The Pioneer of "Emotional Intelligence" Daniel Goleman on a Balanced Life
Summary
TLDRIn this insightful discussion, Daniel Goldman explores the concept of achieving and sustaining excellence in daily life, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence. He outlines techniques for enhancing self-awareness, managing emotions, and fostering empathy—key components for personal and professional success. Goldman argues that emotional intelligence is not only learnable but can improve with age, and he advocates for its cultivation in younger generations through social-emotional learning. The conversation also touches on the role of AI in understanding and responding to human emotions, suggesting that while AI can mimic emotional language, genuine empathy requires a human touch.
Takeaways
- 🌟 Optimal performance is about having a really good day at work, characterized by engagement, productivity, and a sense of accomplishment.
- 💡 Emotional intelligence is crucial for personal and professional success, consisting of self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and relationship management.
- 🧠 Self-awareness involves understanding your emotions and how they shape your thoughts and actions. It is the foundation of emotional intelligence.
- 🛌 Practicing mindfulness can enhance self-awareness and focus. A simple exercise involves focusing on your breath and gently redirecting your attention when your mind wanders.
- 🚫 Negative self-talk can be destructive. Reframing your thoughts to focus on learning and positive aspects can improve self-management and resilience.
- 💭 Empathy is not just understanding others' emotions but also caring about them. It is essential for building strong relationships and fostering a supportive environment.
- 🌐 The shift to remote work and digital communication has reduced natural social interactions, impacting emotional intelligence and empathy in the workplace.
- 📈 Organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence by integrating it into their culture, selection processes, performance reviews, and offering ongoing training programs.
- 🌍 Addressing global issues like climate change requires emotional intelligence to channel feelings of anger and anxiety into positive, focused action.
- 👴 Emotional intelligence tends to improve with age, making the退休 life a valuable time for personal growth and contribution to others.
- 📚 Daniel Goldman emphasizes the importance of modeling emotional intelligence and focusing on one task at a time to achieve optimal performance.
Q & A
What is the concept of 'optimal day' as discussed in the transcript?
-The concept of 'optimal day' refers to a day where one feels good and performs well, achieving a state of excellence in their activities. This includes being engaged, productive, solving problems, and connecting with others. It's about having a good day at work or in life, rather than striving for a perfect or stress-inducing standard of excellence.
How does the guest define 'emotional intelligence'?
-Emotional intelligence is defined as having four key components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and managing relationships. Self-awareness involves understanding one's feelings and how they influence thoughts and actions. Managing emotions is about being resilient and not letting negative emotions overwhelm you. Empathy is understanding and resonating with others' feelings, and the final component is effectively managing relationships.
What is the significance of 'somatic markers' in achieving an optimal state?
-Somatic markers refer to the gut feelings or intuitive sense of whether something feels right or wrong. These markers are crucial for staying on track and assessing whether our actions are helpful or not. They are stored in parts of the brain that don't think in words, but are connected to our emotional responses, providing a non-verbal guide to our decision-making.
How does the guest suggest improving self-awareness?
-The guest suggests improving self-awareness through mindfulness techniques that essentially train attention. One simple exercise involves focusing on one's breath, noticing when the mind wanders, and gently bringing the focus back to the breath. This practice strengthens the neural circuitry for focus and helps in becoming absorbed in what one is doing.
What is the role of 'self-talk' in emotional intelligence?
-Self-talk refers to the internal monologue that runs through our heads. If this self-talk is critical or negative, it can be destructive. However, by reframing our self-talk to focus on learning from experiences and recognizing what we do right, we can improve our emotional intelligence. This involves being aware of our self-talk and consciously choosing to focus on positive aspects rather than dwelling on negatives.
How does the concept of 'grit' relate to achieving excellence?
-Grit is the persistence and determination to keep moving towards a larger goal despite daily distractions and challenges. It is an essential component of self-management and is crucial for achieving excellence. Grit helps individuals maintain their focus on their goals and make consistent progress, even when faced with obstacles.
What is the importance of 'empathic concern' in emotional intelligence?
-Empathic concern is the feeling of care and concern for others. It goes beyond understanding and resonating with others' emotions (emotional empathy) to actually caring about their well-being. This type of empathy is particularly important in close relationships and is a critical aspect of emotional intelligence that AI, which lacks emotions, cannot replicate.
How does the guest suggest organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence among their leaders?
-Organizations can cultivate emotional intelligence by having a visible champion from the business side, embedding emotional intelligence into the performance review process, and offering ongoing training programs. These practices help to integrate emotional intelligence into the company culture and ensure it is valued and practiced at all levels.
What are the guest's thoughts on the impact of remote work on emotional intelligence and empathy?
-The guest believes that remote work can diminish naturally occurring opportunities for empathy and connection, as fewer people are spending time physically with their co-workers. This can lead to a more transactional and less empathetic work environment. To compensate, individuals should make an effort to reach out and connect with colleagues beyond work situations, focusing on personal rather than just professional aspects of their lives.
How does the guest propose dealing with large societal issues like climate change that cause anxiety?
-The guest suggests using emotional intelligence to channel feelings of anger and anxiety into positive actions. For example, anger towards corruption or social issues can be focused into motivation for positive change. In the case of anxiety about climate change, the guest advocates using the current economic system to promote transparency and improvements in how companies operate, potentially lowering the environmental impact over time.
What is the guest's advice for individuals who feel hesitant to be open and honest at work due to fear of repercussions?
-The guest advises individuals to take control of their inner life and not let external circumstances dictate how they feel. He references the Serenity Prayer, emphasizing the importance of focusing on what one can control and letting go of what one cannot change.
Outlines
🌟 Introduction to Optimal Living
The conversation begins with an introduction to the concept of 'optimal living' and its relation to daily excellence. The guest, Daniel Goldman, discusses the misconceptions around striving for excellence and how it can be achieved through engagement, productivity, and positive interactions at work. The idea extends to optimal life, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence and its four key components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and relationship management. The discussion also touches on the relevance of these concepts in the current digital and post-covid world, where loneliness and isolation are prevalent issues.
