for you I've

got a story for you

to uh to relate to what you just shared

is that um in high school and college I

didn't have a thing either and

so I'm I'm a psychologist in high school

I got an F in psychology

so I keep my high school report card in

mind as a reminder you know it's great

when you can find your thing at a young

age I was I was a bit of a wreck yeah so

um love my parents dad was a functioning

alcoholic mom was codependent and I knew

that I wasn't I didn't have a thing

either I was athletic but I was not the

athlete I was clever and smart but I was

definitely not the student and so I

didn't have a thing either and I think

that there's a case to be built that

when you over identify early on your

identity with a thing that you're good

at it can get you really good because

you have to go all inh so when you stand

at the pitcher box or or the Batters box

or you're on the pitcher Mount or

whatever sport it is and your entire

identity rests on you striking people

out or hitting home runs you practice

hard mhm you practice probably practice

harder than just about everyone else so

at a young age that get you really good

now you're this is a dead end full stop

dead end approach because you are so

much more than the thing that you do so

you and I accidentally were afforded

this luxury of kind of the flounder

floundering years where it's like your

identity was not wrapped up in it and

you didn't know the thing that you were

that was going to spark you there's so

many thoughts going through my head

which is um this goes to and you and I

have talked about this which is the

concept of finite and infinite thinking

right and the finite there's a great iry

in this which is to say I have a subject

or I'm a basketball player or I'm a

pitcher or whatever it is and I'm going

to be the best I'm going to work hard

and I've got that work ethic and I've

got that discipline the problem is there

is a date that that stops that's right

you either get injured get fired or it's

just time to retire just about everyone

gets pushed out of the pros and the same

can be is true in life I'm the best

lawyer I'm the best Banker I'm the best

blah blah blah and at some point you're

going to have to leave they'll either

push you out or you just age out right

there's the number of CEOs or high

performing Executives that I meet that

leave their careers or or you know sell

their companies whatever it is and they

have massive identity crisis because

their entire lives they would Define

themselves by this one thing that's

exactly and I here's the analogy I have

a friend who grew up in Fargo North

Dakota Fargo North Dakota who dreamed of

being a New York City rocket and making

it to Broadway no kid from Fargo North

Dakota parents did the sacrifice you

know all of this stuff

and she made it she be she went she made

it to

Broadway she became a New York City raet

right all of her dreams came true yeah

and then what she spent her entire life

committed to achieving this thing did it

for a few years and then she chased the

dream and accomplished the dream yeah

and then literally didn't know what to

do next if you knew what I knew

about what it takes for a kid to be one

of the best in the world to be a high

performing athlete or whatever fill-in

the blank artist you we would not be

pushing our kids yeah the wash out is

incredible yeah and I think most of us

so what you're describing you're you're

framing it as the um infinite in finite

game and I when I hear you speak that

that to me is a performance-based

identity right because it's goal-based

right yeah like I'm going to be the

right that's exact that framing is and

the opposite Mastery 100% that is they

they're high performers and they and

they have the the resume to prove their

high performance but then when you peel

the onion and the day after the career

the day after the dream

accomplished nothing scare fear I

actually uncertainty doubt for who for

for the high performer for the high

performer and even if they don't achieve

the the dream which is more likely most

people will not become super mod or you

know Prof high profile you know athletes

Etc but I've defined myself by thing

that I actually didn't accomplish then I

think it's even worse oh this is a tough

this is one of the reasons I think when

I speak to folks in the you know

corporate spaces is like purpose is a

big deal yeah like what am I doing like

what am I really doing I mean we're on

this radical Rock spinning around I

don't even know how I got into this body

we're using this madeup language right

now to try to connect yeah to try to

think about our experience together to

try to be just a little bit better and I

think that

the common the commonality amongst

people that I can see that that binds us

is we all want a great life yeah not

just a high performing life what is that

but we want the a great life with this

short amount of time that we're here and

that's where that conversation about

purpose what am I doing here and I think

it's a bit of a right of passage to

adulthood to have a sense of what am I

doing with my time here and it does not

need to be this Grand thing it can be to

be a great part partner to my spouse it

can be to you know to be a great dad it

can be to you know have fun and bring

joy to other people in my neighborhood

it does not need to be like serial

