Valeria Kovtun - UnpackingTechniques Russia used to Implant its Lies and Narratives into your Head
Summary
TLDREl transcripto revela la amenaza de la desinformación como herramienta de guerra de información, utilizada para socavar la democracia y la solidaridad con Ucrania. Se discute la intensificación de las campañas de desinformación de Rusia en el contexto de elecciones y la importancia de la resiliencia cognitiva y la educación para contrarrestar estas tácticas. Además, se destaca la necesidad de mantener viva la conciencia sobre la situación en Ucrania a través de contenidos impactantes y repetitivos, y se plantea la preocupación por el futuro de Rusia y su posible re-educación puesta en manos de Ucrania.
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Q & A
¿Qué amenaza representa la desinformación para la soberanía ucraniana y las democracias occidentales?
-La desinformación Continua siendo una amenaza para la soberanía ucraniana y las democracias occidentales, ya que busca desalentar el apoyo a Ucrania, impedir el suministro de armas y socavar los procesos electorales y la propia idea de la democracia en las sociedades occidentales.
¿Cómo afecta la guerra de información a la seguridad y la estabilidad social?
-La guerra de información amenaza la seguridad, la seguridad de la información y la estabilidad social, especialmente en los estados que Rusia busca desestabilizar y considera sus enemigos naturales.
¿Cómo ha cambiado la estrategia de desinformación de Rusia en los últimos tiempos?
-Rusia ha intensificado sus campañas de desinformación no solo en Ucrania sino en todo el mundo, utilizando tácticas ocultas que aprovechan la overconfianza de las personas en su capacidad de analfabetismo medio y expandiendo su presencia en plataformas como TikTok, YouTube Shorts e Instagram Reels.
¿Qué es la resistencia cognitiva y cómo puede ayudar a combatir la desinformación?
-La resistencia cognitiva es un concepto que abarca no solo la comprensión de cómo funciona los medios de comunicación y la compartición de contenido de manera responsable, sino también la estabilidad psicológica y la capacidad de actuar racionalmente en tiempos de vulnerabilidad emocional y amenazas físicas.
¿Por qué es importante la educación en valores y la comprensión de la historia para Ucrania?
-La educación en valores y la comprensión de la historia son cruciales para Ucrania, ya que fortalecen la identidad nacional y la resistencia al propaganda rusa, recordando los esfuerzos consistentes de Rusia por socavar la identidad ucraniana y destruir su patrimonio cultural.
¿Cómo están utilizando las startups ucranianas la inteligencia artificial (IA) en la lucha contra la desinformación?
-Las startups ucranianas están utilizando la IA para ayudar a organizaciones de verificación de hechos y ONG en la detección de manipulaciones y difusión de información, así como para recopilar datos sobre las vulnerabilidades de los audiences ucranianas y mejorar la capacidad del gobierno de identificar estas vulnerabilidades.
¿Qué es la estrategia de la propaganda rusa de crear disputas artificiales?
-La estrategia de la propaganda rusa de crear disputas artificiales consiste en poner a actores políticos o figuras que parezcan ser actores orgánicos para decir cosas radicales, atacar a los aliados y crear divisiones, lo que es una táctica efectiva para sembrar la desconfianza y desunión.
¿Qué implicaciones tiene el reajuste económico y educativo de Rusia para la guerra de información?
-El reajuste económico y educativo de Rusia, orientado hacia los objetivos históricos y estratégicos de Putin de agresión y dominación, implica que Rusia probablemente aumentará su capacidad de guerra y también intensificará y hará más agresiva su guerra de información.
¿Por qué es importante recordar a los ucranios y a las audiencias occidentales la importancia de la lucha ucraniana?
-Recordar la importancia de la lucha ucraniana es fundamental porque no se trata solo de una guerra por Ucrania, sino que protege valores que las sociedades occidentales podrían estar tomando por sentados. Además, la comprensión de la historia y la cultura ucranianas es clave para evitar que la historia se repita.
¿Qué es la película '20 días en Mariupol' y cuál es su impacto en la percepción internacional de la situación en Ucrania?
-'20 días en Mariupol' es un documental que presenta una visión visceral, compleja y realista del conflicto en Ucrania. Tiene un impacto poderoso e inmediato en la percepción internacional, sirviendo como recordatorio de que el conflicto sigue siendo una realidad viva y dolorosa para los ucranios, y es una herramienta efectiva para mantener la atención y la empatía del público internacional.
¿Qué rol podría tener Ucrania en la eventual reeducación de Rusia después de la guerra?
-Ucrania podría tener un papel importante en la reeducación de Rusia, ayudando a sus ciudadanos a comprender la verdad sobre la guerra, a sentir la culpa y a construir una sociedad que no se base en ambiciones imperialistas. Esto sería esencial para la reconciliación y la construcción de un futuro pacífico y colaborativo.
Outlines
🌐 Disinformación y su impacto en la democracia y la seguridad
Este párrafo discute la amenaza continua de la disinformación para la soberanía ucraniana y su objetivo actualizado de desviar la atención y el apoyo de las democracias occidentales, especialmente en años electorales. Además, se menciona el impacto negativo en los procesos electorales y laconcepto de democracia en las sociedades occidentales, así como la estrategia de Rusia de utilizar la guerra de información para desestabilizar a los estados que considera sus enemigos naturales.
