Scaling the Unscalable With Disruptive Marketing Tips

Summary

L'importance de la croissance pour les startups est soulignée par Eric Pillweiler, fondateur et PDG de Rival, une agence de conseil en innovation marketing. Il partage des conseils précieux sur la construction de marque et de stratégies de marketing, mettant l'accent sur l'importance de comprendre les besoins des clients et d'ajouter de la valeur. Il discute également de la transparence nécessaire dans le monde des startups et de la pression subie par les entrepreneurs.

Takeaways

• 🌟 L'importance de la croissance pour les startups est cruciale et la marque est un élément clé pour une croissance durable à long terme.
• 🚀 Un bon produit配合 une excellente marque est la combinaison gagnante pour assurer la croissance des entreprises.
• 🧠 La marque influence la perception et le comportement des consommateurs, c'est pourquoi il est essentiel de la considérer comme une partie intégrante de la stratégie d'entreprise.
• 💡 La marque est plus qu'une simple identification visuelle, c'est l'ensemble des éléments qui entourent le bénéfice fonctionnel d'un produit.
• 🤔 Les startups ne mettent pas suffisamment l'accent sur la marque et le marketing en raison de la nature intangible et émotionnelle de ces domaines.
• 🔍 Il est possible de quantifier et mesurer l'impact d'une marque, même si cela n'est pas toujours immédiat ou complet.
• 📈 Les entreprises qui réussissent à se concentrer sur la création de valeur pour leur marché sont celles qui connaîtront une croissance importante.
• 🤝 La mise en place d'une équipe marketing doit être adaptée aux besoins et aux forces de l'entreprise, que ce soit pour un tout débutant ou pour une entreprise en croissance.
• 🎯 L'emphase sur la marque et le marketing ne doit pas se limiter à la publicité, mais doit être centrée sur l'intégration de la clientèle dans les processus de l'entreprise.
• 💼 L'entrepreneuriat est un processus difficile et stressant, il est important d'être honnête et transparent sur les défis et les réussites rencontrés.
• 🔗 L'investissement dans un CRM personnel peut être un atout majeur pour gérer efficacement les relations professionnelles et personnelles.

Q & A

Quel est le rôle principal du marketing pour les startups ?

Le rôle principal du marketing pour les startups est de favoriser la croissance de la marque et de l'entreprise à long terme. Cela implique de changer la perception et le comportement des consommateurs, en racontant une histoire et en créant une émotion autour du produit, pour influencer les décisions des clients.

Pourquoi les startups ne mettent-elles pas suffisamment l'accent sur le marketing et la construction de marque ?

Les startups ne mettent pas suffisamment l'accent sur le marketing et la construction de marque car elles sont souvent fondées par des personnes ayant des compétences techniques ou des connaissances en produit, mais pas nécessairement en marketing. Par conséquent, elles se concentrent principalement sur le développement du produit et négligent la marque et le marketing, qui sont cependant essentiels pour une croissance durable.

Comment les entreprises peuvent-elles mesurer l'impact de leur marque sur leur croissance ?

Les entreprises peuvent mesurer l'impact de leur marque sur leur croissance en utilisant des études de marché, des analyses de données et des indicateurs de performance marketing tels que le retour sur investissement (ROI). Elles peuvent également suivre les changements dans la perception et la loyauté des clients envers la marque.

Quels sont les avantages de la personnalité de marque pour les fondateurs et les équipes de startups ?

Les avantages de la personnalité de marque pour les fondateurs et les équipes de startups incluent la création d'une image positive et mémorisable, l'attraction de clients et d'investisseurs, et l'établissement d'une crédibilité dans l'industrie. Cela peut également aider à générer des partenariats et des opportunités de croissance.

Comment les startups peuvent-elles attirer l'attention et l'engagement des clients potentiels ?

Les startups peuvent attirer l'attention et l'engagement des clients potentiels en créant des contenus de qualité, en utilisant des stratégies de marketing ciblées et en établissant une connexion émotionnelle avec leur audience. Elles peuvent également organiser des événements, des campagnes de sensibilisation et des collaborations avec des influenceurs pour augmenter leur visibilité et leur crédibilité.

Quels sont les erreurs fréquentes que les startups commettent lors de la création de campagnes marketing ?

Les erreurs fréquentes que les startups commettent lors de la création de campagnes marketing incluent l'absence de清晰的目标, le manque de personnalisation des messages, l'investissement excessif dans des campagnes qui ne génèrent pas de retours sur investissement, et l'oubli de mesurer et d'analyser l'efficacité de leurs stratégies.

Comment les startups peuvent-elles améliorer leur stratégie de marketing pour une croissance durable ?

Les startups peuvent améliorer leur stratégie de marketing pour une croissance durable en comprenant les besoins et les préférences de leurs clients, en créant une marque forte et reconnaissable, en utilisant des canaux de marketing diversifiés et en mesurant l'impact de leurs campagnes pour ajuster leur approche en temps réel.

Quels sont les avantages de la transparence et de l'honnêteté dans les communications des startups avec leur audience ?

Les avantages de la transparence et de l'honnêteté dans les communications des startups incluent la construction de la confiance et de la crédibilité avec les clients et les investisseurs, la création d'une communauté engagée et fidèle, et l'évitement de la déception et de l'échec à cause de l'inflation des attentes.

Comment les startups peuvent-elles équilibrer la diffusion des nouvelles de réussite et de défaite ?

Les startups peuvent équilibrer la diffusion des nouvelles de réussite et de défaite en partageant honnêtement les hauts et les bas de leur parcours, en expliquant les leçons apprises des échecs et en célébrant les petits succès en cours de route. Cela permet de créer une image authentique et de maintenir l'engagement de leur audience.

Quels sont les avantages de la création d'une CRM personnelle pour les entrepreneurs et les fondateurs de startups ?

