Broke to Saving $1 Million in 5 Years: Achieving Financial Freedom with Grant Sabatier

Summary

In this insightful conversation, Grant Sabatier shares his personal finance journey from having no clear direction in his early 20s to achieving financial independence. He discusses the importance of viewing money as a tool for freedom, the psychological aspects of wealth, and strategies for managing finances. Grant emphasizes the value of simplicity in financial planning, the impact of climate change on investments, and the need for adaptability in an uncertain future. He also shares his experiences with money mindset shifts as his net worth grew and offers advice on building resilience and making the most of the current opportunities.

Takeaways

• 🌟 Money mindset is crucial, and scarcity or abundance mentality can significantly impact one's financial journey.
• 💡 Personal finance is often misunderstood, with many outdated or scammy pieces of advice available.
• 📚 Financial education, through books and resources, can be life-changing and shift one's perspective on money.
• 🚀 Entrepreneurship and side hustles can lead to financial success and independence.
• 🧠 The psychological aspect of money is powerful; how one views and manages finances can change drastically with experience.
• 🏠 Real estate and index funds are considered solid long-term investment strategies.
• 🔄 Money is a tool that, when managed well, can provide freedom and reduce stress.
• 🌍 Climate change poses a significant risk to investments, and adaptability is key in preparing for its financial impact.
• 🤔 Over-optimization in finances can lead to money addiction; it's important to balance knowledge with action.
• 💼 Running a business allows for direct control over investments and can lead to significant financial growth.
• 🔮 Future uncertainty calls for resilience and adaptability in both personal and business finances.

Q & A

What was Grant's initial perspective on money and how did it change over time?

Initially, Grant viewed money as a source of stress and something to run away from, as it was a constant topic of discussion and struggle in his family. However, after becoming broke and having no other options, he started to explore the concept of money deeply and realized it could be a tool for freedom and happiness. This shift in perspective led him to build a successful career in digital marketing and eventually achieve financial independence.

How did Grant's parents' financial struggles influence his money mindset?

Grant's parents' financial struggles instilled a sense of scarcity and stress around money in him. He grew up with the belief that there was never enough money and that life wasn't fair. However, he was able to overcome this mindset by educating himself about money management and personal finance, leading to a more abundant and empowered relationship with money.

What book had a significant impact on Grant's life and financial philosophy?

The book 'Your Money or Your Life' by Vicki Robins and Joe Dominguez had a profound impact on Grant. It introduced him to the concept of trading life energy for money and the importance of valuing time over money, which became his life philosophy.

How did Grant manage to save $1.25 million in 5 years, 3 months, and 6 days?

Grant achieved this by working in digital marketing during its infancy, saving 80% of his $52,000 salary, starting a side hustle, and eventually launching two different companies. His disciplined approach to saving and reinvesting his income allowed him to accumulate significant wealth in a relatively short period.

What is the 'Perennial Kid' fire movement story that Grant mentioned?

The 'Perennial Kid' fire movement story refers to Grant's journey of saving over 80% of his income, living extremely frugally, and eventually saving $1.25 million in about five years. This story is an example of the 'financial independence, retire early' (FIRE) movement, where individuals prioritize saving and investing to achieve financial independence at a young age.

How does Grant currently manage his money in terms of short-term and long-term investments?

Grant keeps two years of living expenses in a high-yield savings account, which he uses to cover his monthly expenses. For his long-term investments, he primarily invests in index funds, owning a significant portion of his net worth in them. He also has a small percentage of his investments in real estate and his business. Currently, he is focusing on reinvesting back into his business rather than adding more to his index fund holdings.

What are Grant's thoughts on the impact of climate change on investments?

Grant believes that climate change is the biggest risk to every individual's investment portfolio. He suggests that the impact of climate change will be significant and could affect the entire supply chain and infrastructure, potentially leading to shifts in what are considered sound investments. He emphasizes the importance of building adaptability and resilience into one's life and investments in light of these changes.

How does Grant view the role of money in his life now compared to when he was younger?

Now, Grant views money as a reflection of who he is and as a powerful tool that, when used wisely, can bring joy and freedom. He manages his finances with a focus on intuition and ensuring that his spending aligns with his values. Unlike when he was younger, he doesn't overoptimize his financial decisions and instead seeks to minimize friction, allowing money to flow where it's needed without causing stress or friction in his life.

What advice does Grant have for people who are new to managing their finances?

Grant advises people to first understand their net worth and have a baseline level of financial knowledge. He suggests reading a few key books or watching educational videos to gain this knowledge. He also emphasizes the importance of seeking out specific advice from experts when needed and focusing on the big picture rather than getting lost in the details.

How does Grant approach the concept of financial independence?

Grant's approach to financial independence involves building a business to sell, structuring it in a way that the sale will be taxed at capital gains treatment, and reinvesting profits back into the business. He also focuses on keeping his taxable income low and building a company that can provide him with enough income to live comfortably without needing to withdraw money from the business.

What are some key takeaways from Grant's conversation about money and personal finance?

Key takeaways include understanding the importance of money as a tool for freedom, the value of educating oneself about personal finance, the significance of building adaptability and resilience in investments considering climate change, and the evolution of one's relationship with money as they grow and change. Grant also emphasizes the importance of aligning financial decisions with personal values and intuition.

Outlines

00:00

💡 Introduction to Financial Mindset

The speaker discusses the common misconceptions and stressors surrounding money, particularly among young adults. They highlight the societal pressure that equates success with wealth and the resulting stress of not having enough. The conversation then shifts to an interview with Grant Sabatier, who shares his unique perspective on personal finance and the journey he took from financial struggles to becoming a successful entrepreneur and advocate for financial freedom.

05:01

🌱 Growing Up Amid Financial Struggles

Grant shares his personal story, starting with his upbringing in a financially strained household. He talks about the pressure he felt growing up as an only child with parents who made significant sacrifices for his opportunities. Despite academic success, Grant found himself lost and struggling financially after college, which led to introspection about the nature of money and its role in his life.

10:03

📚 The Turning Point: Reevaluating Money

The speaker describes a pivotal moment when Grant began to question the societal obsession with money. After finding himself broke and unemployed, he started to research and rethink the conventional wisdom around money. He discovered that much of the information available was outdated or misleading, leading him to a philosophical exploration of money's true value and its impact on personal freedom.

15:03

🚀 From Broke to Financial Independence

Grant details his journey from financial instability to saving over $1.25 million in just five years. He explains how he transitioned from various unfulfilling jobs to finding success in digital marketing. His philosophy shifted to viewing money as a tool to acquire freedom, leading him to save aggressively, invest wisely, and ultimately achieve financial independence.

20:05

🤔 Reflecting on Money and Relationships

The conversation delves into the psychological aspects of money, particularly how it affects relationships and personal growth. Grant discusses the scarcity mindset and the narrative of life not being fair, which he internalized from his upbringing. He shares how these perceptions influenced his adult life and financial choices, and how he managed to shift his mindset towards a more abundant and empowering view of money.

