Getting To Yes! William Ury - Part 1

Summary

In the video workshop 'Getting to Yes,' negotiation experts Roger Fisher, William Ury, and Bruce Patton introduce strategies to transform confrontational negotiations into collaborative problem-solving. They emphasize the importance of understanding underlying interests over fixed positions, using the radio station negotiation as a case study. The workshop illustrates how to prepare effectively, invent options, and explore mutual gains, aiming to elevate negotiators to an 'Olympic' level of skill.

Takeaways

• 😀 Negotiation is a skill that can be improved with practice, much like an athlete's performance with coaching.
• 🤝 The traditional view of negotiation as adversarial can be shifted to a collaborative problem-solving approach, focusing on mutual interests.
• 🏆 The goal of negotiation should be to reach an agreement that satisfies both parties' underlying interests, not just to assert one's position.
• 🧘‍♂️ Effective negotiation requires the ability to see the situation from the other party's perspective, understanding their motivations and concerns.
• 🔍 It's crucial to look beyond stated positions to uncover the real interests behind them, which can lead to creative solutions that meet both parties' needs.
• 🛠️ Preparation is key in negotiation; the quality of preparation can determine the success or failure of the negotiation before it even begins.
• 💡 Generating a wide range of options is essential in negotiation; this helps to explore various ways to meet the underlying interests of both parties.
• 🔑 Understanding the distinction between positions and interests is vital; positions are demands, while interests are the motivations behind those demands.
• 🤔 Asking 'why' is a powerful tool in negotiation; it helps to delve deeper into the reasons behind a party's stated position and uncover their true interests.
• 🤝 The process of negotiation should involve joint problem-solving with a focus on finding an agreement that both parties can accept and that doesn't leave potential joint gains on the table.
• 🌟 The video emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and improvement in negotiation skills, drawing parallels to professional athletes who always seek to enhance their performance.

Q & A

What is the main theme of the video workshop 'Getting to Yes'?

The main theme of the video workshop 'Getting to Yes' is to teach negotiation skills by transforming adversarial confrontations into collaborative problem-solving.

Why do the presenters compare negotiation skills to those of an athlete?

The presenters compare negotiation skills to those of an athlete to emphasize that, just like natural athletic ability, negotiation skills can be significantly improved with coaching and continuous learning.

What is the difference between a negotiator's position and their interests according to the script?

A negotiator's position refers to the concrete demands or terms they state they want, while their interests are the underlying motivations, needs, desires, concerns, and aspirations that lead them to take those positions.

Why is it important to understand the other side's interests in a negotiation?

Understanding the other side's interests is crucial because it allows you to put yourself in their shoes, see the world as they do, and craft a solution that meets both parties' interests, leading to a more successful negotiation.

What is the concept of BATNA in the context of the video?

BATNA stands for 'Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement.' It refers to a party's best alternative option if they cannot reach a negotiated settlement.

How does the script illustrate the process of uncovering underlying interests in a negotiation?

The script illustrates this process through the example of the radio station negotiation, where Roger Fisher asks questions to understand the owner's and the company's real needs and concerns behind their stated positions.

What is the significance of preparation in the negotiation process as highlighted in the script?

Preparation is highlighted as a critical component of successful negotiation. It involves understanding one's own interests and those of the other party, and it can significantly affect the negotiation's outcome.

What is the role of empathy in the negotiation process according to the video?

Empathy plays a crucial role in negotiation as it enables a negotiator to understand the other party's perspective, motivations, and interests, which is essential for crafting mutually beneficial agreements.

Why is it suggested to focus on the process of negotiation rather than just the substance?

Focusing on the process of negotiation helps negotiators to be more flexible and adaptable, to explore a range of possible agreements, and to ensure that the negotiation is not just about meeting one's own position but also satisfying underlying interests.

What is the purpose of inventing options in a negotiation?

The purpose of inventing options is to explore various ways in which the underlying interests of both parties might be met, broadening the scope of possible agreements and facilitating the creation of mutually beneficial solutions.

How does the script address the issue of one-sidedness in negotiation?

The script addresses the issue of one-sidedness by encouraging negotiators to broaden their repertoire of skills, to avoid focusing solely on their most confident skills, and to consider the interests and perspectives of the other party.

