Learnskin Podcast S1 Ep 22: Skin The Traditional Chinese Medicine Way featuring Mazin Al Khafaji

Summary

In diesem Podcastdiskurs mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar geht es um die faszinierende Welt der Haut und ihrer Auswirkungen auf unsere Gesundheit, Psychologie und soziale Beziehungen. Sie sprechen mit Mazin Al-Kafaji, einem Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) Praktiker, der seine tiefe Kenntnis der chinesischen Medizin und seine Erfahrung in der Behandlung von Hautinfektionen und atopischer Dermatitis teilt. Al-Kafaji betont die Notwendigkeit einer ganzheitlichen Herangehensweise an die Behandlung von Krankheiten und betont die Bedeutung der Qualitätskontrolle in der Herstellung von Heilmitteln. Zudem diskutieren sie die Sicherheit und Effektivität der chinesischen Medizin und die Herausforderungen bei der Integration dieser Praxis in die westliche Medizin.

Takeaways

• 🌿 Die chinesische Medizin hat eine lange Geschichte und ist ständig weiterentwickelt, um Krankheiten effektiv zu behandeln.
• 🔬 Chinesische Medizin betrachtet den Körper als ein dynamisches System, das ständig die Gleichgewichtsfindung mit der Umwelt sucht.
• 🩺 Die Behandlung von Hautinfektionen und atopischer Dermatitis in der chinesischen Medizin beinhaltet drei Hauptansätze: das Auflösen, Harmonisieren und Stärken.
• 🌱 Der 'Dissipierende' Ansatz verwendet antibakterielle Inhaltsstoffe, ähnlich wie Antibiotika, aber weniger stark, um Infektionen zu behandeln.
• 🤝 Der 'Harmonisierende' Ansatz ist für chronische Erkrankungen gedacht, bei denen Bakterieninfektionen oder -ansammlungen Teil des Problems sind.
• 💪 Der 'Stärkende' Ansatz wird verwendet, um das Immunsystem zu unterstützen und die Vitalität zu stärken, um Bakterieninfektionen zu überwinden.
• 🧬 Die chinesische Medizin betrachtet die Mikrobiom-Dysbiose als eine Veränderung der Mikrobenkolonisation, die zu Hautinfektionen führen kann.
• 🌐 Mazin Al-Kafaji, ein Meisterheiler und praktizierender Chinesischer Medizin, betont die Bedeutung von Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Arzneimitteln.
• 🔬 Mazin Al-Kafaji führt klinische Tests durch, um die Sicherheit der chinesischen Medizin zu gewährleisten und sammelt Daten über die Wirksamkeit der Behandlungen.
• 🌐 Es gibt eine wachsende internationale Gemeinschaft von Experten, die an der Verbesserung der Standards und der Effektivität der chinesischen Medizin arbeiten.

Q & A

Was ist das Hauptthema des LearnScan Podcasts mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar?

Das Hauptthema des Podcasts ist die Gesichtspunkte der Haut, die in vielerlei Hinsicht unsere Gesundheit, Psychologie und den Zusammenhalt mit unserer Umgebung beeinflusst.

Wer sind Mazin Al-Kafaji und was macht er in Bezug auf die chinesische Medizin?

Mazin Al-Kafaji ist ein Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und praktizierender traditioneller Chinesischer Medizin. Er hat sein eigenes Dispensary namens Avicenna Dispensary und kümmert sich um Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Behandlungen, Hautcreme und Salben.

Wie befasst sich der Podcast mit der chinesischen Medizin in der Dermatologie?

Der Podcast geht auf die Entwicklung und Anwendung der chinesischen Medizin in der Dermatologie ein, insbesondere bei chronischen Erkrankungen und Infektionen wie atopischer Dermatitis.

Was versteht man unter der 'harmonisierenden Methode' in der chinesischen Medizin?

Die harmonisierende Methode zielt darauf ab, komplexe Formeln zu verwenden, um nicht nur eine bakterielle Kolonisation zu behandeln, sondern auch die Funktion des Körpers wiederherzustellen, um einen Zustand der Harmonie und Balance zu erreichen.

