EXCLUSIVE: Sit-down with Former President Jacob Zuma
Summary
TLDRIn an exclusive interview, former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses the political landscape following the 2024 general elections. He addresses his role in establishing a new political party, the MK, amidst claims of the ANC's deviation from its original vision. Zuma vehemently denies accusations of vengeance and emphasizes his commitment to the liberation and advancement of black South Africans. He also touches on the challenges he faced with the judiciary and his enduring anger over perceived injustices, while dismissing notions of state capture and the influence of his daughter on his political decisions.
Takeaways
- 😀 Former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses his role in the 2024 general elections and the launch of the MK political party.
- 🏛️ Zuma emphasizes his deep-rooted commitment to politics due to his involvement in the struggle for black liberation in South Africa.
- 🎯 He claims that the ANC has strayed from its original vision and that he is fighting to correct the course of the party and the country.
- 👥 Zuma criticizes the current leadership of the ANC, accusing them of not listening to the party and making decisions that are detrimental to the organization.
- 🤔 He hints at serious issues and conflicts within the ANC that he may reveal in a future book but does not elaborate in detail during the interview.
- 🚫 Zuma vehemently denies that his actions are driven by vengeance or personal animosity towards the current ANC leadership.
- 📉 The interview touches on the dismal election results for the ANC and the potential implications for the country's political landscape.
- 📊 Zuma disputes the election results, suggesting there were irregularities and that the IEC (Independent Electoral Commission) may have mishandled the vote count.
- 🤝 He addresses the possibility of coalitions and government formation, stating that all parties are in discussion but he has not been directly involved in such talks.
- 📖 Zuma expresses his anger over his legal battles, particularly his contempt of court case, and asserts that the judiciary was wrong in their handling of his case.
- 👨👧👦 Finally, he dismisses claims that his daughter is influencing his political actions, asserting his independence and long history in politics.
Q & A
What is the main reason former President Jacob Zuma started a new political party?
-Former President Jacob Zuma started a new political party due to his belief that the ANC had derailed from its original vision and was no longer listening to its members or the needs of the people. He felt the need to correct the direction the ANC was taking.
How does Zuma describe his motivation for entering politics?
-Zuma describes his motivation for entering politics as a genuine desire to liberate black people and fight for their freedom, which he says is in his blood and not driven by a desire for money or power.
What does Zuma believe is the current state of the ANC?
-Zuma believes that the ANC has strayed from its original mission and that the current leadership is not listening to the party or the people. He suggests that the ANC has become something else that needs to be corrected.
How does Zuma respond to accusations of him being a 'disruptor' in the 2024 general elections?
-Zuma disagrees with the label of being a 'disruptor'. He asserts that he did not disrupt the elections but rather established a political party to contest against the ANC, which he believes had strayed from its principles.
What was Zuma's reaction to the election results showing his party, MK, gaining significant votes?
-Zuma seems to have expected the significant number of votes for his party, MK, as he mentions that he would not have tried to launch the party if he knew it was not going to work. He believes the results reflect the people's dissatisfaction with the ANC.
What does Zuma say about his relationship with the current ANC leadership?
-Zuma indicates a strained relationship with the current ANC leadership, stating that they are not listening to the party or the people and that they have made decisions that have taken the ANC away from its intended path.
What does Zuma believe the role of his new party, MK, should be in South African politics?
-Zuma believes that the role of his new party, MK, should be to correct the direction of the ANC and to ensure that the policies decided by the people of South Africa are implemented, not just by the ANC.
How does Zuma view the concept of 'state capture' in relation to his term in office?
-Zuma dismisses the concept of 'state capture' during his term in office, arguing that if the three arms of government (Parliament, executive, and Judiciary) were captured, they would not be able to function and should handle the case themselves.
What is Zuma's stance on the possibility of a coalition government with the ANC?
-Zuma does not explicitly state his stance on a coalition government with the ANC in the interview. However, he implies that he is open to discussions with other parties to correct the situation in South Africa.
How does Zuma respond to claims that his daughter is influencing his political actions?
-Zuma strongly denies that his daughter is influencing his political actions, stating that he has been in politics long before she was involved and that it is 'shameful' for people to suggest otherwise.
Outlines
🗳️ Political Disruption and New Beginnings
Former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses the impact of his newly launched political party on the 2024 general elections. He refutes claims of causing disruption, instead framing his actions as a strategic political move. Zuma emphasizes his deep-rooted commitment to politics due to his history as a freedom fighter and his desire to liberate black people in South Africa. He also hints at future revelations in a book he plans to write, detailing the reasons behind his establishment of a new political party and his departure from the ANC.
