Mafia Boss & London Gangster Reveal Their Most Violent Crimes | Crime Stories

Summary

In this gripping dialogue, two former mobsters reflect on their lives in organized crime, discussing the rules, rituals, and realities of the 'life'. They delve into the violence, fear, and loyalty that defined their existence, the consequences of breaking the unwritten code, and the ultimate price many paid. The conversation reveals the stark contrast between the camaraderie they cherished and the treacherous path that led to their freedom, emphasizing the value of peace and the struggle to leave behind a life of crime.

Takeaways

• 😷 The script depicts a conversation between two individuals involved in organized crime, discussing the harsh realities and violent nature of their lifestyle.
• 🔫 The speakers emphasize the strict rules and codes of conduct within their organizations, including severe penalties for breaking them, such as death.
• 👤 There is a strong sense of loyalty and brotherhood among the members, with the understanding that one must be willing to commit acts of violence when necessary for the 'business'.
• 🏭 The conversation highlights the control and influence these crime families had over various aspects of society, including unions and political figures.
• 📜 The individuals took an oath to protect the organization and its members, with the understanding that betrayal would lead to severe consequences.
• 👮‍♂️ There is a deep-seated resentment and distrust towards law enforcement and the government, stemming from personal experiences of perceived harassment and injustice.
• 💔 The script reveals the personal cost of this lifestyle, with stories of friends and family members being harmed or killed, and the emotional toll it takes.
• 🚫 A strict moral code is mentioned, where certain acts are forbidden, such as harming innocents or involving family members in criminal activities.
• 🤝 There is a sense of respect among different criminal organizations, with an understanding not to encroach on each other's territories or disrupt their businesses.
• 💔 The fear of being set up or framed by the authorities is a constant concern, as is the fear of retribution from within or outside the organization.
• 🌐 The conversation touches on the differences in how organized crime is conducted in different regions, with a comparison between American and British criminal enterprises.

Q & A

What did the speaker imply about their attitude towards violence in their past life?

The speaker implied that violence was a part of their life, but they did not take pleasure in it. They viewed it as a necessary business practice, as long as it was profitable and did not involve innocent people.

How did the speaker describe their relationship with the police during their childhood?

The speaker described their relationship with the police as one of animosity and distrust. They grew up hating the police and the government because they felt they were constantly harassing their family.

What was the turning point for the speaker that led them to become involved in organized crime?

The turning point was when the speaker's father was convicted and sentenced to 50 years in prison. The speaker felt compelled to help his father by getting involved in the criminal world to find witnesses and reverse their testimonies.

What was the oath the speaker took when they became a 'made member' of the Columbo family?

The oath involved a symbolic act of cutting their finger and letting the blood drop on the floor, burning a saint's picture, and promising to be loyal to the family, not to betray or harm each other's families, and to accept death and damnation if they broke these promises.

How did the speaker's father influence their decision to leave the criminal life?

The speaker's father had advised them to be on the street the 'right way,' which might have planted the seed for the speaker to eventually question their lifestyle and seek a way out.

What was the speaker's view on the use of drugs in their community?

The speaker was strongly against drugs in their community. They mentioned chasing drug dealers out of their neighborhood, indicating a stance against drugs and their harmful effects on families.

How did the speaker describe the structure and discipline within the American Mafia?

The speaker described the American Mafia as highly organized and disciplined, with control over major cities and unions. They emphasized the importance of rules, loyalty, and the consequences of breaking them.

What was the impact of the RICO Act on the speaker and their associates?

The RICO Act had a devastating impact, leading to increased fear among criminals. It resulted in longer sentences and no parole, causing many to become informants to avoid such harsh punishments.

Why did the speaker decide to leave the criminal life?

The speaker decided to leave the criminal life because they fell in love and wanted to protect their future wife from the dangers associated with their lifestyle. They did not want her to be alone if something happened to them.

What does the speaker value most in their life after leaving the criminal world?

