Avoid The Toxic 5 If You Have Long COVID with Dr. Evan Hirsch
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of the Energy Blueprint podcast, host Ari Whitten interviews Dr. Evan Hirsch, an expert in chronic fatigue and the creator of the Energy MD Method. They discuss the evolution of Dr. Hirsch's approach to treating chronic fatigue, ME/CFS, and Long COVID, emphasizing the importance of addressing the 'toxic five': heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. The conversation also touches on the role of brain retraining, the challenges of testing for these conditions, and the significance of lifestyle factors in recovery.
Takeaways
- π§ Dr. Evan Hirsch discusses the importance of addressing the 'toxic five' in treating chronic fatigue: heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma.
- π¬ Initially focusing on deficiencies and toxicities, Dr. Hirsch has shifted towards recognizing the root causes and their interplay, rather than isolated treatment.
- π The 'toxic five' are seen as interconnected, where addressing one aspect, like mold, can release other toxins, necessitating a holistic treatment approach.
- π‘ Dr. Hirsch emphasizes the significance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue, advocating for brain retraining as a critical component of recovery.
- π He has moved towards simplifyifying treatment, focusing on what's most impactful for the patient and reducing reliance on extensive testing.
- π©Ί The role of chronic infections in ME/CFS is acknowledged, but Dr. Hirsch notes their connection to other toxins, suggesting a complex relationship.
- π Mold exposure is often linked to home environments, with testing recommended to ensure a non-toxic living situation for recovery.
- πΏ For removing toxins, natural binders like bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, and cilantro are used, moving away from aggressive chelation therapies.
- π§ͺ Dr. Hirsch critiques the over-reliance on lab tests, advocating for a return to clinical judgment based on history and symptoms due to the imperfections in testing.
- π Long COVID is compared to ME/CFS, with treatments focusing on similar detoxification and nervous system retraining strategies, along with addressing viral persistence.
Q & A
What are the 'toxic five' that Dr. Evan Hirsch discusses in the podcast?
-The 'toxic five' refers to a combination of heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma, which Dr. Hirsch identifies as the most significant contributors to chronic fatigue and related conditions.
How has Dr. Hirsch's approach to treating chronic fatigue changed over the years?
-Initially, Dr. Hirsch focused on identifying all possible causes of an individual's condition. Over time, he realized that not all causes carry equal weight and has since focused more on the 'toxic five' and simplifying treatment approaches.
Why does Dr. Hirsch emphasize the importance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue?
-Dr. Hirsch emphasizes nervous system dysfunction because it can lead to immune system dysfunction, which in turn affects the body's ability to address infections and other toxicities. He has incorporated brain retraining and nervous system retraining techniques into his treatment approach.
What is the significance of treating chronic infections in the context of chronic fatigue?
-Chronic infections are significant because they can interact with heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, creating a 'toxic ball' that feeds off each other and complicates treatment. Addressing one without the others can lead to the release of other toxins, potentially worsening symptoms.
How does Dr. Hirsch view the role of testing in treating chronic fatigue?
-Dr. Hirsch has moved towards treating the 'toxic five' without extensive testing, as he found that most patients had all or most of these issues. He now focuses on treatment and uses testing later to assess progress, reducing costs and complexity for patients.
What is the connection between mold exposure and chronic fatigue according to Dr. Hirsch?
-Mold exposure is often linked to chronic fatigue because mold toxins can be stored in body tissues and organs, causing a range of symptoms. Dr. Hirsch recommends testing to ensure patients are not living in moldy environments and uses binders to help remove mold toxins from the body.
What are some of the binders Dr. Hirsch uses to treat mold and heavy metal toxicity?
-Dr. Hirsch uses binders such as bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, humic and folic acid, and zeolite to treat mold and heavy metal toxicity. These binders help to remove toxins from the body through excretion.
How does Dr. Hirsch approach the treatment of long COVID?
-Dr. Hirsch treats long COVID by addressing the same underlying issues as chronic fatigue syndrome, such as heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. He also incorporates natural antivirals and other treatments to target the SARS-CoV-2 virus and spike protein.
What is the role of brain retraining in Dr. Hirsch's treatment approach?
-Brain retraining plays a significant role in Dr. Hirsch's approach by helping patients move into a parasympathetic state, which is more conducive to healing. Techniques such as mindfulness, breath work, and cognitive therapy are used to retrain the nervous system and improve recovery.
How does Dr. Hirsch integrate brain retraining into his treatment program?
-Dr. Hirsch integrates brain retraining into his program by introducing it either at the beginning for sensitive patients or around three to six months into the treatment for others. The goal is to help patients manage their thoughts and emotions better, which supports their overall healing process.
Outlines
π Early Approaches to Chronic Fatigue
Dr. Evan Hirsch initially focused on identifying all possible causes of an individual's chronic fatigue, influenced by his functional and environmental medicine training. He categorized causes into deficiencies and toxicities, totaling around 38. However, he later realized that not all causes were equally significant. He identified the 'toxic five'βheavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or traumaβas the most critical. These were not initially seen as the primary root causes but became central to understanding the underlying issues like hormonal deficiencies and mitochondrial dysfunction.
π The Evolution of Treatment Philosophy
Dr. Hirsch's approach evolved to emphasize the importance of addressing the 'toxic five' collectively rather than individually. He recognized the interconnectedness of these toxins and the need for a comprehensive treatment strategy that includes binders to remove toxins and support the body's natural detoxification processes. His experience led him to simplify treatment plans for cost-effectiveness and to focus on the most impactful interventions. Additionally, he discovered the significance of nervous system dysfunction and incorporated brain retraining techniques into his treatment programs, observing improved outcomes when clients engaged in these practices.
π Reducing Reliance on Diagnostic Testing
Dr. Hirsch shifted towards less diagnostic testing, having observed that most patients presented with a combination of the 'toxic five' over time. He concluded that it was more beneficial to focus on treatment with targeted supplements rather than continuous testing. This change was influenced by the imperfections in testing methods and the realization that many causes could be inferred from patient history and symptoms. He also noted the over-reliance on tests by some practitioners and the need to balance test results with clinical judgment.
π Mold Exposure and Its Impact on Health
Mold exposure was identified as a prevalent issue, often stemming from water damage in homes or workplaces. Dr. Hirsch emphasized the importance of testing for mold in living environments and the challenges in treating patients living in moldy conditions. He discussed the long-term storage of mold toxins in body tissues and the necessity of using binders to aid in their removal. The conversation also touched on the commonality of mold exposure and the potential for toxins to persist in the body for years, even after the initial exposure.
πΏ Natural Approaches to Remove Toxins
The discussion turned to the use of natural binders like bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, and others to remove toxins from the body. Dr. Hirsch shared his experiences with various binders, including the challenges of using prescription medications like cholestyramine. He highlighted the importance of ensuring that toxins are effectively removed without causing redistribution within the body, which can lead to further health complications.
