【実践の場面で学ぶ行動経済学】行動経済学者と行動経済学×広告の戦略家が語る行動経済学の光と影／行動経済学がビジネスに与える影響／行動経済学から見る日本【PIVOT GLOBAL】

Summary

このスクリプトでは、行動経済学者のエヴァと言語学者でコピーライターのティムが、日本のビジネス環境における行動経済学の適用について議論します。エヴァは日本の社会規範の違いや選択の多さによる消費者のストレスを指摘し、行動経済学の概念をビジネス戦略に取り入れることの重要性を説きます。ティムは日本の外広告の進歩を評価し、広告が社会現象であることを強調しています。彼らは、小さな環境変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与える「家蝇効果」や、現在の選択肢に過剰に重きを置く「現在偏誤」についても触れています。

Takeaways

• 🧠 人脳は環境の些細な変化に非常に敏感で、それらが私たちの行動に大きな影響を与える。
• 🛍️ 消費者は選択肢の多さに圧倒されがちで、選択することに対する恐怖や選択不安を感じることがある。
• 📚 行動経済学者エヴァと言語学者でコピーライターのティムが、ビジネス分野における行動経済学の活用について語る。
• 🏪 モロカ書店のように、一度に一つの商品のみを提供することで成功するビジネスモデルがあることを示す。
• 🚇 東京の社会規範の密度と人々との接触の多さに、外国人は戸惑いを感じることがある。
• 🌐 行動経済学は世界中で通用するもので、脳の機能は人種や地域によって大きく変わらない。
• 🏙️ 東京の秩序と組織の良さは、オランダのアムステルダムと比べて顕著である。
• 🎨 広告においては、多くの人々にメッセージを届けることが重要で、それがブランド認知を高める社会現象である。
• 🔍 行動経済学はビジネスにおけるバイアスや選択のバイアスを理解し、それらを緩和するための戦略を提供する。
• 📈 ビジネスリーダーは、現在進行形のプロジェクトにばかり注目する傾向があり、長期的な戦略を無視する。
• 🔑 行動経済学の教訓を実践することは、自己規制のためのルーティンや習慣を築くことである。
• 🛒 スーパーマーケットでの健康食品の配置は、顧客が健康的な選択を誤解する原因になる可能性がある。

Q & A

環境の些細な変化が人々の行動にどれほど影響を与えるとされていますか？

環境の些細な変化は、人々の行動に大きな影響を与えるとされています。小さな変化は、人が選択をすることや行動を決定する際に、意識していないところで大きな役割を果たします。

選択肢の多さに対する人々の反応はどのようになっていますか？

選択肢が多すぎると、消費者は選択肢の多さに圧倒されることが多く、選択肢に対する恐怖や選択焦虑症に悩むことがあります。人々は選択肢を持つことが好きな一方で、実際に選択をすることは嫌いだとかかれる傾向があります。

エヴァとティムはそれぞれどのような専門分野を持っていますか？

エヴァは行動経済学者であり、ティムは言語学者でコピーライターであり、広告ビジネスに関与しています。

日本のモロカ書店のビジネスモデルはどのようなものでしょうか？

モロカ書店は、一度に1つの商品のみを提供することで成功を収めています。週ごとに1つのタイトルを慎重に選んで販売しており、これは消費者に選択をするための助けとなります。

行動経済学は日本独特のものですか、それとも普遍的なものでもありますか？

行動経済学は、人間の脳がどのように環境と相互作用するかについての学問であり、基本原則は普遍的です。しかし、社会のルールや習慣は異なるため、行動経済学の応用には地域差があります。

「家蝇効果」とはどのような概念で、なぜ重要なのでしょうか？

「家蝇効果」とは、小さな環境の変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与えることを指す概念です。小さな刺激が、人々の注意を引き、行動を変える可能性があるため重要です。

ビジネスにおいて「現在偏在効果」とは何を指し、どのように対処するべきですか？

「現在偏在効果」とは、人々の意思決定が現在の状況や手近な選択肢に過剰に重きを置く傾向を指します。対処するためには、長期的な戦略やリスクに時間を割き、意思決定プロセスを改善することが重要です。