Wie wird eine bakterielle Infektion oder Kolonisation in der chinesischen Medizin angesehen?

In der chinesischen Medizin wird eine bakterielle Infektion oder Kolonisation als Teil eines komplexen Bildes betrachtet, wo sie Metaphern wie 'toxisches Hitze' oder 'feuchtes Hitze' verwenden, um die Symptome zu beschreiben.

Was sind die drei grundlegenden Ansätze der chinesischen Medizin zur Behandlung von bakteriellen Infektionen?

Die drei grundlegenden Ansätze sind die 'Verteilungsmethode', die 'Harmonisierungsmethode' und die 'Unterstützungsmethode', die jeweils auf die Art der Infektion und den Zustand des Immunsystems des Patienten abgestimmt sind.

Wie wichtig ist die Sicherheit der Patienten für Mazin Al-Kafaji?

Die Sicherheit der Patienten hat für Mazin Al-Kafaji oberste Priorität. Er führt routinemäßig Leber- und Nierenfunktionstests durch und hat eine Datenbank mit nahezu 10.000 Fällen, in denen er festgestellt hat, dass es äußerst selten zu Problemen mit den Leberenzymen kommt.

Was ist das Ziel der International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association, der Mazin Al-Kafaji beigetreten ist?

Das Ziel der ITCMDA ist es, Standards zu setzen, eine Ethik zu fördern, die kontinuierliche Bildung und Professionalität in der Welt der traditionellen chinesischen Medizin zu fördern.

Welche Rolle spielt die chinesische Medizin bei der Behandlung von chronischen Erkrankungen wie atopischer Dermatitis?

Die chinesische Medizin kann bei der Behandlung von chronischen Erkrankungen wie atopischer Dermatitis helfen, indem sie den Körper in einen stabilen Zustand zurückversetzen und die Notwendigkeit einer übermäßigen Antibiotikatherapie reduzieren kann.

Was wird im zweiten Annual Integrative Dermatology Symposium besprochen?

Das Symposium bietet eine pädagogische Erfahrung mit Informationen zu verschiedenen Themen wie Psoriasis, atopischer Dermatitis, Ernährung und Hautmikobiom, Cannabinoide, Haarausfall und traditionelle chinesische Medizin.

Outlines

00:00

🌟 Einführung in die Podcast-Serie

Der Podcast 'Learnscan' mit Dr. Raja und Dr. Hadar widmet sich der Haut, die in vielerlei Hinsicht faszinierend ist, da sie unser Wohlbefinden, unsere Psychologie und unsere Beziehungen zu anderen beeinflusst. Der Podcast beleuchtet die Kunst und Wissenschaft der Hautpflege. Die Moderatoren sind beide zertifizierte Dermatologen und betonen, dass der Podcast nur pädagogischen und informationsdienstlichen Zwecken dient und keine medizinischen Beratungen ersetzen kann. Der erste Gast ist Mazin Al-Kafaji, ein Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und praktizierender traditioneller Chinesischer Medizin, der auch über Qualitätskontrolle bei der Herstellung von Behandlungen spricht.

05:01

🌿 Grundprinzipien der chinesischen Medizin

Mazin Al-Kafaji, der Gast, führt die Prinzipien der chinesischen Medizin ein, die auf der Auffassung beruhen, dass der Körper ein dynamisches System ist, das ständig die Balance mit der Umwelt aufrechterhält. Die chinesische Medizin betrachtet den Körper und Geist als Teil der Natur und setzt auf die Restaurierung von Harmonie und Gleichgewicht. Die Behandlung von Krankheiten zielt nicht nur auf die Bekämpfung des Erregers, sondern auf die Stärkung der natürlichen Abwehrkräfte des Körpers ab.

10:02

🛡️ Ansatz zur Behandlung von Hautinfektionen

Die chinesische Medizin hat drei grundlegende Ansätze zur Behandlung von Bakterieninfektionen: den 'Verteilungsmethode', die 'Harmonisierungsmethode' und die 'Unterstützungsmethode'. Die erste ist ähnlich wie Antibiotika, aber weniger stark und wird für einmalige Infektionen wie Impetigo verwendet. Die zweite ist für komplexere, chronische Erkrankungen gedacht, bei denen Bakterieninfektionen oder -ansammlungen eine Rolle spielen. Die dritte Methode unterstützt den Immunsystem, um Bakterieninfektionen zu überwinden, insbesondere bei schwächeren Immunsystemen.

