Building A Second Brain - Scott Young and Tiago Forte

Summary

Thiago Forte分享了他的新书《构建第二大脑》的核心理念，讨论了如何通过智能笔记和信息组织来提升思考和创造力。他强调了从信息稀缺到信息过剩的转变，以及如何通过提炼关键信息来构建有效的知识系统。Forte还介绍了他的CODE方法，帮助人们在创意过程中捕捉、组织、提炼和表达思想。此外，他还讨论了如何通过PERA系统将笔记转化为可操作的行动，以及他父亲作为艺术家对他创作过程的影响。

Takeaways

• 🧠 构建第二大脑的核心理念是帮助人们更智能地记笔记，组织生活中的信息，并以此提升思考能力。
• 📚 Thiago Forte的书籍《Building a Second Brain》强调了有效笔记和信息组织在学习和个人成长中的重要性。
• 🌐 在信息极度丰富的今天，我们面临着从信息稀缺到信息过剩的挑战，需要新的策略来管理知识。
• 🔄 笔记的过程应从记忆扩展（Remember）、连接（Connect）到创造（Create）三个阶段逐步发展。
• 📈 通过PERA系统（Projects, Areas, Resources, Archives）来组织笔记，确保信息在需要时能够被轻松检索。
• 🚀 创造性工作不仅仅是关于灵感和天赋，还需要系统性和方法论来实现想法的具体化。
• 📝 记笔记不仅是为了扩展记忆，更是一个思考和理解自己想法的工具。
• 🛠️ 使用数字工具来构建第二大脑，可以更好地适应现代工作环境和提高效率。
• 🔗 通过建立信息之间的链接，可以发现意想不到的洞见和创意。
• 🎯 完成创造性项目是现代知识工作中最重要的进步单位，需要有意识地推动项目完成。
• 👨‍🎨 Thiago的父亲作为艺术家，展示了即使是创意工作也需要有条理和系统性的方法来实现成功。

Q & A

什么是构建第二大脑的核心理念？

构建第二大脑的核心理念是将个人笔记和信息组织成一个系统化的知识库，以帮助人们更好地整理生活中的信息，提高思考和创造力。

为什么作者认为大多数人不擅长记笔记？

作者认为大多数人不擅长记笔记是因为他们缺乏系统性的方法来回顾和整理笔记，导致信息收集变得无效，无法在需要时找到和应用相关知识。

CODE框架是什么，它如何帮助创造性过程？

CODE框架是作者提出的一个创造性过程框架，代表捕获（Capture）、组织（Organize）、提炼（Distill）和表达（Express）。它通过标准化创造性工作流程，帮助人们更有效地管理信息和创意。

作者如何使用数字化工具来构建自己的第二大脑？

作者推荐全面采用数字化工具来构建第二大脑，并通过建立一个名为'第二大脑资源指南'的在线资源，持续更新和推荐各种笔记应用、网页剪辑器、音频或视频转录应用等工具。

PERA系统是什么，它如何帮助组织笔记？

PERA系统是一种组织笔记的方法，代表项目（Projects）、领域（Areas）、资源（Resources）和档案（Archives）。它通过将信息分类并按优先级排序，帮助人们将笔记变得可操作，确保在正确的时间遇到正确的信息。

作者如何将记笔记与思考结合起来？

作者认为记笔记不仅仅是为了扩展记忆，更是一个思考的工具。通过将笔记放在一起，人们可以发现它们之间不曾注意到的关系，从而促进创新思维和理论的形成。

作者的父亲如何影响他对创造性工作的看法？

作者的父亲是一位艺术家，他展示了即使是创造性工作也需要系统性和结构性。这种认识使作者意识到，要想在创意领域取得成功，不仅需要才华和想法，还需要有条不紊的工作流程。

作者如何看待数字工具与纸质工具在记笔记方面的比较？

作者认为，尽管一些原则可以应用于纸质笔记，但他认为我们已经到了一个转折点，即我们的设备无处不在，软件足够强大、易用，且连接性几乎普遍，因此他推荐全面采用数字化工具。

在构建第二大脑的过程中，作者如何处理信息的过载问题？

作者通过区分可操作信息和非可操作信息来处理信息过载问题。他强调了从信息稀缺心态转向信息丰富环境下的心态转变，并鼓励人们专注于提取信息中的'信号'，即主要观点和核心要点。

作者在书中提到的'记忆扩展'阶段是指什么？

'记忆扩展'阶段是指通过外部存储系统（如笔记应用）来卸载那些不需要记忆的信息，从而为思考、想象和创造提供空间。这是构建第二大脑的初级阶段，目的是释放大脑带宽，以便进行更深层次的思考。

作者如何描述他在写作书籍时的过程？

作者描述了他的写作过程是将大型项目分解为多个小项目，每个项目都有其自己的目标、约束和里程碑。他通过识别可以管理的最小任务来逐步推进每个项目，并在完成一个阶段后触发下一个阶段。