entrepreneurship like whomever fill in

the blanks it doesn't have to be that

but to have a sense of purpose is huge I

want to go back to that confidence thing

at some point in life we all struggle

with it nobody is immune no it's state

specific meaning that it's it's it's

like moment to moment confidence in one

moment and nothing the next that's right

depending on what I'm doing or who I'm

talking to depending on what you're

saying to yourself about that chall yeah

that's such a good one it's the way

you're framing the conversation and if

you if you think if you entertain what

are they thinking about me then we're on

a slide for confidence like a downward

slide if you start like what is Simon

thinking about what I'm saying right now

is getting in the way of that calculus

which is is like no this is a I love

this conversation it's really

challenging to find the right words to

describe things that are hard to talk

about and this is what I really enjoy

doing that's how confidence will be

built for me you're bringing up

something

that look what did what did Teddy

Roosevelt say you know comparison is the

thief of Joy that's right yeah you know

and you're bringing up something which I

think is so easily understood and so

difficult to Doh it is well and good to

say don't care what other people think

about you we all know that grandma told

me that right Grandma told me that yeah

uh but how on Earth do I actually stop

caring about what people think about me

when as social animals I want to be

included I want to feel like I belong I

want to be trusted I want to be a member

of the tribe I want to be welcomed and

invited because not to be is to feel

alone to feel ostracized to feel brushed

aside we know what happens a social

animal left to their own devices is

destructive to others are destructive to

themselves and that's a whole different

topic you know I think it's right people

who hurt themselves and hurt others you

know yeah and that we thrash when we're

not connected and the thrashing makes

sense because our brains are wired for

safety yeah and belonging is safety yeah

you know the think about like the sheep

and the Wolves the sheep in the that are

in the middle of the pack are way safer

than the Sheep on the outside and way

safer than the Sheep that's kind of

wandered off so so being rejected by the

tribe is a form of a uh 200,000 years

ago a death sentence and yeah the

mamalian brain still freaks out yes now

and then so if you think about that

mechanism is still ancient brain modern

times it's still happening for us and

then you wrap the modern kind of

identity with what you do so when you go

out and do something I'm an executive

I'm a manager I'm a salesperson I'm a

CMO whatever it might

be and and you're getting data back that

it's it's not good and that can either

be objective numbers or a lift from an

eyebrow from your supervisor or whomever

or a iroll in a meeting that that is so

triggering to the survival brain that we

do something very predictable we'll

conform we will

contort we will

confront and and sometimes sometimes we

just cut off the relationship because

it's too much but think about the

conforming and confronting which are

they're all which is kind of fun no

science here just a nice alliteration

way for me to remember it but the

conforming is I might laugh at a joke or

go along with something that's slightly

offensive to my moral code to what I

think is right but that person has power

so I slightly conform we've all done it

yeah the contorting is where it becomes

we do it on dates yeah right to to be

liked to be liked yeah and then they

find out like wait you know you don't

think I'm funny what just happened here

the contorting is when it's really

problematic when we when we really do so

contortion is a an extreme full of of

con of conforming conforming yeah like I

might really you're literally abandoning

your moral code to be like to be in to

not get pushed out got it and that's

it's a form of loneliness right oh yeah

it's a fear and loneliness that you know

that if if they kick me out yeah I'm

kind of screwed yeah like I don't I

don't have a back stop

here uh okay okay so I'll tell you a

quick story and then I have to go back

to this question so I watched this

documentary um about flat earthers M

it's an okay documentary but the thing

that I loved about it was there's this

guy who who was the leader of one of the

the Flat Earth um organizations and they

consider themselves people of

Science and they have scientific

explanations for you know why the Earth

is flat and they conduct an experiment

to prove that the Earth is flat um spoil

alert they accidentally prove that it's

ruined um and they look at this science

they look at this experiment and they go

huh H and you know maybe we did the

experiment wrong you know but the leader

of the group he

recognizes what's going on here he's a

smart guy and he's because he's such an

Ardent flat earther he's been rejected

by his friends and family growing up his

only Community are other flat earthers

in this group and now he

recognizes that gig is up but he

actually doesn't come clean because if

he leaves that group he's got no one

yeah you know yeah that it's the same

with like some of the divide that we're

seeing politically you know they formed

such tight belonging ship that if cost

is so high the and they and they've cost

