The Rise of Far-Right Populism| Bigger Than Five

Summary

The video script from 'Bigger than Five' explores the global rise of far-right nationalism and populism, examining its impact on international order. With examples from the US, Europe, Brazil, and beyond, it discusses whether this trend is a disruptive force or a response to societal concerns. The conversation features experts debating the implications for democracy, economy, and social challenges, questioning whether populism can truly address the needs of the people or if it's more about exclusion and division.

Takeaways

• 🌍 Far-right nationalism and populism are on the rise globally, affecting countries from Europe to South America and Asia.
• 🇺🇸 Donald Trump is seen as a leader of this populist movement, promoting policies such as 'America First' and strong stances on immigration and trade.
• 💼 Despite claiming to represent the working class, Trump's administration has a significant presence of lobbyists and representatives from big businesses.
• 🏛️ Trump’s economic adviser, Stephen Moore, argues that Trump has taken a populist stance on issues like immigration, trade, and tax cuts, although critics point to corporate influences within his administration.
• 🇧🇷 Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, often compared to Trump, has enacted policies that have led to a significant increase in police killings and controversial actions against crime.
• 🌏 Populist leaders often frame their politics as a battle against elites and outsiders, appealing to working-class citizens who feel marginalized.
• 🇺🇸 American nationalism, as discussed by Frank Buckley, emphasizes a preference for Americans over non-Americans and aims to implement merit-based immigration similar to Canada’s system.
• 🤝 The discussion highlights concerns about the divisive rhetoric used by populist leaders, which can exacerbate social and political tensions.
• 🗳️ There are worries that populist movements may undermine democratic institutions and values, though some believe in the self-corrective nature of democratic societies.
• 📰 The broader impact of these populist movements includes a coarsening of political discourse and a potential erosion of trust in national and international institutions.

Q & A

What is the main topic of the video 'Bigger Than Five'?

The main topic of the video is the rise of far-right nationalism and populism globally, and its potential impact on international order and politics.

What does the host suggest about the far-right political parties in Europe?

The host suggests that far-right parties in Europe have made significant progress, gaining a notable number of seats in several EU countries, which is unprecedented since World War II.

How does Donald Trump view his role in the context of the far-right movement?

Donald Trump sees himself as the cheerleader of the rising far-right movement and has attempted to capitalize on this momentum during his state visit to the UK.

What are some of the policies or slogans associated with far-right populist leaders according to the transcript?

Some policies and slogans include 'America First', stopping immigration, eradicating Islamic ideology, regulating globalization, and returning the economy and oligarchies to their proper place.

What does the speaker argue about the state of European politics over the past 20 years?

The speaker argues that extremists are those who have governed Europe for the past 20 years, citing precariousness and poverty as a result of their policies.

What is the Hungarian government's stance on migrants, according to the transcript?

The Hungarian government has entrusted their leaders to stop migrants across all of Europe, defend the Europe of nations, and protect Christian culture in Europe.

What is Stephen Moore's view on Donald Trump's impact on the Republican Party?

Stephen Moore believes that Donald Trump has converted the Republican Party into a populist, working-class party, taking positions that are popular among middle-class voters and challenging corporate interests in various areas.

What is the argument made by the host regarding the presence of lobbyists in the Trump administration?

The host argues that the presence of hundreds of lobbyists representing big businesses in the administration contradicts the idea of a working-class party and Trump's promise to 'drain the swamp'.

How does Stephen Moore respond to the criticism of Trump's administration being influenced by corporate interests?

Stephen Moore argues that Trump has taken on big businesses in areas like trade, drug prices, and technology companies, and that Trump's administration is pro-business but not necessarily biased towards corporate interests.

What is the view expressed by the host on the global rise of far-right populism?

The host suggests that the global rise of far-right populism is a force that thrives on exclusionary politics, disruption, and division, and questions whether it can address economic and social challenges effectively.

What is the panel's consensus on the future of populism and democracy?