Outlines

00:00

📚 与 Thiago Forte 探讨构建第二大脑

本段落介绍了与 Thiago Forte 的对话，他写了一本关于如何高效记笔记和组织信息的书《Building a Second Brain》。对话中讨论了记笔记的挑战、信息过载问题以及如何通过系统化方法改进记笔记的过程。Thiago 分享了他个人的经历，以及他如何通过创建一个框架来解决信息组织的问题。

05:01

🧠 构建第二大脑的理念与重要性

在这一段中，Thiago 解释了构建第二大脑的概念，即创建一个外部知识库来帮助我们更好地处理和回顾信息。他强调了在信息丰富的环境中，我们传统的信息稀缺心态已经过时，需要新的策略来处理大量的信息。他还讨论了通过减少笔记数量并专注于核心要点来提高效率的重要性。

10:02

📈 Thiago Forte 的 CODE 系统

Thiago Forte 介绍了他的创意过程框架——CODE系统，这个系统包括捕获（Capture）、组织（Organize）、蒸馏（Distill）和表达（Express）四个阶段。CODE系统旨在帮助人们更有效地管理创意项目，确保在适当的时间进行适当的工作。

15:03

📖 写作过程中的笔记系统应用

在这一段中，讨论了 Thiago 在写作《Building a Second Brain》一书过程中如何应用他的笔记系统。他解释了如何将大型项目分解为更小的部分，并通过系统化的方法逐步完成。他还提到了如何利用自己的建议来克服创作障碍，并分享了关于如何将笔记转化为实际行动的见解。

20:05

🤔 笔记作为思考工具

Thiago 讨论了笔记不仅仅是记忆的扩展，还是思考和创造的工具。他提出了三个阶段：记忆、连接和创造，强调了通过外部化想法来释放认知带宽，从而促进创新思维。他还提到了笔记之间的关系如何帮助我们发现新的想法和联系。

25:07

🔗 与其他生产力系统的比较

在这一段中，Thiago 讨论了他的第二大脑方法与 David Allen 的 Getting Things Done (GTD) 系统和 Zettelkasten 系统的关系。他强调了第二大脑方法的重点是将非行动性信息（如笔记、引用、研究等）转化为可操作的行动。他还提到了数字化工具在这一过程中的重要性。

30:08

🛠️ 选择笔记工具的建议

Thiago 提供了关于如何选择和使用笔记工具的建议。他强调了找到适合个人风格的工具的重要性，并介绍了他的第二大脑资源指南，这是一个免费的公共资源，用于帮助人们根据自己的需求选择和更新笔记工具。

35:09

🎨 艺术家父亲的启示

Thiago 分享了他的艺术家父亲如何影响他对创意工作的看法。他强调了系统性和结构性在创作过程中的重要性，以及这如何帮助他的父亲保持高产并成功地将艺术转化为生活。他还讨论了这种系统化的方法如何适用于所有知识工作者，以帮助他们完成创意项目。

🙏 结语与感谢

在最后一段中，Thiago 感谢 Scott 提供的交流机会，并强调了记笔记对于个人成长和学习的重要性。他鼓励听众访问 buildingasecondbrain.com 来获取更多资源，并对他的书《Building a Second Brain》表示感谢。

Keywords

💡第二大脑

第二大脑是指通过智能笔记和信息组织来扩展个人记忆和思维能力的概念。在视频中，作者强调了创建第二大脑的重要性，认为它可以帮助人们更好地处理和利用信息，从而提高思考和创造力。

💡智能笔记

智能笔记是指利用数字工具和系统化方法来记录、整理和回顾信息的过程。在视频中，作者讨论了如何通过智能笔记来提高学习效率和创造力，以及如何将这些笔记转化为可操作的行动。

