Systems thinking for product designers - Ryo Lu (Dive Club S4 | E7)

Summary

Dans cet échange passionnant, Rio, un designer expérimenté chez Notion, partage les coulisses de la création d'un produit et les défis de conception liés à l'intégration de l'IA. Il met en évidence l'importance de la recherche utilisateur, la collaboration entre les ingénieurs et les designers, et la création d'un système flexible qui répond aux besoins variés des utilisateurs. Rio souligne également la valeur de la communication et la nécessité de travailler ensemble pour façonner des solutions plus grandes et plus impactantes.

Takeaways

• 🌟 L'importance de travailler ensemble au-delà des titres officiels pour résoudre les problèmes et créer des solutions.
• 🔍 La conception d'AI comme un élément de construction de Notion, intégrant les besoins de l'utilisateur et la personnalisation.
• 📊 L'utilisation de la recherche utilisateur pour comprendre comment intégrer l'IA dans les produits et prioriser les différentes utilisations potentielles.
• 🤖 La prise en compte des différents types d'utilisateurs et de leurs besoins lorsqu'à l'introduction de nouvelles fonctionnalités.
• 🔗 La création de systèmes flexibles qui permettent à Notion de servir un large spectre d'utilisateurs tout en préservant la simplicité d'utilisation.
• 🛠️ L'importance de la conception de systèmes pour répondre aux besoins variés des utilisateurs et pour éviter la complexité excessive.
• 📝 La documentation et la collaboration asynchrones pour partager et affiner les idées dans des documents de conception.
• 💡 La combinaison de la collaboration en personne et asynchrone pour accélérer le processus de rétroaction et de mise en œuvre.
• 🔄 L'itération continue et l'ajout de commentaires pour améliorer les fonctionnalités en cours de développement.
• 👥 La prise en compte des besoins des utilisateurs débutants et expérimentés pour améliorer l'expérience d'onboarding de Notion.
• 🚀 La vision de Rio sur la conception de produits qui transcende les rôles traditionnels pour une collaboration plus étroite et une meilleure innovation.

Q & A

Quel est le rôle de Rio L dans l'élaboration du produit Notion ?

Rio L est l'un des premiers designers de Notion et a eu un impact significatif sur le produit depuis plus de quatre ans.

Comment Notion aborde-t-il l'intégration de l'IA dans son produit ?

Notion envisage l'IA comme un élément de construction, un système horizontal qui s'intègre avec les autres blocs de Notion, permettant aux utilisateurs de personnaliser les résultats.

Quelle est la place de la recherche utilisateur dans le projet d'IA de Notion ?

La recherche utilisateur est essentielle pour comprendre comment intégrer l'IA de manière utile et adaptée aux besoins des utilisateurs, quelles sont les principales doléances qu'elle pourrait résoudre et comment prioriser les différentes façons d'utiliser l'IA.

Comment Notion gère-t-il la diversité des utilisateurs dans le développement de ses fonctionnalités ?

Notion adopte une approche système qui permet à tous les utilisateurs, qu'il s'agisse de power users ou de personnes utilisant Notion de manière très basique, d'accéder à la puissance et à la flexibilité du produit tout en préservant la simplicité pour les utilisateurs moins expérimentés.

Quelles stratégies Notion utilise-t-il pour recueillir des retours pendant le développement d'un nouveau produit ou d'une fonctionnalité ?

Notion utilise des documents asynchrones, des prototypes en direct, des retours internes et externes, et des boucle de rétroaction pour recueillir un large éventail d'opinions et d'améliorations avant de mettre en production un nouveau produit ou une fonctionnalité.

Comment Notion gère-t-il la transition de conception à développement ?

Les designers de Notion ont souvent des compétences en codage, ce qui favorise une expérience fluide et une collaboration étroite avec les ingénieurs. Les designers et les ingénieurs travaillent ensemble pour s'assurer que les pixels sur l'écran sont cohérents et reflètent les concepts de conception.

Quelles sont les compétences que Rio L souhaite développer en tant que designer en 2024 ?

Rio L souligne l'importance de la communication pour faire avancer le travail d'une équipe et motiver les gens. Il souhaite améliorer son aptitude à clarifier ses idées et à les présenter de manière concise et accessible à différents niveaux de détail et en différentes langues.

Quel est le conseil de Rio L pour les designers qui souhaitent rejoindre l'équipe de Notion ?