La création d'une CRM personnelle permet aux entrepreneurs et aux fondateurs de startups de mieux gérer et de suivre leurs relations avec les clients, les partenaires et les contacts potentiels. Cela peut aider à améliorer la communication, à suivre les opportunités de collaboration et à optimiser l'utilisation du temps et des ressources.

Comment les fondateurs de startups peuvent-ils mieux apprécier et célébrer leurs réussites ?

Les fondateurs de startups peuvent mieux apprécier et célébrer leurs réussites en prenant le temps de reconnaître et de célébrer les petits accomplissements au fil du temps, en partageant leurs expériences avec leur équipe et leur communauté, et en se fixant des objectifs à court et long terme à célébrer.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Introduction to Growth Strategies

The video begins with an introduction to Eric Phil Weiler, founder and CEO of Rival, a marketing innovation consultancy. Eric shares his 15 years of experience in growth, including his time as one of the first 15 employees at VaynerMedia. The discussion emphasizes the importance of marketing and brand building for startups, highlighting that while a great product is necessary, a strong brand is equally vital for sustainable long-term growth. Eric explains that changing consumer perception and behavior through storytelling is at the heart of brand marketing.

05:01

🤔 Understanding Marketing's Role

Eric delves into why marketing is often overlooked by startups, particularly those with a product or technology focus. He suggests that the intangible nature of branding can make it seem less urgent than product development. However, he argues that startups need to balance their focus on product with a strategic approach to marketing and brand building. Eric also discusses the evolution of marketing roles, from connecting product to customer needs to the modern understanding of marketing as a holistic approach to business growth.

10:03

🧐 Hiring the Right Marketing Talent

The conversation shifts to the topic of hiring marketing talent. Eric advises startups on when and how to hire marketers, emphasizing the importance of finding individuals who can bridge the gap between product and customer. He suggests that startups should assess their own strengths and weaknesses to determine what type of marketer they need. Eric also highlights the value of practical assessments, such as assignments or tasks, to gauge a candidate's fit and potential impact.

15:04

🗣️ The Importance of Customer Conversations

Eric stresses the necessity of engaging with potential customers, whether they've made a purchase or not. He advocates for direct conversations as a means to understand customer needs and preferences. While acknowledging the challenges of early-stage customer engagement, Eric encourages entrepreneurs to leverage their networks and to be proactive in seeking feedback. He also mentions the use of consumer research platforms and the importance of iterating product offerings based on market feedback.

20:05

📈 Growth Through Unlocking Value

Eric discusses the concept of growth through the lens of unlocking new or differentiated value in the market. He asserts that understanding customer needs is paramount to achieving growth and that businesses fail when they lose focus on their customers. He references the 'jobs to be done' framework as a methodology for deeply understanding customer needs and suggests that being customer-centric is the key to sustainable business growth.

25:06

🌟 Building Personal Brand

The discussion turns to personal branding, with Eric sharing his experiences and views on its importance for entrepreneurs. He believes that many people either overdo or underutilize personal branding, but most fail to invest enough in it. Eric sees personal branding as an investment, likening it to building a network that can be leveraged for various future endeavors. He encourages entrepreneurs to find their preferred modes of communication and to start documenting their journey, emphasizing the value of consistency and self-awareness in personal branding efforts.

30:06

🎥 Learning from Marketing Campaigns

Eric reflects on the role of marketing campaigns in business growth, cautioning against the allure of flashy ads that fail to deliver results. He argues that the true measure of a successful campaign is its impact on the business, not just its disruptiveness or creativity. Eric shares examples of campaigns that have caught his attention, such as Duolingo's presence on TikTok and Coinbase's Super Bowl ad, highlighting their effectiveness in engaging audiences and driving business outcomes.

35:09

💡 Embracing Entrepreneurial Realities

Eric calls for greater honesty and transparency in the entrepreneurial community, particularly regarding the challenges and struggles of starting and growing a business. He expresses concern that the often polished portrayal of success on social media can lead to feelings of inadequacy among other entrepreneurs. Eric advocates for sharing both the triumphs and the trials of entrepreneurship to foster a more balanced and supportive environment for those on the startup journey.

🛠️ Startup Hacks and Strategies

In the final part of the discussion, Eric and his guest share their startup 'hacks' or strategies for success. Eric talks about using email marketing to raise funds for his business and emphasizes the importance of knowing your audience and crafting relevant messages. He also mentions the value of maintaining a personal CRM to track and nurture professional relationships. His guest adds the importance of time management, recommending that entrepreneurs block time for both important tasks and downtime to ensure productivity and mental well-being.

Keywords

💡Croissance

La croissance est présentée comme le mot magique pour les startups, soulignant son importance capitale dans le succès et la survie d'une entreprise naissante. Dans le script, la croissance est associée à la capacité d'une entreprise à innover et à se développer durablement sur le long terme. Elle est mentionnée dans le contexte des défis auxquels les startups sont confrontées pour se démarquer et s'établir sur le marché.

💡Marque et marketing

Ces termes sont centraux dans la discussion sur l'importance de bâtir une identité forte et reconnaissable pour les startups. Le script met en avant que le marketing et la construction de la marque ne sont pas seulement essentiels pour la croissance, mais aussi pour la perception du consommateur et la différenciation sur le marché. Les exemples donnés illustrent comment une marque forte peut influencer les décisions d'achat et renforcer la fidélité des clients.

💡Valeur émotionnelle

La valeur émotionnelle est mise en avant comme un élément clé de la connexion entre la marque et les consommateurs. Le script explique que les humains ne prennent pas des décisions uniquement sur des bases logiques; les émotions jouent un rôle crucial. Cela souligne l'importance pour les startups de créer une marque qui résonne sur le plan émotionnel avec leur audience.

💡ADN marketing

L'expression 'ADN marketing' fait référence à l'importance d'intégrer les compétences et la pensée marketing au cœur même de l'équipe fondatrice d'une startup. Le script suggère que l'absence de cet ADN marketing dans l'équipe peut entraver la capacité de la startup à se commercialiser efficacement et à atteindre sa croissance souhaitée.