バイアスを排除するために採用プロセスで何をすべきですか？

採用プロセスでバイアスを排除するためには、データやHR分析を通じてギャップを特定し、採用プロセス全体を評価することが重要です。また、職位の空缺期間を延ばすことで、より多様な候補者を受け入れる機会を増やすことができます。

人々の意思決定はなぜ短期間に偏りがちなのですか？

短期間に偏りがちなのは、人間の脳が直ちに得られる報酬や利益を過剰に重視する傾向があるためです。これは「現在偏在効果」として知られており、遠い将来の利益よりも手近な利益を優先する傾向があります。

自己制御を強化するために日常の中でどのようなアプローチを取ることができますか？

自己制御を強化するためには、習慣を形成したり、目標を追跡可能な形にしたりすることが有効です。例えば、定期的にジムに行く習慣をつけたり、特定の日に買い物をしたりするなど、小さな成功体験を通じて自己効力感を高めることができます。

日本のHR業界における性别ギャップの原因は何だと考えられますか？

日本のHR業界における性别ギャップの原因は、社会的規範や隠れたルール、そして文化的な期待に起因するバイアスなど多岐にわたる可能性があります。意識的な取り組みや制度的な改革が求められます。

企業は自社のマーケティング戦略の「トリック」を透明化すべきですか？

企業は消費者に対して透明性を持つことが望ましいとされていますが、マーケティングの「トリック」について完全に透明化すると、逆に消費者の選択の自由を制限する可能性があるため、バランスの取れたアプローチが重要です。

Outlines

00:00

🧠 環境の些細な変化と行動経済学

第1段落では、選択の多さによる消费者的問題と行動経済学の基礎について語られています。ゲストである行動経済学者のエヴァとコピーライターで広告ビジネスのティムが、日本の社会規範や環境の違いに触れながら、行動経済学のビジネス分野への応用について議論します。エヴァは新しい日本語版の書籍を出版し、日本の読者へのメッセージを示します。

05:00

🏪 選択のストレスとモロカ書店の成功

第2段落では、選択のストレスとその解決策としてモロカ書店のビジネスモデルが取り上げられています。モロカ書店は一度に一つの商品のみを提供し、選択の負担を軽減することで成功を収めています。エヴァはこのアプローチが人々を助け、選択を容易にすると指摘しています。

10:01

🔍 環境の微妙な変化と行動への影響

第3段落では、小さな環境の変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与える「家蝇効果」について説明されています。エヴァは、小さな刺激が無意識で人々の行動に影響を与えることを強調し、ビジネスにおけるこれらの微妙な影響を考慮するべきだと述べています。

15:02

📈 現在の偏りと長期戦略への影響

第4段落では、ビジネス環境下で現在の偏りがどのように長期戦略に影響を与え、それを緩和する方法について議論されています。エヴァは、ビジネスリーダーが現在進行形の議論に偏りがちであると指摘し、長期的なリスクと戦略に時間を割くことの重要性を説きます。

20:05

🛒 購買行動と習慣の形成

第5段落では、購買行動における習慣の形成と、小さな選択が長期的な健康目標に与える影響について解説されています。エヴァは、習慣化された行動が脳にプログラムされ、自己制御を助けると説明し、小さな善行が大きな変化を生むことを示唆しています。

Keywords

💡行動経済学

行動経済学とは、経済学の一分野で、人々の行動や選択を理解するために心理学的な要素を取り入れる学問です。このビデオでは、行動経済学がビジネスや消費者行動にどのように適用されるかが議論されています。例えば、選択の過多さによるストレスや、小さな環境の変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与えることなどが挙げられます。

💡選択の過多さ

選択の過多さは、消費者が多くの選択肢の中から選ぶことで生じるストレスや不快感を指します。ビデオでは、現代の消費者が選択の過多さに直面している問題と、それが行動経済学でどのように扱われるかが説明されています。