25:06

🌟 Leveraging Knowledge for Financial Success

Grant emphasizes the importance of understanding one's financial situation and having a basic knowledge of money management. He suggests that even a small amount of financial literacy can provide a significant advantage. He also talks about the value of seeking expert advice for specific financial issues and how this approach helped him in his business endeavors, illustrating the importance of leveraging expertise to fill knowledge gaps.

30:07

🛠️ Simplifying Finances and Focusing on the Big Picture

The speaker advises on keeping financial strategies simple and focusing on the big picture. He argues that understanding the inflow and outflow of money, managing expenses, and saving or investing wisely are the key components of both personal and business finance. He warns against overcomplicating finances and encourages learning from basic resources to gain the necessary language and understanding to navigate financial decisions effectively.

35:07

🌍 Considering Climate Change in Long-Term Investments

Grant discusses the significant risk that climate change poses to investment portfolios and the importance of adapting investment strategies accordingly. He highlights the potential for climate refugees and the impact of climate on infrastructure and supply chains. He also talks about his personal investments in renewable energy and property in areas less affected by climate change, emphasizing the need to build resilience and adaptability into one's financial and life plans.

40:09

🤖 The Impact of AI on Future Financial Strategies

The conversation turns to the impact of artificial intelligence on financial strategies and the potential for AI to disrupt traditional income streams. The speaker shares his concerns about the future of online money-making methods and the need to adapt quickly to changes in technology. He operates under the assumption that current methods of making money may not be viable in the future, leading him to focus on saving, investing, and exiting businesses strategically.

45:10

💬 The Evolution of Money Relationships and Personal Growth

Grant reflects on how his relationship with money has evolved over time, from the emotional high of achieving financial goals to the realization that money doesn't fundamentally change who he is. He discusses the freedom that comes with financial security and the importance of not over-optimizing or over-extending oneself financially. He emphasizes the importance of being intuitive and honest with oneself about money, and how his relationship with money continues to grow and change as he does.

🌐 Staying Connected and Moving Forward

In the concluding segment, Grant shares how he prefers to stay connected with his audience, primarily through his newsletter and Instagram. He encourages people to engage with him through these platforms to continue the conversation on money, personal growth, and mindfulness. He also invites people to explore his website for in-depth content and insights on these topics.

Keywords

💡Financial Independence

Financial Independence refers to the state where an individual has enough savings, investments, and other assets to cover all living expenses without having to work actively for money. In the video, the guest talks about achieving financial independence by saving $1.25 million in 5 years, 3 months, and 6 days, which allowed them to not have to work for money anymore and instead focus on what they are passionate about.

💡Scarcity Mindset

Scarcity mindset is a belief that there is not enough to go around, leading to a focus on lack and limitation. In the video, the guest discusses how growing up in a financially strained environment instilled a scarcity mindset, where they believed that to win, someone else had to lose, and money was always a source of stress and worry.

💡Personal Finance

Personal finance refers to the management and use of one's own financial resources, including budgeting, saving, investing, and planning for retirement. The video emphasizes the importance of personal finance education and how it can transform one's life, as the guest's journey from financial ignorance to financial independence illustrates.

💡Mindfulness

Mindfulness is the practice of being fully present and engaged in the current moment without judgment. In the context of the video, mindfulness is related to financial decisions and the guest's approach to money as an energy that should be used consciously and intentionally.

💡Victim Mentality

Victim mentality is a mindset where an individual perceives themselves as a victim of circumstances beyond their control. The guest in the video discusses how growing up with financial struggles led to a victim mentality, feeling that the rich were getting richer at the expense of others.

💡Digital Marketing

Digital marketing refers to the promotion of products or services using digital channels such as search engines, social media, email, and websites. In the video, the guest's entry into digital marketing through a digital agency job was a pivotal step in their journey to financial independence.

💡Side Hustle

A side hustle is an additional job or business activity that is done alongside one's primary job to earn extra income. The guest in the video emphasizes the empowering aspect of side hustles, which allow individuals to take control of their financial future and not solely rely on a traditional job.

💡Retirement

Retirement is the stage of life when a person stops working and begins to live off their savings or pension. The video discusses the concept of financial independence in relation to retirement, highlighting that achieving financial freedom can change one's perspective on retirement and life's purpose.

💡Your Money or Your Life

Your Money or Your Life is a book by Vicki Robins and Joe Dominguez that focuses on the idea of aligning one's financial decisions with their values and life goals to achieve greater fulfillment. The guest credits this book as a life-changing influence that shifted their perspective on money and its role in their life.

💡Ego and Finance

Ego and finance refers to the interplay between one's sense of self and their financial decisions. In the video, the guest discusses the paradox of ego in the pursuit of financial independence, suggesting that trying to be someone you're not for the sake of money can lead to inner emptiness despite financial success.

Highlights

98% of what I was finding was either a complete scam or just really kind of outdated.

Rich are just getting richer and they're stealing everything from everyone else.

My money story really begins... I grew up in outside of Washington DC, really amidst the meritocracy but I wasn't born there.

My parents really struggled with money my entire childhood.

I saved $1.25 million in 5 years, three months, and six days.

Time is so much more valuable than money, so make sure that how you make, save, and invest money ultimately is helping you acquire more freedom in your life.

I ended up working at a digital agency and saving 80% of my $52,000 salary.

I think there's this real scarcity component, where I think a lot of people even in how we talk about money is there's never enough.

As you begin to make, save, and grow your wealth, and actually take the time to understand what that freedom means, you reclaim a lot of that brain energy back.

You have to understand where you're at, so many people complaining about their financial life but they don't know something as simple as their net worth.

I think we're at a remarkable time to be alive right now, like just having access to blueprints and there's a lot of amazing resources and communities.

It's really those three things (inflow, expenses, and savings rate) in both your personal finances and your business finances that matter, everything else is just noise.

I keep two years of my living expenses just in a high yield savings account and that's what I live on.

I think the biggest risk to every single person's investing portfolio is climate change.

The most successful entrepreneurs are the ones who are able to adapt the most and resilience is key to adaptation.

I'm operating under the principle that every way in which I'm making money right now won't be possible past the next five years.

Money is a reflection of who you are, and the more time you spend with it, the easier it all becomes.

