Elder Drazi Defends Fauci's "Noble" Lies
Summary
TLDRThe transcript revolves around a debate on the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, focusing on the actions and statements of former President Trump and Dr. Anthony Fauci. It discusses whether Trump downplayed the virus's severity, particularly in 'blue states,' and the rationale behind such actions. The conversation also touches on the 'noble lie' concept, questioning if it's ever acceptable to lie to prevent public panic. The debate contrasts Trump's messaging with Fauci's guidance, highlighting the complexities in leadership and public health communication during a crisis.
Takeaways
- 😷 The discussion revolves around the handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, with a focus on the actions and statements of former President Trump and Dr. Anthony Fauci.
- 🗣️ There is a debate about whether it was acceptable for Trump to downplay the severity of the virus, especially when it was primarily affecting 'blue states'.
- 🤔 The conversation suggests that Trump may have been following the advice of experts like Dr. Fauci, who also initially downplayed the virus and later admitted to lying about mask effectiveness to prevent panic.
- 📢 Trump's public statements are scrutinized for possibly being overly optimistic or dismissive of the virus's impact, with quotes suggesting he believed the virus would 'just vanish'.
- 😷 The script mentions Dr. Fauci's change in stance on mask-wearing, initially advising against it and later stating it was necessary, which he attributed to concerns about causing panic and shortages.
- 💉 The conversation touches on the development of the COVID-19 vaccine, with Trump being criticized for rushing it, but ultimately being proven correct according to the script.
- 📉 The script implies that there was a lack of trust in government information, possibly due to inconsistent messaging and perceived downplaying of the situation.
- 🚨 The debate includes the question of whether it is ever appropriate for leaders to withhold or modify the truth to prevent panic, with differing views on the 'noble lie' concept.
- 🏥 The script discusses the impact of panic on public health decisions, such as the controversial decision to place COVID-19 patients in nursing homes.
- 🤝 There is an acknowledgment that while Trump may not have been a virologist or epidemiologist, he was advised by experts and acted on their recommendations.
- 🔍 The conversation raises the question of whether leaders have a duty to the public to provide accurate information, even if it might cause fear or panic.
Q & A
What was the main point of contention regarding Trump's statements about the COVID-19 situation?
-The main point of contention was whether Trump's statements downplaying the severity of COVID-19 were justified or not, and if they were in line with the advice he was receiving from experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci.
What is the 'noble lie' mentioned in the script?
-The 'noble lie' refers to the intentional act of deception for the perceived greater good, such as Dr. Fauci's initial statements about the effectiveness of masks to prevent panic buying.
Did Dr. Fauci admit to lying about the effectiveness of masks?
-Yes, Dr. Fauci admitted that he initially misled the public about the effectiveness of masks because he was concerned about causing panic and shortages of personal protective equipment for healthcare workers.
What was the rationale behind Dr. Fauci's initial advice against mask usage?
-Dr. Fauci's rationale was to prevent panic buying and to ensure that there were enough masks available for healthcare professionals who were at a higher risk of exposure to the virus.
How did Trump's statements about COVID-19 evolve over time?
-Trump's statements evolved from downplaying the virus to acknowledging its severity, with some instances where he suggested the virus would 'disappear' on its own, which was criticized as misleading.
What was the debate about the role of the president in handling the COVID-19 crisis?
-The debate centered around whether the president should have taken a more active role in leading the response to the pandemic, or if he was following the guidance of experts like Dr. Fauci and others.
What was the argument for Trump's approach to the pandemic being based on expert advice?
-The argument was that Trump was following the advice of experts like Dr. Fauci, who recommended a message of optimism to avoid inducing panic among the public.
What was the counter-argument to Trump's approach, as presented in the script?
-The counter-argument was that Trump should have been more transparent and truthful, even if it meant causing panic, and that he had a duty to expose any misinformation he was receiving from experts.
What was the discussion about the effectiveness of different types of masks?
-The discussion revolved around the effectiveness of cloth masks versus N95 masks, with the acknowledgment that while cloth masks may not be as effective, they were still recommended by health experts as a better alternative to no mask at all.
What was the implication of the debate on public trust in government and health institutions?
-The implication was that if the government and health institutions were seen as providing misleading information, it could erode public trust and potentially lead to more panic and confusion.