💡Centricité client

Ce concept est souligné comme essentiel pour le développement des produits et services d'une startup. En se concentrant sur les besoins et désirs du client, les entreprises peuvent s'assurer que leurs offres sont pertinentes et attractives. Le script décrit la centricité client comme une approche permettant de mieux comprendre et servir le marché cible.

💡Perspective produit

La perspective produit est discutée en contraste avec l'approche centrée sur le client. Elle met en lumière une tendance chez certains entrepreneurs de se concentrer principalement sur le produit ou la technologie au détriment de la connexion avec les besoins du client. Le script critique cette approche en montrant son insuffisance pour garantir le succès à long terme.

💡CRM personnel

Le CRM (Customer Relationship Management) personnel est mentionné comme un outil précieux pour les entrepreneurs pour gérer et développer leurs réseaux professionnels. Le script conseille d'utiliser un CRM personnel pour suivre et maintenir le contact avec les individus clés qui peuvent influencer positivement la croissance de l'entreprise.

💡Gestion du temps

La gestion efficace du temps est présentée comme cruciale pour les entrepreneurs, particulièrement en termes de priorisation des tâches importantes par rapport aux urgences. Le script recommande de bloquer des heures spécifiques pour se concentrer sur les initiatives stratégiques, soulignant que le succès dépend souvent de la capacité à travailler de manière proactive sur les objectifs à long terme.

💡Marketing de contenu

Le marketing de contenu est identifié comme une stratégie efficace pour engager le public cible et construire la marque. À travers l'exemple de Duolingo sur TikTok, le script illustre comment la création de contenus attrayants et pertinents peut non seulement divertir le public mais aussi renforcer la présence de la marque.

💡Authenticité

L'authenticité est valorisée comme un attribut essentiel pour les fondateurs et les marques. Le script appelle à une plus grande honnêteté dans la représentation des défis de l'entrepreneuriat, suggérant que partager les réalités des luttes et des échecs peut créer une connexion plus profonde avec le public et renforcer la crédibilité de la marque.

Highlights

Growth is crucial for startups and Eric Phil Weiler shares his expertise on harnessing its power.

A great product and a strong brand are essential for sustainable, long-term business growth.

Branding is about changing perception and behavior in the consumer market through storytelling.

Human decision-making is not solely based on rational logic, but also on emotions and brand perception.

Eric's experience at VaynerMedia and as MD for Europe provides valuable insights into marketing and brand growth.

Many startups lack marketing DNA in their founding teams, leading to a focus on product over brand.

Marketing should be seen as a way to connect the product to the customer, not just as advertising.

Eric suggests that someone in the company should be responsible for being the voice of the customer internally.

Hiring the right marketer involves culture fit and practical assignments to test their skills.

Personal brand building is an investment in one's career, and many founders don't do it enough.

Eric emphasizes the importance of talking to customers and potential customers to understand their needs.

All growth comes from unlocking new or differentiated value in the market, which requires understanding the customer.

The role of marketing is to drive growth of a brand and business, not just to create disruptive campaigns.

Duolingo's success on TikTok is an example of marketing that adds value and doesn't feel like traditional advertising.

Eric argues against the binary notion of being an entrepreneur or not, suggesting it's a spectrum.

The importance of investing in personal CRM to track and nurture professional relationships.

Time management is crucial for professional success; block time for important tasks, not just urgent ones.

Transcripts

[Music]

