Mitochondria, Cell Danger Response, Antioxidant Myths, and more with Ari Whitten

Summary

In this episode of the Energy Blueprint Podcast, host Ari Whitten discusses the cell danger response with Dr. David Jockers. They delve into how mitochondria act as the body's environmental sensors, shifting the body into 'wartime metabolism' when under threat. The conversation explores the importance of understanding this response for managing chronic inflammation and disease. They also touch on the role of phytochemicals, antioxidants, and the significance of building physiological resilience through hormetic stressors like exercise and cognitive challenges.

Takeaways

• 🧬 The cell danger response is a model that explains physiological processes in health and disease, emphasizing the role of mitochondria as central to metabolism and cellular defense.
• 🔋 Mitochondria serve as the 'central hub' of metabolism, not just as energy generators but also as sensors that detect environmental threats and respond accordingly.
• ⚠️ When mitochondria perceive a significant threat, they shift from 'peacetime' to 'wartime' metabolism, initiating the cell danger response to protect the body from harm.
• 🌱 The cell danger response involves complex interactions with phytochemicals in plants, which are deeper and more nuanced than commonly understood.
• 🏋️‍♂️ Exercise and other hormetic stressors, like cold exposure and fasting, can stimulate the cell danger response positively, leading to increased resilience and health when applied correctly.
• 🧠 Cognitive reserve capacity, similar to physical resilience, can be built up through learning and mental challenges, offering protection against neurodegenerative diseases.
• 🔄 The quality and quantity of mitochondria are highly malleable, influenced by lifestyle choices such as exercise, which can counteract age-related decline.
• 🌡️ Oxidative stress, often viewed negatively, is a necessary signal for the body to adapt and build a stronger antioxidant response, including within the mitochondria.
• 🌿 Many phytochemicals act as xenohormetic stressors, inducing low-level oxidative stress that, when managed, can lead to beneficial cellular adaptations.
• 🧪 The body's resilience to stress is trainable, much like physical strength, and includes psychological aspects such as willpower and emotional resilience.

Q & A

What is the main focus of the 'Energy Blueprint Podcast'?

The 'Energy Blueprint Podcast' focuses on health and wellness, often featuring interviews with experts to discuss topics such as mitochondria, cell danger response, and chronic inflammation.

Who is Dr. David Jockers and what is his role in the podcast episode?

Dr. David Jockers is a practitioner who interviewed Ari Whitten for his 'Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.' In the podcast episode, he is the one who conducted the interview with Ari, which is then shared on the 'Energy Blueprint Podcast'.

What is the cell danger response and why is it important?

The cell danger response is a model that conceptualizes physiological processes in health and disease states, particularly focusing on how mitochondria react to perceived threats by shifting from energy production to a defense mode. It's important for understanding complex chronic illnesses and inflammation.

How do mitochondria function beyond just energy production?

Beyond energy production, mitochondria act as environmental sensors, detecting threats and contributing to cellular defense mechanisms. They are central to the cell danger response and are involved in many biochemical reactions and physiological processes in the body.

What is the relationship between the cell danger response and chronic inflammation?

Chronic inflammation can result from a persistent cell danger response, where the body is continually perceiving threats and not able to complete the healing cycle, leading to an ongoing state of 'wartime metabolism' and inflammation.

What factors can keep the body stuck in the cell danger response?

The body can get stuck in the cell danger response due to continuous exposure to stressors that initially triggered it, such as toxins, heavy metals, or psychological stress, without allowing the body time and space to recover.

How does the homeodynamic space model differ from the allostatic load model?

The homeodynamic space model expands on the allostatic load model by incorporating the concept of stress buffering capacity, which is the organism's resilience to stressors. It suggests that resilience is as important as the stressors themselves in determining health.

What role do phytochemicals play in health according to the podcast?

Phytochemicals are discussed as being more complex than commonly believed, with many acting as xenohormetic stressors that induce a low-level oxidative stress, signaling the body to build up its antioxidant response and bolster cellular health.

Why is it counterproductive to take antioxidant supplements with exercise?

Taking antioxidant supplements with exercise can be counterproductive because the oxidative stress created by exercise is a signal for the body to build up its internal antioxidant system and increase mitochondrial biogenesis. Reducing this oxidative stress with supplements can inhibit these beneficial adaptations.

What is the significance of hormetic stressors in building resilience?

Hormetic stressors, such as exercise, cold exposure, and fasting, impose a low level of stress that, when managed properly, can signal the body to adapt and become more resilient. These stressors are crucial for stimulating adaptations that enhance health and longevity.

How can one start improving their physiological resilience?

To improve physiological resilience, one can engage in hormetic stressors like regular exercise, cognitive challenges, cold exposure, and fasting. It's important to find the right dose that provides a stimulus for adaptation without causing harm.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Interview Context

Ari Whitten introduces the podcast episode featuring an interview he did with Dr. David Jockers for the 'Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.' The interview covers topics like mitochondria, cell danger response, and the complex narratives around antioxidants and oxidants. Ari emphasizes the importance of understanding these topics beyond the typical discussions in functional medicine and natural health circles.

05:03

🧬 Delving into the Cell Danger Response

The conversation with Dr. Jockers explores the cell danger response, a concept introduced by Dr. Robert Naviaux. It's a model that explains physiological processes in health and disease, with mitochondria playing a central role. Mitochondria are described as the 'central hub of metabolism,' moving beyond their traditional portrayal as mere energy generators to being key players in cellular defense and sensing environmental threats.

10:03

🛡️ Mitochondria's Dual Role in Cellular Defense

Ari and Dr. Jockers discuss the dual role of mitochondria as energy producers and cellular defense sensors. Mitochondria assess the cellular environment for safety, switching between 'peacetime' and 'wartime' metabolism based on perceived threats. This can lead to increased oxidative stress and inflammation, which are part of the body's defense mechanisms against threats.