💡信息过载

信息过载是指个体在面对大量信息时感到无法有效处理和吸收的状态。在视频中，作者提到了信息过载的问题，并提出了通过建立第二大脑来管理和筛选信息的解决方案。

💡创造性过程

创造性过程是指个体在创造新想法、产品或艺术作品时所经历的一系列步骤和活动。视频中，作者强调了通过建立第二大脑来支持和促进创造性过程的重要性。

💡知识工作

知识工作是指依赖知识和信息处理能力来完成工作任务的活动。在视频中，作者讨论了知识工作者如何通过有效的信息管理和笔记技巧来提高工作效率和创造力。

💡行动情境

行动情境是指笔记和信息在特定情况下可以被用来采取行动的组织方式。视频中，作者介绍了PERA系统，这是一种根据行动情境来组织笔记的方法。

💡数字化工具

数字化工具是指用于存储、处理和分享信息的电子设备和软件应用程序。在视频中，作者讨论了选择和使用数字化工具来建立和维护第二大脑的重要性。

💡信息稀缺与信息过剩

信息稀缺与信息过剩分别描述了信息获取的困难和信息量过多的状态。视频中，作者指出人类历史上长期处于信息稀缺环境，而现代社会则面临信息过剩的挑战。

💡信号与噪声

信号与噪声是信息理论中的概念，用来描述有用信息（信号）和无关信息（噪声）的区分。在视频中，作者用这个概念来强调在信息过剩的环境中提取关键信息的重要性。

💡个人成长

个人成长是指个体在知识、技能、情感等方面不断发展和提升的过程。视频中，作者提到个人成长与笔记技巧的结合，强调了记录和反思在个人发展中的作用。

Highlights

Thiago Forte分享了关于如何构建第二大脑的理念，这是一个关于如何有效整理信息和提高思考效率的系统。

作者通过个人经验强调了很多人在记笔记和信息整理方面存在的挑战，尤其是面对大量信息时如何有效处理。

Thiago Forte提出了CODE框架，用于优化创作过程，包括捕获、组织、提炼和表达四个阶段。

在信息过载的时代，我们需要从信息稀缺的心态转变为面对信息丰富的环境，学会筛选和提炼关键信息。

Thiago Forte通过自己的书籍创作过程，展示了如何将第二大脑的概念应用于实际项目中。

作者讨论了将任务分解为小块的重要性，以及如何识别和处理实际上是项目而非单一任务的待办事项。

Thiago Forte强调了在创作过程中，习惯和冲刺的结合使用，以及如何在面对机会时迅速行动。

笔记不仅是记忆的扩展，还是思考和发现新联系的工具，有助于更深入地理解主题。

通过构建第二大脑，人们可以经历记忆、连接和创造三个阶段，从而提高创造力和生产力。

Thiago Forte解释了PERA系统，这是一种组织笔记的方法，可以帮助人们根据行动情境整理信息。

作者分享了个人故事，说明了即使是艺术家也需要系统性和结构化的方法来实现创造力和产出。

Thiago Forte推荐了buildingasecondbrain.com网站，作为获取有关第二大脑方法和资源的中心枢纽。

Scott H. Young建议听众检查Thiago Forte的书籍，认为这对于个人成长和学习是一个重要的补充。

Thiago Forte强调了数字工具在构建第二大脑中的重要性，并推荐了适合数字时代的工具和应用程序。

作者讨论了如何在创作书籍时面对挑战，并使用自己的建议来克服这些挑战。

Thiago Forte提到了他的书籍中提供的资源指南，帮助读者找到适合他们的笔记工具和应用程序。

Transcripts

well i'm really excited today to be

talking to thiago forte because he has

written a very interesting book building

a second brain which is all about how do

you take smart notes how do you organize

all the information in your life how do

you think better with that and i think

this is a very useful topic this is a

conversation i've really wanted to have

because my audience often asked me you

know like how should i take notes and i

should do that but i don't really see

myself as much of an expert on that i

feel like i struggle often with

note-taking tools and systems so i'm

very happy to be having this

conversation even for my own selfish

benefit with thiago right now so maybe

you can just kick things off just tell

us what what is the idea behind building

a second brain and why do you think it's

important for people

yeah absolutely i'm super happy to be

here scott

i've watched your your uh your

trajectory over the past few years and

we actually share a

a publisher who was a

she published you when she was at her

previous you know company um but i

remember calling you for a reference and

you've been a guy

thank you

yeah so i was really on the ground floor

of of this book here because uh we both

worked with stephanie yeah

yeah

yeah there's definitely all sorts of

connections between our work i mean yeah

the one you mentioned i for years had

the same question you know you you take

as a as a professional learner you know

a lifelong learner someone who loves

reading books and taking classes and

listening to podcasts and all that stuff

i always noticed you know the teacher

the instructor the expert always always

says these little lines like oh take

note of that

oh write this down

oh note this down and reflect on it

later or keep a list or collect this

kind of information and every time they

would say that my ears would perk up and

i would just say i would just think say

what

like that's the part i need help with

that taking of notes and revisiting

those notes in a systematic way

was just this

this big hole in my in my process to

learning anything

and i never found a satisfactory

solution that's why i had to create one

it's kind of just this assumption that

people know how to take notes and i

think largely we don't

yeah

well i'll talk from my own experience

then so i have not in the past been the

best note taker like i mean i've been

reasonably good when it's like a class

and there's an exam at the end and you

know so you know you have some sort of

constraint okay i gotta write what was

covered in the lecture and review it and

that kind of thing but i mean and i

think this is really what your book

shines for is that in real life there's

no exam right you're just potentially

any information could apply any other

point in time in the future and if

you're like me you consume a lot of

information you're reading all sorts of

interesting stuff i mean we're both

writers so the the kind of potential

connections of where this might be

useful is is never super super organized

you know you're always looking for those

so that's an interesting story or that's

an interesting idea and you're linking

it together and so i'll give you my

process so what i would typically do is

i'd be like you know what i need to be

more organized about this so i'm going

to start taking notes and i'll get like

evernote and i'll get the browser

plug-in and i'll just start clipping

things clip clip clip clip clip and then

all of a sudden i have a bajillion

things stored in my evernote and it's

just i i'm actually scared to look at it

like i don't want to open it because

there's just too much stuff and then i

realized wait a minute i'm not i'm not

looking at these notes ever again i've

just been clipping things and sending

them to the void so you talk about this

in the book and so i really want you

know your expert opinion here what am i

doing wrong and for anyone else who can

relate to my experience where you've

tried to do note-taking and it's just

been sending things into the void what

are we doing wrong and how can we do it

better

yeah you know

i actually wouldn't say that that's

necessarily wrong i would just say it's

a phase

you know it's a phase that i think is

actually helpful to go through

we i think the the basic kind of problem

is for all of human history we lived in

an environment of information scarcity

so all of our mindsets and habits and

our approaches are designed for scarcity

right like you hear a negative insight

oh i gotta i gotta keep that because

it's gonna go up in smoke

but suddenly just in the past like point

zero zero zero one percent of human

history we've switched all of a sudden

to an environment environment of total

abundance hyper abundance right and so

all of those instincts are are incorrect

and actually lead us you know astray

um and so i'd say it's good even to go

through i call it the hoarding phase

right go through go through a hoarding

phase go through a phase where you're

keeping every single quote you come

across go through a phase where you're

you know web clipping every website that