🧠 Emotional Intelligence: Definition and Evolution
This paragraph delves into the specifics of emotional intelligence, breaking it down into its core components: self-awareness, managing emotions, empathy, and relationship management. It discusses how emotional intelligence has evolved since its inception, with various models emerging that agree on these core components. The conversation also explores the impact of emotional intelligence on personal and professional life, and how it has become a critical factor in leadership and management roles.
💡 The Optimal State vs Flow State
The discussion distinguishes between the optimal state and the flow state, explaining that while flow is a rare and unpredictable peak performance experience, the optimal state is a more attainable and consistent state of being. The paragraph emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and mindfulness techniques to achieve this optimal state, which involves being fully engaged and committed to the task at hand. Practical advice on how to train the mind to maintain focus and refocus when distracted is provided.
🌈 Cultivating Empathy and Emotional Intelligence
This section focuses on the cultivation of empathy and emotional intelligence, particularly in the workplace. It highlights the importance of understanding and managing one's own emotions, as well as empathizing with others. The conversation points out that while AI can mimic the language of empathy, it lacks the genuine emotional connection that humans can provide. The discussion also touches on the role of empathy in maintaining positive interpersonal relationships and the challenges posed by remote work and digital communication.
🛠️ Enhancing Emotional Intelligence and Leadership
The conversation explores strategies for enhancing emotional intelligence, especially in leadership roles. It emphasizes the need for organizations to foster a culture of emotional intelligence through visible champions, performance reviews that include emotional intelligence metrics, and ongoing training programs. The impact of emotional intelligence on employee engagement, job satisfaction, and overall business performance is discussed, with examples of companies that have successfully integrated emotional intelligence into their culture.
🌍 Broader Implications of Emotional Intelligence
The discussion moves beyond the individual and organizational levels to consider the broader societal implications of emotional intelligence. It addresses the role of emotional intelligence in addressing global issues such as climate change and political corruption, and how individuals can use their understanding of emotional intelligence to channel their concerns into positive action. The conversation also touches on the potential of emotional intelligence to reduce violence and improve the world.
📚 Spreading the Word on Optimal Living
The final paragraph discusses ways to spread the concept of optimal living and emotional intelligence. It emphasizes the power of modeling these qualities and the importance of starting with small, manageable steps, such as the breath focus exercise. The conversation also addresses questions about applying emotional intelligence in various life situations, including retirement, dealing with work-related fears, and the unique challenges of living with autism or PTSD.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Optimal Performance
💡Emotional Intelligence
💡Self-Awareness
💡Empathy
💡Mindfulness
💡Resilience
💡Self-Management
💡Grit
💡Engagement
💡Optimal Life
Highlights
The concept of 'optimal day' is defined as having a really good day at work, being engaged, productive, and solving problems.
Excellence is not about being perfect, but about doing your best and feeling good about your work and interactions.
Emotional intelligence is crucial for optimal performance and is composed of self-awareness, self-management, empathy, and relationship management.
Self-awareness involves understanding your feelings and how they shape your thoughts and actions.
Self-management is about not letting negative emotions overwhelm you and maintaining resilience.
Empathy is not just understanding others' thoughts but also resonating with their emotions and caring about their well-being.
Organizations can foster emotional intelligence by having visible champions, embedding it in performance reviews, and offering training programs.
Emotional intelligence can improve with age as people mature and become more balanced.
AI can mimic the language of empathy but may lack the emotional resonance that humans naturally possess.
Individuals can enhance their emotional intelligence through practices like mindfulness and focusing on their breath.
The ability to pause and inhibit knee-jerk reactions is a key component of emotional intelligence and can be developed through cognitive control exercises.
Emotional intelligence can help individuals manage feelings of anger and anxiety regarding large-scale issues like climate change and corruption.
Cultivating emotional intelligence in younger generations can be achieved through social-emotional learning programs.
Emotional intelligence is not just about staying calm but also recognizing when a certain level of stress can be beneficial for performance.
Multitasking is a myth as the brain can only focus on one task at a time, and improving attention can help manage distractions.
The importance of feedback in developing empathy and understanding others' emotions is emphasized.
The impact of remote work and digital communication on emotional intelligence and workplace relationships is discussed.
The idea of 'optimal living' is explored as a way to reduce violence and improve societal interactions.
The balance between being open and honest at work while managing the fear of potential negative consequences is addressed.
The role of emotional intelligence in recruitment and hiring processes is questioned, highlighting the challenges AI may face in this area.