Rio L recommande aux designers de montrer des travaux concrets et de préparer des études de cas détaillées. Il apprécie également quand les candidats traitent leur site web comme un produit en lui-même, avec attention porté à tous les détails, y compris la typographie et la présentation globale.

Comment Notion aborde-t-il l'expérience utilisateur pour les nouveaux utilisateurs ?

Notion cherche à proposer une expérience d'onboarding adaptée aux besoins de chaque utilisateur, en essayant de poser le moins de questions possibles pour offrir un ensemble d'outils pertinents. L'objectif est de rendre les outils auto-évidents et familiers, tout en offrant la possibilité de personnalisation sans avoir à comprendre les concepts de base profondément.

Quelle est la philosophie de travail chez Notion qui区别 les designers de Notion d'autres entreprises ?

Les designers de Notion travaillent sans se limiter aux titres officiels et sans barrières entre les rôles. Ils collaborent étroitement avec les ingénieurs et d'autres parties prenantes pour résoudre les problèmes, concevoir des systèmes et trouver des solutions ensemble, sans se focaliser sur les responsabilités spécifiques de leur rôle.

Comment Notion gère-t-il l'évolution et la complexité de son produit en grandissant ?

Notion gère la complexité en construisant des systèmes flexibles et généralisables qui permettent à l'ensemble des utilisateurs de comprendre et d'utiliser le produit. Ils cherchent également à améliorer continuellement leur processus d'onboarding pour que les nouveaux utilisateurs trouvent l'ensemble d'outils qu'ils ont besoin sans avoir à tout apprendre d'emblée.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Introduction to Design Philosophy at Notion

The paragraph introduces Rio, a key designer at Notion, and delves into the company's design philosophy. Rio emphasizes the importance of摒弃传统角色界限, focusing on collaborative problem-solving and system thinking. The conversation highlights the unique approach to design at Notion, where titles and hierarchies are less important than the collective effort to solve problems and create solutions. The discussion also touches on the design process for Notion's AI launch, emphasizing user research and the challenge of integrating AI into a product in a way that is both familiar and useful to users.

05:01

🤖 Integrating AI in Notion's Design

This section discusses the role of user research in the development of Notion's AI features. Rio explains that AI is a new frontier that challenges existing product development assumptions. User research is crucial in understanding how to best integrate AI, pricing, and creating feedback loops. The conversation explores different tactics for user research, such as live calls, feature flagging, and surveys, and how these methods were applied to gather insights for Notion's AI implementation. Rio also talks about the nuances of labeling AI output and the importance of transparency and trust in AI technology.

10:02

🎨 Balancing Power Users and Novices

The paragraph focuses on the challenge of designing for a wide spectrum of users, from power users to those who use Notion in a basic way. Rio discusses the approach of building systems and the importance of creating a flexible and understandable system that caters to different user needs. The goal is to create a product that feels as good as a single-purpose tool while maintaining the power and flexibility of a more general-purpose tool. The conversation also touches on the evolution of Notion's design culture and the importance of continuous building and prototyping in the face of a rapidly changing technology landscape.

15:03

🖋️ Design Documentation and Collaboration

In this part, Rio talks about the process of documenting and collaborating on design ideas within Notion. The team uses Notion itself to write down their thoughts and reasoning, creating a transparent and accessible document for feedback. The documents include high-level system designs, solution options, and visual aids. The process involves multiple iterations and loops to gather feedback from various stakeholders, including designers, PMs, and engineers. The goal is to ensure clarity, simplicity, and flexibility in the final product.

20:04

🔄 Feedback Loops and Iteration

Rio discusses the importance of feedback loops in the design process, especially for isolated areas of the product. The team collects feedback through various channels, builds prototypes, and iterates based on user feedback. The process involves internal testing within Notion, external feedback from ambassadors, and enterprise users. The aim is to refine the product until it's ready for launch. Rio also talks about the challenges of asynchronous feedback and the importance of in-person collaboration for refining details and making decisions.

25:06

🛠️ Design and Engineering Collaboration

This section focuses on the collaboration between designers and engineers at Notion. Rio mentions that many Notion designers also code, leading to a fluid and integrated design process. The challenge is ensuring consistency across the product, which involves checking and polishing every detail. As the team grows, there's a need for better tooling and systems to maintain efficiency and adaptability. Rio talks about the development of a component system to map Figma designs to code and the importance of shared understanding and language between designers and engineers.