might be useful

but then when you reach that point that

you mentioned that you've reached right

where you you you go to the other side

of the coin your future self goes back

to all this stuff you've collected and

realizes

what i think is the important

realization to have which is that when

you collect everything you might as well

collect nothing

right when you try to save all the

knowledge you end up not having any

knowledge that's accessible if you save

everything you end up just creating a

huge amount of work for your future self

to organize distill review boil down

that to its essence

so what i encourage people to think of

is think about like the signal in the

noise

there's always this comes from like

information theory right there's always

noise the noise of the internet the

noise of social media the noise of even

reading a book there's a lot of filler

what is the the signal

how can you distill and extract just the

main point the main take away the main

nugget from all that noise and often

what that leads to that whole cycle of

realization is taking far fewer notes in

the first place

so you come up with this system uh and

and you call it uh i don't know whether

i should say code or c-o-d-e i don't

know what you've been using in your head

to remember code code code um and so

tell us a little bit about this because

i think this kind of captures uh in a

nutshell the four phases that you talk

about in in taking proper notes and and

this sort of links to what we were just

talking about that you know you can get

very focused on the collecting but maybe

not so much on the distilling or the

expressing so maybe in your own words

can tell me a little bit about uh code

and and how it's helped other people

take better notes

yeah you know code is really my

framework for the creative process

and it's it's funny and almost

embarrassing how long it took me to

arrive at that right like the simplest

frameworks are the ones that take you

the longest to find

and i remember when like i was i was

sketching you know on my notepad here

the different steps that i kept

observing in my students i was like is

it collect no it's more like capturing

and then oh it's organizing and then i

was like is it refining or reviewing no

i think it's distilling and before i

even knew what i was doing code jumped

out at me

it was it was literally cod and i was

like wow

this has just kind of emerged from you

know a decade of experience

um and what i'm really trying to do is

just standardize the creative process

and for some people that sounds you know

kind of sacrilegious it sounds offensive

it sounds like i'm you know

oversimplifying creativity and i am

but i found for myself i just can't sit

down every day

at a blank anything a blank desk a blank

screen a blank canvas and just

invent how i'm going to approach my work

that day i need a process i need a

system

and what code does is it gives me steps

right i can basically look at any

project i'm working on and i can ask is

it time to capture more information

related to this project

right sometimes you just you just don't

have enough to work with you don't have

enough raw material you just need more

info is it time to organize the info i

already have

right once i have five 10 20 notes it's

pretty clear i have something i need to

organize it is it time to distill

the information that i've organized boil

it down to the main takeaways or have i

done all this preliminary steps and is

it time to just express myself is it

time to just express my own point of

view gives me like a checklist to run

through every time i sit down to work

well so so this brings me to my next

question because you know i've done some

interviews and and one of the ones that

the questions that i would sometimes get

which i you know i wasn't always a huge

fan of which is the sort of like the how

did you write this book uh question

because it sort of implies there's maybe

not that much to say about the content

of the book you get too much into the

how did you write the book

but i think it's worth asking in your

case because your book is about

organizing and researching for the

creative process and having gone through

that journey myself

i was very aware of this kind of

finished product of like oh yeah there

was a lot of little pieces that were

assembled like thiago did a good job of

like pulling together

you know some stories some signs some

things like this i know that there was

the 90 below the iceberg basically of

the thinking for what actually

manifested in the book here so tell me a

little bit about your process um of how

you went about writing the book and in

particular how did your note-taking

system

fit into the research and development to

like what we see today if you're if you

have a copy of the book if you're

reading it what is it what is it going

through

yeah yeah this is this is essential

right i should write a post on sometime

it'll be the most meta thing ever you

know how i use my brain to write a book

about second france and then you can

write an article about how you wrote

that article there you go

infinite infinite infinite regress yeah

i have my whole content pipeline planned

out for years in advance

yeah you know um there's so many

principles i used in fact it was it was

almost funny at some points i would get

stuck

you know like you do when you take on

any big creative project and then as i'm

looking at my notes and my content i

would be like oh wait what if i used my

own advice

maybe maybe that would work

yeah um and so let's see a few things

that come to mind um one is chunking

i mean chunking was so important i think

and this is something i talk about in

the book people really

underestimate how much

what they think is a single task

is really a project

right

i see people all the time you know i

love to look over their shoulders at

their to-do list people will write

things you know people will put will put

on their to-do list like write the

manuscript for my book

like on their to-do list as if they're

just going to sit down in 15 minutes

just do that right

um even something like you know buying

new headphones i don't know about you

but for me buying new headphones is like

a research project right like

i have to research all these things and

so what i invite people to do is look at

your to-do list if there's anything that

is stuck that you just can't seem to get

started you can't seem to make progress

on it's very likely that thing is not a