relationships getting into those groups

that's right that if I leave this group

I literally will have no one and that

fear is

so

real that as you said I do I do worse

than conform I contort yeah for

belonging yeah that's right yeah it it

And so there's this pervasive worry am I

going to be accepted or rejected by

others that is a very healthy um

pervasive survival tactic am I going to

get rejected or accepted by the tribe

when it when it bleeds into the words

you choose the clothes that you wear the

the conforming or contorting that you're

going to accept or not it becomes almost

a clinical

condition huh how would you diagnose

that um just it's not it doesn't meet

the clinical criteria for social anxiety

disorder it does not meet that um

allodoxaphobia is like the kind of the

fear of being out with other people it's

not that either but it's on that path

it's on that path well for fun I I na if

we were diagnosing our nation oh yeah so

we're a nation of

allodoxaphobia of people's opinions and

I think that we're on the Glide path

like the fear of people's opinions is

really quite High and the it's it makes

sense to me though because we live in a

performance-based culture yeah and in a

performance-based culture would make

sense that I would organically developed

a performance-based identity right and

then underneath that it would make sense

that I would St uh be anxious and hustle

hard and all that kind of stuff about

being my very best or being the best

which is now like my identity is wrapped

up in how well I do whatever I do and

I'm constantly scanning the world to see

if I'm okay are my numbers good are

people looking at me okay are they

laughing behind my back or with me like

what's happening so that it's it's an

exhaustive approach to see if I'm okay

is the problem and how do you get around

it I I this it's going to sound too

simple but because nothing's quite this

simple be very clear about your purpose

and you say why do you say purpose a

purpose-based identity if think about

any who inspires you Simon like like

Global Changers his with us or you know

no longer with us the people who inspire

me are not household names the ones that

are living anyway yeah they're certainly

not do do one that's a household name

that we can we can Vibe okay uh Martin

Luther King okay so Dr King Jr if he was

sitting in this conversation with us he

would probably be talking about Equity

he'd probably be talking about like

freedom of Rights the dream that he has

so this is all wrapped into his purpose

so when your purpose is clear and and

it's bigger than you and it is inspiring

and it matters to you you're trying to

get help mhm so you're want to pull

people in you can't solve it alone

Mike Simon can you guys help me like I

there's you know there's something here

that's bigger than all three of us and I

want to see if you know we can do

something special and so it's no longer

about identity it's about something far

larger so you your identity Fades away

and the thing that you're trying to

solve together um comes forward and

we're no longer managing identity and

ego but we're we're committing together

to a shared purpose it's that invitation

which is Go Go full circle back to

mastery

it it is an invitation to explore

potential that's really what Mastery is

and the invitation is always available

to

everybody each one of your listeners the

invitation is available right now to

fundamentally commit to a life that um

you are going to explore what what is

possible for you and it feels

overwhelming and you say where do I

start with this first just snap into

like in this brief amount of time that I

might be on this planet when I look back

what do I want to contribute to so start

with purpose but I think so how do you

help an athlete find their

purpose yeah well because they were

raised to perform yeah that's exactly

right and while they're in the league

that they're in whether it's the

Olympics or the NFL or NBA whatever it

might be the purpose is quite clear you

know so the purpose is given to them you

know win championships yeah and that

wears out at some point that's not

really a purpose though is it no that's

more of an outcome a goal but it's like

a binding thing for us together you know

but it falls it it it has the appearance

of purpose and it works for a period

that's right and again it's finite you

know in all all the ways that you would

articulate that and so um what it does

though it serves a bit of a placeholder

for them to know what it's like to be

part of something bigger where they

can't solve it on their own even

individual athletes whether it's a

golfer or singles tennis player they're

part of a team too yeah yeah and so um

so I think the question was more

tactical like how do I help people yeah

like yeah like like what it's because I

think look everybody's looking like the

rise of spirituality everybody's looking

for their sense of purpose you know I

mean I mean I wrote a book about it you

know uh uh what do you do how do you

take people on the journey to actually

help them answer the

question first is help them sit with the

pain that they feel I think one of the

greatest gifts we can give people is to

Hold Steady while they are

exploring the hardest parts of

themselves and so without judgment

without critique so a container yeah a

safe space a safe space not trying to