30:07

🎯 Notion's Design Culture and Future Growth

Rio reflects on Notion's unique design culture and the importance of breaking away from traditional roles. The team works together without strict boundaries, focusing on problems, systems, and solutions. Rio shares his personal growth in communication skills and the importance of helping teams work better together. He also discusses the evolution of Notion's onboarding experience, aiming to present concepts in a way that is familiar and easy for new users, while still offering power and flexibility for more advanced users.

🌐 Portfolio Insights for Aspiring Designers

In the final part, Rio shares what he looks for in a designer's portfolio. He appreciates seeing real work and case studies that demonstrate a deep understanding of the product development process. Attention to detail, website presentation, and typography are important. Rio values a portfolio that treats the website as a product itself, showcasing the designer's ability to communicate and present their work effectively.

Keywords

💡Design Process

Le processus de conception est la manière dont les designers abordent la création de produits, en commençant par la compréhension des problèmes et des besoins des utilisateurs, pour aboutir à des solutions innovantes. Dans le script, il est question de la manière dont les designers de Notion travaillent ensemble pour concevoir des fonctionnalités, en particulier en ce qui concerne l'intégration de l'IA dans le produit.

💡Collaboration

La collaboration fait référence à la manière dont les individus travaillent ensemble, partagent des idées et des connaissances, et contribuent collectivement à la réalisation d'un projet. Dans le contexte du script, la collaboration est soulignée comme un élément clé du processus de conception à Notion, où les designers et les ingénieurs travaillent ensemble pour résoudre les problèmes et créer de nouvelles fonctionnalités.

💡AI Integration

L'intégration de l'IA (Intelligence Artificielle) dans un produit signifie l'incorporation de technologies qui permettent au produit de simuler l'intelligence humaine pour résoudre des problèmes spécifiques. Dans le script, l'IA est présentée comme un élément clé de la conception de Notion, servant de couche intermédiaire pour améliorer l'expérience utilisateur et offrir de nouvelles fonctionnalités.

💡User Research

La recherche utilisateur est le processus d'étude et de compréhension des besoins, des comportements et des motivations des utilisateurs finaux d'un produit. Cette pratique est essentielle pour concevoir des produits qui répondent aux besoins réels des utilisateurs. Dans le script, la recherche utilisateur est utilisée pour comprendre comment intégrer l'IA de manière utile et pertinente pour les utilisateurs de Notion.

💡Design Culture

La culture de conception fait référence à l'environnement de travail et aux valeurs partagées qui guident la manière dont les designers abordent la création de produits. Dans le script, la culture de conception à Notion est décrite comme spéciale et distincte, mettant l'accent sur la collaboration, la flexibilité et l'innovation.

💡Building Blocks

Les éléments de construction sont des composants de base qui servent de fondement pour la création de structures plus complexes. Dans le contexte de Notion, les éléments de construction sont des concepts fondamentaux qui permettent aux utilisateurs de construire et de personnaliser leurs propres outils et workflows.

💡Feedback Loops

Les boucles de rétroaction sont des mécanismes permettant aux équipes de collecter et d'analyser les commentaires des utilisateurs, afin d'améliorer continuellement les produits. Elles jouent un rôle crucial dans la conception et le développement de produits qui répondent aux besoins et aux attentes des utilisateurs.

💡Prototyping

Le prototypage est le processus de création d'un modèle fonctionnel ou de simulation d'un produit pour tester et valider des idées et des concepts avant la mise en production. Cela permet aux concepteurs de comprendre comment une fonctionnalité ou un produit fonctionnerait réellement et de faire des ajustements avant que le produit ne soit finalisé.

💡Product Development

Le développement de produit est le processus par lequel une idée est transformée en un produit final, prêt à être commercialisé et utilisé par les clients. Cela inclut la conception, le développement, les tests et la mise en production d'une fonctionnalité ou d'un produit.

💡Design Systems

Les systèmes de conception sont des ensembles de principes, de composants et de processus qui guident la création d'un produit, assurant la cohérence et l'efficacité dans la conception. Ils permettent aux équipes de travailler de manière plus organisée et productive, en réduisant les erreurs et en favorisant la réutilisation des éléments de conception.

💡User Experience

L'expérience utilisateur (UX) est l'ensemble des interactions, émotions et perceptions qu'un utilisateur a lorsqu'il utilise un produit. Un bon design UX vise à rendre l'utilisation d'un produit facile, agréable et efficace, en répondant aux besoins et aux attentes des utilisateurs.

Highlights

The importance of discarding traditional titles and working collaboratively on projects, focusing on problems, systems, and solutions.

The unique design process at Notion, which involves thinking about AI as a building block and a horizontal system.

