Supercommunicators with journalist Charles Duhigg | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Summary

このスクリプトは、コミュニケーションの重要性と、どのようにして効果的なコミュニケーターになるかについて深く掘り下げています。話者は、本を通じて読者に情報を与えるのではなく、読者と一緒に旅を共有し、結論に達するプロセスに導く方法を好むと語ります。また、コミュニケーションの真の価値は、物語の中間で重要な出来事が起こるという視点も紹介されています。さらに、話者は、自己評価が低かったときに他人とつながり、深く共感することで、より強固なコミュニケーションの絆を築くことができると語ります。また、コミュニケーション能力は学び得られるスキルであり、自己の内面を反映し続けることが肝心だと強調しています。最後に、彼は自分の書籍を通じて、人々が自分自身に真实を語り合うように導き、社会的な対話を通じてより深い相互理解を築くことを目指していると述べています。

Takeaways

• 📚 著者の本はそれぞれ異なっている点が魅力的であり、読者を独自の旅に招待するスタイルが好まれる。
• 🗣️ コミュニケーションのスキルは学び得るものであり、誰もが超コミュニケーターになる可能性がある。
• 🧠 私たちの脳はコミュニケーションのために進化しており、他人とのバイオロジカル接続を確立することが肝要だ。
• 🤝 超コミュニケーターは他人と会話に誘導し、状況に応じて適切な会話を展開する能力を持ち、相手の感情に共感する。
• 🌟 真実性と-authenticity-がコミュニケーションにおいて極めて重要で、偽りは他人にすぐに見抜かれる。
• 📈 成功するためには、会話を的確に進め、相手の感情や状況に応じて適切な対話を提供する必要がある。
• 📉 会話を的外れにしてしまうと、相手との接続が失われる。会話を的確に進めるためには、相手の感情や状況を理解し、それに合わせる必要がある。
• 💡 会話には実用的な会話、感情的な会話、社会的会話など、複数の会話が含まれており、それぞれの会話に応じて適切に対応することが肝要。
• 📝 著者は自分の書く楽しさを再発見し、それを通じて読者にも楽しんでもらいたいと考えている。
• 🌐 著者の希望は、本を通じて人々が自分自身や異なる人々との会話を改善し、より人間的になることができるようになること。
• 🎓 学んだ教訓を振り返り、次に適用する。失敗を恐れずに、経験から学び、コミュニケーション能力を向上させていく。

Q & A

どのような点を作者は自分の本が他とは異なる点として挙げていますか？

作者は自分の本が他とは異なる点として、他の作家たちが同じような本を書くのに対して、自分の本はそれぞれ異なっていることを挙げています。また、読者に対してエキスパートとしてではなく、共に旅をともにしているガイドとして振る舞う姿勢も特徴の一つだと述べています。

物語を伝える際に重要なポイントは何ですか？

物語を伝える際に重要なポイントは物語の冒頭と終わりではなく、中盤です。多くの人が中盤を無視する傾向にあり、重要な出来事が起こる部分なのに注意を払わない傾向があります。

スーパーコミュニケーターとは何ですか？

スーパーコミュニケーターとは、コミュニケーションについて深く考え、他人を会話に招待し、最も不確実な状況下でもつながりを築く能力を持ち、科学者たちが言う「神経の同調」を実現する能力を持つ人々です。

コミュニケーションの目標は何ですか？

コミュニケーションの目標は、自分の考えや感情を相手が理解し、体験できるように伝えることです。そのために、伝える側と受ける側の脳の波動が似合い合いとなって生物学的な接続を形成することが重要です。

ジム・ローラの物語から学べる教訓は何ですか？

ジム・ローラの物語から学べる教訓は、相手の状況に合わせ、自分も同じような感情状態になる「マッチング原則」の大切さです。また、本当の自己をさらけ出し、本物の自己を表現することが信頼とコネクションを築く鍵になることも学べます。

なぜ人々は他人と会話するのが難しく感じるのでしょうか？

人々は他人と会話するのが難しく感じる理由の1つは、現代社会で長い間進化してきた本能的なコミュニケーションスキルを忘れているからです。また、他人と対話するときに必要な真実の共有や感情的なサポートを提供することができないという問題もあります。

