The rise of populism: Should we be worried? - UpFront
Summary
TLDRThis discussion examines the rise of right-wing populism and its implications. Experts debate if we're entering a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism, fueled by economic recession, identity politics, and fear of 'the other'. They explore the role of media, the potential for illiberal democracy, and the need for a strong, charismatic left-wing populism to counter the right's success.
Takeaways
- π Right-wing populist movements are gaining momentum globally, particularly in Western countries.
- π Brexit and the election of Donald Trump are seen as victories for populist movements.
- π³οΈ The potential for a far-right leader in France, like Marine Le Pen, indicates the spread of populism.
- π€ There is a debate on whether this is a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism and the level of concern it warrants.
- π Populist movements are not new but are being amplified by modern communication methods like social media.
- π’ Charismatic leaders with a strong narrative can tap into people's fears and desires, making them appealing.
- π Economic recession and the perception of being 'left behind' by globalization contribute to the rise of populism.
- π The media is struggling with how to cover populist leaders, often inadvertently bolstering their anti-establishment image.
- π« Populist movements often leverage identity politics and fear of 'the other', such as immigrants or Islam.
- π± There is a need for a more positive form of populism that can channel public anger and frustration productively.
Q & A
What is the main concern regarding the rise of right-wing populism?
-The main concern is that it could lead to a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism, potentially producing leaders who undermine democratic norms and values.
How does the panel describe the current political climate as it relates to populism?
-The panel describes the current political climate as a new era marked by a series of crisis narratives fed by the new right, disaffection with existing party structures, and a yearning for strong leadership.
What role does social media play in the rise of populism according to the discussion?
-Social media is seen as a significant factor in amplifying populist movements by allowing for direct communication with the public, bypassing traditional media, and creating an 'us versus them' mentality.
What does the panel identify as a common thread among various populist movements?
-A common thread identified is the creation of borders between identities, an 'Us versus Them' dynamic, and a reaction to the perceived failures of globalization and traditional party politics.
How does the panel view the impact of economic factors on the rise of populism?
-Economic factors, such as those affected by globalization and recession, are seen as contributing to the rise of populism by creating a sense of being 'left behind' and a desire for change.
What does the panel suggest about the role of the media in the rise of populist movements?
-The media is seen as both contributing to and struggling to respond to populist movements. It is criticized for being part of the 'elite' that populists rail against, but also for having been complicit in their rise through sensationalist coverage.
What historical parallels does the panel draw with the current rise of populism?
-The panel draws parallels with the 1930s and the rise of fascism, noting the dangers of charismatic leaders tapping into societal fears and anxieties, and the potential for a new authoritarian era.
How does the panel discuss the concept of 'illiberal democracy'?
-Illiberal democracy is discussed as a situation where leaders come to power democratically but do not uphold liberal values such as personal freedoms and minority rights, potentially leading to a transformation of the state that is unrecognizable.
What does the panel suggest as a way for the left to counter right-wing populism?
-The panel suggests that the left should tap into the same populist anger but base it on facts and positive messaging, contrasting with the 'politics of hate' often seen on the right.
How does the panel view the future of populism?
-The panel sees populism as a long-term phenomenon that has always been present but is currently amplified. They express optimism about democracy's resilience, suggesting that societies can adapt and overcome these challenges.
What does the panel believe is necessary for combating the rise of populism?
-The panel believes that a combination of a strong response from the left, media self-reflection, and a public that is aware and engaged in defending democratic values is necessary to combat the rise of populism.
Outlines
π Rise of Right-Wing Populism
The paragraph discusses the growing influence of right-wing populist movements and politicians, particularly in Western countries. It highlights the victories of Brexit in the UK and Donald Trump's election in the US, and speculates on the potential for a similar outcome in the French presidential election. The conversation involves experts from various fields who express concerns about the potential emergence of a new nationalist or authoritarian era. The discussion points to a sense of crisis, disaffection with traditional party structures, and a desire for strong leadership as drivers of this trend.
π³οΈ Populist Movements and Identity Politics
This section delves into the nature of populism, with a focus on its historical context and its current manifestations. The guests discuss how populism is not a new phenomenon but is being amplified by modern communication methods, such as social media. The conversation also touches on the differences between the populist movements in various countries, emphasizing the importance of considering national singularities. The panelists agree that while populism can be found on both the left and right of the political spectrum, it is currently more visibly influential on the right.
