Jordan Peterson debate on the gender pay gap, campus protests and postmodernism

Summary

In an interview, controversial psychologist Jordan Peterson debates various gender issues with British journalist Cathy Newman. They discuss topics including the gender pay gap, lack of women in top leadership roles, differences between men and women, equality of opportunity versus outcome, compelled speech laws regarding gender pronouns, authoritarian attitudes among some activists, biological influences on social hierarchies, and accusations that Peterson provokes anger in his followers.

Takeaways

• 😊 Peterson says men need to mature and take on more responsibility, which gives meaning and purpose
• 😕 He believes gender equality of outcome is undesirable and won't happen even in progressive Scandinavia
• 🤔 The gender pay gap is not solely due to gender, but partly due to choices and personality traits
• 😏 Successful women often have more stereotypical masculine traits like assertiveness
• 🧐 Hierarchy and status matter biologically even in lobsters, tracked by serotonin levels
• 🤨 Trans activism stems from the same ideology that killed millions under Mao, in Peterson's view
• 😮 As a professor, Peterson would address a trans student by their preferred pronoun
• 😠 He sees himself as a truth teller, not a provocateur trying to stir things up
• 🙂 Peterson believes his writings have helped thousands back from destruction
• 😉 He is willing to defend his views robustly in adversarial interviews

Q & A

What evidence does Dr. Peterson provide to support his claim that personality differences, not gender alone, account for much of the gender pay gap?

Dr. Peterson cites research on the personality trait of agreeableness. Studies show that agreeable people, who tend to be compassionate and polite, get paid less than less agreeable people in the same jobs. Since women on average score higher in agreeableness, this contributes to the gender pay gap.

How does Dr. Peterson respond to the interviewer's question about whether bosses should adopt more 'female' traits like compassion?

Dr. Peterson says it's a reasonable idea for companies to try adopting a more feminine, compassionate orientation. However, he says there's no evidence that those traits actually predict success in the workplace. The market incentivizes intelligence, conscientiousness and toughness.

What does Dr. Peterson mean when he says equality of outcome is undesirable?

He's referring to forcing exactly equal representation of men and women in all occupations. Peterson argues that even in very egalitarian societies like Scandinavia, men and women make different career and family choices, on average. He thinks forcibly equalizing outcomes would require tremendous social pressure.

How does Dr. Peterson counter the argument that language dictating pronoun use should be updated to avoid offending people?

Dr. Peterson emphasizes the importance of freedom of speech to freely discuss controversial ideas, even at the risk of offense. Compelled speech limits thought and discussion needed to arrive at truth and understanding.

Why does Dr. Peterson use lobsters to argue that hierarchy is inevitable in human organizations?

Lobsters' nervous systems run on serotonin like humans' do. Peterson argues this shows hierarchy has evolved across species over hundreds of millions of years, well before human cultural constructs - so it can't be blamed solely on Western patriarchy.

What evidence does Dr. Peterson provide that women are not being excluded from high-level positions purely due to discrimination?

Dr. Peterson argues that very competent, driven women still choose to balance career and family rather than sacrifice everything for advancement. He says rise to elite levels in business requires working extremely long, inflexible hours - so it's less desirable for many women.

How does Dr. Peterson counter the argument that current workplace culture and practices have been defined by men to benefit men?

While acknowledging some bias likely exists, Dr. Peterson emphasizes that the market sets the terms of success. Since market economics rewards competence, intelligence and drive - not gender - changing corporate culture would require competing successfully against existing models.

Why does Dr. Peterson bristle at being compared to provocateurs or extremists?

Dr. Peterson asserts he speaks what he believes is true, not to provoke or stir anger deliberately. He says when listeners find his ideas on topics like gender provocative, it's because the truth challenges dominant narratives.

How does Dr. Peterson counter accusations that he's contributing to societal divides?

Dr. Peterson highlights the many letters he gets from followers saying his writings prevented them from "destruction" and gave them meaning. He implies this redemptive impact outweighs critics offended by his ideas.

Why doesn't Dr. Peterson provide specific examples of abuse against his critics when asked?

It's unclear, but he may not have evidence of systematic, widespread harassment. He dismisses the question by saying critics have only provided "vague accusations" while he has "25,000 letters" of support.