π§ The Role of Brain Retraining in Recovery
Dr. Hirsch discussed the significance of brain retraining in his treatment approach, noting its impact on patient recovery. He recognized the influence of past traumas and stress on the autonomic nervous system and the benefits of techniques that promote a parasympathetic state. He integrated various methods, including mindfulness and breathwork, to help patients modulate their nervous system responses and improve healing. The conversation underscored the importance of addressing both the cognitive and sensory aspects of health to facilitate recovery.
π Controversies Surrounding COVID-19 and Vaccines
The conversation delved into the controversial topics of COVID-19 persistence in the body and the effects of COVID-19 vaccines. Dr. Hirsch shared his observations on long COVID, its treatment, and the potential for viral persistence, comparing it to other viral infections like Epstein-Barr virus. He also addressed the issue of adverse effects from COVID-19 vaccines, acknowledging the evidence of harm in certain individuals and the need for a balanced perspective on vaccine safety and efficacy.
π± Holistic Recovery from Chronic Conditions
Dr. Hirsch concluded the discussion by emphasizing the holistic nature of recovery from chronic conditions like long COVID and chronic fatigue syndrome. He highlighted the importance of a multifaceted approach that includes addressing toxins, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. He also stressed the value of brain retraining techniques in facilitating recovery and the need for individualized treatment plans that consider each patient's unique circumstances and responses to interventions.
Mindmap
Keywords
π‘Functional Medicine
π‘Deficiencies and Toxicities
π‘Toxic Five
π‘Mitochondrial Dysfunction
π‘Nervous System Dysfunction
π‘Brain Retraining
π‘Long COVID
π‘Heavy Metals
π‘Mold Toxins
π‘Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)
π‘Environmental Medicine
Highlights
The initial focus on finding all causes of an individual's health issues has evolved to recognizing that not all causes weigh equally.
The 'toxic five' - heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma - are identified as key contributors to health issues.
The importance of addressing the root cause of hormonal deficiencies, mitochondrial dysfunction, and vitamin deficiencies is emphasized.
Lifestyle habits such as diet, water intake, movement, and sleep are considered deficiencies that contribute to health issues.
The interplay between toxins and the need for a comprehensive approach to treatment is discussed.
The realization that infections cannot be eradicated without addressing heavy metals, chemicals, and molds is highlighted.
The shift from extensive testing to a focus on treatment based on history and symptoms is explained.
The limitations and unreliability of certain medical tests are critiqued, advocating for a more cautious approach to their interpretation.
The significance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue and the benefits of brain retraining are explored.
The role of chronic infections in ME/CFS and the challenges of treating them are discussed.
The impact of mold exposure on health and the importance of addressing it in treatment are highlighted.
The use of binders for removing toxins from the body and their effectiveness is examined.
The potential overuse and harm caused by the COVID-19 vaccine is acknowledged.
The concept of 'long post-covid vaccination syndrome' and its treatment are introduced.
The integration of brain retraining in the treatment process and its significance in recovery are discussed.
The importance of treating the body holistically, including addressing mindset and belief systems, is emphasized.
The practical steps for introducing brain retraining techniques in treatment programs are outlined.
The top-down and bottom-up approaches to brain retraining and their roles in recovery are explained.
Transcripts
when I first started it was all about
finding all the causes that an
individual had you know I knew from my
functional medicine environmental
medicine training that that was going to
be really important but what I didn't
realize was that they didn't they
weren't all weight equally you know so
when somebody had deficiencies you know
I kind of categorized the causes into
deficiencies and toxicities and at this
point we're looking at about 38 of those
but really the most important ones are
what I now call the toxic five which are
a combination of the heavy metals
chemicals molds infections and nervous
system dysfunction or trauma so before
those were in there but they weren't as
important and they weren't I didn't see
them as kind of like the root root cause
of all this stuff hey this is Ari
welcome back to the energy blueprint
podcast with me today for the I believe
the third time is my friend Dr Evan
Hirsch who is a world-renowned fatigue
expert best-selling author and
professional speaker he's the creator of
the energy MD method the science-backed
and clinically proven four-step process
to resolving chronic fatigue mecfs and
long covid naturally through his
bestselling book podcast and 100% online
practice he's helped thousands of people
around the world and in this episode we
are going to be talking all about his
approach to resolving chronic fatigue
mecfs and long covid as well as kind of
reflect ing back on years ago when I met
him I think five or six years ago and
some of the initial podcast that we did
at that time and some of the things that
he and I talked about in private
conversations about his uh approach to
to dealing with
mecfs and how his views and how his
approach to certain things to the
treatment of mecfs and chronic fatigue
uh has changed over that time and
differences in how he sees different
therapies and based on how he's seen
hundreds or thousands of patients uh
respond to different things and what's
worked and and what hasn't and what's
worked consistently and What U maybe
leads to uh variable results and
unpredictable results and so on so uh a
lot of good insights here and I think if
you are dealing with severe chronic
fatigue or complex chronic illness or
long covid I think that you'll glean a
lot of great insights from this so
without any further Ado enjoy this
episode I think number three with Dr
Evan hir Dr HS welcome back to the
show all right thanks so much for having
me on and by at this point you can call
me Evan awesome well I do in person but
you know in the in the podcast I always
like to make sure some people have a
thing where yeah we we're on a firstname
basis outside of podcast but some some
people have actually told me okay but
during the podcast I don't want you to
call me by my first name I want you to
call me doctor so and so so I always
assume that's the case I don't want to
be on the you're smart on the side of
caution rather than coming across
disrespectful to somebody who wants to
be addressed in their professional U by
their professional
credential so um Evan it's been what at
least four years maybe six years since I
had you on the podcast for the first for
the first time and I think we met in
person at at M share Summit maybe six
years ago five six years ago something
along those lines and um
and we've since had a really nice
friendship ever since then we've had a
lot of really nice discussions on and
offline and I've also interviewed you
for the part for the Superhuman energy
Summit I did several years back and I'm
curious you've been in the trenches
treating me CFS treating people with
chronic fatigue for many many years now
um and I'm curious how you know sort of
on the big picture and then we can zero
in on you know more specific things to
talk about but in in the big picture how
has your approach and your your thinking
your Paradigm your understanding of the
causes and best treatments for people
with chronic fatigue changed over the
last five or six years since we
met so when I first started it was all
about finding all the causes that an
individual had you know I knew from my
functional medicine environmental
medicine training that that was going to
be really important but what I didn't
realize was that they didn't they
weren't all weighed equally you know so
when somebody had deficiencies you know
I kind of categorized the causes into
deficiencies and toxicities and at this
point we're looking at about 38 of those
but really the most important ones are
what I now call the toxic 5 which are a
combination of the heavy metals
chemicals molds infections and nervous
system dysfunction or trauma so before
those were in there but they weren't as
important and they weren't I didn't see
them as kind of like the root root cause
of all this stuff you know is like what