🛡️ From Freedom Fighter to Political Disillusionment
The conversation delves into Zuma's evolution from a soldier in the MK, the military wing of the ANC, to a disillusioned leader who feels the party has strayed from its original vision. He explains his decision to leave the ANC and the circumstances leading up to it, including his removal from office in 2018. Zuma criticizes the current ANC leadership for not adhering to the principles of the National Democratic Revolution and for ignoring the voices of the people and the party's veterans.
🚫 The Break from ANC and the MK Party's Formation
Zuma details his decision to form a new political party, the MK party, as a response to the ANC's direction under its current leadership. He speaks about the lack of internal democracy within the ANC, his inability to voice his concerns, and the party's refusal to address the issues he raised. Zuma also addresses the loyalty of some ANC members and the surprise of the MK party's establishment, emphasizing the need for secrecy to ensure its success.
🔑 The Undercurrents of Political Strategy
In this segment, Zuma discusses the strategic approach he took to establish the MK party, using his 'underground training' to avoid detection and ensure the party's successful launch. He addresses the election results and the public's reaction to his new party, as well as the controversy surrounding certain individuals like Mashaba and the Ramaphosa issue within the ANC. Zuma maintains that his actions are not driven by vengeance but by a genuine desire to correct the course of the ANC and South African politics.
💔 Disagreements on ANC's Direction and Leadership
Zuma expresses his dissatisfaction with the ANC's current trajectory and the leadership's refusal to acknowledge and correct its mistakes. He criticizes the lack of internal checks and balances within the party and the fear that has paralyzed its leadership. The former president also discusses his own experiences with the judiciary, hinting at perceived injustices and his commitment to fighting for what he believes is right.
🏛️ The Challenge to South Africa's Democratic Institutions
The discussion turns to the implications of Zuma's actions on South Africa's democratic institutions, including the IEC and the judiciary. He accuses the IEC of mishandling votes and undermining democracy, and he defends his legal challenges as a fight for truth and justice. Zuma also addresses the uncertainty surrounding the formation of the government and the potential impact on the country's stability.
🤝 The Possibility of Political Alliances and Coalitions
Zuma is asked about the potential for coalitions and alliances, particularly with the ANC, given the current political climate. He denies having received any calls from the ANC and states that he is focused on addressing the issues within the ANC and the country. Zuma also comments on the idea of a government of national unity and the challenges of forming a stable government without a clear majority.
🚫 Unwavering Stance on Injustice and Future Prospects
In the final part of the interview, Zuma reflects on his experiences with the judicial system and his anger over perceived injustices. He also addresses rumors about his daughter's influence on his political actions and reiterates his commitment to fighting for the freedom and rights of black South Africans. The conversation concludes with a look at the potential outcomes of the current political situation and the challenges ahead for South Africa's democracy.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Eyewitness News
💡Jacob Zuma
💡MK
💡ANC
💡Disruption
💡Liberation Movement
💡State Capture
💡Coalition
💡Parliament
💡Quorum
💡Contempt of Court
Highlights
Former President Jacob Zuma discusses his motivations for establishing a new political party, emphasizing his deep-rooted commitment to the liberation and betterment of black South Africans.
Zuma refutes claims of being a 'disruptor' in the 2024 general elections, stating he merely provided an alternative political party to contest against the ANC.
He shares his political journey, from fighting for freedom to becoming a politician, highlighting his genuine desire to liberate black people and not pursuing politics for personal gain.
Zuma explains the historical context and the evolution of his political beliefs, including the influence of the British in shaping his early political engagement.
The former president outlines his reasons for leaving the ANC, citing a departure from the original vision of the National Democratic Revolution and a lack of responsiveness from the current leadership.
Zuma criticizes the current ANC leadership for making decisions that divert from the party's foundational principles and for not addressing serious issues he raised within the party.
He discusses his experience of being removed from office as the head of state, suggesting it was due to his efforts to steer the ANC back to its original path.
Zuma addresses the controversy surrounding the establishment of the MK party, emphasizing the need for secrecy and strategic planning to ensure its success.
The former president denies allegations of vengeance against the ANC, stating his actions are driven by a desire to correct the country's course and not personal animosity.
Zuma expresses his anger and disappointment over the handling of his legal battles, particularly his contempt of court charges and subsequent sentencing.
He comments on the current political climate, including the uncertainty of the 2024 elections and the potential implications for South Africa's governance.
Zuma discusses the possibility of coalitions and his stance on engaging with the ANC, emphasizing that he is open to dialogue but has conditions.
The former president addresses accusations of state capture during his term, questioning the validity of the term and the logic behind the accusations.
Zuma responds to rumors about his daughter's influence on his political decisions, asserting his independence and experience in making political choices.
He outlines the conditions under which he would consider working with the ANC, rejecting the idea of preconditions in negotiations and emphasizing the need for open dialogue.