15:05

🔄 The Healing Cycle and Chronic Inflammation

The discussion shifts to the factors that can keep the body stuck in the cell danger response, leading to chronic inflammation. Examples include persistent exposure to toxins or heavy metals. The speakers emphasize the importance of completing the healing cycle and returning to a state of health, which is disrupted by ongoing stressors.

20:07

🌐 Modern Stressors and Their Impact on Health

Ari explains how modern lifestyle and environmental stressors can lead to chronic activation of the cell danger response, resulting in disease. He introduces the allostatic load model and the homeodynamic space model, which includes the concept of stress buffering capacity. The conversation highlights the need to reduce stressors and build physiological resilience.

25:08

🏋️‍♂️ The Role of Exercise and Other Stressors in Health

The speakers discuss how exercise and other hormetic stressors like cold exposure, fasting, and phytochemicals can prime the body for resilience. These stressors, when applied appropriately, can signal the body to build up its antioxidant response and improve mitochondrial function, leading to better stress resilience and health.

30:10

🧠 Cognitive Reserve and Brain Health

Ari talks about cognitive reserve capacity, drawing parallels with physical resilience. He explains that learning and challenging the brain can build cognitive reserve, which protects against neurodegenerative diseases. The conversation underscores the importance of mental and physical activities in maintaining health and preventing disease.

35:10

🌱 Phytochemicals as Stressors for Health

The discussion highlights the role of phytochemicals, commonly misunderstood as mere antioxidants. Instead, they act as xenohormetic stressors, inducing low-level oxidative stress that signals the body to bolster its internal antioxidant systems, thus promoting health and resilience.

40:11

🏃‍♂️ Exercise, Adaptation, and the Importance of Balance

Ari and Dr. Jockers emphasize the importance of exercise as a hormetic stressor that, when balanced correctly, can signal the body to increase its bioenergetic capacity and stress resilience. They discuss how excessive exercise or the wrong type of stress can be detrimental, highlighting the need for balance in stress application.

45:11

🌿 The Complex Role of Oxidative Stress in Health

The speakers delve into the complex role of oxidative stress, explaining how it's not inherently bad but a signaling mechanism for the body to adapt and build a stronger antioxidant system. They discuss how antioxidant supplements can interfere with these adaptations, emphasizing the importance of understanding stress as a signal for growth.

50:12

💪 The Power of Behavioral Influence on Physiology

Ari concludes the interview by stressing the malleability of our physiology and the significant impact of our behaviors on health. He encourages listeners to take control of their health by building capacities through appropriate lifestyle choices, emphasizing that we are not just victims of our biochemistry but can actively shape it.

Keywords

💡Mitochondria

Mitochondria are often referred to as the 'powerhouses' of the cell, responsible for converting nutrients into energy through cellular respiration. In the video, it's discussed that mitochondria play a more complex role than just energy production. They are central to the cell danger response and are described as the 'central hub of metabolism,' highlighting their importance in health and disease processes. The script mentions that mitochondria are sensitive environmental sensors, switching between 'peacetime' and 'wartime' metabolism based on perceived threats.

💡Cell Danger Response

The cell danger response is a model that explains how cells react to stress or 'danger' signals. It is a central theme in the video, where it's discussed that this response can shift cellular metabolism from energy production to defense mode. The script explains that if the perceived threat is too great, the cell danger response can lead to chronic inflammation and disease if not properly resolved.

💡Oxidative Stress

Oxidative stress is a condition that occurs when the balance between free radicals and antioxidants is disrupted in favor of the former. The video script discusses how oxidative stress is a signal for cells to increase their bioenergetic capacity, leading to mitochondrial growth and biogenesis. It's also mentioned that oxidative stress is a natural byproduct of certain beneficial activities like exercise, which, when managed correctly, can lead to improved cellular resilience.

💡Inflammation

Inflammation is a protective response of the body to infection or injury. In the context of the video, inflammation is discussed as a signal for immune system cells to combat threats. However, unresolved inflammation can lead to chronic conditions, which is a key point in understanding the cell danger response and its implications for health.

💡Antioxidants

Antioxidants are molecules that inhibit the oxidation of other molecules, thereby preventing cell damage. The script challenges the common belief about antioxidants by explaining that while they are beneficial, they should not be used to suppress the oxidative stress signal that is necessary for cellular adaptation and growth. This highlights the importance of balance in cellular processes.

💡Hormetic Stressors

Hormetic stressors are stimuli that, at low levels, trigger an adaptive response that leads to a state of enhanced resistance or resilience. The video discusses various types of hormetic stressors, such as exercise, cold exposure, and fasting, which when applied in the right doses, can prime the body for resilience and improve health outcomes.

💡Allostatic Load

Allostatic load refers to the cost of maintaining homeostasis in the face of chronic stress. The video script uses this term to describe the total burden of stress on the body, which if high enough, can lead to the onset of disease. It's contrasted with the concept of resilience, which is the body's ability to withstand and adapt to stress.

💡Resilience

Resilience in the video is discussed as the body's ability to recover and adapt in response to stress. It's highlighted as a critical factor in maintaining health and preventing disease. The script emphasizes building resilience, particularly in the context of mitochondrial health and cognitive function.

💡Cognitive Reserve Capacity

Cognitive reserve capacity is the brain's ability to withstand age-related cognitive decline. The video script explains that engaging in activities that challenge the brain, such as learning new skills, can increase this capacity, thereby enhancing the brain's resilience to stress and potentially delaying the onset of neurodegenerative diseases.

💡Mitochondrial Biogenesis

Mitochondrial biogenesis is the process by which new mitochondria are formed. The script discusses how certain stressors, when managed correctly, can signal the need for increased bioenergetic capacity, leading to the growth and multiplication of mitochondria. This process is crucial for cellular health and energy production.

💡Homeodynamic Space Model

The homeodynamic space model is a concept introduced in the video to describe a more comprehensive view of health and disease than the allostatic load model. It incorporates the body's stress buffering capacity, or resilience, as a key factor in determining health outcomes. The model suggests that both the load of stress and the body's resilience to stress are critical in understanding disease processes.