is actually causing the hormones to be
deficient what's causing the
mitochondrial dysfunction what's causing
vitamins to be def deficient you know
and so um the lifestyle habits I kind of
put his deficiencies like not enough
good food not enough good water not
enough good movement not enough good
sleep
but those other deficiencies I didn't
realize were so dependent on you know
how severe these toxicities were so that
was probably the biggest thing that I've
kind of moved towards and then the other
thing is just trying to simplify things
as much as possible um you know because
when you're addressing a lot of
different causes and you know it can
cost a lot of money you know for people
especially with the the amount of
supplements oftentimes they're spending
more for supplements than they are for
my time and so just trying to figure out
how to optimize things um as much as
possible and then I guess the last thing
the third thing I'll say is I didn't
realize how important nervous system
dysfunction was and brain retraining was
and so you know I personally have kind
of gone down that path and then um and
had and seen the results you know so now
when I have not just for me but for my
my clients as well and so when they
joined the program I talked to them
about doing some nervous system
retraining and so we have some
components in our program and we're
incorporating more all the time and then
we also work in tandem with some of the
other brain ret trinings that are out
there but we always find that people do
better when they're working on their
mindset when they're doing the brain
retraining they get better
faster okay I'm overflowing with
questions but let's let's start
with um chronic infections so I know
that you know many years ago when when
we spoke
this was sort of the the foremost thing
in your mind that was affecting people
this was one of the biggest causes uh is
that something that you still consider
to be one of the dominant things going
on with people with mecfs and and I
guess you could say chronic fatigue more
broadly it is but I didn't understand
kind of the interplay between the heavy
metals the chemicals the molds and then
all also the nervous system dysfunction
and so that really um I've definitely
improved my understanding around that
you know and so often times now now I
kind of see all these toxins as kind of
like a a toxic ball where when you start
to pull one thing out of the ball
they're all kind of attached to each
other they're feeding off of each other
they're you know swapping DNA with each
other at least the infections are um and
so when you start to pull mold out or
heavy metals or chemicals and the
infections are attached all of a sudden
the infections are released and so you
know I used to kind of go after one
thing at a time and now what I found is
that I kind of have to have a little bit
of everything um on board in terms of
like treatments and so that when mold is
released there's a binder on board to
bind it up when certain infections are
released there's something on board in
order to grab that and take it out of
the body so I think I'm kind of seeing
it more holistically when it comes to
some of those toxins but definitely the
infections play a big role um and then
now we've got the newest C on the Block
which is co MH yeah long so we we'll I
know that you in our discussion prior to
to recording today you wanted to flag
long CO as something to get into and I
know that's an area of specialization in
recent years since Co um so we'll get
into that I want to touch a bit more on
chronic infection so it's interesting
that you said that because my
observation over the
years is
that certain people that I observed who
got a diagnosis of some particular
chronic infection whether um cytomegalo
virus or Epstein bar virus or or bellia
or something like that I saw so many
people I mean that this this pattern
became very clear to me that there there
were people who were insisting that this
was their diagnosis this was the cause
of their problems that they they had
this infection and and this was the
driving force for all their symptoms and
I saw them just chase after it for years
in many cases just with one you know
looking for the magical chemical
substance or magical supplement cocktail
that's going to remove this infection
and cure all their symptoms and I I have
to say I just almost never saw it
actually be successful um it seemed to
me that there were just it was like
chasing a a ghost like yeah okay I took
this this chemical this antiviral drug
or this supplement this herb herbal
concoction and it seemed to work it
seemed to help me for a period of time
and then my infection came back and I
had another flare of this infection and
uh another you know period of time where
I was debilitated with chronic fatigue
is that something that you've observed
as well and and I mean it seems to mesh
with the sort of the new paradigm that
you're presenting which is that that's
just sort of one piece of the puzzle and
it's really a part of this larger toxic
ball that you have to address in its
entirety rather than just this one piece
absolutely yeah that's a definitely a
good observation and I've seen the same
thing so you can't get rid of infections
if you have heavy metals chemicals and
molds on board you just can't you need a
somewhat intact immune system in order
to be able to help you get rid of that
infection you can't just go after the
infection slam it with with whatever the
immune system has to help you and the
immune system can't help you if it's
being distracted by the heavy metals
chemicals molds whatever or ner or
nervous system dysfunction which leads
to immune system dysfunction those
things will not allow you to get rid of
the infection the other thing too that I
wanted to mention that's that's really
changed a lot is that I test so much
less now and the reality is is that when
I used to do testing I would test people
for all of these different causes you
know every 3 or six months and and I
found is that over the course of about a
year or so pretty much everybody had all
of the toxic 5 or toxic four at that
point coming out the heavy metals
chemicals molten infections they all
came out at some point so at this point
I'm like we need to treat all of these
things and a better use of your time
energy and money is to put that money
towards the supplements that are going
to do that and then we can test later
and see how much is
left so that's been a really interesting
shift for me too and a lot of that comes
from the idea or the fact that all
testing is imperfect I think you talk a
lot about this I was I was just going to
say this is something that I've touched
on in a number of of of podcasts maybe
some people listening are sick of
hearing me talk about it um but you know
my experience is there there is this
really big gap and I'm really glad you
brought this subject up but there's this
this gap
between the people's perception of these
tests as being extremely Cutting Edge
and and sciency versus the reality which
is that when you dig into the actual
evidence uh and that the research that
underlies many of these tests that exist
in the market you realize that a lot of
them are just being created by these
for-profit companies to sell tests to
practitioners and ultimately
patients that really have very weak
underlying evidence to support their
clinical validity to support even that
they are accurate even that they are
legitimately measuring the thing that
they claim to be measuring and you know
I mean I could tell you many many
stories but there's lots of examples
that I've either experienced personally
or read from other practitioners and
friends who have done split testing and
things like that um but you know food
intolerance testing you can take two
samples from the same person literally
at the at at the same time put different
write different names on them send them
off to the lab and get two totally
different sets of results um you can get
uh you can you can get saliva hormone
testing and compare it to blood testing
from the same person to urine testing
from the same person all the samples
taken at the same time and these
different tests show you know huge
disparities in the the levels of
different hormones one will show high
one will show low levels of the same
hormone from the same person taken at
the same time um I've done microbiome
tests I've done multiple microbiome
tests with my own stool samples that are
the same stool sample but using
different microbiome Technologies and I
get
reports with radically different levels
of the same species of bacteria and you
know when when
[Music]
you when you get a report of let's say
all these tests with
10 or 20 or 50 pages of reports of all