コミュニケーションのスキルはどのようにして身につけることができますか？

コミュニケーションのスキルは学び得るものであり、生まれながらにしてスーパーコミュニケーターになることはありません。過去の映像を観ると、Steve JobsやRonald Reaganのように優れたコミュニケーターとされる人々も初めは不器用で、しかし彼らは自己改善のために努力し、学び続けることでスキルを身につけました。

なぜ人々は他人と会話することが重要なのですか？

人々が他人と会話することが重要なのは、コミュニケーションは人間の超能力であり、家族や社会を形成し、種を維持するためです。また、他人と会話することで友情やコミュニティを形成し、相互に危険を監視し合ったり、助け合い合うことができます。

本書を書くことで作者はどのように変わりましたか？

本書を書くことで作者は、より多くの深い質問を投げかけることを学び、人々との会話の中でより深く耳を傾けることになりました。また、会話が何種類かに分かれることを理解し、状況に応じて適切な種類の会話に応じることができました。

作者が書くのが楽しいと感じたのはなぜですか？

作者が書くのが楽しいと感じたのは、自分が書くことで驚くような結果が生まれることであり、それが自分の書くことを愛する原動力を再燃させたからです。また、自分が書くことで他人にインスピレーションを与えることができるという目的を持っていたことも理由です。

本書を読むことで得られるものは何ですか？

本書を読むことで得られるものは、コミュニケーションスキルの向上だけでなく、他人との対話を通じて人間性を深めることができるという視点です。また、異なる人々と対話し、共感し合う方法を学ぶことができ、社会全体のコミュニケーション向上に貢献することができます。

Outlines

00:00

📚 書籍の独自性とコミュニケーションの重要性

第1段落では、著者が本を書く際のアプローチとその意義について語っています。著者は自分の本が他の本と異なる点で魅力的だと述べ、また、読者や聴衆を導くガイドとしての姿勢を強調しています。物語の重要な部分は真ん中であり、多くの人がそれを無視する傾向にあると指摘し、コミュニケーション能力は学び得られるスキルであると結論づける。

05:00

🧠 超コミュニケーターの定義とコミュニケーションの生物学

第2段落では、超コミュニケーターの概念と、コミュニケーションが生物学的な結合を形成する理由について説明しています。コミュニケーションの目標は相手に自分の考えや感情を理解してもらうことであり、そのためには脳波の類似性や神経的な調和（ニューラルエントラインメント）が必要とされています。

10:01

🕵️‍♂️ 諜報員の物語とコミュニケーションの原則

第3段落では、CIA職員のジム・ローラーの経験から学んだコミュニケーションの原則について語ります。ジムは、自分の失敗を認め、諦めることによって、意図しない結果を引き起こしました。それは「マッチング原則」と呼ばれるコミュニケーション手法と、真実を伝えることが重要であることを示しています。

15:02

🗣️ コミュニケーションの種類と深い質問の力

第4段落では、コミュニケーションを改善する方法について説明しています。著者は、深い質問を投げかけることや、会話の種類に応じて適切な対話を求めることに重点を置いています。また、コミュニケーションはスクリプトに縛られることなく、柔軟性が必要であると強調しています。

20:02

🤔 自己反思とコミュニケーションの楽しさ

第5段落では、著者が自分の書くことに対する愛を再発見した瞬間と、それが彼のプロフェッショナルなキャリアに与える影響について話しています。彼は、書くことが楽しいと感じることの重要性と、外部の結果に依存しないで自分の中から楽しむことの大切さを強調しています。

25:05

🤝 対話の楽しさとポジティブな別れ

第6段落では、対話の楽しさと、ポジティブな別れ方について語ります。著者は、コミュニケーションが人間の強みであり、それが私たちが社会を形成し、仲間と結束する能力を与える理由だと結論づけています。また、ポジティブな別れを通じて、リスナーが更なるオプティミスムを感じられるようにと願っています。

Keywords

💡コミュニケーション

コミュニケーションとは、人々の間で情報を共有し、意見や感情を伝え合うプロセスです。ビデオのテーマに関連して、コミュニケーションは人間の超能力であり、家族や社会を形成するのに不可欠です。ビデオでは、コミュニケーションのスキルを身につけることの重要性が強調されており、それが人々が効果的に情報を共有し、他人とつながる能力を高めるための鍵となります。