Highlights

Introduction to the podcast featuring an interview with Dr. David Jockers for the Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.

Discussion on the cell danger response as a model for understanding health and disease states.

Mitochondria's role as the central hub of metabolism and their dual function in energy production and cellular defense.

The shift from peacetime to wartime metabolism in response to perceived threats or stressors.

The importance of understanding the complex story of antioxidants, oxidants, and free radicals.

Insights on phytochemicals in plants and their deeper impact on health beyond common beliefs.

The concept of allostatic load and its role in the development of chronic disease.

The homeodynamic space model as an advanced approach to understanding health and disease.

The significance of physiological resilience in maintaining health and preventing chronic inflammation.

How cognitive reserve capacity builds resilience and protects against neurodegenerative diseases.

The impact of aging on mitochondrial capacity and the role of lifestyle in either maintaining or reducing this capacity.

The hormetic effects of stressors like exercise, cold exposure, and fasting in building resilience.

The importance of the right dose of stressors to stimulate adaptation without causing harm.

The role of phytochemicals as xenohormetic stressors that signal the body to build stronger antioxidant systems.

The counterintuitive finding that antioxidant supplements can inhibit the benefits of exercise by reducing oxidative stress signals.

The psychological aspects of stress resilience and the trainability of mental capacities like courage and willpower.

Final thoughts on the malleability of physiology and the impact of behaviors on health, disease prevention, and longevity.

