Cynthia Lummis: The BITCOIN Act - BTC in U.S. Reserves?

Summary

In this episode of Bankless, Senator Cynthia Lummis discusses her proposal for the U.S. to establish a strategic Bitcoin Reserve, akin to Fort Knox, to hold 1 million Bitcoins. She believes this could address the nation's $35 trillion debt problem without additional borrowing. The conversation covers the potential for a global Bitcoin arms race, the importance of being an early adopter, and the political implications of such a move. The bill also touches on the affirmation of individual rights to self-custody of Bitcoin and the potential impact on the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Takeaways

• 😀 Senator Cynthia Lummis, a strong advocate for Bitcoin and crypto, has authored a bill proposing the U.S. to accumulate 1 million Bitcoins for a strategic reserve, likening it to a 'Fort Knox of crypto'.
• 💼 The bill suggests leveraging the current undervalued gold certificates from the 1970s, revaluing them to the current market value of gold, and using the difference to purchase Bitcoin.
• 💰 The U.S. already holds around 200,000 Bitcoins, primarily acquired through asset forfeitures like the Silk Road case, which if included in the strategic reserve, would put the country 20% of the way toward the 1 million Bitcoin goal.
• 🌐 The strategic reserve concept has gained attention, with some presidential candidates, including Trump, showing support for similar ideas, indicating a potential bipartisan interest in cryptocurrency strategies.
• 📉 Senator Lummis believes that a Bitcoin reserve could help address the U.S.'s $35 trillion debt problem by providing a hard asset that could counterbalance the devaluation of the U.S. dollar.
• 🔒 The bill includes provisions for state-of-the-art security measures, suggesting a distributed storage approach for the Bitcoins, ensuring their safety and integrity.
• 🏛️ The legislation also aims to halt the current practice of selling seized Bitcoins and instead incorporate them into the strategic reserve, aligning with the long-term 'buy and hold' strategy associated with Bitcoin.
• 📈 The discussion highlights the potential for a global 'arms race' in Bitcoin accumulation, where other nations might follow suit if the U.S. leads in strategic Bitcoin reserves, possibly shifting geopolitical dynamics.
• 🌐 The bill underscores the importance of the U.S. leading in the digital asset space to maintain its status as a global economic power, especially as digital currencies and assets become increasingly integral to the world economy.
• 🛡️ The legislation also seeks to affirm the right to self-custody of Bitcoin for private holders, reinforcing individual financial sovereignty and security in the digital age.

Q & A

What is the main idea behind Senator Cynthia Lummis's Bitcoin proposal?

Senator Cynthia Lummis has proposed the creation of a strategic Bitcoin Reserve in the United States, akin to the Fort Knox of crypto, to address the nation's $35 trillion debt problem by accumulating 1 million Bitcoins, which would be about 5% of all Bitcoin that will ever be mined.

How does Senator Lummis's bill suggest funding the purchase of 1 million Bitcoins?

The bill suggests revaluing gold certificates held by the U.S. government, which are currently valued at their 1970s price, to their current market value. The difference between the book value and the market value would be used to purchase Bitcoin over a five-year period.

What is the expected outcome of holding 1 million Bitcoins for 20 years according to Senator Lummis's plan?

The plan anticipates that the 1 million Bitcoins would appreciate significantly in value over 20 years, potentially reaching $17 trillion, which could help reduce the U.S. national debt by half.

Why does Senator Lummis believe Bitcoin is suitable for a strategic reserve compared to other assets?

Senator Lummis views Bitcoin as 'digital gold' due to its scarcity, with a capped supply of 21 million coins, and its decentralized nature, which makes it a hard asset that is not controlled by any government, providing a hedge against inflation and currency debasement.

How does Senator Lummis's bill address the current U.S. holdings of Bitcoin?

The bill calls for halting the sale of any confiscated Bitcoin and transferring existing forfeited Bitcoin into the strategic reserve balance sheet, ensuring it is not sold and adding to it through the proposed revaluation of gold certificates.

What is the stance of the current U.S. administration on Senator Lummis's Bitcoin proposal?

The current U.S. administration, particularly the Biden administration, has not embraced Senator Lummis's proposal, possibly due to differing views on cryptocurrency and financial policy, including influences from the more central-government focused wing of the Democratic party.

How does the bill ensure the security and integrity of the strategic Bitcoin Reserve?

The bill includes provisions for state-of-the-art security measures, including a Fort Knox type setup for cold storage of the Bitcoin, and a proof of reserve system to ensure transparency and prevent any unauthorized access or sale of the reserve.

What role do states play in Senator Lummis's strategic Bitcoin Reserve plan?

The bill allows for voluntary state participation, meaning individual states can choose to purchase Bitcoin and store it within the secure framework established for the federal strategic reserve, contributing to the overall reserve.

How does Senator Lummis's bill address the right to self-custody of Bitcoin for private holders?

The bill affirms the right to self-custody for private Bitcoin holders, ensuring that U.S. citizens have the legal right to hold and control their own Bitcoin in personal wallets without government infringement, emphasizing the permissionless nature of Bitcoin.

What are the potential international implications if the U.S. establishes a strategic Bitcoin Reserve?

The establishment of a strategic Bitcoin Reserve by the U.S. could prompt other countries to follow suit, potentially leading to a global 'arms race' for Bitcoin, which could increase the asset's value and hasten its adoption as a global reserve asset, challenging traditional financial power dynamics.

Outlines

00:00

🚀 Introduction to a Bitcoin Strategy Discussion

The paragraph introduces a hypothetical scenario where the US starts buying Bitcoin, potentially sparking a 'Bitcoin arms race' with countries like China and Russia. It sets the stage for a discussion on the concept of a strategic Bitcoin Reserve, akin to the US's Fort Knox for gold, but for cryptocurrencies. The conversation features Ryan Johan Adams and David Hoffman with Senator Cynthia Lummis, who has authored a bill for the US to purchase 1 million Bitcoins to address the nation's debt problem. The paragraph also mentions the support this idea has from certain presidential candidates and the fact that the US already holds a significant amount of Bitcoin through asset forfeiture.