The speaker values peace and a sense of normalcy in their life after leaving the criminal world. They cherish the ability to enjoy family life and the absence of constant fear and paranoia.

How did the speaker's experience in prison shape their future actions in the criminal world?

The speaker's experience in prison exposed them to seasoned criminals who shared their knowledge and tactics. This learning experience in prison served as a 'university of crime,' shaping the speaker's future actions and strategies in the criminal world.

Outlines

00:00

😠 Violent Origins and Life in the Underworld

This paragraph delves into the speaker's early life and immersion in a world of crime and violence. Born into a family with ties to organized crime, the speaker recounts the constant surveillance and the impact of his father's imprisonment on his life. His father, likened to John Gotti, was accused and convicted in a high-profile case. This led the speaker to abandon his education and take to the streets to help clear his father's name, thus beginning his journey in the criminal underworld. The speaker also reflects on the harsh realities of life in this world, where transgressions are met with deadly consequences.

05:00

🔪 Initiation into Organized Crime and the Rules of the Life

The speaker describes his initiation into a life of organized crime, emphasizing the strict rules and discipline that governed their activities. He recounts the rigorous proving period, the oath of loyalty, and the symbolic ritual that marked his transformation into a 'made member' of the Columbo family. The narrative highlights the hierarchy, the commitment required, and the severe penalties for breaking the code of silence or betraying the family. The speaker also discusses the stark reality of violence and the business-like approach to criminal activities within this life.

10:02

🏙️ Contrasting Crime Syndicates: Discipline and Territory

This paragraph contrasts the organized crime structures in the United States with those in the United Kingdom. The speaker from the U.S. emphasizes the extensive control and discipline within American crime families, including their influence over unions and politicians. He also discusses the respect for territories and the unwritten rules that governed interactions between different criminal groups. The British speaker highlights the lack of a unified structure and the more localized nature of crime in the UK, with a focus on respect and non-interference in each other's territories.

15:04

🚨 The Consequences of Criminal Actions and the Oath of Silence

The speaker reflects on the consequences of their actions within the criminal world, discussing the oath of silence and the unspoken rules that governed behavior. He explains that respect and understanding of each other's backgrounds were crucial, and that breaking these rules came with severe repercussions. The narrative also touches on the fear that was inherent in this lifestyle and how it influenced decisions and actions, including the ultimate price paid for mistakes or betrayals.

20:06

📖 The Impact of RICO and the Transition to a Life of Peace

The speaker discusses the impact of the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act on organized crime, noting how it shifted the balance of power and instilled fear in criminals. He shares his personal experiences with RICO cases and the lengths he had to go to avoid a life sentence. The narrative concludes with the speaker's decision to leave the criminal life, driven by a desire to protect his loved ones and seek a peaceful existence. He emphasizes the value of peace and the freedom that comes with living a legitimate life.

25:08

💔 The Tragic Fate of Comrades and the Rarity of a Peaceful Exit

In this final paragraph, the speaker contemplates the fate of his former comrades, all of whom were murdered, and reflects on his own fortune in surviving and leaving the criminal life. He acknowledges the difficulty of escaping the underworld and the struggle it entailed. The speaker also shares his current state of happiness and contentment, having found love and a peaceful life away from crime. The paragraph ends on a hopeful note, with the speaker looking forward to marriage and a future free from the violence and uncertainty of his past.

Keywords

💡Organized Crime

Organized crime refers to a highly structured and disciplined group engaged in illegal activities for profit. In the script, the term is used to describe the operations of the Mafia and other similar groups, emphasizing their control over cities and unions, as well as their influence on politics and society. The speaker mentions how they were part of the history of the United States and had a significant impact on the country's development.

💡Underworld

The term 'underworld' is used to describe the hidden, criminal side of society that operates outside the law. In the script, it is mentioned in the context of the speaker's life and the various criminal figures he encountered, including those who were part of the 'so-called underworld' in the UK. The term illustrates the secretive and dangerous nature of this lifestyle.