these different markers that have been
measured in you our brains go wow this
is really amazing data this this this
they figured out exactly what's going on
in my body now I know exactly what to do
about all these specific problems that
are the cause of my
symptoms except when you start to do
this kind of split testing that I'm
describing and you start to look at the
evidence underlying these tests you
realize like actually this is 50 pages
of data that I don't even know if I can
trust if if it's accurate or not and and
obviously I'm painting with broad brush
Strokes here there are many types of
tests that are accurate with data that
you can trust but a lot of the landscape
of of functional medicine tests are
these kind of questionable validity
questionable accuracy and and whether
you can actually trust that data or
not I
agree and you know medical school we
learned that 90% of your diagnosis is
going to be history and symptoms and 10%
is going to be physical exam and Labs
right and we forget that you know when I
when I lecture to Physicians I tell them
if I if you lean too hard on your
Laboratory test you're going to fall
over right they're just not they're not
a a place to stick your your pole in the
sand and say okay this is this is the
hill I'm going to die on you're you're
going to die very quickly unfortunately
and so I I found I found that it's
actually you know it's it's more
beneficial to just treat these things
because of that information and so and I
do find that 90% of the 38 different
causes that we're looking at can
actually be determined by history and
symptoms right and then it's and then
it's always about like what's most
important to treat and let's focus on
those things right um yeah I agree okay
um one other thing that I I wanted to
ask you about is Ozone um this is
something that I know when we first met
you were you were really raving to me
about the benefits of ozone and then I
remember speaking to you maybe two or
three years later and you were already
starting to change your view on ozone in
that you found that the if I remember
correctly you correct me if I'm wrong
but I think what I remember you telling
me was that you found the response to be
very unpredict
some people would benefit greatly from
it other people would react in a very
negative way um I'm I'm curious what
what sort of your latest take is on the
benefits of ozone and if you use it in
your
practice so ozone
hyperbarics these are all oxygen Pro
oxygenation techniques where you're
basically trying to increase oxygenation
in the body high do IV vitamin C is also
like this and what ends up happening is
that you can increase mitochondria
significantly and so that can be
beneficial for increasing energy but it
also is a bit of an indiscriminate
antimicrobial so the main reason why I
stopped using it was because as they say
in South America no Bal la like it's not
worth it and a lot of that had to do
with the fact that as I started getting
better in my functional medicine
practice and I started seeing sicker and
sicker patients and started getting more
into mecf chronic fatigue syndrome and
seeing more people with infections more
and more people got a lot of die off and
they got a lot worse when I would give
them IV ozone and this is Ozone that's
mixed with um the blood and then
injected back into the body and you know
I had one person who almost had like a
psychotic break because there are
certain infections that are associated
with different moods can cause different
symptoms you know there were studies
years ago of people with schizophrenia
who responded really well to doxy
cycling like there is this association
between mood and infection and that
really gave me pause and I found that
with a number of people that you know I
was not preparing them appropriately for
the die off that they were going to
occur that was potentially going to
occur and it was very unpredictable and
then there's the cost Associated so you
know thousands of dollars of getting
these IVs and not knowing or the
hyperbaric oxygen and not knowing
whether or not it's going to work for
some people it it potentially could be
helpful but it was only usually
marginally
effective and and for other people
really they really didn't notice
anything at all and oftentimes they got
worse yeah interesting so let's let's
talk about mold a little bit um the
source of mold exposure for most people
you're finding is the home environment
is you know previous water damage or
living in certain climates where the
home gets moldy and then people get
exposed that way or are you finding
other other roots of exposure as
well yeah it's mainly home environment
sometimes it can be work um you know the
adage is that upwards of 50% of all
buildings in First World countries have
water damage and most of those have mold
um and it doesn't always have to be in
damp climates though mold does grow at
greater than 5 55%
humidity um you know the joke is when
people say you know I'm going to move to
Arizona because you know there's no mold
there and it's and the joke is that are
you going to have indoor plumbing right
because if you live in a home that has
ever had any sort of water damage
whether it's a roof leak or a flood in
the basement or a busted pipe um you
have potential to get mold from that
place and if you got if you had water
dam or if you had exposure when you were
like 5 years old if you weren't taking
like a binder and glutathione for a
significant time after that or an AAL
cysteine if you can't glutathione then
you still have that mold in your body
even 50 years later so and plus you know
the amount of times that people move I
mean I when I I got my mold when I was
in medical school and there were cats
that peed on cardboard boxes in the
basement and then I put those boxes
unknown to me in my car and drove across
country right so that's one of the ways
that I got it but we move around so much
and it's it's just so common to get it
and so the most one of the most
important tests that I do recommend that
people get is to make sure they're not
living in a moldy environment and this
test is also imperfect right so but that
is one of the often times hardest ways
um most challenges that I have in
getting people better is when they're
living in a moldy environment so we try
to always do our best to make sure that
that's not an issue for them
yeah if mold is being stored in the body
for many years where in the body is it
being stored so it's in the tissues you
know oftentimes organs fat
um in general and so it does require
more of a binder in order to catch it
because otherwise it's just getting
recirculated okay and the so even over
years the body wouldn't doesn't really
have the capacity to remove some of
these mot toxins and when you say mold
is in the body we're we're referring to
mot toxins right rather than the living
mold yeah I mean sometimes there are the
actual spores the DNA but more than not
it's the mot toxins that we're talking
about the toxins that are produced by
the molds
um I forgot your question so as far as
removing those from the body basically
the body has limited capacity to do it
on its own and and we have to rely on
external binders
basically for the most part but if you
are sweating at on a regular basis and
you are drinking 3 L of water a day I
mean there's certain habits that can
definitely help you know and if you're
consuming a lot of
vegetables um you know often times you
are going to have some benefit but for
the people that I see you have to
remember that I've got a tainted
population because all of these people
have chronic fatigue chronic fatigue
syndrome or long covid right and so
there have been significant cases where
you know we start to remove mold out of
the body and that's really the lever
that makes such a significant difference
for these people and so and often times
when you start feel badly that's really
when you stop moving around you stop
exercising you stop sweating right um
you know my wife believes that a lot of
the reason why she got sick is when she
moved from Texas where she was sweating
all the time as soon as you walk out the
front door to Olympia Washington where
the temperature is between 40 and 70
degrees all year round right and so she
wasn't sweating anymore and so she
thinks that was a big reason why she got
sick and so there are some of those
things um that can help but you know the
people that I see they all have
significant mold
exposure uh several years ago this was
um actually I remember it was just
before the covid outbreak which is
probably the worst timing possible uh I
discovered that there was water damage
from the bathroom uh right next to my
master bedroom in the house that I was
living
in and when we went into the walk-in
closet and we pushed aside bunch of our