Outlines

00:00

📚 Introduction to Negotiation Workshop

The script introduces the video workshop 'Getting to Yes', focusing on negotiation techniques. It features Roger Fisher, William Ury, and Bruce Paton, who aim to convert confrontational negotiations into collaborative problem-solving. The paragraph emphasizes the importance of negotiation skills, comparing them to athletic abilities that can be improved with coaching. It also highlights the need to focus on the process of negotiation rather than just the outcome, using the metaphor of the 'negotiation Olympics' to inspire skill development. The script sets the stage for a series of examples and discussions on improving negotiation strategies.

05:01

🤝 The Importance of Understanding Interests in Negotiation

This paragraph delves into the concept of distinguishing between positions and interests in negotiation. It uses the example of a radio station negotiation to illustrate the point that positions are concrete demands, while interests are the underlying motivations. The speaker, Roger, guides the potential buyer to look beyond the seller's position of 14 million dollars and to understand the seller's interests, such as creative control and management participation. The paragraph underscores the necessity of preparation and the ability to empathize with the other party's perspective to craft a mutually beneficial solution.

10:03

💼 Exploring Underlying Interests and Preparation for Negotiation

The script continues the radio station negotiation scenario, with a focus on uncovering the underlying interests of both parties. It shows the importance of preparation in negotiation, suggesting that most negotiations are won or lost based on the quality of preparation. The dialogue reveals the seller's desire for creative control, management participation, and downside protection, while the buyer seeks 80% ownership for financial consolidation. The paragraph highlights the need for effective communication and the exploration of possible arrangements that could satisfy both parties' interests.

15:07

🛠 The Process of Inventing Options in Negotiation

This paragraph introduces the concept of inventing options as a crucial part of the negotiation process. It emphasizes moving away from fixed positions and towards a collaborative creation of potential agreements that can meet the underlying interests of both parties. The script presents a labor negotiation scenario where the facilitators, Bill and Bruce, work to shift the discussion from an adversarial stance to a productive exploration of options. The importance of focusing on interests rather than positions is reiterated, and the paragraph concludes with an invitation to brainstorm options that could satisfy both the union's and management's interests.

20:08

🤔 Clarifying Interests and Generating Options

The script continues the labor negotiation example, with an emphasis on clarifying the interests of both the union and management before generating options. It identifies shared interests, such as job security and long-term investment, and suggests that understanding these can lead to the invention of mutually beneficial options. The paragraph discusses the challenges of idea generation, particularly the concern of being perceived as making commitments. It advocates for brainstorming within one's own team first to create a wide range of options without the pressure of immediate decision-making.

25:09

🔄 Addressing Job Security and Training Concerns in Negotiation

In this paragraph, the focus is on addressing specific concerns related to job security and training within the labor negotiation context. The script explores options such as enhancing retirement packages, implementing a mentor program, and providing job guarantees to alleviate fears of older workers being replaced. The importance of safeguarding the interests of both younger and older workers is highlighted, and the paragraph concludes with a discussion on how to create a well-trained and diversified workforce without compromising job security.

Keywords

💡Negotiation

Negotiation is the process of discussion and compromise between two or more parties with the aim of reaching an agreement. In the video, negotiation is the central theme, with an emphasis on transforming adversarial confrontations into collaborative problem-solving. An example from the script is the discussion on the value of negotiation skills and the comparison to athletes who continually improve their performance.

💡Adversarial Confrontation

Adversarial confrontation refers to a situation where parties in a negotiation are in opposition, often leading to deadlock. The script illustrates this with the initial radio station negotiation example, where the parties are entrenched in their positions and not effectively listening or understanding each other's perspectives.

💡Problem-Solving

Problem-solving in the context of the video is about approaching negotiations as a cooperative effort to find a solution that satisfies both parties' interests. The script suggests that negotiation should be seen as 'side-by-side problem-solving,' where both parties work together to find a mutually beneficial agreement.

💡Interests

Interests are the underlying motivations, needs, desires, concerns, and aspirations that lead parties to take certain positions in a negotiation. The script emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own interests and those of the other party to craft a solution that meets both sides' needs, as illustrated in the radio station negotiation scenario.

💡Positions

Positions are the specific demands or terms that parties state they want in a negotiation, such as a certain price or condition. The script contrasts positions with interests, showing that while positions are concrete, interests are the intangible drivers behind those positions.

