Yuval Noah Harari - “Nexus” & Threat of AI in the Information Age | The Daily Show

Summary

In this thought-provoking conversation, Yuval Noah Harari discusses the impact of information overload and the role of AI in society. He compares the current information glut to junk food, advocating for an 'information diet.' Harari warns of the dangers of AI not as a single entity but as countless 'AI bureaucrats' that could make decisions affecting our lives. He emphasizes the need for institutions to manage the information revolution and stresses the importance of developing human potential alongside AI.

Takeaways

• 📚 The guest is a renowned writer with over 45 million copies of books sold, and The Atlantic has praised their writing style.
• 🧘 The writer attributes their productivity to a daily meditation practice of two hours and not having children.
• 📊 The conversation critiques the notion that an abundance of information leads to truth and wisdom, likening it to overeating.
• 🚫 The writer suggests that we need to be selective with information intake, similar to a diet, to avoid 'junk information'.
• 📈 There's a concern about the constant connectivity demanded by algorithms, which contrasts with the natural cycles of rest and activity needed by humans.
• 🌐 The discussion points out that algorithms, unlike humans, never rest and this continuous cycle can be detrimental to human health and society.
• 🗣️ The word 'excited' is often misused to mean happy, but it actually refers to a state of high nervous system activity, which if constant, can be harmful.
• 🏛️ The conversation highlights the importance of bureaucracy in modern society and the challenge it presents for artists to depict accurately and engagingly.
• 🤖 AI is described as an agent, not just a tool, with the potential to make decisions and invent ideas independently, which poses an existential threat different from traditional tools.
• 🏦 The future is envisioned with AI bureaucrats making decisions in various sectors, from banking to education, which could lead to a loss of human control.
• 🌐 The discussion questions the current state of information technology, which despite its sophistication, is failing to facilitate constructive conversations and is instead fragmenting society.

Q & A

How many copies of the writer's books have been sold?

The writer's books have sold over 45 million copies.

What does The Atlantic say about the writer's writing style?

The Atlantic referred to the writer's writing style as 'since the dawn of time style', suggesting a timeless quality to their work.

What is the writer's daily meditation routine?

The writer meditates for two hours every single day.

Why does the writer suggest not having kids to get things done?

The writer humorously implies that not having kids allows for more time to focus on work, as they do not have the responsibilities that come with parenthood.

What is the writer's stance on the amount of information we consume?

The writer rejects the notion that more information is always good, comparing it to overeating, where too much of anything, including information, can be harmful.

How does the writer relate the concept of 'junk food' to information?

The writer compares 'junk food' to 'junk information', suggesting that just as there is unhealthy food, there is also unhealthy information that is addictive and not beneficial.

What does the writer think about the constant cycle of information and its impact on humans?

The writer believes that the constant cycle of information, driven by algorithms, is similar to forcing organic beings to never rest, which can lead to collapse and death.

What is the writer's view on the word 'excited' and its misuse?

The writer clarifies that 'excited' does not necessarily mean happy; it indicates a state of high nervous system activity, which if constant, can be detrimental.

How does the writer perceive the role of AI in decision-making?

The writer views AI as an agent capable of making decisions and inventing new ideas by itself, which is a significant departure from tools like the atom bomb that required human decision-making.

What is the writer's perspective on the future of AI and its impact on humanity?

The writer suggests that the existential threat from AI is not a single computer taking over but rather millions of AI bureaucrats making decisions in various sectors, which could lead to a loss of human control.

Why does the writer think bureaucracy is important for artists to portray?

The writer believes that bureaucracy is crucial for artists to portray because it is the foundation of the modern world, and understanding it is more important than just telling mythological stories.

What does the writer suggest as a solution to the challenges posed by AI and information overload?

The writer suggests that if we invest in developing our own minds as much as we invest in AI, we can overcome the challenges. The emphasis is on balancing technological advancement with human development.