Transcripts

you are not as um so much of the the

medical narrative wants to to push on

you sort of just a victim of

biochemicals floating around in your

body hey this is Ari welcome back to the

energy blueprint podcast in today's

episode i Am featuring

myself this is an interview that Dr

David jockers did with me for his recent

conquering chronic inflammation Summit

uh which took place in August and their

team shared this interview with me uh

for us to share freely on our platform

uh and with the hopes of course that you

guys would maybe be interested in going

to check out uh Dr David jer's work and

the Conquering chronic inflammation

Summit which I highly recommend you do

and so we got this interview and we

decided to do something different for

this week's podcast instead of me

interviewing another expert we decided

to share one of the many interviews uh

that people do with me so I often am

interviewed for various online Health

Summits and health documentaries usually

two or three times per week on average

and maybe some of you maybe a lot of you

see those on other people's um online

Summits and documentaries and things

like that um but if you don't we're

going to feature one of those here on

the energy blueprint podcast so in this

episode I have a wonderful conversation

with Dr David jockers and we get into a

a lot of great stuff uh around

mitochondria around the cell danger

response around the story of

antioxidants and oxidants or free

radicals or reactive oxygen species uh

and a lot of layers to that story that

most people are unaware of and most

people find pretty shocking uh to to

actually sort of uncover that the story

is quite a bit more complex than you've

been led to believe the story of also a

lot of the phytochemicals in plants is

also much deeper and more complicated

than most people believe uh so we get

into a lot of that a lot of different

layers of insight around mitochondria

beyond the typical thing that you hear

in functional medicine and natural

health circles um sort of you know

mitochondrial dysfunction just take your

CoQ10 and B vitamins and pqq and

alphalipoic acid and that sort of thing

um the story is quite a bit deeper there

as well so there's a lot of great stuff

here that I think you will get a lot of

value from and with no further Ado enjoy

this episode of yours truly Ari Whitten

always great to connect with you and

always enjoy our conversations and one

of the main topics I love talking with

you about is the cell danger response

because really not many functional

practitioners or conventional I mean

really conventional doctors this isn't

even on their radar and most functional

practitioners aren't even really aware

of it or at least not able to

communicate it effectively but but this

is a it's really the way that we need to

start looking at complex chronic illness

chronic inflammation it's essential to

really understanding physiological

processes in our body and so let's break

this down cell danger response and its

relationship with chronic

inflammation okay so that's a big

question um let's see where to

begin the cell danger response is

um it's a model

uh a

hypothesis um and a a a way of

conceptualizing what's going on

physiologically in health and disease

States uh and it comes from a researcher

an mdphd who runs a lab for

mitochondrial medicine at the University

of California San Diego named Dr Robert

navio and I think about 10 years ago he

published sort of the seminal paper that

was called the cell Danger resp response

and this was the first outline of this

model this way of understanding um a

disease and and health processes and and

he he puts this really at the center of

the vast majority of disease processes

he's since since published a number of

papers since then uh developing this

model uh adding new layers of insights

to it also testing it you know testing

lots of of things related to it in his

lab in at

UCSD um and I think the most recent

paper uh came out in 2023 which was

titled let me see if I can find it

mitochondrial and metabolic features of

Salu Genesis and the healing cycle I

particularly like this because salog

Genesis or

salutogenesis which is the Genesis the

creation of Health as distinct from

pathogenesis the creation of disease

processes which is the focus of really

the entire entire of of modern medicine

um is a big focus of mine at at this

moment so um the basic idea of the cell

danger response has a lot to do with

mitochondria okay mitochondria are in Dr

nao's words the central Hub of the wheel

of

metabolism the metabolism is a word that

most of us kind of associate with like

weight loss and you know how many

calories we burn but the the actual

meaning of that word that that's resting

metabolic rate right um and and that

word has been has sort of morphed into

metabolism but the true meaning of the

word metabolism is actually all of the

biochemical reactions that occur in your

body like basically everything that's

going on in your body everywhere in your

body is metabolism and uh what what Dr

navio is saying is that mitochondria are

the central hub Hub of all of this of

everything that's going on in your body

which is this in itself is a really

important thing to understand

because the way we all learned like you

and me and all of our friends and

colleagues we all learned about

mitochondria starting you know in grade

school and in high school and in college

and in graduate school and Physiology

and in in in medical school all all of

these things it it was taught to us as

really just the PowerHouse of the cell

that's the thing we got remember on our

exams we learned the electron transport

chain we learn how mitochondria turn um

fuel carbohydrates and fats ketones into

energy in the form of ATP but really

they're framed as these sort of mindless

cellular energy generators that really

all they do is they take in fuel from

our food and they pump out ATP and

that's kind of you learn the different

process of nadh and fadh and you know

this whole electron transport chain

stuff and CoQ10 and blah blah blah and

ATP synthes and it pumps out ATP but

really the whole thing at the end of the

day is is really they take in fuel they

pump out energy they're mindless

cellular energy generators and what Dr

nav's work did with the cell danger

response was synthesize a huge body of

evidence that has been accumulating over

the last two or three decades um from

researchers all over the world on the

other rol

of mitochondria like all these other

things that mitoch that we've been

discovering that mitochondria do and it

turns out they do a lot um of different

things in our body and they're really

important to almost everything that you

could imagine and you can you can learn

this really quickly by sort of Googling

um any medical concept you can think up

or any disease you can think up and

mitochondria and you'll probably find a

whole bunch of papers on that now um so

the the the the simplified idea of the

cell danger response is really that um

and I'm I'm removing a lot of the

complexity here intentionally for the

sake of understanding but the basic idea

is that mitochondria actually have two

major roles one is the story that we

were all told in our education which is

energy generators okay they they they

are these things that they do take in

fuel they pump out energy okay that's

one major role that mitochondria has

the other major role that they have is

in Cellular Defense and it turns out

that they are basically functioning as

the canaries in the coal mine of our

body they are these sort of exquisitely

sensitive environmental sensors that are

constantly taking samples of what's

going on inside the cell in in the

environment to perceive the environment

and they're asking the

question is it safe for us to produce

energy okay they're they're trying to

get a picture of whether the body is

under threat or under attack in some way

and if it isn't then they're going to

operate in what Dr navio calls peacetime

metabolism and they're going to produce

energy in abundance and everything's

great however to the extent that they

pick up on danger signals on threat

signals that the body is under attack in

some way and we can talk in detail of

what what that means and how it how it's

sensed

um to the extent that they pick up on

those signals and to the extent that

those signals are perceived to be an

overwhelming threat that surpasses their

capacity to deal with that threat then

they shift from energy mode from

peacetime metabolism into wartime

metabolism into the cell danger response

and what that cell danger response is

all about is fighting off and

combating the the threat and protecting

the body as much as possible from that

threat and what what happens in this

state um the first phase of the cell

danger response uh which is really the

most important phase this is this is

sort of the Crux of what the cell danger