task it's a project

and once you realize it's a project you

have to step back and create some

structure

right you have to do what's what's

sometimes called meta work

right you have to think about okay what

are the steps what is the goal i'm

trying to achieve what are the

constraints what are some milestones i'm

going to reach along the way

and i think sometimes people are

embarrassed to do that for just one of

their personal projects it feels like

over overdoing it

and i don't think so so like for writing

my book

you might think that's a project

it's not it's actually like 20 to 30

separate projects

right you know this yeah right all the

little pieces you know in the beginning

the whole project was just fine and

agent

that was a whole thing within itself

conversations to have referrals to get

interviews to do

requirements to write down all these

things once that little tiny mini

project was done it was find an editor

just to work with me on the proposal

right and again that was a two three

month long project all these little

details to track and so step by step i

really just asked myself what is the

tiniest chunk i can bite off

that is manageable and not overwhelming

that i can

have some sort of win or reach some sort

of milestone that is then the trigger

for the next stage

um and at this point with the book

coming out you know in about a month

i've probably done like i said 15 or 20

separate projects and i still have five

or ten left

um yeah yeah

oh yeah i can tell you for for

for sure that the person who thinks the

book is done once they finish writing it

it's uh it goes on it goes on um

no that's great and i mean i think there

is an there's an idea i i don't want to

read too much into you so you can tell

me whether i'm i'm reading between the

lines incorrectly here but

but you see in a lot of the kind of

space of advice that we sit in i kind of

you know just do it don't do any

planning don't do any preparation you

know take action you know quit thinking

about it there is a kind of reflexive

um

gut instinct that if you know if you're

if you're sitting around making notes or

doing things like this you're doing

something wrong and i i kind of reject

that advice in part because of the very

reason you just talked about that when

you put

right book on your to-do list

there's no task there that's not

actually a task that is a million tasks

and it's it's the very complexity that

we deal with when we're doing difficult

things that often is what overwhelms us

and i also think this is something you

know also worth stating that a project

like you're talking about writing a book

has many many sort of moving parts let's

let's put it that way that

you know i'm a big fan of james clear he

wrote that for from my my book and and i

really like habits and doing all that

kind of thing but i also know that in in

sort of the wake of that a lot of people

kind of got the idea that just doing

something 15 minutes a day and it's the

exact same thing was how you complicate

how you do complicated work and i think

you know what you just said about well

actually writing a book is like 30

projects and each of those projects is

like 30 tasks and each of them you know

a lot of them maybe are only done once

like getting the agent is done once

that's not something you do 15 minutes

every day that's a one-time thing and so

i wanted to talk to you about this

because i think we are really in sync on

this level of what a lot of our work in

learning and note-taking and organizing

is about is how do you tackle really

complicated projects that don't have a

just a simple you just show up every day

you have to deal with the fact that

there's tons of information out there

there's lots of people you have to

contact there's many little individual

steps what do you think about that i i'm

sort of putting a lot on you there but

i'm sure you have some opinions having

seen this kind of advice floating around

no completely completely i'm also a huge

fan of james he's helped me a lot too on

my on my book writing journey but i

think it's like that quote the opposite

of every great truth is also a great

truth

you heard that yeah yeah yeah it's like

truths are not these single point

absolutes

usually when someone says a truth it is

on a spectrum

and both of the ends of the spectrum of

that spectrum are true or have value but

also points in between so i think you

know let's take habits for example

habits are i mean of course insanely

important insanely valuable crucial to

your health your finances your

relationships all these things but not

everything is a habit

by a long shot right yeah i kind of

compare it to marathons versus sprints

some things are marathons it's all about

staying in the race consistent progress

right like your your absolute speed at

any given point in the marathon is not

so important as long as you're moving

forward as long as you don't collapse on

the side of the road you're running the

marathon

but sprints are the sprints are really

what i'm interested in

like when i look back on my life yes

habits were important but there were

these moments in my career in my

business where there was an opportunity

right there was a window of opportunity

something arose and i had to generate i

had to sprint i had to generate a

tremendous amount of momentum in a short

amount of time to take advantage of that

opportunity

and that wasn't a matter of habits it

wasn't a matter of routines it was a

matter of

of having it was a matter of having the

research in place

even before i knew how i was going to

use it yeah right so like that's what a

second brain is it is i'm a writer too

that's my main creative medium i'm

constantly doing research by the time i

decide to start writing something it's

way too late to do research right

like if i'm going to write an article on

on x topic i can't start reading books

on that topic or else it's going to take

weeks and months so in a weird way i

have to always be doing research and

saving little nuggets in my second brain

so when that opportunity presents itself

i've already done all the research all i

have to do is pull it together so i'd

say it's kind of like marathons versus

sprints you really need both

so one idea and this is also something

related to it is a lot of people think

about notes in terms of expanding their

memory so this is something that like

you know you have your internal memory

and you have your external memory and

you use that to go locate things that