💡ガイド

ガイドとは、特定の分野で知識や経験を持つ者が、他人を導き、助言や支援を提供する役割を指します。ビデオでは、話者自身がガイドとして、聴衆や読者に情報を提供しながら、彼らが自分の結論に至るプロセスを通じて学ぶことができるようにしています。これは、単に情報を与えるのではなく、共に学び、成長するプロセスに参加することを意味します。

💡物語

物語とは、物語性のある形で情報を伝えることです。ビデオでは、物語を通じて人々に情報を伝えることの重要性が強調されています。特に、物語の中間部分が重要な出来事が起こる場所であり、人々が深く関わるためには、物語を通じて彼らを引き込むことが大切だと話されています。

💡

💡深く問いかけ

深く問いかけとは、人々の価値観、信念、経験について問うことで、より深い対話や理解を促す方法です。ビデオでは、深い質問を通じて人々が自己認識を深め、対話の質を向上させることができると示されています。これは、単に情報交換を超えて、共感や結束を築くプロセスに関与しています。

💡自己启示

自己启示とは、自分自身の感情や考えを他人に開示することで、より真実のままのコミュニケーションを行うことができます。ビデオでは、自己启示が信頼や共感を築くために必要であると示されています。また、自己启示が不足している場合、対話は表面上のものになり、深い結束は形成されません。

💡ネURAL ENTRAINMENT

ネURAL ENTRAINMENTとは、2人の脳波が類似し始め、互いに同期する状態です。ビデオでは、コミュニケーションの最適な状態として、ネURAL ENTRAINMENTが提唱されています。これは、コミュニケーションのバイオロジカル接続を形成し、より深い意味での対話が可能になることを意味します。

💡本物性

本物性とは、人々の行動や発言が真実であり、偽りがない性質を指します。ビデオでは、本物性はコミュニケーションにおいて非常に重要であり、他人があなたと関わることを望むかどうかに影響を与えます。また、本物性がない場合、他人からの信頼を得ることが困難になります。

💡対話の種類

対話の種類とは、対話が持つ異なる目的やスタイルを指します。ビデオでは、実用的な会話、感情的な会話、社会的会話など、異なる種類の対話があることが説明されています。それぞれの対話スタイルは異なる目的を持つため、対話の種類を理解し、それに応じて適切に対応することが重要です。

💡マッチング原則

マッチング原則とは、対話の中で相手の感情や状態に合わせて自分も同じ状態になることで、より深い接続を築くプロセスです。ビデオでは、マッチング原則が相手の失望や恐怖を共有することで、相手が自分を聞くことができるようになる理由として説明されています。

💡楽しむ

楽しむとは、何かを楽しむことによって得られる喜びや満足感を指します。ビデオでは、楽しむことは創造性や意欲を高めるための鍵であり、プロフェッショナルなライターが書く意欲を失ったときにも、楽しむことによってその意欲を取り戻すことができます。また、楽しむことは自分にとって本当に大切なこと、自分が本当に愛する活動を行っているかどうかを示す指標となることができます。

Highlights

The author values the uniqueness of each book, preferring a diverse range of topics rather than writing similar books.

The author aims to guide readers on a journey rather than presenting as an expert with all the answers.

The importance of the middle of a story is emphasized, where much of the significant action occurs, contrary to the focus on just the beginning and end.

The author's approach to writing involves presenting evidence to lead the audience to conclusions, fostering a sense of discovery.

The concept of 'super communicators' is introduced, highlighting the ability to connect with others and make them feel heard.

Communication is presented as a learnable skill, not an innate talent, drawing on evidence from neuroimaging and data analytics.

The author shares a personal anecdote about struggling with communication as a manager and learning from the experience.

The story of Jim Lawler, a CIA officer, demonstrates the power of authenticity and matching the emotional state of the person you're communicating with.

The 'matching principle' is discussed as a key element in effective communication, allowing for deeper connections.

Authenticity in communication is crucial; people can detect inauthenticity, which can hinder connection.

The author's improvement in communication skills post-book writing is attributed to asking deeper questions and listening more closely.

Differentiating between practical, emotional, and social conversations helps in aligning the type of conversation to the situation.

The author suggests labeling the type of conversation to ensure both parties are on the same page and can connect more effectively.

The aspiration for the book 'Super Communicators' is to not only help individuals improve their lives but also to foster a culture of understanding and connecting with diverse perspectives.