Transcripts
[Music]
So Daniel Goldman thank you very much
indeed for joining us honor it's my
pleasure thank you can I start by asking
you about this title optimal but more
how to sustain Excellence every day
people's immediate reaction to that
might be that it sounds quite a
stressful goal um Excellence every day
you know is something that many of us
perhaps just think sounds much too much
of an effort to
sustain you know actually
um if you think of Excellence as your
very best performance
ever the time you were in flow for
example I think it is too high a
standard what we're talking about as
Excellence is having a really good day
at work for example uh being very
engaged being absorbed in what you're
doing being very productive having uh
small winds toward a larger goal solving
problems that come up connecting with
the people around you and feeling good
uh that's uh that's what you might call
having a good day and I think that's a
more reasonable goal that's what we mean
by excellence and is that what you mean
to Define by Optimal that word the word
optimal um is a handy way of talking
about such a a day and the data for it
comes actually from Harvard Business
School from a study where hundreds of
men and women were at asked to keep a
log a journal of how they felt that day
how things went how productive they were
how they solved problems what they call
small winds toward a larger goal and the
composite portrait that emerged was of
an optimal day feeling good and doing
well so you've you've mentioned a day uh
here you you've talked about a day where
you do everything to your idea of
Excellence to your optimal but
presumably if the goal is to have an
optimal day it's also to have an optimal
life in doing
so I suppose you could extend it and I
think that it's a a natural impulse to
do that so if you know how how to be
engaged how to pay attention how to
empathize with other people the people
in your life the people you care about I
think that it would extend to your life
generally absolutely so who who then is
this book
for anybody everybody I think so yeah
and I think it's important to ask as you
ask in the book and you both question
why now why this Theory now the theory
of seeking an optimal day an optimal
life um is it something that coincides
with the world in which we're living
increased digitization perhaps a postco
world in which we work in very different
ways you know uh surveys show that
loneliness for example is higher than
ever uh people feel more isolated I
don't know about in the UK but I have
many friends here who work say two days
a week in the office instead of five and
there's a lot of zooming and
transactional uh in you know interplay
but what we've lost is the kind of easy
socializing that happened when we were
seeing friends more often when we were
at work uh with our workmates because
you got to know people in a way that I
think doesn't occur so uh I think it's
in that context Reinhold neber made a
very important distinction it was
between the things in our lives that we
can change and the courage to do that
and the things that we can change that
we have to put up with and many of us
have to put up with an existence whether
it's at work or in the conditions of our
life uh which aren't optimal but we can
do the best we can within that and
that's what we're encouraging people to
do to take control not to let the
circumstance of your work life or your
life generally dictate how you feel but
to be more active more proactive in
terms of uh being sure to do the best
that you can internally that will show
itself
externally yes I mean and there's so it
is such a it is a book full of practical
tips and advice H and nothing is forever
if you think listening that you're not a
certain person and you can't can't be a
certain way you show us that actually
everything is flexible and malleable in
our characters so let I mean just before
we move on to that advice there are just
I think some clarifications that you
make at the start of the book and
perhaps most importantly is how this
links with emotional intelligence which
it does um how how o obviously um how
optimal and living in the way you
advocate making every day uh feel a
success links in with the capacity for
an emotional for emotional
intelligence well let's talk about first
what emotional intelligence is a good
place to start me uh there are four
parts the first is self-awareness
knowing what you're feeling often we
don't even pay attention to what we're
feeling knowing how those feelings uh
shape your perception your thinking
your impulse to act uh that's emotional
self-awareness and I think is very
important it's the Keystone in emotional
intelligence from that you can then
manage your emotions better and by
manage emotions I don't mean control or
subdue emotions are important messages
they're telling us what uh what's going
on in our life but if our emotions are
upsetting us if we're waking up at 2 in
the morning and ruminating about them
then they're out of control and we may
want to manage them better be more
resilient actually resilience means uh
the time it takes to go you go from Peak
upset to back to calm and clear and not
only uh the second part of emotional
intelligence is about how we manage
emotions it's not just the rocky
emotions it's also uh keeping in touch
with our sense of meaning and purpose
what matters to us what motivates us
what our real goals are in life not
being distracted from them the third
part of emotional intelligence is
empathy uh understanding how the other
person thinks about things the language
they use uh by the way AI would be very
good at that uh but then something AI
don't think would be good at it's
resonating with people emotionally
knowing how that person feels because
you feel it too and then the third part
is really important that's car ing it's
called empathic concern it's like a
parents love for a child you care about
the person you not only know how they
think and feel and then the fourth part
is putting that all together in managing
relationships well effectively
harmoniously or settling differences for
example so that's what emotional
intelligence is and the data that we
have uh shows that for example when a
company looks through its lens at
emotional intelligence one of the things
it values and employs is what they call
engagement well actually being absorbed
being involved that's one of the
components of that good day it turns out
as we show in the book that uh from uh a
an organization's point of view that
good day that we feel is what they want
and it correlates very highly with
emotional
intelligence can I ask uh from your
perspective how you feel the idea of
emotional intelligence has changed since
it first came into common pance because
of course you say in the book um that
there are of many controversies now over
you know what it means within the field
because it is so widely used and of
course the similarities as you've just
laid out but how has it changed or how
has Society changed because of
it well you know those are two very big
questions let me answer the first how
has emotional intelligence change when I
wrote the book uh emotional intelligence
was very little direct research in fact
it was a brand new idea since that idea
became very widespread there are many
many different models of emotional
intelligence uh most of them agree on
those four parts but how they fill in
those parts is very different yeah so I
would say one of the big changes is that
uh there different schools of thought on
emotional intelligence just as by the
way there different schools of thought
on IQ which has been around for more
than a hundred years emotional
intelligence is a relatively new
idea we wrote this book now uh my
co-author Carrie chernes and I uh were
co-directors of a research Consortium on
emotional intelligence we wrote the book
now because now there's a critical mass
of data showing that uh this helps
people in their Liv lives it helps them
at work it helps managers and leaders be
the kind of boss you love instead of the