so growth is the magic word for startups

but how do you harness its power

our guest today is an expert in all

things growth he's going to share some

first-hand wisdom and a lot of really

cool tips his name is eric phil weiler

and he's the founder and ceo of rival

they're a marketing innovation

consultancy that helps businesses think

and act like challengers he himself he

is an absolute bona fide expert in

growth and he's been doing it for 15

years not only that he's one of the

first 15 employees at vaynermedia and

he's the md for europe yeah and that's

vaynermedia that's garyvee's business

pretty amazing stuff so today he's

sharing some of those secrets it's a

really great episode with some real

nuggets and some really actionable

content i really hope you guys enjoy the

show you work a lot of startups tell me

fundamentally like from your perspective

why is it that marketing and brand

building is just is so important and

why are you so passionate about it for

startups so i thought you were going to

ask me why more startups don't do it

well you're going to come for for some

reason i guess based on what we're

coming straight we're going to come on

today we're going to start with why it's

important and then why people aren't

doing a good job

i mean how could it not be important i

don't know it's interesting for me

you know obviously as a marketer when

you're a hammer everything's a nail or

you see the world full of nails it's

like of course brand and marketing is

important right

the way that you grow a business

sustainably in the long term is you have

a great product

and you have a great brand

you can do one of those things and grow

a business for a little bit of time but

if you want to have true long-term

sustainable growth it all comes back to

innovation of the product and of the

brand

another way of saying it more

practically is um

you know you grow a business through

changing perception and behavior

in the consumer market

the way you do that is through telling a

story a brand is what changes people's

perception about what they should do or

what they shouldn't do

another way of saying it is it's

everything that's wrapped around the

functional benefit that you deliver as a

product it's the emotional side of

things we as human beings don't just

function

functionally we don't make decisions

logically you know i saw your daniel

kahneman

in the uh in the table right next to us

right it's like it's been proven

and we all know at this point that we're

not creatures of solely rational

logical thought and so the way that we

interact with the world we look at you

know what i'm wearing what you're

wearing these brands that we choose to

associate ourselves with

so much of who we are

whether we know it or not whether we

like it or not is dictated by brands

and how we interact with them and how we

perceive them so

it's fundamental is the short answer i

think if you want to build a meaningful

long-term business you need to be

thinking about brand as much and

marketing as much as you're thinking

about product or commercials for that

matter

do you think that the reason that people

don't do that is

because

it's so intangible the brand piece

because you know when you start well i

didn't say intangible i said emotional i

think you can i know i think i think i

think it's a really good point i think

we should touch on that for a second

because

you can quantify you can measure the

impact a brand you can't always measure

all of it all the time

if you're doing it well meaning not

everything about how you do brands and

how you do marketing is short-term roi

you can't say that because you put your

logo on your sweater you're going to

generate more revenue for your business

over the next 90 days but you can

measure or i'm assuming you can measure

at this point

the value of having a stronger brand you

know you mentioned before we clicked

record some of the changes you did to

the color palette of the brand of your

business and the impact that that

actually had on the web track you can

measure it it is tangible not all of it

all the time

but you certainly can there's plenty of

studies up there out there

and and you know big businesses at this

point that actually quantify the value

of brands and more technology and more

businesses that are doing this on a

regular basis um

and so i think you know why more

companies don't do it is you do what you

know

right

i come from a marketing background i'm a

marketer and so that's why my answer to

the question of why is brand important

is like well why would it not be

important that's what i know but a lot

of startups don't have marketers and

their founding team they don't have

marketing dna

in that core of the organization so it

doesn't come as naturally to them you

know they focus on the product they

focus on the technology and and like i

was saying it's both its marketing and

product its brand and the value

proposition of what you bring to the

market but i think you need to recognize

as a founding team or as an early stage

entrepreneur even if it's just you

everybody has certain strengths and

weaknesses

and it tends to be especially if it's a

technology startup

that a lot of these teams don't have

brand or marketing in that team and i

think they need to find a way to balance

it out okay so we can accept the most

founders when they talk to businesses or

investors or wherever they talk

predominantly about their product

because that's where they're comfortable

because they know their product is

something that's different

but they don't realize that actually the

secret to success is doing a great

marketing campaign so they don't hire

people at the very beginning so if you

are gonna go out there

and hire someone you're not a technical

founder

the first question to me is okay should

i hire someone from day one is that or

when should i be hiring one that's the

first question but second of all who do

i hire like how do i

what skills am i looking for in a

marketer a day one am i looking for you

know an ex delivery or ex you know huge

cmo with loads of

loads of expense or do i look for

somebody who's really scrappy who's just

come out of uni or whatever and and just

can do lots of different things on tick

tock like what do i do who am i looking

for and also when do i hire them

so

i think to the first part of your

question of why don't more people focus

on this or why don't more people think

about this

i mean if you oversimplify things so

this dichotomy of either you can be

product centric or you can be customer

centric

there's a natural draw for us as humans

and certainly for you know the

stereotypical engineering technology

types to be much more focused on us what

we think is exciting what we're working

on our product our business we focus on

us right

what marketing does

is it brings the customer to the product

you know when somebody says marketing or

people listening when they think about

marketing they think of advertising

basically they think of okay what's that

campaign what does that brand look like

fundamentally the role of marketing is

to bridge the value of the product to a

need that's in the market

that's really what it does

so actually you know i'm sort of rival

six months ago but before that i was in

the fintech world for about two and a

half years and one of the co-founders in

the last business i was at was

co-founded monzo

and so he talked about um you know

branding and marketing at monzo in the

early days they didn't have a marketer

per se and actually there was this whole

conversation in the fintech world back

then

of we don't do marketing

and i'm using air quotes for the people

listening not watching because like i

would say to that like you do do

marketing you don't do advertising you

know now you see the monzo ads and the

revolut ads and transferwise and all

that on the buses and

tubes and all and everything you see it

everywhere you see all the advertising

but marketing is just connecting the

product to the customer and so monzo in

the early days just because of how

customer-centric they were just because

so much of that team was looking at

listening asking questions trying to get

feedback from the community they did

events to get people together to say hey

what are you looking for in a challenger

bank they created i think it's

community.monzo.com which you should

definitely go check out it's like a

reddit reddit style forum where people

can make suggestions for what they want

the product to be they brought the

customer into the product development