💡Mafia

The Mafia is a term used to describe a specific type of organized crime family, particularly those of Italian origin. The script discusses the Mafia's influence, structure, and the speaker's personal involvement with the Columbo family, indicating the level of control and discipline within such organizations.

💡Racketeer

A racketeer is an individual who engages in fraudulent or illegal business activities, often associated with organized crime. The speaker prefers to be called a 'racketeer' rather than a 'gangster,' suggesting a more business-oriented approach to crime. This term highlights the speaker's perspective on his criminal activities as a form of business.

💡Gangster

A gangster is a criminal involved in organized crime, often characterized by violence and showiness. The script contrasts the image of a 'gangster' with that of a 'racketeer,' with the speaker distancing himself from the stereotypical, loud gangster image and identifying more with the business aspect of crime.

💡RICO Act

The RICO Act, or Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, is a federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The script mentions the impact of the RICO Act on organized crime, particularly how it led to significant prison sentences and the use of informants within criminal organizations.

💡Oath

In the context of the script, an 'oath' refers to a solemn promise or commitment, often associated with joining a criminal organization like the Mafia. The speaker describes the ritual of taking an oath, which symbolizes loyalty and the willingness to uphold the organization's rules, indicating the serious nature of the commitment.

💡Whacking

The term 'whacking' is a slang term used in the script to refer to the act of killing or assassinating someone, typically as part of a criminal organization's activities. It illustrates the violent nature of the criminal life and the consequences of breaking the organization's rules or rival conflicts.

💡Informant

An informant is a person who provides information about a criminal organization to law enforcement. The script discusses how the fear of lengthy prison sentences under the RICO Act led many individuals within organized crime to become informants, highlighting the pressure and threats faced by those involved in criminal activities.

💡Camaraderie

Camaraderie refers to the friendly, companionable relationships among a group of people. In the script, the speaker mentions missing the 'Brotherhood' or camaraderie with his fellow criminals, indicating the sense of belonging and connection that existed within the criminal organizations despite the dangerous lifestyle.

💡Peace of Mind

Peace of mind is a state of mental and emotional tranquility and the absence of stress or anxiety. The speaker describes finding peace of mind after leaving the criminal life, emphasizing the constant fear and stress that were part of his previous existence. This term reflects the personal transformation and the value of a peaceful life.

Highlights

The speaker expresses a desire for complete control over what is theirs, indicating a zero-tolerance policy for any infringement.

A life of violence is described, with strict codes against harming certain individuals like family members and fellow 'family' members.

The interviewee discusses the influence of his father's involvement in organized crime and how it shaped his early life.

A deep-seated resentment towards law enforcement is revealed, stemming from childhood experiences of police surveillance.

The impact of a father's imprisonment on the interviewee's life path, leading him to abandon education for a life of crime.

The concept of loyalty and the initiation process into becoming a 'made member' of a crime family is detailed.

A strict hierarchy and code of conduct within the crime family, including severe repercussions for disobedience.

The interviewee's first-hand account of the brutal reality of crime life, witnessing the aftermath of violence within his circle.

A shift in perspective as the interviewee recounts a pivotal moment that led to his eventual departure from the crime world.

The interviewee reflects on the difficulty of leaving the crime life and the psychological challenges involved.

A comparison between the organized crime structures in the United States and the United Kingdom, highlighting differences in organization and control.

The interviewee discusses the influence of the RICO Act on the crime world and its impact on the decision-making of criminals.

An account of the interviewee's experiences with law enforcement and the legal system, including numerous arrests and trials.

The interviewee's ranking on a list of the most powerful mob bosses and his reflections on the treacherous nature of the crime life.

A discussion on the fear and consequences associated with life in the crime world, including the ultimate price of betrayal.

The interviewee shares his reasons for leaving the crime life, emphasizing the desire for a peaceful and stable life.

The interview concludes with the interviewee expressing gratitude for his current life, free from the crime world, and the value of peace.