jackets and stuff that we rarely
touched you look to the wall behind it
and the whole wall was covered in mold
and it had been there
for months growing definitely for for at
least a few
months and uh and that was 8 feet away
from where I was sleeping each night so
I was inhaling all of these mold spores
for for months um and around that time I
got a respiratory tract infection which
I think was right at the beginning of of
covid I think it was covid it was one of
the the most severe infections that I've
ever had and I was left for over a month
I had very very low energy levels and a
really severe cough and it was only and
then we got news of covid like a month
or two later um and that's when I put
the pieces together that that's what it
probably was um so I think that I had
this mold exposure that I was getting
for months that was weakening me and
then I got exposed to covid and that
that was not a not a very good
combination but uh when I was dealing
with that mold toxicity the physici that
I was working with prescrib me chest
tyramine which is uh um which is a a
prescription
medication and I I forget is it used for
it's treating uh cholesterol or treating
bile or something like that what's the
the the previous use for it exactly yeah
it's an old it's not really used so much
anymore but it's a bios sequestrant and
so it uh the way that it was removing
cholesterol out of the body is it was
binding up the cholesterol the fat in
the bile and taking it out of the body
okay so so that's what um that physician
prescribed to me and I and I think it
was relatively effective the barring you
know there's some questionable results
from uh some of these MotoX tests some
showed high or low levels depending on
which one we did but um but definitely
the levels went down over time and and
my body was got rid of most of these mot
toxins um I'm curious what you found to
be really effective in terms of binders
for treating mold what do you typically
use with
patients so I'll comment on the chamine
and then I'll go into that so um you
know thyine if you can get a doctor to
prescribe it for you and I don't
prescribe anymore you know I work online
as a coach now so I can help people
across state and National lines um but
it can be helpful it usually tastes
awful and often times it has to be
compounded and combined with sugar in
order to get rid of the taste and so I
can confirm it does taste awful and the
texture is is actually worse than the
The Taste I got like an unflavored one
but it's really grainy it's it's almost
like drinking sand and it kind of stays
in in your throat and it's it's kind of
an awful taste uh
texture yeah and oftentimes it's really
constipating and so of you know or cause
stomach aches and so a lot of people
can't tolerate it so I'm glad you did
because if you can then it's a good
treatment but 95% of the mot toxins will
be can be addressed with the following
combination banide clay activated
charcoal and
chlorella so that's what study have
shown and so that's a combination that
we use often times we're also
using um humic and folic acid or we're
using um
Zite and that seems to work well
excellent um as far as heavy metals
which is another component of this toxic
ball um I guess two two questions one is
related to binders I suspect it's some
of those same binders that you just
mentioned that sort of have that Dual
Purpose maybe of a addressing mot toxins
as well as dressing addressing heavy
metals um but I'm curious also if you
have sort of more General thoughts on
heavy heavy metals and the role that
they're playing uh in chronic fatigue
and and what you've been what you found
over the years with your
patients yeah so we we're also using a
combination of natural substances in
order to remove the heavy metals from
the body so combination of things like
chlorella and cilantro and all which is
like a
seaweed um and you know what what I used
to do you know um was was utilizing
things prescriptions like dmsa when back
when I prescribed and what I found was
that there was a lot of redistribution
happening
so that means that you know the heavy
metals were being moved from one part of
the body to another and often times it
would end up in the brain and then
people would have memory issues and it
wasn't pretty so I generally you know I
go a lot slower now I'm often talking
about removing these toxins at a rate
that people can tolerate and I spent a
lot of time in step three of my step
four process which is opening up
drainage Pathways or exit Pathways to
make sure that we can get rid of this
crap so that it doesn't get
redistributed so that's kind of the
really big thing you know if you're
going to go and you're trying to remove
heavy metals with IVs or with
prescriptions you know I generally I've
seen too many side effects from those
things and so I no longer recommend it
interesting I I I it's been several
years since I explored the whole topic
of detox detoxification in in depth and
it's not something that's been a a great
area of interest of mine um but what I
recall was a lot of controversy among
experts experts who specialize in that
area among which of these binders are
best and sort of some of these people
are
saying
um things like chlorella and
cilantro and alphalipoic acid are I
think they call them I think they use
the term uh reversible binders if I
remember or they're sort of temporary
binders I guess you could think of them
as where they sort of grab these these
toxins these heavy metals but they only
hold on to them sort of more weekly for
a shorter period of time and so
therefore there is a higher risk of them
grabbing the chemicals from the cell
going into the blood and redistributing
them to somewhere else and some of these
people were advocating the use of uh
dmsa and um what's the other one E I
want to Eda BTA yeah dmps and dmps thank
you um some people are advocating the
use of those as being much stronger
binders that decrease the risk of
redistribution so it sounds like your
take is is a bit different that th you
think that those chemicals are actually
problematic and that you found that
those increase the risk of
redistribution did I understand that
correctly yeah yeah that's what I've
seen okay plus also I mean I think that
you know with our approach where we also
have people drinking lers of water a day
and then we also have the other binders
um you know that there's yes they are
reversible but it's less likely to be an
issue and it's also a lot lower dose and
so you know if they are they're they're
more likely to come out with the other
things that we're doing and and not get
redistributed in my
experience are there particular heavy
metals that you found to be uniquely
problematic whether it's Mercury or
aluminum or c or lead or something like
that is there some sort of pattern that
you're finding with those and anything
that you can tell people that is related
to roots of exposure to those metals
that they may not be aware
of well I think you know because I'm
testing a lot
less um I'm I mean I would say that when
I did test a lot it was I did not see I
think I okay so I would say that mercury
I saw come out most of the time and so
what's important to remember with these
tests is they're really excretion tests
and depending on the binder that you use
or the keying agent that's going to bind
to that it's going to come out
disproportionately so these key laters
like dmsa or dmps Ora they have a
binding coefficient which means that
they bind preferentially to different
metals and so consequently you may see
see when you do this test that there's a
whole bunch of lead coming out and then
if you continue to do the testing you
see then the lead goes away as you're
removing the heavy metals and then the
next thing that comes out is Mercury and
then after that maybe it's cadmium and
DMS in these these different keying
agents aren't particularly good at
removing aluminum so generally you don't
see those um you have to do something
like silica in order to do it um and
then there are concerns about that
testing too because if you're going to
give a Keating agent
which is a treatment times 10 generally
um it's going to be just a very high
dose and if you're going to give this to
a sick person they're not going to be
able to clear those heavy metals and so
that's another place where I where I um
have changed the way what I'm doing is
because um that I've seen a number of
untour effects from that um yeah so in
terms of so I think I answer the first
part of the question but what was the
second
part was Roots you're talking about
Roots if there's any anything related to
roots of exposure to these heavy metals
that that people could be more aware of
so that they don't accumulate some of
these things in the first place yeah so