The author shares a personal story about writing a piece for the New Yorker that, despite not being popular, brought them immense joy and satisfaction.

The importance of writing for the joy of it and not solely for external validation is emphasized as a key to happiness and fulfillment.

The author discusses the challenge of staying true to one's passion and the strategies to remind oneself of their 'true north' in the face of adversity.

Transcripts

one of the things that I like about you

is your books are different oh thanks

you know it's like sometimes writers

they they're they write like here's a

book and here's another book that's kind

of like the other book you know and I I

like that your books are different I

mean the whole point of I think a good

book and I think it's what what's so

nice about your work as well which is

you're not like I'm the expert let me

tell you you're like I'm on this journey

want to come yeah and that's joyous to

read bringing people on the journey is

actually the most important part of

teaching them the idea yeah right we I

think when people ask me for advice on

storytelling um what I usually say is a

lot of people focus on the beginning and

the end of the story yeah but the middle

is where everything important happens

yeah and a lot of people just skip over

it I I I've always thought of myself I

never want to be perceived as the expert

I want to be perceived as the guide yeah

you know and my when I write and when I

speak I'm very particular that I want to

prevent present enough evidence that my

audience or my reader will come to the

conclusion right before I do so that

when there's no Tada there's no like

wait for it wait for it wait for it look

how smart I am there's none of that what

I want is when I provide this conclusion

I'm like and here it is that the

audience is going yeah yeah that makes

yeah yeah I saw that yeah that seems

inev that means yeah that seems to make

sense y yeah that's what I want their

attitude to be it's kind of like yeah of

course you know and then they carry it

away then they carry it away they

conclusion not mine they just came on

the they came on The Learning Journey

with me it's I wish that there was um

yeah I wish that there was

more one of the reasons I I wrote super

communicators was because I felt like we

were living through this time when

people had forgotten how to communicate

with each other and something else

happened which is that in 2017 um I

guess it was in 2016 the New York Times

made me a manager I went from being a

reporter to a manager and I was terrible

at it like like fantastically bad and I

went into it and I was like oh my God

I'm going to be so good at this like

like I've had bosses my whole life and I

got an MBA from Harvard I was like I'm

gonna I'm gonna kill this and I was ter

like and the thing that would made me

crazy was that I was really good at the

logistics part like I could like plan

everything out and do all the diagrams

it was the communication part that I

sucked at yeah and so badly that like I

would make other people angry without

even understanding why they were angry

and like get frustrated I was terrible

at it and but then also was at the same

time that Trump got elected right and

I'm looking around and I'm thinking like

he's a great communicator he is a very

good communicator but I looked at all

these other people just screaming at

each other right not wanting to have a

dialogue at all

and and what one of the things that I

thought was like we've sort of Forgotten

there's some lessons here that we've

forgotten about how to can we learn is

it learnable absolutely ABS I mean the

evidence is like

like completely clear on this nobody is

born as a great communicator nobody's

born as a super Communicator there is no

personality type that is more likely to

be a super Communicator it's literally

all just learned skills it's fun I've

seen old footage of Steve Jobs and old

footage of Ronald Reagan both considered

great communicators um and they sucked

they're terrible they sucked it's

shocking by any standard they sucked

yeah bumbling incoherent sucked and so

what so what happened there like why

let's take as a given that like actually

our brains have evolved to communicate

right communication is human superpower

that is why we have succeeded as a

species allows us to form families and

societies so so what happened to those

Two Fellas and and a bunch of other

people is that instead of sucking and

being like oh gosh I don't know why that

didn't go well they sat down and they

thought hard about how can I make it go

better and there are these very obvious