process

so if there's one actually you know

hopefully there's a couple takeaways for

people in this conversation but a big

one for me is don't think about

marketing as advertising think about it

as bringing the customer

into the business and so i think that's

why

that's probably why a lot of people

don't think about this is because they

think of marketing as advertising oh i

don't know that i'm not at a stage yet

to be doing advertising but actually

it's so much more fundamental than that

and you see that in a lot of the

businesses and the brands that are

successful like amonzo

in terms of going to hire somebody

you know

it depends is of course the answer

because it depends on the stage of the

business it depends on the founding team

it depends on who you are funding all

that stuff

but i think what i would say to try to

tee it up in a way that's helpful for

people

is whether or not you have a head of

marketing or a cmo or vp

somebody needs to be responsible for

being the voice of the customer

internally

and that is you know if you're doing it

right the role of marketing but it could

be you as the ceo it could be the header

product it could be your producer it

could be anybody that's the role that

you need to make sure is getting done as

a baseline

then you graduate from there and you

start to look at okay how do we actually

want to build our marketing function are

we going to be you know if you think of

the three types of um

three channels of marketing there's own

marketing there's paid marketing and

there's earned marketing right owned are

the channels that you own and operate

your website your social media etc paid

is paid advertising and earned is pr and

influence other people's attention or

other people that have already built the

attention of the audience you're trying

to reach which one of those you're going

to lean into so i think you as a as a

founding team or as a founder or as an

entrepreneur need to think about where

your strengths and weaknesses lie as a

business as an executive team and figure

out what type of marketer you need to

complement that

and then so much of it so much of

everything comes down to the reality

around you not the theory of how you

draw things up on paper so do you come

across a great person that maybe isn't

exactly

what you had in the job description but

you're going to find a way to get them

on board

um so it's um you know there's that mike

tyson quote i think about all the time

everybody's a plan until they get

punched in the face

that's a part of it yeah exactly part of

part of it is reacting to what's out

there and i think that's certainly true

with talent not just marketing talent

but all talent you know being at

vaynermedia in the early days we're

hiring a person a day i think i

calculated the other the other day in 15

my 15-year career i think i've hired

like 500 people

and so much of it is what walks in the

door and what doesn't walk in the door

and do you recognize good talent just

get it on board and figure everything

else out afterwards yep

yeah nice i like that a lot i want to

drill into two things you said there how

do you know what is good marketing

talent and what isn't so

i think culture fit matters most so

making sure that you are very clear on

the culture of your organization and how

you're testing for that in an interview

um

and then the other thing more

practically is

i think every i think nobody should hire

somebody without having them do some

type of assignment some type of task

because actually google did some

research a while back that looked at the

efficacy of unstructured informal

interviews and predicting the success of

someone in a job role and it was like 17

or something ridiculously low meaning if

you sit down and just have a

conversation hey tell me about yourself

explain to me that how would you handle

this type of situation like the basic

stuff it's very very low because that's

not what it's like to work with somebody

it's not just sitting and having an

informal conversation it's actually

tackling a project together

you know working on something together

and so what we do for rival and what did

11 of us and when i eventually figured

out what we did at vaynermedia

you always give somebody an assignment

to do you don't have them work on it for

too long and actually arrival we pay

people for that time because i think

that's just the right thing to do

um

but i think that's practically the thing

that i would do is figure it out either

either you if you know what type of

projects this how to marketing is going

to need to work on or this marketing

manager whatever the level is or talk to

somebody who would know

and say hey yeah have them do this

give them this type of brief and see

what they come back with and you're

looking for x y and z so make it

practical make it tangible

do something with them do some type of

project with them to see what it's like

to actually work together

fantastic that's a really good advice to

share like that a lot and i can

definitely attest to that going back to

my second question

you talk about like

having that conversation with the

customer bringing that voice of the

customer into the business

how do i practically do that

particularly when i don't have any so

you either have customers or you have

potential customers otherwise you don't

have to you could not exactly right

correct so there are people out there

who either have bought or could

potentially buy what you're selling

and you gotta go talk to them

like that's it you know like

the most important things in life not

just in marketing or business tend to be

very simple in theory but hard to do in

reality or you know it just takes time

it just takes kind of blood sweat and

tears

there are shortcuts there are you know

consumer research platforms and

technologies that you can use run focus

groups online and like all that stuff

honestly if you're an early stage

entrepreneur just make a list of the

people that you know who are potential

customers or make a list of the people

you know who know potential customers

and just get started getting started

going and having conversations with them

take notes after you do

see how things piece together and it's

going to start to give you more of a

sense it's you know you mentioned eric

reese before we started recording i

think it was before we started recording

as well lean startup it's the same thing

you know such a benefit for me being in

the fintech world for a few years after

having been in services companies for so

long and advertising agencies etc

just the idea that in ad agencies we

didn't think about iterating our product

offering with the market now just seems

crazy to me

so at rival i spent six months just

having conversations with senior

marketers

i'm thinking about doing this how do you

get that need solved internally oh

that's interesting what do you think

about that what if i did this type of

thing a lot of conversations like at

least for me and maybe this is coming

from the gary vaynerchuk school of

thought

like there's no shortcut you have to

just scale the unscalable and sometimes

you just got to put the hours in to be

able to do that so i would start there

now as you start a business or scale a

business then yes you can run focus

groups you can do online surveys

you can run you know some of the stuff

that we're doing at rival is actually

using what we call micro media

so small amounts of paid media small

amounts of content usually on social

media platforms to actually test

an offering or a story or a pitch it's

kind of like a b optimization on a

website so there's more complicated ways

to do it but if most of the people

listening are early stage entrepreneurs

or soon-to-be early stage entrepreneurs

just start having questions with your

network

i couldn't agree with that more i say to

i think if there is one message there if

you are going to over-index on anything

when you start your business or even

throughout your business you're going to

over-index anywhere it's talking to your

customers 100 it's never going

to lead you wrong it's just not because

they're the ones who buying from you and

look you have to

you know um

the mum test is one of the best books

you can ever read for that as well you

know because i

we had an incident recently where we ran

a campaign

and um

i was talking to all the customers

i am

very energetic i'm

i'm a sales guy so i'm compelling and

i'm like is this gonna be

amazing yeah it's gonna be amazing oh my

god and then you don't get any