💡 Tacticas de desinformación y resistencia cognitiva
Se exploran las tácticas de desinformación de Rusia, que incluyen la creación de medios de comunicación semi-falsos y la utilización de plataformas de entretenimiento como TikTok y Instagram Reels para llegar a audiencias vulnerables. Además, se discute el concepto de resistencia cognitiva, que aborda la defensa psicológica y la estabilidad mental para contrarrestar la manipulación y la propaganda.
🛡️ La importancia de la resistencia y la defensa cultural
Este párrafo enfatiza la importancia de la resistencia y la defensa de los valores culturales y democráticos frente a los esfuerzos de desinformación y propaganda de Rusia. Se discute cómo la historia y la cultura pueden ser herramientas efectivas para fortalecer la identidad nacional y la resistencia al control mental, así como la necesidad de recordar y compartir estas historias para mantener la cohesión social y la lucha por la libertad.
🗣️ Comunicación estratégica y confianza en la sociedad
Se aborda la importancia de la comunicación estratégica y la confianza en las instituciones gubernamentales para contrarrestar la desinformación y mantener la resistencia colectiva. Se sugiere que la comunicación clara y unida por parte del gobierno ucraniano es fundamental para evitar la confusión y el miedo, que son condiciones favorables para el crecimiento de la propaganda enemiga.
🤖 El papel dual de la inteligencia artificial en la información
Este párrafo discute el doble papel que puede jugar la inteligencia artificial en la guerra de la información, tanto como herramienta para la detección y el combate a la desinformación como para el avance de la propaganda y la manipulación. Se resalta la importancia de la alfabetización en AI y la necesidad de equilibrar la comprensión de sus capacidades y peligros.
🎥 Contrarrestar la propaganda con realidad y educación
Este párrafo destaca la importancia de crear y difundir contenido realista y auténtico, como películas documentales, para contrarrestar las narrativas falsas y manipuladas. Se sugiere que estos contenidos pueden ayudar a mantener la atención y la empatía del público internacional hacia la situación en Ucrania, aunque también se reconoce los desafíos emocionales que pueden surgir al exponer la realidad del sufrimiento.
📚 Reeducación y responsabilidad hacia el futuro
Se plantea la idea de que Ucrania podría tener un papel en la reeducación de Rusia y la promoción de una comprensión más auténtica de la historia y la responsabilidad colectiva por los actos de agresión. Se enfatiza la necesidad de que Rusia reconozca y se disculpe por sus acciones para permitir que Ucrania y la comunidad internacional se recuperen y se fortalezcan.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Desinformación
💡Soberanía ucraina
💡Guerra de información
💡Elecciones
💡Resilencia cognitiva
💡TikTok
💡Propaganda rusa
💡Deepfake
💡Texty
💡Média literacia
💡Valores culturales
Highlights
Disinformation is a threat to Ukrainian sovereignty and Western democracies.
Russia's disinformation campaigns have intensified, especially during election years.
Russian propaganda targets Western societies to undermine democracy and electoral processes.
Information warfare threatens security, information security, and social stability.
Russia uses hidden tactics that play on people's overconfidence in their media literacy.
Russian propaganda is more active on social media platforms like TikTok, YouTube Shorts, and Instagram Reels.
Russia creates fake media outlets and semi-media outlets to build trust and spread propaganda.
Cognitive resilience is a concept that focuses on psychological defense and the ability to detect manipulations.
Media literacy is important, but it's not enough to counter the complex nature of disinformation.
Russian propaganda capitalizes on cultural values and undermines belief in democracy.
Ukraine's commitment to democracy is significant in world affairs and history.
The war in Ukraine is a fight for values and the defense of democratic societies.
Ukrainian history and culture are targeted by Russia to undermine national identity.
Strategic communication is key to building resilience and countering disinformation.
AI can be used to identify disinformation and improve fact-checking efforts.
The film '20 Days in Mariupol' serves as a powerful reminder of the ongoing war and its brutal reality.
Repetition in content output is necessary to counter propaganda's mantra-like approach.
The implications of Russia's shift to a war economy on information warfare are concerning.
The future may require Ukraine to play a role in re-educating Russia about its actions.
Transcripts
Disinformation continues to be a threat to Ukrainian sovereignty, but now more than ever
is being targeted at Western democracies and the allies of Ukraine.
And that is for a twin purpose.
One is to try and encourage us not to support Ukraine to victory, not to supply the
weaponry that is required for Ukraine not just to survive, but to be victorious.
The other part, of course, is to undermine electoral processes and even the concept of
democracy in the Western societies.
Information warfare threatens security, information security, social stability, and
especially in states which Russia seeks to destabilize and which sees it as its natural
enemies. And of course, we are in an election year.
We have previously talked about the influence of disinformation on the 2016 US
election, but now it feels like deja vu, and we are coming up to that point again.
And now the outcome is more significant than ever.
An isolationist US will have huge implications, not just for Ukraine, but also
for the whole of Europe.
So disinformation and information warfare is absolutely at the core of the discussions we
should be having. Welcome to the Silicone Curtain podcast.
Please like and subscribe and definitely comment against the videos, because it does
help people discover the amazing, amazing guests that we feature on the channel.
Please do also check out the validated Ukrainian charities in the description.
It's never been more important than it is now to help Ukraine remain resilient and
ensure they have the resources that they need to fight against Russian aggression.