lessons that once you start looking for

them are apparent to you and and in the

last decade science has gotten so good

we're kind of living through this golden

age of understanding communication

because of advances in neuroimaging and

data analytics so now it's easier for us

to describe those ideas but the truth of

the matter is all of us are prepared to

be super communicators it's just that

some people don't think about it so

Define super Communicator first of all

let's start there so the best way to is

um if you're having a bad day M and you

know that there's one person if you call

them they're going to make you feel

better MH who is that person my sister

that person for you is a super

communicator and my guess is your sister

is actually a super Communicator to many

people yeah she just knows how to make

you feel listen to she knows what you

need she knows how to like she knows how

to have a conversation you're a super

Communicator right you you establish a

flow with everyone who who comes on your

podcast so a super Communicator is

someone who has thought deeply about how

to communicate and as a result they have

the ability to invite others into the

conversation they have the ability to to

break through and make a connection even

in the most unlikely of situations and

most importantly they have the ability

and they recognize the importance of

achieving what scientists refer to as

neural entrainment right where right now

in this conversation if we had enough

machines we would see that our our

pupils are actually dilating at the same

rate and our heart rates are starting to

match each other and our breath rates

and the electrical impulses on our skin

and most importantly if we could see

inside our brains a deep mirroring it's

a deep mirroring inside our brains we

would see that our brain waves started

to look similar our brain activity

started to look similar that's what

communication bi biological connection

like we have a connection it's literally

biological connection wow that's cool

and if you think about it that makes

sense because the goal of communication

is I have an idea or I have a feeling

and I want you to understand it I want

you to experience it right so if our

brains become aligned you're actually

experiencing what I'm what I'm

describing and vice versa so tell a

story uh of what you consider a great

communicator or what they do so um so

one of the stories from the book um so

so one of the stories from the book is

uh the story about this guy Jim Lawler

who is a CIA officer and he had just

gotten hired as a CI officer and they

send him over to Europe and they were

like go recruit overseas assets right

like go find spies basically get them to

work for the CIA and he's terrible at it

like he like he like he told me all

these stories like he would go to all

these bars and like try and like chat up

at tachet and they'd be like I don't

want anything to do with you there's

this one guy he finally made friends

with this one guy from the Chinese

Embassy and like he takes him to lunch

like seven or eight times and eventually

he's like hey would you consider you

know telling me some of the gossip you

here and I could pay you for that and

the guy says you know actually my family

is very wealthy and they kill people in

my country for doing that let's not meet

again so he's just terrible at this it

didn't even make a real friend no he

didn't even make a real

so he he's at this point when like it's

been a year and basically his bosses are

like we think you're going to get fired

you just you're just bad at this and

this woman comes into town who works for

the foreign Ministry of her home country

back in the Middle East yeah um and he

never told me which country but it it'll

be pretty obvious which one it is and so

he goes and he introduces himself as an

oil Speculator he like bumps into a

restaurant and they develop a

relationship and he's taking her out to

lunch and he's trying to recruit her and

eventually he says like actually I don't

work for an oil company I work for the

CIA you consider helping us out because

she hated what was going on in her home

country it just been taken over by

revolu um uh Islamic revolutionaries and

religious revolutionaries she was a

woman she in approximately 1979 in yeah

exactly exactly you're guessing which

country that is and and she's opposed to

the regime and he's like we're we

believe in the same thing why will you

help us out and she just she starts

crying and she freaks out she's like I

no I'm absolutely not going to do this

I'm going to get killed for even knowing

you so he go go to his bosses and he'