💡Coaching

Coaching, in the context of the video, refers to the guidance and training that can help individuals improve their negotiation skills. The script compares negotiation skills to those of athletes, suggesting that even those with natural ability can benefit from coaching to enhance their performance.

💡Batna

Batna, which stands for 'Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement,' is the option a party would pursue if they cannot reach an agreement in the negotiation. The script introduces this concept as a key element in preparing for negotiations, as understanding one's Batna can influence the negotiation strategy and outcomes.

💡Options

Options in negotiation are potential agreements or parts of agreements that could be explored to meet the underlying interests of the parties. The script encourages the generation of multiple options to broaden the scope of possible agreements and to find creative solutions that satisfy both parties' interests.

💡Standards

Standards in the video refer to the criteria or principles used to evaluate the fairness or appropriateness of a negotiation outcome. The script discusses the importance of having a clear set of standards to ensure that parties feel they are being treated fairly and to persuade others of the fairness of the agreement.

💡People Issues

People issues encompass the interpersonal dynamics and relationships that can affect a negotiation, including trust, respect, and communication. The script touches on the importance of addressing these issues to create a more productive negotiation environment and to build relationships that can lead to better agreements.

💡Preparation

Preparation is the process of gathering information, understanding interests, and strategizing before entering into a negotiation. The script highlights the importance of effective preparation as a key determinant of success in negotiations, suggesting that much of a negotiation's outcome can be influenced by the quality of preparation.

Highlights

Introduction to the concept of negotiation as a skill that can be improved with coaching, similar to an athlete.

The importance of not just focusing on negotiation positions but understanding the underlying interests.

The metaphor of the 'Negotiation Olympics' to illustrate the high level of skill that can be achieved with practice.

The idea that negotiation is an exercise in influence and the necessity of understanding the other party's perspective.

The process of looking behind stated positions to uncover the real needs and desires of the negotiating parties.

The role of preparation in successful negotiation and how it can set the stage for a productive discussion.

An example of how understanding the interests of a radio station owner and a buyer can lead to a more creative negotiation.

The concept of 'BATNA' - Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement - and its importance in negotiation strategy.

The value of exploring a range of options before making a decision in a negotiation.

The facilitation of a labor negotiation scenario to demonstrate the process of inventing options to meet mutual interests.

The importance of brainstorming and generating multiple options without immediate commitment to any single one.

The potential for shared interests to bridge gaps between opposing positions in a negotiation.

The strategy of enhancing retirement packages as a potential option in a negotiation to address job security concerns.

The proposal of a mentor program as a way to utilize senior employees' expertise without threatening their job security.

The discussion on job guarantees as a means to protect older workers while training younger employees.

The emphasis on the importance of not shooting down ideas during the brainstorming phase to encourage a wide range of options.

The conclusion that negotiation is about satisfying interests and the need to invent options that can meet both sides' interests.

Transcripts

[Music]

