The Ladders of Wealth Creation: A Step-By-Step Roadmap to Building Wealth With Nathan Barry

Summary

En este podcast, Nathan Berry, creador de ConvertKit, comparte su enfoque sobre la creación de riqueza a través de un marco de cuatro escalones: tiempo por dinero, negocio de servicios propio, servicios productizados y venta de productos. Expone la importancia de adquirir habilidades y aplicar el principio de la ganancia a medida que se escala. Además, discute ocho principios para aumentar la riqueza y los ingresos a largo plazo, enfocándose en la reinvestización de tiempo y dinero, la validación a través de etapas y la acumulación de audiencia para facilitar el crecimiento. Berry también destaca la capacidad de la riqueza para generar impacto y libertad, compartiendo su experiencia personal y la de otros exitosos en el ámbito de la creación de negocios y la inversión.

Takeaways

• 📈 La creación de riqueza es una habilidad que se puede adquirir y perfeccionar a través de la práctica y la adquisición de habilidades específicas.
• 🔑 Se describen cuatro escalones principales en la creación de riqueza: tiempo por dinero, negocio de servicios propio, servicios productivados y venta de productos.
• 🕒 El primer escalón, 'tiempo por dinero', implica trabajos por horas o salarios, y requiere habilidades básicas como la puntualidad y la confiabilidad.
• 👨‍💼 El segundo escalón es el negocio de servicios propio, donde se asume más responsabilidad y se adquieren habilidades como encontrar clientes y contratar empleados.
• 🔑 El tercer escalón, servicios productivados, es una forma de vender servicios de manera más sistemática y con menos interacción directa, introduciendo así el concepto de venta y cumplimiento sin la necesidad de la presencia del vendedor.
• 🛍️ El cuarto escalón es la venta de productos, que puede escalar significativamente y crear ingresos pasivos, pero requiere habilidades avanzadas en marketing, posicionamiento y venta.
• 💡 La importancia de la acumulación de habilidades y el uso de herramientas y tecnologías adecuadas para potenciar el negocio y aumentar la eficiencia.
• 💰 La reinvestigación de tiempo y dinero en la mejora continua del negocio y la adquisición de nuevas habilidades es fundamental para el crecimiento.
• 🔄 La creación de riqueza implica no solo ganar dinero, sino también construir activos y equidad que generen flujo de caja y valor a largo plazo.
• 👪 La riqueza también se mide en términos de impacto en la vida de las personas, como asegurar la estabilidad financiera de los seres queridos y la capacidad de hacer una diferencia positiva en la sociedad.
• 🌐 El uso de la tecnología y soluciones en línea, como ConvertKit, para automatizar y gestionar eficientemente las listas de correo y las comunicaciones con los clientes.

Q & A

¿Qué es el objetivo principal del podcast de finanzas personales en este episodio?

El objetivo principal del podcast es discutir y explicar los cuatro escalones de creación de riqueza presentados por Nathan en su entrada del blog, que es una guía paso a paso para construir riqueza a través de negocios o incluso comenzar un side hustle.

¿Cuáles son los cuatro escalones de creación de riqueza que Nathan describe en su publicación del blog?

Los cuatro escalones son: 1) Tiempo por dinero, 2) Tu propio negocio de servicios, 3) Servicios productivados y 4) Venta de productos.

¿Qué importancia tiene el concepto de 'hacer dinero es una habilidad' en el proceso de creación de riqueza según Nathan?

La idea de que 'hacer dinero es una habilidad' es fundamental porque sugiere que se puede aprender y mejorar con la práctica y la acumulación de miles de pequeñas habilidades, al igual que cualquier otra habilidad en la vida.

¿Por qué es importante aprender las habilidades básicas en la primera escalera antes de ascender a las siguientes?

Aprender las habilidades básicas en la primera escalera, como la puntualidad y la confiabilidad, es crucial porque estas habilidades son transferibles y serán valiosas en todas las etapas del negocio y la vida profesional.

¿Cómo describe Nathan el proceso de transición de una escalera a otra en términos de riesgos y validación?

Nathan enfatiza que el proceso de transición de una escalera a otra debe ser cuidadoso y calculado. Saltarse etapas puede resultar en una falta de validación y un aumento de riesgos, lo que puede conducir a fracasos si no se han aprendido las lecciones pertinentes de cada escalera.

¿Qué es una 'empresa de servicios productivados' y cómo se relaciona con la creación de riqueza?

Una 'empresa de servicios productivados' es un negocio donde los servicios se ofrecen de manera más sistemática y con menos interacción cara a cara. Esto permite una mayor escala y la introducción de la ventaja, lo que puede ser increíble para la creación de riqueza.

¿Cómo define Nathan la ventaja y cómo puede ser utilizada en la creación de riqueza?

Nathan define la ventaja como un elemento neutral que amplifica las cosas, y puede ser increíble para la construcción de riqueza cuando se utiliza correctamente en diferentes etapas del negocio.

¿Por qué es recomendable reinvertir el tiempo y el dinero en lugar de gastarlo todo?

Reinvertir el tiempo y el dinero proporciona un respaldo y flexibilidad financiera que permite a las personas moverse entre las escaleras de manera más segura y con menos estrés, facilitando así el crecimiento y la expansión del negocio.

¿Qué es la diferencia entre trabajar por un mejor salario y construir verdadera riqueza según lo explica Nathan?

La diferencia radica en la creación de activos y flujo de caja continuo. Trabajar por un mejor salario es intercambiar tiempo por dinero, mientras que construir riqueza implica crear o adquirir activos que produzcan ingresos de forma periódica y sostenida.

¿Cómo describe Nathan el impacto que tuvo vender una pequeña porción de su compañía y cómo refleja su definición de riqueza?

Nathan describe el impacto como significativo, ya que vendiendo un porcentaje pequeño de su compañía, logró asegurar la jubilación financiera de sus padres y la de su esposa, lo que refleja su definición de riqueza como la capacidad de tener un impacto positivo en las vidas de las personas cercanas.

¿Cómo sugiere Nathan que las personas pueden construir una audiencia y por qué es importante para el negocio?

Nathan sugiere que las personas pueden construir una audiencia compartiendo su viaje e intereses, enseñando lo que aprenden y trabajando en público. Es importante para el negocio porque una audiencia te apoya y te sigue en tu camino, lo que puede ser una gran ventaja en el mundo empresarial.

¿Qué lecciones aprendió Nathan de su experiencia con ConvertKit y cómo aplicó esas lecciones a su vida personal y empresarial?

Nathan aprendió que construir un negocio exitoso toma tiempo y que el proceso puede ser más largo de lo esperado, pero los resultados pueden ser increíbles. Aplica estas lecciones mejorando constantemente su producto, atendiendo a su audiencia y asegurando que su equipo esté bien financiado y apoyado.

Outlines

00:00

😀 Bienvenida a un podcast sobre finanzas personales

El podcast comienza con una introducción de Nathan, quien es el invitado especial. Se menciona un blog post que él escribió llamado 'las escaleras de la creación de riqueza', que fue una fuente de inspiración para el host. El post es una guía paso a paso para construir riqueza, especialmente para aquellos interesados en negocios o en iniciar un side hustle. Se destaca la importancia de entender que hacer dinero es una habilidad que se puede adquirir y desarrollar.

05:01

🤔 Las cuatro escaleras de la creación de riqueza

Nathan explica las cuatro escaleras que representa su modelo para construir riqueza. La primera escalera es el intercambio de tiempo por dinero, como trabajos por hora o salarios. La segunda escalera implica tener tu propio negocio de servicios. La tercera escalera se refiere a servicios productivados y la cuarta a la venta de productos. Cada escalera requiere habilidades específicas y un nivel de compromiso y responsabilidad creciente.

10:03

💼 La importancia de aprender habilidades básicas y la transición a un negocio propio

Se discute la importancia de adquirir habilidades básicas como la puntualidad y la confiabilidad al comienzo de la carrera, ya sea en trabajos por hora o posiciones salariadas. Con el tiempo, y al adquirir más habilidades, se puede avanzar a trabajos mejor remunerados o a la creación de un negocio propio. Se resalta la idea de que el crecimiento profesional y la acumulación de riqueza requieren la adquisición de una variedad de habilidades y la superación de retos incrementales.