Transcripts

I don't want a piece of the cake I want

all the cake that's mine if they come

with Mya and they started like musing on

me I'm going to shoot them it's a

violent life at times that's the street

you violate another man's wife daughter

sister mother you're dead yeah you deal

with drugs you're dead yeah you hit

another maid man you're

dead Bobby Michael Francis

meet please to meet and it's it's a

privilege for me because I've heard so

many great things about you Bobby really

I'm not being fny that go two ways don't

he it's two way traffic because I've

heard great things about you don't wish

to embarrass you but as soon as people

see you they go Mafia you know soon as

people see me they go the underworld

they call me a gangster I go I'm not a

gangster you know never ever been a

gangster gangsters these people they

show offs they're loud they I don't do

that I'm polite and a businessman whose

business is crime you know well you're

you're a

racketeer and I I like to consider

myself more of a racketeer than a

gangster it just sounds

[Music]

better what was it like when when you

was a kid and you was born cuz your

family your father was in mixed up in

organized crime wasn't it yeah so what

was it like did you feel you at to go

that way or was it my dad was kind of

like the John Gotti of his day yeah very

high profile always under investigation

major Target of law enforcement back in

my day when uh you were under

investigation they wanted you to know

about it and for a period of you know 10

12 years I'm growing up we've got agents

around us all the time sitting outside

our house 24 hours a day we get in the

car they follow us I go to a ball game

they follow us so I grew up hating the

police I hated them I hated the

government cuz I always looked at them

as harass my family right and then they

indict him on some phony case for

masterminding a nationwide string of

bank robber he supposedly ordered the

bank robberies he goes to trial gets

convicted they give him 50 years I was

18 years old 19 I was devastated because

you figure 50 years he's never coming

out alive he was 50 when he went in So

at the time Joe Columbo was very close

to our family my dad was the under boss

and he kind of takes me under his wing

and I'm meeting a lot of my dad's

friends so I go see my dad in prison I

said Dad bank robbery and Bobby I'll

never forget he looked me in the eye and

he never lied to me and he said son I'm

innocent yeah I was framed on this case

he said and we have to find these

Witnesses get them to reverse their

testimony or I'm going to die in here

yeah so I don't go to school anymore and

I'm on the street now and I'm trying to

help my father and that's how I got

involved really Michael that's why why I

feel for you cuz I know what you're

talking about we come a poor area and

that was all straight people in my

family I worked in a shipping office

doing um inves and that sort of thing go

through a park two coppers go in the

park they've gone out of there they've

come back with a Cutthroat razor threw

it on the ground and said we just see

you throw it out your pocket right Nick

me they go down police station they

don't my mom and dad they all working

normal people they're brokenhearted

their son's been arrested what's that he

don't that come I said to my dad I said

they they fitted me up he went what I

said they fra me I said I didn't have it

and he went well policeman don't tell

lies I mean he was that naive he went

polic no he was right he was that naive

if you take a bill guilty you get like

in in your country a dollar fine right

if you pleader not guilty then you're

going to jail the young offenders jail

right my mom's crying I don't know my

family Michael so I go guilty on it go

back to work the next day I'm sacked

because you can't work in a shipping

office with invoices if you got a

criminal record but there was no

criminality in my mind at that time soon

as they done that then I was hearing

people doing arm robberies and all that

and someone said you want to come on arm

robbery all have some of that get the S

off stuck out there nothing in it so I

get a senior Detention Center label

youngest person youngest person in Great

Britain to be with a sa off at the age

of 16 stick out so there brutal Place

Michael by this time and now I'm the

criminal mine's coming in cultured I've

met other criminals in there and they're

telling me how they do it so I'm

learning off of them prison is the best

university of crime is the best place to

learn

[Music]