Zuma concludes the interview with a reflection on his political journey and a reaffirmation of his commitment to the principles that have guided his actions.
Transcripts
hello welcome to an eyewitness news
special I'm coming to you from Ganda you
know who lives in Ganda former president
Jacob Zuma he is I think the leader of
the story of the elections the great
disruption of the
2024 general elections We join him now
from his home in Ganda former president
thank you so much for making time to
chat to us welcome to eyewitness news
thank you you are the great disruptor
people might make an argument that Paul
suggested you do as well as you did many
of us went ah it's impossible cope did
well e that sustained its arrival but I
don't think people saw over 2 million
votes the mk's launch has been quite
spectacular I want to understand how
does one even go about it I was the Ino
when you launched the MK where you
announced that you can no longer vote
for the NC but I did not think it would
result in sitting at the I and watching
the numbers telling the way that they
did how do you even go about it how do
you even start to try and launch
something against the so-called Mighty
ANC I did not disrupt I just want to
disagree there oh disruption but okay I
didn't disrupt I just established a
political party to
contest to other parties uh uh and I had
very serious reasons why I did
so firstly I think it is important to
take into account that I am a
politician not just a politicians by
loving it or being whatever I am a
politician I think politics I plan
politics strategy tactics and everything
so it's not a small
matter uh and I would not have tried it
if I knew it was not going to
work I did so because I knew it well for
a variety of reasons that one day when I
write my book I would tell a full story
and what happened
Etc firstly I'm a free I come from the
freedom fighting freedom fighting kind
of
grouping I fought for my freedom in this
country for freedom of black
people and in the process of all of that
in fact I could even go back but if you
know the last battle of black and white
ended here at
inan the last one the bombata Rebellion
which
changed the the thinking of how do we
fight for our struggle
that's what led to the establishment of
politics in in South Africa from the
black people in
particular and and and and and and the
stories about that war were told here by
older people how ruthless the British
were in the camps that were putting
people and what they were doing to them
that is where my my what you call it
uh the
first first things that put me into
politics so getting into politics was
not just because I love politics it was
because of what had happened to a black
person in this country that made me to
join the struggle at my young age to
fight for The Liberation or freedom of
black people it is in my blood it is in
my vein it is in my my
marrow is not a joke I'm not doing it
because I want to make money I don't
want to do it because I just want to do
good it is a very genuine genuine desire
to liberate a black
person and that will take you back to
slavery that I think about what has been
done to black people the most
devastating
Behavior towards them and therefore to
me if I go to the struggle is not
because I love it it's because I want to
change the lives of people so it is a
serious
matter and that led me to know politics
deeper because they politicians are just
politicians or in for a
career for careers
others ER
and politics is a serious serious thing
it comes from very
far now when I took the decision that
I'm ready to lose my life for the
freedom of our black people was not a
joke that's why I joined in
1961 I mean not 61 after 1961 1962 okay
as a Liberation movement or the um the
kind of different fight than
nonviolent and I became a soldier of
MK Help Me Marry That Vision right with
the MK as you have it now as a political
party help me understand how you've
evolved from that person who was under
the NC who understood why he needed to
fight for a particular Vision to who you
are today and what it is that you're
fighting for with the MK party at that
time as you know and I've explained this
at some point there was African National
Congress thec was the only party that
was established in
1912 as a response to the white
separation and apate and and kalapa and
whatever you call it
because the organization was growing and
growing and growing when the National
Party government came into power they
then said they're not going to have a
soft cabar that was being done by the
British they brought
upate you are a CA a CA to your corner
they said so
themselves and
that in
itself led to the situation where they
came to a point to ban an illegal
organization African National Congress
was fighting nonviolent
struggle and that's what made us to say
we cannot stand for this and therefore a
a a an alternative kind of an
organization it was clear they want
wanted to fight and thec and The
Liberation movement at the time said let
us do it and there was then an
establishment well thought out
of as a military wing of the struggl in
sou yes military wing and therefore we
we we taking arms we went to train we
joined took a vow we took an Oaths and
everything we're ready to fight and die
and many did
so that then led to a long prolonged
struggle that came to a point
where the
particularly the
whites
particularly ER put under pressure by
the Western countries that they must
agree to negotiate and stop the fight
and find a way to sit together that's
what led it to what to call people call
pessa
yes that was now to say stop the war
find a way to live together that's what
we
did with process going
forward was there a lot of details
there then we reached a point where the
party that was established to liberate
people began to move off the
rail and the leaders began to be the
ones who are in charge who are doing
everything they love and therefore the
process to finalize our our freedom was
lost and the leaders were not listening
even if you wanted to listen to my
organization which had spent more than
60 years in it it became difficult it