15:04

🚀 Crear un negocio de servicios y aprovechar las oportunidades de productización

Nathan habla sobre la transición de un trabajo salarial a tener un negocio propio, destacando la diferencia entre un negocio de servicios y la productización de servicios. Menciona la necesidad de aprender habilidades adicionales, como encontrar clientes y contratar empleados, y cómo la productización de servicios puede ser una forma de vender proyectos o paquetes de servicios de manera más sistemática y con menos interacción directa con los clientes.

20:06

🛍️ La venta de productos y la introducción de la ventaja

El cuarto escalón se enfoca en la venta de productos, donde se alcanza una verdadera ventaja al separar el tiempo de la monetización. Se discuten diferentes tipos de productos, desde productos digitales hasta software como servicio (SaaS) y marketplaces. Se señala la importancia de no saltarse etapas y de aprender las lecciones adecuadas en cada escalón para tener éxito en la creación de riqueza.

25:07

💹 Pricipios para aumentar la riqueza y los ingresos a lo largo del tiempo

Se introducen ocho principios para el crecimiento de la riqueza y los ingresos. El primero enfatiza la necesidad de reinvertir tiempo y dinero adquiridos. Se sugiere que el ahorro y la reinvestigación de capital pueden proporcionar la flexibilidad y el amortiguamiento necesarios para enfrentar los desafíos de cambiar de una escalera a otra en el proceso de construcción de riqueza.

30:08

🔄 La validación y las lecciones clave al omitir etapas en la construcción de riqueza

Nathan discute cómo omitir etapas en el proceso de construcción de riqueza puede llevar a la falta de validación y a la acumulación de un conjunto más grande de habilidades en un solo proyecto. Se argumenta que, aunque es posible saltarse etapas, es importante comprender que esto puede prolongar el tiempo hasta ver resultados y que las lecciones de cada escalón son fundamentales para el éxito.

35:08

🏗️ Aplicar habilidades existentes de una forma innovadora para construir riqueza

Se explora la idea de cómo se pueden aplicar habilidades existentes de nuevas maneras para generar ingresos y riqueza. Se mencionan ejemplos de personas que han utilizado habilidades específicas, como la construcción o la creación de contenido, para desarrollar negocios adicionales y fuentes de ingresos pasivos.

40:10

📈 Diferencia entre ganar un mejor salario y construir verdadera riqueza

Nathan destaca la diferencia fundamental entre trabajar por un salario más alto y la construcción de riqueza a largo plazo. Se enfatiza que la riqueza se construye a través de la creación de activos y la inversión en cosas que generan flujo de caja y valor a lo largo del tiempo, como la propiedad de bienes raíces o la creación de negocios con valor duradero.

45:11

🤑 Utilizando una escalera anterior para financiar la siguiente en la construcción de riqueza

Se discute la importancia de utilizar el éxito en una etapa para financiar el paso a la siguiente en el proceso de construcción de riqueza. Se argumenta que esto puede proporcionar una medida de seguridad financiera y flexibilidad para abordar los desafíos y riesgos asociados con el crecimiento y la expansión de un negocio.

50:13

👥 La importancia del público y la atención en el crecimiento del negocio

Nathan habla sobre cómo cada etapa del proceso de construcción de riqueza se vuelve más fácil con una audiencia. Se sugiere que atraer y mantener la atención de otras personas es fundamental para el crecimiento del negocio y se discuten estrategias para construir una audiencia loable.

55:15

🏘️ La historia de éxito de ConvertKit y la lección de paciencia en la construcción de riqueza

Nathan comparte su experiencia con ConvertKit, una plataforma de correo electrónico y automatización de marketing. Se describe cómo la empresa experimentó un crecimiento inicial lento, pero luego se impulsó a niveles mucho más altos después de un periodo de dos años. Se destaca la importancia de la paciencia y la persistencia en la construcción de riqueza, y cómo los resultados a largo plazo pueden ser increíblemente satisfactorios.

🎉 La emoción de ver a los creadores ganar dinero y el impacto de ConvertKit

Nathan expresa su entusiasmo por ver a los creadores de contenido utilizar ConvertKit para ganar dinero y mejorar su vida financiera. Se celebra el hito de haber pagado 10 millones de dólares a creadores a través de Convert Market Commerce, y se destaca la satisfacción de ayudar a otros a alcanzar la independencia financiera.

💡 Consejos sobre dinero y la comprensión de que hacer dinero es una habilidad

Nathan reflexiona sobre los consejos financieros que ha recibido y destaca la importancia de entender que hacer dinero es una habilidad que se puede aprender y mejorar. Se argumenta que esta comprensión cambia la mentalidad y permite a las personas tomar control de sus resultados financieros y de riqueza.

🌟 La riqueza como una herramienta para el impacto y la libertad financiera

Nathan define la riqueza no solo en términos de acumulación de activos, sino como una capacidad para tener un impacto positivo en la vida de las personas que le rodean. Se describe cómo la riqueza ha permitido a él y su familia asegurar un futuro financiero estable y cómo la venta de una pequeña porción de su empresa ha tenido un efecto dominó en la vida de su familia.

📚 Recursos de Nathan para aquellos interesados en construir audiencia y negocios

Nathan proporciona información sobre cómo seguir su trabajo, desde sus cuentas de Twitter hasta su blog y su boletín informativo. También promueve ConvertKit como una herramienta para ayudar a los creadores de contenido a construir y gestionar su audiencia y negocios.

Keywords

💡Laderas de la creación de riqueza

El concepto de 'Laderas de la creación de riqueza' es una metáfora utilizada en el video para describir los diferentes niveles o etapas que una persona puede seguir para construir riqueza a través de negocios o emprendimientos. Las laderas son un marco para entender y navegar el proceso de acumulación de riqueza, y se mencionan en el contexto de la estructuración de un negocio y la introducción de elementos de crecimiento escalable.

💡Tiempo por dinero

Este término hace referencia a la primera escalera en el modelo de 'Laderas de la creación de riqueza', donde el trabajo es compensado por horas trabajadas. Es una forma tradicional de ganar dinero y se relaciona con trabajos de的性质 basados en la jornada laboral, como trabajos de verano o empleos salariales. En el script, se menciona como el primer paso en el desarrollo de habilidades básicas para el crecimiento empresarial.

💡Negocio de servicios propios

La 'Negocio de servicios propios' se refiere a la segunda escalera, donde una persona ofrece servicios basados en habilidades específicas, generalmente a cambio de una tarifa por hora o un pago por proyecto. Este concepto es clave en el video, ya que representa el paso de trabajar por otros a trabajar por uno mismo y es un hito importante en la ruta hacia la independencia financiera y empresarial.

💡Servicios productivados

Los 'Servicios productivados' son una etapa intermedia entre los negocios de servicios y la venta de productos. Se trata de servicios que se ofrecen de manera más sistemática y que pueden ser vendidos sin la necesidad de una interacción cara a cara, como paquetes de diseño de marca o servicios de edición de videos. En el video, se discute cómo este nivel introduce el concepto de venta sin la necesidad de interacción directa y cómo puede ser una forma de escalar un negocio.

💡Venta de productos

La 'Venta de productos' es la cuarta y última escalera mencionada en el video y representa el nivel más escalable de todos. Aquí, los productos pueden ser físicos, digitales o servicios que se venden sin la necesidad de interacción directa con el cliente. Este concepto es central en el video, ya que ilustra el uso de la venta de productos para alcanzar una escala más amplia y potencialmente generar ingresos pasivos.

💡Habilidades

Las 'Habilidades' son mencionadas en el video como componentes esenciales en el proceso de construcción de riqueza. Se refiere a las capacidades y conocimientos específicos que una persona puede adquirir y aplicar en su camino para generar ingresos y construir un negocio exitoso. Ejemplos de habilidades mencionadas en el script incluyen la consistencia en el trabajo, la confiabilidad y la habilidad para vender y empaquetar productos de manera efectiva.

💡Escalado

El término 'Escalado' se refiere al proceso de aumentar el tamaño, alcance o impacto de un negocio. En el video, el escalado está relacionado con la introducción de elementos que permiten que un negocio crezca más allá de las limitaciones de tiempo y esfuerzo personales, como la venta de productos o servicios que se pueden vender a una audiencia más amplia sin la necesidad de interacción directa.