Valeria Kovtun is deputy project director at the Zinc Network, a cognitive resilience
program rolling out in Ukraine.
Valeria was formerly head at filter, the national media literacy project founded in
Ukraine. She has also worked as a journalist at BBC rail, and has been a senior
correspondent at major Ukrainian news organizations.
And I'm delighted to say as well that she's also been on Silicon Curtain twice.
She was one of the first guests on the channel and I'm really pleased to welcome her
back again.
Thank you. There is always something to discuss.
This information is evolving, so we'll always have topics for your podcast.
And I think the news media very much focuses on the physical warfare, if it focuses at
all. Because we also know that Ukraine is is a dropped out of the headlines some extent.
Unfortunately, despite the scale of the war, despite the significance of what's going on,
and of course, despite the significance of, um, Ukraine's commitment to democracy, which
is something that really is massively important in world affairs and history.
But we also know that Russia's warfare doctrine, uh, is is only one part military.
And actually the areas that supposedly are invested in more heavily, even is the
informational space.
So do you think that has changed at all?
And how much attention should we be paying to Russia's, uh, you know, capabilities and
resources around information warfare?
It has changed in a way that Russia definitely intensified its disinformation
campaigns, not only in Ukraine but all around the world.
It's a it's a big election year.
So Russia's meddling with that a lot.
And they have they're very hidden tactics, which very often play well with people's
overconfidence as to how they view their media literacy.
Uh, there is a tendency, let's say specifically men.
It's a Ukrainian case. They tend to claim that they listen to various experts and they
want a diversity of opinions, and they know that, that it doesn't impact them.
But the human psychology is built in a way that even if you declare that something
doesn't impact you, it doesn't necessarily mean sell.
So I think it's, uh, how Russian propaganda plays very well with this kind of mindset.
And of course, Russia's, uh, in its present on various platforms and, uh, current
developments I'm seeing is that it's a way more active on TikTok and, uh, in the
vertical format, videos such as YouTube shorts, Instagram Reels, which are meant to
entertain and to serve as an escape space for Ukrainians, and to general audiences who
are tired of news and rather avoid news.
And that's the place where propaganda and disinformation can target them in their most
vulnerable state. I'd say, uh, there are many other ways Russia is intervening into
other countries, uh, political discussions in Germany, as we know, uh, AfD, uh, in, in,
in the Latin America, they tap into local context by creating a network of semi media
outlets, uh, or like fake media outlets and who tend to report on the situation on the
ground about the life of local communities.
But in the end, in between, they share bits of Russian propaganda with regards to
Ukraine. Um, and it works super well because whenever when you build trust with the
community, it's much harder to feed in bites of disinformation and propaganda, as you
probably already know.
And. Well, I was about.
To say, I mean, this feeds into because you'll know my, uh, my day job is commercial
propaganda and trying to pick apart the algorithms for commercial reasons.
But we've been paying, you know, increasing, um, attention to things like TikTok.
And that's because, you know, commercial entities want to manipulate that and get
their messages into these platforms.
And quality is an extraordinarily important criteria.
Google, as a traditional search engine, puts a huge onus on the veracity of information,
um, and the quality of information, the authority that underpins it.
And we cannot find any equivalent in, um, in most social media platforms.
But TikTok is is like that, but on steroids.
Rather they're it's trying to feed people what they want.
And that can give rise to bubbles or ecosystems of information that are extremely
distorted. I wonder, in your view, whether that happens by accident or whether actually
this is also by design.
So clearly some platforms invest more money into moderation and making sure there's, um,
there's some filters in place and whereas others are probably don't, don't see it as a
priority. And if we look at X, it's definitely a platform where Russian bots and
trolls would be more active or like any, any agents that would want to undermine
democracy, they would probably be most active there because they have less filters
to spread their propaganda there.
But when it comes to TikTok, I think, uh, it's both.
I think one fact is that indeed, Russia intensified its campaigns on TikTok and it it
I see myself it's a massive, um, tons of, uh, fake accounts, uh, moderated from Africa.
You could even see on TikTok it's publicly available.
This information, uh, which, uh, use the same type of content that are interconnected,
that they post, uh, information like videos under same hashtags, like corruption,
Ukrainian MPs, everything that's meant to divide Ukrainian society and sow disbelief.
Uh, and uh, they clearly in increase their presence there.
And because they use something that's already emotional by default and emotional
content that says about some conspiracy theories or like secretive information,
something you would never hear from a authorities in Ukraine, it sparks interest in
the audience by default.
And of course it creates more views.
It leads to more comments.
Sometimes I see them creating profiles and trying hard to like post similar videos on
daily basis, and then at some point it works as you could clearly see the increase from
500 views to like 2 million views.
Um, because they keep trying and trying and sometimes it depends on the time and the user
activity. So I, I tracked and there was an interesting research by Ukrainian
organization Texty and also Ukrainian Institute of Mass Information, who clearly
say there are ways how Russia produces um propaganda videos with AI.
They fake voice of famous Ukrainian TV presenters, they capitalize on famous media
outlets, brands, and they post their fragments of their news bulletins, but in a
completely distorted context with a deepfake, uh, with with a generated voice and
with specific very bright headlines and subtitles to grab users attention.
And we see the increase of this type of content on TikTok, not just TikTok.