The role of user research in the AI project at Notion, and how it differs from typical approaches due to the introduction of a new primitive layer.

The challenge of designing for a wide spectrum of users, from power users to those using Notion as a basic tool.

The approach to designing AI in a way that fits with the rest of Notion's building blocks and is customizable to user needs.

The significance of feedback loops in product development and the various tactics used for research, such as live calls, feature flagging, and surveys.

The nuanced approach to labeling AI output and managing user expectations regarding AI's capabilities and potential mistakes.

The strategy of building systems that can cater to different user needs without compromising on simplicity and flexibility.

The evolution of Notion's design culture and the shift from a small, tight-knit team to a larger group with varying skill levels.

The emphasis on craftsmanship, playfulness, and mass appeal in design, aiming to create software that is both high-quality and accessible.

The challenge of onboarding new users to Notion, given its complexity and the need for a tailored approach that doesn't overwhelm.

The idea of designing features that are self-evident and familiar, making the tool intuitive and easy to use without requiring extensive configuration.

The fluid collaboration between designers and engineers at Notion, where roles are less defined and the focus is on collective problem-solving.

The importance of communication skills for designers, especially in larger organizations where clarity and motivation are crucial.

The approach to portfolio presentation that stands out to Rio, emphasizing real work, case studies, and treating the website as a product.

The value of designers being able to work together across different teams and roles, helping to improve overall collaboration and productivity.