already told them that he was trying to

recruit her and they're like no we told

Washington DC you did this we told

Washington DC you had your first spy if

you don't deliver her you're gonna get

fired and so Jim Jim is like I'm screwed

like he doesn't know what to do and so

he basically asks this woman fattima to

have one more meal with him and he goes

in and he has all these ideas of how to

and like he gets to the meal and he's

like this is just not going to work like

I cannot convince this person to take a

suicidal risk right

so she's in kind of down because she's

about to go back to her home country and

she's kind of disappointed in herself

and and Jim's trying to like cheer her

up and make her feel better and then

after a while like it's just not working

and she's not really like they're not

connecting and when dessert comes he

like he's like I'm GNA be totally honest

with you like I'm about to get fired and

the reason I'm about to get fired is I

am really bad at this job like like

everyone else in my class they had this

like like confidence or this something

that I don't have and I'm not I'm not

even going to try and get you to work

for me I just I you've been honest with

me I want to be honest with you like I

feel terrible about myself like you just

keep on saying you're disappointed in

yourself I I understand that cuz I am so

disappointed in myself I've wanted this

job my whole life yeah and I've screwed

it up and she listens to him and she

starts crying and he reaches over and

he's like I'm sorry I did not mean to

make you cry and she goes no no I think

I can do this

and he's like and he was so freaked out

he was like he actually said wait wait

no no no you don't have to do anything I

don't want you like like he's so

panicked and she goes no no I think you

I think what you said before that we

both want the same thing I think you're

right I I can help you and she goes to a

safe house the next day she gets all

this training and like covert

Communications for the next 20 years

she's the best source in the Middle East

wow and when I asked Jim why and Jim

became one of the best Recruiters in the

CIA he ended up training other officers

how to to do this when I asked him like

what's the secret you train you teach

people what he said

was you have to match people where

they're at yeah Fatima was upset and I

was trying to cheer her up yeah or

Fatima was scared and I was trying to

convince her she shouldn't be scared

yeah once I just gave up and said like

look you're disappointed in yourself and

I'm disappointed in myself like that's

when she could hear me for the first

time yeah and within within the

literature this is known as the matching

principle right the these different

kinds of conversations and that you have

to match the kind of conversation that's

happening in order to

connect but a lot of it comes down to

listening to those instincts that that

probably we evolved over millions of

years that are are sometimes hard to

listen to in contemporary Society but

you know that if somebody is is feeling

something that if you feel it with them

you feel more connected but he was

honest right yes that's a huge part of

it it has to be authentic and that's

part of the problem which is you

know how long can you fake these things

can super communicators fake these

things

not once or twice perhaps but what's

amazing is and again research has shown

this our ability to detect

inauthenticity is like laser sharp there

was actually one of my favorite

experiments is they they um see these

researchers took a bunch of people

friends laughing together

and strangers trying to to pretend like

they're laughing together and they would

play people a half second of the

laughter and ask them which is which and

people could detect it 92% wow we just

know we like so you're right survival

depends on it our survival absolutely

absolutely our ability to form

friendship and community means that I

can trust you to watch for danger while

I'm asleep that's exactly right and and

if by the way you betray me yeah I will

be so much more Angry than if you simply

did the same thing but for benign

reasons it's it's it's an evolution it's

it's grown up as a pro-social Instinct

are you a better Communicator now that

you've written the book oh my gosh so

much better what tell me something tell

me how you showed up in different

circumstances that you show up

differently now so okay so two ways the

first way is I ask just a lot more

questions and I ask what are known as

deep questions and so a deep question is

something they ask someone about their

values or their beliefs or their

experiences and they usually start with

why so it's um and they can be very easy

it can be like oh you're a lawyer like

did you always want to be a lawyer like

why' you go to law school you know what

at what point did you decide that like

the law was the thing for you yeah those

are easy questions to ask but they're

all deep questions because they're

asking someone about their values or

their experiences yeah and so the that's

the first thing I do is that I try and

ask more deep questions and I try and

just listen more closely but then the

second thing is there's this big Insight

that

that we think of a discussion as being

about one thing but actually every

discussion is made up of multiple

conversations and most of them fall into

one or three buckets so's these

practical conversations right we're

making a decision we're fixing a problem

there's emotional conversations where

the goal is not to fix someone's problem

it's simply to share hold space yeah

hold space and then there's social

conversations which is about how do we

relate to other people how do we think

Society sees

us and so I used to come home and I

would have a bad day at work and I would

be complaining to my wife

and she would respond with practical

advice she'd say like look why don't you

take your boss out to lunch and get to

know him a little bit better and instead

of hearing her I would get even more

upset but now I know it's because she

was having a practical conversation and

I was having an emotional conversation

we couldn't connect with each other so

now one of the first things I do is I