05:01

🌐 Global Implications of a National Bitcoin Reserve

This section delves into the global impact of the US establishing a Bitcoin reserve, suggesting it could lead to a shift in international power dynamics. It discusses the potential for other countries to follow suit, creating a new form of competition over digital assets rather than traditional weaponry. The conversation highlights the strategic importance of being the first major economy to adopt Bitcoin at a reserve level, emphasizing the need for the US to lead in the digital asset space to maintain its status as the world's reserve currency.

10:01

💼 The Economic Strategy Behind Bitcoin Reserves

The paragraph discusses the economic strategy behind creating a Bitcoin reserve, focusing on how it could help the US manage its debt. It outlines Senator Lummis's proposal to use the difference between the book value and market value of gold certificates to purchase Bitcoin without adding to the national debt. The conversation also touches on the potential for this strategy to be seen as a form of money printing, but argues that it's a necessary step to secure the US's financial future.

15:01

🛡️ The Fort Knox of Crypto and Its Security

This section explores the concept of a 'Fort Knox of crypto,' a secure storage facility for the nation's Bitcoin reserves. It discusses the importance of state-of-the-art security measures and the potential for voluntary state participation in the reserve program. The paragraph emphasizes the need for a robust and secure infrastructure to protect the digital assets, drawing parallels to the physical security measures in place for traditional reserves like gold.

20:02

🌱 The Growth and Potential of Bitcoin as an Asset

The conversation turns to the growth potential of Bitcoin and its readiness to be considered as a reserve asset by the Federal Reserve. Senator Lummis argues that Bitcoin's characteristics, such as its scarcity and decentralized nature, make it a strong candidate for backing a fiat currency like the US dollar. The paragraph also addresses concerns about Bitcoin's relatively short history and compares the potential impact of a Bitcoin standard to the historical significance of the gold standard.

25:02

🔒 The Importance of Self-Custody and Individual Rights

This section highlights the importance of self-custody rights for private Bitcoin holders, emphasizing the individual's sovereignty over their digital assets. It discusses the bill's provisions to protect these rights and ensure that citizens have direct access to their assets without needing to rely on intermediaries like banks. The conversation also touches on personal stories that underscore the value of self-custody and the potential for Bitcoin to empower individuals globally.

30:03

🏛️ The Political Landscape of Cryptocurrency Legislation

The final paragraph delves into the political landscape surrounding cryptocurrency legislation, discussing the differing stances of various political figures and parties. It reflects on the potential impact of the upcoming election on the future of crypto legislation in the US, with a Trump win being portrayed as a 'game changer' for the industry, while a Harris win could mean a more challenging environment. The conversation concludes with a call for increased understanding and support for digital assets across the political spectrum.

Keywords

💡Bitcoin

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency, without a central bank or single administrator, that can be sent from user to user on the peer-to-peer Bitcoin network without the need for intermediaries. In the video, Bitcoin is discussed as a potential strategic reserve asset for the United States, akin to gold, and as a means to address the national debt.

💡Strategic Bitcoin Reserve

A strategic Bitcoin reserve refers to the concept of a nation-state holding a significant amount of Bitcoin as a form of national reserve asset, similar to how countries hold gold reserves. In the context of the video, Senator Cynthia Lummis proposes legislation for the U.S. to accumulate 1 million Bitcoins to diversify from physical gold into digital gold, thereby creating a 'Fort Knox of crypto'.

💡Debasement

Debasement, in the context of currency, refers to the act of reducing the precious metal content of a coinage, thus reducing its intrinsic value while keeping its face value the same. The video discusses how the U.S. dollar has been devalued over time due to excessive printing of money, and how a Bitcoin reserve could provide a hedge against such debasement.

💡Asset Forfeiture

Asset forfeiture is a legal process by which an asset is seized and then repurposing it without compensation to the owner, typically in cases of illegal activities. The script mentions that the U.S. has acquired over 200,000 Bitcoins through asset forfeiture, primarily from operations like the Silk Road, and proposes to use these in the strategic reserve.

💡Self-custody

Self-custody in the context of cryptocurrencies refers to individuals holding their own private keys, thereby having full control and access to their assets without needing a third-party intermediary. The video emphasizes the importance of self-custody rights and how the proposed legislation would protect the right of citizens to hold their own Bitcoin.

💡Proof of Reserve

Proof of Reserve is a process where a custodian cryptographically proves that they hold the reserves they claim to hold. In the video, it is mentioned as a feature of the proposed Bitcoin reserve, ensuring transparency and trust that the claimed amount of Bitcoin is actually held.

💡Debt

Debt in an economic context refers to an obligation that requires one party to pay another party a certain amount of money or financial value at a certain point in the future. The video discusses the U.S. national debt, which stands at $35 trillion, and how a strategic Bitcoin reserve could help mitigate this debt.

💡Sovereign Individual

A sovereign individual is a term that describes someone who exists outside the constraints of traditional governments and societal systems, particularly in terms of personal autonomy and self-governance. The video touches on this concept in relation to Bitcoin ownership, emphasizing the empowerment of individuals through control of their own assets.

💡Cold Storage

Cold storage in cryptocurrency terms refers to keeping cryptocurrencies offline and in a secure environment, away from internet access, to prevent hacking and theft. The video discusses the idea of storing the nation's Bitcoin reserve in cold storage to ensure its security.

💡Digital Gold

Digital gold is a term used to describe cryptocurrencies, particularly Bitcoin, that are seen as a store of value much like the precious metal gold. The video script uses this term to highlight Bitcoin's potential as a stable, long-term reserve asset for a nation's financial strategy.

💡Innovation

Innovation refers to the process of translating an idea or invention into a good or service that creates value or for which customers will pay. The video emphasizes the importance of a regulatory environment that fosters innovation in the cryptocurrency and digital asset space.

Highlights

Discussion on the hypothetical scenario of the US buying Bitcoin as a strategic move, potentially sparking a global 'arms race' for Bitcoin.

Introduction of the concept of a 'Fort Knox of crypto', a place where the US could store a significant amount of Bitcoin.