kind of Boss You Hate by the way I've
asked I've asked organizations and and
groups around the world tell me about a
boss you loved and a boss you hated and
it doesn't matter where you ask the
answer is I want an emotionally
intelligent boss I don't want one who's
tuned out who doesn't care who's aloof
uh and people leave Bad Bosses so
one of the ways uh I think that bad
bosses are hurting organizations and
businesses is by pressuring people to
get results instead of inspiring them
and motivating them to get those results
so this means that people are burning
out when they shouldn't be and they're
the best people are more likely to quit
so anyway I think I'm rambling why
didn't you direct me again yeah no
you're not rambling at all and I as you
say I asked very big questions two of of
them but how it's changed um emotional
intelligence since it came first came
into being we get a sense of and I mean
when I listen to you say that the
immediate question which I expect you
get asked a huge amount which you don't
necessarily address you know um head on
in the book but is are are women
generally better at um generally more
emotionally intelligent than men or is
there no gender divide in your
research you know when you talk about
gender differences in Behavior you're
talking about two largely overlapping
belt curves so women generally tend to
do much better than men uh on uh
elements like
um empathy we talk to girls about
relationships we talk to boys about
things generally so they're socialized
differently in our culture uh women tend
to score better on tests of emotional
intelligence uh than men do
but uh this is largely because of
women's social skills which are better
than men's generally but it doesn't mean
that any given man couldn't be as good
as any given woman on social skill and
men tend to be better for example than
women on handling upsetting emotions but
it doesn't mean that any woman any given
woman couldn't be as good as any man at
handling those
emotions and you talk a lot uh in the
book about how to differentiate and why
it's important diff to differentiate
between the type of
Engagement that you're trying to teach
your readers how to um learn and another
thing that is talked about more and more
and I'm sure our howto Academy listeners
uh and viewers will know about Flow
State but it's important isn't it to Def
differentiate between what you're
advocating and hoping to bring into
people's lives it's very different from
Flow State which is often something very
hard to grasp and you can't predict when
it's
coming well yes so flow is that one time
you outdid yourself at whatever matters
to you and it it's uh not something you
can predict it just happens to us and
it's wonderful but it's very rare so uh
we argue that it's not helpful to expect
to be in flow uh any given day that it's
better to
uh try for what we call the optimal
range which is below flow but still very
good uh and it's something you can do
something you can get better at or you
can there are ways and I hope we'll talk
about how to do how to get into that
optimal State let's talk about that then
so the ways in which we do that are very
much in sync with the ideas of emotional
intelligence the the pillars that you've
outlined mind and the first way that you
encourage and advise people to to help
help get into the optimal zone is
through what you described as
self-awareness it's the personal that we
address first if I'm right H and one of
those important key pillars of that is
self-awareness so could you explain what
self-awareness as you describe it looks
like and and why it's so important and
then we can go into your self-awareness
helpers well uh you can say it's
self-awareness I think of it as Focus
which is an aspect that's like applied
self-awareness the question is uh what's
on your mind right now you know when
they did research at Harvard where they
uh gave people an app that rang them at
random times of day and asked what are
you doing now and what are you thinking
about people were actually distracted
about 50% of the time up to 90% at work
meaning you're thinking about something
else so what the first uh Avenue We
Believe into an optimal state is to pay
full attention there are many so-called
mindfulness techniques now that are
popular actually they're really
attention training when you get used to
or train your mind to notice when you're
distracted and bring it back to a point
of focus that is an extremely valuable
skill and it means you can become
absorbed in what you're doing right now
now and we find that that is a key to
getting into your optimal State because
it means you're fully engaged you're
fully committed you're fully involved in
what you're doing and the rest of it
comes as a
concomitant so perhaps you could give us
some tips as you do about how to do that
how how do we uh you know attention
train how do we um put things into our
lives so that we become absorbed so that
we're aware which is what you're talking
about so consistently so that we're
aware when our thoughts drift and we
know how to refocus our attention well
you know the the good thing here is that
the brain operates the same way your
muscles do you know when you go to the
gym every time you do a rep with a a
weight a repetition you're making that
muscle that much stronger it's the same
with our minds that every time you bring
your mind back from being distracted
you're making the neural circuitry for
uh Focus stronger so there's a simple
exercise uh you can do it anywhere any
time I recommend doing it maybe 5 10
minutes whatever you can afford before
you go to work for example before you
start your day and you might you can do
it this way you pay full attention to
your in breath and to your out breath
and the space between the breath and
again with the next breath and then when
you know notice your mind has wandered
off and it will I guarantee when you
notice it's wandered you bring it back
to your breath that is the mental
repetition that builds the neural skill
of paying full attention to what matters
right now and you want to bring that
with you to work or whatever matters to
you during the
day so on a practical level perhaps I
could ask your recommendation is that
that's a practice you you compared this
to ex exercise that is the similar
similar thing to going for a run in the
morning or or doing your weights and
that sustains you throughout the optimal
day it isn't that every time should you
know should you repeat that through the
day or is that an exercise a training
how do you draw on that when you need it
well you know you go to the gym once a
day I would suggest you try this because
what you're doing is building mental
Fitness and it happens gradually it
happens slowly you're not going to have
a magical first day I did this uh it was
better it's going to happen slowly and
if you work at it steadily so I
recommend starting with five minutes and
extending it to whatever is comfortable
for you whatever you make time for in
your day but make it a priority the same
way you make your physical exercise a
priority uh and this is going to help
you at work just as getting physically
fit helps you through the day this
mental Fitness will help you pay more
attention to what you need to be doing
right now you also talk about a very
important aspect of this which is um
checking your selft talk I've actually
spoken to a lot of people about this
recently it feels like a very um worthy
recurring theme in some of the
interviews I've been doing lately I was
interviewing a a psychoanalyst talking
about this very small number of words we
used to criticize ourself and he said
it's an actual a front to our
intelligence how can we do something
about that it's very important that we
do so your selft talk refers to that
ongoing monologue we all have inside our
our head and when that selft talk is
critical of something you did or about
to do or your abilities generally it's
very destructive uh as any therapist
will tell you and so uh you can reframe
your life you can reframe your
performance and say instead of what did