try and figure out what kind of

conversation are we having like how do I

match this other person how do I invite

them to match me and sometimes it's as

simple as just saying like my wife says

this all the time like do you want want

me to fix your problem or just listen to

your problem yeah yeah or it can be as

simple as saying like you know we're

going to have a conversation like like

what's important to you out of this

conversation I love the idea of labeling

the conversation I've had it happen

where I was in a bad place and I called

somebody for advice and they started

fixing and I said to them I appreciate

your intention of trying to fix it I

need you to not fix it I need you to

just listen to me so I was able to give

instruction to match me at the time and

they probably appreciated that right

they did yeah and they and I've cauo in

the middle of trying to fix some do you

need me to offer you Solutions now you

know I love this idea of labeling and

it's look everybody can remember three

things they're easy social we're having

fun emotional how you feeling practical

you know do you want to fix something or

do you want to talk about something

intellectual exactly it's they're easy

to understand they're easy to remember

and I love the idea that it's not some

deep internal skill you just have to

make known the thing that's happening so

that we can be on the same wavelength

have that mirroring that's exactly right

and I think that that's what Steve Jobs

and Ronald Reagan and other people do is

they they walk away from a bad

conversation and instead of being like

that was a bad conversation they think

to themselves what did I miss like what

should I look for next time yeah and if

you start paying attention what you

notice is like you're talking to a to a

friend or a colleague and they'll say

something in a practical conversation

right over at work they'll say something

emotional and it's really easy to gloss

over it they'll say like my son just

graduated I'm so proud or I sorry I

didn't reply to your email yesterday was

like a I had something going on and our

instinct is to stay on that practical

track right like but if you say like Ah

that's amazing tell me about your son or

yeah what's what was going on yesterday

is it is it anything that like it's

helpful to talk through yeah that person

all of a sudden we are we are matching

them yeah and they're more willing to

listen to us and more importantly when

we say let's talk through this issue and

then let's get back to the budget of

planning they're going to go there with

you I I love that idea also which is

it's okay to go off script yeah in fact

it's in fact you have to go off script

or or the script hardly even exists it's

a it's it's a falsity that we think that

there's a script that we need to hold

ourselves to yeah that's so good it's so

good I what is your hope for the book I

know it's a I know it's a big question

but

like my hope is that is twofold I'm

hoping that people read this book and

that they get something as powerful from

it that improves their own life that

they can use it and then secondarily

like this is very Grand aspiration but I

hope that I'm part of encouraging a

bigger discussion about how we can as a

nation and as humans yeah have

conversations with people who are

different from us yeah where we where we

do connect yeah right those are the most

if you think about like the origin of

America America was born in conversation

the Constitutional Convention were

people who hated each other yeah having

a a conversation until they had a

constition and our best moments the best

moments for South Africa the best

moments for the UK yeah around the world

our best moments are moments when we

have a hard conversation with someone

whom it is hard to have that

conversation you can't make peace with

your friends yeah yeah exactly can you

tell me a story of something you wrote

an article a project you worked on in

your professional career it doesn't

matter whether it was commercially

successful or not but that you

absolutely loved this project you

absolutely loved this thing and if every

project you ever worked on was like this

one thing you'd be the happiest person

Al life yeah so there's um I I wrote

this piece for the New Yorker about two

years ago about spaxs do you remember

yeah it about this guy chamath pal

palaha um well done yeah thanks I I I

think I got a little bit wrong um I

loved this piece I loved writing this

piece I loved writing about chamat I

loved like it was just so colorful and

fun and I love Finance yeah

nobody read it like it was like one of

these things where like it was like oh

the New York audience is not into

Finance the same way I'm into Finance or

not into this guy who's like bombastic

and weird the way that I am but I was

just so gloriously happy to have written

it I was like if I read this piece I

would read the out of or like if I

bought this I would read the out of

this piece like I love it okay so you've

written some amazing things you want to

pullet or prize what specifically was it

about this one piece that you you light

up when you're thinking about it like it

up when you're talking about it it's a

really good question because one of the

reasons I decided to leave the times was

because that series I wrote about Apple

that won the Pulitzer I couldn't stand

to read it nobody like it was just

boring it was boring to read it wasn't

fun and this piece about chth and spaxs

it was just fun like this guy like he

like drops F Bombs all the time he like

tries to piss off other people because

he thinks it helps him sell things like

he says ridiculous things he he left his

his wife when she had cancer in order to

go marry someone younger like like it's

just this story where you're like this

is ridiculous I cannot believe that this

guy exists it was just so much fun but

you've written fun things before yeah so

what is it about this one that sort of I

don't know you answered this question

very quickly honestly I think it's

because it wasn't popular yeah like it

just it felt like for the first time

it's something I can point to that I'm

like I wrote that for me uhhuh uhhuh and

the thing when you're a professional