The panel believes that while populism may not be able to deliver on its promises and could lead to a coarsening of politics, democracy, despite its flaws, is still the best system and has self-corrective instincts that prevent things from getting out of hand.

Outlines

00:00

🌍 The Rise of Far-Right Nationalism and Populism

The script opens with a discussion on the global rise of far-right nationalism and populism, highlighting its presence from Italy to the Philippines. It introduces the show 'Bigger than Five' and its host Rider, who questions whether this trend is a solution to global issues or a threat to international order. The narrative mentions the political gains of far-right parties in Europe and the U.S., with a focus on Donald Trump's 'America First' policy and his attempts to capitalize on the populist wave during his state visit to the UK. The script also touches on the controversial policies proposed by these movements, such as halting immigration, eradicating Islamic ideology, and regulating globalization.

05:02

🤔 The Populist Paradox: Trump's Economic Policies and Corporate Lobbyists

This paragraph delves into the debate over whether President Trump has truly transformed the Republican party into a populist working-class party. It features an interview with Stephen Moore, a former economic adviser to Trump, who argues that Trump's policies on immigration, trade, and tax cuts reflect populism. However, the discussion also addresses the presence of hundreds of corporate lobbyists in the Trump administration, raising questions about the alignment of these policies with the interests of the working class. Moore defends the administration's stance, stating that Trump is pro-business but also takes on big businesses in certain areas, such as trade and drug prices.

10:03

🏛️ The Impact of Populist Leaders on Society and Democracy

The script continues with a discussion on the impact of populist leaders on society and democracy, using the example of Brazil's new president, Jair Bolsonaro, who has been associated with far-right ideologies. It presents contrasting views on whether these leaders are responding to legitimate concerns of the people or exploiting them for political gain. The conversation includes insights from John Alterman and Frank Buckley, who debate the nature of populism, its potential threat to democracy, and the importance of recognizing the diverse needs and interests within societies.

15:04

🛑 The Challenge of Populism: Delivering on Promises vs. Reality

In this section, the script explores the challenges that populist leaders face in delivering on their promises. It suggests that while these leaders may start strong with charismatic leadership, they often fail to meet the high expectations set, leading to disillusionment among their followers. The conversation also touches on the potential erosion of trust in institutions and the importance of maintaining democratic values and norms. The speakers discuss the resilience of democracy and the need for self-correction within societies to address the shortcomings of populist movements.

20:05

🌐 The Future of Populism and Globalism

The final paragraph of the script contemplates the future of populism and globalism, questioning whether the current trend of far-right populism will continue to grow or whether it will eventually decline due to its inability to address complex economic and social challenges. The discussion suggests that while there is a retreat from globalism, the exclusionary politics and divisive nature of populism may not be sustainable in the long term. The script concludes with a reflection on the need for healing and rebuilding trust within societies and the importance of democratic processes in overcoming current challenges.

Keywords

💡Far-right Nationalism

Far-right Nationalism is a political ideology that emphasizes national identity and prioritizes the interests of the perceived 'native' population over others. In the video, it is discussed as a rising global movement, with examples given such as the political shifts in Italy and Brazil, suggesting a trend towards nationalistic policies that may challenge the status quo of international cooperation and liberal values.

💡Populism

Populism is a political approach that seeks to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups. The video script discusses the rise of right-wing populism as a potential answer to global problems or as a disruptive force, highlighting the appeal of populist leaders who claim to represent the interests of the common people against the elites.

💡International Order

The International Order refers to the system of global rules and institutions that govern relations between countries. The script raises the question of whether the rise of far-right nationalism and populism is threatening this order, suggesting that these movements could challenge the existing frameworks of international relations and cooperation.

💡Donald Trump

Donald Trump, as the 45th President of the United States, is mentioned in the script as a figure who identifies with and has tried to capitalize on the rising populist sentiment. His 'America First' slogan encapsulates the nationalist and populist approach to prioritizing domestic interests over global engagements.

💡Economic Nationalism

Economic Nationalism is the policy of prioritizing a country's economic interests over international economic cooperation. The script discusses this concept in the context of trade policies, suggesting that populist leaders like Trump advocate for protectionist measures to protect domestic industries and jobs.