💡Leverage

El 'Leverage', o palanca en español, es un concepto clave en el video y se refiere a la habilidad de hacer que el trabajo, el tiempo y los recursos tengan un impacto más grande que su valor base. Es una herramienta para construir riqueza al maximizar el potencial de los recursos disponibles, y se menciona en el contexto de cómo el escalado y la venta de productos pueden ser potenciados mediante el uso de herramientas y sistemas que amplifican los esfuerzos.

💡Validación

La 'Validación' es el proceso de confirmar la viabilidad o efectividad de algo, y en el video, se refiere específicamente a la verificación de que un negocio o modelo de ingresos es factible y tiene demanda. Se menciona en el contexto de la importancia de validar las ideas y conceptos a medida que se escalan las laderas de la creación de riqueza, y cómo la falta de validación puede llevar a errores o fracasos en la construcción de un negocio.

💡Ahorro

El 'Ahorro' es mencionado en el video como una práctica fundamental para el crecimiento de la riqueza y la estabilidad financiera. Se refiere a la acción de guardar dinero para futuras necesidades o inversiones, y es una práctica recomendada para abordar los desafíos financieros que pueden surgir al escalar un negocio o al hacer la transición entre las diferentes laderas de la creación de riqueza.

💡Inversión

La 'Inversión' se refiere a la utilización de recursos, generalmente financieros, en algo con el objetivo de obtener un retorno o beneficio a futuro. En el video, la inversión se presenta como una forma de reinvertir los ingresos y el tiempo para el crecimiento sostenible del negocio, y como un medio para adquirir habilidades y herramientas que pueden mejorar la operatividad y el éxito de un emprendimiento.

💡Pasión

La 'Pasión' es un término que se utiliza para describir el entusiasmo y la emoción que una persona siente por algo que le importa profundamente. En el video, la pasión está relacionada con la motivación y la dedicación que se necesitan para perseguir metas empresariales y personales, y se menciona en el contexto de la importancia de hacer cosas que te apasionan y que te den energía para alcanzar tus objetivos.

💡Audience

El 'Audience', o audiencia, se refiere a un grupo de personas que sigue y se interesa en el contenido o mensaje de una persona o empresa. En el video, se discute cómo construir una audiencia es fundamental para el éxito a largo plazo en los negocios, ya que permite la validación de ideas, la construcción de relaciones y el crecimiento de la influencia en un mercado específico.

💡Innovación

La 'Innovación' es el proceso de crear algo nuevo o mejorar lo existente. En el video, la innovación se presenta como una forma de diferenciarse en el mercado y agregar valor a los productos o servicios, lo que puede ser crucial para el éxito a largo plazo de un negocio y para la construcción de una marca o reputación en el sector.

💡Estrategia

La 'Estrategia' se refiere a un plan o conjunto de acciones diseñadas para alcanzar un objetivo específico. En el video, la estrategia es clave para la construcción de riqueza y el crecimiento empresarial, ya que implica tomar decisiones informadas y planificar el desarrollo de un negocio a lo largo del tiempo, adaptándose a las condiciones del mercado y las necesidades de los clientes.

💡Fortaleza financiera

La 'Fortaleza financiera' hace referencia a la estabilidad y solidez económica de una persona o empresa. En el video, se discute cómo la fortaleza financiera es un resultado de la acumulación de riqueza a través de la inversión, la gestión efectiva de los recursos y la toma de decisiones financieras sabias, lo que permite enfrentar desafíos y aprovechar oportunidades en el ámbito empresarial.

Highlights

Nathan Berry's blog post 'The Ladders of Wealth Creation' offers a step-by-step roadmap for building wealth through businesses or side hustles.

The framework consists of four ladders: Time for Money, Own Service Business, Productized Services, and Selling Products.

Making money is a skill that can be developed through deliberate practice and learning thousands of small skills.

Ladder one, Time for Money, involves trading hours for dollars, starting with basic jobs and progressing to higher salary positions.

Skills like consistency, reliability, and growing expertise in a field are essential for moving up the wealth creation ladders.

Ladder two, Own Service Business, is about starting your own business, such as a freelance or lawn mowing company.

Ladder three, Productized Services, involves selling services in a package or subscription model, reducing the need for one-to-one interaction.

Ladder four, Selling Products, allows for true leverage where products can be sold and delivered without the creator's constant involvement.

Reinvesting time and money is crucial for acquiring new skills and tools necessary for moving up the ladders.

Skipping steps in the wealth creation process can lead to missing validation and learning opportunities.

Applying existing skills in new ways can help build wealth, such as using construction skills to remodel properties for rental income.

The difference between working for a better wage and truly building wealth lies in the equity and long-term value created.

Using an earlier rung of the ladder to fund the next one is a smart strategy to protect finances when transitioning between business stages.

Building an audience makes each step of the wealth creation ladder easier by providing a support base and attention for your offerings.

Wealth creation takes longer than expected, but the results can be incredible, as seen in Nathan's journey with ConvertKit.

Nathan Berry's personal experience with ConvertKit demonstrates the power of perseverance and the long-term growth of a business.

Wealth, to Nathan, means having a positive impact on everyone around you and ensuring they are taken care of.

Transcripts

so Nathan welcome to the personal

finance podcast thanks for having me on

so we are so excited to have you here

because you wrote this blog post called

the ladders of wealth creation that is

something that I read years ago and it

absolutely was a light bulb moment for

me especially for people who truly want

to build wealth through businesses or

maybe they even just want to start a

side hustle I think this is such a cool

way and it's such a great framework to

actually think through this process

um so it is a step-by-step roadmap to

Building Wealth and it is one of the

coolest things that I have read in a

while so there are four ladders of

wealth creation that you describe in the

post can you kind of explain these four

ladders

um and what they are yeah so I was

looking for a way to

I guess break down all all these

patterns that we're seeing in the world

and they're things that I knew to be

true and I I wanted a way to represent

it systematically and so

I wrote it down in four letters

[Music]