fix not trying to coach not trying to

solve anything but just hold the space

for them to explore the harder parts of

themselves to put words to the

emotionally charged parts of themselves

we all have pain suffering we all have

trauma micro massive traumas and it is

important to at least index and

understand those and most of us if you

stay with that first assumption that I

have is that we all got something we're

working

through that the response to unexamined

trauma is to protect ourselves from

around a a corner that was like a

hairpin corner and whatever and there's

smells and sounds all the kind of

classic examples of a PTSD moment well

it would make sense that maybe you don't

go around hair pin turns anymore or you

slow down or you're very cautious or you

grip your nails into the side of the if

somebody else is driving like we're

trying to protect ourselves from being

ret traumatized so we have to what we do

this I need to I need to I need to

underscore this we're not trying to

protect ourselves from dying we're

trying to protect our from being ret

traumatized because if you ask people

why are you freaking

out you know it's you're like they say

cuz I don't want to die but that's not

true I don't want to be ret traumatized

they didn't die from the thing they

didn't die from the thing yeah but it

was so but it was traumatizing it was so

jaring that they don't want that feeling

for an extended period of time again

that's exactly it it's not

post-traumatic it's not a revisiting of

the original trauma it's a fear of of

that trauma recurring correct that's

really important that's a huge Insight

yeah I was just going to say it was for

me that Insight was like cuz I saw it I

see it in sport as well so let me be

less dramatic than somebody almost dying

or fill in the blanks whatever trauma

The Listener is working through you can

also have it in sport so Seattle

Seahawks just for a moment we won the

Super Bowl in dramatic fashion it was

like wow like Super Bowl 48

uh 2013 okay a lot to a little a lot to

a little okay that's all that matters

yeah and it's really hard to go back the

next year and we got back the next year

and back to the Super Bowl yeah the

reason it's so hard is because your

coaches get plucked your teammates or

your your players um they get bigger

contracts from other teams so like and

there's like a 40 to 50% turnover on the

team so you got to recapture the culture

it is not a Glide path it's a hard thing

to do and we got back and we ended up

losing in the dramatic fashion as you

well remember it was like the half goal

line yeah and it was a sure thing that

the best running back in the in the

league was going to kind of walk it in

on Tom Brady's offensive our defensive

line and we're going to win back toback

which is really rare to do and we we we

made some mistakes and the ball was

turned over and we lost the game with

seconds to go on on the goal line right

okay

um it was so traumatizing nobody lost

their life right okay but that there's

no redundancy in the brain like this

part of the brain is for like hair ping

Cur Corners all death experiences and

losing games and this yeah it's the same

network right right like this highly

emotional oh my God what just happened

this is heavy I don't have a way to deal

with this right um and it was so

traumatizing for so many of the team

that um all of these mechanisms the next

year were were all of a sudden erecting

in our culture and it was really about

people not not putting them themselves

in a vulnerable position which is

required to be great so that they

wouldn't have that feeling again playing

not to lose yeah versus to win playing

that it wasn't my fault it's your fault

right you better be right and I'm not

going to put myself in a vulnerable spot

unless I know that you've figured out

why we're in this situation in the first

place right so now we were never so

everybody's a victim now yeah and so we

never got our noses pointed in the same

direction which is a very hard thing to

do and so trauma doesn't happen just

from the classic word of trauma it also

has all these other things that you know

are so emotionally volatile that they

can shape our psychology this is such a

big like the I love that you love this

yeah the bells are ringing

uh you know you look at our society

right now where you know Mass layoffs as

a mechanism to balance the books did not

exist in the United States prior to the

1980s wow it did not exist right layoffs

were used when your company faced an

existential crisis you were going

bankrupt and the only means we had was

to sacrifice our people just to keep the

company afloat but just missing the

quarter or missing the year like we're

profitable not as profitable as we had

hoped so you lose your job right

literally didn't exist wow yeah and the

the that's why people had one career

that's why it's why you had one career

they weathered the the Wall Street and

seite weathered and true loyalty existed

which is we'll take care of you and

you're going to give us your all for

your whole career and it was Mutual

you're going we're going to you're going

to give what you're going to we're going

to protect you company's going to Pro

give you offer you employment for your

whole life and in return you're going to

be super loyal and offer us your best

work you know you know what actually