💡Immigration

Immigration is a central theme in the video, with the script mentioning the rhetoric of stopping immigration as part of a populist platform. It is discussed as a contentious issue where populist leaders often take a hardline stance, arguing for stricter controls to protect national identity and jobs.

💡Globalization

Globalization is the process of increased interconnectedness and interdependence of countries through trade, investment, and cultural exchange. The script suggests that populist movements, including far-right nationalism, may advocate for regulating or even reversing globalization, viewing it as a threat to national sovereignty and economic interests.

💡Establishment

The term 'Establishment' in the script refers to the existing power structures, including political, economic, and media elites. Populist leaders often position themselves as challengers to the establishment, claiming to fight for the people against the privileged few.

💡Working Class

The Working Class is a social group that traditionally relies on manual labor or low-skilled jobs for their livelihood. The video discusses how populist leaders claim to represent the interests of the working class, often using rhetoric that appeals to their economic concerns and aspirations.

💡Trade War

A Trade War refers to a situation where countries impose tariffs or other trade barriers against each other, leading to negative economic consequences. The script mentions the trade war with China as an example of a populist approach to addressing economic imbalances, with the aim of protecting domestic industries.

💡Democracy

Democracy is a system of government where power is vested in the people, who exercise it directly or through elected representatives. The video script discusses the potential erosion of democratic norms and values due to the rise of populist and nationalist movements, which may prioritize the will of the majority over minority rights and the rule of law.

Highlights

The rise of far-right nationalism and right-wing populism as a global phenomenon is discussed, with its potential to either solve or disrupt international order.

Far-right parties in Europe have made unprecedented progress since World War II, gaining significant seats and challenging the political center.

Donald Trump's role as a self-proclaimed cheerleader for the rising far-right movement and his efforts to capitalize on this momentum during his state visit to the UK.

The debate over what far-right political disruptors can achieve, beyond popular slogans, with a focus on 'America First' policies.

Criticism of the far-right in Europe, claiming they have governed in the name of precariousness and poverty for the past 20 years.

The Hungarian Prime Minister's commitment to stopping migrants, defending the Europe of nations, and protecting Christian culture in Europe.

Stephen Moore's perspective on Trump's conversion of the Republican Party into a populist, working-class party despite the presence of lobbyists.

Discussion on Trump's pro-business stance and how it contrasts with his populist image, including his actions against big businesses and trade policies.

Concerns about the influence of big business representatives within the Trump administration and the potential conflict with populist ideals.

The trade war with China as described by Moore, who views it as an abusive relationship and a new cold war, necessitating a strong stance against Chinese practices.

The potential benefits and risks of an all-out trade war with China, and the belief that it could lead to freer trade and a better agreement for the US.

The debate on whether Trump's populist policies will secure his re-election in 2020, with Moore expressing optimism for Trump's chances.

Jair Bolsonaro's presidency in Brazil, his promises to ease gun laws and combat crime, and the resulting increase in police killings.

The exploration of whether the global rise of far-right populism is a threat or a response to legitimate concerns of the people.

John Alterman and Frank Buckley's discussion on the common themes among populist leaders and the potential risks of exclusionary politics.

Concerns about the erosion of trust in liberal democracies and the potential undermining of democratic values by populist rhetoric.

The potential for self-correction within American society and the belief that Americans can prevent things from getting out of hand.

The final thoughts on the future of populism, democracy, and the challenges of addressing economic and social issues through exclusionary politics.