response is is it really revolves around

okay we're battening down the hatches we

are trying to decrease the amount of

signaling and communication going on

we're shutting down cellular energy

production we're throwing off lots of

oxidative stress we're creating lots of

inflammation to signal for our immune

system cells to to come into this area

which might be the whole body or might

be systemic in the blood um or might be

localized to a particular area we're

we're signaling for the immune system

via oxidative stress via inflammation to

attack to defend the body and combat

this threat okay so um as an analogy

imagine that you know you're in your

house and um you're preparing dinner

you're chopping vegetables and you're

you're making dinner for your kids and

then a criminal breaks in puts puts a

gun to your head says give me all your

money give me all your valuable stuff

you're not just going to keep chopping

vegetables and preparing dinner as

normal you have to to stop doing that

you've got to deal with the threat so to

to the extent that the body is under

attack and under threat it's turning

down the dial on all of the normal

healthy metabolic processes and energy

production in particular and switching

to a mode of Defense wartime metabolism

and combating that threat so it's

important to understand these two modes

energy production mode and defense mode

the cell danger response are mutually

exclusive to the extent you're doing one

you're not doing the other yeah it's a

great explanation I think about the

mitochondria as the nervous system of

the cell basically like the brain and

nervous system and so we used to think

they just had a motor function kind of

like your nervous system tells your arm

you know your bicep to flex um but we

know the nervous system was constantly

taking in input right and adapting to

the environment around it and that's

basically what the mitochondria are

doing they have an aeren and eer or a a

a sensory and motor function and they're

adapting to basically give us the

greatest possible survival advantage and

in some cases that means turning up

oxidative stress in fact happens often

turning up oxidative stress which is a

precursor to

inflammation and turning up inflammation

but that should be for a short period of

time until we complete the healing cycle

and return back to a peacetime

physiology but there are many factors

that can keep us in this wartime

physiology and when we're stuck in that

when we in we have an incomplete healing

cycle and we're stuck in this wartime

physiology that's when we end up with

over time chronic inflammatory

conditions and so what are the things

what are some of the main factors that

hey that was that was a great that was a

great followup to everything I explained

that was like the the next layer of what

I was going to explain you we're like

tag teaming this that's it well I've

been studying this for a while now too

and uh you know credit to you as well

you're one of the the the people that

turned me on to the saw danger response

and as you know once you go down this

Rabbit Hole uh you know it's really

fascinating and it changes the way you

view how the body adapts and so it's

something I've been studying and really

doing my best to try to be able to

communicate as well awesome you're doing

a great

job great so let's go into things that

can keep us stuck in that cell danger

response and incomplete basically you

know we need to complete the healing

cycle if we don't what obviously that

that's going to lead to chronic

inflammation so what keeps us stuck in

the cell danger response okay so uh you

know there's there's a a simple and

short answer to this and there's a

longer more complex answer and there's a

whole lot of nuance and potential

complexities that could be involved as

well the very simple and short version

is if the stressors that are inducing

the state of cell danger response in the

first place are continually present

without letting up that you can expect

the cell danger response to be more

persistent or chronic or the body to get

stuck in that place so as an example you

know we can think of the cell danger

response the normal inflammatory process

in the context of let's say AC an acute

injury like you're playing soccer you

spraying your ankle you've got

inflammation and swelling and redness

and you've got an inflammatory response

in that area immune cells are activated

to to take care of that um and repair

the damage or the same is true like in

the context of uh common cold or flu or

covid or you know in the context of an

infection you got this transient

activation for several days maybe a

couple weeks um to deal with the threat

and then you have resolution and this is

the cell danger response phase two and

phase three and then ultimately getting

back to health and normal function um so

this this is a cyclical process Health

okay now we've got to deal with a threat

cell danger response one cell danger

response Phase 2 three and back to

health okay and that's that's designed

that that that's how this system is

designed to function and functions very

well in the context of acute stressors

injuries

infections most

things that we're we are designed

ancestrally to deal with now this

picture so in the modern world this

picture changes um and we sometimes have

different stressors that we can be

exposed to that are relatively chronic

or persistent so for example if we've

got um uh heavy Le you know heavy metals

um exposure that stays stuck in our body

for a long period of time if we are

chronically getting exposed to mot

toxins from the place we live um or if

we're getting exposed to other toxins

from our food from our water supply from

the air we're breathing constantly um

and we are not escaping that you know if

if it's sort of just a chronic

NeverEnding unrelenting onslaught of

stress that the body is trying to deal

with we can't expect it to return to

health and normal function because it's

still trying to deal with those threats

so it it hasn't had the time and the

space to be removed from the sources of

stress to be able to recover so that

that's the the very simple version of it

is as long as you have these stressors

that have triggered you into the cell

danger response in the first place still

present in your life you can expect to

stay in the cell danger

response the more complex answer to this

is we have

to I I'll explain two models of um ways

of understanding conceptualizing disease

so one is called the

allostatic model um allostatic load

model of health and disease and this

this is the dominant model the way that

most people in functional medicine and

and natural health tend to understand

health and and Bas the basic idea is the

more we have total body stress load from

toxins from sleep deprivation and

circadian rhythm disruption um from

psychological stress uh from all sources

from relationships from our job from you

know traffic jams from whatever we're

dealing with um the more we have a poor

diet the more we drink alcohol the more

we smoke the more we um sort of get all

the the fundamentals wrong in the way

that we are living and the environment

we're in the more we have these

stressors that are uh impinging on our

body's ability to maintain homeostasis

and this is basically called allostatic

load or total body stress load and at at

a certain point at a a certain

threshold when those to when that

allostatic load gets big enough the body

stops being able to maintain

homeostasis okay and then and then we

have the beginnings of symptoms and

disease and our physical

decline okay and that's that's a really

good useful um and highly accurate model

and way to understand human health um

but it it doesn't go quite far enough

and there's a better better model that

is not very well known um um outside of

geroscience circles geroscience is the

study of human aging study of Aging in

general um and this is called the

homeodynamic space model of human health

and basically the homeodynamic space

model incorporates everything from the

allostatic load model for the most part

but it adds one layer to this to to the

discussion which is what is the

organism's stress buffering capacity so

res yes exactly so um the allostatic

load model generally says okay we've

we've got you know these stressors these

stressors cause disease um what do we do

to fix the situation we do our best to

remove these sources of stressors on the

organism great awesome however what's

missing from this picture is resilience

the resilience and the the the ability

to resist these stressors without being

damaged by them is also Central in this

picture and the more that you understand

what resilience actually is

physiologically and how the modern world

affects it the more you realize that

physiological resilience is actually

just as big of a player in this

discussion as all of these different

stressors of the modern world so what