became very
funny and
you could not correct
it when I write my book I will explain
the details not now because we've been
waiting for this book for so long no
it's coming don't worry but let's speak
come when you an old
lady but let's speak about that so you
felt that the leadership derailed away
from the vision of what the national
Democratic Revolution is that where the
ANC got lost when did you realize that
the leadership of the ANC has derailed
from the vision after you were done
quite a while while you were still
president as soon as no no no no no no
when I was a president it was not it has
not delay it was
notate so after 2017 I was removed
before I finish my my my my
terms speciic specifically because I was
moving to the direction that ANC was
established for I was removed as head of
state or as NC president as a head of
state so that's 2018
and I think you've had this conversation
with zanda from Newsroom about you being
removed about former president T Bei I
want to come back to the part where you
say it was derailed and you're tempted
to speak to the leadership of the ANC
and you ignored is that it
absolutely we I was it ended up with me
even moving away from attending the
meetings where I was a uh in terms of
our
agreement an ex official an ex official
because I realized that if I stay there
all the wrong things that were happening
I will also be blamed why why were you
there because I did not want to say to
people do this and do this and become
like a Hardy to them so I gave them an
opportunity but they continued until the
point where it became impossible I went
to the conference not as a as a
former president of thec I went there as
a member of my own Branch from here
because I wanted to argue things I was
prevented I could not do
so and I had no alternative I took a
decision this organization is no longer
the organization I know that's why I
call it
Raposa andc we'll get to the Raposa
Factor so it was when you left Naz 2.0
in 2022 that you knew you needed to
start a different organization outside
of the no no no not at that time when I
was I was was was I was up there the
last Conference of thec the very last
The Naz The Naz 2.0 second the second in
2022 yes the second Naz yeah so when you
left there were you a branch I remember
you were in the crowd with the K at and
delegates as a branch member so it was
that conference when you walked out and
you said mm I need to do something about
the NC from outside when no no no not
not when I was there much as many things
were going wrong but I was ready to
debate and I was not given a chance to
debate in the
plary and then I was directed that I
must debate whatever I wanted to debate
in the
commission I went there reluctant
because I thought this was not right but
I debated my issues there those issues
when the uh the the the reports were
given nothing was mentioned of serious
issues that I had raised in fact the ANC
did something that it has never done
since
1912 to say in a
conference we are postponing the
conference we'll come next time next
conference to finish off which deprived
me of the debate that I had made in the
commission which I wanted it to be
discussed in the
conference and that thing that they will
be there was never any conference
thereafter what was there called the
conference were different meetings held
at the same time in different places the
national executive committee and the
provinces that is not a conference and
even then were not allowed even to
debate then and it was clear to me that
this ANC is indeed something else that's
when I took a
decision to say this was this
organization firstly as a result of his
behavior the people were telling us
they're not going to vote for us as long
as we have gotos a president so it was
an open thing now I could not allow that
that's why I took a decision that I'm
not going to vote for them but I'm not
going to leave politics and I must find
a way how to stop thec from the
direction it is taking but there were
people within thec who incredibly loyal
to you that were thrown off at the
announcement of the MK party I'm
thinking
about people had been loudly boldly te
Jacob Zuma for years who was seemingly
taken by surprise did you take those
people into your confidence when you
were plotting or planning the idea of
the MK party doing what is called
underground underground don't just tell
a story I I chose people I was going to
deal with that I worked with was I I
know if I had told people that thing
would not have worked I went
underground applied my tactics apped my
underground training in order to get
where I am and asash was already kicked
out of the NC he was already left out in
the court I mean when I look at the
election results Act was dismal so to
speak why wasn't he taken along the ride
who I don't want to to talk about that
one let me not answer that one because I
don't want to talk about
mahash okay I'm going to move on from
him no no no but but maybe let me be
fair to you sure I did
inform I did not
once I did just that I was not going any
further and you still went on to
establish act well you were at a big
Orlando Stadium event he was at a church
holding a Manifesto and I actually asked
him about it I was like why would you
hold competing or events when you are
meant to be aligned and I don't know if
I got a satisfactory answer I want to
speak now to you about the ramapa issue
this ramapa NC of rapasa that you speak
about it is a message that's clearly
caught people's attention it's worked we
see the election
results what has he
done so bad in your eyes that you can't
let up that you can't let go that it is
consistent that what is wrong with the
ANC has to be this man at the helm at
the moment he misled the ANC he has
never led the ANC properly I don't don't
want to go further than that and that's
why I call it the
Raposa
andc I don't want to deal with details
of rapos that's not my intention it's
very hard when you say oh at least for
now it's very hard when you do that
because what we hear as the public is
there's an issue with the agency and
it's just man at the helm when you ask