π Economic and Identity Drivers of Populism
The discussion in this paragraph explores the dual roles of economic and identity politics in fueling the rise of populism. The panelists argue that while there is a mix of factors driving populism, including those left behind by globalization and concerns about immigration and Islam, it is the combination of these factors that is particularly potent. The conversation also addresses the role of the media in shaping public opinion and the challenges it faces in covering populist leaders.
π’ Media and the Populist Challenge
This section focuses on the media's response to populist movements and leaders. The guests discuss how the media has struggled to cover figures like Donald Trump, often amplifying their messages rather than effectively challenging them. There is a call for a reevaluation of journalistic practices, with an emphasis on the need for a more substantive and less sensationalist approach to reporting. The conversation also touches on the potential for a more positive form of populism that could harness the public's anger and frustration in a constructive way.
π The Future of Populism
The final paragraph of the script addresses the future of populism and the potential for a shift in public sentiment. The panelists express optimism about the resilience of democracy, despite the current populist wave. They suggest that the pendulum of public opinion can swing back, as evidenced by the election of Barack Obama following a period of conservative leadership. The conversation concludes with a call for vigilance and a commitment to defending democratic values.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Right-wing populism
π‘Brexit
π‘Marine Le Pen
π‘Identity politics
π‘Globalization
π‘Cultural backlash
π‘Economic recession
π‘Social media
π‘Illiberal democracy
π‘Elites
Highlights
Right-wing populists are gaining momentum globally, with significant victories in Brexit and the US presidential election.
There is a potential for the French presidency to be captured by a populist leader, Marine Le Pen.
The Pope has expressed concerns about the rise of populist movements, fearing a new Hitler.
Populist movements are driven by disaffection with existing party structures and a yearning for strong leadership.
Populism is not new but is being amplified by modern communication methods, particularly social media.
Populist leaders create 'us versus them' narratives, often targeting immigrants and elites.
The rise of populism is linked to economic recession and a perceived failure of center-left or center-right politics.
There is a growing fear of Islam and Muslim immigration among certain populist groups.
Populist movements are driven by a mix of identity politics and economic factors.
The media is struggling to respond to populist leaders, often inadvertently bolstering their anti-establishment image.
Populist leaders are positioning themselves as champions of freedom against government interference.
There is a conscious effort among populist leaders to create international networks and propagate their ideologies.
Illiberal democracy is a concern where leaders respect election outcomes but undermine personal freedoms and minority rights.
The current populist wave is compared to the 1930s, raising questions about the legitimacy and future of liberal democracy.
The left wing has been less successful at harnessing populist sentiments compared to the right.
Populist movements are unlikely to disappear soon, but the pendulum of public opinion can swing.
Democracy is seen as the least bad form of government, even if facing populist challenges.
Transcripts
with anti-establishment nationalist
politicians on the rise on both sides of
the Atlantic I'll ask a panel of experts
whether we're entering a new and
dangerous era of right-wing populism an
upfront
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special across the globe and especially
across the West right-wing populists are
Riding High first they won the brexit
referendum in the UK and then the
presidential election in the US soon
they could have the French presidency
too so is this a populist moment are we
witnessing the dawn of a new nationalist
or authoritarian era and if so how
worried should we be the pope recently
said he was concerned that a wave of
populist movements could produce a new
Hitler joining me to discuss this are
Ruth Ben Gat professor of history at New
York University and an expert on fascist
and authoritarian regimes Shahi Hamid a
senior fellow at the Brookings
institution in Washington DC and author
of the recent book Islamic
exceptionalism from Paris we have Martin
can fellow at the Paris office of the
German Marshall fund his focus is on
transatlantic relations and French
politics and from Jerusalem we're joined
by anel feffer who writes about global
Affairs for haret and for the economist
he's covered everything from brexit and
the far right in Europe to the far right
in Israel thank you all for joining me
on this upfront special um Ruth I want
to start with you are we living in a new
era is this a populist moment and if so
what's driving it in your view I think
we're definitely living in a new era
we're also being fed a series of Crisis
narratives by the new right which would
like us to uh be in a new era where
everything is decaying and they are the
answer they are the saviors as to what's
driving it there's a sense of
disaffection with existing party
structures a sense of the weakness of
the left inability to deliver on
globalization and a yearning for a
strong leader in some cases as well as a
lot of kind of activistic fears set off