stuff when I visited my father and he

said to me son if you're going to be on

the street I want you on the street the

right way yeah and this is in the

visiting room 11worth he said if you

ever had to kill anybody could you do it

I thought about it I was 19 years old I

said under the right conditions yeah I

could do it dad he said to me that's the

right answer yeah and he said go home

somebody's going to be in touch with you

just do what you told two weeks later a

captain picked me up took me to see the

boss and I sat with him and he said

Michael I got a message from your father

you want to become a member of our life

is that true I said yes he said here's

the deal this is how serious it was from

now on 24 hours a day seven days a week

you're on call to serve this family that

means if your mother is sick and she's

dying and you're at her bedside we call

you to service you leave your mother you

come and serve us from now on we're

number one in your life before anything

and everything when and if we feel you

deserve this privilege this honor to

become a member we'll let you know I was

20 21 years old I'm in kind of like a

recruit period where I had to do

anything and everything I'm told to do

to prove myself worthy that lasted like

two and a half years

and again discipline Authority you know

Drive the boss to a meeting sit in the

car 3 hours God forbid you leave he

comes out you go to the restroom with

everything you're not there you're in a

lot of trouble I know I did that once I

made that

mistake you had a meeting at 8:00 you

weren't there at 7:30 can never be late

in that life you always had to I don't

care if there's an earthquake you had to

figure out how to be on time go there

the night before you know so 2 and 1/2

years later I'm called into a room with

five gentleman and that night we all

took an oath and became maid members of

of Columbo

family and so we walked into a room

individually the boss was seated like

the head of a horseshoe configuration

the under boss ciliary to his left and

right all the captains C James were

alongside of them we had about 15 in our

family at that point I walked down the

aisle stood in front of the boss I held

out my hand right near cut my finger

some blood dropped on the floor I cued

my hands took a picture of a saint the

cathol alter card lit it a flame it

didn't hurt it burned quickly it was

just symbolic and he said tonight

Michael Frances you are born again into

a new life into cin orra violate what

you know about this life betray your

brothers and you'll die and burn in hell

like the saint is burning in your hands

do you accept yes I do and that's the

oath yeah I'll tell you Michael it's you

know the ritual thing we never did

mhm thing you there's my heart there's

my hand

yeah that's the only ritual we had

there's my heart there's my hand in

other words I'll never betray you I

never hurt your family you know you

don't hurt mine and there was them rules

and you don't cause trouble in someone

else's patch and ruin their business cuz

it CS gang Warfare right and people got

shot and people got killed and cuz you

had buses of they call it the under

world but buses that was running firms

you know and as kids we look up to them

you know go we just if you like tving it

we with doing you know maybe cutting

each other up or eting each other with

hatchets or shooting each other but

these guys they had the big car they was

the real deal and you and someone said

to me they went would you like to be

like him you know and this guy's name

was Billy o at the time I said no I went

you want I went no I want to be

[Music]