Transcripts

what I find that worked the best is you

kind of throw away all these titles and

stuff and you just work on the thing

together you might own certain piece of

it but they don't think in R boundaries

they think about the problems the

systems the solutions welcome to Dive

Club my name is red and this is where we

go deep with the best designers so that

you can learn from their journey and

apply it to your own career today I'm

talking with Rio L who was one of the

very first design at notion and has had

a massive impact on the product over the

last four plus years this conversation

is an inside look at the design process

at notion we talk about how they think

about products how they collaborate with

engineers and all of the tiny details

that make the design culture at notion

so special so to start this conversation

I asked Rio to give us a behindth scenes

to learn more about what it was like

leading the design of their recent AI

launch what actually really kicked this

off was Simon Ian and a bunch of people

were just kind of prototyping AI stuff

it kind of kind of clicked like this

thing can help us solve so many

different problems that our users

already have and then you were thinking

about how do we package up all of these

Technologies and Concepts in a way

that's familiar to people that's useful

that also fits with the rest of Notions

building blocks how we think about AI is

it's almost like we're designing like AI

almost like a building block of notion

but also is like a horizontal system

premi of the needs to know you know how

to interact with all the things we have

but also like any other notion primitive

we allow you to customize the out

of it can you talk a little bit about

the role of user research in this

project did it differ from the way that

you typically approach projects in

notion given the fact that it isn't just

like this new isolated feature but you

are introducing producing this primitive

layer that touches kind of everything in

the product yeah user research for AI is

especially interesting because it's a

new world almost that we're entering in

it breaks a lot of assumptions with

existing ways of thinking about building

products and then people don't really

know what's the best way to package up

AI into their products I think you know

most people start with I don't know slap

on a chat bot next to your thing and

then it it doesn't really still interact

with the stuff that you have already it

doesn't really fit with the concepts you

have it doesn't really fit with you know

all the problems your users already have

and then user research almost can give

us more clarity in a lot of like problem

say like what is useful valuable what's

important how do we prioritize different

ways we can utilize AI to help people

what are the biggest pain points people

really need help with that AI can help

solve user research help with a lot of

more like tactical problems like how do

we price this thing it can also help you

you know build more of these feedback

loops I think the more of these Loops

you have the better it also doesn't have

to be you know pure interview based user

research or just pling surveys you can

build a lot of like feedback Mech

mechanisms in your product itself and

then they all kind of act as input if

you think about the different tactics

that you might use for research like

maybe you're doing live calls or feature

flagging or surveys or something like

that which tactics were the most

impactful for this project and maybe

there's even some like specific

learnings or takeaways that influence

the way that you thought about the

rollout strategy for AI one example

would be I think there is a lot of

nuance around how much you want to kind

kind of say label what is the AI output

or how much human approvals is needed or

how do you want to show people that say

AI might make mistakes sometimes for

different kinds of things people do in

Ocean or in general when they work

there's like different levels of

Acceptance in terms of how much Freedom

you want to give the AI how much

disclosure do you want to give to people

that something is generated by Ai and

then it's almost like for every single

segment of users there's different

answers so we ran a lot of like multiple

surveys to kind of collect all of these

different patterns of people's usage and

then you can kind of design different

solutions for those people in different

points in the Spectrum some people are

they're more early

adopter more accepting technology type

of type of people but then there are

also people who are really scared of AI

they don't really know what it is why

would they even want to buy this what's

the point you kind of want to figure out

what these different people need and

then you design a mechanism to build

more trust give people more transparency

in what thei does make people feel like

they know what's happening and they're

not really scared or threatened by this

technology because the thing is so new

and everything is kind of evolving

there's new things popping out every

time it's really important to keep

building and prototyping and trying

things because it's so new I don't think

we need really strong conviction from

this group of people that okay great

they like it and then we ship it it's

more like we want to kind of discover

where people land in the Spectrum what

do they need different kinds of people

different kinds of level of acceptance

and then we designed the system that

covers most of of those my assumption is

like you're designing for such a wide

spectrum of like you know power users on

one hand all the way to people who are

basically just using notion as like a

glorified Word document and AI just

really increases the ceiling for those

power users in a way that probably

significantly broadened the spectrum of

personas that you are designing for how

do you even approach something like that

as a designer thinking about these

different types of users and the

different capabilities that they would

be looking for while also you know like

preserving that Simplicity for the

people who maybe are just kind of using

notion in a very rudimentary way almost

we started mostly from the systems side

it's like we build the building blocks

bit by bit in a way that everything is

you know fits together pretty well

there's very few number of Concepts but

then it almost does a lot of things it's

almost like there's two ways of

Designing one way is you design the

system ideally the system has the fewest

parts that does the most things you want

the other way is you design more like

typical SAS companies or where it's like

they have this group of users the set of

problems you design specific solutions

for those problems it's like the default

mode for a lot of designers when they

work on problems is they want to kind of

okay let's focus on this one problem and

then make a really really good solutions

for for that and then we add all the

delight and all the Crazy Craft on top

of it they focus on this thing they come

up with like a ideal sing Single model

that does everything within that bubble

but I do think for a more general

purpose tool like notion one single

model doesn't really fit with everyone

it's almost like the only way to do it

is with a generalizable system that