with Mercury you know it really is
about um amalgams you know they call
them silver fillings because it sounds
bad to call them Mercury fillings but
they really are half silver and half
Mercury right and every time you bite
down you release mercury vapor this is
one of the reasons why I got chronic
fatigue is from my Mercury fillings um
and then a big one that a lot of people
don't want to talk about as fish because
you know they talk about fish as brain
food and Omega-3s are so important and
that's true but unfortunately I feel
like you got to get them in supplements
these days that have actually been um
tested to make sure they don't have
mercury because we have way too much
mercury right now that's in the oceans
and that unfortunately is now in the so
the bigger the fish the more Mercury so
consequently you know if you are going
to eat fish eating smaller fish like
anchovies or sardines is going to be
recommended but um those are some of the
big reasons why people end up with more
Mercury did you want to something live
living up in Seattle I know salmon
consumption is Big up there do you find
that even salmon is problematic I do my
understanding was that sort of most of
the the salmon from the Pacific
Northwest and allow
is largely without concern is that not
true that's not true that's not what the
testing shows when they do examine yeah
even wild CAU unfortunately now I was
just up in Iceland and I did eat fish
because I don't normally but I figured
it was far away from most things and
they heat like 80% of they use their
energy is like 80% geothermal and so I
figured that there were not going to be
because the Mercury that gets in the
oceans comes from coal plants so the
more coal plants that you get I mean
even if it's from across the seas in
Asia you know it's still getting into
our so I was in the North Atlantic I
figured that it would be more of an
option when we go my daughter loves
Sushi and so you know once a year for
new years's we get sushi and I give her
binders you know and so that's kind of
the trade-off I mean she gets binders
also if she wants to eat something
that's gluten or dairy you know so
that's kind of how we deal with some of
those things you know so that she can
still feel included and still have
experiences yeah just just a random
thought I had as you were speaking there
that just the the related to the
proportion so um if we consume a small
portion of fish and even that has a
significant enough amount of heavy
metals to be toxic to
us given that we are maybe somewhere
between let's say
10 to I don't know 50 or 100 times the
size of the actual fish itself you you
got to believe that that amount of
mercury in the fish is even way way way
more toxic to the fish than it is to us
you follow what I'm saying
here yes okay I would I mean yeah I
wonder if these fish are just swimming
around with you know barely functional
brains because of all the heavy metals
that they're getting exposed to yeah I
mean we're seeing all sorts of
interesting Trends with fish I mean I
just saw something recently that that um
that was blaming it on climate change
but we don't know whether or not there's
also this
issue
interesting okay so
um mot toxins heavy metals chronic
infections I know I want to get into
some of the brain retraining stuff with
you but was there anything else that I'm
missing in that toxic ball well I put
chemicals in there as well okay um you
know just in terms of the
exposures um you know what is it now
90,000 different chemicals were exposed
to on a regular basis you know
pesticides herbicides
Etc and as far as getting rid of those
you know obviously minimizing roots of
exposure and then using some of the same
binders that also apply to moto toxins
and heavy metals also cover some of
those chemicals or or is there some
other approach that is also
recommended no it's it's more the same I
mean what ends up happening is that you
reach a a critical mass um where you
start to um really start to excrete a
lot of these different toxins at the
same time and part of that has to do
with the fact that they are um bound to
each other and so when you're starting
to release more and we're focused on the
step three and we're opening up the exit
Pathways and we're drinking enough water
um a lot a lot of that um ends up coming
out with the rest of it but yeah it's
more the same the binders um and some of
the other heavy metal natural keyers
that we
use okay um I want to get into brain
retraining but maybe before we go there
I know that you flagged long CO as
something to talk about so um and this
is something that you know sort of early
on in the pandemic when there started to
be some increasing awareness of this
situation some some subset of people
were getting these longer term symptoms
um you sort of took a a deep interest in
that and sort of specialized in in
helping those people very early on um
now we're you know thankfully the co all
the covid mess is largely behind us um
what are your thoughts on this landscape
of long covid and I know that there was
some controversy there was some research
that was considered flawed that maybe
overestimated how prevalent as long Co
actually was uh and what what are you
finding with regards to sort of the
reality of it and how to help people
overcome
it yeah so the the research that the CDC
did came out with 20% one and five and I
think that's probably accurate it might
be a little bit higher than that just
because a lot of people don't realize
they get a new symptom and they don't
know where it comes from and so the
challenge is is that um it really is
very sneaky and you can get you know the
idea is that you know the more symptoms
that you get when you have a cold but
the more mild the symptoms are the more
likely you are to get persistent
symptoms and so you know since 2019 if
somebody gets a viral illness and then
they end up with persistent symptoms now
sometimes those symptoms go away when
they we get them they go away for a
couple of months and then they come back
and you've got a bunch of weird symptoms
whether it's fatigue or brain fog or
muscle pain joint pain
neurologic symptoms heart palpitations a
lot of these things that that are
typically weird for most people to
experience all of a sudden out of the
blue we have to start considering that
and what's interesting is that you know
a lot of people you know a lot of the
people who got sick with covid well I
don't know if this is true or not but it
seemed like I have more interest now in
my practice with long covid than I have
the last several years really so oh yeah
and I think a lot of it has to do with
the fact that lot of people went to the
their University their local
University's covid clinic and they tried
to go the conventional route and then
they started looking outside the box
after that didn't help them maybe a year
or two later sorry the convent
conventional route for treating long
covid like seeing a regular doctor
saying I have these sort of strange
symptoms long after covid can you help
me and basically those doctors are
saying we don't we we don't have any
treatment for that we don't know what to
do cor yes or they went to a covid
clinic
at their local University hospital where
they had a bunch of Specialists there
where their heart symptoms were being
treated by the cardiologist and their
lung symptoms were being treated by the
pulmonologist and their gut symptoms
were being treated by the GI and they
were all being just treated by symptoms
right right and so they're getting all
this this far poly Pharmacy where they
were getting all these different
medications and they weren't getting
to yeah
right I know and and they and they just
kept on getting worse unfortunately
right and so then they started looking
outside the box and they're like okay so
then they go to their local naturopath
or they go to their local integrative
doctor their local functional medicine
Doc and they maybe they get a little bit
better but it's and then they start
looking outside that and then outside of
the local area and that's when they're
starting to find me and they're starting
to look for people who specialize in
long covid and they're realizing that
it's really a whole new ball of wax and
that we we have to have different tools
um but it takes them a long journey you
know I had one guy right now who's doing
really well in my program about nine
months all of a sudden his energy came
back he's he's in Hollywood he started
working again doing producing stuff or
whatever he does but his wife had a call
with me two years ago and he wouldn't
get on the phone he's like I don't want
to talk to that quack right and so um it
took him those years for her to
eventually convince him like we have to
go we have to do something else we have
