Yuval Noah Harari - “Unstoppable Us, Vol. 2: Why the World Isn't Fair” | The Daily Show

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Yuval Noah Harari discusses the importance of understanding history for self-awareness, particularly for children. He explains how historical knowledge can help us comprehend our fears and desires, rooted in our evolutionary past. Harari emphasizes that while humans created gods and societal structures, they also have the power to change them. He touches on the potential of AI to shape our future narratives and the importance of stories in driving human history. The discussion also humorously addresses the author's views on the role of 'geeks' in shaping our world and the cyclical nature of belief in concepts like money and AI.

Takeaways

• 😀 Yuval Noah Harari discusses the importance of understanding history to know oneself better, relating childhood fears to ancient human experiences.
• 🍰 Harari explains how historical context, like the scarcity of resources in the past, influences current human behaviors, such as overeating.
• 🌱 He suggests that by understanding these historical reasons, individuals can gain better control over their lives and emotions.
• 📚 The conversation touches on the chapter 'Diarrhea Days' from Harari's children's book, illustrating how history can explain the origins of diseases and epidemics.
• 🏡 Harari points out the unintended consequences of human innovations, such as the Agricultural Revolution leading to the rise of infectious diseases.
• 🤖 The discussion warns about the potential risks of new technologies like AI, drawing parallels to past technological revolutions.
• 🌟 Harari emphasizes that humans have the power to shape the world and change unfair structures, as they are the creators of these systems.
• 💸 He refers to money as 'the greatest story ever told,' highlighting the power of shared beliefs and narratives in human society.
• 😇 Harari maintains a neutral academic stance, focusing on explaining historical facts without expressing personal opinions or emotions.
• 🙏 The interview concludes with Harari expressing both hope and concern for the future, acknowledging the potential for change but also the risks of new technologies.
• 🎨 Lastly, Harari speculates on the future of AI in art and storytelling, suggesting that it may eventually surpass human creativity.

Q & A

Why did Yuval Noah Harari decide to write a children's book about the history of humanity?

Yuval Noah Harari believes that understanding history is essential for self-awareness, and that even children can benefit from knowing where their fears and behaviors originate from.

According to Harari, why do children often fear monsters under their beds?

Harari explains that this fear is a memory from our ancestors' time on the savanna, where actual predators like cheetahs and lions could threaten children.

What is the historical reason behind our tendency to overeat unhealthy food, as mentioned by Harari?

In the past, when humans lived on the savanna, it was advantageous to consume as much sweet food as possible to store energy for times of scarcity.

How does Harari suggest that understanding our evolutionary history can help us control our lives?

By understanding why we have certain instincts, such as fear or overeating, we can take steps towards managing these behaviors more effectively.

What is the significance of the chapter 'Diarrhea Days' in Harari's children's book?

The chapter 'Diarrhea Days' is used to explain the origins of epidemics and how the shift from hunter-gatherer societies to settled agricultural communities increased the risk of disease.

Why did hunter-gatherers not suffer from epidemics as Harari describes in the script?

Hunter-gatherers lived in small bands and would move locations if someone got sick, thus preventing the spread of diseases like diarrhea.

What message does Harari think history is trying to convey to us in the current era?

Harari suggests that history warns us about the unintended consequences of our actions and emphasizes that humans have the power to change the world they have created.

How does Harari view the role of technology, such as AI, in shaping our future?

Harari believes that technology like AI is not deterministic; it's how we choose to use it that will shape our societies and politics.

What does Harari consider the greatest story ever told?

Harari refers to money as the greatest story ever told because it holds value solely based on the collective belief in its value.

What is Harari's stance on the role of stories in human society and history?

Harari views stories as a superpower of humans, influencing everything from culture to politics, and even suggesting that changing stories can change the world.

How does Harari respond to Ronny Chieng's question about the future creation of stories and art by AI?

Harari acknowledges the potential for AI to create art and stories in the future, but he also expresses concern about the implications of this development.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Discussing History with Children

The conversation begins with Ronny Chieng expressing his admiration for the guest's work on human history and civilization. The guest explains that understanding history is crucial for self-awareness, even for children. They discuss how historical context can explain common childhood fears, such as monsters under the bed, by linking them to our evolutionary past. The guest also touches on how historical knowledge can help children understand their desires, like overeating, which were once adaptive behaviors in our ancestors' environment. The discussion highlights the importance of history in shaping our present behaviors and emotions.