um

basically As you move through in your

entrepreneurial Journey the first one is

time for money uh second is your own

service business third is productized

services and fourth is selling products

and it's a you know it's a giant

framework trying to fit in all kinds of

things so there's something it works

well for another you know other things

not not quite as well for

um but the biggest idea behind it is

that making money is a skill which is

something that I first heard from uh

Jason fried maybe back in like 2009 I

don't know a long time ago and he's like

look making money is a skill like

playing the drums or something else you

wouldn't expect to like sit down on a

piano and be able to play this amazing

like piano solo without like deliberate

practice of building up these like

thousand little skills and

um

so I was thinking about that and it's

basically like making money is the same

thing where it's a combination of a

thousand little skills and so this is

trying to map it out of how how do you

do you best develop those skills over

time and then how do you introduce

leverage right of Leverage is this thing

that

is both wonderful and horrible you know

I guess it it is in itself neutral and

just magnifies

um

things in other ways and and uh it can

be incredible for Building Wealth and so

the whole post is just trying to

navigate those Concepts and I love that

part about it because it actually breaks

it down into these simple steps and what

we talk about this podcast all the time

Nathan is that it is a skill to build

wealth and it is skills that you can

acquire and once you acquire all these

skills put them together that is where

you can really start to accelerate that

path and like you said once you

introduce leverage then it really gets

even faster so that is one of the

coolest things about this post that you

introduced as well so on ladder one it's

some of the basic skills that we have to

master is on ladder one and it's one of

the the earliest things that most people

do and most people enter latter one they

don't even know that they're there so

can you walk us through

um what ladder one is and some of the

basic skills that you have to have when

you when you get on ladder one yeah so

latter one is time for money and you can

think about this uh in the simplest way

of you know hey I will mow your lawn for

20 an hour you know

um or like those first jobs that you

might have in high school or you know

any any hourly job working for a company

and then it could go up right a salary

job working for a company my last job

before I worked for myself forever I was

working as a designer for 63 000 a year

at a software company you know and that

was like that is trading time for money

uh some of the skills that you need

um early on right showing up

consistently being reliable uh and then

as you move up that ladder and there's a

huge income range in that ladder right I

could go from 15 an hour to you know

people with salary positions that are

500 000 a year potentially

um you know it's it's really growing in

your area of work whether it's as a

software designer or a landscaper or

whatever else right as you acquire more

skills you become more more valuable

through the company and you tend to get

paid more or you jump and switch to

another company that will pay you more

exactly that is the cool thing too like

when I worked in the corporate world one

of the biggest things that I remember

doing was I would look for people above

me in the corporate world and say what

skills do they have and then I would go

try to acquire all those skills you're

kind of building up your Baseline of

skill set when you're doing this but it

could be anything along the lines of

even your basic

um High School job like you said I

remember I think I read that yours was

Wendy's in that post yes um where you

were working at Wendy's very early on

and then look where you've come now

today which is absolutely amazing so

it's one of those things where all of us

have those entry level jobs but it could

be any type of range there

um which is you know where we all learn

where we all grow some of these basic

skills so now that you've mastered the

basic skills of ladder one then you can

jump to ladder two where this is your

own service based business and I think

this is where a lot of people can really

start to build out a side hustle even

when they're still on ladder one they

can have this service based business and

then maybe transition into it full time

because so can you walk us through a

service based business and some examples

of this ladder as well yeah so that

could be as simple you know using my own

examples it's like hey I'll design this

website for you for fifty dollars an

hour you know like we're just we're

starting out in that that that's uh

pretty basic uh it could be instead of

working for the lawn mowing company I

have my own lawn mowing company

um anything in there now in this there's

a whole bunch of skills that you have to

learn

and if you try to jump into this without

mastering some of the skills previously

right imagine starting your own service

based business but you're terrible at

showing up consistently you don't have

these basic skills that's why when

people

uh who are not reliable or like oh I

don't like working for someone else I'm

going to start I'm gonna be a freelancer

instead it's like you're gonna find that

it's even harder without accountability

from a job you know so that's why it's

often best to start with is basic you

know start on ladder one learn these

skills move the latter two of the

service business

you gotta you imagine there are some of

these things like

you know how do you find clients how do

you

um hire employees as you go further on

how do you establish an online presence

I remember

when I filed for my first LLC it's like

oh man how how do you even do that what

and now like someone asked me how like

that same question on like a month ago

and I was like it is the easiest thing

there's a form you fill out on the

website you you submit it you pay your

100 bucks or whatever like but if you've

never done that before it feels like

this big obstacle uh or like getting an

EIN someone's like what what even is

that and you're like oh well you fill

out a form with the IRS or you call them

and they'll give it to you and whatever

you know these things are that seem hard

uh then become

really really easy and there's some

other really important

um skills that you have to build like

following up with customers

that is a no one is like inherent with

the skill of oh if I want something done

I will will follow up consistently

it's like no you gotta learn that and so

you want to learn it when the stakes are

low

um because if you're trying to learn

these things as we'll get into it with

products or all that then oh man it's

gonna be rough and I could not agree

more it's one of those things where it's

kind of like developing a muscle the

same thing with Fitness where it's just

something where you do it over and over

again and once you get comfortable with

it then it just becomes very easy you

can even think of it as if you started

your first job you know when you start

that job for the first six months maybe

you're thinking through everything seems

a little bit difficult you're trying to

figure out the systems of that company

and then later on it just becomes easy

it becomes second nature after you've

been there for a couple years well these

are the same things but some of these

skills is that the more that you do them

the better you'll get at them and but

you need to have these skills especially

as you get deeper into some of these

businesses and later on in some of these

ladders as well so the third one is uh

product product size services so this is

one um that I've seen a number of people

skip so you go into having a service

based business and a lot of people try

to jump to ladder four which we talked

about was

um selling a product so this could lead

to disappointment in business like

you're saying unless you develop some of

those skills so what is

um can you explain some examples of

ladder three and how people can actually

go about doing that yeah so productized

services are really where you're trying

to bridge this gap between

peer services and it might be selling by

the project or something like that right

so I've gone from all I'll do logo

design for you for 100 an hour or two

for twenty five hundred dollars I will

do a brand design package for you

right a lot of that happens in the

services like a more sophisticated

version of a Services business

that's pretty normal productized

services

is where you're trying to make it so

that the sale can happen without you

and as much of the Fulfillment can

happen in a systematic way it might

still involve you a lot

so a difference would be so I will edit

your Vlog you know you give me the Vlog

footage I will edit it for you for fifty

dollars an hour that's one thing

another version is you sign up for a

thousand dollars a month you have access

to this service where you drop into the

footage and we'll turn it into four

Vlogs every month so one a week like

clockwork so a couple things in this

it's a recurring purchase

someone's buying an outcome more than

they're hiring

um an individual

uh the payments are processed usually

not by like sending an invoice and then

getting paid or this back and forth

um it's you know processed through

stripe or converted Commerce there's you

know an automated tool it's starting to

seem a lot more like a product

and then the other one that's really

important is the sale is usually made

without a one-to-one touch if I'm

running a web design business and I'm

trying to convince you to become a

client we're going to sit down we're

going to talk on Zoom I'm going to you

know write a proposal we're going to

talk through this a bunch it's a

high-touch sales process

so the product I service we want to do

it where it turns into a low touch sales

process so it might be I do a lot of

Consulting on search engine optimization

well that's like a bespoke thing what

does it cost I don't know you know I

gotta know your project instead it could

be I will do for a thousand dollars I

will do an SEO audit for your site and

you're like oh sweet I've been reading

your blog you seem good at this bye and

you made a purchase without me having to

sell you individually because instead I

sold you through copywriting sales page

design which are hard skills to be clear

like you got to learn all of those

um and so in that now we're starting to

introduce Leverage

right because time and money as removing

these ladders time and money are