Mutual yeah and you know what happened

okay so and then it became like a mafia

da thing which is I expect you to give

me the company loyalty but I'm going to

offer you nothing in return and so that

we I call that the extraction model I'm

you're going to give me everything and I

offer you nothing right and you're going

to like lose your relationship with your

kids and you should just be grateful

that I pay you yeah and by the way work

harder cuz someone else is going to take

your job that that extraction model was

a real thing for whatever reasons that

we could opine about and it's flipped

now though the workforce workers or um

people that are you know being employed

by large companies are saying yeah you

need to help me unlock I I think I think

what we're facing is more complicated

right and I think you're right but I

think the reasons how we got there are

not ideological that though it's

tempting to think it is I think it it's

it's it's traumatic right cool yeah

which is we've gone through you a a

generation lived through having no job

security it used to be believed that a

corporate job was stable and an

entrepreneurial venture was Insanity

like it was in it was insane because you

could lose you could lose everything

right but now we've created a corporate

culture where you can come in one day

thinking you're stably employed and

you've lost your job through no fault of

your own it's not a meritocracy it is

definitely not a so that's the the F the

the the fallacy and Folly is that a

corporate job these days is actually

more unstable than an entrepreneurial

venture which is considered extremely

high risk with an over 90% chance of

failure that's insane right that it's

been flipped on it head that's a cool

insight to and so and I think now you

look at the younger generation which is

everybody in the younger generation is

one degree away from a layoff my parents

got laid off no meritocracy no fault of

their own or my friend's parents or my

friends you know got laid off through no

fault of their own we're all one degree

away whether it's ourselves or somebody

else who got laid off again not a

meritocracy and so so the trauma of you

asked me to give you everything and be

and be loyal and I did and it got me

nothing or I watched other people my

friends family losed everything or my

parents lose everything I saw how it

affected my home [ __ ] you like how dare

you just demand and I don't think it's

ideological although I think people use

the language of ideology I think it's

your I think it's your Insight the fear

of being ret traumatized complet I

completely agree to add one one more

layer of

complexity um our kids if our kids were

you know High School College age and

that um it used to make sense that the

loneliest population or segment of the

population was 65 and above yeah the

loneliest segment in the United States

right now is 14 to 21 yeah so so that

type of like avoiding be being ret

traumatized and our kids are incredibly

lonely it's a pressure cooker and so

when I'm when I when I spend time with

uh of the corporate world we are we are

not talking about working harder the

hustle hard thing is um I can't ascribe

to it cuz I'm looking at people that are

exhausted and anxious and the message is

like from Elite Sport I want to show you

how we recover what happens behind the

Velvet Rope at Elite Sport is that we

spend way more time talking about daily

recovery then we talk about working hard

the environment is stimulating it's it's

great in so many ways

it's on the pressure is on in Elite

Sport the required vulnerability and

risk-taking in practice every day is

unbelievable way more than game day in

practice you've got um your peers that

are almost as good as you or in some

respects as good as

you waiting for you to make a mistake in

front of the coaches so that they can

get a shot and in particularly bad in

football that exactly and to be great

you have to you have to take a risk so

you've got to get to that messy Edge

where you don't know if you're going to

be successful or not because that's

require that vulnerability is required

to take the step to stay progressively

on a growth Arc it's really hard so day

in stress is on pressure is on day in we

need to recover in an intelligent way

and I just think that you know if we

could do a little bit better on how we

think about our future so that's anxiety

or purpose based um so when you say

future meaning not goal oriented but

rather what's the soul for

yeah so what what's the I'm I want to

win a game why I want a game so that I

become a champ why do you want to be

aamp and you keep going and going and

going until get to purpose that's not a

that's that's bigger that's bigger yeah

and you can also like I've got another

way to do that as well that is

absolutely a great exercise to do but if

we did some of that work and then um we

learned how to speak to ourselves to

back ourselves and to coach ourselves

and we're just a little bit better at

how we we worked with our own self selft

talk if you will um we figured out a

really thoughtful daily recovery program

because the stress is real we need equal

units of recovery every day and we could

start to migrate from that first pillar

of purpose we could start to just

dissolve our performance-based identity

and and be more aligned with purpose so