💡環境の変化

環境の変化は、人々の行動に影響を与える小さな要素の変化を指します。ビデオでは、小さな環境の変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与える「家蝇効果」という概念が紹介されており、これは行動経済学の重要な概念の一つです。

💡家蝇効果

家蝇効果は、男性が小便器の近くに絵を描くと正確さを自然と高めるという現象を指します。ビデオでは、このような小さな環境の変化が人々の行動に大きな影響を与えることを示す例として紹介されています。

💡

💡社会規範

社会規範とは、ある社会や文化において共通して守られる行動の基準を指します。ビデオでは、日本における社会規範がどのように行動経済学に影響を与えているかが議論されており、例えば、ペンの選択肢に関する実験などがあります。

💡選択のストレス

選択のストレスは、多くの選択肢の中から選ぶことで生じる心理的な負担を指します。ビデオでは、選択のストレスが人々の選択行動にどのように影響を与え、またそれをどのように軽減できるかが議論されています。

💡広告

広告は、製品やサービスを宣伝するための手段であり、ビデオでは、広告がどのように社会現象として機能し、人々の行動に影響を与えるかが議論されています。特に、屋外広告の効果や、広告が社会的な側面を持つことの重要性が強調されています。

💡バイアス

バイアスとは、人々の判断や選択において、意識していないが根深くある偏りや傾向を指します。ビデオでは、採用プロセスにおけるバイアスや、どのようにバイアスを克服するためには制度的な対策が必要であることが議論されています。

💡透明性

透明性とは、情報やプロセスが明確で公開されている状態を指します。ビデオでは、ビジネスが持つマニュピレーションの透明性について議論されており、それが消費者や社会全体にとって良いものか悪いのかが問われています。

💡習慣

習慣とは、繰り返し行われることで自然と身に付く行動パターンを指します。ビデオでは、習慣が人々の長期的な行動にどのように影響を与え、またどのように習慣を作り上げることによって自己制御を強化できるかが議論されています。

💡現在偏在

現在偏在は、人々の判断や選択において、現在所有しているものや眼前にあるものに過剰に重きを置く傾向を指します。ビデオでは、現在偏在が人々の経済的な選択や生活習慣にどのように影響を与え、どのように対処するかが議論されています。