Senator Cynthia Lummis's proposal for the US to build a strategic Bitcoin Reserve, aiming to solve the national debt problem.

The idea of using gold certificates, valued at their 1970s price, to purchase Bitcoin without affecting the US balance sheet.

The potential for the US to accumulate 1 million Bitcoin, representing 5% of the total Bitcoin supply.

Senator Lummis's argument that Bitcoin can help preserve the US dollar's value and maintain its status as the world's reserve currency.

The comparison of Bitcoin to gold, highlighting Bitcoin's role as 'digital gold'.

The possibility of other countries, such as China and Russia, following suit and starting their own Bitcoin reserves.

The importance of being the first country to establish a Bitcoin reserve and the potential strategic advantages it could offer.

Discussion on the voluntary participation of US states in the strategic Bitcoin Reserve initiative.

The concept of a 'Bitcoin standard' as a potential new global standard, replacing the gold standard.

Senator Lummis's personal story highlighting the importance of individual financial sovereignty and self-custody of Bitcoin.

The inclusion of proof of reserve and the right to self-custody in the proposed legislation.

The potential impact of the US adopting a pro-Bitcoin stance on the global stage and the reaction of other countries.

Senator Lummis's views on the current political climate regarding cryptocurrencies and the need for education within Congress.

The contrast between the Republican and Democratic parties' stances on cryptocurrencies and the potential for bipartisan support.

The implications of the US leading in the adoption of Bitcoin and the potential economic and political advantages.

The potential for a strategic Bitcoin Reserve to act as a diversifier and a hedge against inflation.

Transcripts

wouldn't it be fun if the US is buying

Bitcoin and it scares China and Russia

so they start buying Bitcoin and we have

an arms race over Bitcoin instead of

over

weapons welcome to bankless where today

we explore the frontier of a strategic

Bitcoin Reserve this is Ryan Johan Adams

I'm here with David Hoffman and we're

here to help you become more bankless so

the question on the menu today what

would it look like for the US to build a

Fort Knox of crypto that's the place in

the US where it holds all of its gold

and what if we filled that Fort Knox of

crypto with 1 million Bitcoin 1 million

Bitcoin units that would be 5% of the

the uh supply of all Bitcoin Dave is

laughing here but this is actually not a

crypto fantasy it's almost sounds like a

fantasy novel that we're creating but

this is a bill an actual bill authored

by Senator Cynthia lumus and she says

it's the only way to solve the US's 3 5

trillion debt problem and she's dead

serious about it we have her on the

podcast today before you say there's no

chance anything like this could pass

like understand I I get the reaction but

I'm not actually so sure a few points of

evidence the idea of a strategic Bitcoin

Reserve already has support of two

presidential candidates including Trump

and the US is already 20% of its way to

the 1 million Bitcoin Supply it already

has 20% of that amount and also the cost

of this might be just a small small

bookkeeping change with with treasury in

the fed and a little bit of money

Printing and the US has certainly

printed money for less than

this regardless as to whether you think

that this has like no shot in Hell or

maybe it's a Hail Mary but it's just not

likely to to happen maybe that's what

you think but you do have to appreciate

a sitting us Senator Senator drafting a

bill to like get it done like at the end

of the day regardless that's like kind

of cool the fact that we're having this

conversation is crazy yeah yeah

uh like I have talked Ryan to many very

pilled people during my crypto travels

people who have taken the Bitcoin pill

and then like taken five more uh and

just have like have taken a ton ton of

Bitcoin like the the bitcoiners and like

Cynthia's up there like she's she's very

pilled uh she's a bitcoiners bitcoiner

and she also happens to be a sitting US

senator who can draft legislation and

Garner support for it and get it through

so in 2024 you got to kind of just like

appreciate for where we are in this in

this part of crypto's History all right

we're g to get right to the discussion

with Senator lumus but before we do we

want to thank the sponsors that made

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bankless Nation I'm very excited to