05:01

🤖 The Role of AI and Human-Created Stories

In this segment, the conversation shifts to the impact of AI and the power of stories in shaping human society. The guest emphasizes that the world we live in is a human creation, and thus, it can be changed by humans. They discuss the unintended consequences of technological advancements, like the agricultural revolution leading to epidemics, and draw parallels to current technologies like AI. The guest argues that technology is not deterministic; it's how we use it that matters. They also discuss the importance of stories, like money and religion, which are human constructs that have significant influence over our lives. The conversation concludes with a humorous exchange about the guest's objectivity and a direct question about the existence of God, to which the guest responds that gods were created by humans.

10:02

🌟 The Future of AI and Human Stories

The final paragraph delves into the future implications of AI on art, storytelling, and religion. The guest suggests that AI is still in its infancy and that its potential is vast, potentially leading to AI-generated art and stories that could reshape our beliefs and culture. There's a debate about the potential dangers of AI taking over human creativity and the loss of human control over these narratives. The guest expresses a mix of optimism and pessimism about the future, highlighting the need for careful consideration of how we integrate AI into society. The conversation ends with a light-hearted moment about the guest's ability to maintain academic objectivity and a final question about a personal, physiological response to cold, which the guest humorously deflects.

Keywords

💡History

History refers to the study of past events, particularly those that have left a significant impact on human societies. In the video, the concept of history is used to explain the underlying reasons for human behaviors and emotions, such as fear of monsters under the bed, which is rooted in our evolutionary past. The discussion emphasizes that understanding history is crucial for comprehending our present and shaping our future.

💡Evolution

Evolution is the process by which species of organisms change over time through genetic variation and natural selection. The video uses evolution to explain certain human tendencies, like the craving for sweet foods, which made sense in the context of our ancestors' environment but can lead to health issues in modern times due to the abundance of high-calorie foods.

💡Agricultural Revolution

The Agricultural Revolution refers to the transition in human history from small, nomadic bands of hunter-gatherers to larger, settled communities that practiced farming. In the script, it is mentioned as a turning point that led to the rise of epidemics due to increased population density, contrasting with the lack of such issues among smaller, nomadic groups.

💡Epidemics

Epidemics are outbreaks of infectious disease that spread rapidly and affect many individuals at once. The video discusses how the shift to agriculture and the concentration of people in towns led to the emergence of epidemics, which were less common among hunter-gatherer societies that could easily move away from disease.

💡Unintended Consequences

Unintended consequences are outcomes that were not anticipated or intended by the people who initiated a particular action. The video script uses the example of the Agricultural Revolution to illustrate how what seemed like a positive development led to negative outcomes, such as epidemics, underscoring the importance of considering potential long-term effects of technological and societal changes.

💡AI (Artificial Intelligence)

AI refers to the simulation of human intelligence in machines that are programmed to think like humans and mimic their actions. The conversation in the video touches on the potential for AI to reshape society, with the speaker cautioning about the need to be aware of the unintended consequences of AI advancements, similar to past technological revolutions.

💡Stories

In the context of the video, 'stories' refers to the narratives and beliefs that humans create and share, which can shape societies and cultures. The script argues that stories are a 'superpower' of humans, as they form the basis of complex social structures, including religions, political systems, and economic frameworks like money.

💡Money

Money is a medium of exchange that is widely accepted in transactions. The video describes money as a story that everyone believes in, emphasizing its nature as a shared belief rather than an inherent value. It highlights how the collective acceptance of money as a form of value is what gives it its significance in society.

💡Feminist Revolution

The Feminist Revolution refers to the social, political, and cultural movements aimed at establishing equality for women. In the script, it is cited as an example of how significant societal change can be achieved without violence, by changing the stories and beliefs that people hold.

💡Cooperation

Cooperation is the act of working together to achieve a common goal. The video suggests that while humans have the resources to address global challenges, what is often lacking is the motivation and ability to cooperate. It implies that collective action is crucial for overcoming obstacles and creating a better future.

💡Objectivity

Objectivity in the video refers to the ability to present information or discuss topics without personal bias or opinion. The speaker maintains an objective stance when discussing historical events and technological advancements, aiming to provide a balanced view and encourage critical thinking about the implications of these developments.

Highlights

The importance of understanding history to know even the most basic things about oneself.

Ancient fears like monsters under the bed are rooted in our evolutionary past.

Understanding our emotions and feelings better through the lens of history.

The evolutionary reason behind our cravings for unhealthy food.

The agricultural revolution's unintended consequences, such as epidemics.

The idea that history can help us understand and potentially control our lives better.

The humorous yet insightful chapter 'Diarrhea Days' in a children's book.

The shift from hunter-gatherer lifestyles to agriculture and its impact on disease.

The challenge of conveying complex historical lessons to children.