starting to drift apart they're not

like ladder one they are locked up

together ladder two it can kind of be

like I'm charging for

uh you know maybe first is hourly but

then I might be charging for a project

ten thousand dollar website and

you know if I if it takes me forever

I might lose some money or I might like

make less but if I get it done really

fast I might make a crazy hourly rate

like 400 an hour or something

um

and so really we're just providing

opportunity for leverage of things

including part both in sales process and

in the Fulfillment of the product and

that's what I love about it is once the

leverage comes into play and you stop

trading that time for money and once you

start doing this if you've never felt

this feeling before anybody listening it

is something where you're like I cannot

believe for so long I was trading time

for money because once you start to do

this and and systematize it all is

absolutely amazing so

um I love that ladder as well and I

think it's one where you really do learn

a lot of skills in between there and

when people skip it they really miss out

on some of those skills and maybe the

fourth ladder becomes much more

difficult if they skip that one because

you have to at least understand those

skills before you go to the next one so

the fourth ladder is to sell a product

and this is kind of the level where

convertkit is now

um and it's one where a lot of people

want to get to but they try to

accelerate their path there so this is

where it's really possible to scale

obviously and create some passive income

as well so can you explain this ladder

in some products that maybe you'd be

able to sell yeah so this ladder is

selling products so now we have true

Leverage both in the sale of the product

right it's purchased without a

one-to-one touch and the delivery

and so now we can have full leverage

convertkit Works basically the same

whether it has one customer or a

thousand customers or five thousand

customers

um

like if you take an ebook for example

this is a a great example it's a huge

amount of work to write an ebook

and let's say I spend

um

six months writing that ebook

that effort is the same

whether I sell one copy and make twenty

dollars or a thousand copies and make

twenty thousand dollars

and so this is the curse and benefit of

Leverage right and the reason that I

think

people jump too soon to selling products

is the bar the bar for what you create

is much higher

right we gotta write a full book

whereas if I did a Consulting package on

that topic

I can learn how to sell it how to

package it all of that it has a

productized service without doing all of

this work to

you know spend 500 hours or whatever

writing the book and so now what we've

got is

we're avoiding a lot of risk because I

think what most people do is they say I

want to sell a product and so I need to

then first make it and to be like okay

it's a book I'm going to spend all of

this time writing and creating this

thing and then they go to market with it

and no one buys it because they don't

actually know all of the skills of

packaging positioning pricing driving

traffic uh how how and where to sell it

and everything else so there's tons of

things in the product ladder like it

takes you know I have digital products

that's kind of the easiest

and then you can get into like products

sold in an existing ecosystem so this

could range from like iOS apps or

WordPress uh plug-in to even like

um

you know an Airbnb house

right you're not you don't have to

generate demand uh for yourself you're

making something you're packaging it up

and you're putting it inside of an

existing ecosystem so that's a bit

easier

I've got physical products e-commerce

um is is challenging

um

uh you can do subscription software

especially if you package it with

consulting services that can help you

get you in the door sooner and then SAS

is very challenging I would not start

there and then ultimately like the top

of the ladder

uh where you have both the highest

difficulty and the absolute highest

wealth creation ability is in things

like marketplaces and social networks so

if you look at the companies that have

like the highest revenue per employee

Facebook Amazon

you know Apple uh right these companies

very very hard to do

and part of what I'm trying to explain

in this is why when someone says like

hey I'm gonna make the next Uber for

whatever

it's like just so you know you have none

of the skills necessary and you're

saying Hey I want to select the very

hardest thing and start there

and like oh but the earning potential of

this works is so high and it's like you

are absolutely right if this works maybe

not the Uber for whatever idea right but

if they're like Marketplace idea or

social network if it takes off you know

if you build the next tick tock sure to

potentially build something worth 50

billion dollars 100 billion dollars or

more is incredible

but the likelihood of success because so

many things have to go right and so many

skills have to be learned

um is is very low exactly it's taking us

at phases and kind of getting those

skills acquiring those skills then you

can kind of level up into some of these

products even like you said just a

digital product which is the basic level

on there if you don't understand if

there's a want or need for this if you

don't understand how to sell it or put

it all together or have the skills to

Market it with something like convertkit

or something like that then you are

really going to struggle and a lot of

people I've seen put out courses or they

put out ebooks like that they've spent

so much time creating it without kind of

figuring out how to actually sell this

stuff and then it absolutely flops so

it's one of those things where just the

basic levels building up those skills is

absolutely imperative so I love how you

phase these out I love how you think

through this and the framework so I

encourage everybody we'll link it up

down in the show notes below so you can

check it out but we want to go to kind

of the second level on this because you

have eight principles to grow your

wealth and income over time and it kind

of tie in hand in hand here

um on how these how these go through the

process and the first one is extra time

and money need to be reinvested so what

are some of the best ways you have found

to reinvest money and time

yeah it depends on what what you're

trying to do

um one example

um

you know there's some of these these

skills that we want to learn that that

require software or tools you know if

you want to become a video editor and

you're using like that Chromebook that

you had from high school like it's not

going to cut it you know and so as

you're

whatever job you have as you're making

money from it you you better be setting

that aside to uh to get like a MacBook

Pro or something like that right

um

you get that side of things really

anytime you have this money

um I think it's one of the later

principles but

it can be time consuming or expensive to

jump between ladders and so the more you

save and reinvest money

um the more

you can

um

the more cushion and flexibility you

give yourself to jump between ladders

what a lot of people do is they jump you

know from ladder one to two or two to

three

and they do it with no cushion or buffer

and it fails

and so because they're like oh I did

this and so it's gonna be easy to get to

the next ladder or they try to skip

multiple ladders at a time which to be

clear it can be done it's just really

hard and will take a long time and so if

you're in this position of spending

everything that you make it's going to

be really really hard to move up the

ladders whereas if you're in a position

where you're constantly saving you're

like hey I need to take this course to

learn this next skill I'm going to hire

this coach I'm going to invest in the

software you know whatever else or just

build up a savings account when I went

from a full-time job to freelancing from

ladder one to ladder two

uh I'm I had a huge overlap between them

I think that's the later principle too

but not only did I have an overlap there

was doing both at the same time but I

used the capital from uh my very first

products

um as I was going freelancing and all

that you know I had twenty thousand

dollars saved up and so I'm like I've

got I think at the time that was like

five months of living expenses for me

and so it really de-risked moving

between ladders exactly it's amazing how

those principles kind of fall into

personal finance as well as long as you

have something it's the same thing like

per if you have an emergency fund or

something along those lines it's having

that in place but the same thing goes

for business and I actually even do this

like on our P LS and stuff for some of

our businesses I have something called

growth where we just actually put cash

towards that

um so that we can move on to the next

steps that we need to move towards and

have that cash reserves there so it's

really cool to have those buffers

because it reduces obviously the stress

and anxiety and the pressure but in

addition it just helps you get to that

next level and then reinvesting that

money I remember like even when early on

in some of my businesses when I was

really Frugal because when I started off

I was I was extremely Frugal and still

am but

um even early on when I wouldn't

reinvest some of the cash I noticed some

some areas would struggle and then once

I started to reinvest some of that money

then you would start to see that growth

as well so it's definitely worth it to

be able to start to put some of that

cash to work now the second one we

already talked about a little bit here

but

um it's talking about that you can skip

ahead but you still have to learn the

lessons from each step so we talked

through some of that as well but how

does the Journey get more difficult if

you skip ahead and how do a lot of

people fail when they skip ahead

yeah

you're missing signs of validation

we like to learn

um

let's think about different skills right

there are some skills that give you

feedback really early on right they're

easy they're fun to learn I've played

pickleball a tiny bit and I think the

reason that it's so wildly popular

is it makes you it's a very approachable

game to play because the ball is moving

slowly it makes you feel like you're

better at it than you are

versus maybe if you played volleyball

for the very first time and like you

can't even make a basic pass or receive

a ball right it's harder or or like

tennis is much harder right you get

these things that are

uh if you're trying to skip ahead it's a