Transcripts

98% of what I was Finding was either a

complete scam or just really kind of

outdated a lot of people in their young

20s you know I had no idea what I wanted

to do with my life for me to win someone

else has to lose the rich are just

getting richer and they're stealing

everything from everyone else you know

this is kind of like a victim mindset or

mentality why is it something that we

fixate so much on why is it something

that stresses us out why is it something

that you know everyone's really obsessed

with money was stressful we never had

enough you see a lot of people they

reach retirement or or they become a

successful entrepreneur and they're like

oh my God what am I going to do with my

life I remember when I was starting my

second company saving $1.25 million in 5

[Music]

years hey everyone welcome back uh now

I'm very excited for today's

conversation we're joined with Grant

sabatier uh Grant how's it going it's

good how are you I'm doing good uh we

were talking about this earlier outside

of being in a very rainy weather in

Vancouver uh I'm doing great um but I'm

also I'm looking forward to this

conversation Grant CU I mean there's

many reasons but specifically like we

were talking I think a few weeks ago and

something that's really stuck out to me

about the way that you talk about money

is just your overall perspective on this

entire world of personal finance and to

be honest I think it could be surprising

to some people if they were just to look

at your highlight reel of like where you

started where you're going where you

came from um and so before we dive into

you know the nitty-gritty and we go

through strategies and tips I do think

that it will be helpful for people to

understand just a little bit of your

your background to see like why it is

that you're so passionate about this and

why you have been I'm such an advocate

for personal finance yeah so my money

story really begins you know I grew up

um you know in outside of Washington DC

really amidst the the meritocracy but I

wasn't born there I was born in Southern

Indiana in a One-Stop light town and my

parents grew up with very very little

and they decided to leave their very

large families and and move somewhere

where they didn't know anyone really to

give me a new opportunity and I'm an

only child and so you can imagine being

told that story when you're when you're

a young child that your parents

literally uprooted their entire life to

give you a better opportunity you know

it really stuck with me and and created

a lot of pressure I I think in my life

and then it was something where my

parents really struggled with money my

entire childhood uh really really

throughout my my high school years as

well and it was always something that

was talked about money was stressful we

never had enough it was something my

parents fought about it was very present

in our life it was something that you

know I wish I could run as far away from

it as possible um and my parents really

embedded a lot of you know their hopes

and their dreams into me and so I had

was kind of that that perennial uh child

and you know I worked hard ended up

graduating number two in my class and

ended up going to the University of

Chicago you know good school where I

played soccer and got some academic

money and really was was Off to the

Races and you know when I got there I

was like a lot of people in their young

20s you know I had no idea what I wanted

to do with my life and you know I felt

like there was something really really

wrong with me because of that and so you

know when you don't want know what you

want to be or where you want to you know

what you want to do uh you tend to to

bounce around a lot of things and so

after college I bounced around you know

four different jobs very very different

jobs didn't find the right fit ended up

being completely broke and having to

move back home with my parents these

parents that embedded so much of of

their life into me and their dreams into

me and I remember it was uh July 2010 I

was back home and they invited me to a

July 4th picnic and now my parents are

in their late 50s you know all their

friends late 50s early 60s and all

anyone talked about you know I was the

only adult child there quote unquote all

they talked about was retirement you

know everyone was talking about oh I'm

going to retire in 3 years 5 years 10

years and it was all they could really

talk about was money and you know I was

completely broke and didn't have a job

and you know it was a really beautiful

summer and I started thinking to myself

gosh you know what really is money like

why is it something that we fixate so

much on why is it something that

stresses us out why is it something that

you know everyone's really obsessed with

and I really you know paradoxically

hadn't thought about money much up to

that point uh until I was really really

broke and had no other option um and I

put on my you know philosophy major hat

and started thinking about money and

started going down the rabbit hole of of

what was written about money and

realized pretty quickly that you know

98% of what I was Finding was either a

complete scam or just really kind of

outdated and you know off and awkward

and um and then I started seeing

everyone talk about money as a tool and

you know happiness and all these things

wrapped up into one and I ended up

thankfully getting a book your money or

your life by Vicky Robins and Joe

Dominguez and I read it in August 2010

it completely changed my life it

introduced me to the idea that whenever

you're working you're trading your life

energy for money and time is so much

more valuable than money and so make

sure that how you make save and invest

money ultimately is helping you acquire

more freedom in your life this just

completely blew my mind uh and really

became my life philosophy so ended up

getting into digital marketing um at a

time you know when when Google ads was

was was you know pretty much in its

infancy and you know I ended up working

at a digital agency and saving 80% of my

$52,000 salary and then starting a side

hustle and starting a second and you

know I was kind of The Perennial kind of

fire movement story where you know I

saved over 80% of my income lived

extremely broke and ended up you know

through launching two different

companies uh saving $1.25 million in

five years three months and six days

from the day that I left my parents

house um effectively reaching Financial

Independence and really for that 5-year

period pretty much all I thought about

uh was money and really traded my late

20s mid to late 20s uh in the pursuit of

money but it's like anything else in

life you know while my friends were out

going to Chicago you know Bulls games

and having drinks and going to Coachella

I was sitting there figuring out how to

make more money and thinking about money

very very deeply and I popped out the

other end uh with with quite a bit of

money and some pretty unique Nuance

thoughts at least I think so you know

about money and energy and time and

Consciousness and all those things and

um started to share those with others

and launched a website Millennial money

and that grew and you know ended up

starting another business and you know I

feel very very grateful that you know I

finally found what I wanted to do and

that was you know help other others get

more freedom in their life but you know

it took me till you know I was a little

over 30 years old to to figure that out

I mean I I think that's great to hear

one just because there's like it's never

a linear Journey um but you brought up

two things that I think is interesting

which is so you said you grew up you

know only child money wasn't abundant

and uh your parents often fought about

money and I think that there's sometimes

this perception that like oh if we grow

up without very much that it means that

we are going to be a certain way with

money and what's interesting is despite

the pressure that you had from your

parents despite what you saw as far as

like oh my God I never want to

experience that for some reason you know

you you find yourself and which is so

common I think most of us have been

there you find yourself in the situation

where you're like wait this is exactly

what I didn't want how am I here and

then somehow you managed to switch it

but but I'm curious if youve had time to

kind of reflect on you know what were

some of the the triggers from when you

were younger that maybe seeped into your

your adult life um with managing money

yeah I mean I think there's just a real

kind of scarcity mindset you know is

kind of how we talk about it today where

there's just never enough and you know

there's this kind of life isn't fair

narrative that was really embedded along

with that you know there's there's never

enough money we're not going to have

enough money and you know I think that's

environment that a lot of people grow up

in it's kind of like well you know for

me to win someone else has to lose or

there's not enough for everyone to go

around you know money for every you know

for it to go around or the rich are just

getting richer and they're stealing

everything from everyone else and you

know this is kind of like uh victim

mindset or mentality and and certainly

um systemically the system is set up to

Advantage certain types of people based

on what they look like and where they

grew up uh more more than others um and

you know I'm the first one to to you

know recognize that you know I am a

white male you know and and and have a

lot of advantages that that others you

know haven't had uh but I think there