Highlights

环境的微小变化对我们行为的影响被低估了。

消费者面临的选择过载问题。

人们喜欢有选择，但讨厌做选择。

社会规范对行为的影响及其在日本的体现。

荷兰与日本在社会规范和组织上的差异。

广告的社会现象及其在日本户外广告的先进性。

广告中的“浪费”实际上是有效的传播手段。

Moroka书店的单一产品销售模式及其成功。

选择焦虑和如何通过限制选择来帮助消费者。

行为经济学在日本的普及及其与社会规范的关系。

社会规范对个人选择的影响及其文化差异。

“宽容因素”在不同文化中的差异。

微小环境变化对行为的影响，即“家蝇效应”。

商业环境中对即时满足的过度重视。

如何通过制度设计减少招聘过程中的偏见。

避免即时偏见的方法，如制定长期计划。

如何在日常生活中建立健康习惯以对抗即时偏见。

超市中健康食品的放置对消费者选择的影响。

性别差距问题及其在人力资源管理中的体现。

行为经济学对商业决策和策略的影响。

透明化商业策略是否能够减少消费者被操纵的感觉。

Transcripts

look our our brains have evolved in a

specific people underestimate it how

these small changes in the environment

how much they influence our Behavior I

think uh being overwhelmed by choice is

one of the many problems that consumers

face these days and people have fear of

better options or they just have so we

have this little slogan that we say

people love to have a choice but they

hate making a choice why is it because

we're really well tuned to all these

things we have been

hi for

so Eva and Tim welcome to pivet thank

you thank you so much so Eva you are a

behavior Economist and Tim you are

linguist copywriter and you also found

your own company and you are in the ad

business yes so today we're going to

talk about uh behavioral economics uh

you have your new book uh

congratulations on your new Japanese

Edition thank you so much and so most of

our audience are business uh person

business field so we're going to talk

about the behavior economics and how we

can Implement into the business field uh

first of all is this your first time in

Japan for me it is it is my second

second time what's the impression of

Japan from a behavior Eis Tokyo

specifically uh the enormous amounts of

people that we meet on the street that

we run into uh just the density of

people and the amount of social norms

that is around that sort of that I I

feel they are there but I don't exactly

know what they are so in terms of social

norms I'm I'm yeah flower guested so

there are a lot of hidden rules exactly

yeah and they I'm sure I'll learn but

that takes time is it very different

from maybe the trains or the cities in

Netherlands yes it's much better

organized here better organized yeah in

Amsterdam it's a mess I'd say yes and

here it's very orderly here it's clearly

people are used to so many more people

uh on a very small area how about this

pink Studio do you have that in

Netherlands I haven't seen anything like

it okay how about you Tim how's your

impression on Japan well first of all I

I love it here I think it's a wonderful

country and especially Tokyo is a

wonderful city um from a professional

Viewpoint what I really enjoy is uh the

very Advanced Outdoor Advertising ah um

I think in the Netherlands and uh most

of Europe we've been very much obsessed

with targeting online from the idea that

if you reach someone who is not in the

market for your product and would be

waste I see and but there's also a

school of thought in advertising that

says the waste is the part that works

it's very good to show your message to a

lot of people because advertising is a

social phenomenon it's very important if

I for instance would give you a phone

that you would know the brand also and

that other people would know I'm giving

you a great gift because it's a great

brand right so um I'm really taking that

home with me to tell people in the

Netherlands that we really should focus

on this social side of advertising what

do you mean by S do you see ads in like

trains or in taxi or in the streets in

the buildings yes exactly you don't have

that in the amount of noise that comes

with is for me also very new yeah and

noise is of course something you can't

uh put away you can look away from an ad

but the the noise is still there yeah

don't you think it's too noisy because

Netherlands it's very clean very oh no

we love it we love it we love it okay

yes we become very quiet when it's noisy

around us and just enjoy it alling no

ads here okay so in your book you have a

Japanese preface and you make a lot of

relevance for the Japanese audience and

readers and I heard you like moroka

bookstore in

G uh well I think uh being overwhelmed

by choice is one of the many problems

that consumers face these days and

people have fear of better options or

they just have uh uh Choice anxiety so

we have this little slogan that we say

people love to have a choice but they

hate making a choice and I think it's

really clever uh that the store shows uh

or Mr Moka shows that um you can

actually just offer one product and be

successful not just as as a little stunt

but actually have a company that just

sells one product at a time help people

out make a decision for them make life

easier for them um and I visited the

store it was very nice to to see it for

real after writing about it on the other

side of the world so they only have one

Title One book per week or per month or

something carefully curated and then the

next week they sell one title again so

that's uh and it's it's a viable

business model that's the interesting

part about it yes I would love to see

fast fashion move in that

direction only one t-shirt only one

jacket that's great so uh before uh

going deep into this book I have this

question I want to ask both of you so

behavioral economics is very popular in

Japan but at the the same time like Eva

said there's kind of social norms that

are very different from the

International Community do you think

there's a Japanese version of behavior

economics or is it a universal thing so