lot harder and it's gonna be frustrating

and you're not gonna see results so in

the same way if I'm

trying to sell a product and I don't yet

know how to make a landing page I'm

trying to cram a bunch of learning into

one step

and I'm not getting the validation and

feedback that oh this is going well

whereas I could learn how to make a

landing page to sell my service business

or my productized service and someone

buys that quickly and you know I didn't

have to spend 500 hours making a product

to learn that

so just as humans we want to feel

progress and momentum and so if you're

doing this in smaller steps you're going

to feel that as you go and if you choose

to skip steps which is totally fair I've

skipped plenty of steps I have examples

in the article of people who have been

very uh successful skipping steps

if you choose to do that just know that

you're compressing that learning

into a single project and it might make

the project take a lot longer until you

see success for sure and I think that's

one of the things early on in business

as well where I was trying to learn how

to trying to accelerate my path and try

to move really fast and what I realized

was if I just went a little bit slower

on some of these steps then I could

actually accelerate my path later on

um by just going slower learning some of

those skills and the third one kind of

ties into those skills which because you

can apply your existing skills

um in a new way to build wealth and I

love your example you have the friend

who was in construction and they they

bought a house with a an additional unit

as well and a lot of people who listen

to this podcast are Real Estate

Investors so they're gonna love this and

with that additional unit you know

they're in construction so they were

able to remodel that unit and then be

able to rent it out for an additional

eighteen hundred dollars a month or

whatever it was of cash flow

um and that was just one great example

of how you can use your skills to create

more cash flow within your life are

there any other examples that you can

think of or any anybody that you've seen

that has done something like this where

they've used their skills and acquired

new ways to build wealth yeah I mean I

think you see it with a lot of service

providers who then move into the course

business or like teaching you know so

I'm a designer I've learned figma really

well and then on the side I start

teaching people how to design in figma

um right or uh maybe I'm a video creator

and I've got my perfect Zoom set up

right

for my my studio and all that people are

like wow that's really good how do you

do that it's the same skill to know how

to set up a studio but then you apply it

in a new way of like saying hey I will

do it for you

right that's one thing now we're into a

service business

you know yeah pay me 100 bucks an hour I

will set up your studio for you uh for a

thousand dollars it could be a

productized service and you're just like

hit buy and I'm gonna you know tell you

exactly what to do or maybe the product

version of that there's two versions

one product version could be

um a course

you know so you're not even getting any

of my time I've done it once and now you

know everyone can take it to get the

studio how does the the course of how to

set up the perfect Studio

um or you know it could be something

where you click buy and like you get a

box in the mail with all of the lights

cameras everything and the course and

all of that right

um and so like knowing how to set up

a good webcam Zoom setup is a skill and

then you can apply it in a lot of

different ways I like to build wealth my

favorite example is still the you know

the construction skill

um like reapplied to being something

that generates like persistent cash flow

absolutely and I think

um even on that studio example for the

zoom calls there's one Creator I'm

thinking of that has like a similar

product to that where they they do that

and they create courses I think it's

called like dream Studio Tour or

something like that yep

um and they they create courses on how

to do that it looks really cool they

have like one of the best landing pages

I've seen in a long time

um and then when they go through that

process they can also do something where

they offer Consulting as well and he has

a team that does it so he doesn't even

have to to do it fully but he has a team

that does that that will look at your

Zoom setup for like three thousand bucks

or the course is 500 bucks so there's

different levels to it as well which I

absolutely love that so he's using

skills in different ways to create

additional income

um and real estate is probably the

easiest way like you said to kind of go

through that process and understand that

as well so

um and then number four is a cool one as

well because there's a difference

between working for a better wage and

truly Building Wealth so what is the

difference between the two

yeah it's what do you

the difference is what do you end up

with what do you have equity in

afterwards and so the example that I use

is again my friend Patrick who is doing

construction

we built that he built the studio

um he helped me build the tiny house

office that I'm in right now I'd call

him up whenever I get stuck on something

like hey how do you do the roof overhang

on this and he's like oh come over and

show you you know and and so he built

another tiny house and he's like okay

what if we what if we made a business

building tiny houses and you get that

it's kind of even a productized surface

you could say like hey for 50 Grand

here's what you get and

um

all of that and what was interesting is

in that case what you get at the end is

cash

you really just traded time for cash

and so it's like what do you do with

that cash afterwards

versus the Airbnb example that he had

where before where he has something that

he owns he's building equity in and it's

giving him cash flow ongoing

so if we think of different examples

here if I'm an

um I'm a content creator I've got my

newsletter with 10 000 subscribers on it

all of that I can I can be an affiliate

for other products

and that's giving me cash flow that's

fantastic

super low bar uh to enter

but I'm not building equity in something

else if we take this to the extreme

example

uh and go to Ryan Reynolds right Ryan uh

shows up her movie

gets paid great cash to do it you know

or or better yet right he's a um he gets

paid to do a commercial somebody and

they're like hey we'll pay you two

million dollars you just gotta show up

for this one day film this commercial

and here's your two million bucks

step function and wealth and and he's

probably going to invest that in um the

stock market or whatever else

right but then he has this realization

where he's like wait a second

I think I'm providing more value through

this ad than the two million dollars

you're paying me

like more value to the company and so he

goes what if I own the company

and so then he goes about and I have

another blog post on this called uh the

billion dollar creator

but

um he realizes the best way to build

wealth not just cash but wealth is for

him to buy companies he buys Aviation

gin and mint mobile and to be the

spokesperson from them and he's like

okay same thing showing up to shoot a

commercial no one's paying me anything

upfront because it's my company

but then he's getting this crazy

increase in value and I think he sold

Aviation gin uh for I don't remember

what it was five or six hundred million

or something crazy like that

um and I don't think he even sold all of

it I think it was still just a portion

for it

um but the important thing is that he

was making sure that his time his cash

all of that went into something that

could build long-term wealth

um rather than just cash there's nothing

wrong with just cash so long as you then

take it and use it to buy like Shopify

stock or S P 500 you know like

um it's got to go into something that

has real assets and value exactly that

is one of my favorite stories as well in

business and if you look at some of the

best athletes some of the best

um people who are in that industry some

of the best people in music they all

want to acquire ownership of some of

this stuff and uh mint mobile is

actually one of the sponsors of this

podcast as well so

um

exactly it's perfect it's perfect drop

the ad right now but uh that's one of

the uh the perfect spots for that too

because I think it's one of those things

that

um you know it's one of my favorite

things to study is when we're actually

working on an episode where we're going

to go through some of those examples and

that is one of them that's on there so I

think that is one of the coolest

examples as well because he took that

equity and how much more net worth he

had instead of just taking the cash on

that side so I think it's really really

cool one quick thing on that to my

knowledge there is not a single

billionaire in music

who made their money who became a

billionaire through music

but there are a lot of billionaire

musicians

and they all you know uh I don't know if

they're quiet all there right but

Rihanna

um Jay-Z uh Dr Dre you know like as you

get into these people and they all use

the attention from their music and a lot

of cash right the music made cat like it

takes money to move up these ladders and

then they all did something like

launched another product

um same way Kylie Jenner you know is is

uh I think one of if not the wealthiest

of her siblings right and all of that

and it's because she you know it's not

like hey let me make money from my

um endorsement deals or sponsored

Instagram posts or whatever she's like

no no I'm gonna build a billion dollar

Cosmetics company and I'll make my money

through that exactly it's incredible

there's even you know the athlete

examples of like Michael Jordan for

example he's one of the the first ones

to actually do that you can even look at

people like LeBron James or Floyd

Mayweather all these guys wanted like

ownership pieces

um and it's one of the most incredible

incredible ways to study these types of

people I think even there's there's a

bunch of examples but I think um there's

a select few even on the athletes side I

think there's like five or six of them

that are billionaires now

um and all of them the reasons why is

because they took equity in some of

these businesses which I think is one of

the the coolest things and it's one of

my favorite things to watch through as

well so

one of my favorite examples I think you

have the perfect example for the next

one is using an earlier rung of the

ladder to fund the next one so why is it

poor why is it important to do this in