what we really have and I'll tie this

back into the cell danger response what

we really have is yes we've got a modern

world and environment

that have a high allostatic load that

strain the body's ability to maintain a

state of health in homeostasis and we've

also got a modern world and a modern

lifestyle that drives loss of

physiological resilience in numerous of

the systems of our body that are

critical in resisting the negative

effects of these stressors the

allostatic load and what that does is it

shifts the balance to make us much more

easily overwhelmed by these stressors in

in our life and in our environment and

when if you remember what I said earlier

when I was describing the cell danger

response it's when the mitochondria

perceived themselves to be under an

Attack under attack to a degree that

they don't have the capacity to deal

with and that was an illusion to

physiological resilience

so that picture more Al estatic load

less L resilience leads to a situation

where we are much more likely to be

overwhelmed by the stressors in our

environment and to be stuck in the cell

danger response so there's two things we

have to fix we have to minimize and

reduce and eliminate the sources of

allostatic load as much as possible from

our from our life and we have to build

resilience back into our physiology in

in order to shift ourselves out of this

chronic state of inflammation this

chronic state of the cell danger

response that's a great explanation and

you you said that that theory is the

homeodynamic what was it the

homeodynamic homeodynamic space model

space model and so if we were to put

that into a math equation from what what

I'm understanding you

saying if if it was like a division

problem the Alo the overall allostatic

load or kind of the cumulative effect of

toxins infections stressors on our body

would be at the top can't remember what

the numerator denominator is so it's at

the top yeah and then it's being divided

by your overall stress resilience which

would be pretty much determined by the

amount of healthy high functioning

mitochondria within the cells of the

body I would imagine that would be uh a

big factor when it comes to your overall

stress resilience and that would be at

the bottom right so the so it would be

being divided by that and the higher

overall number you know so equal to the

higher overall number would be more of

in a sense the downward pressure causing

causing causing you to stay stuck in the

cell danger response developing uh

chronic disease

whereas the lower the number because you

have a higher number at the bottom the

division number lower allostatic load at

the top um the more overall resilient

your body is and the lower the potential

for developing chronic

illness I believe

so and and I say that because I've never

conceptualize this uh in terms of math

well that's why we're having

conversations like this you know so I'll

tell you I and and I certainly

understand what you're what you're

getting at here um and I'll tell you how

I think about it so um and I'll give

some examples um think I'm gonna put

that into an infographic and send it

over to you yeah there there are

infographics on this if somebody wants

to do a Google image search so what what

the infographics that I like generally

show are um let's imagine

that we have a line here that is our

threshold for where we so like a picture

a bar graph okay

so we we have a line here like through

the middle of the graph that is our

threshold where if if we go below that

line um in terms of our resilience

we now have

basically let's see how I want to

explain this um this is sort of the

critical threshold and if you go under

this capacity this threshold you start

to get the beginnings of disease

processes okay so this this this bar

represents your stress buffering

capacity and if it shrinks to the point

where it goes below this bar now you've

got the beginnings of disease okay so um

mitochondria play a central role in this

I'll talk about that in a minute but

I'll give another example because

actually this principle extends to

almost every system of the body and this

is actually the subject of the book I've

been writing for the last year

um but you'd be shocked at how many

different systems of the body this

applies to so I'll give one example here

um there is something in that that is in

the literature called cognitive Reserve

capacity it's also called there's

another distinct Concept in the

literature called brain Reserve capacity

these two things are actually much more

overlapping than a lot of the literature

um sort of indicates or tries to imply

but basically what this is is the

concept that I'm describing it's the

homeodynamic space of the brain um now

what builds this homeodynamic space of

the brain this cognitive Reserve

capacity

turns out learning things builds your

cognitive Reserve capacity learning

things learning new things challenging

things

challenges the neural circuitry of your

brain much like lifting heavy weights

challenges your muscles to grow bigger

and stronger and in response they do

grow bigger and stronger the neural the

neuronal circuitry of your brain

literally structurally grows stronger um

and this is mediated by a whole number

of things different different molecules

dendritic spines better connections

between neurons specific neurons and

networks of neurons and the actual

physical structural robustness of

certain areas of the

brain and that that's you know you can

actually see if you do a brain

scan and this cognitive Reserve capacity

um came to be discovered basically

because they found that people who had

more education in their life more formal

education were had were strongly

protected from neurodegenerative

diseases like Alzheimer's and Dementia

okay so learning things like going to

school and learning things or learning a

language or learning a musical

instrument or even learning physical

things like dancing or a

sport creates more cognitive Reserve

capacity in the brain which actually

translates into being able to resist a

lot of the forces that would otherwise

degenerate the brain and end up with

with uh giving you Dementia or

Alzheimer's dementia okay so if you

picture that that bar graph that I

described before and here's the cut off

for where you start getting Alzheimer's

or

dementia and somebody with high

cognitive Reserve capacity who has spent

a lot of their life engaged in Active

Learning and education is way up here in

terms of their stress buffering capacity

so they can go many many more years and

and endure a lot more stress on that

system before they ever get down to that

that threshold where they're going to

start exhibiting dementia and

Alzheimer's disease whereas somebody

with much lower Reserve capacity in

their brain is has a much smaller window

of time and much smaller capacity uh to

endure stress on that system before

before that system degenerates to the

point where now you're exhibiting

Alzheimer's disease and dementia so this

this is a spectrum and it is about your

physiological resilience and capacity to

endure stress on that system whether

it's biochemical stress whether it's

toxins whether it's sleep deprivation

any any type of stress on that system um

your Your Capacity to resist it without

being damaged and to resist it long

enough that it ends up not being the

thing that kills you now that principle

that I just

described um again I'm writing a book

basically you know one chapter of the

book is on cognitive Reserve capacity

but the other chapters are on all the

other physiological capacities in the

different areas of our body and how they

protect us against disease and and

bolster our Health and

Longevity but mitochondria as you said

are also Central to this story and um

this is a bio our bioenergetic Reserve

capacity and one of the things that we

have to understand

is basically any type of stressor you

can imagine any type of stress on that

system is creating a bioenergetic stress

on that system so whether it's toxins

whether it's sleep deprivation whether

it's even healthy things like exercise

or learning things like I just described

in the brain um and and all the sources

of bad stress and allostatic load you

can imagine they are all creating an

energetic stress on on the cells of the

body as well and the capacity of your

mitochondria to meet that and and handle

that energetic stress or not handle it

is a huge determinant of whether you

will end up with your mitochondria

shifted into the cell danger response so

let me let me give you another data

point to overlay on this um it's been

shown in a number of studies that the

average 70-year-old has lost 75% of

their mitochondrial

capacity okay and this is a combination

of of of two things the mitochondria

themselves are shrinking physically

shrinking to about half the size and the

number of mitochondria that are present

