The DISASTEROUS Imperfect Preservation Of The Quran [Debate] | Sam Shamoun
Summary
TLDRThe transcript is a discussion centered around the Quran and the Bible, highlighting differences in belief systems regarding the preservation of religious texts. The speaker challenges the idea that the Bible was corrupted after Prophet Muhammad, questioning the logic of assuming the Quran's authenticity based on circular reasoning. They also delve into Islamic traditions, particularly the 'seven modes' (Ahruf) of the Quran, emphasizing the uncertainty around their meaning and raising concerns about variant readings in both the Quran and Bible, questioning the consistency of the arguments on religious preservation.
Takeaways
- 📖 The speaker reflects on their initial belief that the Bible must have been corrupted after Muhammad's time due to the teachings of the Quran.
- 🔄 The speaker points out the circular reasoning involved in assuming Muhammad is a prophet and therefore the Bible must have been altered if it contradicts the Quran.
- 📜 The Quran instructs Muhammad to confirm the scriptures of the Jews and Christians, which still exist in the same form today, as evidenced by manuscripts.
- 📚 The speaker hadn't previously researched manuscript evidence or carbon dating when they were questioning these religious beliefs.
- 📓 A book titled 'The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran' is recommended for studying Quranic variations and the history of its transmission.
- 🧩 The speaker highlights that the Quran has many variant readings, some of which are even acknowledged by Islamic scholars, raising questions about its textual integrity.
- ❓ There is uncertainty and mystery surrounding the exact meaning of the term 'Saba' (seven modes) in Islamic tradition, which is linked to variant Quranic readings.
- 🕵️♂️ Islamic scholars agree that the 'Saba' are not the seven canonical readings of the Quran, which were canonized much later.
- ⚖️ The speaker draws a comparison between the way the Quran’s variations are viewed and how the Gospel of John would be viewed if it had undergone similar textual changes.
- 🗣️ The speaker concludes by reflecting on how the Quran is often regarded as miraculous despite the documented variations in its text.
Q & A
What belief did the speaker initially hold about the Bible and the Quran?
-The speaker believed that the Bible must have been corrupted after the Prophet Muhammad because the Quran is considered 100% God's word without human intervention.
What is 'circular reasoning' as discussed in the transcript?
-Circular reasoning is assuming a conclusion to be true and using it to validate the same conclusion. In the context of the transcript, it refers to assuming Muhammad is a prophet and therefore, if the Bible contradicts the Quran, the Bible must have been corrupted.
Why does the speaker reject the idea that the Quran is wrong about previous scriptures?
-The speaker believes the Quran is 100% from God, and thus cannot be wrong about anything, including its descriptions of previous scriptures like the Torah and the Gospel.
What challenge does the other speaker present regarding pre-Muhammad Bible manuscripts?
-The challenge presented is that there are Bible manuscripts from before the time of Muhammad that are identical to what we have today, questioning the claim that the Bible was corrupted after Muhammad.
What is the 'Saba El AG' or 'Ahruf' in the Quranic tradition?
-The 'Saba El AG' or 'Ahruf' refers to the seven modes in which the Quran was revealed. However, there is uncertainty regarding the exact meaning of 'Ahruf,' and no clear explanation has been provided by Muslim scholars.
What is the significance of 'variant readings' in the Quran?
-Variant readings refer to differences in the transmission of the Quranic text. The speaker discusses how the Quran has thousands of variant readings and was standardized through a process involving the destruction of other versions, raising questions about its preservation.
How does the speaker relate the Quran's preservation to criticisms of the Bible's transmission?
-The speaker draws a parallel by saying that if Muslims criticize the Bible for having different versions or manuscripts, they should apply the same logic to the Quran, which also has variant readings and went through a process of standardization.
What is the Hadith's role in understanding the Quranic 'Ahruf'?
-The Hadith provides prophetic traditions about the Quran's 'Ahruf,' but even these traditions do not clarify the exact meaning of the term. Scholars are still uncertain about what 'Ahruf' refers to.
What hypothetical situation does the speaker present regarding the Gospel of John?
-The speaker imagines a scenario where the Gospel of John was revealed in seven modes, but no one knows what they are, and one of John's companions destroyed all but one. This scenario is meant to parallel the Quran's situation to show how strange it would sound if applied to the Bible.
What is the speaker’s conclusion regarding the Quran and the Bible?
-The speaker concludes that if the Quran has the same issues of variant readings and destruction of other versions as the Bible, Muslims should apply the same criticism to the Quran as they do to the Bible, raising questions about its preservation and authenticity.
Outlines
🤔 Questioning the Validity of the Bible and Quran
The speaker begins by explaining how they were forced to believe that the Bible was corrupted after the coming of Muhammad, due to the revelations in the Quran. They discuss the Quran's acknowledgment of previous scriptures, including the Torah and the Gospel, and how Muhammad was asked to confirm prophecies within them. However, the speaker points out circular reasoning in assuming Muhammad's prophethood and concludes that if the Bible contradicts the Quran, it must have been altered after Muhammad. This leads to the question of why the speaker didn’t consider the opposite — that the Quran may not align with earlier scriptures because it could be incorrect.