for the an understanding you don't want
to delve deeply in into it you don't
want to take us into full confidence
about what has gone wrong I'm not going
to say to you you chose him as your
Deputy you've said in the public before
but they brought him to you during the
mangun conference to make him your
number two um I still don't know if
saying to me his misled us is sufficient
I still feel like I'm missing something
because when I look at you it feels like
you're going to Great length starting
another party and asking for people to
vote for that to make sure they bring a
party you serve for well over 60 years
under that sounds like V Vengeance
Vengeance yeah it's more than just the
surface level oh you we dislike you it
feels deeper than that so that's why I
keep asking for a little bit more around
what the issue is around the current ANC
president no I've said I've said to you
my good sister the leadership of thec
was no longer listening to itself
listening to his party rather to party
and and and and making a lot of
decisions that were taking the ANC away
from where we need to
be now one of the issues I raised why I
call it the problem was with the
leadership was leaders historically in
the a if the leader was doing something
wrong other leaders will deal with the
matter and correct it you had leaders
that were no longer correcting anything
and there are reasons they feared this
man on a number of issues these are the
matters I don't want to deal with it at
this stage do you know there was a time
where they said the same thing exact
same thing about you sorry do you know
there was a time they said the exact
same thing about you in the leadup to
2017 they would say oh we can't current
correct them internally ah the NEC is
paralyzed because they fear that
President they used to say the exact
same thing about you when you're a
leader well that is their own business
what I did when I was in charge I
changed things things in this country
and they written down I came with
everything and some people hated that
they did not want me to change this
country that was a hatred if at all they
hated me I was never I have never
terrorize anyone and the most
sweet I don't know Absolutely I'll make
up my mind at the end of this interview
um you you you you speak about um there
something I've not lost my trail of
thought you you lost me there by telling
me you're sweet when no actually I'm
going somewhere um I'm just sweet no no
let me I I let's see this bit to show
that there's something wrong with the
ANC where does it stop because South
Africans also watch this war between
different kinds of NC and worry that it
will take the country down with it what
do you say to the Africans who say geez
how long will these former States
the these leaders fight at what cost
will you continue in a fight to prove
your point that there's something wrong
with the ANC no no no I've never fought
anybody in the ANC never you fighting
grandmaa now even through the ballots as
I'm saying I'm a very sweet person if I
was fighting him I wouldn't be I
wouldn't be sweet he wouldn't be where
he is if I was I'm very sweet and I've
never fought I'm AOS I've I've
criticized roposa where he's going wrong
for an example like when he said thec
was number one corrupt
organization I wrote a response I
remember that to say no I was not
fighting him I was just telling him you
are wrong that's not that's not the way
I also can tell you something you don't
know maybe just one piece was we looking
forward yes I
want when when when a campaign by thec
which is included him were saying I must
resign from the ANC before I finished
the what call before 2017 yes I realized
that this is going to make the ANC fight
within itself on my own I asked to see
him to discuss that matter with his
secretary Kul mahash and I met with them
in Cape Town and I said I've taken my
decision to resign as a as a as a
president of thec because I don't want
thec to fight because of me so I've
taken a decision to resign I then
explain how I was going to do it and
what will I do and every other thing and
I said I'm trying to avoid the fight
within
thec and I said report it to the
national executive committee and this is
what I think we should do I'm ready to
go when when I'm leaving this is what I
want to do I gave him the period and the
reasons why he never came back to M to
report what was the response of the
leadership but this is now a decision to
resign from head of state after 2017 yes
okay and that and and and he will tell
you because he did not come back to me
until we had a meeting with the
officials
later and I said to him
on that
day I said never meet me never asked to
see me I said it in a meeting of the
official top
six because you have disappointed you
are not a leader I told him is not a
leader don't respect him because I gave
him a serious discussion to make the
organization not fight and it
disappeared he never came back can I ask
you reported and I said
sorry because for me you have proved
that you are not the leader can I ask
you when this actually happened because
you stepped down as Head of State in
February of
2018 he became NC president December
2017 so this is a conversation and
deliberations between those two windows
do you remember when it was exactly no
no no I when I said that he was the
president already I had been out for for
for a while the that meeting itself not
that was called by him I went to brief
my leaders in the
province what had
happened they then went to the national
executive committee because they were
hearing this for the first time as you
are hearing it for the first time I'm a
little bit confused by the timeline
that's why I'm a little looking at you
like this is no I I was no longer there
I was sitting here I just felt it needed
I needed it to go and Bre the lead to
inform them that did try to resign
before and he took it nowhere who you
told you told them that you had told I
told I told them what I'm telling you
yes yeah I told them and I said this has
this has been my problem with them I
needed them to know because they mustn't
see me being having a different Behavior