I do wrong what can I learn from what
happened to do better and what do I do
right in other words look at what's
working not just focusing on what's not
working you also talk in the book about
um the added VA value of self-awareness
a sort of SE second application of
self-awareness further than what we're
discussing and I perhaps you could
explain
that say a little more Hana I don't you
talk about the second application
sensing the subtle Sensations that tell
us whether what we're doing gives us the
feeling of opt optimal state or not you
say think again about the estimate as
you discuss um by the McKenzie
Consultants being optimal State can
result in feeling we are as much as five
times more effective as we are in our
usual state well yes there there two
elements here one is tuning into what
the neurologist Antonio damasio calls
somatic markers yes I found that
fascinating a gut feeling gut feeling uh
because it turns out that our life
experience is stored in a part of the
brain that has no direct access to uh
the part of the brain that thinks in
words it has lots of connection to the
to our GI tract as you say gut feeling
so does it feel right or does it it feel
wrong uh this is really important for
staying on track and also for seeing uh
is what we're doing helpful or
not so each one of your points I feel we
could probably spend an hour on and and
very happily have at least four hours
discussing this but in the interest of
time um you also talk about Beyond
self-awareness again on the personal
front you talk about
self-management and what does
self-manage this is where you talk about
the ability to uh manage yourself to
have strength and
self-control what does self-management
look like and how does that help us to
have an optimal day and an optimal life
let me clear up one common misconception
which is that self-management doesn't
mean no emotion it means appreciating
emotion and being aware of when emotion
for example sadness or anxiety or anger
is overwhelming and being resilient we
can't determine what we're going to feel
when we're going to feel it how strongly
we're going to feel it but once we have
a feeling we have a choice point which
is are we going to let that feeling run
us if it's very UPS if
it's passion motivation if it's a
positive feeling sure but if it's high
negative if it's disturbing uh if we
can't stop thinking about it that thing
that upsets us then it's better if we're
resilient and resilience means
technically the time it takes you to
recover from Peak upset to getting back
to a calm and clear state which is
facilitates that optimal that we've been
talking about uh and so uh
self-management means on the one hand
not letting your upset overwhelm you
managing it but also remembering what
has meaning here for you what where's
your sense of purpose what matters to
you about what you're doing what
motivates you uh can you see the
positive as I said before rather than
just zoning in on that negative selft
talk all of this is part of
self-management and you talk about the
importance uh that we perhaps of a of a
skill we perhaps gain as we grow older
but many of us and and you know don't
necessarily manage all that well which
is to leave a pause and time between
your first impulse whether it's anger or
upset or whatever it might be offence H
and and your
reaction you know uh Danny Conan wrote a
book Thinking Fast and Slow about system
one and system two as he called it one
of them is very fast and can get get us
in trouble uh and one of them is
relatively slower in brain time and that
means we can be more skillful in what we
do and you've put it very well Hana I
think we need to pause uh and be sure
that what we're about to do is the more
skillful
response I'm G to hope that I can
articulate a quandry I have when I was
reading this chapter which is you
advocate of course you talk about the
marshmallow experiment and the
importance of not acting on impulse and
having that um
self-control uh and you say that if you
have that you may not be um so prone to
anxiety and worry and I feel like
actually there are a lot of people who
have an enormous amount of
self-control and actually that enormous
amount of
self-control leads to uh them being
prone to anxiety and worry because it
sort of forms a sense of a
perfectionism it's not a relaxed quality
in a lot of people the need to uh have
such a such a rigid sense of
self-control I I hope that I've
articulated that query yes let me clear
that up because I'm glad you brought
this quandry to light uh perfectionism
is what we were talking about earlier
when we were saying you focus on what
you did wrong not what you did right in
fact there's a leadership style where
people people who are perfectionists
that is who drive themselves like
120% do better and get promoted to a
management position but they don't know
how to lead they just see other people
through that same critical lens so they
give critiques failing grades not
positive grades and if you do that with
yourself if you're a
perfectionist uh it is very debilitating
because you don't appreciate the good
side you don't appreciate what's helping
you so I think that managing selft talk
or monitoring selft talk and seeing am I
doing that again and when you say
enormous
self-control perhaps you means uh
someone who's suppressing emotion which
I don't think is helpful at all I think
it's just wanding watching the emotion
to see when is it debilitating and what
can you do about it rather than removing
all feeling which I don't think is
helpful in the in the first place
because you need your motivation you
need your passion you need to care uh
and these are all emotions that are very
helpful and before we move on I suppose
to um empathy which obviously forms a
huge part of this and bringing others in
and P inter personal relationships and
just um really interested by the changes
we spoke about earlier in emotional
intelligence and the language around it
you talk about uh the word grit that is
essentially a large relabeling of of the
achieve competence in your model and
what do you make of of grit how
important is is this idea of having a
sense of grit and
persistence if you're going to attain a
large goal whatever it may be for you uh
you need to persist you need what has
been called grit and uh from my point of
view it's the the goal to rather the
motivation to achieve a goal and this is
part of self-management too because
every day is going to bring distractions
and you know the crisis of the day the
question is can you keep moving toward
that larger goal one of the elements of
that optimal State or the op the good
day at work is that people have small
winds toward a larger goal I think this
is very important you're not going to
achieve it overnight it's a large goal
but you can do something daily or most
every day that moves you closer to it so
is it
fundamental to this sense of optimal and
to have an optimal day that you are
enjoying what you do one of the elements
of that good day is you feel good so uh
if you feel good I was talking to
someone about cust customer experience
for example if you encounter someone uh
in a store a retail Clerk or a call
center whoever it might be who's having
a bad day and treats you in a way where
they communicate that emotion to you and
by the way emotions are very
communicable very
transmittable uh it's going to make you
feel bad if you encounter someone who's
having a good day who feels good they're
going to make you feel good and you'll
feel better about that company or that
organization this is fundamental this is
a positive function uh in a business for
example of people being in that optimal
State and one of the things that strikes
me about the optimal state is that it's
it's a circle of positivity so instead
of a vicious circle once you one element
clicks into place the the rest sort of
rolls
on I would call it a virtuous circle
virtual Circle I was looking for that
because we're told we have much more
negative words in the English language
and I know the vicious circle is often
used and I was thinking of the virtuous