introduce you to Senator Cynthia lumus

she is the proc crypto Senator those are

my words I don't know if she uses those

words but I say that because I don't

think that there's anyone in the US

Senate who's a stronger crypto and

Bitcoin Advocate she gets the absolute

highest rating on the website stand with

crypto she's made over 256 public

statements about crypto but who's

counting and she's the recent author of

legislation that would have the US

purchasing 1 million Bitcoin 1 million

Bitcoin in a strategic reserve and

basically establishing a Fort Knox of

crypto senator lumus welcome to bangas

thank you Ryan it's great to be with you

and David as well um you're in Argentina

I'm very

envious uh it is winter there uh tell us

what the weather's like oh it's stormy I

had to run home and I got very wet if

being from Seattle it felt like

home is it is the winter like or the

prospects for weather getting any better

David or is it just going to be like

it's coming into Springtime but like

bonari isn't so far South that there's

any snow uh so the winter here is like

relatively

mild well um we could talk about some

seasonality with respect to our politics

because it is election season in the US

you like that segue there um but but

first Senator lumus I think we want to

talk about this big bold idea that you

have and this legislation you put

forward in in a bill um called it's

called the Bitcoin act and uh Bitcoin

stands for something uh of course the

the you like I I think there's an

acronym behind this somewhere but it in

involves establishing a strategic

Bitcoin Reserve in the United States so

I want to talk about what this bill

actually contains maybe to start but

before we get there why did you put this

forward what what is this all about it's

about our nation being $35 trillion

dollar in debt and having no

Solutions one of the things that made me

run for the US House uh in 2008 and now

again uh come back to run for the US

Senate is my concern over uh having the

us remain the world Reserve currency

with our US dollar making sure that we

have sound money making sure we do not

debase the value of the US dollar or now

that we have gotten a grade F in all of

those areas how do we fix it and that's

been

uh an ongoing challenge for me the only

thing that I have found that rationally

addresses the US debt is having a

Bitcoin Reserve so here's how it would

work we take gold certificates that are

valued right now at their

1970s value they're on the US

government's books at their 1970s

value uh we Val them at their current

value a gold is over $2,400 an ounce and

then we take the difference between

those two numbers and use it to buy

Bitcoin the Bitcoin would be purchased

over a five-year period aggregating in a

million Bitcoin that's about 5% of all

the Bitcoin that will ever be mined and

then we put it in Cold Storage put it on

ice and we let it accumulate for 20

years at which point it would cut our

current debt in half uh so it allows us

to invest in Bitcoin with no effect on

the US balance sheet no additional debt

being accumulated and yet it's

converting what we're

now seeing US Dollars being being

debased and continually declining in

value and it's putting it in Cold

Storage on an asset that is growing in

value so it's finally it's the only

thing I've ever seen that addresses our

US debt and I've been looking for this

my entire career and so I'm really

excited about it because I know it'll

work I just know it'll

work is the main logic here Senator

lumus that um we have a bunch of gold we

have the most gold uh out of anyone in

the world and you are just saying hey

let's diversify from physical gold into

also an appropriate and balanced amount

of uh digital

gold well

interestingly we can do this

without um divesting of any of our

physical gold we keep our physical gold

it's just these gold

certificates that we convert to current

market value and then put the difference

in Bitcoin so it's it's

even it yes it's a diversifier certainly

it's a diversifier but the great news is

we don't even have to sell our physical

gold to do it and it doesn't affect our

current balance sheet so it's um it

allows us to keep these two hard asset

stores of value one of them is physical

gold the other one is Bitcoin which is

digital gold uh and we hold them and let

them grow in value now what we know is

um since Bitcoin was created um its um

value has grown faster than gold and I

believe that will continue to be the

case although if you look at people who

have modeled this uh over time it its

growth

will begin to decline a little bit in

relation to its first 15 years of

existence but it will still continue to

grow and it's going to be a

hard asset that is going to help save us

from ourselves we have put ourselves in

a world of hurt it is

unsustainable what we've done to

ourselves with regard to the US debt and

so while we're also growing this hard

asset in value over 20 years years it's

helping to

underpin the US dollar uh that we're

allowing to be debased so it it kind of

has a dual purpose it's it's really

fascinating so it's like I I think if um

listeners are wondering like where

where's the money come from uh like for

this you know I I want to just maybe

repeat some of this back back to you uh

Senator and you kind of confirm this

like I guess I was looking at how much

gold the US has of course the US has the

most gold in a strategic reserve of any

country in the world um bu a lot like

over 8,000 uh you know metric tons uh it

appears at least this is according to

google maybe the US has some other

stored in other places uh and what

you're saying is like the 1970s Book

value of a lot of the gold certificates

on the treasury balance sheet and of

course Book value is just like I guess

something arbitrary it's maybe the 1970s

locked into the 1970s price is a lot

lower than the market value of those

gold certificates and so all we have to

do is uh reassign that market value to

what it should be and then there's this

excess difference in kind of like uh

treasury cash let's say uh that we can

use to go start buying some of the 1

million uh Bitcoin Supply that your Bill

calls for 1 million Bitcoin right now at

like 60k per Bitcoin at the time of

recording is about uh $60

billion um so of course the market price

will will fluctuate particularly if the

US started being a buyer of this Bitcoin

but uh some some of the the funds to buy

that Bitcoin are sort of just in the

Delta between the book value of gold

certificates on the on the FED treasury

balance sheet and the actual market

value of that gold so if this sounds

like printing money I don't know is that

what Treasury and the FED sort of does

like I guess in a way it is but I I

don't know if you have any Reflections

on that uh Senator but that's kind of

how I understand it you have described

it well that's how it works um we the

United States already has uh

around 200,000 Bitcoin so let's say we

have five years to get to a million

we're already complete with year one as

long as the Biden Administration doesn't

sell more of it the problem is they've

been selling it that's the stupidest

thing they're selling it now right

they've been selling over the last few

months yes and it's the stupidest thing

they could do they need to hang on to

the money that is in the asset

forfeiture program uh it's over 200,000

Bitcoin uh we need to hang on to it and

then add to it uh by the mechanism you

just described it is the difference or

the Delta between its Book value and the

fair market value of gold certificates

yeah if if you're curious on that

200,000 uh by the way I I read the bull

the the bill in its entirety I don't I

don't usually read bills but I just like

wanted to be informed in this and

there's there's a section in in the bill

that says basically that asset

forfeiture I did you know Bank list

listener that the US has the uh the most

Bitcoin uh like I think still more than

Michael sailor I'm actually not sure I

mean he's got he's got yeah we're almost

equal okay 200,000 we have over 200,000

China's got I think 190,000 so they're

almost as big as we are that's right and

and the the the way the US and China

have um acquired these Bitcoin are

through sort of um asset forfeiture

right so there's illegal activities of

various kinds um you know back to Silk

Road yeah Silk Road drug bus all of

these things they've require this

Bitcoin so the bill basically says like

once uh we go through the um I'm