welcome to getting to yes the video

workshop on negotiation in this program

Roger Fisher William ury and Bruce

Patten will show you how to transform

adversarial confrontation in to

side-by-side problem-solving hello I'm

Roger Fisher here with my colleagues

bill Yuri and there was Pat hello

welcome to the video workshop on

negotiation all of us negotiate all the

time you wouldn't be in your present

position unless you were a good

negotiator people keep asking us but

isn't negotiation natural ability not

coaching once you're good at it can't

you just relax I compared negotiation

skills with those of an athlete natural

ability is terribly important but the

more natural ability you have the more

you will benefit from coaching from

continuing to learn how to do it better

and better the professional tennis

players at Wimbledon bring their coaches

with them they keep learning to get

better all their lives

I like that athletic metaphor the

curious thing that strikes me is that if

we negotiate so much of our time with

our bosses our spouses our peers our

customers our suppliers our kids if

we're negotiating say 50 percent of our

time and some people would say ninety

percent of our time the question I have

is if you were swimming say 50 percent

of your time you'd be in the Olympics

and the question I have is as good as we

all are why aren't we all in the

negotiation Olympics and I think the

answer lies in the fact that when you

swim you always have part of your mind

focused on your stroke on improving your

stroke on improving the process of

swimming when we negotiate we have

almost all of our attention focused on

the substance on the terms and

conditions on the price well what this

videotape workshop is about is about

going over the process of negotiation so

that we can all be in the negotiation

Olympics one difficulty we often have is

that the more you negotiate the tendency

is to get better and better at less and

less when the stakes are high we focus

on our most confident skills but that

means we get better and better at a few

skills and leave others to wither

way we become one-sided not very

flexible or adaptable each of us has

room to broaden our repertoire of

negotiating skills and we're not just

going to talk about negotiation words

don't describe adequately what really

happens you're gonna be watching a lot

of different examples we're gonna be

acting in examples demonstrating what

can be done in different kinds of

negotiations mistakes people make skills

they use let's watch the first

negotiation mr. Gillam I've already told

you my position is 14 million dollars if

you want to take the station away from

me that's what it's gonna cost you mr.