per cell are also being reduced to about

half half the size and the combination

of those two things if you do the math

um since you're math guy apparently um

better than me uh the combination of

those two things is a loss of 75% of

your mitochondrial capacity now I I hate

percentages because it doesn't really do

this Justice to for people to really get

this what this means is that if you were

at 100% capacity when you were 20 and

you're now at 25% of Your Capacity this

is like going from a Ferrari V8 engine

in your cells when you were 20 to a

moped engine in your cells when you're

25

do you think that that affects your

ability to resist and to handle or

resist bioenergetic stresses to to to

resist the forces of stress on that

system absolutely it affects it to a

massive massive degree and and this is

fundamentally why um mitochondrial

dysfunction this kind of buzzword um in

in in Natural Health now um is linked

with so many different disase processes

yeah yeah for sure I always say the

quality of your life is going to come

down to the amount of mitochondria and

the quality of the mitochondria because

there's a big difference between a ccent

mitochondria which all of us have to

some degree and a young very stress

resilient mitochondria there's a night

and day difference there and so you may

have a certain amount of mitochondria

but a high percentage of those are ccent

um or age dysfunctional mitochondria in

a sense um your overall functionality

and your stress resilience going to be a

lot lower than somebody that has the

same amount of mitochondria but a higher

percentage of stress resilient high

functioning mitochondria that's right

yeah and and I'm glad you brought that

up

because I left one key point out of the

the story that I just told which is as

you just implied the the quality and

quantity of the mitochondria in our

cells is highly malleable and this this

picture I just painted of losing 75% of

your mitochondrial capacity as you get

older is actually just the average of

What normally and typically happens uh

to most people okay and what this isn't

is a claim that quote unquote aging does

this to our mitochondria in a sort of

biologically predetermined way actually

it's the opposite and here's here's the

good news because you're probably

feeling really um like this is really

bad news learning that your mitochondria

uh mitochondria and mitochondrial

capacity declines so much with aging um

if that's got you feeling down here's

the good news the good news is when we

look at 70y olds who are lifelong

exercisers they have the same

mitochondrial capacity as young people

do so um this is not a functioning of a

function of Aging per se this is

function of our lifestyle and what

what's really going on here um in terms

of mitochondrial size mitochondrial

quantity and quantity is that

um this is fundamentally a product of

the way we live and specifically the

degree of demand we put on those systems

so in the same way I I could I could

tell you and this is much easier for

people to understand because it's much

more outwardly visible as soon as things

start going down to a smaller level

humans kind of make the mistake of

thinking oh you know this is driven by

mysterious biochemicals and I need to

take a drug for this um but when it's

big and outwardly visible we have a much

more time with the logic of

understanding things in the proper way

um muscles okay so um with muscles if

we challenge our muscles by lifting

heavy objects what do they do they they

interpret this as a stimulus to adapt to

this challenge by growing bigger and

stronger it's a survival stimulus so um

in basically they're going in order to

better handle the challenges of my

environment to better survive my

environment and to be less damaged by

the stress of my environment I need to

to adapt to these demands by growing

bigger and stronger muscles okay the the

the opposite is also true so um and this

is the down so

before I get there this is actually an

amazing thing if if you like if you look

at a chair or a bicycle or a car or any

sort of other object in our environment

any inanimate object they don't do this

okay they they don't have the capacity

to sense and adapt to the demands on

them the more demands you place on those

systems the faster they break down and

wear out and

degenerate humans and living organisms

more broadly but humans are especially

good at

this have a very have have an incredible

almost magical ability to sense demands

on the different systems of our body and

adapt to them not by degenerating but by

actually growing stronger yeah okay and

as magical and amazing as that is there

is a downside to it which is the

opposite also is true so what happens if

you immobilize muscles in a cast like if

you've ever broken a bone the atrophy

exactly eight weeks later you go you you

go to the doctor they saw off your cast

you look down at your armor leg and it's

half the size of the other one okay

because the body similarly sensed well

you know we only care about survival I

guess we don't need these muscles to

survive our environment they're not

being used so they're just an energetic

liability they're just consuming

resources protein and energy um without

serving any purpose that facilitates our

survival so let's get rid of them

um the same exact principles of growth

and atrophy also apply at the

microscopic level with our mitochondria

so when they are challenged regularly

they grow bigger and stronger they

engage in quality control processes

which is what you were alluding to

earlier um mitophagy and preventing

syence improving the the actual health

and function of those systems growing

larger and growing more four of them

from scratch a process called

mitochondrial biogenesis um so you you

can actually reverse that Trend that I

was talking about before you can

actually increase the number of

mitochondria as well um but if you don't

challenge your mitochondria regularly

and there are physical challenges that

challenge the mitochondria in different

systems of the body also think of it

this way cognitive challenges also

challenge the mitochondria of the brain

of the neural circuitry of the brain

um in unique ways and there can even be

broken down further from there of

specific types of cognitive challenge CH

challenge the mitochondria in different

systems of the brain in unique ways and

in response to those challenges those

mitochondria adapt by growing bigger and

stronger and becoming more

numerous the converse is also true if

you live a life lacking in those stimuli

in in those challenges to those systems

the mitochondria shrink and atrophy and

literally die off so you have fewer of

them and as a result of that you

massively decrease your physiological

resilience yeah and so you're talking

about this concept of hormetic stressors

like exercise for example you know if

you do an intense workout like I did

today like you probably did today if I

took my blood work right while I was

doing that or right afterwards it would

look like I had a heart attack massive

inflammatory numbers but you know 24

hours later my inflammatory numbers are

really low um you know I I show all

signs of great metabolic health and my

system has adapted to create more

endogenous antioxidant production better

oxidative stress buffering um you know

and just a better cellto cell

communication all the things that we

want for stress resilience and so but I

got the right dose that's the other

thing with the hormetic stressors

because there's certainly a limit where

you or I could easily overtrain I've

been there before um where we're doing

too much physical activity not resting

enough not creating enough you know not

getting enough of the stimuli like

melatonin and and um human growth

hormone production from good quality

sleep to where we're not able to adapt

and recover effectively and then we're

overstressing our system and so we got

to get the right dose of these stressors

like exercise like learning um you know

which anybody that's a little bit older

you know you you start trying to learn

something new you get pretty easily

frustrated so um it is a stressor on the

mind and so we got to get the right dose

of these hormetic stressors to

appropriately boost our resilience

factor and not too much but also not too

little yeah that's right so um you know

and there's there's a number of

principles to extend off of that but um

one thing to understand is that

basically too much like let me put it

this way we we have um kind of an

abnormal way of thinking about certain

stressors exercise

which we all think of as something that

promotes health is as you alluded to

with your blood test results there um a

stressor on the body it is a

physiological stressor that creates

metabolic waste that creates a big spike

of oxidative stress and even

inflammation in the system um it is

genuinely a stress on the system if you

overdo it as you said if you overwhelm