there's this real scarcity component

where I think a lot of people even in

how we talk about money so much of

what's talked about is you know

budgeting and saving and cutting back

and there's this real lack you know

there's this real like you got to cut

everything out of your life in order to

get where you want to go and so for me

switching from that to being like oh wow

I just made $50,000 building a WordPress

website you know in a week for a law

firm whoa I just made more money you

know in a week than I made you know in a

year in my full-time job gez that you

know is is there an upside here um and

really you know that's the beautiful

thing it's so nice people talking about

side hustles you know so liberally today

you know and I started writing about it

like there were 200 searches a month for

side hustling and now everyone's

figuring out how to make money on their

own terms and that's an incredibly

empowering thing right it's like you no

longer have to settle for someone else

controlling your time you have more

control over it yourself and so I think

for me that was a huge shift um and you

know I I think another one is just when

it comes to relationships generally you

know when money is really at the center

of your relationship and it certainly

was at the center of my parents

relationship and when you don't have a

lot of money that's really kind of all

you can think about and when you don't

have a lot it's like you know I think

probably 80% of your your your

day-to-day life is dominated uh you know

around money or thinking about money and

the Beautiful Thing is that as you begin

to make save uh and grow your wealth and

and actually take the time to understand

what that freedom means and take

advantage of some of it it's like you

reclaim a lot of that that that brain

energy back and so that's one of the

cool things too it's like now you know I

really think about money because I have

more than I'll ever need and so I have a

lot more time to think about other

things and I have a lot more space to do

other things and so I think there's an

element there where you see a lot of

people they reach retirement or or they

become a successful entrepreneur and

they're like oh my gosh what am I going

to do with my life and the big the big

reason is they're wondering is because

now they have like 80% of their brain

back um and they have to fill it with

something and so that that's another

piece where um you know I recognize even

in my friends you know I have friends

who are still really really stressed

about money and you know that's the

biggest thing that I see it's just just

dominates a lot of their energy and a

lot of their thinking time right and I

think that's a really great Point too as

far as the the conversations that you

have access to and I think you know like

100% a socioeconomic issue where if you

aren't around people that have money or

have you know advisers like I mean I

think it was within the last 50 years

there been 150,000 words added to the

tax code so you know this whole idea of

like oh the rich keep getting richer you

know if you pull back I think the

emotion behind that statement you know

just objectively if you have access to

resources accountants lawyers who

understand how this whole financial

system works you know you kind of do

have more time to think about you know

what do I want to do or how am I going

to use my money so that I have more time

for

myself however most of us don't have

access to an army of accountant and

lawyers uh even if you did grow up even

like you know middle class or upper

middle class um and this is something

that you have talked about in depth

right is like how do you leverage this

you know quotequote rigged Financial

system and I'm curious if there are any

specific strategies or even things that

people should be thinking through for

like how you actually even start to make

this work for you I mean the first thing

is you have to understand where you're

at so I see a lot of people complaining

about their financial life and their

financial situation but they don't know

something as simple as their net worth

or you know how much profit their

business you know their business is

making it's like remarkable how little

Clarity people have on just where

they're starting from today so if you

never have Clarity with where you're

starting from today you're just you're

not going to get anywhere right you're

you're you're at the the whims of the

market so you have to know ultimately

first where you're starting from and

then the next thing is you have to have

a baseline level of knowledge you have

to understand at least some of the

language to talk about money and this

doesn't mean you have to go read like 25

books it means you have to read like

three or four books or watch you know

five hours of YouTube videos or

something you know it's not like you

have to be get an MBA you know or PhD in

money but you know reading books like

mine or R sees or you know Morgan

howel's the psychology of money or you

know you can really a lot of the top you

know 100 personal finance books they're

pretty good they're going to teach you

kind of Ally what you need to know and

the same thing is true with your

business finances you know you can sit

and read um you know um just a few books

like you know traction or you know the

e- myth Revisited or you know there's

there there there's just a handful that

you can just read and just having the

Baseline language to be able to talk

about business then allows you to

rapidly seek out the pieces of advice

that are going to help you get an

advantage and what I mean by that is I

remember when I was starting my second

company and I was building an LLC and I

wanted to have business partners and I

was like gosh okay I know how an LLC is

structured and that I want to be taxed

as an S corp but I have no idea how to

structure you know an LLC pass through

Equity agreement right so I ordered the

$10 book you know Kindle book from some

expert guy who you know was was an

attorney in in in North Carolina and I

read that and I kind of understood but I

was like this is this is all foreign to

me I'm just going to figure F out you

know who's an expert in this so I just

Googled and found a guy who charges

$1,500 an hour and I ended up paying him

for 15 minutes of his time I actually

looked at this email recently you know

was like like eight years ago and I I

literally reached out I was like you

know your fees are very expensive I only

have one question I can send the

question beforehand can I buy 15 minutes

of your time and he was like yep sounds

good and so literally you know build me

for 15 minutes of his time I think he

talked to you for 17 minutes so he went

over a little bit but I was able to get

this very very specific question

that probably you know you'd need to

have this you know $1,500 an hour lawyer

New York lawyer you know like on

retainer in order to get it answered so

I think getting Clarity knowing a bit of

the basic language and then just seeking

out on a pay per hour or pay per

15minute basis that one person um who

has that expertise who can just fill in

that Gap in your own knowledge and so I

think that's really important as well

and you can just rinse and repeat that

really for anything um and it really

just perplexes me when you know I've got

a really good friend you know she was at

like uber for for 10 years and like had

all this equity and she's like super

smart PhD from California Berkeley

Economist like amazing and I was having

a chat with her one night and she's like

yeah you know like I really don't know

much about my money I just you know

outsourc all of that and and like really

couldn't even have a basic conversation

about it just because she didn't care

and I was like oh my gosh like you just

spent 10 years of your life making all

this money and getting all this freedom

and and and you haven't even just spent

a little bit of time thinking through

how it works like how do you even know

what to ask your financial adviser and

so I think it's important just to get a

Basel line level of language um and then

the final thing is like what an

remarkable time to be alive right now

like just having access to to Blueprints

and yeah there's a lot of like really

bad and crappy blueprints but but I

think we're like anyone listening to

this is is probably pretty smart and

pretty Discerning and you can kind of

sniff through you know the things that

are good and the things that are bad and

if you just search for a little while

like blueprints start popping out and

there's a lot of really amazing people

out there sharing their stories and how

they did things for free and a lot of

amazing resources and a lot of amazing

communities and um if if you really want

to find it and you're you're a little

bit curious it it's it's definitely out

there yeah it's I'm glad that you

actually that you you call like the

basic language because I've been so

fascinated with trying to learn about

money in the same way that you would try

to learn like literally another language

because I think that what's interesting

is that when you learn a language you

understand you know for the most part if

you're really diving into it you

understand like basic vocab or words but

there's also you know understanding of

the culture understanding of like why

certain words or phrases are said in a

certain way but then with money it's

like we try to memorize Concepts we try

like it's like basically when you're in

school like trying to memorize things

and I often see people go and myself

included going in and trying to learn