better you violate another man wife

daughter sister mother you're dead yeah

you deal with drugs you're dead you hit

another maid man you're dead so we're

all told the same thing so we think at

that time okay if we understand if we

break the rules we can pay for it with

our life so we justify it you know I

mean I had a guy who was close to me

like my brother I loved a guy

unknowingly he's H he's married I

baptized his son he's having an affair

with my sister blood man you can't

survive that you know unfortunately I I

I tell you what happened to me my first

experience and I had many unfortunately

there was a guy that uh it was a Jewish

guy actually but very close to my dad

very close to me right and when my

father went away he was kind of like a

second father to

me he made a mistake I don't want to get

into all the details and and this was

the first eye opening experience I had

and he got it beat up I mean really bad

devast I mean they they just they just

mutilated his body so I went to the

funeral and his sister came up to me and

she said Michael look what these animals

and it happened within the life look

what these animals did to my brother it

was a closed coffin she Ops the cofin

and I'll be honest with you Bobby almost

got sick he was

unrecognizable that's when I got a

bird's eyye view of what the life was

really all about and then I'm at a you

know a rally and Joe Columbo who is my

boss who I love

get shot I'm 12 steps away from him he

di he died eventually from the wounds

like even in my own life like allegedly

I've shot quite a few people and

allegedly um shot them but as I said to

people what I realized now Michael what

I didn't care then it was business it

was just part of the business they come

in one day old frank cuz a lot of my

people were Irish and Frank come in he

said the the Chinese skers want to see

you this thing about Triads now i' done

jail with the Triads and the m and the

tongue and all that I knew that were

nasty bits of work you know and I went

this is heavy I said get the guns out I

said if they want to meet you we're

going to meet these but we meet them off

the manner in a nice quiet place cuz if

it does go off I don't want cameras

going everywhere so to be honest with

you yeah I had cuz it's known I had a

saw off under my coat and they're

expecting when they all say back Bobby

CS they're expecting a guy like a Dorman

yeah I mean I'm 5 fo six more fat on a

greasy chip Michael you know what I mean

and uh but I got the gun and we get out

and meet this guy and he's come up it

looked like s from out of a gangster he

must have been watching American

Gangster movie films he got he got the

dark glasses down there you know he said

we're going to come on here we're going

to S hello he said then we give you oh

you what and I said you're not selling

that crap on my house it destroys

families and I'm I'm passionate about it

I won't have it you know and uh he went

he's don't M his coat he's pulled out an

AET and he went we Cho people up me is

that right threw back the over Co pulled

out the S I mean I'll blow your you know

I went now you said get back to Gerard

street or wherever you come from Soo I

said but you come here I'm going to

shoot you in the face I said you got

where I'm coming

[Music]

from I'm sure there's a difference way

between the way we operate look I I

always say this

Mafia Cen orra we can talk about it now

existed in America yeah survived and

prospered for well over 100 years I mean

you got to understand we had tremendous

control number one we controlled all the

unions if you control the unions in the

United States you control the country

yeah yeah and we got money so they got

votes and money and we were very

organized and you can you can say what

you want but we were part of the history

of the United States that's why you see

so much about it going back we're part

of History it was different in in this

country Mike in as much as people

controlled areas they weren't organized

in the way you're talking about

organized crime right they weren't

organized that way they was organized

amongst their own selves we work

separately but we respected each other

that's the underworld or the so-called

underworld worlds we knew each other we

grew up as kids so we knew each other on

the Block so we only work with those we

knew you had really every people that

was running their own sort of organiz

crime but if they come on my and they

started like musing on me I'm going to

shoot them because that's mine I don't

want a piece of the cake I want all the

cake that's mine right but I ain't going

to come and steal your cake yeah so

that's how it worked then so we were

organized crime in our little areas but

we if if we' all got together which was

what the crazy trying to do but craze

weren't the right people to do it with

the craze they said run London no they

didn't run London they was every in the

east then they was no different to what

we are today Charlie Richardson there he

in this country was head of what they

called the torture gang they run south

London and in in fact i' probably say

that was the nearest thing we come to

proper organized crime was the

Richardsons they were forget the craze

they weren't on that level they they'd

like to have been on that level but

Charlie Richardson that F they was

earning lots of money they was doing

everything had mines in South Africa

working with the government over there

it it weren't an organization like

you're talking about no it was different

with us we we controlled major cities

New York was under our control Chicago

New Orleans Florida Kansas City

Cleveland we had tremendous control back

then and again because we're very

organized and very disciplined and a lot

of politicians worked with us you know

so you know they were they were anyone

we'd know any politicians we'd know that

Michael no no no we don't go down that

route um you would know them not Trump

yeah although I knew Trump I met Trump

uh we had the same lawyer Roy Cohen was

and I had met Donald and I be honest

with we we we did business through the

unions because he was a builder he was a

developer and a contractor but that's it

doesn't mean you were part of organized

crime you're just doing business right

that's just the way it was that's right

so legitimate people had to deal with us

in that regard it didn't mean they were

part of our life you know so let me ask

you this you think uh you think you

London guys could have learned from us

or what what I think yes we could have

the structure thing I think you could

have learned from us as well

into if you

like you you were too close so when they

come for you bang they come for the lot

then when they come for us we were

fragmented so once one got nicked we all

whoa but you were too locked in you were

too locked in but the the discipline and

the rules yes 100% that we could have

learned a lot from

[Music]