Bryant

our position is eight million dollars

for your share that's eight times your

share of cash flow that's fair that's

reasonable I don't understand where

you're coming from well I get my number

14 million from what I know this station

is worth I'm the one who came in here

five years ago when it was down and out

as number three and built it into number

one I know this station and I know what

it's worth and 14 million is my share of

what it's worth that's what it's gonna

take your partners have given me

two-thirds an option on two thirds for

16 million why is one-third worth 14

million my partners have not been around

here nearly as much as I have I'm the

one who made this station I really don't

care what kind of deal they cut with you

my position is 14 million dollars

because that's what I know this station

to be worth if you want to take it away

from me

that's what it's gonna cost eight

million is our position Mr Bryan

that's been taken or leave it well 14

million is my position and that's a

take-it-or-leave-it

does that negotiating process look

familiar

adversarial deadlocked telling each

other not listening very well not trying

to understand where the other side is

coming from not treating the people with

a whole lot of respect there's a chance

in negotiation to do it differently we

believe that negotiation would be better

off if you can treat it as side by side

problem-solving both parties share a

problem they think that a negotiated

agreement would be better for both

that no agreement and they share the

problem of trying to find an agreement

that both can live with and a good

agreement one that doesn't leave

potential joint gains on the table this

whole video is a way of helping you

prepare for negotiations a way to think

about it an organized way and a way to

realize that in advance of negotiation

you can do a great deal that will affect

the total outcome you'll thought about

where you're gonna end up and therefore

you know where to begin in other words

we want you to have always part of your

mind focused on the process of

negotiation before you go into the

negotiation during the negotiation and

then taking also a few minutes after the

negotiation to ask yourself what went

right here what went wrong

what could I do differently next time

what surprised me so that you're

learning from each negotiation because

you have so much rich experience that if

you can tap that experience and turn it

into better and better skills you will

end up as I mentioned in the negotiation

Olympics a point we're gonna make

throughout this workshop this video is

to give you a big structure the basic

building blocks of negotiation what they

are interests what do you really care

about what did they care about options

what are some possible agreements we

could have let's get the range of what

we could agree upon standards how can I

persuade them they're being fairly

treated how can they persuade me how can

I persuade myself that I'm being fairly

treated not being ripped off people how

do you deal with the people issues in

negotiation and Batna what is your best

alternative to a negotiated agreement if

you can't settle let's begin with

segment 1 interests

segment one interests all too often we

approach a negotiation like that radio

station owner and the buyer almost as if

we were two armies approaching each

other from opposite sides of a

battlefield we dig into our positions 14

million dollars eight million dollars we

build trenches fortifications no one's

going to move each side knowing full

well that we're gonna have to somehow

dig ourselves out of our positions if

we're going to get anywhere near the

middle and so what we do is we dig

ourselves out and we move about ten feet

and then we dig ourselves in again

I've often wonder why people go through

that exercise when the purpose of

negotiation is not so much to meet your

position it's to satisfy your underlying

interests and that's perhaps the key

distinction and negotiation is the

distinction between what your position

is and what your interests are your

position are the things that you say you

want the concrete things you demand

terms and conditions' dollars and cents

fourteen million dollars eight million

dollars your interests are the

underlying motivations the intangible

motivations that lead you to take those

positions your underlying needs your

desires your concerns your fears your

aspirations

those are your interests in any

negotiation you want to understand your

interests just as important as

understanding your interests is

understanding the other side's think

about it for a moment what is

negotiation negotiation is an exercise

in influence you're trying to change

someone else's mind now if you're trying

to change someone else's mind the first

thing you need to know is where their

mind is right now you need to be able to

put yourself in their shoes that is

perhaps a single most important skill

negotiation is the ability to put

yourself in the other person's shoes see

the world the way they see it see what

drives them see what motivates them so

that you can craft a solution that meets

their interests and meets yours the best

way to understand the process of getting

behind positions for the underlying

interests is to see it in action let's

return to the radio station negotiation

and watch Roger prepare the potential

buyer for a second meeting with the

owner of that station

Roger that the guy's a mule he wants 14

million

dollars for his share that's all he

wants to talk about I can't reach him I

don't know what's going on with it what

do you want what's the company one here

that company what's what's what's the

purpose of this negotiation from your

point of view the company wants the

station it's a good station we'd like to

buy it it would fit nicely it's got some

profits we could offset against some

losses you told me you've already got an

option of two-thirds of the station from

the other owner yeah I've got a have 80%

of the station before I can put the

losses in the profits together I can't

do it without 80% you need 80% of the

station 80% and when you get the station

what do you want a bit

what do you can do with it well it's a

good station there's no real sense in

Chaney I'd like to have a good

transition one that doesn't look like

we've taken over the station what keep

the talent want to keep the management

generally make no waves and the pendant

market what I'm doing here is looking

behind the company's position eight

million dollars and a radio station is

positioned 14 million dollars for the

underlying interests the concerns that

lie behind that I'm trying to find out

what mr. Gillam wants what kinds of

things he needs not just once but what

he really needs to satisfy his concerns

and then we'll look at the other side

the station owner needs so you need 80%

ownership in order to have the

consolidate the books that's the number

and on the operation of the station what

do you need there what do you want there

well I'd like to have a good operation a

good smooth operation basically what

it's been doing let's go talk to him and

see we can find out what his concerns

are lots a lot you've just seen the most

important part of a negotiation which is

the preparation most negotiations are

won or lost done well or done poorly

even before the negotiators get to the

table simply in the quality of

preparation that they bring to that

table

you can't wing it in negotiation you put

yourself an enormous disadvantage if you

do that let's watch Roger Fisher use the

value of effective preparation to

negotiate on behalf of the buyer

mr. Brian what do you really want out of

this situation as I've said I want 14

million dollars I made that very clear

what would you do with the money if you

had it well I don't think that's really

any of your business fair enough and I

want to understand what you care about

because if we're gonna make a deal it's

only with your agreement it's only a

deal you want what do you want in this

space what I care about is this station

this is more than just a job for me it's

something that I thoroughly enjoy I

built from the ground up I feel like I'd

be selling one of my children in talking

to us to kill him I discovered that what

his company really wants in owning the

station they want to own enough of the

station so they can consolidate their

books with the other stations that

you've got the number of other radio

stations that means we have to have half

have 80% 80% ownership not 100% no I

need 80% but I gotta have 80% and the

two thirds you have an option I was not

enough no I got a share see the fact it

doesn't eat at all makes me think there

may be some possibility of arrangement

here which leaves you with the station

well at 80% of something new I didn't

hear that the first time but no he

wanted buy a station 66% wouldn't know

but what do you would that meet some of

your concerns well it not really because

suppose I continue as an owner in a

minority position sure that's where I am

now but what I have created control and

for that what's that mean creative

control what do I do you do that you

actually decide what programs I decide

what programs more importantly I decide

the overall format creative control what

else do you like I like the ability to

manage the station I like the ability to

participate in its growth we got a

management participation does your

company object to such things and other

stations Roger it sounds like to me he

wants the world he wants a ton of money

he wants creative control he wants

management he wants the little 10-yards

we're looking to what his interests are

what are your wrenches you have no

interest in changing management not per

se I had some concerns

one of their well uh I'm not sure that

mr. Bryant and my company get along he's

just said you know how big companies

operate if we don't get along at this

station goes in their numbers I've got

the risk

well what woody wouldn't you meet an

interest there in protection against

downside the station starts losing money

or not not doing well he wants some kind

of downside protection yes I need down

protection and you wouldn't mind his

getting a piece of the action going up

if it goes well well you know again I'd

have to work with him to find out you

know how he's gonna run this place and I

get comfortable with him right now we're

not doing too well oh why are you doing

fine you're disagreeing about money but

we got let's come back up to the money

question if you bought out half mr.