paraphrasing like highly here but once

we go through the process U of you like

due process in the court system and we

make sure that this doesn't belong to

any US citizen that is is a truly

forfeited uh asset seizure according to

federal law then we just take that and

convert that and put that on um the US

strategic Reserve balance sheet so

rather than sell it as we're doing right

now we just keep it and so the bill

calls for a halt of all selling and to

transfer the existing uh forfeited

Bitcoin into the um the Reserve balance

sheet that's is that correct that is

correct and and one of the things that I

thought was PR particularly cynical uh

when referencing the Biden

Administration is uh I um discussed this

uh specifically and rolled it out at uh

Bitcoin 2024 in

Nashville uh president Trump came in and

advocated for what he called a Bitcoin

stockpile a strategic

stockpile uh Robert F Kennedy spoke at

advocating for an even

larger uh strategic Bitcoin Reserve than

I proposed so here are three people that

are definitely uh not in sync with the

Biden Administration and the Biden

Administration doesn't want Trump to be

elected or RFK to be elected uh and so

the Monday after the Bitcoin 2024

announcement the US sells a bunch of

Bitcoin and I thought it was actually

cynical enough that it was their way of

saying okay Trump okay RFK okay

lumus in your face we're gonna sell

Bitcoin uh today and uh I I do you think

that that was actually intentional or or

that that wasn't just a coincidence that

was actually a decided move I don't know

but it it I don't know but there there's

some discretion in terms of like like as

as you point out some this 200,000 000

plus um Bitcoin that the US has um you

know that has been forfeited and is new

custody that's been around for a long

time some of it dates back to kind of

like Silk Road uh Bitcoin 2013 2014 got

it so there's some discretion as to when

you sell it is there not like there's

not a there's not a a set of laws that

dictate hey you must sell within X years

it's just kind of sitting there and you

could sell it whenever you want to well

which is why Ry and uh we wanted to

address that in the legislation and

specifically say stop

selling put it in reserve and add to

that

Reserve has any other country done this

or the US be among the first I mean well

you know El Salvador has Bitcoin of

course a much smaller amount uh but um

there are other countries considering it

there are other states that are doing it

one of them is Louisiana

uh and I was talking to Governor uh Jeff

Landry over the weekend about it um so

uh there are um States now uh either

through their Pension funds or other

asset diversification goals uh that are

that are buying Bitcoin so there's

States and by by the way there's a

section in this bill called like

voluntary State participation right

where individual states can kind of jump

on this and and I assume because you

know part of the bill we haven't talked

but I'm sure we will is kind of the

setup of a complete self- custody of the

US government I I call this kind of like

a Fort Knox type of uh setup environment

with cold storage you know um Cutting

Edge stuff the best of the best and I

assume the voluntary State purchase of

this is basically States if you're

Louisiana if you're Texas if you're I

I'll give a a blue state if you're

California you can go uh purchase

Bitcoin and then maybe store it in in

kind of the the the S the custody

situation that the feds have put

together that's correct because the bill

proposes that not all of the Strategic

Reserve would be in the same

wallet it would be uh diversely uh

distributed uh among wallets and in in

different regions but subject to

state-of-the-art um security uh so uh we

want states to be able to participate

that

in that if they want once we have

established state-of-the-art security

for the

assets Senator I think uh all the bank

list listeners and even myself and Ryan

understand and appreciate the merits and

strength of Bitcoin I think it's number

four in the total crypto uh total market

cap of all assets out there uh but

nonetheless I think when people hear

this proposal of putting Bitcoin behind

the global Reserve currency of the

dollar inside of the fed there's like a

little of a sticker shock with that uh

it's only Bitcoin is only 15 years old

there are companies that have you know

similar market caps to bitcoin that are

older than than Bitcoin like we could be

putting apple or or you know Microsoft

as uh part of the treasury why do you

think Bitcoin is ready for like the

Federal Reserve level prime time uh like

why do you think why do you think it's

time for Bitcoin why why now

well Bitcoin uh is not issued by

government it's not particularly

regulated by government so um as a asset

backing up a fiat currency that the US

has uh it has

characteristics that make it in many

ways a harder asset than say a US Stock

uh like apple uh and uh it is such a

different asset from the US dollar from

any fiat currency uh because of its

scarcity there will only be 21 million

Bitcoin ever mind uh and it is it's

designed to be a hard asset it's

designed for

scarcity uh that it provides a certain

underpinning that the US dollar doesn't

have you know during a 22mon period

during covid the United States printed

more dollars

than had ever been printed in the whole

history of the United States uh and so

we've proven

ourselves uh incapable of disciplining

ourselves uh when it comes to preserving

the value of the US dollar we're

continually debasing the value of the US

dollar by printing too much of it and by

spending too much of it this is an asset

where neither

occurs because it is so completely

distributed and so divorced of a

government edict uh that uh it is a true

diversifier what's interesting about

this too and let let me know if this is

some of the the logic behind this

Senator David's question of like well is

it too early to do this at at there's an

element and we know of crypto holders

right we're all here early everyone

listening to bank list is it's still

early guys um it's still early um if you

wait until G7 countries and you know

China has has purchased it right then it

doesn't have the prospect that you

opened with senator of kind of reducing

the 35 trillion doll uh hole that the US

is in right you you you wait until

Bitcoin yeah you want to you got to be

if if you're trying to uh actually H app

have the value acral appreciate to the

us and knock out this $35 trillion um

debt that we have then you have to be on

the front side of this or else like the

plan doesn't work right so we're talking

about buying at you know 60k to 100K in

this uh kind of range and hopes that all

of this this Reserve this 5% this 1

million Bitcoin what appreciates to like

10 trillion 15 trillion or something

like this like you said it could cut the

um the $35 trillion uh you know debt in

half is is that the expectation here the

the expectation is that a million

Bitcoin 20 years from now would be worth

$17

trillion wow and that's why so that's

that's you know in this logic why you

have to kind of be first I noticed in

the in the bill too there's some um a

provision around basically forced

holding so none of the Bitcoin that

would be acquired in this could be sold

at all during the first 20 years is that

correct I believe that that's how we

worded it uh and and we did that

specifically so the uh accounting and

math associated with getting to that $17

trillion number plays out you know if

the United States starts getting in the

cookie

jar uh it it it won't play out it won't

work it had in order to be as

effective as a reserve um it it it must

be held Buy and Hold You Know Bitcoin is

designed

to buy and hold I mean the whole term

hoddle or hold on for dear life uh is

designed to encourage people uh to to

buy and hold this was never designed to

be an asset for day Traders uh it always

had the incidence of Long Money Slow

Money uh that people would

learn is is worth hanging on to um so

that's part of the original even

principles of Bitcoin uh and so to um

get people out of the notion of thinking

that Bitcoin is just a a different type

of asset like a stock and you can day

trade it and buy the dips and you know

sell at the highs it was never designed

for that purpose and and so we're trying

to statutorily

Institute the original purpose of

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this is uh so fascinating because and