ideally most people can understand and

and then we need to kind of make every

level of that simple both like on the

conceptual level and all the things that

tie things around like how you navigate

how you file things how you create

things how you search for things we want

the thing to feel as good as the single

purpose tool like all the craft all the

speed all the Del light whatever you

call it can still exist but also the

power the flexibility the building

blocks can also exist and we need to

kind of figure out a way to fit

everything together when notion started

it was mostly system thinking building

the blocks but then when people kind of

click and figure out how to use these

building blocks to do the things they

want they fall in love with the tool

because they it gives them so much power

and then they can create the things they

want without you know asking the support

team please build this feature for me

when you're building a product that

serves so many different groups of users

so many different use cases you can't

think in one way or the other way you

need to come up with good systems to tie

up all this different people's needs

people's mental models of how their

tools work different variations of doing

say project management but then it's

like still kind of built with the same

ideas Primitives building blocks you

can't build single purpose features in

notion and try to slap it on top of it

cuz it will make the systems more comp

Lex how we're thinking about how to

solve these problems is we build systems

to kind of wrap these different use

cases up so that you get the things you

want without understanding how the

blocks works we want to kind of give

people what they want in the way that

feels the most familiar and easy but

still having everything built with the

building blocks that are flexible and

then AI can also be this middle layer

because once we we say teach AI how to

think about the notion structures and

the stuff you have it can help you

figure out how to set and set them up

better what are the different features

you might need so you don't have to

really think about it I want to talk a

little bit more about how you defined

that middle layer of AI in design and I

ideally even like kind of put listeners

in the room with you let like kind of

let us be like a fly on the all because

my assumption is that you know at some

point you're going off you're exploring

things and then you're giving you know

some kind of crit environment or or a

presentation or sharing some of your

thoughts and maybe it's like that first

or second big milestone in the AI

project can you tell us that story and

maybe even specifically talk about what

are you bringing to the table for that

meeting like what are you actually

showing as a designer what are you

hoping to achieve in that meeting and

all ultimately what are some of the

strategies that you're using to drive

alignment and provide more clarity for

what that middle layer can actually

become I feel like for certain kinds of

problems like an in-person crit of like

30 minutes just won't do it when things

get into like this systems conceptual

land almost because it touches so many

different things you need to kind of put

all your thoughts down in a really clear

way for people and then how we usually

do it is we we we just write docs in

notion and then usually those docks kind

of show people how you reason about the

problems what is maybe like the high

level system you trying to design how do

different concepts connect with each

other maybe you list out different

options for the solutions and then you

kind of think about each of the options

pros and cons try to compare them you

kind of supplement that thinking with

pictures there could be like figma

artboards link prev reviews in notion it

could be random drawings that you you've

done in the Whiteboard and then you need

to get a lot of people in there not just

designers maybe your PM Partners but

also like maybe Engineers people are

thinking about how to architect the

technical designs and then people come

in and people leave comments and people

start conversations and discussions on

specifics of that Doc and then we just

try to kind of mix all these things back

in do more Loops get more feedback from

more people do more loops and then try

to kind of share all these ideas out in

a way that is not just the designers

talking about tiny little visual details

but how do we Wrangle notion up so that

things get clearer and simpler but also

more flexible in some sense I I've

worked in similar environments where a

lot of things are happening in a notion

document and I'm kind of trying to break

down this project into like different

initiatives with maybe subd directions

within that initiative and like very

clear using like the call out Block it's

one of my favorite ones for these types

of of

documents I think a a struggle that I've

encountered a lot of times with doing

things entirely async is the pace and

getting people to actually weigh in on

the things that matter and if I'm doing

a loop my God sometimes those Loops take

too long and like then you have some

upper level person that's swoops in like

4 days later after you think you already

have alignment so can you talk a little

bit about how you Steed this async

feedback process as a designer and

ensure that you're getting the answers

you need and preserving the inertia of

the project I I also think it's like

just doing async is not enough but it is

good to kind of capture your ideas down

and all people's thoughts in a more open

environment where anyone can come in and

JW their ideas down get feedback but

when when you want to say make more

decisions where you want to start

refining different parts of the problems

you want to get into more details that's

when we want to do more of in-person

type collaboration people jamming is

what what we call it like maybe it's

like one designer with another designer

maybe it's like a group of say four to

five people whiteboarding working on the

same problem to get together versus

giving specific feedback in know more

like oh this person owns this thing and

makes all the decisions it's more like

everyone shares the same problem and

space everyone tries to throw out

everything out we essentially need to

look at stuff holistically and then try

to figure out which Hills to climb or

which set of steps to do on the little

pieces that you need to start doing

maybe each of them are owned by

different groups of people and different

teams it's more like a how do we plan

how do we sequence how do we get each of

the teams to do the right things problem

you talked about like the little pieces

can you talk about how you like

stewarded the feedback process for that

more like isolated area of the product

are you still doing it more like async

docs are you sharing more prototypes

like how do you get the feedback that

you need once you realize okay I'm

working on this specific set of features

or this specific area of the product if

we zoom into something that we're

actively building that will be shipped

soon or at some point that is really

clear we do try to collect feedback from

as many channels and sources as possible

we try to build and prototype life as

much as possible so you can think of

like say when we're doing earlier faces