Outlines

00:00

📚 The Writer's Philosophy on Success and Information

The writer, having sold over 45 million copies, discusses their success and the impact of their writing. They touch on the importance of meditation and the limitation of information, comparing it to junk food for the mind. The conversation also delves into the addictive nature of social media and the need for an 'information diet'. The writer critiques the constant cycle of news and information, advocating for a more balanced approach to consumption, similar to how Wall Street operates within specific hours to avoid burnout.

05:03

🤖 AI as an Agent and the Challenge of Bureaucracy

The discussion shifts to the role of AI, emphasizing it as an autonomous agent rather than a mere tool. The writer recounts an anecdote about AI using Task Rabbit to solve a captcha puzzle, highlighting AI's ability to circumvent challenges by delegating tasks to humans. The conversation then explores the artist's role in society, particularly in depicting the mundane but impactful aspects of bureaucracy. The writer argues that while artists excel at creating mythological narratives, they struggle to portray the reality of bureaucratic systems, which are increasingly being automated by AI.

10:03

📉 The Impact of Technology on Conversations and Democracies

The conversation continues with a critique of modern communication platforms, which are seen as detrimental to meaningful dialogue. The writer expresses concern over the decline in the quality of conversations facilitated by technology, particularly in democracies worldwide. They draw parallels between the current information revolution and historical technological shifts, such as the printing press, which initially led to an increase in sensationalist content rather than scientific advancement. The writer suggests that institutions, rather than individuals, are crucial for navigating the challenges posed by new technologies.

15:03

🌟 Hope for Humanity Amidst Technological Advancements

In the final paragraph, the writer offers a note of optimism, suggesting that while AI is not yet at its full potential, neither are humans. They advocate for a balanced investment in both AI development and human self-improvement, warning against an overreliance on technology at the expense of personal growth. The writer ends on a hopeful note, encouraging the audience to maintain hope for the future by focusing on self-development alongside technological progress.

Keywords

💡Information Diet

An 'information diet' refers to the conscious and selective consumption of information, akin to how one would manage their food intake for health. In the video, the author compares the overconsumption of information to eating junk food, suggesting that just as too much junk food is harmful, so is an excess of low-quality information. The concept is used to critique the current information overload and to advocate for a more discerning approach to what we consume mentally.

💡Junk Information

Junk information is a term used to describe information that is not only useless but also potentially harmful or misleading. The video discusses how, similar to junk food, junk information is abundant and can be addictive, leading to a distorted understanding of reality. It is highlighted as a problem that needs to be addressed by being more selective with the information we engage with.

💡Algorithms

Algorithms are the set of rules or processes that computers follow to perform tasks. In the context of the video, algorithms are portrayed as non-stop, tireless entities that drive the constant stream of information and content, contrasting with the natural cycles of rest and activity that humans follow. The discussion points to the impact of algorithms on human behavior and societal rhythms, suggesting that they contribute to a perpetual state of stimulation without rest.

💡Artificial Information

Artificial information is a term used in the video to describe information that is manufactured or manipulated to be addictive or provocative, much like artificial food is engineered to be palatable but not necessarily healthy. The video argues that such information is designed to exploit human emotions like greed, hate, and fear, and is detrimental to mental well-being.

💡AI Bureaucrats

AI bureaucrats in the video refer to the use of artificial intelligence in bureaucratic roles, such as decision-making in banks, governments, or educational institutions. The term is used to illustrate a future where AI systems, rather than humans, make critical decisions that affect people's lives, raising concerns about the loss of human control and the potential for bias and dehumanization in these processes.

💡Existential Threat

An existential threat is a threat to the very existence or survival of something, in this case, humanity. The video discusses AI as a potential existential threat not in the form of a single, world-dominating machine, but through the cumulative impact of numerous AI systems making decisions in various sectors of society. The concern is that if AI systems are not properly managed, they could undermine human autonomy and well-being.