of course our our brains all very much

look alike right uh so I don't think

there's a specific um uh variety or a

special kind of uh uh of Behavioral

economics it's all about how our brains

interact with the environment but the

environment here is very different inde

uh I know of a couple of studies that

are specifically that's more like social

psychology than behavioral economics

they're really targeted to uh detecting

these social norms so things like which

pen would you choose from a from two

colors say there's 19 blue pens and one

red one then a Dutch person would yeah

what would you take probably the single

one the the red one whereas a Japanese

person would rather leave that option

for people after them and choose a blue

one and so there are these kind of

things that are specifically influenced

by social norms on the other hand I

think we if we would stay a couple of

weeks longer we'd do much better in

terms of social norms here it's easy to

learn right how about you Tim um yes I

think as as AA says behavior is always

the product of your personality and and

the environment um so I think people

will uh will often do what they think

the social Norm is uh and if the social

Norm is a little bit different they will

behave a little bit differently but the

principle is the same they're still

looking for the uh the social Norm I

think one thing is that's interesting is

the fudge factor a so when you encounter

a social Norm there's also a second Norm

that tells you uh how much you may

deviate from that Norm and I think in

the Netherlands we have a very large

fudge Factor so it's not okay to behave

in a certain way but we also know that

we can get away with it and I think

maybe in Japan there's a smaller fudge

Factor when when something is a norm

you're it's not okay not interesting MH

yes yeah do you agree yeah I do from

this first week I don't know what the

literature there yes definitely less

wiggle room ah is it like system one

system to like you mentioned the book

there there's different version of

behavior in maybe the Japanese minds or

no I think it differs per um what's that

uh per area of the social domain

maybe on the streets the behavior that

we encounter now most often it is very

tight like where to walk uh not to eat

on Metro lines these kind of things uh I

think in other areas it's very very

different okay interesting yes so let's

go uh deep diap into the book and uh I

would like you to give some examples and

if I notice something different for a

Japanese context I'll interrupt you and

start the discussion so uh I noticed

there's a kind of fly stopping on the

title I thought this was like a ink mess

but it's not it's a fly and you

mentioned about uh the concept of the

house fly effect uh could you elaborate

on

that yes well it was inspired by

something that I haven't seen yet in

Japan which is a little house fly that's

painted in urinal we have that in our

bathroom in it's a blue blue circle yes

oh a blue circle yeah and like a red eye

or something a bull eye yes and it's

it's a little bit of a dirty example but

we liked it because it's very famous

because well it solves the problem that

men need to aim well to keep the floor

clean yes and um if you ask men why that

is they can't really tell you so it's it

like you said that's system one reaction

it just happens Behavior just happens to

us but then we were also thinking about

the butterfly effect how very small

thing can have a very large uh impact so

basically the housefly effect is our

version of the butterfly effect and

luckily it's a little bit more

predictable MH yeah but still it has the

same people underestimated how these

small changes in your environment how

much they influence our Behavior Uh

these tiny invisible little thingies yes

so why is that because um you know

historically speaking people are

convinced by Logic and emotions but in

your book you are arguing that even

that's a small thing like a housefly

effect it matters a lot why is that yeah

why is it because we're really well

tuned to all these things we have

been uh look our our brains have evolved

in a specific context and there things

like the the order of certain um things

passing by or things like um cues that

others are giving about what is allowed

and what is not they have been very very

important of course so we're just very

well tuned to these kind of things to

environmental things that are not very

well deliberated

conscious so then the strange thing is

we all recognize that we are very much

uh susceptible to these effects but then

in a business context we tend to forget

them and say well we just need to give

logical arguments why our product is the

best and then people will buy it and if

they don't want to buy it we'll explain

it again rather than using all these

little effects so in a business context

we all try to be very rational and also

try to treat consumers as if they're

very rational well we know they're not

but we still have figure out how to deal

with it why are we tweeting the consum

very National even there there's tons of

studies that say we are

not um well I think for irrational

reasons because okay because we feel a

little bit more professional and

rational ourselves when we approach it

like that and it feel there's a specific

effect that when you're explaining why

something is a great idea to someone

else that you start to believe in it

even more yourself so there's this

explaining effect and we have that as uh