💡 Exploring Faith in the Quran's Divine Origin
The speaker continues by explaining their unwavering belief that the Quran is 100% God's word and contains no human intervention, which made it difficult for them to accept that the Quran might be wrong about God or the scriptures. They further discuss the contradiction between the Quran confirming earlier Jewish and Christian scriptures while at the same time contradicting them. This is likened to Joseph Smith of the Mormon tradition, hinting at the possibility that Muhammad could be considered a fraud if his message contradicts the scriptures he was supposed to confirm.
📜 Manuscripts and the Quran's Authenticity
The speaker acknowledges their lack of deep research into biblical manuscripts or how they were dated at the time they questioned the Bible's integrity. They reference a book called 'The Transmission of the Variant Readings of the Quran' by Shadi Hakim to highlight that even the Quran has variant readings and potential corruptions. The book documents Islamic traditions and Quranic manuscripts, showing that there is no standard Arabic text of the Quran. The speaker uses this to question whether the same scrutiny applied to the Bible should also apply to the Quran.
🤯 The Seven Modes of the Quran and Their Ambiguity
The speaker discusses the concept of the Quran being revealed in seven different modes (known as 'ahruf'), which is still not fully understood by scholars. They refer to Muslim sources that agree on the existence of these modes but admit that no one knows exactly what they are. They further explain how the various readings of the Quran were canonized centuries after Muhammad, leading to confusion about the true form of the Quran. The speaker contrasts this with how people would react if a similar claim were made about the Gospel of John and how Christians would be ridiculed for believing in such an unclear transmission process.
🧐 Comparing Scriptural Transmission and Beliefs
In this final section, the speaker emphasizes the absurdity of believing in a religious text that has undergone such unclear transmission, using an analogy about the Gospel of John being revealed in seven modes, similar to the Quran. They argue that if Christians were to claim something like this, people would find it laughable. However, with the Quran, Muslims view it as a miracle despite its transmission involving multiple variant readings and canonization centuries after Muhammad. The speaker finds it interesting how the Quran is treated differently in this regard.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Quran
💡Bible
💡Muhammad
💡Prophecy
💡Corruption of the Bible
💡Variant Readings of the Quran
💡Ahruf and Qira'at
💡Uthmanic Codex
💡Manuscript Evidence
💡Circular Reasoning
Highlights
The speaker addresses the assumption that Muhammad is a prophet and the resulting claim that if the Bible contradicts the Quran, the Bible must have been corrupted.
A key point is raised regarding the Quran’s instruction for Muhammad to follow or confirm the scriptures of Jews and Christians, implying their scriptures were unchanged during his time.
The speaker challenges the assumption that the Bible was corrupted after Muhammad, questioning why it’s not assumed that Muhammad was wrong if the Quran contradicts earlier scriptures.
The Quran confirms that Allah sent the Torah and Gospel, and Muhammad asked the Jews to confirm his prophethood based on their scriptures.
The speaker raises a historical argument that manuscripts of the Bible from before Muhammad’s time are identical to what exists today, challenging the claim of corruption.
The discussion shifts to the speaker’s past belief in the Quran as 100% the word of God, without human intervention, which prevented him from questioning its claims.
The concept of circular reasoning is highlighted: assuming the Quran is correct and the Bible is corrupted based on that assumption without examining historical evidence.
The speaker introduces Shadi Hakimat Nassar’s PhD dissertation on the transmission of variant readings of the Quran, suggesting the Quran itself has been subject to corruption.
Muslim scholars have identified thousands of variant readings in Quranic manuscripts, raising questions about the Quran’s preservation.
The speaker discusses the Islamic tradition of the 'Saba ahruf' (seven modes of recitation), noting that no clear understanding of what this term means has been established.
Muslim scholars unanimously agree that the 'Saba ahruf' are not the same as the seven canonical Quranic readings, which were canonized 300 years after Muhammad.
The notion of the 'Saba ahruf' remains vague, and no accurate translation of the term exists, creating a mystery around early Quranic recitation.
The speaker draws a comparison between the Quran’s variant readings and the Gospel of John, using a hypothetical scenario to show the inconsistency in applying preservation standards.
Uthman, a companion of Muhammad, standardized one mode of the Quran by destroying other versions, creating a single codex which still resulted in multiple variant readings.
The speaker suggests that if Christians had done something similar with the Bible, Muslims would find it laughable, yet many Muslims accept this practice with the Quran as miraculous.