by the migrant crisis anchel you've been
covering uh reporting on populist
movements across the globe how new is
this in your reporting in your
journalistic
experience well I think this word that
we're using nowadays of popularism and
popularist movements I mean it's an
accurate description but it's also a
different name for something which we've
been talking about quite a while which
is identity politics I mean what is what
is what does a populist leader or a
populist movement do in a country it
basically creates these borders between
identities it's it's an Us Versus Them
us the hardworking honest patriotic
citizens of Sons and Daughters of the
country versus them the the blood
sucking Elites who actually basically
aliens and we've this has always been
part of modern politics it's not it's
not a new phenomena but what we're
seeing now the way it's being used in a
much more Amplified way over the various
modern ways that we have now of
communications especially social media
takes us to a much more much more
populist to use to use the term much
more populist form of politics and we
had in the past shardi as you've watched
events in the UK brexit what's happening
in France with Marine Le Pen's rise and
of course in the United States with
Donald Trump what's gone through your
head
so it sort of reminds me of the Middle
East in that um and you know early on I
remember listening to One of Trump's uh
kind of rallies and thinking to myself
he has a very hypnotic way of speaking
we might hate what he says but there is
a Charisma that we have to acknowledge
and he Taps into the worst aspects or
the dark let's say the darker aspects of
the human psyche and that's something
that Arab autocrats or various islamist
groups in the Middle East have been
doing for a long time they understand
that people want something more than
your kind of run-of-the-mill
technocratic politics and I wanted
Hillary Clinton to win but let's be
honest she wasn't very inspiring or
exciting she didn't speak to this desire
to be part of something meaningful so I
think what these different groups do
whether it's Trump or far-right
populists in Europe or islamist groups
is they speak to this human desire why
now why is this human desire in 2016
2017 well it's always been there I think
underneath the surface but I think I
think that a lot of this has to do with
various modern Trends I mean the rise of
social media and um technology and this
kind of cross-pollination between
countries where Trump is meeting with
leaders of the a far right in Britain or
Austria but I think it's also that you
know over the last few decades um we've
sort of hit I think a wall in the sense
of what this Center left or center right
politics can really offer and obviously
there's also been an economic recession
so you put those different aspects
together and I think you have a perfect
storm well picking up on The Perfect
Storm Martin can in Paris um the reason
we're all talking about populism is
because of what happened in 2016 in the
UK with brexit and in the United States
with Donald Trump's win in November
we're now in 17 and attention is now on
France where there's going to be a
presidential election uh where Marine
Leen of the national front is Riding
High uh the Netherlands G valdez's party
is said to do very well there could
become the largest single party why has
Continental Europe now suddenly looking
like Ground Zero for this populist
moment what is it about the
Europeans well I I would actually be
very cautious not to um link all these
different elections and make it look
like if it there is a pattern that would
would necessarily lead us to have Leen
being elected or have a populist leader
in the Netherland I think there are some
uh similarities between these different
countries but generally speaking we have
to take into account the national
singularities and and in the case of
France I hear a lot of of people both in
the UK or in the US kind of predicting
that Marine Leen would win uh that we
are already kind of blind and and not
able to to see it coming I would be very
very prudent I would say however that
there is definitely this feeling that
there is no we need to
repoliticization that there are
elections but there is no choice this
kind of consensual uh Central uh right
Central left politics does not deliver
that actually technocracy is
anti-democratic and that the populist
leaders that is the great irony the
populist leaders are the real ones who
care about freedom of of expression and
democracy and that is I think the danger
Ana do you agree with Martin uh that we
should be wary before drawing
connections between what's happening in
Britain with brexit us with Trump France
with lean the Netherlands with vas and
then we'll come to the rest of the world
but just those those cases in particular
I totally agree with Martin because
basically what we're seeing in this rise
of populism is not just a right-wing
phenomena I mean there are many elements
in the Corbin the Corbin ISTA camp in in
the UK which used very similar kinds of
populism part of the Bernie Sanders
phenomena there was a lot of populism
there you can go to to to to parts of
Europe bee gilo in Italy he's certainly
not a right-winger sera in Greece
populism is not just a writing phenomena
it's a way of doing politics it's a way
of engaging with with an audience and
with a public which is not necessarily
far left far right it could be it could
be either side so so these connections
are very uh I mean it's a bit
superficial to say this is just a
rightwing thing especially as you see
the Uber populist Vladimir Putin in