like we are uh Bitcoin Advocates crypto

advocates in general so to like don't

don't take this the wrong way because I

I mean this in the in the best of ways

like this is an idea that's almost crazy

enough to work you know what I mean like

it's just like the way sort of the math

uh works out and particularly if the US

is behind it and makes this level of a

purchase in it because there's uh Ripple

effects when the um the global store of

value uh the governor of the global

store of value which is you know the US

the fed and the treasury basically

starts purchasing this asset it almost

becomes reflexive enough can any G7

country afford to not purchase Bitcoin

after this wouldn't it be fun if the

next arms race was not for weapons it

was for Bitcoin

wouldn't it be fun if the US is buying

Bitcoin and it scares China and Russia

so they start buying Bitcoin and we have

an arms race over Bitcoin instead of

over weapons that we're we're as

globally we're challenging each other to

have a secure store of

value I feel like they'd kind of have to

if the US did this I can't believe that

China would well certainly would not

continue selling the confiscated Bitcoin

that it has it would it would I'm I'm

sure hold that and maybe it would

purchase you you sort of have to if if

your economic adversary is starting to

um store all of this value um I I would

think you'd have to react by you know

like purchasing some

yourself so let's let's play this out

I'm curious about what you think of

this uh the US went off the gold

standard in

1971 completed its uh departure from the

gold standard in in

1974 what if uh during this

Century um we go back on a standard but

it's a Bitcoin

standard and so we have yes we still

have our gold uh but we now have in

addition to that another hard asset a

digital gold Bitcoin

that is growing in value and uh can

underpin the US dollar and preserve the

US dollar as the world Reserve currency

that needs to be one of our goals too

you know the whole world is going to be

having digital

assets uh I believe in your lifetime not

in mine maybe but Ryan you and David are

young I think in your lifetimes all

assets are going to be digital and

it's important that the US lead in this

area you know we've always been the

innovator we've always been the leader

and right now we've been kind of

hesitant sitting on our hands and people

in Congress don't know what this is and

they don't want to lead that's not

American we always lead and so when we

see countries David you're in AR

Argentina big you're you're at a big

Bitcoin conference or or digital asset

con conference it's because the world is

yearning to have somebody lead in this

area you know uh the European Union's

ahead of the United States Singapore is

ahead of the United States uh we the US

needs to lead in this area and we

haven't done it for some reason uh we

just don't have our act together on this

so um part of the reason I'm trying to

get us to have a legislative framework

working with Senator Kirsten Gill brand

in New York um is so we can lead in this

area and so the notion of a strategic

Bitcoin Reserve is another way to lead

we've always been the country you know

the Louisiana Purchase buying

Alaska um the United States has always

been willing very good Investments I

should add good Roi on those purchases

and we grasp Big Ideas and this is just

an area where where we have blinders on

we haven't grasped the big idea and it's

time for us to do that we have a

strategic oil Reserve as you pointed out

we have Fort Knox we have strategic gold

assets this is digital gold this is even

more of a hard asset than oil why would

we have reserves in those asset assets

and not add the most formidable Digital

hard asset on Earth and that's

Bitcoin I think we definitely appreciate

the uh Congress people Senators

Regulators who have the foresight to

lean into this industry when you call

this a strategic reserve and like you

said we have a strategic Reserve about

oil so we don't it wouldn't be the first

strategic asset that we have uh but when

you talk about uh leading being first

there's there's something m about being

first to bitcoin and and I wonder like

how important is being like the first

government to actually lean into Bitcoin

like like I said like you could just

like we should have a rest strategic

reserve of oil but like we're not first

to that how important is being first

here to you to the strategy part of the

Strategic Reserve like how much magic

would be lost if we were like third or

fourth in your opinion well certainly we

would lose the advantage of being the

first first world country uh to start

accumulating Bitcoin at a

price uh that is the the lowest it's

ever going to be in the long run um and

so we have a strategic advant advantage

in that we are buying

low um and furthermore um it is our way

of acknowledging that this digital

economy

including what the the what constitutes

money what constitutes a store of value

and a means of exchange are part of that

digital economy in fact the first part

of the digital economy and the first

utilization of Bitcoin uh or rather the

blockchain uh that um launches this

whole new web three um nobody right now

would say gee I wish we would have uh

waited

with adopting the internet until four or

five other countries adopted the use of

the worldwide web and the internet we

saw that it was going to be a game

changer and we let it run we didn't

interfere in its

regulatory um life uh until later now

we're crapping now we're grappling with

privacy considerations and and such on

the internet but initially the potential

of the internet was sort of recognized

and allowed to

exist how is it that bitcoin's any

different when we see something this

transformative and that basically

transitions us from the internet economy

sort of web one Web Two is sort of

social media where you and I interact

and now we're going to web 3 and really

the digital assets are the transition to

web 3 and web 3 is going to be huge in

terms of protecting private property

rights uh on a tokenized um

blockchain

so this just seems like the logical

progression we know what's happening the

United States innovators are the leaders

in this is why would we let our

government sit on its hands and watch

other countries the European Union and

Singapore and other countries take the

lead from us on this when we absolutely

know what's going to

happen they absolutely know what's going

to happen part I want to I want to

double down on that uh I sometimes when

I try to explain people the value of

Bitcoin I use uh the metaphor of it's a

game of chicken there's only 21 million

chairs out there and it's a game of

musical chairs and there's like a lot of

capital in the world to play this game

so like say say we start buying some

Bitcoin we get our digital Fort KNX up

and going do you expect that to create

like this game of chicken between

nations you expect like the next thing

to happen to have like the European

Union to China all these other countries

to like also be buying

Bitcoin I don't know that it will happen

but I think it could happen uh because I

think that

observers of uh Bitcoin its qualities

the fact that there are more nodes all

the time all over the world and every

time there are a hundred new nodes this

asset gets harder it's it hardens the

asset

because every single node has the entire

Bitcoin

blockchain on that node whether that's

nodes in uh Catman do or uh you know San

Francisco and so because that asset

can't be um you know stolen or forged or

replicated in some way that's

inconsistent with its core value and its

blockchain it's just going to become

more secure and hardened and valuable

over time so China can see that the EU

can see that Russia can see that and