order to protect your finances as an

entrepreneur

jumping between ladders can we'll

combine this one and the next one uh

because it can often mean that the next

one is that maybe between ladders can

you know decrease in income like it

often means that like the number of

people that I know who maybe had a job

making a hundred thousand dollars a year

in their salary and then they're they're

like hey I'm gonna do this freelancer

I'm gonna start an agency

and maybe they get a bunch of contracts

so they're bringing in more Revenue but

then they need to hire employees and

everything else so they're actually

taking home less and that's pretty

normal you know when I think about

um uh in my own career going from a

salaried position to

um

freelancing that was probably an even

Financial move and then I started

selling like Built My audience and sold

digital products and all that got up to

about 250 000 a year uh from digital

products that I was making and you know

it's just wildly more than my salary

and then I was like okay now I'm gonna

move I'm already on the products ladder

but removed from ebooks and digital

products up to SAS you know jumped like

five rungs at once or something

um and it took me I think five years

to get back to the same level of income

of like now convertkit was making

millions of dollars a year but my

personal take home

I think was five years until it like

again exceeded that 250 000 a year

and so this is why

um and to be clear convertk has worked

out very well like my my net worth and

all of that has gone Way Beyond it but

there's this Valley that you don't

expect and you can actually see it in if

I were to show you a graph of my

retirement accounts in wealthfront you

would see it like climb and then take

this steady decline as I like cash out

to like fun lifestyle as I did uh you

know lifestyle makes it sound inflated

fund a basic mortgage and you know

groceries

uh and then like like it takes off and

climbs again as uh and being able to

invest a lot and so really

you know like uh actually the example

of saving up money you know what I did I

I tried to overlap two steps when I went

free to a freelancer you know I was

taking freelance work on the side and

making sure I had this going uh my

friend Patrick who I reference you know

he had to have building materials it is

not cheap to build out a studio to rent

on Airbnb he did so much himself and he

like did it very very cost efficiently

and it was still like 10 or 15 000 you

know out of pocket for this little

studio and so he picked up extra shifts

as a bartender and did all of that so

that he can get the money uh to fund uh

this next rung and so people who are

like oh I want to

um

I want to move up the ladder but I can't

afford it you know or I can't do that or

they say something like oh it takes

money to make money and you can debate

how much that's true or not but

um it's like yeah that's why you have to

live below your means and you have to

build up this cushion so that you can

move between liners otherwise you're

going to be stuck somewhere that you

don't want to be and not have the

ability to uh make a jump

absolutely and I'm sure during that time

frame where you were taking the

reduction Pace sometimes it's difficult

for people to go through that and that's

where

um a lot of people for entrepreneurship

is kind of surprising when they have to

go through that process in terms of

taking that reduction pay for those five

years even though convertkit was doing

very well and now convertkit is

obviously doing amazing and Nathan's

being modest that it that it's doing

well it's worth hundreds of millions of

dollars now so it's one of those things

that's absolutely amazing and it's one

of the coolest stores it's what we use

for our email list as well so I

absolutely love it

um now the next one is is one that is

very cool and I'm seeing a lot more

people talking about this openly now as

well but each step gets easier with an

audience so you see people talking about

um attention and how important attention

is especially when you're trying to

build a business and you can see all

these people who are are big in business

starting podcasts or they're starting

all these different things YouTube

channels

um all across the board or newsletters

as well and I'm seeing that really take

off as of late so what are some ways

people can build an audience um in your

opinion what are some of the best ways

that people can build an audience right

now yeah I think the in the most basic

sense

um you should do interesting things and

talk about it or maybe phrase

differently you should go on an

interesting Journey

so if you're saying I am

working my salary position right now and

we can make up whatever you know

whatever job uh it is and I'm going to

get into investing real estate

and my goal is that 10 years from now I

have

I'm just totally making things up but 10

single-family homes that I own and my

full-time income is coming from that

right

that's kind of an interesting story like

how are you going to do that and so you

clearly articulate your goal and then

you blog about what you're learning

along the way

my example of this is when I started to

convertkit I said hey I'm going to build

a Sasa application

I'm going to do it in six months and I'm

going to get to five thousand dollars a

month in monthly return Revenue yeah oh

and it's going to be customer funded and

I I live blog that and people were like

I don't know they could do it but sure

I'll subscribe and see if people are

like oh this is amazing what are you

learning so I have blog posts about how

I hired a developer how I chose the name

how I you know when it's not written

from the place of like I'm the expert

who's done all of this before like let

me tell you I have you know I've come

down from my Ivory Tower and I'm letting

you know the best way to do this

instead it's like here's what I did last

week here's the progress that I made and

people love following a journey

and then I also think that

you know like when I was learning

software development and often read

articles written by experts that

it just felt like there was something

missing

and I realized what it was is it had

maybe been five years or more since

they'd been a beginner or 10 years since

they've been a beginner like me

and so they're like oh just do this in

the same way that right if I might start

a business just like uh you know file

for an LLC grab an EIN blah blah blah

blah and you're like hold on

I totally stuck on grabbing Ein you know

um

but someone who just went through it is

going to have to be like oh here is how

you do the steps I just went through

this I got stuck on this part so you

might too

and so I think if you take that

um if you if you have a specific Journey

you like you know you're going you share

that story uh in a way lets people

follow along

um

and then take that beginner mindset and

there's two principles

um that uh I don't have them they used

to be posters on my wall uh they're not

in this office but they are teach

everything you know

so not like oh I'm only going to teach

the things that I'm an expert in

but like just teach whatever you learn

this week teach that

um and do it from the place of a

beginner intermediate whatever your

skill set is and then the other one is

work in public

like don't disappear for

months or years and work off on your own

instead like hey I made stuff today

what did I make teach it share it you

know put it on the internet here's what

the problem I ran into

it's interesting we love following

people's Journeys and then what happens

is you end up with this group of 50

people 100 people 10 000 people who are

following you and when you go like hey

I'm gonna move from writing ebooks to

building a SAS company people are like

oh sweet tell us about that that sounds

interesting you know and then you get

this like how do I say it like what if

you had

for whatever you're doing in life what

if you had like 500 people who are in

your corner cheering for you and me like

oh man like Andrew I can't wait for that

to succeed

like whatever you do and that sounds

ridiculous and too good to be true and

that is exactly what it means to like go

about business uh with an audience and I

think it's the biggest cheat code uh you

could ever have I could not agree more

and I think one of the coolest things

about it too is once you start to to

learn some things and you're starting to

build out some of these skills and you

start teaching these skills those skills

are going to be so much better because

you're doing it with a teaching mindset

so you're just gonna gonna acquire those

skills but when you teach it it's even

easier I even notice this like even when

I read a book for example I read books

with the assumption that I'm going to

have to teach it at some point

um and it's one of those things where I

just I regurgitate that information so

much more with that kind of mindset

because you really think deeply about it

and think through all the processes so

it's one of the coolest ways to be able

to do that as well it actually helps you

with in business and all of your skill

sets

um so I could not agree more with that

one and it was one of my favorite things

so

now the last one is it takes longer than

you think but the results can be

incredible and this is absolutely true

um and it's probably true within your

journey it took longer than you think to

get back to that 250 000 a year even

when you went through that process but

how is this true in your own Journey

um when you went throughout this process

of getting to convertkit and where it is

now yeah so I thought when I launched

convertkit I'd be at uh well I mean I

wrote in the blog post I thought I'd be

at 5 000 a month in recurring Revenue

within six months

instead I hit 2 000 a month and it's

like okay

you thought this trend you're a little

behind Pace like

sure we'll catch up give it time in

reality what happened is for the 18

months after that we basically bounced

around that number or and shrunk

and so at the two-year Mark after

starting convertkit we were at 2000 a

month uh sorry we're at like 1500 a

month in recurrent turns out churn on

recurring Revenue business is pretty

painful

and so if someone had told me that two

years

after starting

I'd get 1500 a month in Revenue I don't

think I would have done it

now around that time

I had a friend uh named Heaton Shaw who

really encouraged me to

he like either shut down convertkit and

do something else or like double down on

it and really give it everything that I

had and that's what I chose to do

um and that was in it was two years in

so January 2015.