there's a twofold on that first one yes

no your purpose and what that does is it

it it it just allows your your identity

of like I have to perform to start to

evaporate I have to perform to matter it

starts to evaporate

and I'm performing because I want to

contribute to something that's really

meaningful and it's not Wall Street

bottom line yeah yeah yeah yeah it's

maybe to F the what are things that

you've learned over the course of your

life and career that you have adopted

yourself to Aid in your own recovery if

recovery is more important as important

if not more important than than than

yeah I can give you a ton of tactics and

I'm happy to do that right now um the

first is is like if you think about the

energy system that we have I want to be

this is going to this will make sense

for Gen xers and above but maybe not

below I want to be a really efficient

carburetor so I go to sleep at night and

I fill up all these fuel reserves and a

carburetor is this thing that sits on

top of the engine and it decides based

on how much you accelerate or put your

foot on the pedal how much fuel goes

into the

engine and if I am really nervous and

anxious and quick to frustration or int

tolerance and I'm kind of edgy and

snappy the carburetor is wide open and

energy is just coursing through the

system needlessly so because I haven't I

haven't modulated the way that I'm

seeing the world around me so the first

order of business is that I want to be

able to figure out how to see things as

opportunities rather than threats give

me an example let's say um let's say

you've got an opportunity to pitch an

idea to a board or VC firm or somebody

and

this is the last this feels like the

last one you deny deny deny deny you

know you're kind of on your the end of

your your bu actor or whatever it

doesn't matter yeah and how do you walk

in staying hopeful and seeing as an

opportunity as opposed to like if this

doesn't go well I don't know how I'm

going to eat yeah I don't know what I'm

going to

do there's a discipline required there's

a mental discipline to speak to yourself

about yourself about the opportunity

that you're working towards that is just

required and so opportunity versus

threat is kind of a big deal in the way

you frame just about anything I love it

when they mic athletes yeah and you hear

that football player going you got this

you got to do it you got this right you

got this you can do it and that's not

everybody that's just that's just some

Savages if you will yeah but I love the

fact that it's that the at the most

elite levels they still need the self

pep we all did we all do whether it's

sounds like that so here's here here's a

fun way to so I don't want to go away

from recovery but on this thread is that

one of the things that I help um

Executives and athletes alike is to know

your ideal performance

mindset so in athletes we call it ICM

ideal competitive mindset so it's the

center of the bullseye all when when all

cylinders are firing what does that feel

like what's going on inside know that

feeling that's right what does that feel

like and what are the what's the so so

it's like a bang bang experience

thoughts and feelings right thoughts and

emotions if you will so know it name it

put some sort of name on it you could

name it I don't know tiger lies you

could name it Kenny Kenny whatever that

means right yeah name it any that's

funny that's really funny so you name it

anything I wasn't actually thinking of a

name but like so like some athletes like

these two Olympians I'm working with

right now she calls hers free flow and

so that's nice it's like this free

openness but there's a there's um a flow

to the way that she's you know that's

her ideal competitive mindset that being

said is that now now everything that you

do prior to the performance is really to

get to the crescendo of the ICM or the

IPM ideal performance mindset if you're

not in sport so the way that you

physically warm up but the way that you

brush your teeth the way you get into

your car get out of your car the way

that you walk into a threshold the way

you tie your tie the way all of those

things that you do you there little

threshold moments to back yourself to

build yourself to be close just a little

closer to the

ICM and if you when you do that over

time before you know it that ICM feels

real familiar huh so you can practice

putting yourself in an ideal State and

so you you so you're just more likely to

get there more often that's the point

yeah like all the really good stuff is

right underneath the surface this is

good yeah so when you get knocked away

knocked down knocked sideways you that

the good stuff is still under there when

I say good stuff I mean the way that you

speak to yourself it's positive

productive it's like building you as

opposed to being critical or frustrated

or like pulling you you know scraping at

your core in

general if you thought about types of

thoughts there's one bucket of thoughts

which is they they create

space and another bucket of thoughts

that create constriction so when I say

uh to myself like I'm really agile I'm

really good on my feet um I can do hard

things those are two things that to me

create space and on the constriction

side when I say things to myself like um

don't [ __ ] this one up now or um make

sure you're crisp or there's a lot

riding on this thing now that creates