Outlines
🤔 Debate on Trump's Response to COVID-19
The first paragraph delves into a debate about former President Trump's response to the COVID-19 pandemic. It discusses whether Trump's downplaying of the situation was justified or not, and whether his actions were in line with the advice of experts like Dr. Anthony Fauci. The debate also touches on the idea of a 'noble lie' and whether it's ever acceptable for a leader to mislead the public to prevent panic. The speaker argues that Trump's statements were often in line with what his advisors were recommending, and questions whether he should have taken a different approach despite the advice he was receiving.
🗣️ Trump's Public Statements on COVID-19
The second paragraph focuses on the public statements made by Trump regarding COVID-19. It provides a timeline of comments Trump made, suggesting that he believed the virus would eventually disappear. The speaker challenges the idea that these statements were downplaying the severity of the pandemic, arguing that they were in line with the scientific understanding of herd immunity at the time. The paragraph also addresses the issue of trust in government and the potential consequences of public mistrust due to perceived dishonesty.
😷 The Controversy Over Mask Effectiveness
In the third paragraph, the conversation shifts to the effectiveness of masks during the pandemic, particularly the controversy surrounding Dr. Fauci's initial statements about masks and the subsequent admission of lying to prevent panic buying. The speaker questions the rationale behind the 'noble lie' about masks and argues for the importance of truthfulness in public health communication. There is also a discussion about the types of masks that are effective, with the speaker expressing the view that only N95 masks provide significant protection.
📢 Double Standards in Public Health Messaging
The fourth paragraph highlights a perceived double standard in the evaluation of public health messaging. The speaker points out that while Trump was criticized for his statements about the pandemic, Dr. Fauci's actions, including his initial downplaying of mask effectiveness, were seen as justified by the same critics. The paragraph emphasizes the importance of consistent standards when evaluating the truthfulness and intentions behind public health communication.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Noble Lie
💡Panic
💡Downplaying
💡Public Health
💡Masks
💡Herd Immunity
💡Transparency
💡Optimism
💡Epidemiologist
💡Trust
💡Pandemic
Highlights
Debate on whether it was acceptable for Trump to lie about the situation, with the argument that it was an 'understandable lie'.
Acknowledgment that Trump switched his response to COVID once it started to impact more states, and the claim that he deliberately downplayed it.
Discussion on whether Dr. Fauci has a reason to support Trump, and the confirmation that he doesn't seem to care for him.
Fauci's public statements aligning with what Trump was saying, despite Trump's private acknowledgment of COVID's severity.
Debate on the responsibility of the president versus the advice of experts like Fauci and Birx during a crisis.
Argument that Trump should have overruled experts if he had different information, emphasizing the duty to keep the public safe.
Fauci's admission of lying about the effectiveness of masks to prevent panic, and the subsequent revelation of the truth.
Disagreement on whether Trump was downplaying the situation based on the information available at the time.
Analysis of Trump's statements suggesting COVID would 'vanish' and whether this constituted a downplaying of the situation.
Critique of the handling of COVID patients in nursing homes, potentially due to panic-induced decision-making.
Debate on whether there was a double standard in holding Trump accountable for his statements versus those of Dr. Fauci.
Discussion on the effectiveness of cloth masks and the controversy surrounding mask mandates.
Fauci's initial statement on masks being 'not necessary' and the later correction that created confusion.
The concept of a 'noble lie' in public health communication and its ethical implications.
Criticism of the inconsistency in messaging regarding masks and the impact on public trust.
Reflection on the role of optimism in crisis communication and its potential to prevent panic.
Final thoughts on the responsibility of leaders in times of crisis and the importance of truthful communication.