commitment from you're like what's going

on why don't they like it you know

because

there is a way to talk to customers

don't go in there and bully them and say

look this is what you want isn't it this

is what you want you know have a genuine

open conversation with them um and try

to learn from that discussion rather

than trying to just get a validation

yeah your idea um and i think it's uh

but yeah if you're going to over index

anywhere and you say i'm glad you said

that over index i think another way of

thinking of it is all growth comes from

unlocking new or differentiated value in

a market

it's solving a need that people have in

a way that somebody else hasn't done yet

and usually that's delivering a product

that's better in a faster way or maybe

it's cheaper but it all comes down to

understanding the customer you can't

unlock that value and therefore you

can't grow a business without

understanding what their needs are

another book that i'd throw out is um

that's one of my favorites it's actually

not a marketing book i think it's more

of a product book or general innovation

but it's uh competing against luck

clayton christensen have you read that

one no but i will definitely gotta check

it out it's the one that i always

recommend um so clayton christensen and

a few other people

um i think it was just before this book

but it kind of comes together in this

book come up with the concept of jobs to

be done if you heard of that so it's

basically um i'm sure you've heard of

the saying of people don't buy a quarter

inch drill or they don't want a quarter

inch drill they want a quarter inch hole

in the wall

so it's like you don't buy a product you

buy the solution that the product brings

you

and so essentially it all comes down in

the methodology that's kind of around

this idea of jobs to be done in

consumers lives it all comes down to

understanding the customer there are you

know history is littered with businesses

that have failed because they were not

customer-centric enough probably almost

every single one

trying to think of an example that

wouldn't be

and i don't think there's a single

example of a business

that hasn't that has been too

customer-centric that has failed because

they're too focused on the customer

so it really all comes down to that and

that's kind of

why you know when i talk about marketing

or when i get brought on to kind of be

the marketing guy i'm like yeah i can

talk about marketing but usually most

people are thinking about advertising

marketing is about being more

customer-centric as a business and

that's where all growth comes from

i love that i really love that i will

read that book we'll put the uh

in the show notes moving on slightly so

you um you come from the church of

garyvee um the um and

i'm um

i'm an absolute worshiper um the uh the

content pyramid for anyone who hasn't

doesn't live their life by the content

pyramid change it

it's i think it's sensational

but he talks a lot about personal brand

and obviously he's the king of it so in

your experience of

um working with startups particularly

tell me about whether your opinion about

building personal ground as a founder or

with the team and whether people do it

too much or they do it badly just tell

me about your opinions about that well

there's definitely some people that do

it too much there's definitely some

people that do it badly but i think

there's many many many more

probably most the people listening that

don't do it enough

or just haven't kind of gotten over that

hump haven't gotten that nudge to be

like okay i just gotta get started

getting started with this

the way i think of it is it's an

investment

every hour that you spend

you know coming on a podcast or putting

out a post on linkedin or speaking at an

event or just building your network it's

an investment in whatever you want to do

in the future it's like cash for your

career because you can spend the value

that you've created in your personal

brand in whatever way you want to it

could be this business it could be the

next business it could be you want to be

a musician you want to be an artist you

want to start minting nfts

you get to own that

and so that's something that i think

took me too long even working for gary

for seven years in total it took me

actually i wasn't working for him

anymore i was in new york for my last

business and i had a meeting with him

and he's like you need to start posting

more on linkedin

once a day start posting on linkedin i

was like okay you know what this is the

nudge that i need and i started doing it

and it was probably four years ago and

like look it's not like i'm a

you know influencer on linkedin or

anything like that but it's definitely

brought me value and it's helped get

rival off the ground because i had a bit

bigger network i had a little bit more

awareness

and so i think you know whatever it is

you you need

i think so much comes down to

self-awareness in life as well as in

business right like knowing who you are

knowing what you're good at knowing what

you're not good at and so how that

translates to personal brand is

for me i like having conversations with

interesting people i like writing

um

i'm not as much kind of like the

video big stage big audience type of guy

and so my focus is i love doing things

like this just having a chat and there

happens to be a microphone here and i

love writing you know the conversations

that i have during the week i jot down

kind of little nuggets of what i find

interesting and then eventually i sit

down and type them up into linkedin

posts and i put them out that way that's

stuff i would do anyway

because it's interesting for me to learn

that stuff and i learn it by kind of

like documenting the process of the

conversations that i'm having week to

week so a lot of that comes from the

content pyramid and another thing that

gary used to say is document don't

create

and so that's kind of how i do it is

like i'll probably take a thought from

this conversation jot it down in my

notes and then at some point you'll see

it turn up as a linkedin post

so i guess i'm saying a couple different

things

know what you like and what you don't

like and lean into that in terms of how

you want to build a personal brand not

everybody needs a youtube show not

everybody needs a podcast there are

plenty of ways to get your story and

your thoughts out there

document what you do week to week

because there's probably an audience

that's going to find it interesting and

the most important thing

just get started getting started start

putting out a little bit it takes time

but every hour that you put in is an

investment that you're going to be able

to withdraw for whatever you want to in

the future down the line

i love that what is an example of a

really great

campaign that you've seen recently or

does it have to be a specific sort of

name and shame one way you think it what

is a typical mistake that people make

with campaigns and you see it kind of

quite often so it's interesting so the

role of marketing is to drive growth of

a brand in business right yeah so

actually from the outside

if you say good or what was the was the

word used disruptive yeah okay

disruptive fine

i think i heard what i wanted to hear

disruptive i can definitely comment on

but my point i think still stands and

and i think will be valuable for people

listening

marketing is a means to an end

right so much you know i spent 10 years

in the advertising agency world and one

of the things that i

very strongly disliked about it is

everybody got so excited about the ads

you know like oh it wasn't that amazing

wasn't that so cool like let's go submit

this for an award so much of that stuff

to me i'm much more interested in the

business what's the impact that it

actually had on the business and so you

can't know that from the outside so

there's so many people that pontificate

about like what good marketing is and

what good advertising is like it doesn't

matter if you don't know whether or not

it had an impact on the business

disruptive

you can speak to because that's kind of

more subjective and you can have an

opinion about that from the outside an

example of that just real quick you

fast.com

or fast.co who uh um it's a great story

of that they um

they were investing by um uh stripe they

raised 125 million uh in three years

they went from nothing to being worth a

billion um dom

the the tom the holy runs it um we dml

but he's a really great guy i really

like him

they

spent

125 million over the course of three 125