Russia he he goes it both ways he
engages with the far left and the far
right as well Ruth yeah but something is
happening uh about drawing the
connections and making networks that's
going on which is very disturbing and to
me as a historian reminds me very much
of what happened in the late 1930s with
the axis where you see uh the reason for
example Steve Bannon was brought into
the Trump Administration is for his
Breitbart media which is beginning to
spread with European additions you have
a lot of meetings going on Marine Leen
and people coming to Putin people coming
to Trump and there's an attempt to kind
of set up this network of Accords and
and kind of like-minded meetings and and
propaganda you say like your minded
meetings what is connecting what do they
what do they think these parties and
leaders think connects them they think
uh they think what connects them is they
have a vision of the future and I wanted
to put the accent on the sense of this
this kind of Crisis narratives but also
the accent on freedom when Marine Le Pen
said brexit was an act of Courage it's a
freedom for people you see a lot of the
word use of the word freedom in the
Netherlands in Austria in the titles of
parties and it's this kind of Freedom
you know from government interference
freedom from uh invasion of non-whites
so you have all of that going on and
there are these conscious attempts to
make these connections now and so even
if we don't want to lump them all
together we have to realize that there
is this kind of process going on CH I
mean there's something there's something
else that's different today I mean we're
living in the post 911 era we're living
in the age of Isis and we're seeing the
rise of Muslim immigration so we see
growing Muslim populations in many of
the countries we've mentioned whether
it's France Britain or the Netherlands
and I think what's interesting and is
exactly right that some are some are
more leftwing populist some are
right-wing um one leader of Italy's
northernly described his party as
libertarian but also socialist what the
heck does that mean but the the thread
that ties these different groups
together is a fear of Islam and Muslims
and almost without exception which I
think is a a really interesting feature
and they see Islam as a civilizational
threat and they Define themselves in
opposition to that other how much of
this and I'm asking all of you guys but
starting with Shi how much of this is
driven uh by quote unquote identity
politics by this idea of the other
immigrants Islam Muslim civilizational
challenges and how much of it is driven
by economics by the idea that these are
the Left Behind of globalization these
are the losers from free trade which of
those Trends do you think is really
driving this I think one problem we have
in this debate is we try to say well
it's one or the other it's either racism
or economics when it's a mix and the two
reinforce each other right but I but I
think one thing you there's not a
natural link between being left behind
by globalization and seeing Islam as the
biggest threat to your way no I mean
automatic link between well the more you
feel you're left behind the more you're
going to try to find scapegoats the more
you're going to ask yourself well all
these Muslim immigrants and refugees who
are coming in are they going to take
away my jobs and when things aren't
going well in your own life then you
find Refuge let's say an identity
ideology or religion so I think the two
go do go together and I think it's
especially an issue in countries that
are quite secular in Europe that have a
strong identity of keeping religion
outside of the public sphere so you have
Muslim immigrants coming in and holding
on to some of their Traditions or
religious practices let let's see if
Martin agrees with you he's sitting in
perhaps the most quote unquote secular
country in
Europe yes well I I would say that
actually both identity politics and the
economic crisis have fueled this
phenomenon but they are not the roots of
it uh I would say that the root of it
and what basically connects all these
parties together is this feeling of
theconnection between part of the
population and quote unquote the elite
this is something that's quite common to
all around Continental Europe and and
and this is more about it's not about a
crisis of democracy it's not about I
don't want to participate but it's more
about I want to bypass uh the
traditional party I want to bypass the
elite and and talk directly to the
decision makers so it can take a form of
of a referendum that's that's the
strategy of the for naal in France
having a referendum more or less for
every law and and and can be with the
form of of Twitter and and social medias
in other countries so uh in my my
opinion and definitely in the case of
France they have economic and identity
politics have participated in the funon
but they are not really the explanatory
factor I want to jump in about the issue
of communication that Martin raised it
cannot be overstated how important this
kind of direct bond with the people is
whether you have a charismatic leader
like Trump uh the use of Twitter this
kind of sense that with communication
you're bypassing mainstream media you're
bypassing U mastodonic party structures
the mainstream media is a big bogeyman
for yes should go between scare quotes
um and I you know when Trump started
tweeting um and he would tweet at 3:00
a.m. at 3 p.m. it really it really was
very affecting and moving to many of his
supporters who felt like he was there
for them at all hours of the day and
night and it made the scripted um you