of specking in stuff maybe it's more

about all those async Fe back on docks

or crits or you know little reviews here

and there once things get a little more

more momentum once Engineers start

prototyping stuff we try to release them

in our Dev notion workspace which is

like the the internal thing we use so

that people can play with it maybe it

starts with the the team that builds

that feature and then it expands to

everyone within notion itself so people

can get feedback back to the team that

built it and then once we feel good

enough internally we try to give more

access to people outside of notion we

have like a group of ambassadors and

they know every bit of it they can help

us cover feedback around say the more

power user use cases but then there are

also like we cover so many different

group of users in big companies

Enterprise they have more admin needs

Maybe as like small companies or

startups maybe as individuals and

students and then we want to get their

perspectiv on things too and then we get

all of these feedback we triage them we

do loops of these until we feel like

it's good enough and it's really close

to ship and then we just polish

everything up can you talk about I hate

using the word handoff but like this

transfer of knowledge between design and

Engineering within those Loops because

what you're getting feedback on does

exist in code so how much are you

prioritizing par between what's in figma

and what's ultimately in code and like

what do those deliverables within that

Loops cycle look like from your end for

the longest time like most of the notion

designers code too so we actually don't

really have this distinction it's

usually like people who are working on

this thing and then they're just

thinking and making things together and

iterating on it and then it's more like

a pretty fluid experience at at some

point we didn't even have PMS like the

engineers sometimes lead the project and

do some planning designers helped

filling details in as the team grew

bigger a lot of these things don't

really scale as much and also it's like

people start to have different levels of

skill sets and there's more variability

there are people who are on boarding

joining in trying to help but then maybe

they don't really know all the rules of

like how the system works then we

started building like a vicma side

component system like one of our

designers Ricky he's been starting doing

this like on the side and then the

engineers have the same problems because

they might not know which components to

use which text property text icon color

sizing and stuff to use so we're trying

to work on making sure that the figma

system maps to the code and everything

ideally converges at one point but for

the meantime it's all about ey checking

on everything that we ship and then

trying to polish it up so that things

feel consistent cuz ultimately

everything that we do ends up shipping

as pixels on the screen and I think it's

like the first order is you make sure

that pixels on the screen Works in a

cohesive way all the concepts you have

work in a cohesive way and then it's

about how we structure and reason about

all the components all the different

tokens are your different

variables in your designs they match and

have better tooling for designers and

Engineers to make things faster in a

more efficient way having more

flexibility when things are changing so

much helps and makes you more adaptive

to change and then it makes evolving the

system a little easier I want to talk a

little bit more about that because you

have this line that you use on your job

descriptions which I think is so cool

you talk about making software with the

craftsmanship of German cameras the

playfulness of Japanese toys and Mass

Appeal of Coca-Cola which is like a heck

of a mandate for design and you're in

this really interesting season of notion

where it's no longer this like small

really tight-knit Senior Team of

designers where you only have like three

people and now you're scaling up to like

10 different designers and maybe there's

more variance in skill level even but

like I'm really curious to to hear more

about how you think about the different

systems that you need to put in place in

order to empower the design team to

reach this level of craft and there's

kind of soft skills in there and there's

also kind of hard skills maybe we could

even start with the figma side like

actually how much of a system do you

build as a team like where do you think

about that line between okay there are

real efficiencies to gain here but we

don't want to go too far to like over

architect things and invest too much in

the systems level you really just want

to ship so how do you think about that

sweet spot for notion there are certain

things that pretty much you know they

don't really change but they touches so

many different parts of the tool say

like all the base components all the

rules that are foundational that needs

to be clarified to both designers and

Engineers that needs to be systematized

so that things are cohesive say like you

don't have a blue button that looks

different that two shades of blues but

then for notion I think a lot of things

that figma Design Systems can't really

cover there's a lot of things around how

we want to design features or Reason

about problems that are really not

captured by the components themselves or

the UI itself we need to both be crafts

you know humans on the say visual ux UI

side

but also when we Design Concepts how

they generalize how much flexibility and

power and possibilities does this thing

open while keeping the system itself

still understandable to people you've

mentioned this word power a couple times

and I do want to talk a little bit more

about that because I started using

notion like six seven years ago when it

was much simpler and you've added

so much to this product where it can do

kind of everything like literally

anything I want to build I can build it

in notion and for me as someone who's

been with the product for such a long

time I've learned each of these new

additions in isolation where it's kind

of preserved the Simplicity because I'm

not really ever having to experience the

whole thing for the first time so now

that there is this level of

functionality and it's such a robust

product can you talk a little bit about

how your thinking in terms of like the

new user experience for notion has

evolved over the last few years if you

look at notion the simplest state of

notion is just a blank page and you can

write whatever in there but there is a

lot of pretty complex foreign concepts

for most people especially people who

don't build software like databases that

are pretty hard to get at first but then

if you look at all the apps that people

use every day they're all powered by

databases they all have similar views

say like you have tables you have lists

you have boards but all of these things

are pre-built for people for different

purposes for different problems people

have different workflows they have so

we're trying to fix is almost like there

is no one size fit all on boarding for

notion because every single person every

single team wants different things all

the tools the configurations of them

might be very different but maybe

