137. When Words Aren’t Enough: How to Excel at Nonverbal Communication | Think Fast, Talk Smart:...

Summary

In this episode of 'Think Fast, Talk Smart' podcast, Matt Abrahams interviews Dana Carney, an expert in nonverbal communication from Berkeley's Haas School of Business. They delve into the nuances of nonverbal cues, discussing how they convey power, status, and bias. Carney emphasizes the importance of eye contact and body language in expressing confidence and authority. The conversation highlights the role of culture and context in interpreting nonverbals and offers practical advice on becoming more aware and fluent in nonverbal communication, including the value of recording oneself to gain self-awareness and improve.

Takeaways

• 🎙️ The podcast 'Think Fast, Talk Smart' is nominated for a Webby Award and requests listeners to vote for them at fastersmarter.io/webby.
• 📚 Matt Abrahams, who teaches Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business, hosts the podcast and emphasizes the importance of nonverbal communication.
• 🧑‍🏫 Dana Carney, the George Quist chair in business ethics at Berkeley's Haas School of Business, is the guest speaker and discusses her research on nonverbal behaviors that communicate biases, preferences, power, and status.
• 🤝 Nonverbal communication is divided into perception and expression, with visual, verbal, and vocal components, and Dana adds the importance of facial and body language as separate channels.
• 👀 Eye contact is highlighted as a powerful nonverbal tool to convey power, intelligence, and warmth, and is controllable and beneficial for effective communication.
• 📏 'Expansion' is another key nonverbal behavior discussed, which includes taking up physical space, speaking slowly, and expanding one's presence in various ways.
• 🌐 Cultural and contextual differences in nonverbal communication are acknowledged, with an emphasis on understanding and adapting to these nuances for effective interaction.
• 🔑 The importance of having clear communication goals is stressed, as it influences the choice of nonverbal cues to convey the intended message.
• 💡 Nonverbal cues can sometimes be more revealing than verbal communication, especially in situations where people may not be fully aware of their biases or are incentivized to hide their true feelings.
• 🔄 The process of improving nonverbal communication involves repetition, reflection, and feedback, including self-recording and self-analysis to become more aware of one's nonverbal presence.
• 🤔 Coherence across different communication channels (face, body, voice, words) is a key indicator of credibility and confidence, and inconsistency may signal internal conflict or deception.

Q & A

What is the significance of the Webby Award nomination mentioned in the script?

The Webby Award is a prestigious recognition in the internet industry. Being nominated for this award signifies that the podcast episode featuring Kim Scott of Radical Candor has been acknowledged for its excellence and is considered among the top content in its category.

What are the three Vs of nonverbal communication as mentioned by Matt Abrahams?

The three Vs of nonverbal communication are Visual, Verbal, and Vocal. Visual refers to what we see, Verbal includes the words, fillers, and spaces in speech, and Vocal pertains to the manner in which words are spoken.

How does Dana Carney define nonverbal communication in terms of perception and expression?

Dana Carney defines nonverbal communication by emphasizing two main aspects: perception, which involves the nonverbal behaviors we need to pay attention to in order to understand others or situations, and expression, which concerns the behaviors we use to convey certain attributes or messages.

What does Dana Carney suggest as two nonverbal behaviors that people can control to convey power?

Dana Carney suggests eye contact and expansion as two nonverbal behaviors that people can control to convey power. Eye contact helps in taking up space with one's gaze, while expansion can be achieved through physical space, the duration of speech, or the volume of one's voice.

How does Dana Carney describe the role of culture and context in nonverbal communication?

Dana Carney explains that culture and context play significant roles in nonverbal communication. While some nonverbal cues like eye contact are fairly consistent across cultures, the interpretation of these cues can vary. For example, the appropriateness of eye contact can differ based on whether one is speaking or being spoken to.

What are the five nonverbal rules of power as discussed by Dana Carney?

The five nonverbal rules of power, as outlined by Dana Carney, are areas of nonverbal behavior that, when remembered and applied, can help individuals tap into a sense of power. The specific rules are not detailed in the transcript, but two examples provided are eye contact and expansion.

How does Dana Carney view the importance of verbal content versus nonverbal behavior in communication?

Dana Carney believes that both verbal content and nonverbal behavior are extremely important in communication. She suggests that nonverbal cues can sometimes be more meaningful than verbal ones, particularly in situations where people may not be aware of their biases or are incentivized not to reveal their true thoughts or feelings.