tension for me so I don't want to be

naive that there's maybe something not

riding on a moment but I need to create

space because my brain is already trying

to help me activate towards this thing

to to get me up for this thing that I've

I've deemed to be important this is the

threat response in our brains so I have

my sophisticated approach is to try to

be able to back all that intensity down

so I need thinking patterns that create

space so I can smile a little bit so I

can be more fluid in the way that I'm

adjusting to an unfolding unpredictable

moment I learned something pretty early

in my career I thank goodness I learned

it that I think is what you're talking

about and I learned to reframe a tense

moment to from two from two yeah so for

example um just as my career was sort of

getting to go like I find myself sharing

stages with people who are way better

than me like they're famous they're

powerhouses and I'm like what the hell

am I doing here right and now my fear

that my performance is going to be

substandard I won't live up to the

reason they invited me all of that self

talk all of that stuff just like I'm the

weakest one here you know and I learned

to reframe it like this is the most

exciting thing in the world that they

let me share the stage with these

amazing people and what ended up

happening was I let go of the

competitive nature like I didn't have to

be better than them I didn't even have

to be as good as them I just got to

share the stage with them regard of how

I did and how cool is it for me that's

it yeah and I started to have my nerves

became excitement yeah that's it so the

way you frame anything is materially

important public speaking is one of the

hardest things for people and it's

because there's no physical risk it's

all identity risk it's all ego risk

eyeballs are the danger in in these

moments is that if you are clear about

the purpose

MH not about the performance the whole

thing Chang es and you can walk on stage

and like help to get people enrolled or

engaged or interested or create an

invitation for something that you are

passionate about it totally changes

everything did I ever share with you the

little insight I had between nerves and

excitement that I learned from the

Olympics so I was watching one of the

Olympics yeah and I I realized that all

of the

journalists asked all of the athletes

the same question are you nervous or

were you nervous right right and every

athlete gave the exact same answer no

I'm excited or no I was excited right

and it's I started to realize that if

you think about what the characteristics

of nervousness are like your heart

starts pounding your hands get clam you

start envisioning the future what are

the characteristics of excitement your

heart starts pounding your hands get

claim you start envisioning the future

right and these Elite athletes had

learned to interpret that data as

excitement and the reason the

journalists said were you nervous it's

because they would be nervous that's

exactly right right because that's why

they all ask the same question cuz

they're not Elite athletes yeah and

they're not practic deal with all of

that emotion and so I did a little

experiment on myself I was sitting on a

plane and we hit some really bad

turbulence I gripped the seat nerves and

I literally said to myself this is

exciting and I immediately relaxed yeah

I mean and I reframed my own data yeah

that's exactly how this works into a

different interpretation of a different

feeling and so there so when I get

nervous always say this is exciting and

it works it works that quickly if you

catch it early and you're aware if if

you catch it really like you know we

talk about trains of thought yeah you

know and so if you're if you're unaware

and that train of thought that thought

train has been running for a while and

then you're like wait a minute my

heart's pounding I feel like I just

threw up in my mouth wait this is

excitement you're way past too late so

if you can catch it really early that

you know like you can get on the nervous

train like you were just talking about

and if you get off on stop one and you

get onto the excitement train which is

what you're doing like no problems it's

easy most people like don't are are

struggle with the awareness piece first

and then struggle with the mental tool

to adjust so it's a awareness is step

one and then psychological tools are

step two there's I mean this is the

problem of having you on this podcast

which is I want to keep going for about

like another three hours I feel the same

both times I'm really frustrated because

I haven't finished all my questions yet

such a joy such a joy I could literally

talk to you forever we have so many

unanswered questions that we you know

started to pull some strings on um I

hope we can do this again I'd like to do

it a lot more and I'd like to have you

back on the fining Mastery any day yeah

so like maybe we'll just figure out a

way to is an excuse to have each other

in our lives a little B let's just do it

yeah let's just do it regularly all

right cool so good to see

you good stuff so good thank you mate if

you enjoyed this podcast and would like

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you'd like even more optimism check out

my website simon.com for classes videos

and more until then take care of

yourself take care of each other