they must know exactly and they then
went to raise the
matter and then that's what led to the
meeting of the working comit where I
told him I don't trust him I don't think
he's a serious leader I told him there
it was necessary for me to do so I'm
just explaining to you so that you
shouldn't say I'm just talking there are
things that I discussed with him
properly politically and
otherwise I want to go back to the
question I was trying to ask you now in
you say you're not fighting but actually
when you start a political party to take
down the governing party that is a fight
whichever way you want to describe it
what is it no no no you can't say all
these parties
that they fighting they not you're
competing you're in a space where you're
you're in competition compet comp
competing and fighting they are two
different
[Music]
things depends on the day okay let's put
it this way you start an organization to
compete with the governing party compete
ah it must be something organization in
order to correct this country in my
speech are you correcting the country
correcting in this in the speeches that
I've made I've said I want to rescue
thec can't be fighting it so in your bit
to rescue thec the question some of us
as a country have
is will we pay the price of you
attempting to rescue the ANC at all you
will actually be happy as you can see
how happy South Africans are today with
Condes you be happy we're not happy
we're in limbo we don't have an outright
party that's won the elections none of
those parties won the elections there's
no outright winner we don't know how
governments are going to be formed we
don't know whether or not we should be
scared I don't believe the markets must
dictates how we are as a country I
believe a political party that cares
about our well-being matters the most
only only if they had
counted the votes of MK there would be
no problem would we have a party that
cares about us though if that was the
case if the two-thirds majority that the
MK has been selling us was actually the
truth would we be well taken care of as
a country I don't know that tell you
will feel if by now you'll be feeling
that we are now there I don't know
because I also don't agree and I'm a
little bit confused about your policies
but I'll talk to you about that in two
seconds no you shouldn't if if you're
are an African you shouldn't I am an
African you post your left but your
policies are right so a little bit
confused your policies AR they're not
Progressive they're
Progressive not all of them L my we are
talking
about free education is that not
Progressive we're talking about a when
black children can't study when there's
enough money you can't tell me that if
if we say we bring we talking about
sending pregnant girls to Robin Island
we're talking about the things that
you've spoken about not are progressive
we speaking about queer rights we
speaking about listen listen listen
listen I'm not sending them to Robin
Island to prison to that they must have
F education so that they are educated
they can come and be useful in this
country talk saying you can't have
little kids of 15 having children all
over this country and you think no but
you also can't punish them I'm not
saying it's freedom but you also can't
punish them in fact those children been
raped that's actually what it is I'm not
punishing them I'm forcing them to study
and be the doctors and everything and
come back and save this country but
that's also enough you must have time to
debate this with me have let's have a
day let's have a day cuz we can take
each other on there I firmly believe
that the MK party postures left but
isn't left um we'll talk about another
day because then we must add the issue
of ethn
nationalism conversation I want to help
you because you'll realize we are
builing in South Africa all your black
kids are drinking from morning to today
we don't want that for them we don't
want them for we don't want it for them
we don't want our children hooked on
subst so we are the only party that has
talked about it no you're not cuz I've
read so many manifestors them and I say
no you're not but I want to move away
from that so so you so so you say to me
that
um there would there would be some
stability if the MK party was in but I'm
saying to you sou Africans feel that
this issue that you have with the
NC is one that could actually still cost
the country that we are torn between
different aspects factions permutations
of the ANC that are fighting each other
competing correcting whichever where you
want to put it but you have two
different views from the NC that are
clashing at the expense of the country
which are these views one that is
carried by you via the MK party now I'm
not in thec in that way I I with my
membership there I said so I am a leader
of to correct the wrongs and partly thec
under the leadership we have now they
are the ones who need to be
corrected I'm I'm I'm you know that in
the in the the in the policy of the ANC
we
say we've got a freedom chart yes whichc
has forgotten about nothing's been done
which will change the lives of the
people in this country and this is what
we're going to do to carry out the
correct policies that were decided by
the people of South Africa not just by
the ANC so the view that you testing
institutions of institutions of
democracy to prove a point is unfair or
is it fair which one democracy Now The
View that you're testing the tenants
that are upholding our democracy to
prove a point is that accurate this is
now obviously looking at the court
looking at the IEC is that a correct
assumption that look here's a person
who's testing the very might of these
institutions and their ability to do
their job the
IEC the IEC took our votes gave them to
other party that's not democracy that's
not
democracy the
I said there was a crash
when when there was no crash when they
were taking our vote we've got evidence
that's why I've charged them so you
you've gone the legal democracy no
you've gone the legal Ro we say don't
don't stand saying you are now giving
the numbers because we are complaining