you can't remember but one of the ideas

that you bring up which i think is true

i notice in my own work is that notes

are also a tool for thinking

that it's the having notes next to each

other that you notice relationships that

you couldn't necessarily notice in your

head and i mean i think both of us would

probably agree that you kind of only

figure out what you think about

something until you've written a lot

about it like it's just through the act

of writing of sort of permuting through

all the possible ideas that you're going

through you're like oh no no this is

actually what i think about this i

couldn't just figure that out in my head

so tell me a little bit about how you

use note taking not just to save things

but also to think about things

yeah i think memory extending your

memory is like the first stage

it's like the gateway it's the stepping

stone

um and actually in the book i have kind

of these three stages that i see people

move through in kind of the maturity of

their second brain

uh remember connect and create

so remember has to come first because

until you free up some space

right that has to be the first step i

don't know about you i don't exactly

have like tons of just free bandwidth

laying around like my bandwidth tends to

be filled more or less

and so it's kind of like it's kind of

like when you're going to reorganize

your house you have to like move some

things out first move them into the

living room or into the garage or into

outside or to the storage space you have

to create some space to work in

uh and so that's why you know i describe

a second brain in the first place as an

extension of your memory just offload

get the

20 or 30 or 40 or 50

of stuff that is

it's just you have to remember just

memorize doesn't really add value it's

just kind of sitting there and offloaded

into an external storage system

but then as you alluded to once you do

that

things start to happen right it's kind

of like that saying more is different

but in this case it's less is different

less is different when you free up that

bandwidth suddenly you have some room to

think

right you have some space to wonder and

to wander and to

ideate and when you look at these

externalized ideas

you know the stuff that you've just

offloaded from your your own mind you

move into the second phase which is

connect and you start to draw

little connections oh this is related to

this you know i'm doing some gardening

and having some insights about gardening

that also apply to how to you know

use organic marketing for my business

like these really unorthodox unexpected

connections

um and once you've had some of those and

you can literally create those

connections like links in between your

notes

you move to the third phase which is

create

you know once you have a critical mass

of connections between ideas and they

exist in an external place i find people

almost can't help but want to create

theories or create stories or create

presentations or pieces of writing or

new products or side gigs there's

there's this fundamental human

creative nature that i think we have

even among people who insist that

they're not creative or their work is

not creative etc which i don't believe

and i disagree with um that creativity

just rises to the surface once you have

all these building blocks you know in

front of you

so i want to uh nerd out a little bit

here with you i

i know i think you have david allen he

has a little blurb on the top of your

book so i know you have some you know

personal relationship with with getting

things done if if the people listening

to me right now i've never heard of

david allen's getting things done then

they should definitely also read that

book that is like

the classic book that i think all of us

productivity writers go through at some

point where you're like oh wow this

person really has got a system and so i

know getting things done has obviously

had some influence on your work and i

know also it's a little bit less

well-known but definitely in the

note-taking community it's not unknown

are zettle casting systems and they also

have a similar role so i wanted to talk

to you a little bit because obviously

your approach kind of draws on sort of

these two let's call them traditions

uh what do you think are sort of the the

overlap the the differences between how

you think about it how they think about

it i mean i'm not here to cause internet

science fights between you and other

people but just to sort of reflect on

where you see your approach and your

philosophy fitting in with some of these

other systems that are out there

yeah i think it's it's very closely

related it's super closely related you

know this is something i emphasize in

the book is the history i'm really a fan

of history i think to understand the

present and the future you have to

understand the past uh and part of a

second brain by the way is tracking your

sources tracking the lineage of your

ideas exactly but gtd had an enormous

influence on me that's really how i

started my career was teaching gtd i was

sort of an unauthorized you know

unauthorized provider of

gtd training

um and what david allen did in my view

was simply create a process

by which a particular kind of

information which was actionable

information to do's tasks

could be turned from these vague what he

calls open loops right these vague

worries anxieties in your mind lurking

in the back of your consciousness

into clear actionable concrete to do's

in a system that you trusted to surface

them to track them and to finish them

that's what gtd did and i i so

appreciate that

he spent decades

you know really exploring the

implications of that and boiling it down

to its absolute simplicity um i hope i

have the you know the longevity to do

something similar

but when i set out to start teaching

building a second brain it was really to

do that same thing

for all the other kinds of information

all the non-actionable information the

notes the reference the lists the quotes

the research the highlights everything

else

right there's only two kinds of

information actionable and

non-actionable that pretty much covers

everything

um and so that's the relationship with

gtd uh which is super compatible

and then zeddle casting is even more

related i mean that's that's almost the

modern kind of inspiration for the

revival of this whole idea

which was used by this german

sociologist nicholas lumen in the 20th

century mid-20th century he used it to

write articles