Tiktok is, uh, might be a platform where it, uh, appears, but then it slowly moves to
Instagram Reels and YouTube shorts and you could see the same type of content, um, being
spread on various platforms.
So I'd say this is indeed a change of the last couple of months.
That's absolutely fascinating.
And, uh, and of course, you know, mixing prejudice and disinformation with
entertainment actually comes from a long tradition.
Even if you go back to, to, uh, you know, mainstream media and entertainment formats
that would have been produced in the 90s and 2000, that came out of Russia and hugely
influential in Ukraine as well.
But what you're building, I think is quite fascinating.
And, you know, previously we talked about media literacy, which was the program you
were involved in before.
Now you're talking about a concept called cognitive resilience.
And very much in relation to this sort of, uh, I would call it almost a heart hard core
addictive platforms like TikTok.
Um, what is this concept of cognitive resilience and how can it help to really, you
know, fight against this weaponized, um, uh, information, but actually entertainment
content.
Yeah, I think it's rather my personal observation.
I see people talking more about psychological defense and, uh, different ways
of to protect their societies from.
It's not just disinformation anymore.
It's a it's much more than just, uh, a fake story.
I think, uh, as I said, um, it's Russia uses, uh, a number of methods.
It's, uh, it can be this fake media outlets that build trust.
It can be quite renowned Western experts who promote Russian propaganda narratives.
Sometimes they do it, uh, knowingly.
Sometimes they do it not knowingly.
But Russia uses the fragments, the contexts in which they say it and multiplies this
content, making sure that Russian audiences see it.
They kind of believe that West is supportive of Russia through this fake experts or
through the experts who indeed said something, but without understanding the
consequences of them saying it.
So it's it's a number of various methods, and Russia is good at using the local context
very well. And I think we we do not just focus on media literacy in this time, because
media literacy is a lot about understanding how media works, engaging with media
responsibly, sharing content, but especially when it comes to the Ukrainian context, it's
a lot about psychological stability, about mental health and the ability to act
rationally. At times when you're physically threatened and you you are vulnerable
emotionally. So I think that is, uh, the discussion now and lots of countries have
moved away from just media literacy to more overarching concepts of either cognitive
resilience, which sounds a bit, to be honest, complicated.
And we even when I tested with different audiences, um, seems like there is a bit of a
struggle, uh, in terms of understanding cognitive part of this Tum but when when you
say psychological defense or defense from manipulations and the ability to detect
manipulations, people are like, okay, actually it's really very useful and it's
really very much needed.
Whereas media literacy, as I mentioned previously, it evokes a bit of a it creates a
bit of a, I don't know, boredom.
People are just like, oh, media literacy sounds very academic.
I don't really feel how I can apply it in real life, but psychological defense is very,
very relevant for the work context and especially if you are threatened on daily
basis. Today we we had a massive rocket attacks again on Ukraine.
In this state, when you are unsure whether you'll be able to survive, whether your
family will be safe, you need psychological resilience.
And I think what I prefer myself is the word resilience.
And it encompasses many different facets.
Uh, where I think resilience to disinformation plays a huge role to.
And this is this is a fascinating area because, you know, fact checking, um, or
media literacy emerges from some of the early experiments in counter disinformation,
like fact checking.
But as we go through, I mean, it plays an important role, but its ability to reshape
the narrative and as you say, to provide resilience to people is is negligible.
And in fact, it's far too easy to ignore it because the fact checking usually moves at a
slower pace than the initial lie.
And people have sort of moved on.
Um. So that that that says that that's a technique that plays a role, but it doesn't
counter the holistic nature of, of, uh, of disinformation propaganda.
When it comes to what you're doing.
How important are things like cultural values and belief in things like democracy
and, you know, genuine values people may hold that are coming under attack or being
undermined. Is this resilient process also a part of people being able to hold on to their
values? That gives them some kind of certainty and fight against those that would
seek to undermine and destroy a much more sort of cultural identity or values based
system.
Uh, for sure.
Fact checking is is it needs to continue.
We can't leave without fact checking.
It's a fundamental, uh, thing for any for any country.
Uh, and the more fact checking organizations we have, the better.
I think it they prove themselves, uh, in the first few months of the war, I think they
they had all the necessary expertise in place to to debunk and all the Russian
disinformation 24 over seven.
Um, but it's not it's not the only way of tackling, uh, disinformation.
And I believe in this concept that you mentioned that we need to invest in values
and, uh, clear understanding of, uh, what are we standing for?
And that every person in the society can have the personal agency to bring a change.
And I think that's a bit of a struggle or not a struggle, but rather a vulnerability
that many European old democracies in Europe have is that after many years of, uh, having,
uh, democratic freedoms for, for granted, uh, they, they just got so used to it that
now they don't see the necessity to stand for it.
And I think it's important for the governments to remind from time to time that
it's it's not something that needs to be taken for granted.
And it's, uh, there's a war happening in the middle of Europe, which is basically the war
for this values.
And I, I like quite like Estonian model of psychological defense, where they put values
in the core and then everything else is just around this main kind of idea of democratic
values. Same with Ukraine.
Um, I it's not I think I'm, I like to reread Ukrainian history quite often myself.
Um, part of the, um, result of that is the project that we launched with the former team
of filter is the, the project called We Are Here, which aims to explain Ukrainian history
and culture in, uh, kind of, um, bite content in a more like simple manner, but
based on facts and on expertise from historians.