Transcripts

[Music]

is far-right nationalism a new global

movement is the rise of right-wing

populism the answer to the world's

problems or is it a disruptive force

that is threatening the international

order

hello and welcome to bigger than five

with me rider

the far right is on the rise from italy

to india from the philippines to brazil

the specter of populism has become

global

in europe far-right parties have made

headway like never before since world

war ii

in several eu countries they have

stripped a significant number of seats

from the center

donald trump who sees himself as the

cheerleader of this rising insurgent

movement

tried to capitalize on this growing

momentum during his state visit to the

uk this week

but beyond their popular slogans what

can these political disruptors actually

achieve

from this day

forward it's going to be only america

first

america

first

immigration should be stopped an islamic

ideology should be eradicated

globalization should be regulated

economy and oligarchies return to their

proper place

[Music]

there are no far right here but the

politics of good

sense extremists are those who have

governed europe for the past 20 years in

the name of precariousness and poverty

[Music]

we've managed in five and a half weeks

not just

to frighten the establishment oh no

they're not frightened

they're absolutely terrified

[Music]

hey

hungarians commissioned three things

from us in the first place they've

entrusted us to stop migrants across all

of europe they've commissioned us to

defend the europe of nations and they've

commissioned us to protect christian

culture in europe and you can be sure

that that is what we are going to do

[Applause]

[Music]