Transcripts
so it was okay for him to lie about the
situation it was uh I think that it was
an understandable uh lie to tell at that
point in time and we needed to have them
yeah do you do you acknowledge that
Trump switched his uh switched his RoR
on Co once it started to impect more
States uh and deliberately downplayed co
uh the entire time that it was affecting
primarily blue States no I don't
acknowledge that I think in fact a lot
of what was going on for example would
you let me preface this I know this is
in good form but would you admit that Dr
fouchy has no reason to carry water for
Trump he doesn't seem to really care for
him correct I don't know okay well
fouchy when we had the infamous oh Trump
talked to was it Bernstein uh Trump
talked about how serious Co was behind
the scenes to Bernstein but publicly he
was saying different things fouchy went
on national television and said actually
the things that Trump is saying publicly
were in line with what we are
recommending to him and one of the
overall problems what you're saying I'm
actually going to be more charitable to
you than most people would when saying
that I still do believe that the buck
stops with the president at some level
but the Democrats were saying that Trump
should have taken a backseat and it
should have been people like fouchy and
beer that were running things so the
question I have seeing as H Trump's not
a virologist or an epidemiologist if he
was going in line with what foui and
beks and others like Francis Collins and
others were telling him to do what is
really the blame him so for example we
see that right out of the gate uh we saw
that fouchy came out and said oh don't
worry about masks they don't work
anyways you don't need them then he came
out a month later and said actually we
lied we were worried that you were all
going to have a rush on mask we didn't
want to panic everyone and cause rushes
on you know shortages of food and toilet
paper and masks Etc so we intentionally
lied to you given that was clearly the
take from Dr fouchy that they were
trying to not induce panic I have a
difficult time on this topic
specifically blaming Trump for listening
to fouchy and them with a message of
optimism saying look we're going to get
through this it's not as bad as it seems
if that's what his team was recommending
that he do do you think he should have
overed the rule of them and said I don't
care what faly and Beck Etc say I'm
going to go out and say oh my God this
is really shitty we're in a lot of
trouble if you think that he had
different information available to him
that what Dr vou was saying was not
correct and I would say yes he has a
duty to the American people to tell us
that and not go in line with what this
guy is saying I think it would be his
duty to expose that and keep the
American people safe so you would argue
that you could never foresee a time
where an executive administ rtion should
downplay a situation because if they
didn't there would be mass panic or
something like that that would make the
situation worse are you suggesting
that's what he was doing I'm suggesting
it seems to be that that's in line with
what uh fouchi Etc had done that's the
exact rationale they gave for why they
according to their words Trump right
what I'm saying is he was listening to
fchan them we know that Fouch them
already admitted in a previous scenario
when it came to the mask that yes we
lied to people because we didn't want to
panic
them so you're saying that Trump did
know what was correct but he decided to
say what Dr fouchi told him instead no
I'm saying that Trump probably had some
base idea that Co was a serious
situation which he never denied that it
was serious he didn't really deny that
it was serious but I think that he was
like listening to people like fouchy and
them that were saying here's how you
approach it a message of optimism you
don't want to freak people out and he
said okay did he know like that what he
was saying was a blatant lie no I don't
think he knew that I think that he had
reason to believe there was optimism
because the people around him for
example he was accused of lying over and
over again saying the vaccine's on its
way it's going to be here and almost
every expert and talking head from the
Democratic party was going on television
saying it's impossible it can't be here
in that time frame Trump is rushing it
it will be dangerous he can't say things
like that and then it turned out he was
correct and they immediately went from I
wouldn't trust it it's dangerous to not
only do we trust it and it's the best
thing ever but you should all be forced
to take it okay so you're saying he
never made it seem like it wasn't that
big of a deal he repeatedly said that it
was just going to Vish countless times
he said it's just going to disappear
it's just going to vanish the beginning
of the pandemic you don't think that's
him not taking it serious you just said
you don't think that he what month did
he say that wasn't serious what month
did he say
that um he said it in October before he
got here uh and then uh throughout
several months of the pandemic he
repeated this rhetoric okay like what
other month other than October before it
got there's a quote there's a quote of
him uh he repeated it uh like five times
in February he repeated in the question
is whether or not
actually when he oh I'm I think I'm
muted no I heard his question is yeah
his question is like April is it down
playing based on when he said it so is
the information that we have at the time
actually enough for him to know that he
is saying something that is downplaying
okay so I'll answer this in two ways
I'll going through all the months July
okay I'll answer this in two ways I'll
answer this okay I'll answer this in two
ways right one yes when he was saying
things in October February Etc remember
the person that he's supposed to be
listening to Dr fouchy was saying it's