Transcripts
but I was um like I was forced to take
the belief that um like the Bible had to
have been corrupted after Muhammad
because of the because of the
revelations of the Quran that Allah sent
um the Torah and the gospel and Allah
um even asked them
um even as the prophet Muhammad to like
go go to the Jews to confirm that he is
indeed a prophet and that there are
Prophecies of him in the in the Torah
but did you catch it that you're doing
what's known as circular reasoning you
assume Muhammad is a prophet therefore
if my Bible contradicts the Quran that
means the Bible has changed after
Muhammad why did you assume that why
didn't you assume the opposite since the
Quran tells Muhammad to follow the
scripture or confirm the scripture that
the Jews and Christians had in their
possession and the manuscript evidence
shows that the only scriptures they have
is what we have today because your Bible
is translated from those manuscripts
then Muhammad is a frog why did this is
the reverse
um because
um I was like I believe that the Quran
was uh 100 God's word that um there's no
human like intervention and in any way
that it's 100 from God and so it cannot
be wrong about what it says about
um who God is and you know like um and
like um what the scriptures are what if
the Quran tells you one of the signs
that Muhammad is a prophet or not is
that he confirms the scriptures of the
Jews and Christians and then you go to
the Jews and Christians and see their
scriptures and he can contradicts them
that means he's a fraud it's like Joseph
Smith
yeah that's why I said the but that's
why I said the Torah had to have been
corrupted after like um Prophet Muhammad
yeah so what do you do with the fact you
have manuscripts before the time of
Muhammad that are identical to what we
have today
for example um I haven't I I and like um
during that time when I was questioning
this um I didn't really look um that
deep into like um manuscripts and how
they did um carbon dating and how they
how they dated this manuscripts so I
just um I just put it in the back of my
mind and didn't really take much of it
you see this book that I'm holding up
right here yeah okay if you can afford
it get it it's called the transmission
of the variant readings of the Quran
this is why a Muslim this is his PhD
dissertation by Shadi hakimat NASA he he
surveys the Islamic traditions and The
Chronic manuscripts and he shows from
the Islamic Traditions bukhari Muslim
other sources and your chronic
manuscripts your Quran has thousands of
variant readings and Corruptions you
don't have a standard Arabic text so if
you use your argument against the Bible
consistently should you now reject the
Quran I mean I'm going to be doing a
session on this and quoting his
referencing Muslim sources for example
here let me just show you something what
he says here and we're going to get back
to the point of Jesus's deity but have
you heard of the Saba El AG
I have our time with the H in Arabic so
forgive me According to Islamic
tradition the Quran supposedly was
revealed revealed in seven what they
call
that's the plural of half to this day no
muslim knows what Muhammad meant what
did he mean by a roof let me read it to
you 15 to 17 of the book right here and
this is all from Muslim sources
Scholars here but let me stream stuff
that Muslim Scholars know but they will
deceive you here you go here's its
subtitle so you know and I even
underlined it I don't know if you can
see it it's you see anyway you see that
it says
the seven modes right
yeah okay now let me read the only
legitimacy for the existence of variant
breedings of the Quran is the prophetic
tradition which speaks of the Sabbath
there exists a huge uncertainty
regarding the term
an uncertainty that sometimes amounts to
a mystery until now until now no
reasonable explanation has been offered
for the exact meaning of the Sabbath
enumerates 35 different interpretations
of the Sabbath tradition ranging from
linguistic to esoteric interpretations
Muslim Scholars however unanimously
unanimously meaning they all agree that
the Sabbath are not El pirate not the
seven quranic readings that you have
today because today you have what's
known as the perat of the Quran those
are seven different Arabic readings of
the uthmanic texts that have two urawi
two people transmitting it for a total
14 and then they add three others for a
total of ten which were canonized by IBN
mujahid in the 10th Century that's what
Muhammad is 7th Century so about 300
years later but anyway he's saying that
the
kirat of today okay so and they go the
Muslims unanimously agree that the
Sabbath are not
which were collected and canonized by
IBN mujahid the year 936 A.D according
to them only the ignorant masses
of the prophetic tradition to be the
seventh canonical readings this issue
will be discussed in more detail in the
second chapter of this book now since
the notion of the Sabbath was and still
is vague they don't know what it means
an accurate translation of the term is
almost impossible do you hear that uh
yep it's almost impossible to translate
what it means since we actually do not
not know do not know what is meant by
harf we don't know so if I were to tell
you and if I read the Hadith it's going
to get Troublesome but I don't want to
focus on the Quran yet unless you want
me to do but if I were to tell you hey
the Gospel of John was revealed in seven
they'll say it I have our time with the
age so forgive me for that just certain
words I can't pronounce because of my
speech problem okay the Gospel of John
was revealed in seven but we don't know
what those are and then later on one of
John's companions destroyed six of them
and standardized only one of them one
half because that's what uthman did when
he destroyed all the other masaheb the
codices of the Quran it says that he
standardized one half and that one
standardization by companion of John
it's come down to us through multiple
variant readings of that one and then
300 years later some Christian decided
to standardize seven out of those
multiple ways of reading the Gospel of
John and then some other Scholars added
three to that list what would you say to
a Christian would you laugh at us and
say and you still believe the Bible's
preserved um yeah probably and yet with
the Quran you say it's a miracle
interesting
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