Uh, and whenever you read it or whoever would read the Ukrainian history, they notice
a very consistent effort from Russia to undermine Ukrainian identity, to destroy any
cultural heritage, to create their own reality, to physically destroy, um, and kill
Ukrainian artists, poets, whoever who, who would advocate for existence of Ukrainian
statehood, nationhood, Ukrainian language and culture.
And we very often tend to overlook culture and history.
And we we think it's something more for entertainment and fun.
But in fact, it's a, it's a very, very strong, uh, base for many nations because
without knowing what we are standing for, without remembering how many, how many times
the Ukrainian society was exposed to massive murders, um, from Russia, from the Soviet
Union, back then, from Russian Empire, without remembering it, it's very easy to
give up and say, well, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter where our borders are and who's in charge.
But in fact, it does.
And very often when we dive deeper into history and we find stories worth sharing and
worth, uh, emphasizing, such as the massive famine in Ukraine artificially organized by
Stalin, or massive relocation of Ukrainians to blend them with Russians or any other
massive murders that were happening throughout centuries on the Ukrainian land,
with the main goal to completely destroy Ukrainian identity.
Then people have this aha moment and they say, okay, it seems like my ancestors have
been fighting for so many decades.
They died because they were not happy to put up with this regime.
And they wanted their freedom and they wanted their liberties.
Why should I be the the kind of weakling and the the, the kind of the least resilient
person in this whole chain of events so that I would undermine the whole history that was
happening before me.
And I think it creates a very strong understanding as to why we need to stand as a
nation. And this is actually a very weak spot right now that Russia uses a lot in
their propaganda campaigns.
And I keep hearing this phrase, what are we fighting for?
If there is corruption, if there is not enough support from the Western Allies?
And it's very easy to use this vulnerability for Russian propaganda, because that's
something that's already there.
So our a part of our efforts is to keep reminding Ukrainians that it's not new, that
nothing will change if you if.
Negotiations have never worked, so there should be a different way for you to stay
resilient. And here are some of the role models.
Some of the very bright examples of Ukrainian artists, political figures who who
stayed resilient and who can inspire you.
So we do that.
And to be honest, sometimes when I read history, you don't really need to invent
anything. Just read history that's written in a very clear manner, which like without
too many complications because very often it's the case.
But if you read a history that's written by a professional historian, uh, you will feel
it yourself. You don't really need to to, to read, uh, complicated academic papers proving
you something. It's it's there.
So we just need to find the right stories to share.
And I think at this stage, Ukrainians also need more stories of how they are not
forgotten and how the Western world still keeps helping them and how they're still
empathetic. Because feeling the feeling of abandonment, the feeling that you're left
out, is not contributing to the general desire to win.
So I think this is the resilience to me.
It's no longer just fact checking, because disinformation is much more complex than
just, uh, you know, uh, taking something out of the context and presenting it in a
different light. No, it's about this whole sense of disbelief, this all kind of
question, what are we fighting for?
And I think, uh, we really need to look at, uh, Russian propaganda through this lens.
Not just through fact checking.
But not just interesting. That makes a connection there with with, uh, something I
discussed in an interview I did yesterday.
And that is, um.
A certain tendency.
Certain people who are looking at the appointment or the tentative appointment of
General Valerii Zaluzhnyi to the point of ambassador in the UK.
Some people looking at it through a, I would say, an internal political lens, almost a
peace time lens.
If you speak to many Ukrainians and they send like, I don't understand why they've
done this, you know, he's being isolated.
But actually, you could argue the reverse is true, that you're taking one of the most
visible and eloquent and strong figures that represents Ukrainian resilience, and he's
going to have a big role on the European stage.
And with one of the largest allies keeping Ukraine top of mind and projecting that sort
of resilience and that idea, you've just said there that we're not forgotten it.
It will help to to to emphasize that.
Yeah, there are many ways to look at it.
I, I'm not inside of the Ukrainian government, so I can't say what was the
motivation for it.
But part of the resilience and part of this whole all framework of psychological defense
or cognitive resilience is also communication and the media environment and
strategic comms environment.
And it's probably also led by not probably it's 100% led by the Ukrainian government in
general. So we clearly need to learn to communicate things better because
communication, which is again, often overlooked or not considered to be a priority
in the war time. But as the first few months of the full scale invasion proved,
communication is key.
When Zelensky appeared in front of a multi-million audience saying that I'm here
and I've never left and I'm going to stay here till, uh, and do whatever it takes.
Um, it was a very, very clear sign, and it was very much welcomed by the Ukrainian
society. And then the regular updates from the president, um, uh, one voice policy from
the Ukrainian government.
It all is important for the Ukrainian society to stay resilient, because if there
is diversity of voices and opinions and they're not in line with each other, I'm not
talking about, um, preventing someone from sharing something because it's wartime.
I think Ukraine balances quite well there.
It's democratic efforts with the necessity to sometimes, um, restrict certain things in
the work context.
But if there is no kind of understanding as to where we are moving as, as a nation, like
as a, as a state authority, what is our one policy for communicating things?
What's our direction?
If people are lost in this comms environment and they can't communicate things clearly to
the general public, it creates confusion.
And confusion. Is a is a, is a is a ground for the propaganda?