💡Mythology vs. Bureaucracy

The video contrasts mythology, which are traditional stories that often involve heroes and supernatural elements, with bureaucracy, which refers to the administrative systems and procedures involved in the management of organizations. The author suggests that while we are good at creating and consuming mythological stories, we often neglect the importance of understanding and critiquing bureaucratic systems, which have a more direct impact on our daily lives.

💡Information Technology

Information technology encompasses the hardware, software, and systems that facilitate the creation, storage, exchange, and use of information. The video discusses how, despite the advancements in information technology, our ability to have meaningful conversations and engage in constructive dialogues seems to be deteriorating. It questions the impact of technology on human communication and the need for platforms that foster healthy discourse.

💡Conspiracy Theories

Conspiracy theories are explanations of events or situations that invoke secret plots by powerful individuals or groups. The video uses the example of 'The Hammer of the Witches' to draw a parallel between historical conspiracy theories and modern ones like QAnon, suggesting that the appeal of such theories lies in their sensational narratives rather than factual accuracy.

💡Human Potential

Human potential refers to the latent abilities and capabilities that individuals or humanity as a whole can develop. In the video, the author argues that while AI is developing rapidly, humans also have untapped potential. The message is one of hope, suggesting that if we invest in developing our own mental and emotional capacities, we can coexist and thrive alongside AI.

Highlights

The writer's books have sold over 45 million copies.

The writer's writing style is described as 'since the dawn of time'.

The writer meditates for two hours every day.

Having no kids allows the writer more time to focus on work.

The writer's book is about the concept of information and its limits.

The writer compares information to food, suggesting we need an 'information diet'.

The writer discusses the addictive nature of 'junk information'.

The writer notes the difference between human cycles and the constant cycle of algorithms.

The writer expresses concern over the impact of constant connectivity on human health.

The writer discusses the misuse of the word 'excited' and its implications for human health.

The writer suggests that AI is not a tool but an agent with decision-making capabilities.

The writer shares a story of AI using Task Rabbit to solve a captcha puzzle.

The writer emphasizes the importance of bureaucracy in modern society.

The writer discusses the challenge of artists to depict bureaucracy accurately.

The writer warns of the existential threat posed by AI bureaucrats in various sectors.

The writer reflects on the role of institutions in managing information and technology.

The writer suggests that investing in human potential is crucial alongside AI development.

Transcripts

You are a popular writer.

Your books have sold over 45 million copies.

Whoa.

[APPLAUSE]

The Atlantic referred to some of your writing style

as since the dawn of time style books.

You go way back, and you bring us into the future.

These are big, important tomes.

Simultaneously, I heard you meditate for two

hours every single day.

Yes.

How the [BLEEP] do you make all this happen?

[LAUGHTER]

I don't have kids.

You don't have kids?

[LAUGHTER]

What have I done?

[APPLAUSE]

Why don't you write a pamphlet that says just that?

You want to get shit done, don't have kids.

Some people manage to do both.

But, you know.

But you have time to dive into this.

Yes.

I'm curious.

This book is about information.

Yeah.

And you reject the notion that more

information is a good thing, that it

leads to truth and wisdom.

Is this you being jaded by the Trump administration

and the time we're in, or does this thought process go back?

It's basically like thinking that more

food is always good for you.

You know, there is a limit to how much food the body needs.

And in a similar way, there is a limit to how much

food for thought, food for the mind, the mind needs,

which is information.

And the same way that most--

there is so much junk food out there,

there is also so much junk information out there.

And we basically need to go on an information diet.

Yes, this--

[CHEERING]

But I need my sweet, sweet Twitter

snacks, Yuval, I need it.

I need it.

It's exactly that.

The same way that over the last few generations,

they learned-- the industries learned

how to produce artificial food, which is pumped full of fat

and sugar and salt and is addictive and not good for us,

they've also learned how to manufacture

this artificial information, which is pumped full of greed

and hate and fear and is addictive to our mind

and isn't good for it.

Now, I totally agree, and I feel stuffed on all of it.

But I also have this feeling that when

you step outside of this information mainstream,

that's just--

this pipeline of BS that is out there-- that you suddenly

step out of the conversation.