business people right I have that too I

feel like I should explain why the book

is useful or so but no actually you want

the customer to explain it to you why

it's so useful and also companies are

run by uh more people who have more

rational type jobs yes because uh the

creative will still have to show his

work to the accountant but the

accountant doesn't have to show his work

to the creative to get it approved would

be an interesting world if you had to

but yes that is a good point so from uh

business uh perspective are there any

studies you found from a behavioral

economics point that you know how it

plays a role in business settings any

other examples other than the housefly

effect in business settings yeah tons of

examples of course hard to to choose one

um I so what I hear from um

Business Leaders is that they're often

uh during meetings so especially in a

social professional context that present

by is is a very big thing so the the

idea that we're very much focus on

what's at the table right now instead of

thinking about future strategic plans

and there are of course ways to to sort

of mitigate that uh like yeah it's the

same as uh if you don't want to be

influenced by marketing tricks while

you're running your groceries um just

doing shopping well what you do is you

make a list of what you should be doing

and it sounds very obvious but I think

many uh management meetings would

benefit from allocating a specific

amount of time to long-term risks and

strategy so say the final 50 minutes or

the first 50 minutes of a meeting should

be about things that will happen only in

a couple of years ah so really allocate

uh time and moments for that uh would be

one of the ways to mitigate that but

then there's also things like in the in

the hiring process uh of people we know

there's lots of biases at play where we

tend to choose people that look like us

and even professional HR uh people do so

we know that they know that but it's

very hard to just by by

motivation get across that intention

action Gap so in order to to get a more

equal uh employee setup you really have

to think about what institutions are in

place so for instance it doesn't help

much

to um give people a training on how

biased they are in choosing new

employees I see because that will only

reinforce the bias that we have because

then we hear oh the boss also thinks

women should do this and men should do

that or so what what rather helps is

just really looking at the data at the

HR analytics and check checking where

the gaps are so check at what stage is

it at the hiring stage is at the

promotional stage at the payment gaps

whatever where are the gaps that uh we

could we would need to counterbalance by

for instance leaving vacancies open for

a longer time because we know from

literature that women take a bit longer

to start applying to a new job for

instance so these ciments are very small

things would help to to counteract

biases in the hiring process right um I

want to ask the HR because we have a

huge gender gap in Japan but before that

uh for our audience could you explain a

little more about the present effect

because is it similar to when we go to a

supermarket and we see a cash register

and there are suits we pick that suits

up is that the same that's a beautiful

examp I'm so tempted here in

Japan yes did you go to any convenience

stores in Japan oh yes okay so you know

what time I'm talking about very much so

yeah you don't want to see my ly okay so

could you explain to audience what the

present effect and how it's affecting

our lives yeah it's um so there's lots

of present effects all different kinds

in taste but the the major thing is that

we tend to

overweigh the the the amount of utility

uh economic speak the amount of pleasure

we get from things that are now in our

view basically so it's hard to if you

need to choose between uh say uh 100 yen

now or 102 yen in a couple of hours we

we rather go for now a bit less whereas

if you would ask the same question to me

now for myself in a week we would think

well it's only one hour difference give

me the higher amount so we really if

we're asked to make a decision on the

spot and and way to um to offers or to

options then we always go for the one

that gives us the most pleasure right

now and that is what what causes all

these present biases and we

underestimate actually so if I were ask

if I would give uh have $100 today or

$120 like in a week one a month I choose

the 100 because it's I can get it 100

now exactly if you would if you would

ask that now yeah you would choose the

so uh so my question is why is that and

can we overcome that our human behavior

if we learn behavioral

economics so that is really what the

book is about um uh it's it's very tough

because what we argue is that that

motivation alone is not enough our our

free will or our what is it our

willpower is really hardly enough to uh

go against all the Seductions in a

convenience store so it's just too many

and also of course the businesses that

put the Suites at the counter know much

better that our willpower is not that

high we overestimate it they don't right

at the same time once you accept that

that fact you can uh for instance the

best way to not drink alcohol is not to

go to a bar not to go to that's a good

advice avoid so you can avoid it and if

you know that your business uh decisions

are very much influenced by watching a a

dashboard and and that makes you very