it's it and but the nice thing is it's

also infinitely

divisible so and you don't have to carry

it around in your pocket and worry that

somebody's going to steal it or you're

going to be

robbed um so it has so many of the

qualities of money it almost has all of

the best qualities of money that have

ever existed and I think as more and

more people see that country R they're

going to say hey we want to get in on

that and if the United States sees that

and they're using this as a mechanism to

keep their currency the world Reserve

currency why don't we want to compete

with them I mean I like my my my take on

this too is like even if you think the

world where um you know Bitcoin has a

you know the there's a world of the

Bitcoin standard even if you think the

probability of that is is somewhat low

right just think about the expected

value it's like this proposal this bill

is incredibly cheap we already have 20%

of the one million which like that's

already happened now you you get the

other 800,000 and what's the cost of

that on the market what you know 50

billion I mean what's that in the

context of the US budget and by the way

with kind of the uh the way that you

were talking about doing this where you

sort of um you just change the book

value to the fair market value of of

gold you know somehow maybe that this

money is already there it costs nothing

it's just like you wait 10 years to play

that game

and it's going to be more than 10x uh

the cost to actually do this and then it

can't you like uh provide the outcome

that that you're hoping for Senator

which is like to actually reduce the

debt there there's some other cool

things as part of this bill that I just

picked out that I really liked uh one is

this whole Fort KNX for for Bitcoin uh

comes with proof of Reserve so you know

kind of thought through that so that

would be you know uh publicly accessible

that was included in the bill I really

like that um and then also there's this

establishment of the right to self-

custody that I felt was important so um

the bill is also affirming self- custody

rights of private Bitcoin holders so if

you are a US citizen you hold some

Bitcoin in in private Keys then um this

bill just cements that as a right the

government cannot infringe upon that

which is important because we have that

uh by proxy through you know the the

Constitution the first 10 amendments we

don't actually necessarily have it in

law codified that US citizens have the

right to private keys can you talk about

that last bit a little bit how does that

mesh with the the entire strategic

Reserve strategy here yeah Ryan it's

it's the sovereign

individual and it it is uh the person a

person can hold their own store of

value um let's look at a bank and I'm

going to tell you a story and this

actually happened to

me um

my husband and I had bank accounts our

Bank

closed he was home he moved our money

into a new

bank I was elsewhere in the state so I

couldn't sign the bank

statements he went to bed one night had

a massive heart attack in his sleep and

didn't wake up the next morning he died

my my name was not on our bank accounts

because he moved them to the new bank

Bank while I was out of town so I go in

to the new bank to get our money my

money and I can't get it because my

name's no longer on the account only his

name is on the account and he has died I

can't find his

will I need to pay our

bills this happened to me so what you

have with a bank is an IOU

what you have with a private individual

Bitcoin wallet is access to your money

it is permissionless that's what we mean

by permissionless you don't have to go

to the bank and ask them for your money

you don't have to trust someone else to

hold your money that's the ass that is

why having an individual wallet is so

valuable you don't have to trust anybody

you don't have to trust that the bank is

going to be solvent that they're not

going to lose your money you don't have

to have it insured by the

FDIC because you hold it so it's

permissionless and it's

secure uh and having lived through that

time before I found his will and it was

like an 8-week period And I had bills

piling up during that period I'm having

to call people and say I can't pay you

right now cuz I don't have access to our

money and I'm still looking for the will

and I'll pay you when I can it was a

horrible

experience not just because my husband

died suddenly and it was such a shock

but because my finances were not

available to me so I have you know

deeply personal reasons to want access

as to private wallets the sovereign

individual and I want to make sure that

people around the world who are living

in totalitarian regimes who they can't

trust I want to know that when someone

in the United States sends money to

their mother in I don't know some

corrupt

country that they can get it on their

phone and hold it uh that they don't

have to trust anyone else to get this

asset and hold it and protect it that's

the value of the individual wallet and I

I can't stress enough how strongly I

feel that that's a quality we must

protect that's part of the reason we're

doing it legislatively well said you're

protecting the right of every citizen to

go bankless I mean uh that that's

exactly what this bill would be doing

too um Okay so we've talked about the

bill how did how did it go so uh I think

crypto listeners here are obviously

we're very excited about um like all of

the things that that you just talked

about Senator how about among your your

colleagues uh sense that there might be

more resistance there or or maybe there

was just tell us about the positive and

and negative reception of this and even

like the prospects of something like

this happening well it won't happen this

year um I filed it this year because I

want the feedback I want the comments I

want to start the

dialogue um it um it's going to be an

education

process explaining what you and I been

talking about on this

podcast and doing it over and over again

with my colleagues in the

Congress it's going to be important it

it was

important that when uh former president

Trump spoke to bitcoin

2024 that he spoke in favor of a

strategic Bitcoin stockpile it indicated

to me that he knows the difference

between Bitcoin and

other uh cryptocurrencies digital asset

and they have their own value and they

have their own place in this world but

bitcoin's Place uh is more like digital

gold so first it told me he knows that

Bitcoin is digital gold and that he re

recognizes the importance of having a

strategic reserve a Buy and Hold Slow

Money approach to

bitcoin the same was true of

RFK he obviously gets it as well and so

the fact that he has not only at the

Bitcoin 2024 conference articulated

advocacy for this but has done so

repeatedly over time so you

I can see why the Biden administration

at least in in this hyper Poli poitical

time we're in where we're less than a

100 days from an election they would

look at their opponents Trump and and

Kennedy RFK supporting this so I'm not

surprised they're not embracing it uh

it's um they don't I don't think they

want to get carried away with the me too

idea I also

worry that they been heavily influenced

by the Elizabeth Warren wing of their

party um to me Elizabeth Warren is a

very smart woman but she's also a woman

who believes in government that

government needs to control things and

and money is the means to control

people and so if you lose control of the

money you lose control of people and uh

I I think that's why you know real

strong central government Advocates fear

Bitcoin because you really do lose

control of people when you don't control

the money um and there are a lot of

people like that in the federal

government so this is going to be a