writer and you know this is that you

become a professional writer because you

love

writing it's easy to fall out of love

with writing yeah it's it's hard and it

and like you get into this place where

it doesn't feel it doesn't feel the way

it used to feel right it doesn't feel

special

anymore and I had felt that way for a

long time and and then I wrote this

piece and I was like oh yeah this is

what this is what I liked like I I liked

surp I like writing things that surprise

me by what ends end up coming out of my

fingers and it felt like that and

actually what's interesting is literally

the next thing I did is write the

proposal for super communicators like I

was like I was like I was like okay now

I think I'm at a place where I can write

put you in a great state of mind I I

remember what it's like to love writing

yeah tell me an early specific happy

childhood memory something specific that

I can relive with you that's a really

good question I've have a terrible

memory well okay I'll tell you two one

that's happy and one that's not um

when I was a kid I once made this

newsletter about how that I wanted to be

a babysitter so I put together I spent

like three days on this newsletter

advertising myself and it was funny and

it was Ry and it like had like terrible

twos and I thought it was hilarious my

parents thought it was hilarious and

they were like if you put this up

nobody's going to hire you as a babysit

like this is not what they're looking

for but that's one of the first times

that I found that writing just felt so

good then when I was in high school I

became a debater MH and I was so focused

on on winning I would actually wake up

and I would look in the mirror I this is

a crazy thing I would look in the mirror

and I would say you are crap if you do

not win this weekend because I felt like

I needed to like how did that make you

feel it made me feel both bad and good

right it made me feel

like it made me feel like I was pushing

myself as hard as I could push

myself but then when I would lose

tournaments or lose rounds I felt

terrible and to this day I cannot

remember a single round that I won and I

can tell you every single debate round

that I lost like I remember all of them

do you know what's so interesting about

those stories which is when

you make it about something external

when you make it about the

winning um you are not at your best yeah

whereas when you wrote the babysitter

newsletter it was for fun yeah and when

you glow about the the story of of uh of

the CIA uh recruiter you you you you

relate to him in such a way which is

when he made it about winning he

couldn't do it and when you when

you I mean it sounds corny but when you

practice what you preach when you when

you just are yourself and in life for

the fun of it and your curious writer

self who sees the world as this magical

playground and you're not writing for

anyone everything works I absolutely but

and but the question I have and maybe

you have an answer to this is how do we

remind ourselves of that when it's hard

to remember right do you know George

Saunders the St story writer he's a

wonderful person and a wonderful writer

and he said that basically like the

question he asks himself all the time is

he's he knows how good it feels to be

kind he knows how much he likes himself

when he is a kind person MH so why the

hell are there these moments when he's

unkind yeah and I I feel the same way

like how do we remind

ourselves to listen to that internal

voice that tells us this is what you

love this is what how do we how do we

ignore so there's there's there's

multiple answers um and some of them and

and I think you need multiple answers

because they don't they're not all easy

to do at the same time and so you have

multiple Solutions I mean one is to

start with Y which is to have a true

north and then you get to have this

filter going am I doing that so like my

why is to inspire people to do the

things that Inspire them so literally is

this doing that and and I catch myself

like I'm tired I'm grumpy I'm in a

Starbucks I'm not friendly and I say to

myself your entire I literally will

catch myself and say are you inspiring

the Barista no okay well change you're

like you have to do this all the time

you know like that's that is who you are

right and it is the thing that brings

you Joy so do it you idiot you know and

I'll catch myself and I have little

reminders so like I wear the color

orange somewhere on my person almost

always and that is not there for

decoration that is there because it it

stands out it's so damn bright and the

color orange is this color of optimism

just reminds me like maintain this

disposition show up to inspire and I

think your disposition is is really to

be for to encourage people to be

themselves I think that's right and I

think you know I think that's your best

work and when you are your best self is

when you just sort of smile and say I

guess I'm human and just enjoy that I

think that's absolutely true I think

that's a very and and there is this

thing about I find that I am happiest

when I'm

humblest oftentimes because something is

humbled me exactly not by choice right

it's not that like I'm just a humble

human being it's like I just screwed

something up really bad I used to joke

I'm the most humble person I

know I could talk to you forever this

has been so much fun um thanks so much

for coming on I really I really your

work helps us be more human and I really

hope um I really hope everybody uh reads

your book because I think we all need to

be a little more human today well and I

feel very similarly about your work I've

just like I I I didn't from the outside

I assumed that you were a writer like

because it's because I felt like start

with why is so gracefully written um but

I as long as I think there are a large

number of people who are committed to

asking hard questions yeah I think we're

okay thanks so much thanks for having me

oh so good if you enjoyed this podcast

and would like to hear more please

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podcasts and if you'd like even more

optimism check out my website simon.com

for classes videos and more until then

take care of yourself take care of each

other