everything and then being like woof well

I'm not good with money but it's like

going into like an English 12 if you've

never even done English one right um and

so if we could just take a step back

when it comes to like maybe bucketing or

compartmentalizing the different aspects

of like okay I need to focus on this

first then I need to focus on this are

there like highle buckets that you

recommend people focusing on to start to

kind of build up that letter for ladder

rather for um understanding Finance yeah

first off I want to address the fact

that not knowing a lot about money

especially when it comes comes to you

know being an entrepreneur is actually a

real Advantage because I've had many

conversations with Wharton level NBAs

who because they're so in the weeds

they're so analytical they're

overanalyzing things that really at

their core are quite simple and I think

when it comes to money it's really not

that complicated and certainly when it

comes to business finances it's even

less complicated you know what I mean

it's like how much money am I making how

much money am I saving you know how much

money am I spending you know the levers

are are quite simple right so you need

to you know understand you know first

off you know the the the inflow of money

like how much money am I making where is

it coming from right you need to

understand your expenses where where am

I spending money the biggest thing you

know and there's there's so many

connections between your personal

finances and your business finances it's

like most people where they get in

trouble is that number one they don't

have enough cash flow coming in right so

they're not making enough money in their

personal life or in their business

number two their expenses are too high

in their own you know in in in your

personal finances you've got a mortgage

that's too expensive or a car payment

that's too expensive same thing with

your business you you've hired and you

know a website developer who's charging

you way above Market rates and you know

it's it's and that that's how you bleed

your money right so it's like your

expenses get out of control you know and

then the other thing is like what

percentage you know uh what's the

difference that that you're saving or

you know in your own life it's what

you're saving and investing right it's

your savings rate your investing rate

and that's the percentage of your income

that ultimately correlates to how

quickly you can reach Financial

Independence and then your business it's

what's percent of percentage of the

profit are you able to keep and and take

home and either decide to put it in your

bank account to spend put it in your

bank account to invest in some other

asset class or as a business owner

reinvest it back into your business and

it's really those three things in both

your personal finances and your business

finances that matter everything else is

just noise it's just finer detail on

those three points and so you can get

lost very quickly and I still get lost

and I run a multi-million dollar

business and I have a lot of money I

still get lost lost in cash flow

statements and in my balance sheet and

the these are things that like I know

how they work and I've created them and

they're tracking things that even you

know that that that are in my business

that I know and I still get slipped up

because the the more detail that you put

into anything um especially business

financial statements the more kind of

open to interpretation and and gray area

that you're introducing and so I know

how to look at them to make decisions

about my business but you know I think a

lot of people if they had a lot more

expertise and me would look at them and

probably overanalyze them and get so

lost in the weeds and you see this in in

in kind of the business sort of

Acquisitions and merger space a lot of

people just like focus on the wrong

things and so those are really kind of

the three things and then everything

else is just noise um and you can Google

it and probably find an Investopedia

article that you don't understand about

the topic and realize that you know I've

been doing this a long time and that

happens to me every other day you know

I'm I'm researching topics and I have no

idea you know what this means even after

reading it even after reading three or

four articles and that's okay um if it's

that complicated you probably don't need

to know it and you should just like pay

someone else for that expertise or it's

just noise and you know um you can just

come back to it later so I think keeping

it simple is really really important and

and is actually an advantage the less

you know going in because you don't have

all this baggage that you're bringing

you to the table to the conversation so

true it reminds me of I don't know if

you've ever spent time in the the

subreddits for credit card points uh I

knew people that were really into that

world and the perception that they give

of this world is that you need to know

so much you need to start enjoying

reading contracts and then you now with

oo and obviously we were creating

content and learning about this like I

was like wait a second this isn't

actually that it doesn't need to be that

complicated like yes you can do all

these like crazy things I'm like I just

book business class flights for $60 and

this whole time I thought that I need to

spend Years Learning it um but

it's yeah I'm glad that you bring that

up and also the point that you know your

business and personal finances are so

closely tied um I think there's this

idea maybe that not consciously but

unconsciously that maybe I'm not good

with my personal finances but like

business I got that like this time this

is how I'm going to look after it um and

on that note you were talking about you

know those three buckets one of them is

potentially

investing uh question that came up

yesterday one of our community members

was you know everyone talks about

retirement long-term investing you know

index funds ETFs all of that but how do

you grant think about investing when it

comes to even like shorter term and like

what are some of the things that you're

thinking through as far as like it

probably makes sense to consider these

types of Investments and um managing

that yeah I'll come to the side door

here uh the first thing it builds on on

the previous question which is I think a

lot of people try to over optimize their

financial life and even when they know

like the credit card points piece it's

like there is ultimately everything when

it comes to money there's a point of

diminishing returns there's sort of like

yes you can go deeper yes you can become

more of an expert yes you can figure out

this very nuanced thing but is your time

better spent doing that or actually

spent on going out and meeting some of

your customers or launching a new

product or launching into a new market

so I think that's a real thing with

money is that the people once you dig

into the rabbit hole you know over

optimization just becomes money

addiction you know in in another form um

and then I think you know to to kind of

build on that it really when it comes to

investing right now my life is like

quite complicated because the more money

that you do make just the more options

that you have right and so I can I could

literally spend you know 100 hours a

week just managing my money and try to

find the perfect place for it but that's

just not how I really want to spend my

time and so the way that I manage my

money is quite simple I keep two years

of my living expenses just in a high

yield savings account and that's what I

live on and so that's my cash that is

the money that goes It goes directly

every month from my high yield savings

account to my checking account and then

I pay my bills I pay my property

mortgages I pay my credit card off of

that I always keep this very large cash

buffer and I keep it in a high yield

savings account you know I'm getting a

little over 4 and a half% you know it's

a great time to have your money in a

savings account right now any money that

you're going to need for the next 5

years or less high yield savings account

is just a no-brainer put it in there

there's a ton of you know good options

and that that's where you should quote

unquote be be investing your money for

the longer term the answer is still

quite simple um you know the the tried

inure answer as you know is just invest

in you know a Vanguard Total stock

market index fund which is essentially

you know you're buying over two thou

pieces of over 2,000 companies in the US

and just and just let it ride right it's

going to go up some years and down some

years but you know over the the the next

25 years years even though it probably

won't perform you know as well as it has

in the last 100 which you know on

average it's about

7.2% uh dividend and inflation adjusted

returns you know per year it's probably

going to be a little bit less you know

probably in the four to 5% range and so

um knowing that you know plan your life

accordingly but I'm at a point now where

I'd say probably 90% of my net worth is

in index funds and then 5% is in real

estate I own three properties and then

5% is in my holding in my business and

right now I'm at a point where I feel

like I don't need to invest any more in

an index fund for the foreseeable future

I have enough stock exposure a big

enough pie there I could live off the

interest there forever right now every

dollar that I'm making I'm trying to

reinvest back into my company and the

big reason for that is I know exactly

how to use the money it's not like me