and in that moment it's like okay I'm

gonna double down on it and you know it

took one month to go from 1500 to 2000

and then

um like three months later four months

later we're at five thousand a month in

Revenue I could start to take off and

then ten thousand if like

six months after doubling down over ten

thousand a month in Revenue a year after

doubling down over 100 000 a month in

Revenue

um you know two years after doubling

down we're 500 000 a month in Revenue

you know and today it's like two and a

half million a month in revenue and so

I think it's just this idea

we think that all this is gonna happen

faster

I think there's a I don't know who's a

quote for But like everyone

overestimates what they can do in a year

and underestimates what they can do in

five years or a decade or something like

that right

um and it's just so much the case and

one of my favorite stories in this is uh

I have in the article but

is my friend's a friend in high school

is grandma or his grandfather passed

away

um when his grandma was about 60 and

um

you know so his grandma's like you know

not sure what to do now with her time

and and they had a little bit of money

they had two small houses

um that were paid off because they lived

really conservatively and

uh and she's like well I like buying

real estate so let me buy another house

and fix it up and rent it out

and so she does that and then a couple

years later she buys another one and

then like a year later she buys I guess

now a fourth that maybe you know like

and it keeps going and she just gets in

this habit where like every bit of cash

flow she just keeps rolling It Forward

um and he gets the point that she's

buying like multiple houses a year

and uh when I met her she was 80. and so

she'd been doing this for 20 years and

she had well over 25 homes that she had

Acquired and she has this real estate

Empire

and this is before like uh you know it's

real estate Empires were now worth like

well when I met her with worth probably

like two and a half three million

dollars maybe more

um and then over the next 10 years that

like more than doubled because the Boise

area of real estate has just gotten

insane

um you know so what's interesting is at

no point it was she like I'm going to

acquire this massive real estate

portfolio she's like I'm gonna just keep

doing this and keep rolling It Forward I

mean it's like the the Idaho Grandma

version of Warren Buffett's snowball and

it's just like the most amazing thing

what I think what she passed on to

um

her kids and grandkids is worth like 10

million dollars worth of real estate wow

because of the ridiculous appreciation

and even if you ignore the appreciation

it got to the point where the cash flow

off of it was was ridiculous

that's absolutely amazing that's a great

example too of like it's never too late

to start and start to to start Building

Wealth along the process

um and and the Warren Buffett example is

one of our favorite ones because I think

he built the majority of his wealth

after the age of like 57 or 58 it's

something like 99 of his wealth which is

really cool

um so that that's an amazing story as

well and I think you know going along

that Journey you're right it's the first

year you may think you can get there

faster that you once you realize it's

hard to build the skills and say oh

these skills may take a little bit

longer for us to actually acquire and go

through this process then you kind of

realize yeah it's going to take a little

longer than I thought but then once you

get to that five-year mark it starts to

accelerate even more which is which is

some of the the coolest part as well so

um I want to shift to some of these

questions that we ask a lot of our

guests and we get really interesting

answers so I think

um I think you're the perfect person for

some of these questions as well so what

part of your work life work or life

makes you come alive oh

um I like so today actually we hit 10

million dollars uh that convertkit has

paid out through convert Market Commerce

to creators it was a fun Milestone we

actually like got to look and see like

who's the creator that had the 10 you

know not 10 millionth payment like who

processed the 10 millionth dollar uh and

there's actually this designer out of

New Zealand named Holly who uh

um sells design coaching services oh

perfect example

uh she has gone from time for money I've

just designed stuff to her own service

business providing design and then

through converted Commerce she's like

hey I will Coach you on leveling up your

design career for 350 you can book a

session which is a product I deserve us

um so what makes me come alive is like

seeing creators make money uh it's all

of these things are skills and habits

that you can learn and I love teaching

it and then I love providing the

software and Tech to make it easier and

then I love when like people do that to

create

like major changes in their life and

their family and everything else so yeah

and I love that it shows through the

work that you guys do it's like the

Creator Hub basically of all the the

features the tools that you have there

is one of the best ways to if you're a

Creator it's one of the best ways um to

grow your not only your email but

there's so many other features and

things that are there as well so the

second one is what is the best advice

about money that you have ever received

um

oh there's so many things like money is

basically my favorite topic ever

um it's pretty you know I like it a lot

when it beats out like design and

audience building of things I want to

talk about exactly I think that

you know this idea that making money is

a skill

sounds it sounds simple on the surface

but it changes

your entire mindset changes everything

and the reason is

I used to think that who had money

what you earned what you kept the wealth

that you built came down to like a few

choices who you knew you know I had an

uncle growing up who was a doctor right

I knew that he made more than our family

did right it's like oh that's because he

chose to be a doctor

uh random side note most of the

wealthiest people I know highest earning

uh are content creators and they make

way more than any of the doctors that

I've ever met it is wild to see that

because there's a lot I know they're all

it's crazy

yeah who would someone's like hey go to

school become a doctor you can make a

quarter million dollars a year maybe

specialize you make half a million

dollars a year and we're like go be a

content creator you can make a million

dollars a year it's like exactly five

years ago that's a ridiculous idea and

now it's like oh yeah now the math

checks out

it's the power of Leverage

um

so I think

if you really internalize making money

and Building Wealth or skills

um or the combination of many thousands

of skills then you start start thinking

about it of like okay

what do I have control over what do I

need to learn how do I need to apply

this rather than this idea of

um

even like wealth as a zero-sum

game you hear a lot of people I I don't

think someone listening to this podcast

is going to come from this mindset but

if you pay attention to the news at all

people are like really having this idea

that oh if Warren Buffett makes another

billion dollars that means that someone

else doesn't have that building right he

took that from someone else and you're

like it's not a zero-sum game that's not

at all how it works and when when you

start thinking about things in terms of

skills

then it's like oh this is within my

control yes luck is a factor luck is

always the factor did you you know were

you born uh in the United States in the

year 2000 or

you know were you born in Europe in 1915

like you're gonna have very different

different experiences based on that so

luck is always a factor I think it's

also uh maybe a Warren Buffett quote

where he talks about winning the ovarian

Lottery of like where you were born

um

but you just if you internalize that

that is a skill then

um you're really going to take ownership

of the outcomes and decide how what

skills do you want to learn how do you

want to apply that and then what can you

turn it into I absolutely love that and

I think it really does go deep like you

said there's so many different levels to

to the skills that you can have to build

wealth and once you start to acquire

some of those skills you're really going

to see a major difference as time goes

on I remember just starting off like my

entry level job and thinking the same

thing like I should have went to school

be a doctor or something along those

lines but then once you start to acquire

these skills it really starts to

accelerate

um and you can really see that happen so

my the last one is my very favorite one

and it's one that we get a different

answer every single time so

um it's really interesting to to see how

people kind of think about this but what

does wealth mean to you

okay so it's a it's yeah it's a broad

term that can go a lot of different

directions

um man the first thing that comes to

mind is is like impact

um I want everyone

I

like everyone in my family everyone I

know

um

uh everyone who reads my work uh all of

that to like be better off in some way

uh because like we cross paths

and so I think about like how can I do

that whether it's

uh the wealth that we're building in

convertkit

um that you know how do I help everyone

who works for uh for convert to become

financially independent how do we build

something that's wildly valuable

um how do I spend my time on things that

I want to

I'm not so much of of like oh wealth is

being able to spend my time on anything

and so you know I achieved a certain

amount of of income and now I'm just

going to go uh do woodworking or

something which I love but you know

um

all that

wealth to me is

it's like the compounding and leverage

over time I think the most ridiculous

example to me

is

last year we we did a small secondary

sale for convertkit to help team members

sell shares and equity and all of that I

sold one percent of the company or one

and a quarter percent of the company for

two and a half million

uh and retired my parents and my wife's

parents with that money and it was just

wild to be able to sell one percent of

like to create something so valuable

that one percent of it

is like

enough to push

actually six people because my parents

are divorced to remarried so six people

into retirement you know and uh

we talked a lot my wife and I talked a

lot about it because we're like oh

should we sell some Equity we don't need

the cash you know

it's not gonna make a difference uh for

us we don't live an extravagant life I

mean I live on a farm in Boise Idaho

right like you know my lifestyle

expenses are not not that High

um

but then what we came to is realize like

time is a big difference

right more an extra two million dollars

today isn't really going to make a huge

difference for us we don't need that

but for our parents who are you know

still three four five years away from

retirement or it's a bit of an unstable

retirement they're not quite sure

like that when they're 62 64 years old

like that time that money now makes a

huge difference for them

um

and so being able to do that last summer

they all left their jobs they all you

know somewhere a year away from

retirement some were five

um but they all moved into retirement

um

and actually my stepdad passed away five

months after we did that

wow and so he had a whole bunch of

health issues so it wasn't a it wasn't a

huge surprise you know we knew

oh I think we thought he'd lived for

another three or four years

um

but he passed away knowing

that his wife my mom was 100 financially

taken care of

and so like wealth to me is being able

to do that like being able to make sure

that everyone's taken care of everybody

um

uh it's a positive impact on everyone

around you and

um right again it's wild to me right

that one percent of something could

create such a amazing change so yeah I

think that is one of my favorite answers

that we've had because I think it's it

comes down to a lot of things we talk

about on this podcast is generational

wealth as well but a lot of people just

think of generational wealth as handing

it down to maybe their kids or their

grandkids that type of thing but it is

all generations within your family and

what you did was create freedom for so

many people within your family which is

absolutely amazing and just that one

percent changed so many people's lives

um and that is so cool that that it went

through that process so that that is

absolutely amazing so Nathan this was an

amazing conversation I think there's

going to be so much value that people

can take out of this episode so where

can people learn more about you talk

about your Twitter your blog everything

else convertkit everything you have

going on yeah let's see a couple things

uh if you want to follow me on Twitter

uh just at Nathan Berry uh berries

b-a-r-r-y and try to drop threads on you

know life experience things that I'm

learning all of that the blogs at

nathanberry.com the biggest thing we get

on on the email newsletter there's a lot

of stuff that I send out to the

newsletter because I don't polish it up

enough for the blog it's not like a mass

like an epic essay

um and but it's still like my thoughts

and musings

um there's also if you subscribe to that

for long enough you'll you'll see a link

I have a private newsletter just about

money like I only share with people who

like really follow my stuff quite a bit

uh but if you follow the newsletter

you'll you'll end up with a link to that

um and the last thing if you're thinking

about building an audience you know or

you know someone who is uh go to

convertkit it's like everything I know

all the best practices that I know and

that's like built into a software

product uh it's my life's work and it'd

mean the world if you checked it out

absolutely it convertkits absolutely

amazing it's what I use and Nathan's

blog uh or Nathan's blog and Nathan's

email list I read your email every

single week when it comes out it's like

the one I have like always bookmark and

stuff so I think it's one of my it's one

of my favorite newsletters to subscribe

to as well so Nathan thank you so much

this has been absolutely amazing we

truly appreciate you coming on today

yeah thanks for having me