million they were burning 10 million a

month

they made 600 grand in revenue

now everyone's like these guys are

amazing the brand's incredible

they're growing they're so massive

they're putting their name on race cars

they've got chain smokers coming to

their events

amazing campaigns they did this thing

where like

they were showing how you know how fast

one click payment was and what they do

is they say they pick a picture of um

someone um a video of someone wearing

regular clothes

and then they would uh touch something

and then or something would be thrown at

them and then they'd be wearing fast

clothes it's really cool little stint

it's just great that's how fast

everything is

and um

but made no money

but just made didn't make any money so

like you know that's just an example

they have like an amazing campaign to

look on the outside and you're like this

is incredible i really enjoyed this it

didn't work out as a dating brand um

that i think everyone will know but i

know the guys so i don't want to name

them

and they do all these amazing pr stunts

and everyone's like they get tens of

thousands of likes on on linkedin yeah

yeah you know like it's just like

amazing from the outside but then

ultimately you're right like it means to

end if you're not winning customers

then what's the internet what's

interesting because i think whether

you're a big company or you've raised

big money from vcs

sometimes with bigger budgets you get a

little bit less efficient with how you

spend it and i'm being kind there

another way of saying that is i think

you can end up wasting a lot of money

yeah particularly in like these big

sponsorship deals or pr or

certain types of advertising where you

know you can quantify anything you can

find data about anything but sometimes

it's what you want to hear as opposed to

is it actually having the result that it

should we're doing some research that

we're releasing this week hopefully this

is the last week of april so hopefully

we're going to be putting it out this

week

um working with imperial college on what

what is it about successful challenger

brands what are they doing differently

with their marketing and so one of the

one of the trends that we're looking at

we call it the puffer fish challenger

which basically just means these tiny

brands are able to puff themselves up to

be so much bigger than their business

actually is because of how smart they

are with how they spend their media

so constraints drive creativity which i

think is really interesting right it's

the whole thing of like why twitter was

140 characters and people thought that

was cool because you had to get your

thought down in a certain kind of way

and so actually the budget constraints

of startups makes them spend their media

dollars in more efficient and then

eventually more effective ways

which i think is really interesting um

if you have not checked out

duolingo on tick tock

set aside an afternoon

and go have a good time with that it is

unbelievable so duolingo the language

app 141 days straight mate i'm in have

you have you seen it i'm on 141 days

straight on i'm do a lingo but have you

seen them on tick tock no i haven't okay

enjoy uh it's really good it just goes

to show

people will

people don't like advertising they like

good content

to me duolingo on tiktok is the best

tech talk account that i follow it just

happens to be a brand and i guess you

could call it advertising because it's

coming from a brand but when you see it

it does not check the box of what you're

gonna think traditional advertising

should be so that's one 100 disruptive i

have no idea how they actually get away

with that

um

coinbase

so in the us for the most recent super

bowl

coinbase did an ad that was just a

minute and keep in mind

a minute super bowl ad is like 10

million dollars or something just a qr

code bouncing across the screen

does it for a minute

talk about disruptive like it melted the

advertising industry because people were

like what are what are they doing you

know super bowl ads have celebrities and

they're these like glamorous stories and

like big stunts it was just

qr code

f1 drive to survive

very good yeah i mean one of my big

philosophies is i think modern marketing

is about thinking and acting more like a

media company than a marketer

because in a world where there are so

many brands pumping out so much content

competing for limited attention

the brands that win are the ones that

put out content or experiences events

that add value to the audience they're

trying to reach

what type of business

focuses on adding value to an audience

to media business their business is

attention they have to put out content

that people want to spend time with

otherwise they go out of business

and so another way of saying that is

like it's marketing that's much more

customer centric

and so f1 drive to survive is brilliant

they'd had such a hard time cracking the

us market and i don't know what the

numbers are but to what we were

discussing of good marketing actually

has an impact to grow the business

i know for sure they have grown

viewership which is their core business

in the us because of what they've done

with netflix the other example i uh

throughout there

michelin michelin tires created the

michelin fine dining guide

to find ways for more people to drive

they added value through creating

content like as a media company as a

publisher and i have no idea whether

it's still part of the same company but

you know this is not a new thing this

has been around for a hundred years if

you add value to the audience you're

trying to reach through content aka

marketing or through your and or through

your product like your business will

grow it's pretty basic but to everything

we were saying simple in theory heart

and execution i love that i love it you

blow my mind and i love it

okay so we've got a

where we talk about the startup sinbin

what is something that you want expelled

from the startup world

i don't know if it's expelled but i

think people need to be more honest and

transparent with what it's like to be an

entrepreneur particularly an early stage

entrepreneur this is hard

it's stressful it's complicated you feel

like you're doing a million things wrong

you are doing a million things wrong you

make so many mistakes there's so many

things that you want to do all over

again every once in a while something

good happens

you get to launch something somebody

says something nice somebody joins your

team and yet if you look at everybody's

instagram if you look at everybody's

linkedin

it all seems like it's

you know rainbows and sunshine and

everything's going amazing and i get it

like that's human nature and it's also

brand you know you're putting yourself

out there you're putting out the best

version of yourself

but i think that there are so many

people who are struggling

and they're struggling in part because

when they look out in the world when

they look out in this little community

of entrepreneurs or linkedin or

instagram or whatever it is they only

see people that are succeeding and

they're like what's wrong with me

and so i think we need to be much more

honest and i'm trying

at the same time

you know i do put out the good news as

well of course i do but i'm trying to

balance that with just a little bit more

honesty and a little bit more

transparency and a little bit more

realism about how hard it is to be an

entrepreneur and i'm hoping that in

doing that and if we can get other

people to do that with us that it will

help some people out there because i

think there's so many people that burn

out

you know you don't have to have like a

mental breakdown it can just be like

your week's a lot harder because you

think you're doing it wrong and so i

think there needs to be more balance

story about just like how hard it is to

be an entrepreneur that's one of the

things i'd like to change i love that

but that's the thing i mean like you

know we just met and are just getting to

know each other but i think we have a

similar

share a similar

i don't know sentiment or philosophy

it's like

or curse maybe

it's about the climb rather than it is

the peak you know it's about the

progress not the destination so it's

like and that's a tough thing i think to

sometimes live with

for myself and also my wife i'm sure but

it's like cool you got there now what's

the next thing yeah i know as soon as

you get yourself a mountain you all you

do is think about where's the next

biggest one around yeah totally and and