investing you know into Amazon and being

like hey Amazon you know Andrew jaffy

like good luck with this dollar you know

I hope you use it well right and they're

like what do we do we're not going to

finish our you know grants grants

investment would have built a you know

would have built a a great you know

conference room door at our new

Arlington Virginia headquarters but

we're not going to we're not going to

use that money anymore you know what I

mean it's like when you when you invest

in those companies you're like relying

on them to keep growing the business and

I think you know we're just in a lot of

uncertainty so I don't want to give my

money uh out to to any of those

companies you know specifically I want

to control as much of it as possible

because I know exactly how to invest a

dollar so right now I'm investing you

know 100% of the money that I make back

into my business and I'm at the same

time I'm doing it as a way to try to

keep my taxable income as low as

possible right so I'm using that

strategy to my advantage where it's like

yes I could take the money out and I

could spend it but I don't need the

money to spend I could take it out and

you know buy you know stocks with it but

I'd rather just reinvest it back into

the business and control it because I'm

running a company of which I own 60% of

and I know the best way to use my money

and so I you know I'm going to do that

and then the advantage of doing that is

that I'm building a company to sell and

so I'm I've structured it in a way that

when I sell the company uh you know that

that sale will be um you know taxed at

at cap capital gains treatment so you

know if I took the money out of the

business today that money I'm going to

have to pay self-employment taxes on it

you know I'm going to have to pay you

know New York and Ohio uh income tax on

it you know it's like I get taxed you

almost 40% on that money whereas if I

let it Let It Go and Keep building the

business I can create a bigger business

and then I could sell that and you

hopefully be taxed it you know 20% you

know in a couple of years when I sell

that business and get that advantage and

so that's that's how I you know manage

my money right now I think it just goes

to the point of you know when you're

starting out you're like oh like I'm not

making very much money and I need to

budget but if you can get comfortable

with budgeting where wherever you're

starting you know as soon as your money

or your money as soon as your business

starts making more money to to your

point it's not like you actually

strategically don't want to be putting

in as much money into your bank account

um because you know you do have to pay

for those those taxes um now just kind

of going back to and maybe this is this

question is going to age well or very

poorly um but when it comes to managing

long-term Investments um just

conversations that have been coming up

lately uh you know just around just like

uncertainty you know whether it's like

the news of like China and Brazil no

longer training the US dollar or index

funds like it's not the way to be

because everyone's just automatically

reinvesting in them um are there any

like red flags or certain things that

would make you think differently about

like index funds or just long-term

investing or like kind of how do you

just like navigate that when you hear

those things come up I love this

question I think the biggest risk to

every single person's investing

portfolio that's listening to this is

climate change 100% And I think that now

just the past couple of years you know

you see people like Janet yelling you

see you know you know the larger Banks

being like hey um you know climate's

going to going to really impact you know

our investments and then you look at

places like Florida and you know how you

know the large insurers won't even

insure homes down there because of the

flood planes and you look at somewhere

like Houston where like if Houston gets

flooded again you know the insurers

won't even cover the rebuilding of

Houston right you look at some something

like the water in the Colorado River or

the saddest thing right now you know

Jess is all of the people in the US that

are moving to like the Phoenix sort of

Tucson Arizona area where there's

affordable homes and I just saw that the

world's largest subdivision just opened

up recently you know in that area and

people are just flocking to it but this

is a place that every single climate

model says will be completely unlivable

in the next 20 years there's just not

enough water it's going to be too hot

and there's not enough water and so

you're going to see massive climate

refugees moving from the southwest North

into the Northwest and so things are get

really wild in our in our lifetime uh

you know and so how you invest for that

is um in somewhere that you can live you

know thinking about more locally and so

one of the things that I did is you know

I spent you know

$52,000 putting solar panels you know on

my house in Ohio three years ago and I

just got an email from AAP the electric

company here that they're going to raise

the rates 70% this summer you know what

my electricity bill is for my house

every summer it's like $8 a month right

and now my neighbor going to have to pay

you know3 or $400 a month if not more

and so you start seeing these things

where on your everyday expenses just the

impact of climate you know most of the

tax revenue for most cities you know

it's not going to be enough money to

support the climate projects you know to

support you know the increased rain you

know across so many places in the US um

I mean you look at the Pacific Northwest

and like you know the salmon population

and just like somewhere like Whidby

Island you know Washington you look like

they're not going to have any like

spruce trees youan it's it's estimated

that the next 30 Years all the spruce

trees are going to die so it's like what

happens to that microclimate in that

region and I think you know five years

ago this conversation was like um you

know being had amongst more kind of like

older liberal kind of hippies right and

now it's starting to get a little bit

more mainstream right but I still think

the average everyday investor is just

just doesn't even understand the impact

that climate is going to have even just

on an index fund um a and you know yes

there'll be some companies that make

money and innovate and figure it out and

clean energy companies that do well but

I think that just throwing all your

money in a long-term index fund and

thinking everything is going to work out

in the future you know just completely

underestimates the impact that the

climate's going to have on just the

entire supply chain and infrastructure

so then the question becomes like how do

you build more adaptability and

resilience into your life move somewhere

based on you know or or at least

evaluate the climate model for locations

that you're thinking about moving um you

know I'm looking at property in Maine in

areas where it's like I can you know I

mean you can buy like a $40,000 piece of

land and just be a little bit more

insulated you know just as an insurance

policy and so I'm looking at you know

where I'm moving and then when it comes

to being an entrepreneur the best thing

about being an entrepreneur is that

ultimately you can you know you have

more control over your destiny and the

most successful entrepreneurs are the

ones who are able to adapt the most and

just key to adaptation you you know is

is resilience right so you're going to

see a lot of people taking control of

how they make money but needing to Pivot

more rapidly um and using ultimately

your business as insulation around your

life I think about this in concentric

circles it's like you imagine your life

in your home and your fames at the

center the next ring outside of that is

is going to be your business so you're

building a business ultimately in a way

to sustain your life Empower your life

and then the ring outside of that are

your other Investments so how are you

ultimately extending out into the world

and investing in a way that you know can

can can help you to the extent possible

kind of mitigate this this kind of risk

and I don't mean to sound like so Doom

and Gloom here um but it's it's it's uh

it's it's going to be really really

important to um you know right now while

it's never been easier in history to

make money try to make as much as you

can and save that money and buy a house

that you can live in or a couple of

houses and um perhaps be located near

you know a food system or learn about

permaculture and you know buy some grow

lights and throw them in your basement

and you know it depends on how preer you

want to get but um I do I do think that

people just are out to lunch when it

comes to estimating the the everyday

investor just the impact that the

climate can have well I think like even

just like Beyond like okay I need to

find like green companies to invest in

like I think just it reminds me of uh I

do chess lessons uh CU I'm horrible at

it and I I used to like when I was

learning my teach

I was trying to remember moves I was

trying to remember exactly like in this

situation I do this uh and she was like

in chess but also in life it's like

don't remember Mo or don't memorize

moves memorize Concepts and ideas and I

think that like to your point of you

know just looking at climate change is

happening whether like even like the

most whatever like whatever people

believe if you want to go like one side

or the other but like if you were just

to say like what we all can agree on