we are a long list of parties they don't
listen that's not
democracy I disagree with you that's not
democracy it's not democracy no what you
are doing is democracy absolutely there
are around 50 I want the truth to be
told who actually won we don't know
right
now that's that's a reality we are
dealing with from contres we want the
truth we want people to deal with things
properly we want people to respect other
people you're not satisfied with the 2
million odd votes you believe you you
are owed more absolutely not that I
believe I know I've I told them I've got
facts and I've I've I've got facts as a
result your 58 MPS are they going to
parliament are they not going how long
will they not go if they're not going no
if there is a law that says if there is
no uh what is it
called which one I don't know what
you're referring to you tell me if
there's a law that is called what are we
speaking about the election of a
president the speaker I speak about the
Declaration of the elections yes which
one are we going to done when when
declaration when there is a huge number
that is not in
Parliament or the election of President
yes it can be done can 130 MPS need to
be in that house there will be 130
without your 58 no no no
no I'm willing to take a bit on that one
with you if there are chairs that are
empty is not is not there's no quum are
you going to take other MPS from other
parties and ask them not to attend we
are all compl laining it's not only me
but the parties that are complaining
alongside you are parties that that are
4,000 votes act that's got how many
13,000 the parties that are complaining
are not in Parliament they don't have
seats our membership if MK is not there
there's no C in in Parliament I beg to
differ but let's wait and see let's wait
and see if I'm right what happens I've
been in Parliament my
de I haven't been but I feel like I'm
right I've been there before if I'm
right what do you what
and if I'm right I'll give you a
cow oh my go I want my cow cuz I know
you please deliver a car to the east of
Johannesburg you want me a cow um I
don't know where I would put it in find
Space in My Father's yeah don't you
worry but you ow me a cow um where does
it end for you this issue no before I
actually get there let's speak a little
bit about uh jablan kumalo yes there's a
court matter but he's actually on your
parliamentary list so as it is it hasn't
been altered we are taking him out you
missed the deadline to alter it no no we
we take him don't worry we can't see he
not our in our in our he is not in our
party we chased him out of our party
there's not democracy that can say
somebody can
come he's not a
member you know how Parliament works as
you said you've been in Parliament I
haven't you know that you have to resign
and once your name is in you can't be
fired he has to write a resignation
letter and remove himself I saw the list
today of coite
democracy because you can't have a man
who's chased out from his party and he
see that by by force because the the
what call democra must do so where do
you to get that from it's not in our
party he was chased away he has a letter
was written at give we were sitting here
when I gave I heard about that meeting
so what happens when he goes to
Parliament and he sits there 57 of your
members are not there our part is not
going to agree there's no Parliament
that's going to force you with a member
who's not your party it can't be he can
go there to show to be it okay so that's
the issue of Jan kumalo you are clear on
that what if he wins the court case he
can't win the court case he can't what
if he does no he can't I told you you
can't
was he's lying he's a
liar um Mr Zuma let's speak a little bit
about other parties like the EFA for
instance why should I discuss other part
I'm going to ask I'm going to speak
about Coalition I'm going to coalitions
to
discuss I'm I feel like I must give up
no let's speak about no I'm not going to
give up actually I've got another one
it's fine I've got another one um let's
speak a little bit about coalitions the
NC looks like it's leading towards a
government of national Unity some people
are speaking about a minority government
I've heard they've attempted to call the
MK party to ask for you to come on board
have you received calls from the ANC
what is your position no I I I'm I'm not
sure I don't want know normally I don't
want to discuss other people the general
is not my
habit I think all
parties are meeting and talking and
talking to one another let us leave it
at that rather than to isolate others
and say one blah I think at the moment
nobody can say I'm making a government
was a majority that's natural is going
to call people to talk in order to have
enough numbers to establish a government
they'll call you maybe if they do
they've been calling me or they have you
been answering their phone calls no not
yet I know they did not necessarily call
me by phone they send people to say they
going to talk
your response is I I'm I'm I'm I'm still
here I'm still dealing with the issues
of not correcting the dealing with the
what to call the counting and everything
that's what but I'm not not saying I'm
not saying I'm not going to talk to
other party whatever happen we be
talking to the party I have been talking
to the parties even even long before I
made an announcement was I knew where I
was going I'm very clear I'm not doing
this for the sake of winning and what
I'm doing this to correct our situation
that is not complete that we as black
people are not
free and I can give you ly of of the
reasons why that's what I'm dealing with
I'm not dealing with wanting to lead now
whatever I'm dealing with the the whole
issue of us not being free I come from
jail without a case
well the judges were angry with me
because I was telling them the truth and
they took me to prison this is for being
contempt of the Constitutional Court
exactly for being in contempt of the
cons their own dis their judge was was
doing that thing we are talking about I
still say to you that one is for being
in contempt of the Constitutional Court
that's how I understood