so as the populists march on the leader

of the pack remains at the helm here in

washington with his sights on the 2020

election will president trump continue

down the populist path i'm joined by

stephen moore a former senior economic

adviser to trump and an economist at the

heritage foundation he was previously

considered for a seat on the federal

reserve board stephen moore you believe

that donald trump has converted the

republican party into quote a populist

working class party if that really is

the case how then do you explain the

fact that hundreds of lobbyists

representing big business and major

corporations work in the administration

well look there's

lobbyists all over washington d.c but i

do think that donald trump has been a

president who has uh really taken a lot

of positions um that are populous that

uh on immigration on trade on cutting

taxes you know if you look at the um the

way he won the election in 2016 he won a

lot of these kind of middle class voters

and middle america and and by the way

having worked for the campaign i think a

lot of americans were disgusted with

both the republican and democratic party

and they were disgusted by corporate

interest and he specifically campaigned

on this promise of draining the swamp in

other words ridding washington of its

corporate interest that's not what he's

done so

president trump in my opinion is very is

pro is a very pro-business president and

which is good he's great we're creating

a lot of jobs where our businesses are

financially healthy uh he's unapologetic

about that but i can point to you a lot

of areas where he's take on taking on

the big

businesses the big businesses don't like

his trade policy with respect to uh

china with respect to mexico

uh he's taken on the big drug companies

in terms of drug prices he's taken on

google and some of the big uh you know

big technology companies but he's not

taking on the lobbyists who represent

them that's not exactly what a working

class party looks like well

you know i mean when when he's coming

out against um a lot of these firms um i

think i think he does

he does what

what i think he thinks is best for

america it's this is what i'm putting

america first is about i think it would

be unfair to say that he just represents

corporate interests because there's so

many issues where he's really butted

heads with corporate america well and by

the way a lot of the corporate you know

the chamber of commerce and a lot of

those major business groups they didn't

even support trump when he ran for

president

sure but i mean advocacy groups are

finding it quite concerning that he is

allowing

so many of the representatives of big

business to be involved within the

government i have a whole list here

that's published on open secrets you can

take a look we can go through the names

one by one it's an eight nine page long

uh document that shows to what extent

there is an infiltration of these sort

of

big interest influences within the

administration so my question to you is

how does that square off with the idea

of being a populist well i mean you're

the average working class person so you

know i i'm not familiar with the study

you're talking about and so i i can't

really comment about it i will say this

that you know there are a lot of

business men and women who are in the

trump administration this is as i said

this is a very pro-business

administration he wants american

companies to out-compete china and japan

and germany and and other countries now

um you look at somebody like wilbur ross

who's our commerce secretary you know he

has

been an extremely successful business

person some people say oh he's

representing this interest or not but i

think what makes trump a kind of unique

president is that the p he's brought in

people who have been successes you know

in terms of business and we need that we

need to run i think we need to run

washington and our government more like

a business pay its bills

you know uh be efficient be productive

and i think that's the change that trump

has brought but are you then misleading

the public by saying that you represent

their interests

groups are going even further they're

calling it quote a takeover of

government by an extremist faction of

the corporate class can you deny that

just because someone worked for a

company or corporation doesn't mean that

they're you know that they're biased i

think these are i've worked you know

with donald trump i know a lot of his

top advisors i think they're excellent

people i think they have the american

interest

at stake and you know i i do think that

it would be and by the way i had to sign

something when i signed up for donald

trump that i would not work you know for

a corporate interest and so on that i

would not become a lobbyist and i think

he's if anything i think trump has

gotten around that whole idea of what's

what uh you know you call the revolving

door of people coming into government

and then into business and i'll be more

than happy to share this list with you

of all hundreds of lobbyists i'll take

your word i'll leave it here and we can

of course have a look at it but part of

trump's quote-unquote populist message

as well is to pit the united states

against this foreign enemy

uh more often than not china stealing

jobs taking away jobs in people's lives

livelihoods in this country you've

called the trade war with china the epic

battle of our time and you say that

trump is right to take the fight to

beijing how does an all-out trade war

with this new economic superpower

actually benefit the united states well

we're in an abusive relationship with

china they cheat they steal they lie

they're involved in cyber espionage

against the united states they're

hacking into our computer systems

this is this is the new cold war i

really believe that i think china is

back to its totalitarian roots that you

saw under mao i think it's become a

regime that's both an economic and

national security danger to the united

states and you know this behavior of

them

you know stealing 300 billion dollars of

our technology every year the fact that

they're they've disregarded every wto

rule and regulation they're acting

illegally uh the fact that they have not

opened up their markets to the united

states while we've totally opened up our

markets to them i think look i don't

always agree with you you can argue you

can argue exploitation of workers

currency manipulations subsidies

lack of freedoms but the numbers are

there they went from

an economy whose gdp was 150 billion

dollars just in 1978 to what they are

now almost 15 trillion dollars

in this reality and just live with it it

was one thing for us to uh turn a blind

eye to some of the uh economic uh

malpractice that they were involved in

when they were a two or three trillion

dollar economy now they're a ten

trillion dollar economy as you just said

they're the second largest economy we

can't go forward with the relationship

where they're cheating and stealing and

we're just basically taking it very easy

it's very easy to blame everything on

china when presumably one should also

look at the failings of the capitalist

system that you are such a fierce

defender of

it has not fulfilled the promises it

once said it would live up to in fact it

has left all of these working-class

people that the trump administration

purports to defend on the sidelines on

the margins this is this is the

working-class president you know there

was a report in the wall street journal

that the biggest wage gains

have been for lower and middle-income

people i mean i just think it's been a

phenomenal success for working-class

americans i mean and i think it's a

beautiful picture we've got right now

now look i agree with you on the china

trade thing it's with respect to this is

a high risk strategy there's no question

about it it is going to hurt the u.s

economy but i think at the end of the

day donald trump is going to win i think

we're going to get a trade agreement

with china that will actually mean freer

trade between both of our countries

which would be fantastic and do you

expect donald trump to get re-elected on

the basis of what he the policies

populist policies that he's adopted i

think there's a very high likelihood

donald trump is going to be elected

president in 2020. stephen moore thank

you very much thank you

further south the so-called trump of the

tropics jair bolsonaro was sworn in as

brazil's president in january the former

army captain ran on easing gun laws and

promised to stamp out crime

in the first four months of his

presidency 558 people were killed by

police in rio de janeiro alone that's

nearly five killings per day according

to the government's own data and while

thousands gathered on the streets of rio

last week in support of bolsonaro we

went to sao paulo to hear how brazilians

there view their populist president

[Music]

my

foreign

here

[Music]

[Music]

[Music]

[Music]