Uh, whenever there is confusion and dissatisfaction as to how the Ukrainian
authorities communicate in certain critical moments, Russian Russia is there to, uh, come
up with new ideas and promote the messages they want to promote.
So I think it's a values is important, but values is in the core.
But then there's everything else around.
Fact checking is part.
But then strategic comms is another part.
And strategic comms should incorporate pre banking uh pre banking techniques where the
local authorities, uh governmental institutions should be able to warn the
Ukrainian society as to which campaigns can be happening in the past.
They should be able and they must know how to build this trust.
And trust is a is something that is not coming in one day.
It's something that a nations require and states require years and hundreds of years to
build. And I think when the full scale invasion started, the level of trust to the
governmental authorities increased massively, specifically trust to the
president. And it is proven by numerous surveys.
And the research shows now the trust is declining and with a declining trust, there
is a growing disinformation.
Um, so I probably lost the question that you asked me.
No. It's perfect. I mean, that that that's a really comprehensive answer, uh, which puts
it in a wider context.
And your project, we're here.
Um, how is that going to scale up?
How does that get this very important concept across of the importance of history
and being grounded in context?
How does that scale up to actual individuals in the population, different demographics,
age groups and people of perhaps different political persuasions?
Uh, so for now, it's a project that runs with, uh, people who are volunteers.
So they pitch their ideas and they send us their articles.
We work with historians as well, where they, you know, again, pitch their ideas and we
make sure that the text that they write are digestible for mass audiences.
Um, the idea is that we we actually I'm very happy that, um, it's becoming a part of many
media outlets agenda.
I think I noticed myself that many of the news outlets, in one way or another, start
talking about debunking myths.
Uh, diving deeper into history, there is a huge project called More in Ukraine that, uh,
reconsiders the Ukrainian history through very artsy perspective by creating songs and
musicals. And I think that's the way to teach young generations our history.
And it works very well.
Um, our project, which is literally translated as we are here, uh, echoing the
phrase that Zelensky said at the beginning of the full scale invasion, we are here.
We've never left. So for us, it's kind of very symbolic.
Uh, we for now work with mainly younger audience, Gen Z and Gen Z and millennials,
uh, because they seem to be most active.
And from my previous experience working with younger people, it's something that you
receive. Um, it's like you invest and you can quickly receive the, the feedback and the
results of your work because they do not just consume the information you provide,
they act that you can not only change their attitudes with the content, but you can also
change their behavior much faster than with older people.
From my experience. So very often when we communicate with younger people, we see them
sharing this materials, participating in various activities, sharing these activities
with their peers.
So I think it's, um, it's the audience that's most rewarding.
But of course, it's hard to invest in everyone at the same level, but for us, it's
probably the priority.
For now, we would like to scale up.
We would like to work more with, uh, regional content creation creators.
As you know, Ukraine is a huge country.
Um, and, uh, I'm coming from the north of Ukraine.
Uh, my some of my colleagues come from the western Ukraine, and we often are so unaware
as to the history of our regions or the culture of our regions.
So creating this exchange, uh, of between different regions where people can hear, can
feel that they are hurt, that their voices are hurt is important.
And then creating some sort of dialogues is also part of, uh, building resilience in
Ukraine.
And uh, previous interview we did with the editor of Ukraina, that's another publication
which helps to bring to life the visual aspects, at least of different regions of
Ukraine. Well, let's turn to the opposite here, which is the ongoing weaponization of
information, because on the one hand, you're trying to create, um, in a world of complex,
truthful and nuanced information that can ground people and give them immunity or
resilience against disinformation.
At the same time, the tools on the other side to scale up lies and manipulations are
accelerating with the advent of AI and some of the things you talked about earlier, sort
of deep fakes and sort of conglomeration together various sources to try and create
something that sort of almost looks like an official media publication, but which is shot
through with, uh, with, with lies.
And then the technique, of course, will then amplify that around.
So you may not consume it firsthand, but you hear it through second and third hand and,
you know, the megaphone of social media.
With the advent of AI and the era in which is iterative AI, which is getting more and
more intelligent at reacting to, you know, how people consume this information.
What what's the real threat here?
Because my impression is that AI is going to be as bad as the malign influence or the
malign intent behind those that wield it.
Therefore it's it's it's nearly infinite.
If you if you look at the malign intent that comes out of the Kremlin, there's almost no
limits to what that is.
And finally, they'll have a tool that can express the full extent of that malignancy.
I don't think I can add much to the discussion, to be honest.
There's been so much has been said already and so much has been done.
But I think, um, it's very often that we address AI as a, like a self-standing body or
like some, some evil that, uh, that works in isolation, which is not the case.
It's an instrument, and it depends who uses it and which are the regulations.
What are the, uh, who's playing with this instrument?
Some. Some people even said in the past that, you know, increasing media literacy
means also that you're increasing media literacy of potential baddies like, you know,
bad agents who's gonna be there and post content on X and be the propaganda reports of
propaganda. So, you know, you can look at everything from that perspective.
I, I'm a bit I'm a bit more positive and more more optimistic myself.
I think that AI can be extremely helpful in identifying disinformation.