it you want me to tell you the story no
I don't want you to tell me the story I
want us to move to other things
there is a law in South Africa that says
if you are in a commission or somewhere
you say to whoever is Ching I don't want
to because you're not going to
beti to me what does the law says what
what must that person do consider it
they don't owe you a yes they must
consider it you can't by law if I say I
don't trust you you are going to be
biased with me you can't force yourself
to go the Lord does not say but I want
to I I I what that's I'm telling you
that's made that's where the problem
begins I'm hearing you about when the
problem begins instead of sharing giving
it to somebody else chief justice
Raymond Z exactly and he uses off being
a chief justice to instruct his people
to charge me and to sentence me to two
years it's never such a thing in any
democracy in any situation
so I couldn't be those judges by not
helping him they were themselves doing a
wrong thing are you I'm not coming to
your court if that's a case I fought for
this Freedom they didn't are you angry
about the way that was handled
absolutely do you remain angry
absolutely I will remain angry until I
die because they were
wrong they were totally wrong The Judge
first was wrong they were wrong and I
will never accept it even today they get
can repeat it I will go to jail if if if
their jail is to give is to is to put
people there who have no crime just
because they hated that goes to my
earlier question when I said to you to
what end I asked you if it's Vengeance
earlier on I ask you whether or not some
of the things that you're doing are
because you're angry and it Vengeance So
when you say you'll be angry until you
die talk I ask you is that what's your
driving force because the judges are
there to be
honest to judge people properly if they
don't do it they're not going to be my
friends I want to go back to I'm going
to go back to the issue of Coalition
because that's where we were sand has
written a letter who sand General nyanda
M he says it's an outrageous idea that
the NC would want to talk to the mkp
about coalitions the same yand let me
finish the same Yanda who celebrated
your win back in poan 2007 when you
watched that where a completely
different attitude has been taken
posture to who you are then versus now
what comes to mind nothing serious come
to mind that's not my
worry of of of yand it's not my
worry and then everybody says you got
rid of Zuma because of State capture if
you allow him back in you're opening the
door back to what went wrong during his
term of office what do you say who term
of office there are people who also say
if the NC seeks to work with you because
some in the NC want to work with the MK
party others say if you do that you're
opening the door back for state state
capture to happen we are past that I
don't we know what the state capture
really because in my own language I I
don't understand because if you want to
talk about the state
capture you are talking
about
Parliament executive and
Judiciary if these three were captured
they couldn't study I mean themselves
deal with
themselves does not make sense I said
this even when it was being said the
state capture what does it mean what it
mean those three arms are captured how
can they then it should be them who who
who look after the case what have you
done I mean it's it's Madness in myew
I'm almost done I really am um under
what conditions minus the issue of the
president of the NC cuz they said that's
an non-negotiable would you be willing
to work with the
NC no that one I'm not going to be
answering it because you know very well
but they said it's a no goal it's a
non-negotiable who no goal their
president is a no goal who their
president they president yes is they not
go when it comes to negotiations they're
open to talking about everything except
for calls for their president to go so
what else what other conditions you
can't say you want to negotiate and put
conditions even before we talk that
tells you there's something I don't want
to involve myself in that one you can't
say want to negotiate but not about our
pres what is that you don't want to
negotiate because if you want to
negotiate to say I want to negotiate you
then negotiate if those issues arise in
the process you can then discuss you
can't put a condition you want to
discuss with me but put a not this one
it's never done that way really and then
my Parting Shot um a lot of people speak
about your relationship with your
daughter and some people feel
particularly in the NC NC some people
feel that part of what's happening is
cuz she's egging you on they don't
believe it's you they believe it's your
daughter pushing you in this direction
your response to that what does she know
about about about my politics
can I be pushed my child by my child you
can't you see that there's something
wrong with these people I mean a child
who found me being a I was already in
Exile I've been in politics long time
ago have done a lot of them including
going to prison taking my decisions
somebody one day say it is this child
that is making zum to what it is Shame
Shame
okay thank you for your time so so wait
hold on your parliamentarians they will
not go for the election or the voting of
a president when will they go to
Parliament no if if we do so if if if
there is
no quum that par that Parliament
collapses it collapses they can't go
there with members who are not there
that's not
Parliament remember if they manage to
elect a speaker a deputy and a president
you owe me a carow I'll send you my
address in the Easter end I'll I'll I'll
I I'll push the cow from here through a
what call a road three what is it called
ENT entry the entry that's right on the
road I'm taking to a lady in
Johannesburg oh thank you so much former
president Jacob Z speaking to us there
about a myriad of things a very
difficult person to interview but anyway
um some of his thoughts on some of the
conversations many are having at this
point in time for Eyewitness News my
name is TD Mia
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