climate change is happening and so you

need to think like you know like what

would that mean for your life like

you're saying your business your your

Investments um and so I I'm glad that

you bring this up because I don't think

it's something that we can really like

like there's any like push back or you

can disagree on and I think that to be

able to be a few steps ahead is

incredibly powerful and just Harvest

harvest the money now I mean like look

at the time that we're we're we're alive

in right now like in terms of making

money online and just the the ways in

which you can make money it's just it's

mindblowing you know and it's not like

mind blowing in like the build all these

passive income stream ways it's like

mind-blowing in the like you know it's

actually legitimate and true and so for

me I'm operating under the principle

that every way in which I'm making money

right now won't be possible past the

next five years and so that's my

assumption every single thing SEO is

going to get cut by AI all my traffic's

going to dry up you know Tik tok's going

to get banned the social media platforms

are going to come under a lot of

constraints Young consumers are you know

dropping down and and and going more

analog and so people who are interested

in money concepts are going to be using

flip phones and so are they even going

to be you know even in terms of how I'm

writing my next book like will people

even be reading money books you know in

in in the next five years and and how

will they be reading them and so I'm

operating like on a really accelerated

timetable you know when it comes to my

own business of like get in save as much

invest as much as possible sell it and

then get out so it's all it's all very

very intentional from that from that

aspect I honestly I feel like this is

could not come at a better time cuz I

was going to ask you about AI I was like

okay we got climate change yeah maybe

got a few years for that until it starts

really like happening but you know AI it

is the worst it will ever be now and

that is both like incredible but also

slightly terrifying as far as like

literally it could even replace like

people right learn the best sales calls

what they're saying replicate voice so

um that's a really interesting just

perspective of like you know fiveyear

window does that like are are you

thinking long term of like what your

next business will be or is it like what

can I do in 5 years to like maximize

this effort and then potentially pivot

when the time comes yeah I mean that's

the really beautiful thing about where

I'm at in my life is you know I just

I've already accomplished way more than

I thought I ever would in my entire life

and so what I was trying to prove to

myself or my parents or whoever was

around me I've done that a couple of

times now and so so now I'm in this very

sort of expansive open free place in my

life where you know a lot of it's more

just you know seeing something in the

immediacy taking advantage of it working

with really cool people you know just

creating building you know I feel like

I'm just on a playground just like

hanging out you know you know while the

cool kids are out there you know hanging

out playing and I say that through the

lens of like I think the future is so

uncertain that any trying to plan Beyond

any 5-year timeline is just it's not

only unrealistic it's just like a waste

of time and a waste of energy and so for

me it's just like I try really hard to

get as much Clarity and think about

where we're going to be in five years

but obviously the further out that you

get the more sort of murky that it gets

right and then the question just becomes

like how much time do you want to spend

thinking about that so I'm saying that

through the lens of like I thought that

the last business that I built and sold

would be the last business that I built

and sold and now that you know and I

thought I spent a year and a half

thinking about whether I even wanted to

do anything again right and then once

the opportunity fell into my lap and was

so clear you know it was like it was

like seeing something very very clear I

was like oh I can do that and I know

exactly how and I know who I'm going to

do it with that's when I decided to do

it you know so I I'm I'm really drisking

my businesses as much as possible by

making sure I have enough Clarity uh

upfront and that it's just worth my time

and my effort and that it's helping me

as a person expand and grow in some way

I think I really really suffer uh which

just thinking too small in my life you

know it's just something when you grow

up with nothing and it's like you know

literally was just like number one goal

save a million dollars as quickly as

possible I'm like I don't know how long

this is going to take me I thought it

might take me like 15 years right and

then I did it in five and then it was

like oh crap like what's the next goal

right and I looked out and I'm like

become a billionaire oh no that sounds

like way too much work I don't want to

manage like 50 companies like I

literally went down the path of reading

like every book I could by billionaires

and I learned quite a bit but I realized

like I'm not going to be this and I

don't want to be this like great so so

like I don't need a billion dollars I

kind of want more than a million but I

don't need a billion and then I was like

how much money do I even really need

right and and it really does start

having diminishing returns or like you

know literally if you gave me like $100

million tomorrow like I don't even know

how I would spend it and I don't think

that I'm sure I just give it away like

it's it doesn't really like you know I

don't see how it add value in my life

and so then the question is like why am

I doing this thing what could I get on

the other end and then like what's the

limited time window you know for it and

so um you have spent a year and a half

like kind of just like not wanting like

trying to convince myself in every

single way not to start another company

at all and then just like everything

lined up so perfectly where I was like

all right fine guys let's do it you know

um and so yeah I'm launching this

company and I have like a whole crazy

model every single person at my company

is a full Equity partner like really

cool model and like trying out all these

new ideas and like hypotheses like you

know as I'm building it um but yeah I I

don't know if I'll do it again um but

look you know you Chang a lot yeah no

but you changed a lot in five years you

I think that's what people underestimate

about money too is like a lot of the

goals and the dreams that you have today

like you won't have in 5 years like

without a doubt like I encourage

everyone like I always say this I'm like

just go back in your email just go back

in your Gmail or whatever and like look

up an email you sent 5 years ago and

read it like to anyone like you

literally won't recognize any single

word you won't remember sending the

email you won't recognize any word that

you said it'll seem like this person's

crazy like who is this person right but

it's you it's like you sent this email

so it's like we change so rapidly and we

don't even recognize it that like who

you want to be and what you want to

become like if you kind of hold on too

tightly to that narrative you're just

going to miss like who you've already

become and so you know I try to create a

lot of open space in my life for that

and just like I have no idea what I'm

going to like maybe I maybe I want to be

a billionaire in five I know that I

won't but like maybe like things will

change because like that's the whole

thing about like saving like up enough

money for the rest of your life like get

getting to any level of certainty around

that like you have no idea who you're

going to be or what you're going to want

to do or where you going you know so

it's just kind of like try to save as

much as you can and move towards that

because there's a lot worse things like

people tell me like oh like a million

dollars is not going to be enough you

know when you're 30 and it's sort of

like okay maybe it's not going to be

enough but like there were like a lot

worse problems than like figuring out

like how to start from a million dollars

at 30 than like you know you who just

like you know save nothing you know what

I mean so it's kind of like I'd rather

just give myself more options and space

and time and freedom in my life to just

like expand my thinking cuz I really do

think really really small like some

people think like really big you know

know but I think like really small and I

think that's just because of how I grew

up and like I climb One ladder and I

look at the top I'm like oh my gosh

there's like other ladders and there's

like other people and like you know what

I mean it's like I've had breakfast with

like so many of my Idols now and like

every time I meet them I'm just like

like that that's been the reward you

know what I mean it's like being able to

like be a part of a conversation that

you want to be a part of and around

people that you want to be around like

that is like figure out what

conversations you want to be a part of

and then just like move towards that as

opposed to just like chasing money and

then like everything else kind of falls

into its place you know um I think a lot

of people are like really really

close-minded you know when it comes to

it um so interesting uh gr I talked to

you for for hours um I do have one final

question if um if you do do you have

time for that one more question let's do

it yeah let's do it okay okay um just