that and in our world we had BRS things

we could do things we couldn't do like

you couldn't shoot a main in front of

his wife and kids you didn't go and

shoot women and children you couldn't

shoot the cops you couldn't shoot the

media cuz it messed up everyone's

business and that's what people didn't

understand about me it was purely

business I didn't take any pleasure

doing it Michael why I didn't mind doing

it if it made money you know there was

things that were tolerated and there

things that were noo areas and if you

broke them rules then you picked up you

got you picked up the price rate and if

you stepped on someone's toes you know

if they was running a business and you

you mled in on that then you'd either

have to ever sit down talk or guns was

going off there was respect in a

criminal way there where we respect each

other we know each other's background

there was no fibs you couldn't boost it

up you know it well you know what is

there's consequences you know we

understood we had to we had to magic

word we had to you know follow the rules

or you had consequences now it didn't

always go you know you saw things that

maybe it shouldn't have been done that

way but for the most because you're

still on the street yeah but for the

most part you stayed in line because you

knew there were consequences if you

didn't when we take an oath people think

we took an oath to lie steal cheat kill

murder that's not what the oath was

about yeah the means silence a lot of

people don't understand in our

neighborhoods there was no crime yeah

people respected us cuz we kept

everything right there was drugs in the

neighborhood we chase them out you know

or

[Music]

Worse the worst thing you could ever do

amongst aot was To Kill An innocent in

other words some many who weren't

involved in crime you know and um and I

did it was a robbery that went wrong

they choked on a gaff on a gag on their

own vment and died that with all the

other supposedly shootings or whatever I

suppos to have done and whacking people

right allegedly I've done all these

things but it got to a stage Michael

where it got ridiculous I mean someone

caught a cold when I was doing North Lon

and I was the one who give it and I got

blamed for a lot of things I know what

I've done and I Adit but of done look we

have to admit we did some bad things in

that life one of the horrors of my life

and I don't know if it's a same with you

you make a mistake your best friend

walks you into a room you don't walk out

again and obviously in my life I

experienced that right A friend of mine

he comes to me I'm a captain he was one

of my guys again I knew him my whole

life Michael I got involved in a small

drug deal with the boss's

son he said I'm going to be in trouble I

said you been in his life for 25 years

don't worry about it we'll straighten it

all out so he was so afraid I I was

leaving to go to Florida I was in New

York I had my own plane at that time I

says to him don't worry about it when I

get back I'll straighten it all out not

a problem he was so much in fear Bobby

the guy goes into a phone booth calls

his wife says goodbye to her and blows

his brains out in the phone booth

because he said I'm not going to let

anybody walk me into a room I'm not

going out that way so what you said

about fear was certainly a major part of

that life and I I can't tell you I mean

so of the guys I knew just got

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killed normally the way things go a