Bryant's interest right now you were

offering eight million dollars at eight

times cash flow for his share half of

that would be four million dollars eight

times suppose we split the difference

between us I'm just not asking for

commitments now I'm just trying to think

a little bit four and a half million

would be 9 times cashflow for a share of

interest and you're not taking a station

away from you you would as I see this

thing you'd still be the station manager

to your station you're still running it

you've got here an owner of it but for

how long I mean I we've talked about

different kinds of contracts and maybe

some of those would work there might be

different triggers in there you want a

long-term I want a long-term and you I'd

like to have a short as possible why uh

unknown to me you know we've we've got

some risk in him like putting up a ton

of money he's run the station for five

years well you know that track record

the radio stations initial position as

you'll recall was fourteen million

dollars but as a negotiation unfolds you

begin to see what his underlying

interests are he's interested in

continuing to be manager of the station

he wants to remain as an owner of the

station he wants a good price he wants

the ability to make more if the station

does well and he wants to stay in the

community that's the central point

looking behind positions for what are

the underlying interest

asking why asking why not and putting

yourself in the other person's shoes

those are the main points we want to

leave you with at the end of the segment

the purpose of negotiation is to satisfy

your interest and the other side's

interest too now the reason you spend so

much time

probing behind positions for what are

the underlying interests is to be able

to invent options that satisfy both

sides interests in the next segment

we're going to look at exactly how you

go about the process of inventing those

options from mutual game

segment two options focusing on

positions not only conceals underlying

interests positions tend to limit the

ways of meeting those interests an

important negotiation activity is to

invent various ways in which the

underlying interest might be met if I

want to buy a building I'll say my

interest really is using it should I

lease it might I read it with an option

to buy might be a long term lease or a

short term lease might I rent part of it

might we jointly own it you want to

think of a wide variety of ways of

serving those underlying interests when

we say option we mean a possible

agreement or a part of a possible

agreement some thing you might do it

could be included in agreement it could

be a whole framework but it's not a

commitment it's not a promise we're

exploring what we could do it's

brainstorming its generating things that

might be included in the outcome of this

negotiation a major feature of

negotiation is to explore possible

agreements bits and pieces of agreements

to invent a range of options of what

could serve our mutual interests before

making any decision in this next

situation we have a labor negotiation

bill and Bruce have been retained by the

two sides to help facilitate the process

to change them from the rut they're

locked into into a more constructive

activity of generating options Frank you

and I have been working together for how

long more years and I care to talk about

and yet on all that period of time of

our bargaining you haven't heard a thing

I've said apparently for you to come to

us with this proposal is to undermine

the very foundation of our union we

believe in seniority you know that as a

union seniority is one of our bedrocks

and yet you come to us with something

that jeopardizes the seniority of our

men and women I don't understand you

expect me to go back to my people and

say we're gonna start training people at

the age of 55 15 80 to 60 people who are

gonna retire in a couple of months do

you connect us to go back to our people

who have been on the job for 20 or 30

years and tell them we want them to have

a younger person leapfrog over them from

paying jobs more training we're aware of

your seniority rules but we have to find

something when the parameters of our

living I mean you're asking us to go in

and say to 30 year old people who are

just starting their career in our

industries say okay we're gonna forget

about you

we're gonna train your father and your

grandfather and that's what the Union

expecting to be long-term players

expecting to be trained along the way

the only way they're gonna be long-term

players is if we're still in business

and the way we're gonna stay in business

is to stay competitive and you know we

do they support you guys every year you

know you don't have the money to do this

you don't have the money to do that you

told us five years ago you didn't have

the money to do the training now you've

got the money to do the training but you

don't want to train the older workers I

get the sense that you've gone over this

before you've talked about this before

yeah yeah it's impressive really I mean

I almost have the sense that you could

go on forever well in the past that

maybe I think I'm not sure that's the

best way for us to spend our time here I

don't know if we're gonna spend nine

months and you know get anywhere in fact

there are two ways to talk about an

issue like retraining or any issue for

that right the first is you can talk at

each other you also have the choice of

talking with each other you can decide

to focus on the past or you can choose

to focus on the future

you can try and talk about who's right

decide that issue or you can try and

talk about what are you gonna do about

it what's to be done

you can blame each other or you can