to think differently we have to look at
a different Paradigm we have to look at
different causes right so that's um
that's been very interesting to see
because I thought in 2020 when I was
like or 2021 when we're seeing all this
happening I'm like okay long covid is um
I can help these people because it's
it's so similar to chronic fatigue
syndrome and then nobody shows up you
know and it just seemed like they they
just wanted to go they're like I'm just
going to go to my covid clinic and I'm
going to get better and unfortunately
that didn't happen so that's the first
thing that's really interesting the
other thing is that I've seen people who
um come to see us who have long covid
and we treat them with natural
antivirals and they get better um I've
seen people who come to see us and they
have mold along with their long covid
and we treat the mold and before we even
get to antivirals they're getting better
so it really and it turns out that at
least what I'm seeing is that it really
is that combination of the heavy metals
chemicals molds other infections that
are present and then the nervous system
dysfunction function that all need to be
addressed when it comes to Long Co or
whether it's chronic fatigue syndrome or
whatever you know long Co is just
another infection right and there's
other things that we do in order to
mitigate the um the micr cloths that
people are seeing um but we already do
this when we're addressing
hypercoagulation with like the chronic
fatigue stuff so a lot of it is part and
parcel the same as kind of the other
work that we've been doing but we
definitely need different Tools in order
to address Spike protein in order to um
have different antivirals to go after um
the co and we are seeing now viral
persistence um which previously was
thought to not be the case but the virus
is persisting the spike protein is
persisting we're getting immune system
dysfunction inflammation um and so need
to address just to be clear for
listeners who might not understand that
that persistence that you're referring
to is this something analogous to let's
say uh fste bar virus sort of staying in
a in a latent state in the body sort of
going into hiding if you will or going
into dorcy for a period of time and
then when maybe you're under stress or
when there's a chemical exposure when
sort of you know your immune system is
is suppressed from some other causes in
your life now all of a sudden the virus
can sort of pop back up again absolutely
that's that's basically what you're
saying is there's some evidence that
covid is behaving like that correct wow
yeah it is persisting in the body it is
hiding it's actually able to it's been
found in every cell in the body and
that's why it can cause over 200
different symptoms wow so that's what
we're seeing and and go ahead is is
there something we can do to to help
clear this out meaning is is there also
evidence that okay it persists in some
people but it is possible to sort of
clear it out of the body and if we use
something to clear the spike proteins or
or anything along those lines is that is
that
possible yes yeah we're seeing that all
the time in our patients absolutely or
our clients um but and one and one I
guess um Public Health notice I would
say is that when you you know if you're
taking things to treat any sort of virus
I recommend that you treat it for four
weeks even after your symptoms resolve
after the first week or so because you
don't know because the testing is so
poor about whether or not you have covid
and so you just have to assume that any
virus that you get is covid and then you
have to treat it aggressively with
antivirals you know natural antivirus is
what I'm talking about vitamins high do
vitamin D vitamin C vitamin A Etc
peratin zinc um in order to make sure
that it's not going to
persist so they don't end up with long
Co got it uh I want to ask you a very
controversial question that's highly
polarized which is that there's also
quite a bit of evidence showing harms
from the covid vaccine now and while
this was disputed very early on and
people tried to suppress it and say that
anybody who questioned whether it was
safe and effective was some kind of
crazy conspiracy theorist nut job now
the evidence is pretty clear that
certain a certain subset of people
absolutely have been harmed by covid
vaccines there is also something called
some some people have termed long
vaccine but the official name in the
literature is long postco vaccination
syndrome uh is this something that
you've also worked with people on people
who have long-term side effects from
getting the covid vaccines as well yes
and I agree with you you know the
research is is definitely clear I've
seen a number of studies and
presentations on the subject um and
unfortunately um you know there there
was some initial the vaccine was helpful
for some people with some really severe
um illness and hospitalization initially
but um you know it was definitely
overused and caused more harm than good
unfortunately I believe
yeah agreed we'll leave it there in the
hopes that this episode doesn't get
censored um
so one last thing that I wanted to ask
you about is the brain retraining stuff
and um there's this term brain
retraining and this has sort of become
its own phrase uh and it's interesting
because it's it's be it's like it's it's
sort of got it's it's how should I
describe this it's almost a term that is
specific to the mecfs community the
people in that Community have been um
told about this quote unquote brain
retraining and there are specific people
like ashak Gupta and there there are now
I I I would imagine at least four or
five probably more uh different
methodologies specific methodologies
that sort of have the Paradigm
of um looking at chronic fatigue and
mecfs through this lens that it is
primarily driven by one's mindset and
belief system and the way that their
brain operates as a result of maybe um
early trauma and and chronic stress and
and things of that nature and that the
key treatment to recover from me CFS
that is in their view vastly more
important than anything else vastly more
important than nutrition or lifestyle or
or anything one might do with regards to
toxins and infections and things like
that there there a lot of these people's
frames and I'm sure some of them are
more nuanced but I'm I'm sort of in
general my experience is that most of
them sort of look at mecfs through this
lens of it's all about what's going on
in the brain we have to do this brain
retraining that's the big key to
recovery and um I think like you I've
also seen that certain people have
benefited tremendously from doing this
work um I I think like you I think you
and I agree that it is not solely what's
going on in the brain and that there are
obviously deeper physiological layers of
what's going on here um but it sounds
like you've come to sort of see this
brain retraining piece of the puzzle as
being very important what tell me about
your experience with that
yeah you know the body will heal better
when it's in more it spends more time in
the parasympathetic state right so
there's two aspects to the autonomic
nervous system the sympathetic and the
parasympathetic sympathetic is fight or
flight or freeze and the parasympathetic
is rest and digest and recover to be to
simplify it um and so whether it is from
heavy metals or chemicals or molds or
infections or from trauma or things that
happened to your past all of those
things can cause dysfunction in the
autonomic nervous system in the Vagas
nerve and so consequently that puts
people into a sympathetic
State and it's very hard for them to
heal and so a lot of the techniques that
are being used whether it's
mindset whether it
is breath
work whether it is um cognitive therapy
or catching and retraining your
different thoughts all of those things
are working to put people more into
their
parasympathetic so I didn't know much
about it until I saw people the people
who were doing it in my program got
significantly better faster right so
then it's like okay I have to look at
this right and so um yeah it's it's
definitely been a game Cher for the
people in my program the question is
always just when to introduce it because
you know and you never know whether or
not it's going to be 10% of their issue
or whether it's going to be
70% right so often
times when somebody comes to me and
they're like you know I've done a brain
retraining program for the last year and
I'm not better I'm like oh yeah you know
like you know this is going to really
help you yeah um and they continue to
use those techniques and then they just
work better when we're starting to
remove meaning you're just to clarify
for listeners so the the way that your
brain interprets that is okay you've