i think that that can be really it can

be a blessing and a curse and i feel

like i'm wired this way kind of get the

sense that you're wired this way too

you gotta

leverage the benefits of that

and try to minimize the downsides of

that because that can be really

frustrating if you know you

that basically means that you're always

climbing that there's no kind of benefit

and one of the things that i've

definitely not done a good job of for

myself or from my teams as i built them

is kind of celebrating the successes

because i'm like okay what's on what's

on to the next thing one other thing

that i'll throw out there in terms of

what i think needs to get changed in the

entrepreneurial community and

conversations around this and this is

something i actually fundamentally

disagree with gary on and i think what

he says about it

does not help a lot of people

he said and i don't know if he still

says it but he had this thing of like

you're either an entrepreneur or you're

not

you either are

so suffocated by working for somebody

else

that you can't stand it and you have to

have your own company or you have to do

your own thing

or you're someone who can have a job and

that's fine but you're not an

entrepreneur i totally disagree with

that because i think it's a spectrum i

think you can be entrepreneurial all the

way to

gary who like literally could not work

for anybody ever

to someone who never wants to be an

entrepreneur and that's totally fine but

you can be a spectrum in between i think

myself if i play out my career 100 times

i don't know

probably less than 50 of them 35 41

of those end up with me starting my own

company plenty of them don't i don't

think that i would be like a corporate

guy

for 50 years but i would work in the

vaynermedias of this world i would work

in the 11 fs of this world and probably

be probably be pretty happy and it was

kind of this

convergence of

circumstance and luck and

timing and all these things that led to

me starting my own company but you don't

you don't

it's okay if you don't feel like you are

yes i absolutely need to you can try

being an entrepreneur and there's risk

in it of course so make sure that you

know what you're risking but like you

can go do it and then you can go get

another job and maybe you can come back

to it at some point

so i think this idea of like you have to

be an entrepreneur or you're not an

entrepreneur i don't think it's binary i

agree with you charlie and you can be an

entrepreneur in a business for example

our producer of the show rosie she

she

runs a business yeah within our business

yeah totally that she did that's great

for a lot of people that's probably

better

yeah

you're less worried about whether you're

gonna get your paycheck or have to pay

for someone else yeah yeah yeah but you

still get that buzz of building

something from scratch yeah you know so

i think there's something in that we had

a few people come on the show and i

think we should turn it into a segment

on here who share

their startup hacks

okay and i love my starter pack for

everyone is um

is gmass and automated emailing yeah

okay

so what like sending how does that work

for you so gmask is a native app this is

within gmail and it allows you to send

um a mass email to people i raised i

raised this is my i talk about this all

the time

i raised half a million pounds for my

business

using email marketing okay didn't know

any of these people at all never met any

of them before just wrote a marketing

campaign on email got someone else to do

the research and find the investors for

me um and then i got there that list i

wrote an email um did an a b test on it

and then set up the follow-ups within

gmail sent out it took me four hours of

work to raise half a million pounds wow

in terms of the print obviously i see

the pitching as well and some of those

pictures were horrific but something but

the point is i got there and i would and

i would never been able to contact 3 000

investors

any other way you know and that that was

just a hack you know now i teach i've

written an article about it um there's a

chapter in my book about it like i just

it's such a i think that is a people

don't understand the value of automated

email marketing and people like oh it

sounds a bit spammy

no it doesn't write a good email then

yeah yeah yeah think more about the copy

yeah make it more relevant what startup

hack do you have would you share

everything ultimately comes down to

what you can do

but also who you know i think the second

part of it is vastly undervalued it

doesn't get talked about like you go to

school

or you get a job everybody's so focused

on how do i learn to do that thing how

do i do that thing well how do i add

this thing to my cv how do i get this

degree learning that thing the topic

so much of life certainly business and

certainly a startup comes down to who

you know and i think that needs a lot

more attention a lot more time a lot

more diligence a lot more discipline uh

for anybody and so one hack is investing

in a personal crm

if you don't have that already so again

i wish i'd started this way earlier but

it's probably it was when i moved to

london so it was probably six or seven

years ago

um i started a spreadsheet all the

people that i meet

and so now i've got you know there's

like 200 people or something in there

and like some of them i'll never you

know cross paths with again but like

i've got it all in there and every once

in a while like this flight um back to

new york last week i'll just go through

the whole thing and be like oh i haven't

talked to that guy in a while i haven't

talked to that girl in a while let me

drop them a note and just see what's up

so valuable to actually keep track of

that for some people it can be linked in

but i'm sure if you're like me like

there's so much people connect with you

on linkedin and it's like not actually

clean data so invest in a personal crm

maybe there's tools out there last time

i looked there wasn't anything that

looked good just use a spreadsheet

the other thing is um i think time

management is one of the biggest factors

for professional success and i wouldn't

say undervalued because i think so many

books get written about it so much

so much of it gets talked about

i don't think you need anything

complicated

what i would recommend what i do for

myself is i block two hours every day

when i don't have meetings and when i

work on the most important things not

the most urgent things

and so for me that's in the morning

because that's when i'm most productive

but find the time make sure that you're

blocking the time during the week and

like literally do it because if you're

anything like me you do what your

calendar tells you to

so if somebody drops a meeting in your

calendar or if you put a meeting and

you're gonna go do what that thing is

the urgent always takes precedent over

the important unless you prioritize the

important so putting time in i call it

downtime put in down time in your

calendar every week ideally every day

when you work on the most important

things not the most urgent things

mate

my first one has blown my mind

the personal crm

i love that you must have

something like that at this point right

i love that i love that i

literally have this i mean i i've got a

pretty good memory so i'm just like i

just go into my personal rolodex in my

head and i sit down and i think to

myself put myself in a mind palace and i

think yeah who can help me solve that

problem and i would literally i will

literally sit down and close my eyes and

just try to remember everyone that i

know to just go through a list because

you're like but you probably remember

two percent of them i know i it

up and here's the thing it's like you

know and this is what i find so exciting

about

life about career about networking about

building a business is you never know

yeah you know i think of the job i've

i've never actually gotten a job from

like applying for one i've applied for

jobs but that's i've gotten them because

i know people yeah right

and

i think of the jobs that i've gotten or

the contracts that i've won and like

sometimes it's like that random person

you just like randomly took a call with

or met for a coffee or came on a podcast

for and like two years down the line

they're like oh by the way you should go

talk to this person and all of a sudden

you've got a new job yeah it's like you

never know you you just don't know great

this been amazing thanks so much

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you