circle well what you're talking about
now really is leading in isn't it to
empathy um and we all have an idea of
what empathy is but you you clarify
these emotions and these feelings and
these ideas better than most so what is
the empathy that we are seeking in order
to reach an optimal State I think that
there are three kinds of empathy uh and
they seem to be based in different parts
of the brain one is cognitive empathy
understand uh how you think about what's
going on the labels you use to yourself
uh this is empathy that AI could be very
good at because it's a language model
this means you can be very effective at
messaging however there's a second kind
of empathy uh which is very different
that's emotional empathy that means I
know what you feel I I feel it to or I
sense it I resonate with you and this is
very positive in terms of keeping our
interaction uh on the same page so to
speak and the Third Kind of empathy is
technically called empathic concern it
means I care about you and I think it's
maybe the most important I worry about
AI for example because they're not
programmed to care necessarily about the
well-being of people uh and in in a
relationship in a close relationship
especially your spouse your co-workers
your boss your friends you want this
kind of empathy and you want to show it
do you think that perhaps that's a
reason not to worry about AI the fact
that they can't do this and the fact
that they can't do this means that we
shouldn't fear them entering the
workplace in the places where this is so
important uh that's a I think rather you
to opian vision for AI which I don't
really agree with I think that AI should
be programmed to care uh because
otherwise it could be very
destructive okay so that's interesting
you think that that is the way to deal
with AI is inevitable therefore come and
it needs to be programmed to care and
that's
possible there's a debate in AI circles
about this right now and I don't know
which way it will go okay interesting um
and in terms of how empathy we've talked
about uh how important empathy is what
it is but as with everything in the book
there are ways to boost these qualities
so how do you Advocate then that someone
who knows that empathy is something they
need within their workplace which is
everybody I would say uh and they feel
perhaps it's not a quality in which they
are strong H what are your methods of of
boosting empathy so first of all you
have to realize we almost never get
feedback about how other people actually
feel yeah we imagine how they feel so
one of the correctives is to try to get
that empathy try to get that feedback
rather about how a person is feeling you
can ask someone we rarely do uh but you
could say you know I sense you're
feeling X is that right or not that
already tells the brain something we
don't ordinally know and there's a
larger lesson here which which is that
emotional intelligence unlike IQ is
learn and learnable and we can enhance
it at any point in life that we're
motivated to do so I have a Daniel
gemman emotional intelligence online
program that's one way uh there are many
ways many companies for example offer
emotional intelligence programs to help
people become better so when it comes to
empathy I think the the prime way to
boost empathy is to do what the brain
hungers for which is to get feedback and
to see if you're right or you're not
about how the
other um actually you remind me of a
part of the book that I highlighted with
interest which is of course that
emotional intelligence you said you know
you can learn it at any stage of your
life and you also write that emotional
intelligence in fact perhaps improves
with
age emotional intelligence uh seems to
improve with age people as people mature
they become more calm more in charge of
their lives hopefully survey data seems
to show that emotional intelligence
unlike IQ by the way uh does improve
with
age and and just Mo moving back to a
question in fact I addressed at the very
start uh when you talk about the
importance of feedback um and these
relationships that are so important to
establishing empathy and understanding
empathy it makes me think again how much
I question what the world of work which
has changed so much in the last few
years does to that and the ease of that
because so many of us now do not work in
a place where we interact in person with
other people uh you know what has that
done to emotional intelligence to
empathy to relationships in the
workplace and the way and the way we
work and what the future looks like in
that sense yes this is really important
Hana and I think that uh to the extent
that we don't spend five days a week
with our co-workers very few people do
anymore uh that uh we don't have the
naturally occurring opportunity to get
to know them we don't go out for a drink
after work we don't have lunch together
we don't find out about other people's
family
situation uh and that's very very
important in terms of empathy because
you you understand the whole person you
sense more of the person at any rate
than you can if you only on Zoom for
example becomes very transactional or
you just have two days a week in the
office uh rather than five so I think
that what's happened is that the way we
work together is thinning out uh the
kind of naturally occurring empathy that
happened in the old format and how do
you think that we can compensate for
that or is the only way to encourage
getting back to a a workplace
environment you know I I think that uh
it behooves us to reach out to people
that matter to us and do that more to
you know have a phone call or get
together apart from the work situation
and ask about the person not about the
job but what do you want from Life what
do you want from career you know just
the kinds of things you'd want to know
know about another person that we no
longer have the opportunity to ask in a
naturally occurring
situation well before we started talking
I did say to you that our how-to Academy
viewers and listeners um have such
perceptive questions and I I hope I
might have time to come back to some
more of mine at the end but I'm
reluctant not to ask them so I'm gonna
just uh just jump in because um someone
who calls himself RS says Thank You For
This brilliant dialogue I'm learning a
great deal please could Daniel elaborate
on how AI is effective at the language
of empathy a real world example or
practical example would be very helpful
I mean I think you said it needs to
learn but perhaps you do have examples
well you know AI is a learning machine
the fact that it's a machine means it
has zero emotion it can only imitate
what it's like to have emotion when it
comes to language AI is extremely
proficient so I I don't know that I can
give off the top of my head a real life
example but anyone who uses AI knows it
can be really
fantastic at uh imitating the language
of someone about some topic it's
instantaneous whether it can resonate
emotionally I don't know but I think AI
can learn to maybe read emotion from
tone of voice or from facial expression
those are uh channels that Express
emotion
uh and then to imitate someone who's
empathic and empathic in all senses not
just the language
sense uh Sarah very good question which
um I know people will be interested in
how organizations cultivate a culture of
emotional intelligence amongst their
leaders and ensure this is sustained I
mean a brilliant question thank you
Sarah thank you for asking that in fact
much of the book is about exactly this
uh because we studied a few uh case
examples of companies that were uh in
terms of their culture quite emotionally
intelligent one thing we found was that
they had a visible champion from the
business side not from the resource you
know the human uh resources side someone
for example a senior vice president who
said this matters here and they let that
be known in for example uh their
selection process so people would self-
select they'd want to come company that
was emotionally intelligent they also
embedded it in the performance review it