because I think to kind of close things

out and I know I I almost wish we could

have like a whole dedicated conversation

about this topic in particular which is

about the psychology of money the

emotional aspect and just like the the

relationship that we have with it and

something that you know I am just like

so intrigued by which is how our

relationship with money when we start to

where it is now and just the the

patterns that happen and I'm curious

because you know someone who went from

as you put it you know I went from broke

to a million dollars in 5 years um

there's a lot like you have a perception

of a million dollars when you're at the

beginning and then when you have it it's

like you don't magically just become

another person you manage money

differently um have you actively changed

any patterns of how you spend money how

you operate with money um and if not

like what was a natural like transition

or how did that changed once you started

getting bigger yeah so you know saving

the million dollars like I remember

crying like being so overwhelmed

emotionally that I'd actually

accomplished this intense goal that I'd

set that a lot of people around me

thought was just like really crazy um so

that that was really there's a lot of Mo

motion there and then then you quickly

become used to like oh wow like now I

just really don't have to think about

like how much this dinner cost or like

flying first class or you know it's like

you're going to talk to REM me obviously

and it's like you know I really learned

this from him right CU like I'm a

different generation right I'm like the

you know a millennial you know compar

compared to him and I remember reading

you know I teach you to Rich and I was

like yeah like cool like spend on those

things that bring you Joy and the first

thing that I thought once I had a

million dollars I bought Alexis I like

huge biggie fan and so I I got rid of my

$800 Nissan Maxima and I and I bought

Alexis hybrid SUV uh a 2007 so it was

used right it was like 3 years used but

it was like I love it and I still drive

it today right it's like now now I still

drive like you know what a 16-year-old

car but I like I bought the car like

gave myself the reward it was like yes

and that was really just like at that

point I realized that just having enough

money to buy something was enough I

didn't actually need to buy it you know

what I mean like I could wake up any

morning and fly anywhere in the world

immediately just having that ability is

incredibly freeing I don't have to

actually go do it um but you know I

really hate flying and so I only fly

first class that was one of the things

once I saved a million dollars I was

like I'm only going to fly first class

right but like I still buy you know my

groceries you know at like Aldi and try

to you know spend like $300 a year on

clothes you know what I mean so because

like the things that I value are very

different but like you're going to see

me on first class and any flight you

know whether it's a you know a 45 minute

flight from from here to New York I'm

going to be in that first class seat or

I'm flying around the world you know and

yes I use points and yes I use miles but

to your point I definitely don't over

optimized for it you know what I mean so

so I I but that's just something I so

that was one thing and then once I once

I had over $5 million that was when

things like you know I sold sold sold my

first company and that was when it was

like really mind-blowing where like I

literally had to go to Palm Springs and

sit by a pool for a month and a half

because I like could not like I like

couldn't put my brain back together it

was like so surreal you know what I mean

and so I I had to like literally like

like there's just so much energy coming

out of me that I had to like let it like

cool off and dissipate for a while you

know what I mean and so I so I let that

happen um and then after that no but now

but now so now that you know that's been

like you know almost five years or

something since then so you know my my

money has continued to grow um now

spending a million dollar I just

recently sent a million dollar wire for

something and sending it like I remember

like the first time I ever uh it it was

it was for it was personal um oh and and

so yeah it was personal and so I

literally went into like my little Chase

Bank uh you know here where I live and

my bank banker and I was like here I

need to send a million dollar she's like

what you know and I don't keep all my

money you know I have all my money in

Vanguard right so I don't keep all my

money at Chase so I've got to like move

money into my checking account there's a

lot of money in my checking account and

then it's like U yeah I'm getting ready

to send this wired it's like like I like

I didn't even sweat you know what I mean

I'm like rolling in there like in my

sweatpants and my birken stocks like you

know my like you know I I like you like

I could just like rolled off you know

literally just rolled out of bed and

went and did it you know whereas like I

remember before like you know when I

bought my first apartment and like

sending that you know like $112,000 wire

and being like sweaty like oh is it

going to arrive and like you know is it

you know so there there's something

where now like money is very much like

water like I'm good at making it I have

a lot and I let it flow through me into

the places that it needs to go and I

don't think you know I try to minimize

the friction like my life is so

intuition driven now that it's like if

something feels really good and right

like you know I I I just I I I do it um

but I never put myself St in like you

know a precarious situation right so I'm

never spending you know more than like

you know 5 or 10% of my net worth on

anything um and so that really helps too

right it's like because you're and I

don't take risk I take huge risks like

you know this was this was me you know

wiring money to to buy buy an apartment

to buy to buy another home somewhere

that I just really want to go you know

just a vacation property um but yeah

just it just uh you get better at it you

know money really is a relationship it's

like anything you spend a lot of time

thinking about um and being honest with

yourself about it it gets easier um and

that's something that we just don't talk

enough about we really don't like people

you know money is energy it really is

and so like the more time that you spend

with it the easier it all becomes um but

you know you have to have that

experience and start moving towards it

right because it's like the more mind

you know I always say money is a

reflection of who you are it's like if

you're really stressed in your life like

money is just going to magnify that in

some way right but if you like realize

like how much energy it took you to make

all the money that you have and then you

spend it on those those things that like

really make your life or other people's

lives better like it's it's very very

powerful it's very very freeing um you

know at least for me um and my

relationship with it continues to change

um just like you know any type of

relationship does Grant thank you so

much for for sharing this um this is

such a fascinating conversation and I

think for those of you listening you

know I I hope that this has one inspired

you to you know Venture off into the

different areas in the pockets of this

conversation and see you know is there

anything there that you can dig into a

bit more or reflect on or even apply um

but yeah I I thank you for your time I'm

so excited to you know keep following

the work that you're you're doing um and

just for people who maybe are meeting

you for the first time um what would be

the best place for people to to stay in

contact with you that's a really great

question because I don't really

participate on social media I you can

follow me on Instagram um Grant sabatier

I I respond to all my DMs there it's a

great place to DM me but you probably

won't see me post um that that's a great

spot um and then yeah you can you can

join my newsletter at grant.com or

Millennial money.com I send a newsletter

out uh every other Tuesday with uh with

kind of my deep thoughts you know on

money so it's really kind of at the

intersection of money and and

mindfulness and so kind of what we

talked about today like the one that

went out this morning is is kind of on

the the the Paradox of the Paradox of

the ego and finance Independence and so

I dig into this idea of like trying to

be someone who you're not in the pursuit

of money and ultimately how that might

help you make more money but you're

going to be left empty inside at the end

of it so that's something popped in my

head you know I spent a couple hours

writing about it and so you know I

really like to move the conversation

forward um that's kind of what I'm into

is just kind of diving deep into this

and to myself and and and and just you

know I'm kind of on the outskirts of the

money conversation and that's that's

where I like to to be so yeah subscribe

to my newsletter and it's all it's all

free and um you know there there's a lot

of content to explore on on Grant

saa.com as well so I've written written

about a lot of topics and gone pretty

deep on a lot of this stuff and and um

yeah would love to connect with you love

it and I will say one caveat make sure

that it is the uh verified version on

Instagram uh storry for another time but

out of conversation with another Grant

um but also Grant thank you so much uh

and for those of you watching we will

see you next time thanks Jess