What is the role of context in nonverbal communication according to the script?

Context plays a crucial role in nonverbal communication as it can change the interpretation of both verbal and nonverbal cues. The same words can have different meanings in different environments, and understanding the context is key to navigating nonverbal communication effectively.

How does Dana Carney suggest assessing the effectiveness of one's nonverbal communication?

Dana Carney suggests assessing nonverbal communication by recording oneself, setting clear goals for the interaction beforehand, and then reviewing the recording to see if the intended messages were sent effectively. Additionally, seeking feedback from others can provide insight into how one's nonverbals are perceived.

What are some ways to practice and improve nonverbal communication skills as suggested by Dana Carney?

Dana Carney recommends practicing nonverbal behaviors that align with one's goals for an interaction, reflecting on whether those behaviors were effective in achieving the intended outcome, and seeking feedback from others to understand how one's nonverbal cues are perceived.

What does Dana Carney consider as the first three ingredients for successful communication?

Dana Carney identifies three key ingredients for successful communication: having a clear goal for the interaction, knowing the nonverbal behaviors that best convey one's intended message, and practicing these behaviors until they become natural and unconscious.

Outlines

00:00

🎙️ Webby Award Nomination and Introduction to Nonverbal Communication

Matt Abrahams introduces the podcast episode, requesting listeners to vote for their Webby Award nomination. He then delves into the importance of nonverbal communication, highlighting its impact on perception and interaction. Matt discusses the three Vs of communication: visual, verbal, and vocal, and is joined by Dana Carney, an expert in nonverbal behavior, to explore how nonverbal cues convey biases, preferences, power, and status.

05:00

👁️ The Power of Eye Contact and Nonverbal Expression

Dana Carney explains the concept of nonverbal communication through the lens of perception and expression, emphasizing the control we have over certain nonverbal cues. She discusses the significance of eye contact and physical expansion as means to convey power and presence. The conversation also touches on cultural nuances and the importance of context in interpreting nonverbal signals.

10:02

🌐 Cultural Context in Nonverbal Communication

The discussion continues with the impact of culture and context on nonverbal communication. Dana explains that while some nonverbal cues like eye contact are universally understood, others can vary significantly across cultures. The conversation underscores the need for awareness and sensitivity to cultural differences when interpreting and using nonverbal cues.

15:03

🗣️ The Interplay of Verbal and Nonverbal Communication

Matt and Dana explore the relative importance of verbal content versus nonverbal behavior, acknowledging that both are crucial for effective communication. They discuss how nonverbal cues can sometimes reveal underlying biases or feelings that are not consciously expressed verbally, particularly in situations involving deception or strategic interactions.

20:04

🔍 Becoming Fluent in Nonverbal Communication

The episode focuses on strategies for improving nonverbal communication skills. Dana suggests self-recording and goal-setting as methods to increase self-awareness and refine nonverbal expression. The conversation highlights the importance of practice, reflection, and feedback in mastering the nonverbal aspects of communication.

🏆 Key Ingredients for Successful Communication

In the final part of the conversation, Dana identifies clarity of goal, knowledge of effective nonverbal behaviors, and practice as the key ingredients for successful communication. She emphasizes the importance of authenticity and aligning nonverbal cues with intended messages to achieve communication objectives.

Keywords

💡Webby Award

The Webby Award is a prestigious accolade that recognizes excellence on the Internet, including websites, interactive media, and online film and video. In the script, the host mentions that their podcast episode featuring Kim Scott of Radical Candor has been nominated for this award, indicating a significant achievement in the realm of digital media.

💡Strategic Communication

Strategic Communication refers to the deliberate and purposeful process of communicating to achieve specific goals. It involves planning and executing messages to influence and persuade a target audience. Matt Abrahams, who teaches Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business, is the host of the podcast, and this concept is central to the discussion on how nonverbal cues can enhance or detract from the intended message.

💡Nonverbal Communication

Nonverbal Communication encompasses the various ways people communicate without using words. This includes facial expressions, body language, gestures, eye contact, and tone of voice. The script discusses this extensively as Dana Carney, an expert in the field, shares insights on how nonverbal cues can convey biases, preferences, power, and status.