crime is committed yeah and police go

out and investigate the crime that's

right with guys like us they investigate

us trying to find the crime you it goes

the opposite way in one you got it in

one you know the opposite way they're

trying to build a case against you you

catch me doing it on camera you catch me

doing it I don't do nothing same thing I

used to tell the agents hey look you're

on one side I'm on the other that's

right you catch me you do your job you

get me hey fine just don't frame me I

was arrested probably 18 times dur my

time on the street but I went to trial

five

times okay five times I was either

dismissed or acquitted yeah yeah every

case was a bad case every case was a

setup yeah they never got me for what I

was doing they were making up all this

stuff for what I didn't do and this

place is like you you took a fool I took

a fool for what I didn't do you know so

when they say oh you know police cases

oh there's no smoke without fire I

always say to magicians make smoke but

there's no fire you know I'll tell you

what happened in the United States when

they came out with the racketeering law

the RICO Act it was a devastating

statute all my friend myself I had three

Reco cases three yeah but um what

happened is that the fear of guys on the

street was transferred to the government

because now you go down on one count 20

years yeah no parole you get 20 you're

doing 17 and a half that's right so what

happens a lot of the guys they put him

in a room they Indi him on Rico and they

say hey you got five counts you're going

away for a hundred years and that's the

kind of time they were giving guys I was

facing like 300 years so many guys

became informant rolled over cuz they

were afraid yeah they're afraid to spend

their rest of their life in prison how

much time did you do BU 13 years 13 yeah

it's a good stretch I did eight it's

enough yeah in 1986 Fortune Magazine

wrote a big article 50 most powerful and

biggest mob bosses in the country it was

half the magazine huge article I was in

jail at the time and they featured six

of us I was one of the six and then they

have a chart and they they lab the 50 of

us according to rank and wealth and

power right I'm number 18 on the list

I'm the youngest guy on the list I was

five behind Gotti he hadn't been made B

yet out of that list of 50 some 30 odd

years later 48 of them are dead number

49 is doing life and I'm the only one

alive and free that's a very treacherous

life to navigate if you die of old age

and you die free you've really

accomplished something this is what I'm

saying I'm 72 now Mike right and I've so

am I way are you really yes

congratulations same to you when's your

birthday 23rd November I'm I'm a

Sagittarian I'm older than you Bobby no

right you're cutting ears now Michael

cutting I'm in May May of 51 you're in

November 51 respect your elders

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now the reason I walked away from that

life I call it a bad life and evil life

now I'm not calling a guys evil I was

one of them you know I just happen to be

very fortunate but I have not I don't

know any family of any member of that

life including my own not my wife and

kids I spared them that hasn't been

totally

devastated walk away yeah but mik I

think I've got that's why I left the

life I I got to tell you I'm I've meet

this young girl she's now my wife of 38

years I fall very much in love with her

I want to marry her I said am I going to

do the same thing to her cuz I had a big

bullseye on my back they wouldn't leave

me alone I said I'm going to marry this

girl and she's going to be alone for the

rest of her life I got to make a choice

and that's what caused me to start to

get out of the life I'll tell you what

that was a blessing for you 100% that

was a blessing for you sometimes people

say do you miss the old life and in a

way I say yes some some parts I I miss

some positive too and but I say would

you have it now no cuz as I said you

know I've got peace now and that is

priceless to me I walked away from it

and but as you said the hardest thing

easiest thing is getting into it hardest

thing is coming at it takes a very

special man it was hard to get away I

mean my my whole mindset was so it it

was a struggle to leave you know it took

took me years people ask me you know

Michael what do you miss about the life

if anything and it wasn't the money and

all of that because anybody can make

money you make money anyway but it was

that Brotherhood that camaraderie with

the guys I look at it there and I tell

you I've got a beautiful life now

Michael I've got something that money

could never buy I got peace yeah and

I've got this little family and they're

beautiful little kids and all and I went

out with them and and it was not just

seeing me I I know it sounds crazy

Michael but seeing laughing and running

about and I love it I couldn't do that

in my previous life I had to be sitting

there like that I'm wondering who is

someone coming to whack me is someone

going to come in and try and take over I

never had Peace of Mind Michael yeah how

many kids you have I've got uh one

daughter alive one daughter Dead uh but

I'm getting married so I've got one two

three you get married again yeah yeah I

like wedding congratulations I like

wedding cake Michael no I'm I'm so in

love it's it's untrue when are you

getting married there uh we're not going

afford it you know I ain't got the I

ain't got all the I was going to say if

I'm in town i' I'd be a pleasure

to you you get an invite anyway okay all

right you got an invite anyway there you

go thank you and that's the end of good

and the end of

in 1975 I actually took an oath uh with

five other gentlemen became a sworn made

member of the family and just to show

you how fortunate I am the Five Guys

that I took the oath with they were all

murdered later on every one of them none

of them survived