[Music]

um

is

[Music]

b

so then is this global rise of far-right

populous truly a global threat or are

these leaders responding to the

legitimate concerns of the people i'm

joined by john alterman senior vice

president and brazilian chair in global

security and geo strategy at the center

for strategic and international studies

and frank buckley he is a foundation

professor at george mason university's

scalia school of law he is also a former

campaign speechwriter for president

trump welcome to you both frank buckley

you call donald trump a liberal

nationalist you say that whatever is

happening in europe has nothing

whatsoever to do with trump many people

in europe would actually disagree they

see a common thread

between the populists on the other side

of the atlantic and here in the us they

may well do so but i think it's

important to recognize that when

americans talk about nationalism they're

talking about

what the country of lincoln

and jefferson and to the extent that

you're anti-liberal as populists may be

you're something less than an american

nationalist but you're not happy with

your country today when we talk about

far-right nationalists and populists

would you agree that there are common

themes that link them all together and

bind them that they have

exploited and when i say they the

leaders

in europe in

south america in india in the

philippines and other countries they've

exploited what trump also has done quite

successfully they've made this appear as

a fight against the elites against the

establishment against the unwanted

migrant

they've shown that this is a struggle in

their words for the working class well

indeed there's something to that in the

sense that at least in america the

elites the liberal elites i might call

them that in a political sense have

argued that uh they're the people on the

side of economic mobility and equality

whereas i've argued it's exactly their

policies which are keeping us immobile

and unequal so yes there was a real

economic need for

a trump presidency but i'd really

caution against trying to link that to

say what's happening in india would you

link this movement to john ultimately i

think there is what i see populist

leaders doing

is saying

we

the majority are all homogenous we are

all like each other and there's a

minority

that is trying to take things from us

and we need to take the country we the

majority need to take it from the

minority in reality in my view i don't

know whether frank agrees or not

actually

societies are made up of lots of

different cross-cutting minorities where

you share some things with thirty

percent some things with forty percent

some things with twenty percent so

everybody has so many different

identifiers everybody is simultaneously

and majority and you trade off that's

the way democracy works the way

autocracy works is that the way

democracy works because it sounds like

exclusionary politics which could be

very detrimental as you say to

minorities in many countries

the mayor of london just described trump

as quote just one of the most egregious

examples of a growing global threat was

this an unfair characterization do you

think john alterman or is he right in

putting all of these different players

who prey on people's fears with

scapegoat minorities in the same basket

again what is what seems to me to be the

threat

is saying to a group of people you are

all the majority and these people are

taking away from you in fact

we are all part of minorities we're all

part of majorities and we give and we

take and that's how societies work

that's how politics works and let me say

something again about american

nationalism and how this being a country

of all the minorities you're talking

about there's something that's rather

un-american about wanting to privilege

one group over another that is to say

we're the country of johnny cash and

aretha franklin and coolio and a whole

bunch of people now look you can but

who's talking about privileging one

group over another except for trump

and and his uh no i in his group i mean

this is a pluralist society isn't it i

disagree with that um i don't believe he

is but yet

while there are people who do that that

makes them less than american as far as

i'm concerned what they haven't

recognized is that to be an american

means you have to embrace all the very

different strands in our country you say

you don't believe that's what he's doing

but isn't he doing exactly that with

migrants with so-called invaders from

mexico with the muslim ban with really

trying to keep people out

and and wanting this country to be first

and foremost for americans yeah well

see if you're an american nationalist

you prefer americans to non-americans so

there's nothing

anti-american about saying we need

borders

as for that nobody says we shouldn't

have borders i mean but the issue is but

the issue is

do you essentially deny the incredible

process by which

foreign populations become american

that's been the history of the united

states and what strikes me as as

particular to

the trump presidency the trump political

approach

is it seems to deny that some people can

cease to be a threat it denies the

greatness of america in taking these

immigrant populations and turning them

not only into taxpayers but into nobel

laureates and other people to lead the

country into the future i'm one of these

people you're referring to actually but

exactly this is not just about economics

though is it because you say that it's

the slow process of restoring the

american dream how exactly does this

restore the america no i disagree and in

fact the best example the proof