💡Perception

Perception in the context of the video refers to the process of interpreting and making sense of nonverbal cues from others. It is one of the two main components of nonverbal communication, along with expression. The script highlights the importance of being aware of the nonverbal behaviors we need to pay attention to in order to understand others accurately.

💡Expression

Expression in nonverbal communication is about using behaviors as tools to convey attributes or emotions. It is the act of communicating through nonverbal means, such as posture, gestures, and facial expressions. In the script, Dana Carney talks about the importance of aligning our nonverbal expressions with our verbal messages to effectively communicate our intentions.

💡Power and Status

Power and status are concepts that are deeply intertwined with nonverbal communication. They refer to the perceived authority or rank that an individual holds. The script discusses 'the five nonverbal rules of power,' indicating that certain nonverbal cues can influence how others perceive our power and status.

💡Eye Contact

Eye contact is a powerful nonverbal cue that can convey confidence, attention, and sincerity. In the script, Dana Carney emphasizes the importance of eye contact in taking up 'space with your eyes,' suggesting that maintaining eye contact can project power, intelligence, and warmth.

💡Expansion

Expansion, as discussed in the script, refers to the act of taking up space, both physically and verbally. This can be done by speaking more, speaking slowly, or physically expanding one's body posture. It is presented as a way to assert presence and authority in a conversation.

💡Cultural Context

Cultural context is vital when interpreting and using nonverbal communication. It acknowledges that the meaning and appropriateness of nonverbal cues can vary across different cultures. The script touches on this by mentioning that while eye contact is generally accepted when speaking, the expectation of eye contact when being spoken to can differ cross-culturally.

💡Coherence Across Channels

Coherence across channels refers to the consistency between different modes of communication, such as facial expressions, body language, vocal tone, and verbal content. In the script, Dana Carney identifies this as a key factor in assessing credibility and confidence, stating that alignment across these channels can signal authenticity and sincerity.

Highlights

Matt Abrahams and Dana Carney discuss the importance of nonverbal communication in conveying power and status.

Dana Carney introduces the concept of nonverbal communication as a Venn diagram with perception and expression sides.

The three Vs of nonverbal communication are expanded to include visual cues like facial expressions and body language.

Eye contact is highlighted as a powerful tool for demonstrating power, intelligence, and warmth.

Expansion, both physically and vocally, is identified as a method to take up space and convey confidence.

Cultural differences in nonverbal cues, such as eye contact, are discussed in terms of context and appropriateness.

Immediate cues like proximity and body orientation are explained as indicators of intimacy and engagement.

The importance of matching nonverbal cues with verbal content to convey sincerity and authenticity is emphasized.

Dana Carney's book on nonverbal behavior is anticipated to provide further insights at the end of the year.

The role of context in interpreting nonverbal communication is explored, illustrating the complexity of the subject.

Strategies for becoming more aware of one's nonverbal communication through self-recording and reflection are suggested.

The significance of feedback in improving nonverbal communication skills is underscored.

Dana recommends practicing nonverbal cues that align with one's natural tendencies for authenticity.

Coherence across different communication channels is identified as a key indicator of credibility.

Winston Churchill is cited as an example of an effective communicator who leveraged his speech impediment.

The three ingredients for successful communication are identified as having a clear goal, knowing effective nonverbal behaviors, and practicing them.

Transcripts

Hi, Matt, here.

I have a favor to ask, we were just

nominated for a prestigious

Webby Award for our episode with

Kim Scott of Radical Candor.

Can you please vote for

us @fastersmarter.io/webby?

It should only take a minute or

two and would be really helpful.

Thanks for voting, for

us at fastersmarter.io/webby.

And thanks for your continued

support of Think Fast,

Talk Smart, the podcast.

I'm old enough to remember watching

television in black and white.

In the day we got our first color

TV, my mind was blown.

The same thing is true.

When you go from just focusing on

verbal messages to thinking about

nonverbal communication.

My name is Matt Abrahams and

I teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of

Business.

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart,

the Podcast.

Today I am really Excited to

talk with Dana Carney.

Dana is the George Quist chair in

business ethics at

Berkeley's Haas School of Business.

This year, she's on sabbatical from

Berkeley and

is spending time with us here in

the management group at the GSB.

Her research focuses on

the nonverbal ways in which

we communicate our biases,

our preferences, our power and

our status.