wasn't just did you hit your numbers for
the quarter but how did you get them did
you bur people out did you pressure them
uh do people hate you or the most
talented going to leave that's the bad
way or did you inspire people did you
influence people uh did you coach people
that's the better way to get the best
performance to get people into that
optimal State and uh they also offered
training programs training that works
not just like um you know a two-hour
seminar but an ongoing practice in some
element that a person wants to get
better at of emotional intelligence
those were all uh typical of the
emotionally intelligent organizations
and by the way one of the companies we
looked at uh I don't know if it's in the
UK it's in the states it's called
Progressive it's used to be insurance
it's Financial now uh and U they had a
champion of emotional intelligence and
the director of their customer relations
unit which actually was all of the
insurance agents and he said you know
we're in a relationship business this
really counts and their profit was uh
just increased extraordinarily during
his
tenure do you think
overall Society has got better at this I
I I feel um positive that workplaces are
more sensitive and empathetic than
perhaps they used to
be I hope you're right but I'm not sure
I think it's quite
uneven uh you know emotional
intelligence programs have been
introduced in many schools but the way
they're implemented makes all the
difference if you don't have a teacher
who cares about it not gonna work uh if
you don't have a boss who cares about it
it's not going to work and I would say
that the uh forces that determine the
culture of a company are
multiple and uh emotional intelligence
may or may not be part of it so I'm
guess I'm not as sanguin as you are uh
well Peter asks if there are exercises
and another good question I'm sure many
of us will be interested to hear your
answer to help us to pause and inhibit
that knee-jerk reaction we were talking
about earlier you know it's called Uh
technically cognitive control it's the
ability of the brain to man manage
impulse and if your uh impulse to act is
very very strong it may not operate well
so uh practicing a pause is part of
developing attention uh developing that
Focus because the pause is built into
the ability to see some a thought or an
Impulse as a distraction and to go back
to what you're focusing on so I would
say that exercise I described where you
pay attention to the breath and when you
notice you're distracted you bring it
back will help you also with a pause and
remembering about the
pause particularly in the heat of a
moment is going to help too but that may
not always occur I should bring in here
because you also address um really large
issues at the end of the book uh that
that can cause more um sort of anxiety
than perhaps a kneejerk uh sense of
worry things like climate change poverty
political corruption that we look around
and see and that really do trigger
emotionally many people um how can you
improve you know how can you use
emotional intelligence to to feel calmer
in the face of those sorts of things
that we have no control over or we feel
we have no control over well let me uh
first talk about what makes us angry and
then what makes us anxious I think what
makes us angry for example is
corruption uh may be the the rich pour
Gap getting
larger uh and here my model is the
Doyama he says anger is a useful emotion
if you remove the hatred and you keep
the focus and the motivation and the
persistence and channel your anger in a
positive reaction uh this is very
similar to what Danny conman would say
about thinking fast and slow the anxiety
uh of climate change which is greater
among younger people uh I think is very
very important and one uh way I look at
this is to use our present economic
system whether you feel it's fair or not
in a kind of Judo I argue that uh people
now are blind to how the the things we
do and buy and use are uh creating great
uh
problems and disturbances not only in
the climate in carbon but in terms of
biodiversity palatable poble drinking
water uh you know there there are eight
great systems that support life on the
planet almost all of which are being
degraded by how we live and what I'm
saying is that Smart Companies will be
uh more transparent about ways in which
they're improving things things versus
their competition which may not be doing
that I think this will become a
Competitive Edge as things go on and
hopefully one day the lines will cross
and the improvements being made uh in
how we make and do uh will uh start to
lower the cost for the
climate um I me again as I said TR truly
fascinating and so much to discuss on
that but I'm going to ask a bring in
another audience question at this stage
um Andrew says it's a privilege to hear
you in person I've benefited and used
your teaching professionally over many
years and now I'm retired does your
research share any insights about
Optimal Performance emotional
intelligence in the third
age well as I said uh we tend to get
wiser uh with age we tend to become more
emotionally balanced with age and I
think that the uh the third part of life
after retirement is a wonderful time to
do something that helps other
people I think that's a a lovely uh
lovely answer to the to the question um
I suppose an anonymous attendee says um
and I'm sure this again is is a is a
issue and a consideration for many the
idea of being open and honest is a
very one we all want to to achieve and
and and a way that we all want to be but
um this person says what if I'm hesitant
to be open honest at work because of a
fear of losing my job or the fear may be
being criticized or you know being told
that you shouldn't speak your mind which
many of many people feel inhibited like
that at work yes and I think that's
quite right remember I made a
distinction between what the things that
you can change and the things you can't
change and have to adjust to and I think
a an atmosphere of fear at work is may
be something you can't change the
question is hey why let them dictate how
you feel why don't you take control over
your inner life how you feel at
work yes I there two things there you
don't let others control the way you
feel um and also this sort of Serenity
Prayer essentially you've mentioned
quite a few times to control and and be
be able to control what you can but to
let go what what you can't um and
Antonio says thank you so much for such
a brilliant and inspiring talk it's a
joy listening to you live I'd like to
ask um with so very interesting again
something you address in the book with
so many training and leadership
development programs around the world
and on the web why disengagement and
burnout and mounting and still so many
bad and low empathetic great leaders
around in organizations and
outside uh there is a plethora of ways
to train in emotional intelligence as I
said I have my own there are many many
however I think that the portion of
people who go through such programs is
quite small relative to the portion of
people who are suffering from the larger
forces at work that create alienation
that create
disenchantment uh that um make it
difficult for people in many many ways
and many organizations pay no attention
to emotional intelligence in who they
promote who they hire that's a reality
and as I said you we adjust to the
reality that we have to and we take
control over our inner
life um kmen asks Daniel how best to
cultivate emotional intelligence in
younger generations and in
children I've been a champion for years
of what we call social emotional
learning uh there's a website
c.org uh which is
uh says what the best programs look like
and I advocate seal but it needs to be
implemented well it turns out and I
wouldn't say to a a school system I
think in the UK you have a uniform
system uh I believe anyway many nations
do I don't think it works to just tell
teachers or administrators you've got to
do this it's better if people adopt it
because they believe in it because it
helps them many teachers in schools