jointly tackle the problem you can try

and score points at each other or you

can clarify your interests and try and

invent some options now if I were to ask

you in the last 20 minutes talking about

this issue where have you spent your

time on this side of the line or that

center line self-evident this way has

produced two options for you rigid

seniority and management discretion

before taking any decisions you want to

have as many options on the table as

possible now in order to invent options

we need to back up and clarify the

interests that those options need to

serve now let's take a look at interest

on the Union side we've got interest in

maintaining job security rewarding

loyalty upholding precedents and

satisfying constituents on the

management side we've identified

efficient use of resources flexibility

on the shop floor satisfying the board

and investing for long term as you look

at these interests you see any shared

interests any overlap among these

interests you see me well I think we

have to admit as a union that the

company over the years has been very

fair to the employees certainly we don't

agree with some of the things they have

done but they have tried to be fair with

us well I think we also have an interest

in this investment for the long term

we'd also like to have a well skilled

workforce now what's interesting is

before you had two positions seniority

company discretion but if you unpacked

the underlying interests it looks like

there are some shared interests here it

looks like you might be able to invent

an option here to have as many options

as possible so as then to make the

decision so can we spend some time

talking about some other possible

options that could meet both sides

interests in this situation the bill is

the president of this Union I have

difficulty with that we need to caucus

ourselves before we get into anything

like that ok what I'm talking about is

no commitment there's no commitment on

both sides we're just talking about

inventing options no one's asking about

making a decision here at the table and

if you feel more comfortable about it we

could do that separately the union could

go off by themselves you could stay

right here and I'll help you invent some

possible options you could then decide

which ones you want to talk about with

the other side although there's still no

decision management could do the same we

get back together talk about it but

remember at this phase there's no

decision being made all we're trying to

do is put out some possible law firm so

you can make the best possible decision

this union will be committed and the

Union won't be committed no will

management normal management that's

right

I'll try ok and remember your mandate

here is to come up with options that

satisfy your interests but also you

think the other side could live with two

options satisfy both sides interest with

no commitment whatsoever no attribution

no commit notice how bill and Bruce

backed up to clarify the interests of

the parties before working on the

inventing

those options that are designed to meet

them mister Warren's concern with

inventing in front of the other side is

serious and a real a real concern a

justified concern but people often

understand in ideas and idea which

you're committed so if you say how about

this the other side may say I accept so

it's quite important to make it very

clear that you're not making commitments

and it's much easier to invent first in

your own team on your own side generate

ideas free from any concern of what the

commitments are even there and within

your own team it is hard to withhold

judgment we tend to think the purpose of

any meeting is to agree so when someone

puts up an idea we don't like we often

shoot it down but if we want a wide

range of ideas the purpose is to broaden

range of possibilities broaden the scope

and not just look for the best one the

best one will be selected after we've

got a lot of ideas on the table other

options we could somehow enhance the

retirement package some of these people

might volunteer to do some sort of early

retirement okay

what about some other options why not

try some kind of a mentor program I'm

gonna really utilize some of these

senior people without making them feel

like they're absolutely I'm not sure how

some of my guys might feel about that

okay remember Frank we're just trying to

get as many ideas as you can no

criticism let's just take a look at this

mentor program yeah tell us a little

more about what we pair up senior

employees will be less senior employees

have them work together for three months

say per department and then maybe change

so they get different perspectives I

think that would give us a

well-diversified well-trained staff you

know in our last sub consul meeting your

group said to us that they are very

concerned about job security and if we

go on some of these I think it endangers

their job security I there's got to be a

solution to that right can you think of

any way to improve on that you know you

know what what really would satisfy them

is to give them some job guarantees okay

you know right now I think what worries

we're talking about training younger

people and our fear is of course once

they're trained then they come to the 55

60 65 year old guy and say hey buddy we

don't need you any longer so we need

some kind of if we is willing to

guarantee those people while we take a

look so wait so what I hear you saying

out is that if retraining means getting

rid of some of the older people that's

one thing if retraining means enhancing

the job skills or the younger people but

not but safeguarding the jobs the older

people that's something you would