and books and papers and he used index

cards on paper

i think one big difference that i'm

making is really making the leap and

committing to digital right like many of

the principles i teach can be applied to

paper

but i think at some point i think

recently we've crossed a threshold

where our devices are so ubiquitous the

software is strong enough and powerful

enough and easy to use enough

connectivity is almost universal that

i'm now comfortable saying you know what

paper is fine for some purposes but what

i'm teaching like my recommendation is

to go all in on digital

um okay that's the the primary

difference

so so this is a good uh good point to

ask my follow-up question which is that

i remember reading the book and noting

that you know it's very difficult to

talk tools in a book that you hope is

going to be around 20 years from now

because then you end up recommending

something that like you go to the

website and you get like a you know 504

gateway error or something and it's like

oh i went all in and i've made that

mistake i remember in my early days of

writing

i recommended a to-do list software

which was literally just to-do list like

it didn't have any other features and i

put it in there it's like well i just

use this one right like it's just as

good as any and then i'm getting emails

later people like oh yeah that software

doesn't exist anymore and it's but it's

it's a very simple thing like there's a

million to-do list softwares but you end

up committing to something that the

developers don't support or something

gets better after however we're having a

podcast right now we're in the ephemeral

media that is the internet and so anyone

who's listening to this and and we're

now aged and don't look as useful as we

do on this video our sound is useful if

you're listening to us you can trust

that okay go to thiago's website and

he'll have some update in 2042 or

whatever we are listening to this if

this podcast is still around what do you

recommend what do you use for tools what

what's the tech stack that you recommend

people get started with are there pros

and cons are there criteria you use to

evaluate these decisions of like this is

really important people get tricked by

these bells and whistles but they're not

so important i want to hear

yeah this was really

this was really one of the central

challenges of the book i mean to the

point that

it was almost difficult getting a

publishing deal because you know

publishers are like okay we work on you

know five to ten year time spans at

least

and you're gonna write a book on

software like why not just like publish

a pdf why not just like put this on your

blog

and i and i tried and i strongly

considered that but um i think what

convinced me to ultimately go forward

with it is there are some timeless

principles

there are some concepts that stand

the test of time uh and so i mean my

straightforward solution to that was

simply every time it got to the point to

recommend a specific product

uh i just stopped and i said check out

the second brain resource guide

which is now live actually just as of

this week so you can put it in the show

notes

so where do people go if they're

listening to this and they're driving

their car and they want to pull up their

phone no no don't do that but uh

i'm gonna have to send you the link i

don't know the url offhand i should

probably do that but i'll send you the

link to it it's just a page on the

building of secondbrain.com

which we're building a secondary.com

they can go there and there'll be a link

to internationally exactly yeah so it's

a completely free public resource

and also linked to many places

throughout the book uh and all it is is

just a step-by-step process of

determining what is your note-taking

style first of all

like i actually joke that you don't

choose a note-taking app and no taking

out chooses you

because it's so personal it's so related

to your temperament your personality

your goals the way that you naturally

think about information so we have four

archetypes

uh including a video that kind of

describes what each one is

um and then i introduce you to some of

the different categories of second brain

apps because it's not just note-taking

apps there's web clippers there's audio

or video transcription apps there's pdf

readers there's e-book readers there's

probably a dozen different kinds

and then at the end we have a

comprehensive directory

naming specific products with the links

to their websites the operating systems

that they function uh on

the uh the type of second brand app that

it is and we're committing to updating

that essentially indefinitely to just to

keep keep it kind of relevant and timely

for people

okay that's very cool i'm definitely

after this gonna check out and figure

out what my it's this is like a

personality test now i guess it's like

one of those what kind of note taker are

you you should do these like 15-minute

you know the facebook quizzes that'll

what kind of note taker are you yeah

yeah i like that i like that um so

one of the things that i thought was

really interesting about this book

especially in light of what we're

talking about about this being sort of

for creative work and ideas and you know

learning not necessarily tasks not

necessarily the kind of you know busy

executive stereotype that i think

getting things done sometimes falls into

um is the idea of

organizing notes in terms of the action

situations that they might be required

so you talk about this um pera system

uh in terms of organizing things for

action and i think this goes back to my

original problem that i talked about in

this sort of opening you get all these

notes and then you're like ugh i got to

go through them

how do you organize your notes so that

they become actionable so that they come

up for you at the right time so they're

they're sort of set up in your ecosystem

so that when you need to know something

you you encounter it again

yeah totally i think that's

that's kind of the uh the driving

principle of much of what i teach is

you know there's a lot of reasons to

take notes there's some reasons that are

more appreciative like you know there's

a joy an inherent joy in thinking for

sure

right

but i think just what i'm most

interested in or what i care about or

what makes the biggest difference to

people's lives i think and their careers

and their businesses is completed

creative projects

to me that is the that is the unit of

progress that is most relevant in