know we have these two huge parties in
the United States with these kind of you
know old-fashioned bureaucratic
communication structures and it made
them look very behind the times and and
through them uh through this way Trump
was able to forge a kind of
authoritarian Bond that's very
charismatic in nature and once those
bonds are formed they're very difficult
to break uh Shi you've written about
illiberal democracy and the and the
threat of ilal the concern around it
what do you mean by that explain what
the worry is and what is illiberal
democracy so illiberal Democrats are
those who believe in the Democratic
process they come to power through
Democratic means but they're illiberal
in the sense that they're they don't
really believe as much in personal
rights and freedoms and civil liberty
protections for minority rights so there
is the tension so liberalism and
democracy don't necessarily go together
but from my standpoint um respecting
Democratic outcomes is pretty critical
so I've been quite out outspoken against
the not my president hashtag thing in
the US or trying to get the Electoral
College in the US to overturn a
democratic outcome Donald Trump was
legitimately and democratically elected
through our existing rules regardless of
whether we like them or not so he is I'm
afraid to say um my and our let put this
if you view Donald Trump as some do not
just as ilit illegitimate but say a
fascist or a Neo fascist and if you
therefore start going back to history
Ruth mentioned this remind you of the
1930s I think the pope recently said
look what populism gave us in the past
I'm worried about another Hitler then
then where does that leave you in terms
of legitimacy and accepting some of
these parties the problem is the
scariest thing is that these people
don't need to transform their states
into a one party dictatorship and I'm an
expert on fascism and I have not called
Donald Trump a fascist because I want to
respect that difference he's an
authoritarian but what happens is
they're able to stretch the boundaries
of
democracy uh to to something
unrecognizable but it's not a it's not a
fascist regime and and the the danger is
also this kind of uh proc C of
intimidation of citizens which we're
seeing very heavily in the first days of
Trump's rule where people are afraid to
speak out and the boundaries are pushed
uh to what can be said and the kind of
tolerance for violence and rhetorical or
actual and you find yourself with a a
state that is transformed uh out of all
recognition but it's still quote
democracy and how does a media cope with
this phenomenon I'm going to come to
anela in a second but Martin to you
first we talked about the media being a
bogeyman for some of these populist
movements how does the media tackle the
likes of trump
Leen well I think that's that's that's
the point the media don't know how to do
uh W with this kind of of uh characters
because what what is usually do done is
is to criticize them for being this Neo
fascist or or this new authoritative
figures it doesn't impact their
popularity it actually doesn't help and
it it will rather participate in in the
feeling that these uh politicians are
the real anti- system which is what most
of the people that are voting for them
want so the media uh can only give new
arguments by kind of creating this war
on populism and and and make basically
confirm the idea that there is an elite
versus uh some courageous anti-stem uh
parties ano
I think the media is beginning to pay
the price for uh being too much
infotainment over the last 20 or 30
years I mean the media was uh you know
has allowed itself to become dumbed down
has felt this need to fill in so many
hours of broadcasts on on 24-hour cable
uh channels and on the internet to fill
so so much space that the media's
diluted itself and become very much
obsessed with celebrity obsessed with PR
obsessed with with Hollywood and
everything around it and much less focus
on what the media was what journalism
was supposed to do which was supposed to
speak truth to power and it allowed
itself to you know to be to be
captive be captivated by these bigger
than Life So Co bigger than life people
like Donald I mean Donald Trump
basically was just waiting to come along
for this moment in the media when the
media just needs a good story to tell
rather than actually looking for the
facts Trump is Trump would not have been
elected uh president in in another media
period and now the media is finally
having to look at itself in the mirror
and see how did we create a different
journalistic land landscape which
allowed this Ruth is saying that's not
true come in Ruth and then anel if you
look at the history of the media but you
you had musolini who came in and there
was no TV and he he's a very good
president in his time because he was a
journalist he was a master of slogans of
rallies and he learned about moving
images as being very effective so his
Twitter was was news reels and and
movies but you have a similar thing
where there are times in history where
you have these forces and these
anxieties and then a charismatic person
can come and coales these things and
Lead everybody and and get a form of
consensus and that's what we've got now
with Trump and a lot of people look at
the populis M say why can't the left do
populism the way right do the same
distrust of Bankers the same distrust of
the media the same anger at
globalization should also in theory fuel
leftwing parties and it hasn't really CA
in Greece maybe Bernie Sanders had his
moment in the US ber is a good right are
winning this Bernie Sanders is a good