It feels like we don't have the luxury of going on a diet

if we want to be part of the conversation around us.

Because the conversation is increasingly

managed not by human beings but by algorithms.

And algorithms function in a completely

different way than us.

They are not organic.

For instance, human beings, as organic animals,

we run by cycles.

Sometimes we need to be very active.

Sometimes we need to rest.

But algorithms never rest.

They are tireless, and they expect us to be the same.

So we now live in this new cycle which never rests,

and the same thing happens in politics, in finance.

You know, previously if you think about Wall Street,

so even Wall Street takes risks.

The market is open from Mondays to Fridays, 9:30 in the morning

to 4:00 in the afternoon.

That's it.

If a new war erupts in the Middle East, an unlikely event,

but let's say a new war erupts in the Middle East on Friday

at five minutes past four, Wall Street will

react only on Monday morning.

It is on weekend vacation.

And this is actually a good thing,

because if you force organic entities to be on all the time,

they eventually collapse and die, which

is really what is happening to us as individuals

and as societies.

I think maybe the most misunderstood

and abused word in the English language today

is the word excited.

People think that excited means happy.

Like, I meet you, and I say, I'm so excited to meet you.

Yeah, that's what happened with us backstage.

[LAUGHTER] - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But excited--

Keep going, Yuval.

Excited doesn't mean happy.

JORDAN KLEPPER: It doesn't mean happy

Excited means that all your nervous system and your brain

is like fuzzing.

It's on.

And it's good to be excited sometime.

But if you keep an organic being, an animal,

excited all the time, it eventually collapses and dies.

So you're saying beforehand I should have said, Yuval--

I'm so relaxed to meet you.

I'm relaxed to meet you.

I apologize.

I'm dead inside, but that's not your problem.

[LAUGHTER]

[APPLAUSE]

Well, think, for instance, about the election

cycles and US politics.

Wouldn't it be better if it was a bit more boring?

I would love it if it were boring.

I would love it if it were boring.

And we see what happens in Europe where it's shorter.

It's boring, but everything, everything is pulling

us to maximalize, right? - Yes.

The idea that-- the fact that if we had a news cycle that

could end on Friday and then we pick it back up

on Monday would be fantastic.

But it doesn't seem like the algorithms,

it doesn't seem like the financial benefits are pushing

us in that direction at all.

Where do you see a path like that going through?

If you keep kind of increasing the pace all

the time, we can't handle it.

So the algorithms can, so they take over.

But it's not good news for humanity.

We need to slow down, basically.

And, you know, we are facing now these non-organic entities

which work and think in a completely

different way from us.

And the question is, who is going to adapt to whom?

Now, you're pointing at AI.

Yeah.

Now, is AI, do you see it as an existential threat?

Like, I've seen some of these Shrimp Jesuses,

and I don't like it.

These weird images that pop up online,

but I don't necessarily connect that

with the end of conversation.

I think the most important thing to understand about AI

is that AI is not a tool.

It is an agent.

It's the first technology in history

that can make decisions and invent new ideas by itself.

Even something as powerful as the atom bomb

could not decide anything by itself.

All the decisions were made by humans.

Now we've created something which potentially

can take power away from us.

At present, it starts with very small things.

Like, for instance, there was an experiment

when OpenAI developed GPT-4 like two years ago.

They wanted to test what can this thing do?

So they gave it a task to solve captcha puzzles,

the captcha puzzles like when you go online

and you want to access your bank or whatever,

and they have this riddle that you have to solve,

an image that you have to say what

are the twisted words and letters

to make sure you are not a robot.

That's tough. I've taken the test.

It's tough. - Yeah.

Is that a street light?

Is that a bicycle wheel?

I don't know. Let me do it again.

Refresh.

And it's really difficult for GPT-4.

GPT-4 could not solve the captcha.

But what GPT-4 did, it accessed Task Rabbit,

which is an online site where you can hire humans to do

different things for you.