The assertion that the world we live in is created by humans and can be changed by them.

The potential dangers of AI and the importance of making the right decisions with technology.

The power of stories in shaping human culture, politics, and even the economy.

The concept that money is a shared story that holds value only because everyone believes in it.

The cyclical nature of belief in currencies and the potential for change in value.

The author's atheistic view and the idea that gods were created by humans.

The optimistic message that humans have the resources to deal with their problems.

The transformative power of stories in changing the world, exemplified by the feminist revolution.

The potential future where AI composes art, stories, and even religion.

The author's equal parts hopeful and pessimistic stance on the future of humanity and AI.

Transcripts

Thanks for joining me. I've been--

Good to be here.

RONNY CHIENG: --watching your stuff for the last,

like, over 10 years, since before I came to America.

I love it.

You kind of specialize in dealing

with the history of humanity and the rise

and fall of civilization.

What made you think that was an appropriate topic

for children?

[LAUGHTER]

This is some pretty heavy stuff, man.

Yes.

But you know, you need to understand

history to know even the most basic things about yourself.

Like, when I was a kid, I was--

I often woke up in the middle of the night,

afraid that there's a monster under the bed, which

happens to a lot of children.

RONNY CHIENG: Yes.

And you call your mom, but you also want

to know, why is it happening?

RONNY CHIENG: Right.

And history actually holds the answer.

What is the answer?

Because this is really a memory from hundreds

of thousands of years ago, when humans lived in the savanna

and there were actually monsters-- cheetahs,

lions-- that came to eat kids.

RONNY CHIENG: OK, see, so is that something

you want kids to know? [LAUGHTER]

Yes.

That these monsters were once real

and they kill kids in their sleep?

Uh, it's important to know that,

because you then understand your own emotions

and feelings better.

You know, you understand that I'm not crazy to be

afraid of these things.

Or for instance, you know, lots of kids,

like adults, they wonder, why do I like to eat so much

stuff that isn't good for me?

Is something wrong with my body?

And again, history holds the answer.

RONNY CHIENG: What is the answer?

Because all those hundreds of thousands of years ago,

it actually made sense.

If you walk along the savanna and you find something sweet,

like sweet fruits, it makes sense to eat as much of it

as quickly as possible.

Because if you eat just one or two fruits

and go away, by the time we come back,

the baboons ate everything.

So it makes sense under those conditions.

Now, today, it doesn't make sense, when

you open the refrigerator and find a chocolate cake,

to eat all of it.

But your body doesn't know.

Your body basically follows the program of evolution

from all those years ago.

Yeah, it's programmed.

So if you can't do anything to stop it, then

what are you telling me for?

You can't stop it, but understanding yourself better

is an important step--

RONNY CHIENG: OK, well--

--to having greater control of your life.

Those are good examples, but I'm

going to quote your book here.

Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

Please.

Let's get to the chapter in this children's

book called "Diarrhea Days."

Oh.

Where, I quote, "someone who got diarrhea couldn't

keep down any food or water, and sometimes they

died from it."

[LAUGHTER]

Is this something you really want kids to know?

[LAUGHTER]

Yes, because it actually explains

where most of the epidemics and infectious diseases came from.

Hunter-gatherers suffered from no epidemics.

They lived in very small bands.

If somebody had diarrhea, then immediately,

all the band would move to another place.

And in any case, only like a few people could get it.

RONNY CHIENG: OK.

But once people switched to agriculture

and we had the big agriculture revolution,

then you have thousands of people stuck

permanently in the town--

The first humans ate a lot of berries and shat their pants

and moved on. - Yes.

RONNY CHIENG: How do you tell that to kids, though?

Like, what's your approach to telling--

how do you even-- everything you just told me, as an adult,

I'm fascinated by.

But when you tell a kid, are they--

you know, they're like, OK, give me more berries?

You know what I mean?

Like, how do they-- you know, how do they absorb the lesson

you're trying to tell them?

I hope that it's written in such a way that even somebody

who is eight or nine, is fully capable of understanding it--

it's actually more difficult to write

for kids than for adults.

RONNY CHIENG: I agree.

Because with adults, if you don't know something,

you just use these complicated words and long sentences,

and they think they don't understand you,

because they don't understand.

With kids, you have to speak very simply.

Yeah, like "sometimes we died from diarrhea."

Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

See, so this is what I think.

This is what I think.

I think you wrote--

you've written Sapiens before, which

is a great book for adults.

And I think that there's too many dumb people

who couldn't understand what you're saying,

so you wrote this--

[LAUGHTER]

--not for kids.

You wrote this for dumb adults.

That's really what this is.