the system with that stress it will

create harm um the the the beautiful

thing though is that when we engage in

types of stress that are biologically

appropriate for us because they were

historically present in our ancestors

over um countless

Millennia what happens is we are

uniquely well well adapted to um

creating adaptations to that that

stressor that actually make us stronger

okay and this this is a distinction

between certain types of stressors that

are biologically appropriate we're

present for the human species for a very

long time that we are accustomed to um

versus certain types of stressors like

let's say lots of the modern toxins in

our environment um that we are not well

suited to adapt to that we that we have

enormous difficulty transforming from

something bad into something good

exercise is a stress that we can

transform from something that is in the

immediate term something bad or

potentially bad um into something over

time when we engage in it consistently

and when we engage in it at a dose as

you said that is appropriate for our

individual capacity which differs widely

between individuals um when we get that

dose right and we go just a bit outside

of our comfort zone just above slightly

above our current capacity we stimulate

transient harm basically but that

transient harm is transformed into

signals that make adaptations that in

the long term make us stronger healthier

and more resilient to Future exposures

to

stress yep absolutely and that's this

idea of hormetic stressors and there's a

whole number of different hormetic

stressors exercise being probably the

the number one example that people

understand um but learning like you

mentioned that's a hormetic stressor in

our society today you know we a lot of

people are doing things like cold

plunges right getting cold exposure

there could be um you know certain types

of breathing like breath holds or um you

know just box breathing and things like

that that are somewhat of a hormetic

stressor as well because we're being

exposed to more carbon dioxide you know

so many people are short shallow

breathers and I know you have a whole

training on that um and so we have

fasting is is definitely a hormetic

stressor right our ancestors would go

because they didn't have pantries right

so they would go at times long periods

of time without without consuming food

and their body was able to adapt to it

and so Tim restricted feeding or or

fasting strategy that that can be a

hormetic stressor that done in the right

dose can make us more metabolically fit

and stronger more M you know obviously

help increase the quality and quantity

of mitochondria so we have all these

types of hormetic stressors that can

help Prime us for

resilience so where do you recommend

people start with you know some of these

different areas that they can focus

on yeah there's there's so many um you

mentioned a good list there I would add

uh sauna exposure to that list um

another aspect is actually

phytochemicals very common extremely

widespread misunderstanding is that most

of the The Beneficial

phytochemicals uh are are actually not

antioxidants as most people think they

are they are actually Xeno hormetic

stress or Xeno hortin and they stimulate

a low-level oxidative stress that is

transformed um much like exercise and

many of the other stressors um

transformed into beneficial adaptations

so the spike in oxidative stress is

actually transformed into an adaptation

of of bolstering and building up what's

called the a the the antioxidant

response element which is our internal

cellular antioxidant system so the more

you engage in these types of stressors

um and really exercise breath holding

sauna exposure uh cold exposure um all

of these actually create oxidative

stress which is something that we all um

have been taught in most circles to

think of as a bad thing um but

actually interestingly enough well I'll

I'll tell um I'll tell an interesting

background Story related to that so uh

about 15 or 20 years ago or so um

researchers actually decided to study

this and they what they did was they

they recognized that exercise had a

whole bunch of health benefits

associated with it at that time of

course it was already known that

exercise was very good for us that

helped prevent uh disease and and and so

on um but it was thought at that time

that it's it's really unfortunate

that exercise also creates this big

spike of oxidative stress of free

radicals and that these free radicals

are damaging us so what if we take

antioxidant

supplements in tandem with exercise so

we get all the all the good stuff from

exercise all these benefits um reduce

risk of so many different diseases but

we eliminate the the downside of

exercise which is the these free

radicals this oxidative stress and these

researchers found something unexpect Ed

in these studies the more that they

supplemented with antioxidants vitamin A

C E things like that um before during or

after exercise the more that they

actually reduced and and canel out and

inhibited the metabolic benefits of

exercise because it turns out that part

of the adaptations to exercise um a big

part are actually adaptations to the

oxidative stress induced by exercise

that oxidative stress is actually a

signal to grow that internal oxid

antioxidation system redo system bigger

and stronger so if you take exogenous

antioxidants that reduce the oxidative

stress you reduce the signal on your

internal antioxidant system to grow

stronger and it turns out the oxidants

are actually a vital signaling molecule

for mitochondria themselves to detect

that there is a need for um increased

bioenergetic capacity

so all that stuff I was talking about

before about mitochondrial growth and

biogenesis actually depends on oxidative

stress signaling mitochondria have to

detect the presence of oxidative stress

which is essentially a deter a signal

that is that is um translated by them as

oh we're being overwhelmed this this

stressor is exceeding our bioenergetic

um uh production capacity so let's adapt

to it um to prevent damage oxidative

damage from future exposures to this

stress by growing bigger and stronger so

we can produce more energy so we can

handle this bioenergetic Demand on the

system in the future um so you know

those are all wonderful elements there's

uh um there's a number of psychological

aspects to this story as well um we

create psychological adaptations to

mentally difficult things in the same

way that we create um and

psychological as well as neurological

actually at the level of the brain in

very much the same way that we create um

physical adaptations and cellular and

biochemical adaptations to More Physical

stressors so cognitive Reserve capacity

being one of them but there's actually

many other dimensions of that as well um

so the actual resilience to stress is a

great uh is a neurally mediated in large

part um capacity like what is your

psycho emotional Reserve capacity what

is your level of resilience to handle

psychological and emotional stress um

courage willpower these are also

neurally mediated capacities that are

trainable in much the same way that um

muscular strength is trainable uh via

lifting

weights yeah this is really good stuff I

mean we can go for another hour on this

um but what I will say is that I know

the listeners got a ton of value out of

this this interview here and guys you

can check out Ari and all his podcasts

his programs his supplement formulas

energy blueprint.com I know he's got a

great program on breathing um also one

on gut health and he's got a great book

as well a couple great books eat for

energy how to beat fatigue supercharg

your mitochondria for all day energy

talks about the phytochemicals talks

about Tim restricted feeding all the

different a lot of the things that we

discussed here just recently and he also

has The Ultimate Guide to red light

therapy as well so some great books AR's

uh you know of my favorite people in

Natural Health space to talk to about

these ideas and I hope you guys got a

lot of value out of this Ari any last

words of inspiration here for our

audience I would say the the the big

principle that I want people to realize

that really is an extension of

everything that I've talked about here

is to realize how much of your

physiology is

malleable and plastic and is a function

of your

behaviors and you are not

as um so much of the the medical

narrative wants to to push on you sort

of just a victim of biochemicals

floating around in your body um the

biochemistry that you assess on blood

test is hugely a function of the

structure and function that you have

built that you have built in different

systems of your body and the biggest key

to health and disease prevention and

energy and Longevity is building those

capacities love that Ari always a

pleasure my friend be blessed

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