good example of this and I think that um
my disagreements with him aside I think
that his model of tapping into that
anger is a model that should be a
followed closely and that was a real
contrast with Hillary Clinton as much as
Hillary Clinton used used populist
rhetoric it was never convincing because
you knew that deep down she didn't feel
it do you think in the current moment if
you're not fighting populists right-wing
populists with equal an equally angry
leftwing populism the right-wing
populist will win I think that's part of
but you can you can be angry but still
be smart you can be angry and still base
your anger on facts the two aren't
mutually exclusive ano you raised this
point at the start of the show that you
know populism is left and right and yet
wherever we look it's the right that
seems to be doing it better and winning
off the back of it why is the left so
bad at populism in the
west because there we're talking here
about two different kinds of populism
there's a populism which comes along
with the politics of hate with with the
nasty side of identity politics and that
is a lot of what we're seeing on the in
these right-wing movements and I think
there's also some nasty sides there were
some nasty Parts in the in the Sanders
you know the Bernie Bros and there's
some nasty streaks in the corista camp
and we can see SE in other parts of the
world so it's not necessarily nasis just
on the right wing but it is more
effective for the right wing because the
right wing have all these patriotism
blood and soil kind of narratives which
have always lent themselves to a certain
kind of populism but I to make make one
point here about what Shi say Shad is
very right there has to be a way of
linking to the anger and to the feelings
of people and it may be it's another
form of populism it's a more benign form
of populism it's a more positive for
populism does not necessarily have to be
like the Pope said the thing was going
to lead to Hitler I mean Hitler's
biggest enemy church was a was a
populist as well so populism is not
necessarily a bad thing when it's
married with hate and with fear with all
the
phobias that that's when it's it's
really worrying yeah um Shi is so right
about harnessing the power of emotion
the power of Charisma the the center
left has to fight back with
appropriating some of the things that
the center right and the right has done
and I do want want to say something that
picks up what you at the beginning of
the program about Hillary Clinton you
know she did have uh something that was
bigger than all of us it was female
power and you cannot underestimate what
an inspiring thing it was to have a
woman who T has fought her whole career
for children's rights for for women's
rights and yet the majority of her
fellow white women voted for Donald
Trump it's true but it's a very but it
set as you see from the women's March it
set off a whole Cascade of otion and
that's an example of something positive
but the the enormous uh misogyny that
her campaign raised is also something to
be aware of because a lot of these
movements Marine Leen not withstanding
as the female leader they are an attempt
to turn the clock back and have European
white Christian male privilege upheld
let me ask you this a lot of viewers
around the world will be listening to
you point out that you've studied
fascism extremism on this show so far
you've said he reminds you of the 1930s
and melini is a good
model that will worry a lot of people if
that's the case what comes
next I I think uh I think fighting
fighting back with appropriate what I
said before what comes next is to find
appropriate ways of of making an
alternate Mo alternate model palatable
and appealing but before you get to that
stage things are going to get worse
before they get better is what you're
see I believe they will and I have spent
a lot of time writing things
that are designed to make people look at
what we have in front of us that Donald
Trump for example is an authoritarian
and he cannot be combed including by the
media with the usual rules he's changed
the rules of the game and that's an
opportunity of for Freedom you can
change it as well uh on other side
briefly you know on this point I mean
most Americans my age haven't lived
under an under
authoritarianism they take a lot of this
for granted and understandably so but I
think what the one a positive of the
Donald Trump phenomenon is that I think
now a lot of people have to look Inward
and they have to not take it for granted
and liberal democracy or just democracy
or just the things that we're used to in
terms of minority rights are things that
you have to fight for and I think that
if if if all of this can lead to that
realization maybe that will shake us
from our complacency and Sh final word
to you are these populist movements
going away anytime soon is this a a
long-term or a short-term
phenomenon well I think that we should
always bear in mind that the same
electorate which voted in Donald Trump a
a few months ago eight years ago voted
in Barack Obama so there's a you know
the pendulum is at work here the
properties movements never went away
they were always here but I think that
we are in better shape than we were in
the 1920 1930s to to face them and I'm
still optimistic about democracy it's
still I think as Churchill said the
least bad of of the least worst of all
the of all the various options and I
think that the United States can survive
for even eight years under Donald Trump
we'll have to leave it there thank you
all for joining me on upfront I
appreciate
[Music]
it
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