they're all conceptually similar how do

you have a system that Maps what the

user needs with the things the tools

that they want we want to figure out the

fewest questions that we can ask to give

you the closest set of tools that you

need when you start and then it's almost

like ideally when you use those tools

they are self-evident they're familiar

they maybe behave even half similar

Concepts that you're used to in other

tools when you navigate around it feels

pretty natural you can go from a project

to a task to a subtask really nicely

everything's presented in a way that's

familiar you don't have to configure

anything and then you kind of go down to

the middle layer if you do want to

customize it and the idea is we don't

want to push you towards the lowlevel

concepts too much too quickly too early

maybe there are a bunch of things that

you can tweak without touching harder

Concepts and then it's almost like for

people who are really interested in

building more tools with more power I

think they should still get the full set

of powers they could get or even with

more flexibility not everyone have to

become a tool maker in the sense it's

like most people don't really care most

people just want something that works

especially for people who are in a

company using notion a lot of people are

just say creating doct during them

getting some feedback looking at stuff

without thinking about how things are

structured so how we're thinking about

onboarding is almost like we need to

rethink how our concepts are

presented we need to tie it up better

with what we know about the user we need

to make it so that you get things that

are useful out of the box we want to

make it so that if you want to tweak it

a little bit but it gets really easy

without you being the designer of the

tool or un the need to understand how

databases work for example so it's

really about like how do we close the

gap between what people tell us and what

people get and ideally is like when

people are using that thing that they

get it's pretty easy I want to talk a

little bit about you personally but

maybe first one more question about

notion itself because I I think a lot of

people do recognize the fact that notion

has a special design culture and at

least for myself I'm very interested in

in getting a little bit of like an

inside look at and actually how you

operate so I'm going to toss a

hypothetical question your way let's say

that tomorrow you are forced to join a

new startup what is n aspect of how

design operates at notion that you would

for sure want to make sure that you

bring with you to that new company I

think designers at no do probably more

than what typical designers do at other

companies I started personally building

stuff and designing myself I did not

know the boundaries as much and then I

started to build my own startups with

say like two people four people 10

people and then I went to like more

established tech companies with say

hundreds of people or thousands of

people I've seen like different kinds of

configurations of all this you know

engineer product designer type of thing

sometimes the engineers gets more

Upstream designer goes Downstream

sometimes it's flipped sometimes it's

like maybe the PM is upstream and then

they kind of delegate to the designers

and the engineers more you know what I

find that work the best is you kind of

throw away all these titles and stuff

and you just work on the thing together

and then you cover each other you know

with anything you might have a spike or

you might own certain piece of it but

but then people blend their areas of

ownership their skills their thinking

they don't think in roll boundaries they

think about the problems the systems the

solutions anyone can propose any

idea that will ultimately get mixed back

into something better the designers can

code and polish things up the engineers

can think of the system designs that

eventually will transpire through in the

U the product people can think less

about specking out MV MVPs but think a

little broader about how do we turn this

into a bigger thing that's more

impactful across every user every use

case people should just work together

and make stuff doesn't really care what

your role or boundaries put all the

ideas together find the best idea follow

that through push that further in every

aspect what about you personally like

when you reflect on your own own skill

set in all of the ways that this culture

has grown you looking

ahead what is a skill set or area of

growth that you hope to reach as a

designer in 2024 I think communication

is like super important I started doing

design without communicating at all cuz

it's like you build the stuff and it's

out and it's done but then when you

start working in a bigger organization

with more people it is really important

to be really clear with your ideas where

you want to take people to you want to

have a way to articulate it in a really

crisp way at different levels of detail

in different languages when you talk to

different people so that people feel

motivated they feel they want to do this

they get more clarity in their thinking

it's like they can unblock themselves

and start moving and then kind of

helping people tie things back to

together I think is super important

especially for notion cuz every concept

of notion ties back together and then

this communication is not just about how

you talk or how you present yourself in

credit how you write dogs it's like

everything how do you interact with

different teams different roles of

people how do you help group of people

work better together that kind of stuff

it's very clear just listening to you

that the way that design works at notion

is it's special like you have something

very interesting there and I love this

idea of really kind of breaking outside

of the traditional roles and

responsibilities boxes in terms of what

we think of as joining a company as a

product designer and the types of things

that you'd be doing and working on and

the ways that you'll be moving the

needle for anyone that who's listening

who's like interested in this and maybe

is either in like the the San Francisco

or New York areas or somewhere like that

notion is hiring right now there are

multiple roles that are open on the

careers's page so before I I let you go

Rio I have one question for you what is

something that designers can do on their

portfolio that would really stand out

and get you excited about having them

take the next step in your hiring

process what I like seeing is like is

work like real work pictures ideally

something that like you know I can play

with that's live then take really long

on writing case studies of standard

product development process I care a lot

about all the details how you present

things how you build your website all

the typography yeah I like that it's

like treating the website almost as a

product in itself rather than just a

folder for case studies I love it well

Rio this has been amazing thank you so

much for taking the time and giving us

like a little lens into what it's like

actually designing at notion and and the

types of things that you're thinking

about this has been a lot of fun I know

there's a ton of gold nuggets for people

in there that are listening so thank you

again thank

you