This is a book--

you took-- you put some pictures in there.

[CHEERING, APPLAUSE]

See?

That's an illustration of someone dying from diarrhea.

This isn't for kids.

This is for dumb adults, right?

That's one explanation.

Right.

And you want-- and like, you know,

I feel like a lot of what you're

telling us is the message of what history

is trying to tell us now.

I feel like that's what you're trying to decode right now,

a lot of it.

And I guess, what is the message that history

is trying to tell us now?

Many messages.

I mean, one thing is to beware of unintended consequences

of what we do.

Like, again, the agricultural revolution-- people

thought it was a good idea.

It brought about epidemics.

So same lesson for the big revolutions of right

now, like AI.

The more important message is that the world in which we

live have been created by humans,

and therefore humans can change it.

If something is unfair, it's not

the laws of nature that created our economy,

our nations, our religions.

They're all created by human beings.

Right.

And--

[CHEERING, APPLAUSE]

Yeah.

You see, that's-- [LAUGHS] It sounds hopeful,

but you think about it and you're like,

oh, no, humans did all this?

What hope do we have? - Who else?

No, I know, but like, what hope

do we have of changing things? I mean, how much of--

I guess what I'm saying is, how much of this is inevitable,

you know?

Like, when you study history, you go--

No, history is never deterministic.

I mean, like, you think about technology.

Every technology can be used to create

very different societies.

You think about-- I don't know--

North Korea and South Korea.

Exactly the same technology, but they use electricity

in a slightly different way.

One place, they produce K-pop, and just up north,

big hats and missiles.

So--

[LAUGHTER]

OK.

Uh-- [LAUGHS] Am I supposed to just take that,

or am I supposed to--

[LAUGHTER]

OK. Fine.

Well--

On a more serious level, again,

people have a lot of fears about technology-- what

it will do to our politics.

But again, you think about South Korea and North Korea.

So same people, same history, same technology, and you

have a liberal democracy on one side

and a totalitarian regime on the other.

So it's not the technology that is shaping

our politics or our regimes.

It is what we decide to do with the technology.

RONNY CHIENG: Sure.

Well, you say that.

You say that we are in charge of the technology in a way.

Yeah.

But you know, the kind of-- one of the thesis statements

of your book is that we're all going to get replaced

by technological beings--

YUVAL NOAH HARARI: If we make the wrong decisions.

I mean, again, it's not inevitable.

AI, like electricity, like, you know, the earliest--

I don't know-- writing, when people invented writing.

So you can do many things with the technology of writing.

You can write poetry.

You can write taxes.

You can write--

you can say ""[BLEEP] you" as well.

You can write, like, a--

Uh, you can.

But again, it's a choice of people.

Actually, interestingly enough, the first person

that we know his name--

RONNY CHIENG: Yeah.

--he was not a conqueror.

He was not a big prophet or king.

He was a geek.

He was an accountant.

Like, we have these stone and clay tablets

from ancient Mesopotamia with accounts of payments

and receipts and salaries and stuff like that,

signed by these ancient geeks.

And they are the first people.

RONNY CHIENG: OK.

So-- [LAUGHS] You keep calling these people geeks,

and I'm like, do you like them or you don't like them?

I don't know.

Are they-- are they good? Are they bad?

They're good.

I mean, Jesus said the geek will inherit the Earth, no?

[LAUGHTER]

So back on that topic, so you keep saying,

you know, stories are the superpower of humans,

in a way, right?

Everything we kind of do, if you think about it,

from culture to politics, even money--

YUVAL NOAH HARARI: Yeah, money.

Money is the greatest story ever told.

It's the only story everybody believes.

RONNY CHIENG: Sure.

And, you know, it's-- when you look at it,

it has no value in itself.

The value comes only from the stories we tell about it,

as every cryptocurrency guru or bitcoin enthusiast knows,

it's all about the story.

There is nothing else.

It's just a story.

OK.

So is it real?

Is bitcoin-- I mean, time to invest in bitcoin right now?

I don't know what you're-- [LAUGHTER]

So is it a good thing or a bad thing?

I--

It's kind of a cyclical thing.

If enough people believe in it, then

you can go to the supermarket and buy whatever you want.

If people lose faith in the story,

then it's worth nothing.

And that's true of the bitcoin.

It's true of the dollar and of every other currency

that people ever invented.

OK, you see, when you talk about these things,

you're always very objective.

You'll always be like, hey, man, I'm just--

I'm just telling you how it is.

I'm like, what do you think?

Do you think-- what makes you go, [BLEEP] this?

You know, because when you talk about history,

you're always like, oh, you know, the humans came out,

and then some of them ate berries.