Her forthcoming book

on nonverbal behavior is

expected at the end of the year.

Welcome, Dana.

I am really looking forward to our

conversation.

Thanks for being here.

>> Matt, thank you so much for

having me.

I was so excited when

you reached out.

>> Should we get started?

>> Absolutely.

>> Dana, I'm so excited for this

conversation because I have long

been fascinated by your research

and nonverbal communication.

When I teach

nonverbal communication,

I reference the three V's,

visual, verbal, and vocal.

Visual is what we see.

Verbal is the words and fillers and

spaces that we have.

And then vocal is how we

say those words.

I'm curious, do you see nonverbal

communication the same way and

how do you explain it when you

talk about it?

>> Almost the same way?

First, there's two big circles if

like a Venn diagram overlapping

circles, right?

One is the perception side.

What are the nonverbal behaviors

that we need to pay attention to

when we're trying to make sense

of or understand other people or

situations.

Then there's the expression side,

which is what are the behaviors

that we can use as tools to express

or land a particular attribute.

So I would layer those on top of

your three Vs.

And then I would add,

when you said visual,

I would split that into face and

body as separate channels.

>> So nonverbals gives us a whole

set of tools through which we can

communicate information, and some

of it are things we can control,

as you mentioned, and

other things are things that

perhaps are less in our control.

But we convey information through

the words we say, but

also how we say it and

the demeanor with which we say it.

I find this fascinating because

there's this whole other channel

that we often don't think about.

Can you discuss how our perceptions

of power in status are influenced

by nonverbal communication?

>> So it's an entire chapter my

books in the chapter.

It's called the five nonverbal

rules of power.

And what it is, is a Venn diagram

where the perception nonverbals

the ones we need to know to read

power accurately.

And the ones that

people think are associated with

power they intersect.

And there's five areas of nonverbal

behavior that if we remember those,

we can really tap into power.

I'll give you two that I think are

particularly useful because people

have a lot of control over them.

One of them is eye contact.

When you look at someone when

you're speaking and when they're

speaking, you're really taking up

space with your eyes.

You're not only saying, I see you,

I hear you, but

also I'm speaking to you, and

distributing that around the room.

You're almost spreading yourself

around the room when you're looking

around there.

So eye contact is one that we have

control over and it's easy to force

yourself to distribute and to use.

And it has additional benefits.

Not only does it convey power, but

it conveys intelligence and warmth.

So you just can't go wrong with eye

contact.

So that would be one that

I would say is one

that everyone can practice and

use and another one is expansion.

And I don't just

mean with your body.

I don't just mean taking up

physical space with the bubble

that's around your body, I mean

expansion in all kinds of ways.

So taking a longer time to say what

you're saying.

If you take more time,

you're taking up space.

So you see there's a number of

ways of taking up space.

You can do it with how much

you speak, how slowly you speak,

physically like spreading your body

out in a way that feels

comfortable.

So those were the two I

would say are easy to control and

there's a version of each that most

people could probably find.

>> So taking space and connecting

through space through eye contact,

really important.

That example of all the things we

could do to take space shows

the different types of paint that

we can use to paint in this

nonverbal way, right?

>> Yeah. >> It's how you say it,

how long you say it,

how you physically show up,

and not just you personally, but

the stuff you put in front of you,

all of that.

And there's this whole conversation

that's happening at that level that

we perceive,

that we don't necessarily

consciously think about.

I want to dive

just a little deeper.

Clearly culture and

context plays a role in this.

Some cultures I'm aware of eye

contact is actually seen as rude

because you're supposed to defer.

What's your take on the

intersection of culture and context

when it comes to non verbals.

>> Eye contact, there's not a lot

of variability cross culture when

it comes to the speaker making

eye contact with others.

It's where the rudeness or

the cross-cultural variability

in whether or not you're being

disrespectful comes, from whether

you're looking at the speaker when

you're being spoken to.

So it's when you're on

the receiving end of being yelled

at or uppermanded or whatever,

looking back is typically where you

see the variability.

Not if I'm the speaker and

I look at, but yes,

context matters, culture matters.

So what I like to say is that

there are certain sort of

pillars that are safe spaces.

For example, if you're trying to

convey warmth, looking at someone,

being a little bit closer to them,

how close varies by culture, but

proximity in general is associated

with intimacy,

body orientation toward.