ruled out the extent to which the
mindset is the big thing causing your
issues and now essentially based on that
we have eliminated that variable
and or or we we know that that's not the
main cause of your symptoms so therefore
we know that it's mostly mediated
physiologically by you know things like
toxins and infections and mold and and
that sort of thing is that correct
that's correct that's what I'm saying
yeah so having that having that
combination people are always going to
get better and the question is just
about how much and you know how much is
it going to be and so that's why we
continue to incorporate more of that
into our program um and there is a
learning curve when people it's
challenging for people to do both our
program and somebody else's so generally
we recommend that they either if they're
very sensitive like they've got mcast so
that they're reacting to everything and
they can't tolerate any supplements then
we recommend that they do a brain
retraining first or nervous system
retraining whatever you want to call it
um but if they do not have that kind of
sensitivity then oftentimes we introduce
it about three or six months in um
depending on how much that they can hold
um because it is such an important
component and and what is you know given
that I said that this is sort of a
phrase that sort of means something
rather specific within the mecfs
community specifically there is this
specific sort of approach to quote
unquote brain retraining that exists in
that
Community whereas that that term brain
retraining might mean lots of other
things outside of that it could be you
know post brain injury recoveries and
and things like that um with lots of
different methodologies but here we're
talking about something that
is very from what I've seen very
cognitive in its approach very very much
about um helping people with specific
techniques that help them uh control
their thoughts and emotions better and
this this would be largely Under the
Umbrella of uh what's called top down
control which is sort of using your
prefrontal cortex to um to
to respond better to how your body is
thinking and feeling and reacting
physiologically reacting to certain
things and basically gaining that skill
set of being able to better regulate
your thoughts and
emotions I think that's somewhat
accurate I think that probably
What's
um I think there's a couple of different
level levers that are being pulled I
think the most important one is
mindfulness and this is also where I
found um psychedelics to be
supportive but having that sort of
mindfulness so that you can experience
the sensations that are happening in
your body then allows you to do
something about it cognitively so I
think that there is the thinking and the
feeling but often times we do we spend
so much time cognitive so much time in
the thinking and most of I think what
heals people is actually feeling and
getting in touch with the sensations
that are in the body and practicing that
mindfulness whether it's meditation or
something in that realm um so that they
you can experience it and then you can
do some of these techniques like if you
have if you have if you're feeling your
nervous system get dysfunctioned like if
you're I was in a conversation with my
wife we were actually having an argument
and uh and I was just so overwhelmed by
the sensation in my body and I could
have very easily started blaming her and
being upset with her like I've done in
the past but in this particular
situation I was just like whoa my body
is just going crazy right now with
sensation and I think and a lot of it
has to do with some of the
interpretation is about like inner child
work and so you know kind of putting my
hand on my chest and being like okay
you're safe you're loved you're enough
like you're safe like this conversation
does not indicate that you're not safe
right so I think feeling it and then
being able to cognitively provide some
sort of um support for the sensation
allows the sensation to disperse and
that ends up helping to retrain the
nervous system but that's just you know
I'm not an expert in this I'm still
learning about it so that is my
understanding about um about what's
happening and so and yeah and then and
then there's when you're doing something
like the breath work that is not
cognitive also so that's just you're
doing box breathing because that helps
to move you into parasympathetic or
you're doing some sort of yogic
breathing that helps to move you into
parasympathetic so this is this is
bottom up basically how the the breath
interfaces with the nervous system so by
you know the nervous Sy the the breath
being this link between something that
is under non-conscious control but we
can also consciously control it and so
by virtue of that B directional effect
we can modulate the breath to modulate
the nervous
system that's right I forgot you're a
breath expert so yeah so yeah so that's
I'm glad you put some terms to it so top
down versus bottom up um yeah that's
helpful so yeah I would definitely say
bottom up is is what I recommend and
what I see to be super helpful in my own
life and and talking with our clients um
but there I think that there is kind of
this mindset cognitive component but I
think that you have to incorporate the
other as well yeah from what I've seen
some of the methods that I've seen in
the in the
CFS Community around brain retraining
are very much like NLP based specific
techniques that would I think largely be
categorized as cognitive behavioral type
um therapies that are about like thought
stopping you know so noticing if you're
having negative thoughts and sort of
really having a specific technique to
notice when that's happening and to
catch yourself and interrupt it and
replace it with positive thoughts and
sort of helping learn the cognitive
technique of just regulating your own
thoughts getting yourself out of you
know sort of these patterns of spiraling
out of control of negative thoughts and
emotions and some people um some some of
these techniques to be honest don't
resonate with me so much but um I I have
seen a number of people who report uh
really tremendous benefits from it I I
would say that in general my biases also
like yours I think towards more of the
some of the bottomup approaches um but I
think for some people that really I
don't know there's some people that seem
to have this sort of
catastrophic um that I I think they are
I think catastrophizing is the word that
would be used in psychological circles
where some little thing happens and then
all of a sudden they spiral out of
control with just the series of negative
thought and emotional patterns and
catastrophizing around every little
event and so when you do that around
every little event it's like your whole
life becomes dominated by just this
constant uh state of stress and and
catastrophizing over every little thing
and I've seen people in that state and I
I think it's definitely the case that
they can use some some specific
cognitive techniques to sort of
interrupt that
pattern and I do I have found personally
that the mindfulness ends up leading to
that so I like to combine them both
because the mindfulness allows me to
stop and see what I'm thinking and then
to catch myself so I talk to myself a
lot more these days than I ever have
because I'll stop and I'll be like that
really that thought really doesn't serve
me right now you know scarcity around
whatever right um it be like let's
choose a different thought that feels
good right so that's kind of how I work
with it
um in in my in my beginner Journey on
you know um that that's been helpful for
me yeah beautiful Evan this has been a
really fun conversation it's it's been
great to catch up with you uh let people
know where they can find you follow you
work with you anything else you want to
leave people
with so they can find me at energy MD
method.com and there's a little button
in the bottom right hand corner where
they can text me and we can start a
conversation I've got free 20-minute
calls if they're interested in in
getting on a call and seeing whether I
can help them I'll go through a little
bit of their history and let them know
whether I feel like I can and if not I
will send them
elsewhere awesome thank you so much for
coming on the show again it was awesome
to reconnect with you and um let me know
if you want to come on again soon and
and talk about anything else it was an
absolute pleasure thank you so much for
sharing your your knowledge and your
wisdom your accumulated experience over
many years of sort of in the trench's
clinical experience with mecfs uh with
my audience I I really appreciate it
thanks for having me onor I appreciate
it
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