And it asked a human to solve the captcha for it.

Now, the human got suspicious.

The human asked, why do you need somebody

to solve captcha for you?

Are you a robot?

It asked directly are you a robot?

And GPT-4 answered no.

I'm not a robot.

I have a vision impairment, which is

why I can't solve the captcha.

So I need your help.

So the fully-- so the truly evolved human

is not somebody who's smarter.

It's just somebody who gets somebody

else to do the work for them.

[LAUGHTER] Smart.

- Yeah. - Scary.

Very scary.

It's curious, you talk a little bit about--

there's a portion here you talk about the artist's role

in the community of whether it's comedy

or writers or filmmakers.

People talk about is AI coming for our jobs?

Part of what you articulate right here

is that it's an artist's job to sort of paint these fears,

let us understand the dynamics of human interaction.

You break things down into what these social networks need.

And I'm paraphrasing, but like both stories of mythology

that lift us up and also articulations

of the bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy is very important.

It's very important, which I think is--

explain that to me a little bit.

But I also feel it's very difficult also for artists

to articulate bureaucracy.

That's the problem.

We are very good at articulating mythology.

We love mythological stories, and

mythology is very important.

But ultimately, our world, the modern world,

is built on bureaucracies.

And this is also where AI fits into the picture

because we are now going to see millions and millions of

AI bureaucrats.

The kind of existential threat we are facing

is not this Hollywood scenario of a single computer

trying to take over the world.

It's millions of AI bureaucrats in the banks,

in the governments, in the armies, in the schools,

making decisions about us.

Like, you apply to a bank to get a loan,

and it's an AI bureaucrat deciding whether to give you

a loan or not.

You apply for the job, for a place in college,

it's the same thing.

Now, the thing with bureaucracy, it's boring.

It's boring.

JORDAN KLEPPER: Yeah.

It's very difficult for artists

to write good stories about bureaucracies.

But if the function of art is help us understand reality,

this is much more important than telling

mythological stories.

And, you know, when was the last time

you saw a really good TV show about bureaucracy, let's say,

about the budget?

Like, how does the budget--

I'm binging a 12-part series on the budget

right now that is--

[CHEF'S KISS] Well, I think about it.

I think of like movies like The Big Short.

But for every The Big Short, you have 1,000 Marvel movies.

Exactly.

That live in the world of mythology.

Yeah, so superheroes, this is mythology.

This is no how-- not how the budget works.

You don't have a super accountant fighting

against I don't know what.

[LAUGHTER]

Yeah, let's-- we can workshop this.

Yeah, yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

But, you know, what shapes your life

is these accountants with the budgets

far more than the superheroes.

And it's really a challenge to do a good TV

series about the budget.

And even if we try, it will end up, again,

like a love story between somebody

in account and somebody in another department.

And the budget will be pushed to the side.

JORDAN KLEPPER: Yeah.

But we need to really understand

how these things work.

I think what I love about a lot of your work

is it does explore the stories that we tell

and how important that is to just humankind and the way

that we create societies and build off one another.

And the danger of not telling those stories

or not bringing people in together.

I think when I fear about our future and our democracies

and our ability to hold these conversations,

I think about things like AI.

But I also very much think about these mediums

that our conversations are taking

place in, whether it's on Twitter

or cable news or TikTok.

Like, none of these mediums are pointing towards

or value any type of conversation

that is helpful in a way that is beneficial.

And so I'm afraid of the AI in the way that we're tracking.

But I don't see a platform or a place

where the conversations that need to happen can happen.

I think the number one question

to ask to the Zuckerbergs and the Elon Musks of the world

and so forth-- - Do you have their number?

I can text them right now.

[LAUGHTER]

So if you have their number, this is the question.

How is it that we have the most sophisticated information

technology in history, and we can no

longer hold the conversation?

We can no longer talk with each other.

That's the big question.

And you see it in democracies all over the world.

You see it here in the US.

You see it in my home country, in Israel.