no big deal actually the flu will be
worse but you say that he said and I'm
quoting now several times in August this
is nothing to worry about it will just
vanish on its own can you show me those
quotes
yeah I have a whole list of them sure
I'd like to see the ones in August I'm
also talking October 2020 right I'd like
to see the ones in August where he said
don't worry it'll vanish on its
own I'm sending it to you
okay uh also past that he said it's
gonna run its course in just Spanish
yeah Beyond August okay he say so here
so I'll read some of these so what I'll
do is from your CNN article you said
I'll read some of them now great ites
doesn't have the full context it's just
one sentence and we do know that
sometimes the context around things can
change but this is the information we
have around so I'll read the specific
quotes some of these as opposed to just
saying yeah yeah he said this all the
time so here's things he said I don't
think people are panicing this is in
March 6 2020 I don't think people are
panicking I said last night we did an
interview on Fox at Town Hall I think it
was very good and I said calm down you
have to be calm it'll go away as was in
March uh let's go a little further let's
see
uh April 3rd he says it's going to go
away it'll go it'll go
[Music]
away let's see here uh you said let skip
to a little later you said
July and I think we're going to be very
good with the coronavirus I think that
at some point it's just
gonna okay July 1st 2020 I think at some
point we're going to be very good with
the coronavirus I think at some point
it's just going to sort of disappear I
hope uh July 22nd we're going to beat it
yeah we're going to beat it and with
time you're going to beat it it's going
to be okay you know I say it's going to
disappear and I say oh and they say oh
that's terrible he said well it's true I
mean it's going to disappear before it
disappears I think we could knock it out
before it
disappears and frankly this is August
13th 2020 frankly you know we've had a
tremendous a tremendous Market you know
I've talked about that the stock market
think of it we're almost back to where
we were and still in the pandemic which
is going to go away and I'll say it'll
be going away and they'll scream how can
you say that I said it because it's
going to be going away sounds to me like
what he's saying is eventually we'll get
through this it will go away this is in
line with science that talked about how
things like natural immunity would
actually mean that we would have
protection from this at some point uh
once we got sort of a herd immunity so I
don't think he's saying anything as
nefarious as you seem to be implying
here uh the idea that this was
downplaying what's the alternative was
he telling people to go hug a [ __ ]
was he saying that it would be
xenophobic to stop travel from places
where the virus was like
China no it seems that that I can't hear
you I believe you're
muted okay let's cool we can do the rest
of the debate like this oh oh yeah my
dog my dog my dog was my dog was barking
so I muted it out see uh I think the
alternative would be to discuss the
reality of the situation that we were
facing okay yeah the reality of the
situation which was what that there was
mass induced Panic that forced that the
Panic was so bad that we did things like
force covid patients into nursing homes
that read the tens of thousands of
deaths that would have been a better
alternative yeah Rob think that's I
think that's I think that's a good I'm
reesing that he say okay will you
acknowledge that there were many people
particularly in blue states that were so
panicked by Co and overselling it that
they as a rationale for that forced
covid patients into nursing homes I
can't tell you exactly why they did what
they did but I can say that when they
can see the reality isn't matching up
with with what the highest level of
government was telling
them repeating rhetor like everything's
fine it's going to go away everything's
completely under control when you're
saying this kind of rhetoric over and
over again I think that people aren't
going to be able to trust uh the highest
levels of government to inform them and
that's going to raise not just suspicion
uh but yeah it's going to induce a lot
more panic because they can't trust that
what should have been the most reliable
source on what is probably the biggest
Global event that we'll see in our lives
okay so first off I would itself to a
lot of panic I would say that that's
actually goes the exact opposite way as
well for example one of the things that
Democrats supported is Dr Fouch do you
support Dr fouchi did you support him by
the way
uh I don't think he's done anything that
was particularly egregious well you are
aware that he initially lied about the
fxt of masks admitted that he lied
because he said that he was afraid
people would panic and go mass by mask
or mass by masks which meant that
medical professionals wouldn't Happ you
acknowledge he did that
correct yeah he was right so it was okay
for him to lie about the
situation it was uh I think that it was
an understandable uh lie to tell at that
point in time and we needed to have them
yeah can you can you explain to me what
the benefit of what Trump was saying was
U so what I'll do is I'll get to
explaining the benefit the same way that
fou she had had the benefit of the Mask
thing because I'll get i'll get to
that hospitals across the United States
I'll get to that but I'll stay on the
point that we're on so initially at this
he's you heard Elder jzi say no at no
point should someone tell the noble lie
you always have to tell the truth that's
something that needs to happen yes you
did that's what you implied earlier
that's what you said going back I said
can you envision a situation where I was
talking about Donald Trump oh so just
with Trump with Trump he always has to
tell the truth and he can't tell the