And we see numerous Ukrainian startups already using AI to help the Ukrainian, uh,
fact checking organizations and NGOs to detect manipulations and spread the word
about it. Uh, I helps Ukrainian startups and other organizations to collect information
about the vulnerabilities of the Ukrainian audiences faster and identify these
vulnerabilities and work with them, or help the government identify these
vulnerabilities.
So I think there is also a lot of potential.
Um, and one important aspect of all that is that communication and warnings from the
government, I see that the UK government is already doing it, warning of potential
manipulations regarding the elections that can be coming from AI, which is great.
I think it, uh, this is the work that needs to be done, and probably governments need to
develop their own set of policy recommendations as to how they communicate
this potential threats, how often they do it, in which manner this is important.
Um, um, but in general, I think AI literacy is joining media literacy efforts these days,
and it should be part of curriculum.
I think Finland is already doing it, as always, one of the most advanced nations when
it comes to media literacy.
Um, and they incorporate AI in their, in their academic, in their academy, in the, in,
in, in the school curriculum.
And it seems like it's working.
I, I clearly know that there is a danger as to how distrustful we might become, but if we
always look at AI in the negative light and we we sow this fear and we kind of warn
people that AI is going to be everywhere, and you should be careful and do not trust
whatever you see on the internet.
This creates the distrust, which is again, a very good ground for Russian propaganda to
work with. Distrustful people are very easy, uh, to a very prone to conspiracy theories.
And it's much easier to manipulate those who do not trust anything.
And looking back at history of Russia, they specifically targeted intellectual Russians
like those who had, uh, um, few degrees and those who knew a couple of languages.
They targeted them with the message that, you know, you can watch any media abroad, you
can watch BBC. How do you know that BBC is not lying to you?
Okay, maybe Russia today is lying.
We don't deny it. But anyone else is also, you know, can be a liar.
So this is a very dangerous tactic.
And I think we shouldn't communicate AI as the evil itself, but we should rather empower
people and say, look, you should just be aware what you shouldn't do with AI because
this is unethical. But also there are so many possibilities for you to improve your
skill sets, to improve your critical thinking with the help of AI.
And this is how to do it.
And another aspect we would touch on this in a future sort of conversation.
As we've been doing these interviews, it's become clearer and clearer.
And actually the whole point of this channel is to create a continuous output is to match
propaganda in terms of its cadence of content output, and also have repetition,
because propaganda repeats things over and over and over again, almost in a kind of
mantra or brainwashing approach.
So, you know, I think it's important to do episodes on the same topic and endlessly find
different angles, but come back to them again and again and again, because otherwise
it slips from people's consciousness.
Um, so that's a conscious effort.
And what we're doing is essentially creating alternative reality, an alternative reality,
which at least has the intention to be more fact led and reality led, um, rather than to
consciously manipulate and deceive.
So if we turn to sort of the idea of creating products, not just techniques and
narratives, but actual product, to create a reality that counters, you know, the reality
that, uh, that, uh, manipulations and propaganda are creating.
How important are things like 20 days in Mariupol?
The film that's come out recently because this presents a visceral, complex and, you
know, highly sort of, you know, uh, realistic view of what's going on.
It's obviously documentary format, but it's it's incredibly kind of powerful and
immediate. Are these essential kind of things to do and to create and to put out
into the information sphere as a way of countering, uh, manipulated propaganda
narratives and propaganda product?
I think it's a bit of a slippery path to say that we create reality, uh, because there is
one reality. Mariupol happened.
This is not us creating the reality.
The film is a representative reflection of that reality.
It's just putting the reality into digestible format for different audiences.
Russia creates not reality.
It creates it's illusionary world.
It creates a world which it wants to believe in.
But it's not this world.
It's just how it wants it to be.
But it's not the reality.
It just creates something.
So I think it's a it's some discussions I often have with my friends and colleagues as
to whether there is concept of truth or not.
Um, same same here, I believe.
So there is actual reality based on facts and there is created world which is non
existent. It's just purely artificially made up.
Um, so I think that the movie, uh, is a great way to remind the world that the war is
happening. Um, as it was rightly noted, everyone wishes in Ukraine we wouldn't have
had this Oscar.
We just don't want it this way.
Um, but I think this is what exactly what international audiences need.
This is a very cruel, brutal reality that Ukrainians survives and they live in it.
And unfortunately, there is not enough of this representation of this reality in the
news media, news news outlets, in the media these days.
So this movie is like a punch in the face as a reminder that it's not over yet.
Um, sadly, it's, uh, it's very often, you know, covered in this, um, you know, it's
something that Ukrainians might find a bit, uh, surreal in many ways because many of them
still shelter in it, still spend their nights in bomb shelters.
And then there's the whole new world with, uh, Hollywood stars, celebrities celebrating
their words and celebrating the movie, which is actually about suffering.
It's just hard on a mental level.
It's hard to digest how these two worlds can coexist.
But my stance is that we do not need to question things.
This is the world we live in.
We just I mean, we just need to be persistent and we need to find ways and tools
that work for different audiences.
I very often traveling in between between Ukraine, UK and Europe, I see that there is a
very understandably, there's a sense of disillusionment, a sense of unfairness, not,
uh, from from the Ukrainian side, but it creates a bubble where Ukrainians with their
own traumas tend to validate their traumas.
But when you go outside of the bubble and you talk to Western audiences, who's missing
the context, who might understand certain pains, but not all the pains, who might be
empathetic but not understand the depth of the pain and where it comes from.
