Thinking About Christ Will Shatter Your Conception of Time | Fr. Stephen De Young & Jonathan Pageau
Summary
TLDRThe script delves into the theological concept of time and space as experienced by different beings, particularly in the context of Christianity. It discusses the iconography of Christ as the creator of the world, the perception of time by animals versus humans, and the unique consciousness of angelic beings. The conversation also touches on the eternal nature of God and Christ, beyond human concepts of time, and the historical points where divine truths entered human consciousness, such as the Incarnation and the fall of angels.
Takeaways
- đ The script discusses the iconography and theological interpretations of Jesus Christ as the creator of the world, highlighting historical and religious perspectives.
- đ€ It mentions Saint Maximus and his sayings, suggesting a symbolic representation of Christ during the crucifixion as the creator of the world.
- đ The idea of Christ as the 'Son of Man' is presented, emphasizing the continuity of this image in religious iconography up to the 14th century.
- đĄ The script touches on the concept of time and consciousness, suggesting that different beings, including humans and animals, experience time differently.
- đ¶ An example is given about a dog adapting quickly to the loss of a leg, contrasting human experience and the concept of bodily awareness.
- âł The script questions the application of human time perception to angelic beings and divine entities, noting the limitations of such projections.
- đŒ It brings up the debate about when angels fell, using it as an example of how time is perceived differently in heaven compared to earth.
- đ Reference is made to Father Dumitru Staniloae and his work on Orthodox dogmatics, discussing God's attributes as being beyond spatial and temporal categories.
- đ The script explains the concept of omnipresence in Western theology, suggesting that God is everywhere and nowhere at the same time, beyond human understanding of space and time.
- đ The discussion includes the Incarnation of Christ, questioning the traditional understanding of Christ's experience of time and his ascension into heaven.
- đ The 'Lamb slain before the foundation of the world' is quoted, illustrating the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice and its entry into human consciousness at specific points in history.
Q & A
What is the idea that Jesus Christ created the world as presented in the script?
-The script discusses the concept that in certain religious texts and iconography, it is depicted as if Jesus Christ, as the man, was the one who created the world, which is a continuation of the image of the Son of Man.
Why does Saint Maximus have 'crazy sayings' about Jesus Christ creating the world while on the cross?
-Saint Maximus' 'crazy sayings' reflect the symbolic and theological interpretations that can sometimes appear contradictory when trying to reconcile the divine and human natures of Christ.
What does the script suggest about the representation of God in Old Testament iconography?
-The script suggests that until the 14th century, God was often represented as Christ in Old Testament iconography, indicating a theological understanding where Christ and God are not distinctly separated in these depictions.
How does the script relate the perception of time to the understanding of divine beings?
-The script highlights that different beings, such as animals and humans, experience time differently, and this perception should not be projected onto divine beings like angels or God, whose consciousness and experience of time are fundamentally different.
What is the significance of the phrase 'the lamb slain before the foundation of the world' in the script?
-The phrase signifies the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice, suggesting that it was true before it entered human consciousness and time, reflecting the eternal nature of divine events.
How does the script address the issue of time in relation to the Incarnation of Christ?
-The script suggests that Christ's Incarnation is an event that is eternally true and entered into human consciousness at a specific point in time, but it does not imply that Christ as God experiences time in the same way humans do.
What is the script's view on the omnipresence of God?
-The script explains that God's omnipresence is not about being in all places at the same time in a physical sense, but rather that spatial and temporal categories do not apply to God, who is described as being both everywhere and nowhere.
How does the script discuss the difference between human and animal consciousness in relation to time?
-The script uses the example of a dog adapting to the loss of a leg to illustrate how animals may have a different kind of consciousness and bodily awareness that allows them to adapt to changes more quickly than humans, who have a more complex experience of time.
What is the script's stance on the Calvinist argument against Luther on the Eucharist?
-The script mentions the Calvinist argument that Christ's body cannot be present in the Eucharist because it is in heaven, highlighting a misunderstanding of the divine nature of Christ that transcends physical limitations of time and space.
How does the script interpret the idea of Christ ascending into heaven from the beginning?
-The script suggests that Christ's ascension into heaven is not a temporal event but an eternal one, implying that Christ has always been with God, beyond the constraints of time.
Outlines
đ Theological Interpretations of Christ's Role in Creation
This paragraph delves into theological perspectives on the role of Jesus Christ in the creation of the world. It discusses how some texts, such as those by Saint Maximus, present seemingly contradictory ideas, such as Christ creating the world while on the cross. The speaker emphasizes the importance of iconography in preserving these concepts, especially up to the 14th century, where Christ is often depicted as the creator in Old Testament scenes. The paragraph also touches on the limitations of human understanding of time and space when applied to divine beings, suggesting that what is seen in religious texts might not align with our linear perception of time. The discussion includes the idea that Christ's actions, such as the Incarnation and Ascension, are eternally true and exist beyond human temporal experience, challenging traditional Western theological concepts of omnipresence and the application of spatial and temporal categories to God.
đ The Eternal Truth of Christ's Actions and Their Human Consciousness Entry Points
The second paragraph continues the theological exploration, focusing on the eternal nature of Christ's actions and how they intersect with human consciousness and historical events. It suggests that events like the fall of angels or Christ's Incarnation are not temporally bound but have specific points of entry into human awareness. The speaker uses the metaphor of the 'lamb slain before the foundation of the world' to illustrate the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice. The paragraph concludes with a reflection on the nature of time and space as human constructs that do not limit divine beings, emphasizing the eternal and omnipresent nature of God beyond our comprehension.