today's modern world

is a completed project not something

you're working on not something you're

thinking about not something you're

collecting research on but like when you

can point to

a specific result a specific outcome

that is done it's finished it's

delivered it's shipped there is an end

point right

that means you get to first of all step

away you get to offload something from

your you know your your workload but

also that's where the reputation comes

from that's where you build connections

that's where you you know you prove you

know what you're talking about that's

where you create impact for others

and it's like modern knowledge work it

often doesn't come to conclusions

everything is every version of the

website is just the next version right

every version of the document every

version of the memo every version

everything is just kind of

ongoing ongoing ongoing that i think we

have to actually put some intention to

having things finish

having things come to conclusions and so

pera is my framework for organizing it

stands for the four categories of

information that encompass everything

you might ever want to keep which are

projects areas resources and archives

but they come in a certain order in

order of priority the first one as you

noted is projects which is the first

class citizen the fir the top of the

hierarchy

and all it means is to just i mean it

really couldn't be simpler it's just to

just identify your current active

projects which that step alone we do

this in my course i lead people

live through the process of doing that

just that alone is so clarifying

right like if you ask the average person

what are the currently active projects

they can't really tell you they have a

vague idea some of them others are very

unclear and it's just making a list this

is what i'm committed to this is what

i've i've decided is is going to happen

and then once you've done that you've

done 90 of the work

of setting up pera which is to just

create a notebook or folder or tag or

whatever you know scheme your

note-taking app uses for each one of

your active projects when you create a

container for something you start to see

more of the things that could go in

there right it's like having a

placeholder so when you create these you

know empty notebooks or folders suddenly

you you realize everything you touch

that's related to your projects which is

most things can just with one second

with one motion be put right into the

corresponding notebook which means the

next time you work on that project you

just go right to that notebook and you

have everything related to it in one

place

so i want to uh i want to end on a kind

of a personal story i i really liked the

discussion of your father because he was

a an artist or is an artist and

has had an influence on how you think

about creative work which i mean my

parents aren't artists i mean a lot of

people here probably don't have artistic

parents but

how did that influence your thinking

about not only

the creative process but how creative

work actually happens and how it

actually gets done as opposed to maybe

the mythos that surrounds it

yeah it had such a profound impact

growing up it was like it was like

living in two worlds because you know

he'd paint these beautiful imaginative

colorful paintings

and everyone who saw them

you know they came over to the house or

they saw the website or they'd see his

art in a gallery

they had this i could just tell they had

this image of him that was like the

classic artist

and they saw him as this just like you

know

mystical spontaneous completely

structureless you know imaginative

person which he is

but i saw what happened behind the

scenes i saw the other side of that

equation which is my dad

was and is so structured he's so

systematic everything

functions according to a principle every

time he approaches a painting

he is

he is approaching it from a very

systematic way

and that is what allowed him to be

prolific

right to not get bogged down for weeks

and months on one painting

it allowed him to earn a living from his

art which is an enormous accomplishment

in any field right

uh and third allowed him to raise four

kids in cal in southern california which

is like an even difficult more difficult

accomplishment

um and i think that's what so many

whether they call themselves artists or

creatives or writers or just knowledge

workers are missing today they have a

gift

they have some talent they have some

good ideas

they have opportunities i have all the

pieces of the puzzle

but they're just missing that systematic

process and mostly because they just

didn't have a model

most of our models come from movies or

films

right where it's that classic

just free form just no no principles no

structure no process and i just think

that's not realistic

no i love that i love that and i think

that really reflects a lot of my ideas

about creativity i think you know we

romanticize the insight and often not

the persistence and effort and indeed

what you talk about the systematicity of

it so i want to thank you for chatting

with me and helping with some of my own

note-taking issues i really recommend

everyone who's listening this right now

to check out thiago forte's book i think

if you liked ultra learning or even if

you hated ultra learning um they're

they're very similar books in a way that

they i think they work well together

because i often talk about learning and

what's going on in your head and tiago

fart is often talking about what's going

on on

paper computer to sort of complement

that and i think they're both really

important parts of the puzzle so i want

to turn it to you is there anything else

you'd like to say is there anywhere that

you'd like to send people direct them if

they're listening to this

yeah thank you i appreciate the

opportunity and and i would i would echo

that you know

note-taking is a great compliment to any

personal growth

personal development or self-improvement

you know pursuit

whatever you're learning whatever that

is using all the techniques that scott

talks about in his book it's just a

place to document it it's just your it's

your your journal your log you know the

companion to your your personal learning

uh so i encourage you to check out you

know building a secondbrain.com there

you'll find links to all of our free

content to the book to the course it's

really the central hub

um and yeah just thanks for for having

me on scott

oh yeah it was great chatting with you

you