And you know.

You maintain this kind of academic objectivity.

But what-- - That's the idea.

What makes-- yeah, but what actually-- do you go, [BLEEP]

this shit, this is awful?

What makes you go-- because you seem to be OK with everything.

You're like, yeah, come on, it's a tool.

We don't know.

Do you go like, [BLEEP] AI?

This is bad?

Like, what makes you go, no?

The question about every story, whether about money,

AI, whatever, is whether it increases or decreases

the suffering in the world. RONNY CHIENG: Yeah.

You see, this is a non-answer.

Just tell me what you hate.

Tell me what you hate. - What I hate?

RONNY CHIENG: Yeah.

OK, so OK, can we solve this right now?

So you think that--

you're openly atheist?

Yes.

Yes.

So can you clarify right now that God is just made up?

- Yes. - OK.

So God is made-- we heard it here.

OK.

God-- can you say it to the camera, please?

We need-- - Yeah.

Humans created gods.

RONNY CHIENG: OK, great. We settled it.

That's great.

This guy-- we solved it.

[LAUGHTER]

Again, it should be emphasized,

just because humans created it doesn't mean it's bad.

It can also do good things.

RONNY CHIENG: Stop!

Stop hedging this.

Just let it ride.

Just go with the "sucks."

We need more-- see, this is my-- this is my problem.

I think we need more people with, kind of, objectivity,

calmly discussing things.

I don't think that's--

you know, is anything in what you've seen with humanity

telling you that we can pull ourselves out of all

these downsides in history?

Absolutely.

I mean, humans have--

I mean, all the problems we face,

we also have the resources to deal with them.

Whether it's climate change, whether it's the rise of AI,

we have the resources.

What we usually lack is the motivation and the ability

to cooperate with one another.

But I mean, you know, some people think

that to solve the big problems, you

always need to use violence.

Like, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

But when you look at history, it's absolutely not true.

You think, for instance, about the feminist revolution.

After thousands of years of huge injustice,

feminism made a huge change in the social structure

of humanity without starting any wars,

without assassinating anybody, no guillotines in city square.

So that's one of the hopeful examples of how

people can, just by changing the story,

also change the world.

I mean, the idea that stories--

[LAUGHTER]

I think you're converting people to your religion.

The idea that the stories kind of fuel history--

there is a positive promise there,

that if it's all about power, the only way to change power

structures is with violence.

But if it's really, at least in part,

about the stories people believe, then potentially,

by talking with people and changing

the stories in which they believe,

you can change the world.

OK, that's very optimistic, but--

[CHEERING, APPLAUSE]

--I'm not hopeful.

So I mean, one last question.

One thing I really enjoy about your work

is that you like to tie, kind of,

current modern behavior to our evolutionary beginnings.

For example, you know, like you said,

we wake up in the middle of the night when we're

kids because we ran from actual monsters

when we were children.

Yeah.

So I'd just like to know, why is it that whenever I pee,

I shiver?

[LAUGHTER]

Like, what was the evolutionary reason--

Maybe you should ask a doctor.

I'm not sure.

RONNY CHIENG: No, no, no, no, no.

I'm asking you, Mr. Expert.

I'm not an expert on everything.

[LAUGHTER]

All right.

The last thing I found very interesting

is, you said that, like, right now,

we have humans composing things and AI amplifying it.

That's our current situation.

And you say in the future, we're going to have

AI composing things and--

The images you saw before of AI generating fake images--

Yes.

This is basically a kind of art.

So it's still the first steps.

RONNY CHIENG: Right.

But AI is still a baby.

It's, like, you know, 10 years since the start of the--

of the major AI revolution.

So we haven't seen anything yet.

RONNY CHIENG: OK.

And it is very likely that in a couple of years or decades,

much of art, many of the stories we believe,

even religion, will be increasingly

created by this alien intelligence and not

by human intelligence.

OK, see, that's bad. That's a bad thing.

What you just said-- that's not good.

That's a very dangerous thing.

Yes, absolutely. - OK.

So are you going to say, [BLEEP] that?

Can you at least say that's bad, or are you going to--

Uh, yeah, that's bad. RONNY CHIENG: OK, good.

[LAUGHTER]

I finally got him to say something bad.

[CHEERING, APPLAUSE]

OK, I don't know.

I guess I'm equal parts hopeful and pessimistic

about the future.

I'm sorry--

That's a good stance.

Yeah.

It's a balanced stance.

Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

All right.

Thank you so much for speaking to me.

Unstoppable Us, Vol.

2 is available now.

Yuval Noah Harari, everybody.