So these are all cues called

immediacy cues directing your

communication toward them.

Like talking to them and smiling or

nodding like you're doing now,

you're encouraging me smiling and

nodding.

Those are called

back channel responses.

They unconsciously or

implicitly are saying, I hear you,

I see you,

I recognize what you're saying,

we're on the same page.

There's a cluster of things that

convey liking.

And so, there might be some

variability around how close or

how much eye contact.

But generally speaking,

those are safe.

And so, when we go to another

culture, we just need to figure out

what are the boundaries around.

So, if I go to one culture,

it's two kisses, kiss, kiss.

Other cultures, it's three kisses,

kiss, kiss, kiss.

Other cultures, it's

the left cheek first.

For another radio.

So it's kind of like those things.

It's a nonverbal version of how

many cheeks do I kiss and

how many times.

>> Right, I appreciate that answer.

It's very nuanced and

there's complexity to it.

But that's the reality of

nonverbal communication.

This is not simple.

I'm taking several things away from

what you said.

One that there's some foundational.

Principles are, as you said,

safe spaces around which

there's nuance that is culturally

learnable, and we just have to

be sensitive to that.

And so the big message I'm taking

away is, we just have to build

awareness and be sensitive.

We can ask, we can observe,

we can research to learn what's

appropriate and not appropriate,

and know that by invoking

the appropriate non-verbals, we can

achieve goals like demonstrating

warmth and liking that can really

help us in ways sometimes that our

words don't allow us to do.

>> Exactly.

>> I have another question for

you about the relative value of

non-verbals in actual messages.

Where do you fall on the relative

importance of verbal content versus

non-verbal behavior.

In other words,

what we say versus how we say it?

>> No, I don't think any reasonable

scientist would say that non-verbal

is more important than verbal.

I think most of us would say both

are extremely important.

If we're in a domain where I have

a reason to lie, or maybe I don't

know, like racial bias and

discrimination being one, right?

People aren't aware of their

biases, or they are aware of them

but maybe not the extent to which

they hold them.

Then we get into some territory

where non-verbal start to be maybe

more meaningful than verbals

because I don't realize that I have

bias.

I think that when you get into

territory where either people don't

have introspective access

to how they think or feel or

they have their incentives not

to reveal it, right?

Looking at an economic game, or

a strategic interaction, or

a negotiation, that's where

non-verbal becomes really fun and

interesting and useful, because

words aren't enough in that case.

>> Absolutely, yeah, so

they're both important, and

sometimes differentially important,

depending on the context.

Which again brings

us back to this notion of context.

So I have an example I always use

when I teach.

If you were in a doctor's office

and the doctor says,

how are you doing?

That means one thing.

If you were at a bar at a party and

somebody says how are you doing,

that means something very

different.

The words are the same.

The environment and

context is different.

And we somehow know how to navigate

through that.

But also we can run into a lot of

trouble when we misunderstand.

>> Yes, and

this is when knowing where our goal

is is so credibly important.

If I'm at that bar and my goal is

I'm attracted to this person and so

I want to convey some attraction.

So I might dip into some cues

associated with attraction or

being attractive.

So when people use a breathy or

voice, they can

come off as a little more

attractive versus I'm a doctor and

my goal is empathy, I want you to

know that I'm listening.

So the first thing you need to

think about in the context is,

what's my goal here?

If I'm a doctor,

I want to make sure that my patient

feels heard and understood.

If I'm in a bar and I just truly

want to know how someone's doing,

I don't want to use a vocal tone

that might express attraction,

I might want to be more casual or

a be like, hey, how you doing and

use colloquial kind of tone of

voice with a lot of vocal

variability that might be

associated with having a good time.

So that's the first thing to do,

is what is my goal in this social

interaction.

And look, all of this stuff is

happening in a fraction of

a second, right?

I mean, we don't sit down and

script out what we're going to do

before I'm going to go to the bar

and when I see this person

I'm going to say.

I like to think about non-verbal

communication as a language because

once we know what's the list of

cues associated with liking,

which ones of those are associated

with platonic liking versus

intimate liking.

And when I do this one, gosh,

I don't mean to be sending

the wrong signal, so

now you know not to do them.

And which behaviors are associated

with being trusted,

which behaviors are associated with

conveying power?