heavy lift but that's why I wanted to

start the discussion now uh that's I

want people to start thinking about what

is

money and how does Bitcoin

protect us Innovation first and

foremost and how does it protect our

status uh as the world Reserve currency

for the US dollar I think this is so

pivotal to the future of America as the

leading nation in the world that I want

to get out in front of it and um I'm

going to continue to uh share that story

until as they say until hell freeze is

over and when hell freeze is over we're

going to skate on the

eyes I I I got to say it's been

incredibly exciting to see uh crypto as

an election issue this year the you know

presidential election issue and it

certainly has been uh on from the Trump

perspective also RFK whom you've

mentioned uh you gave a take there about

kind of why the Democrats have been a

bit more silent and I I should say KLA

Harris in particular so there there were

hopes of course I I think all crypto

Advocates have hopes that crypto can be

a bipartisan issue the way the internet

was in the 1990s both Democrats and

Republicans this is obvious good for

America of course we're pro internet

like why would you not be are you not

pro Innovation are you not pro jobs

you're not pro economy it's all the same

thing uh yet the uh KLA Harris well the

Biden Administration has certainly not

been uh Pro crypto them last two years

in particular but you like all four have

been uh fairly crypto hostile you know

we don't have to rehash everything that

Gary gendler has done bankas audience is

is well aware of these things now the

Democratic National Convention is

happening this week as we're recording

this episode and there was some glimmer

of hope okay the ethereum ETF went

forward the Bitcoin ETF went forward so

there was maybe some idea of political

pressure on the administration to kind

of relent on their anti- crypto posture

and there was hope that in the policy

platform of the Democrats you would say

you would see some mention of crypto and

uh a 94 page policy came out earlier

this week There's mention of AI

uh and discussion of that nothing on

crypto so so far comma Harris has been

completely silent on crypto what's your

explanation for that do you think it

goes back to sort of the Elizabeth

Warren contingent and and kind of uh the

power dynamics there is there something

more to it because it feels like it's

going to be increasingly hard for

politicians who are anti- crypto to win

elections and I assume KLA Harris is

trying to win an election here well I

hope you're right that uh politicians

who are anti- digital assets uh find it

rough to get elected because this has

become a much more mature asset class

and Industry and advocacy around it than

it was in previous elections and so you

saw the Republican

platform um articulate its advocacy for

digital assets by the way that platform

was heavily influenced almost entirely

written by Donald Trump and so that is

um an an a statement of support that

comes directly from our candidate to our

party

platform the fact that that hasn't

happened in the Democrat Party is is of

concern if we could clone Kirsten Gill

brand we'd be in really good shape uh

but you know she's kind of a voice in

the wilderness now there's a few others

you know Rana and others uh the good

news is this the house passed fit

21 while Kiren Chiller brand and I have

been laboring in the trenches of

bipartisanship on this subject in the

Senate the house on a bipartisan basis

passed

fit21 we got in the Senate um staff

accounting bulle

121 uh the repeal of it passed on a

bipartisan basis in the Senate and the

house did it too so the good news is

that disclosed to both parties that this

is bipartisan and that there's

enough bipartisan appetite and

understanding of this asset class that

we can move legislation on a bipartisan

basis then you're seeing

cryptocurrency digital assets whether

it's Bitcoin or stable coins or um you

know alternative coins or utility tokens

there an issue in the Ohio Senate race

between shered brown who has been a

opponent um and Bernie Marino the

Republican who is an advocate for

digital assets it is a key

difference between the two of them in

the Ohio Senate race I think that race

is almost going to be a bellweather race

uh for how digital assets uh are viewed

in elections going

forward we in the crypto industry have

gotten a lot more allies out of the

Conservative Republican Camp than we

have certainly from the left by quite a

wide margin uh I think I can count all

the pro crypto liberal Pro crypto

Democrats on like a single hand and

they're and they're great and they're

great but like nonetheless like all of

the proponents of the crypto industry

have come from uh the right yet also at

the same time uh even uh earlier on this

conversation you're talking about like

we couldn't even imagine if the United

States was late to the internet why

would we be late to bitcoin and the

internet is not a left or right like

technology it's it's just like the

internet what do you think about the

future of our our nation's partisanship

as it relates to this industry you want

to see the left kind of like wake up and

adopt and accept crypto at in their

platform or do you kind of think that

like Bitcoin and crypto has a more comfy

home uh amongst the Republicans and the

conservatives well I I I do think that

it has a more comfy home among

conservatives now but um as as you look

at some of the more libertarian

leaning uh

liberals um joh widen for example uh he

is the current chairman of the Senate

finance committee he's sort of a

Libertarian leaning liberal and he's

also very Pro Bitcoin and digital assets

um and so um if we I think you're going

to see if there becomes a

more um digital asset friendly Democrat

party it's going to come from the

Liberty libertarian wing of the Democrat

Party because the progressive Wing that

is very central government

focused I don't think is ever going to

be able to get comfortable with this

asset because of the sovereign

individual aspect of it it

divorces

money from the federal government as the

one and only issue were purveyor uh of

of money and people like Elizabeth

Warren just cannot wrap their heads

around that and we see her as one of the

leaders of the progressive wing of the

Democrat Party I think that's going to

be the hard opponent of digital assets

going forward that particular wing of

the Democrat Party Senator thank you so

much for um spending time with us today

this has been absolutely fantastic

um all the best in in both this bill and

then future legislation very hopeful we

we can get it all done I just last

question for you as we close this out so

uh if if Trump wins what does this mean

for crypto legislation versus a kamla

Harris win what are the similarities and

differences in both of those scenarios

total Game Changer if Trump wins I say

if Trump wins he in his State of the

Union message or his first message to

Congress advocates for a bit bit coin

strategic Reserve I think he Advocates

towards a regulatory framework that is

very pro-innovation I think he puts

Regulators in place at the SEC cftc OCC

that are friendly to an understanding of

digital assets total game Cher I think

that if camela Harris wins the exact

opposite is true and we're going to be

fighting an uphill battle for four

years amazing Senator thank you so much

for joining us on Bank list today my

pleasure great to be with you as usual

Bank list Nation we feel compelled to

let you know that crypto is risky you

could lose what you put in but we are

headed west this is the frontier it's

not for everyone but we're glad you're

with us on the bankless journey thanks a

lot

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