Mindmap
Keywords
đĄChrist
đĄIncarnation
đĄSaint Maximus
đĄIconography
đĄOmnipresence
đĄEternal
đĄConsciousness
đĄAngelic beings
đĄSupra-essential
đĄEucharist
đĄTemporal categories
Highlights
The concept that Jesus Christ, as the CR, created the world is depicted in some texts and iconography.
Saint Maximus' writings contain paradoxical sayings about Christ's role in creation.
Iconography up to the 14th century often represents God as Christ in the Old Testament.
The representation of the creation of man attributes the act to Jesus Christ, not the pre-incarnate logos.
The idea of Jesus Christ being at the side of God the Father is a central theme in the discussion.
Time perception varies among different creatures, and this affects how we understand divine actions.
Animals adapt to physical changes differently than humans, reflecting a different consciousness and time experience.
The discussion of Angels and their actions, such as the fall, is complicated by our limited understanding of their time experience.
Heavenly beings like Angels do not experience time in the same way humans do, challenging our conventional understanding.
Applying human concepts of time and space to divine beings is a projection of our limited understanding.
Father Dumitru Staniloae's 'Orthodox Dogmatics' discusses God's supra-essential attributes beyond spatial and temporal categories.
The concept of omnipresence in Western theology is misunderstood; God is everywhere and nowhere in a supra-essential sense.
Christ's Incarnation is presumed to involve a human experience of time, which may not be accurate.
Christ's ascension into heaven is viewed as an eternal act, beyond human concepts of time.
The Eucharist debate between Calvinists and Lutherans touches on the nature of Christ's physical presence.
Christ's body in heaven is not limited by time or space, reflecting a divine perspective on physicality.
Christ's actions, such as the Incarnation, are eternally true and enter human consciousness at specific points in history.
The lamb slain before the foundation of the world represents the eternal truth of Christ's sacrifice entering human experience.
Transcripts
how can I say this the idea for example
that the CR that the man Jesus Christ
created the world for example you find
that in some in some text you see that
in Saint Maximus has some crazy sayings
you know when while he was on the cross
he was creating the world like all these
types of contradictions but for sure in
the in the iconography it was preserved
very attentively so until the 14th
century you when you see God represented
anywhere in in the Old Testament it's
always Christ and so when you see the
creation of man you see Christ and it's
Jesus Christ right it's it's it's not a
it's like it's not the pre-incarnate
logos it's it's the man uh Christ who is
creating the world and it seems like
it's a it's a continuation of that image
you know of the son of man the idea
would be something like although in
terms of time it doesn't make sense for
us but that automatically doesn't matter
the idea is that what they saw
what Daniel saw was Jesus Christ at the
side of God the Father
yeah yeah and
the the time problem is
is because of the type of creatures we
are
right we were talking you know we
mentioned Nago what is it like to be a
bat right animals don't experience time
the same way we do
right there are all different ways in
which their Consciousness is different I
was recently watching a thing about a
dog that had to have a leg amputated
and animals adapt to that kind of thing
almost instantly humans go through all
kinds of right because we have a
different kind of bodily awareness than
an animal has
right so an animal's just I have three
legs now okay right yeah there's no
morning yeah
um so that includes the experience of
time
and so
uh we want to
apply our experience of time to for
example Angelic beings so this comes up
a lot with Lord of spirits stuff because
it's well when did the Angels Fall yeah
right it's sort of like well what time
is it in heaven right now like what time
zone are they on right
um
we're projecting right our experience
onto beings that are not like us whose
Consciousness is different than us I do
experience time in a different way and
there's this huge break point as soon as
you try to get to God yeah
right now you know and so time and space
are really
attributes of created things yeah
right and we've been taught in in
Western theology here right we talk
about omnipresence
you know well God's everywhere right it
created Things Early in one place at one
time but he's in all the places all the
time right that's not really what that
means right you read father dumitrus
Standalone is really good on this in his
Orthodox dogmatics right he has talks
about God's attributes being Supra
essential
so it's equally true to say God is
everywhere and to say that he's nowhere
yeah
right and that basically what we mean is
these spatial categories don't apply to
God
these uh temporal categories don't apply
to God when we say he's Eternal yeah
right and so when we talk about
um
Christ
before
yeah for the Incarnation the Incarnation
that's presuming that
Christ as God experiences time the way
we do
that there was this before and after and
over and over again in our dogmatics in
our hypnography and everything it talks
about how Christ took out our human
nature Christ we came in without change
or alteration yeah and I don't think we
take that seriously enough
yeah we we have this idea that that
because we say things like Christ
ascended into heaven and his and and his
body is there next to the father but we
now we think that that's in time it's
like well wait a minute
like yeah yeah and that was you know
sorry calvinist I gotta get one of these
in here right that was that was the
Calvinists it wasn't Calvin himself but
that was the calvinist whole argument
against Luther on the Eucharist was it
can't be Christ's body because Christ's
body is in heaven right yeah it's in
that place so it can't be all these
other people
yeah yeah what's going on what's going
on yeah so there so there's an
interesting idea which is something like
when Christ ascended into heaven he
ascended into heaven from the beginning
like he ascended into heaven from
forever like from Beyond time let's say
like that there is no that he entered
into that it that that that Christ's
body is is in
is in God right it's not it doesn't it
doesn't it is not no longer it is not
yeah it's not limited by time or space
ultimately right it's not a question of
time and change that we experience yeah
there are points where these realities
enter into the realm of human
consciousness right
yeah that's the best way to explain it
there are points in in our history in
our human history where the fall of
certain Angelic beings entered into our
conscious experience
there's a place where Christ's
Incarnation entered into our conscious
experience but it's not that it wasn't
true before that yeah
right that's why he's the lamb slain
before the foundation of the world
yeah I've been quoting that verse a lot
these days
right I mean that's so that these things
are eternally true but they enter into
time and space right and our experience
in a particular way yeah
because of the type of beings that we
are
foreign
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