much focused on the short term and

you're just trying to get online

engagement when you know that long time

is more important just don't look at the

at the dashboard and if you don't want

to buy impulse buys at uh at the grocery

store well don't go to the the grocery

store every day but make a list and go

there once a week so once we accept the

fact that we are very susceptible to

these housefly effects we can change our

own behavior to just make sure that we

don't see them as often and there's also

technological uh help for that right I I

installed on my computer all these

things that keep me from distracting

apps for a couple of business hours

because I know I'm just I'm I'm yeah

going down the rabbit hole right so I

know how to tie my hands at certain

times and I think that is our system

that really knows how to um yeah keep

ourselves in check and that we should uh

put in use for the long term so that in

the short term we aren't overcome by uh

yeah things that draw our attention so

it's a excellent advice but however um

we are making thousands of decisions

every day maybe you mentioned that in

the book maybe

300 decision per day on food alone yes I

think it's r so even if we ignore the

bar we might enter a convenience store

and buy some snacks so how can you stay

alert for 24 hours every day um well you

can't but you can buy uh so you can

build your own little routines ah

routines because we are we are creatures

of habit so if you if you build for

instance the habit of going shopping for

food once a week with a grocery list and

once it becomes your habit your brain

stops thinking about it and it just goes

on that that automatic system one and

then you have sort of programmed system

want to do that for you uh so you can

build healthy habits yes it's also in

that especially in that domain but also

in other domains um it's very important

to uh sort of have goals that you can

trace or track so you don't want to say

I want to be healthy next year you want

to say I'm going to go to the gym every

Tuesday night at then and then with that

friend of mine who's going to keep me to

the promise so make it very clear think

about what might happen to you on the

way you might b a bar with another

friend but no you have to you promise

your friend to go to the gym together so

you have to go there so you really have

to uh make it manageable I think and one

thing to look out for is doing little

things that make you feel good about

yourself so for instance eating a little

I I had this um Burger uh Burger and

Fries meal and there were was a little

bit of lettuce there okay and my

daughter said why do they add a little

bit of lettuce I said to make a few

better about the burgers okay okay

eating a healthy food yes and that

that's what happens when you start

grocery shopping you put some healthy

items in your basket after that you can

buy everything you want because you're

healthy already and that also goes for

taking a little walk or maybe even

sometimes the advice is it's it's enough

to take the stairs rather than the

elevator but if that makes you feel like

you don't need to go to the gym anymore

so you have to watch out for the little

things that make you feel like it's it's

check in the box I don't have to do

anything anymore is that's why in your

book uh mentioned about Supermarket they

have all the organic healthy foods right

at the start yes could you elab because

then then your brain is sort of

calculating an aage how how healthy are

my groceries so when you start out with

something very healthy in your in your

bag then you can add all the all the

candy you like and it's still a healthy

aage so you are from the ad so you're

the business person so do you think

that's a bad thing where it's it's

something that add people are trying

hard so is it an evil thing to put

organic stuff um I don't know I spoke to

a couple of people from supermarkets who

who said well we just experimented with

where to put it when we put it there

people started buying more so so it was

they didn't have to they invented this

before behavioral economic became a

subject so a lot of the it was um yeah

and once they all do it it's very hard

to stop I I do think they should give

you the option to enter at the cash

register Ah that's a good idea so you

can just put the C candy in your bag

right away get it over with maybe that's

that good idea but but then you have

like maybe 20 minutes to think about do

I really want this candy ah so you

have we need an offload station at the

end offload station that's a wonderful

idea oh actually I think we can sell

this WOW let's go back to the HR issue

because in Japan um we have a huge

gender gap but however I talked to a lot

of HR people in Japan they're they're

not they're saying that well we're just

doing Fair we don't have pre we're not

misogynist we're just acting on own and

it's just natural to have more men in

the work field but do you think there's

a kind of hidden rule or from a point of

a behavioral economics on that situation

I think there's so from a behavioral

perspective there's tipping points so

here I I wonder whether we'll get there

with with changing selection procedures

do you think that uh business should be

transparent of their tricks especially

the government because um yeah

being manipulated this is a behavior

economics trick or something the funny

tragic scary I don't know thing is that

even when you are transparent about it

it still works it still works okay