is the new republican proposals with

respect to immigration which frankly

simply copy

the canadian immigration law i don't

hear anyone saying that canada is

anti-liberal

or should be attacked in any particular

way no if what we're trying to do is to

promote say a merit system based on the

canadian model that's not racist in fact

the canadian experience means what

you're going to end up doing is

admitting probably a lot more people

from asia the concern many people though

have is that this type of rhetoric that

we're hearing from populist politicians

today president trump here in the united

states and many across europe is fanning

the flames of intolerance that it is

pitting one group of people against

another we see this across the board

today is there a risk that many of these

liberal democracies as we call them run

the risk of becoming undermined that

their values become undermined yeah it

feels to me that there's a coarsening of

politics that part of politics is

assuming that if you lose once you can

win the next time and it seems to me

that baked in to the populist idea is a

sense that that there are people who

have rigged the system and we have to

take it back and never lose again

and it seems to me that that part of the

part of what makes democracy work is an

assumption that sometimes you win and

sometimes you lose and you're just as

legitimate as a loser as you are as a

winner and it sounds like this perpetual

victimization that we hear often here uh

frank buckley would you agree

no i i i

yes there's a lot of that going around i

wish people have thicker skins you know

the only people who have problems with

the legislative legitimacy of the trump

administration

are people on the left which reminds one

of what one admitted populist said huey

long said if fascism ever comes to the

united states he'll come under the label

of anti-fascism but aren't we seeing the

beginnings of that in many respects with

some of the rhetoric that's being used

it's vitriolic many people would argue

we also see a breakdown

in the institutions of the state i mean

can you say frankly that president trump

hasn't been undermining the independence

of the justice system the independence

of the free press can you say that he's

not been a model of civility i will

grant and his tweets on the way into

london just

reinforce that yeah but you know that

said when you look at policies as i say

the idea of a canadian system or indeed

the idea of preferring

americans to non-americans that's

precisely the definition of nationalism

refugees i mean it seems to me canada

has an exemplary way of welcoming

refugees the u.s has not only cut the

number of refugees but has has

eliminated the possibility of many

muslims even visit the united states i

think we agree on the idea

the problem is in the implementation it

seems to be

these people are dangerous it's us

against them and that us them instead of

we

right is it different i quite agree with

you about refugees by the way so where

do we go from here

do we see an increase in in populists

around the world do we see a trend

towards deglobalization what is the

answer to many of the world i think

ultimately populists can't deliver what

they promise that there's always

something populists often the movements

get started on the charisma of a leader

but either after the leader dies or

leaves the movement or just can't

fulfill all the promises people see

through it

democracy

and i distinguish democracy from

populism this sort of messy everybody's

in the minority is slow it's messy it's

inefficient

but

it's better than all the other stuff

and i think we have to get back to the

to understanding it's not perfect but

it's better than all the alternatives

are we seeing the slow demise the slow

decline of democracy no i don't think we

are it may be so in other countries but

in this country if that is happening

it's only happening because some people

are questioning

our constitutional norms but in the end

i look i think

americans have themselves are they

questioning constitutional laws are they

questioning the way the president has uh

has behaved in many respects uh well you

know you can certainly

you know criticize trump's tone he does

not speak like a gentleman let us admit

that it's fairly easy to do

but the point i wanted to make is that

there are self-corrective instincts in

americans they don't let have not ever

let things get out of hand too much and

one can take some comfort from that

so

you know there was that famous telegram

from austrian world war one

situation desperate but not serious

you're not concerned but but i do think

that a we are slipping in the world we

are slipping

as in the way we relate to each other it

will take a while to dig out i'm not

sure we're going to get back to the

level we were in terms of people

trusting

the united states in terms of americans

trusting each other i think this is

going to take some time to heal and it

may not heal completely

and yet there seems to be a serious

erosion of trust again also on the part

of the population around the world with

the status quo with the establishment

what is the best remedy well want of

trust or simply political disagreement

the latter is perfectly appropriate

all right frank buckley john altman

thank you both very much thank you

and with globalism now in retreat will

this far-right populist revolt address

the economic and social challenges

facing many countries

for now it appears to be a force that

thrives on exclusionary politics

disruption and division more than

anything else from merida and all the

team here in washington thanks for

watching see you next time

[Music]

you