15:03

🧬 Mikrobiom und die Rolle der chinesischen Medizin

Die Diskussion umfasst auch das Mikrobiom und wie die lokale Dysbiose, insbesondere bei atopischer Dermatitis, mit einer Übervektorisierung von Staphylokokken zu einem unbalanceierten Zustand führt. Die chinesische Medizin versucht, diese Dysbiose zu harmonisieren, bevor sie außer Kontrolle gerät. Dies spiegelt sich wider in der modernen Medizin, wo Antibiotika oft für ihre antiinflammatorischen Eigenschaften und nicht nur für ihre antibakteriellen Wirkungen eingesetzt werden.

20:04

🔬 Sicherheit und Lehre in der chinesischen Medizin

Mazin Al-Kafaji betont die Bedeutung der Sicherheit in der chinesischen Medizin und beschreibt seine Praxis, bei der er alle Patienten auf Leber- und Nierenfunktionen überprüft. Er hat eine Datenbank mit nahezu 10.000 Fällen, die zeigen, dass es äußerst selten zu Problemen mit Leberenzymen kommt. Mazin ist auch ein renommierter Lehrer, der anderen, wie chinesische Medizin angemessen angewandt werden kann, beiträgt. Er beteiligt sich an der Bildung von Fachleuten und fördert die Einhaltung von Standards und ethischen Richtlinien in der Welt der chinesischen Medizin.

25:06

🌐 Internationale Zusammenarbeit und Fortbildung

Mazin Al-Kafaji spricht über die Gründung der International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association (ITCMDA), die darauf abzielt, Standards und ethische Richtlinien in der chinesischen Medizin zu etablieren und die kontinuierliche Bildung und Professionalität in diesem Bereich zu fördern. Die ITCMDA ist eine internationale Gemeinschaft, die auch konventionelle Ärzte aus verschiedenen Ländern umfasst. Der Podcast endet mit einer Ankündigung des zweiten jährlichen Integrative Dermatology Symposiums, bei dem Mazin Al-Kafaji sprechen wird.

Keywords

💡Haut

Die Haut ist das äußere Gewebe des Körpers und spielt eine zentrale Rolle in der Gesundheit, Psychologie und sozialen Interaktionen. Im Kontext des Podcasts wird die Haut als das Hauptthema behandelt, das von den Gastgebern ausführlich diskutiert wird. Die Haut wird als ein faszinierendes Organ betrachtet, das in vielerlei Hinsicht betroffen ist und die Basis für die Gespräche über Hautpflege und Dermatologie bildet.

💡Traditionelle chinesische Medizin

Traditionelle chinesische Medizin (TCM) ist ein zentrales Thema des Podcasts, das von Mazin Al-Kafaji, einem Meisterheilpflanzenkundler und TCM-Praktiker, vertreten wird. TCM wird als eine der ersten Alternativen zur westlichen Medizin angesehen, insbesondere in der Dermatologie. Im Podcast wird die Bedeutung von TCM im 21. Jahrhundert diskutiert, einschließlich ihrer Anwendung bei chronischen Erkrankungen und Hautinfektionen.

💡Atopische Dermatitis

Atopische Dermatitis ist eine häufige Hauterkrankung, die im Podcast als ein Beispiel für eine chronische Hautinfektion diskutiert wird, die durch Bakterien wie Staphylococcus aureus (Staph A) komplizier werden kann. Die Behandlung und Prophylaxe von Atopie wird als ein Anwendungsbereich für TCM-Prinzipien behandelt, insbesondere im Hinblick auf die Wahrung der Gesundheit durch die Harmonisierung des Mikrobiom und die Stärkung des Immunsystems.