That I think really will help us

think about how can I best

land whatever it is that I am

trying to learn?

>> We've talked often about this

notion of having a goal when

you communicate.

By default, I think many people

think of the words that I say.

And what I'm hearing,

you say is we have to expand that

goal to be thinking about how do

we achieve that goal, not just for

the words we say but how we say it.

And that's really,

really important.

This notion of there's a language

and we have to understand and

become fluent in that language, and

some are more fluent than others,

perhaps we have time to talk about

the people receiving that language.

If I'm at a bar and hope that

you're signaling attraction to me,

I'm going to be looking for

things in a way that I might not.

If I weren't, the rose colored

glasses, if you will, which I think

is a separate conversation about

our perception of nonverbals, not

just our signaling of nonverbals.

>> Sometimes the non-verbal

cues overlap, but

if the audience takes one thing

away from this conversation about

non-verbal communication is that

they're perception and expression,

and that they're different, and

also they overlap.

And the easiest places to memorize

what I've accused are the places of

overlap which is when we talked

about the five non-verbal rules of

power and I gave you two of them.

They're at the intersection of both

perception and expression which is

those are the nice ones to memorize

and practice because they do both.

>> Excellent.

I want to keep this notion of

language and fluency.

What are some things that we can

do to become more aware of our

non-verbal communication and

how they come across?

When I'm learning a language,

I practice with people who say, no,

your accent's off or

you're saying that wrong.

What are some things that we can do

to actually become more fluent.

How can we learn about it?

I ask my students to digitally

record themselves as they practice

so they see their nonverbal, and

then they watch it and then they

listen to it separately so they're

hearing the different channels.

What advice do you have about ways

to help us become more conscious of

what we're doing?

Because a lot of this is

unconscious.

>> Yes, that is exactly right

hearing or seeing ourselves.

So watching yourself

is a really big way to know how

at least do you perceive yourself?

I would add some layers on top

of that.

First of all,

in an exercise like that,

write down beforehand one or

two goals that you have for

that interaction.

Do I want to try to come off

as really smart here?

Do I want to be warm?

Am I trying to make new friends?

Am I trying to do well in this

negotiation?

Am I trying to do well in this

negotiation and retain friends?

[LAUGH] What's my goal?

And then I watched that video or

listen to the audio, and

I try to access whether I

appropriately landed that way.

At least did I think If that I

correctly sent the messages

I intended to send,

that's one piece of the puzzle.

But that's your perception.

Now it's a matter of what did

other people perceive?

A big part of it is,

I intended to be kind and when I

look at myself I seem to be kind.

But we lack self-awareness about

how we come across sometimes and

other people will see us and

say no, let's say our faces tend to

be a little cranky and

we know that we smiled three more

times in that interaction.

So for us, we're like,

I was so nice in that interaction,

I smiled three times,

I never smiled.

So for us, we knew it was a big

deviation from our baseline, and so

we think we landed in a really

warm, positive way.

But a stranger or another person

with whom we interacted,

if they were to watch and make

ratings on those same dimensions

might give us a much lower score.

Which helps us assess, okay, so

of how I intended to land and

whether or not I was successful.

And there was how did

other people perceive that?

And so that's the missing piece in

that puzzle is how do other

people perceive you?

And a layer a bit more on top

of that,

which is how do you, Strangers

perceive you versus friends or

people who know you a little bit.

>> This is really useful in that we

can all look to better understand

our nonverbal presence in terms of

how it's landing.

We have our intent and we can see

it, and we have knowledge relative

to our baseline, but we also

have to seek outside of ourselves.

>> Yeah. >> And when we do that,

we also have to think about how

much information does another

person have about us?

>> Yes.

>> That's really insightful.

And in fact, it's going to change

the way I have my students look at

their own behavior.

>> Exactly.

>> I like to say the only way to

get better communication, verbal or

nonverbal is three things,

repetition, reflection, and

feedback.

>> Totally. >> Practice,

you have to reflect, and

then you have to give feedback.

Dana, before we end,

I'd like to ask you some questions.

The first question

will be unique to you.

And then the other two

are questions I ask everybody.

Are you up for that?

>> Yep, sounds great.

>> Is there a particular nonverbal

behavior that you look to, to

assess credibility and confidence

when you're talking to others?