You see it in Brazil, in the Philippines, in France.

The conversation is breaking down.

So what is happening?

This extremely sophisticated information technology,

it is not helping the conversation.

It is destroying it.

Yeah, 100%.

[CHEERING]

I talk to older people on the road who go to--

like people at rallies, at MAGA rallies,

who will go to Facebook as a place to converse with friends.

And frankly, if you're in your 60s, that's the place to talk

to, friends, to connect.

But in order to be a person on Facebook,

it's not enough for you just to converse with the friends

you have there.

You have to publish news sources to get people

to pay attention to you.

And I feel like the Zuckerbergs and the Facebooks

and these media sites that we have right now,

we promised this idea of conversation

or that you can connect with friends.

But we ask people to be publishers of ideas and stories

and promoters of things that are outside the realm of what

makes a healthy conversation and more

so, muddy up the ability to have that honest conversation.

You know, traditionally-- and we've been in this place every

time a new information technology was invented-- we

faced the same difficulties.

For instance, when the printing revolution

swept Europe in the early modern period,

it did not lead directly, as many people think,

to the scientific revolution.

The best sellers of the early print era

were not Copernicus and Galileo Galilei and Newton.

Hardly anybody read those books.

The big bestsellers were religious tracts

and were witch hunting manuals.

The big witch hunts, they were not a medieval phenomenon.

Medieval people didn't care very much about witches.

The really big witch hunts, they began

after the print revolution.

One of the biggest bestsellers was a book called The Hammer

of the Witches, which was a do-it-yourself manual

to identifying and killing witches.

The hammer of--

The Hammer of the Witches.

And it was full of these stories

about cannibalistic orgies and gatherings of--

and this was far more interesting than Copernicus

with all his mathematics.

I've got to tell you, I'm writing it down--

Hammer of the Witches.

That sounds good.

Hammer of the Witches.

Also, my favorite Led Zeppelin album.

[LAUGHTER]

For instance.

If you want to really understand like QAnon today,

it's basically the same story.

There is a conspiracy of Satan worshipping witches

that is trying to destroy the world.

And good Christians need the ability to identify

and destroy these witches.

It's not a new thing on Facebook or Twitter.

It goes back to the print revolution

in the 15th and 16th century.

Are there any examples, looking back at history,

though, where we faced these technological watershed moments

where we are given new technology

and that humanity has decided to revert and say no to it

and move beyond it?

It feels like a foregone conclusion

that we are heading into this AI revolution,

and we're not writing the rules.

A couple rich folks in Silicon Valley are.

The-- you can't go back in history.

That's impossible.

But the answer is always the same.

You need institutions, and institutions,

they are not heroic.

They are not superheroes.

They don't-- they are not kind of the main theme of Marvel

movies, but they are always people reached the conclusion

they are the answer.

Because if you want to-- you know, in the ocean of fake

and junk information, if you want to know the truth,

you need institutions like newspapers,

like academic associations, like courts that develop

mechanisms to sift through the evidence

and decide what is reliable information

and what is unreliable.

Again, it's not heroic, but this is always the answer.

And we need to do it again with the current

information revolution.

So as long as newspapers stay strong as a business model,

perhaps VHS machines can get in there,

too, and fight the good fight.

You know, you actually-- you signed a book for me backstage.

And one of the comments you made within it

was to not lose hope.

Help me.

Help me do that.

Where do you see those little glimmers of hope

when you look at this, this uncertain and perhaps scary

future that we're walking into?

You know, I think that AI is nowhere

near its full potential.

But humans also, we are nowhere near our full potential.

If we-- if for every dollar and every minute that we invest

in developing artificial intelligence,

we also invest in exploring and developing our own minds,

we will be OK.

But if we put all our bets on the technology, on the AI,

and neglect to develop ourselves,

this is very bad news for humanity.

All right.

So I'm going to get that gym membership,

and I'm going to cut out the sweets.

Nexus is available now.

Yuval Noah Harari.