noble lie to stop people from panicking
but Dr fouchy it's okay for him to do it
if you want to give me an example where
Trump told a lie based on uh a fear that
ended up coming true that uh that thing
coming true made the situation worse for
everybody sure I think what Dr fouchi
did was the correct approach because he
was correct the result was what he had
predicted that it would been if he had
made that announcement you think that
Donald Trump had lied in the same manner
let's let's talk let's start I promise
we'll get back to Trum talking about
Trump because he's the president we'll
get to Trump in a second let's talk
about this Noble lie that you support
from fouchi again here in a second uh do
you believe that Fouch do you believe
cloth masks are effective
no do you think fouchy said that um I
don't know so you were against Mass
there was a lot of changing R so you
admit Mass mandates were [ __ ]
because cloth masks aren't effective uh
I I think that using a cloth math to
abide by a mask mandate is ridiculous
okay what type of mask should we abide
by only n95 ones yeah that's the only
ones I've ever used okay so just to be
clear you're aware that none of the Mask
mandate said that you had to wear an n95
mask and the probably 90 to 95% of
people were wearing wearing masks that
weren't n95 masks which you're admitting
weren't working yeah sure I think that
that could have been handled better okay
and you admit that Dr fouchy said those
masks were effective maybe not as
effective as n95 but they were still
worth wearing uh I believe he said that
when that was the understanding so he
was wrong at the time yeah okay do you
believe I'm okay with people being wrong
fair fair enough that's perfectly fine
do you believe when he came out and said
never mind we lied to you because we
didn't want you to mass panic and buy
mask do you believe at that point he
thought cloth masks were effective I
don't know what do you mean you don't
know that's what he was saying oh if he
said it then sure then my question to
you you presented to me sure then my
question to you is my question to you
would
be if he was telling the noble lie why
didn't he do this hey everyone don't
panic and go rush and buy n95 Mas which
are the only good masks actually the
paper mask and the cloth masks are
effective as well so do you have one of
these at home a shirt if you have an
extra one why don't you just cut it TI
it around your face and that'll give you
prevention why didn't he say that why
instead that they intentionally lie and
in his belief in his own words tell
people not to do something that would
significantly protect them from Co and
you think that was a good thing that he
lied and in jeopardized people when he
could have gave them an alternative in
his mind that would have been successful
no I think that he did what he thought
was thing I disagree if he thought CL
people can make mistakes and that's fine
no it wasn't a mistake if he thought at
the time he made that statement that
cloth masks were effective and he knew
that anyone could make a cloth mask with
even an article of clothing why wouldn't
he have told them that that would have
still to stopped the Panic buying of n95
mask so why did he do something in his
own words I'm not I'm not I'm not here
to tell I'm not here to tell you why
Anthony fouchy did anything that he did
that's absolutely right I go based on uh
where the I can go Based on data whether
or not it seems like he was acting
maliciously I don't think that he was
acting maliciously well the data how how
does the data prove if he was acting
maliciously or not what sort of data
give me the data I don't think there is
any that suggests he was acting but what
would that data look like let's say we
had white papers that showed that uh
cloth masks were wholly uneffective and
then he said you should wear cloth masks
they're effective okay so the point I'm
making is we don't need that data point
because he said publicly that cloth
masks were effective he said that all
forms he of course he said n95 were
Superior and that you should get that if
you could but he said that all these
other forms of mas were better than
nothing it seems evident that he truly
believed that my question to you is if
he's lying to prevent people from buying
n95 masks why can't we say that clearly
he was intentionally jeopardizing people
in his own mind but said it was worth it
for the greater good but he knew that he
could have told a different lie that
would have been far safer for those
people which was make your own cloth
mask which he did
do I can't okay you're asking me to
specifically know exactly what he was
thinking he said I don't know that and I
don't need to know that make the case
that I'm making which is that I do think
in the best public health interest the
topic that you've settled on is asking
me to know exactly what Trump was
thinking when he said
things you the reason I bring up Dr
fouchy in this context is you initially
said when I was like look I don't agree
with everything Trump said allow me to
finish me there's a delay so you have to
allow me to finish right but uh so uh
the reason that this came up in the
first place was I made a point that
clearly there's a bunch of things that
Trump handled this that I vehemently
disagree with which I admitted at the
outset and I said I don't agree with all
of his writer however I do understand
that basically most of what he was
saying Dr fouchi said was in line with
what they were saying because they
didn't want him to induce panic and you
said no no no no no he has to tell the
truth no matter what even if it induces
panic and then you immediately you
immediately when it comes to like okay
but fouchy lied in an attempt to not
induce Panic you're like yeah he did the
right thing and so it seems clear that
you have a double standard on this
that's why we're bringing it up
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