It can be frustrating for Ukrainians to deal with this, and it creates tension and
aggression between international audiences and Ukrainians.
Is this the right way to to promote, um, to promote Ukrainian narratives?
No, it's not, because if anything is if something is built on aggression, it's not
going to go anywhere.
So I'm taking the stance that you need.
One needs to use the tools that work.
And if it doesn't make you feel right at this point, because your pain is so strong
and you and you feel like no one else understands it, leave it for later.
I think it's going to be a time when Ukraine will need to recover and deal with all the
mental traumas that we are going through now, but at this stage, the goal is to win.
The goal is to come out as a democratic society and creating fights with people who
can potentially be your supporters and who can advocate for this victory is
counterproductive. So I think the movie is a great way to do it.
It's a great way to remind it.
But as you said, and you rightly noted, uh, it needs to be repetitive.
It's not enough. Movie is on the news agenda a couple of days or maybe weeks or maximum
months. But we need to produce more.
And I think Ukraine is very capable of producing very strong and powerful content.
It's just very often that we miss.
We lack this lens, we lack the context that with which international audiences work.
And I think it's sometimes, uh, where we need help from international experts and
comms experts from abroad.
And of course, one area which Russian propaganda excels at is to create artificial
disputes is to create people who may appear to be organic actors or political players and
then get them to say, you know, radical things attack allies, attack each other.
And, uh, I won't mention any names, but I think we probably all know who we're talking
about here.
Uh, a sort of. Marginal figure in Ukrainian politics, which very much fits that mold of
really, you know, creating divisive conversations.
It's a very effective Russian strategy now, that kind of thing.
Plus the other manipulations we've talked about.
This is the last question here, but we see Russia moving to a war economy footing.
We see it retooling its education system, its administration, its industry, what's left
of its industry, um, to entirely bend it towards Putin's perverted, mythical
historical objectives and strategic objectives, um, which is which is aggression
and domination.
Now, what is the implication for information warfare?
Because if they're scaling up and tooling up militarily, this implies that they will be
doing an equivalent process to build up and make their informational warfare more
aggressive even than it was previously.
I'm very worried myself, and I'm particularly worried about the children in Russia now,
because when it potentially when the war is over, we will still have to deal with
millions of children who are exposed to Russian view of the world, which has nothing
to do with reality, unfortunately.
And I think, uh, now Russia intensified its propaganda in the schools.
It's, uh, it's operating all the schools operate on, on the sense of fear, and it's
absolutely catastrophic what is happening there now and this little access from the
outside world, it's, uh, I think it's a it's a very dangerous, not just for Ukraine, but
for the whole Europe to have a neighbor like this.
Look at Sweden. They a couple of months ago, they announced they started talking about the
potential of war, something that never happened before.
I feel like the nations start feeling, um, um, a need to have some sort of wake up call
for, for like the governments.
They want to emphasize that.
Come on, guys, just don't be chill.
It's it's no longer you're no longer safe.
No one is safe.
The war has been happening for many years with no end.
And I think it's, uh, it's it's really very, very dangerous that there is no
transformation happening in Russia there.
The, the people who could potentially be the drivers of change.
They are either abroad, in Russia, but even abroad, they are still paralyzed by fear,
which creates some, you know, lack of voices in there.
Um, I, I'm actually thinking and I've discussed that a lot with historians as well,
that it might be later on in the future.
It might be part of Ukraine's responsibility to re-educate Russia whether we want it or
not. We have this neighbor, and we will have this huge country with imperialistic
ambitions for the rest of our lives.
So it might be a part of our recovery processes to also re-educate Russians and
make sure that they understand what they've done, and they feel the guilt that they need
to feel, because it's not just important for us, for the democratic societies all around
the world, but also for Ukrainians who suffered enormous loss.
I think without the understanding that Russia regrets what they what it did, and
that millions of Russians understand that they were responsible for massive killings.
It's not just this one soldier who kidnapped a child and abducted a kid.
It's it's the whole society that failed at building civic society that failed at
organizing, uh, fair elections, that failed at many democratic processes.
And they want we Ukrainians just for their own sake, for their own mental well-being and
for the ability to move on.
They need to understand that this society recognizes its mistakes.
And I think only once it's done, then Ukrainians can look into how they can
contribute to potentially building this society in Russia who they want to be
neighbors with. But before this happens, I think all the efforts need to be put into
winning the war.
And and winning the war is only possible when we have a clear understanding in mind
why we are doing it, what we are standing for.
What's our cultural background, uh, what's our history and why we don't want this
history to repeat.
And we do not. I mean, Ukrainians more or less understand it, but they clearly need to
be reminded. But the Western audiences also need to be reminded that it's not just
Ukraine's war. It's a it's a war which protects some values that they might already
be taken for granted for for many, many years.
But it's not going to be a status quo if they just keep being passive.
That's an incredibly important thought to end on.
Uh, Valeria, thank you so much.
Again. It's a huge privilege to be able to gain access to your incredible insight and
experience. And I love the fact that, you know, you're not just talking about this
theoretically. You're running experiments.
You're running projects that constantly test these hypotheses with real people.
Uh, and, and the impacts that this has on them, uh, and creating this resilience.
Thank you so much for the work you do.
Thank you so much for your time today.
Thanks for having me.
It's lovely.
Hello, I am Slava.
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