where there are successful seal programs
are happy because kids are better
behaved in the class so it's easier for
them to teach what they need to teach
but I think that it should come from
within not be imposed from
without um hannaman I hope I've
pronounced your name right hannahan Das
from godic says how did the Indian Saint
neim Koli Baba influence your thinking
on optimal living if indeed it did and
how can we use optimal living to reduce
violence in the world so um Anand Das
must be a kind of Insider uh when I was
in India I was with a an amazing uh
teacher an old Yogi named Nim CI Baba uh
who was fantastic he was more than
empathic and more than uh Center he kind
like a paragon of emotional intelligence
but he's a rarity and so so the question
is how can we spread that capacity that
is why I wrote the book optimal I think
it's important to meet people where they
are and to take them from where they are
to where they can be and that's what
we're trying to do in the book
optimal how how would you Advocate
people listening to spread this spread
the word apart from of course telling
them to read your book other ways of of
spreading this idea into the world I
think the most most powerful way is to
model it yeah use it
yourself um Marie asks if you have
recommendations um on how to boost
emotional intelligence if living with
and and I think you know two separate
things but autism uh and CPM
TSD this is a very profound question uh
and I don't really know the answer but
it may lay in
workarounds uh in overcoming
whatever uh neural deficit a person may
have and finding a way to manage
relationships uh well uh that don't
depend on those
capacities because um one of our
listeners has missed this and because I
think it is hugely important so simple
but so important I might ask you to
repeat it for their benefit and for all
of ours which is um somebody says I
missed the mental exercise for training
the Mind simple but effective and just
before we come to the next question
perhaps we could all just uh remind
ourselves of
that it's very simple it's the mental
equivalent of going to the gym and
strengthening a muscle it strengthens
the neural circuitry for paying
attention and you can use your breath uh
as a focus so you start by being in a
place where you're not going to be
disturbed turn your phone off and uh pay
full attention to the in breath and full
attention to the out breath and the
pause between and then the next
breath and when your mind wanders off
and it's certain to notice that it
wandered and bring it back to the breath
and start again with the next breath
it's very simple that's the full
instruction of course many people who
start this say I just can't do it
because my mind wanders everywhere I'm
crazy my mind is just nuts but
everyone's mind is what you're doing is
training your mind to pay full attention
when you want it to uh and the benefits
of that happen slowly gradually and
inevitably start with five minutes if
that's all you can spare and then work
up to a longer time do it once a day uh
and the benefits will acre in the rest
of your day well I feel instantly
relaxed and Cala just doing it now but I
that probably is not optimal for your
interviewer so I I need to uh be in a
much more alert state name says um hi
Daniel do you think the AI will be able
to identify excellence and emotional
intelligence in Recruitment and if so
how a recruitment is very tricky because
people always want to look their best
when they're going for a job I think the
uh best way the best information you can
get about a person thinking of hiring is
to ask people confidentially who have
worked with them uh but this is not
always possible so I don't know that AI
will be any better than a human
interviewer uh at something that's quite
difficult you just then I actually
mentioned something I think again is so
interesting in the book which is the
difference between the calm the
importance of staying calm and
self-aware and managing your emotions
but also the sense that you need a
certain amount of good stress and
adrenaline uh to keep you going and for
example people might relate
to uh a feeling that their optimal state
is one in which they are quite wired and
sort of their their body is quite
stressed in a certain way where's the
balance in that well first of all
recognize there are huge individual
differences Yeah in our nervous system I
was talking to a guy who used to be a
jet fighter pilot
and he said you know uh our reaction
time has to be in the top 99th
percentile or or we don't get the job
and we run on
adrenaline those are fighter pilots
that's a rare thing a lot of people uh
make a a common mistake which is to
assume that you need to be in a wired
state to do well which I really I would
challenge the question is are you
focused maybe you depend on getting
wired to focus but can you learn to be
calm and focused uh so you can think
more clearly when you're calm and that
exercise I just showed does two things
nly one is it sharpens attention the
other is the same circuitry calms you
down so you become calm and clear I
would argue that people can do very very
well uh if they're calm and clear and
may not have to be wired all the time
because being wired all the time is not
good for you physiologically it's not
good for you in the rest of life so what
are you
sacrificing uh in order to stay wired
all the time to have
calm and to be calm and clear as you as
you say to find tranquility and Clarity
Focus would you say it's important you
you mentioned turning off your phone
when you're doing this particular
exercise but to be in that optimal State
even with others is it advisable to try
and minimize all distractions Music
phone uh digital do do you need is that
a is that an important Focus for for
optimization for being optimal I I think
that's important for the practice uh but
you bring it to life and life is full of
phones and noise and distractions yes
exactly so it's about being able to find
that with all the distractions of life
and that's the concentration you need
presumably for example if you're with
someone else are you really focusing on
that person or are you distracted by
whatever is going on around you that
person wants to feel felt that person
wants to feel that they're listen to
that they're heard and that demands that
you focus on them not on the
distractions and you say that
multitasking is a myth so also in terms
of uh being you know living uh optimally
as you would Advocate it's better to
focus on one task at a time I say
multitasking is a myth because although
people feel they do things
simultaneously the brain doesn't work
that way it does one thing at a time uh
attention is a defined capacity we can
pay attention here or there or there we
can switch very
rapidly uh but if you're uh very
interesting if you do this exercise the
breath exercise and develop a focus uh
and then you go to work say and your
focus is very good on what you're doing
then you get distracted on my email or
they pinging me or whatever and then you
go then you end up you know uh Doom
scrolling on on your phone and then you
go back to that task your attention is
now much lower much less and you need to
ramp it up uh however if you practiced
an attention strengthener that I describ
cribe uh you are much
less
uh de atttention if you will yeah and
get back to full focus more quickly
you're much less thrown by things that
would otherwise throw you uh our time is
very sadly up um I reiterate um our
audience's reactions to say it was a a
huge pleasure listening to your wisdom
hearing your wisdom Gathering your
wisdom uh we're very grateful to you for
that uh thank you so much if you've um
signed into this you can of course um
watch the video back or you if you
missed anything uh you can recommend it
to friends and at some stage in the
future we will also be releasing the
conversation as a podcast um but for now
thank you very much indeed to all who
signed in and Daniel thank you so much
to you honor my pleasure thank you for
having
[Music]
me
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