What is it that you look for

as an expert in this?

Is there one thing you look for?

>> Yes, we have not talked about

coherence across channels.

We talked about different channels

of communication.

The voice, the body, the face, but

we haven't talked about consistency

across those channels.

I'm looking for

consistency across channels.

If my face and my body and

my voice and my words, if all of

those things are, quote unquote,

saying the same thing,

that makes me feel like that person

is kind of full in that way, right?

I feel comfortable with them, not

only that they know what they're

talking about and I know whatever

they're saying is probably true.

That is the thing that I pay

attention to the most.

And if people are inconsistent

across channel, doesn't necessarily

mean somethings are right.

But it's something I pay attention

to because it provides information

about, are they conflicted about

what it is they're talking about.

>> I appreciate you sharing with us

this notion of coherence,

because we've really dissected

nonverbal communication into these

very specific parts.

And we have to remember that

there's a totality in a whole that

gets communicated.

And that we can assess that as

well.

It's not just did you make eye

contact?

Is the eye contact consistent with

the body posture,

with the vocal tone?

>> And the words.

>> And the words to help?

Thank you.

Question number two,

who is a communicator that you

admire and why?

>> Winston Churchill.

>> Tell me more.

>> The two reasons I think that

he's just one

of the best communicators,

the one that I probably look up to

the most is that he was so

effective in being able to grab

the hearts and minds of an entire

country and to galvanize people.

And the second reason is that

Winston Churchill turned a speech

impediment into his greatest source

of power.

He had a stutter,

and he turned that into pause.

Because of his stutter, he learned

to pause a lot and to use those

pauses extremely effectively.

>> Truly an amazing communicator

and he worked hard.

Final question, what are the first

three ingredients that go into

a successful communication recipe?

>> So first of all,

we talked about goals, right?

You have to know what your goal is.

If you don't have clarity, at least

a little bit of clarity about what

your goal is, then you're not

going to be very effective.

So my goal today was just to be

clear.

I didn't quite know

where we were going to go.

I just knew that it was important

for me to, whatever it was,

that I was going to get it

across in a way that

was at least a little bit succinct.

Then knowing the nonverbal

behaviors that land best for us.

And that goes back to what we were

talking about, the baseline,

knowing how we typically are so

that we can figure out, okay,

I need to dial up the warmth.

I don't come across warmly at all.

Gosh, I kind of see mean and

I'm not mean at all,

something you're trying to be

something that you're not.

It's that you are something but

it doesn't come across, and

you're like, gosh, I need to,

how do I fix that, right?

And that's where your idea of

practice.

So then it's knowing which

cues I can dabble in.

There's a long list of immediacy

cues that you can look at to try to

practice and

try on to figure out which one

suits you the best literally and

then what you said practice.

And it's not about faking it or

not being authentic.

It really is about,

I am a nice person.

Or let's say you're

not a nice person.

Let's say you truly are not

a nice person.

Let's say you're a cranky person,

but there are some times

that you're nice, and let's say,

your goal is to be nice right now.

So my advice is try to think about

the times that you want to be nice

or that you are nice or

that you truly feel nice and say,

okay, what are the things that

are most comfortable for

me to do when I am being nice?

And then tap into those behaviors,

because those are the ones that

are comfortable for you.

And then practice them and

they do, in fact,

land the way you intended them to.

So those are the ingredients.

It's having a goal, knowing

the best nonverbal behaviors that

land what you're intending to land,

and then practicing, right?

Just making sure that you're doing

them in an unconscious way, that

you don't have to spend a whole lot

of time thinking about it,

that they're just automatically

coming out of you.

>> So be clear on your goal,

be clear on your baseline and

practice.

So Dana, thank you so much for

your time and for your wisdom.

People can't see this, but

I'm bowing my head and

putting my hands together to

demonstrate gratefulness.

>> And I have my hand on my heart

and I'm nodding my head to you

saying thank you so much.

[MUSIC]

>> Thank you for joining us for

another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart,

The Podcast from Stanford GSB.

To learn more about nonverbal

communication, please listen to

episode 12 with Dev Grundfeld, or

Episode 16 with Bert Albert.

This episode was produced by

Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me,

Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

Please find us on YouTube or

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Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

Also, follow us on LinkedIn and

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check out fastersmarter.io for

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and our newsletter.

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