💡Mikrobiom

Das Mikrobiom bezieht sich auf die Gemeinschaft von Mikroorganismen, die in und auf dem menschlichen Körper leben. Im Podcast wird das Mikrobiom in Bezug auf die lokale Dysbiose bei atopischer Dermatitis und die Rolle von Staph A als ein Beispiel für eine unbalanceierte Kolonisation diskutiert. Die TCM-Methoden zielen darauf ab, das Mikrobiom zu harmonisieren, um die Gesundheit der Haut zu erhalten.

💡Immunsystem

Das Immunsystem ist für den Körperschutz vor Krankheiten verantwortlich. Im Podcast wird die Rolle des Immunsystems bei der Bekämpfung von Bakterieninfektionen und der Bedeutung der Stärkung des Immunsystems durch TCM-Praktiken diskutiert. Die Verwendung von TCM zur Unterstützung eines gesunden Immunstatus wird als ein Mittel zur Vorbeugung und Behandlung von Hautinfektionen betrachtet.

💡Antibiotika

Antibiotika werden im Podcast als ein westliches Medikament erwähnt, das zur Bekämpfung von Bakterieninfektionen verwendet wird. Die Diskussion umfasst die Notwendigkeit, Antibiotika angemessen einzusetzen, um die Entwicklung von resistenten Bakterien zu verhindern. TCM wird als eine Alternative oder Ergänzung zu Antibiotika diskutiert, um die Notwendigkeit von Antibiotika bei chronischen Erkrankungen zu reduzieren.

💡Sicherheit

Sicherheit ist ein Schlüsselbegriff im Zusammenhang mit der Verwendung von TCM. Im Podcast wird die Bedeutung der Sicherheit und der Überwachung von Patienten durch Leber- und Nierenfunktionstests betont. Mazin Al-Kafaji, der Gast, erwähnt, dass er alle seine Patienten auf mögliche Nebenwirkungen überwacht, um sicherzustellen, dass die Behandlungen sicher sind.

💡Lehren

Lehren und das Übermitteln von Wissen sind zentrale Aspekte des Podcasts. Mazin Al-Kafaji wird als renommierter Lehrer und Mentor für TCM-Praktiker beschrieben. Sein Beitrag zur Ausbildung von Ärzten und der Verbesserung der Standards in der TCM-Gemeinschaft wird betont, und sein Engagement für die Weiterbildung und das Sammeln von Daten zur Effektivität von TCM wird diskutiert.

💡Integrative Dermatologie

Integrative Dermatologie ist ein Ansatz, der verschiedene medizinische Disziplinen und Behandlungsmethoden kombiniert, um Patienten das beste Ergebnis zu bieten. Im Podcast wird dies als ein Ziel der Diskussionen und des bevorstehenden Symposiums betrachtet, das von den Gastgebern organisiert wird. Die Veranstaltung soll Fachleuten aus verschiedenen Bereichen der Dermatologie zusammenbringen, um über integrative Ansätze zu sprechen.

💡Symposium

Das Symposium ist eine bevorstehende Veranstaltung, die im Podcast erwähnt wird. Es wird als eine Plattform für die Diskussion von integrativen Ansätzen in der Dermatologie dargestellt, einschließlich der Verwendung von TCM. Die Veranstaltung soll Experten aus verschiedenen Ländern zusammenbringen, um über die neuesten Entwicklungen und Ansätze in der Dermatologie zu sprechen.

Highlights

Dr. Raja Sivamani and Dr. Hadar Levtov introduce Mazin Al-Kafaji, a master herbalist and traditional Chinese medicine practitioner.

Mazin Al-Kafaji discusses the evolution of Chinese medicine and its relevance in the 21st century.

Chinese medicine's approach to health is based on the dynamic balance of the body-mind system.

Mazin explains the three basic protocols of Chinese medicine for treating bacterial infections.

The dissipating method is used for one-off infections, similar to antibiotics but less potent.

The harmonizing method is used for chronic diseases where bacterial colonization is part of the picture.

The supporting method focuses on a weakened immune state and uses ingredients to stimulate the immune system.

Mazin emphasizes the importance of restoring harmony in the body after removing infection.

Chinese medicine principles can be applied to skin infections and atopic dermatitis.

Mazin shares his experience with clinical trials on Chinese medicine for atopic eczema.

Safety of Chinese medicine is a priority, with Mazin conducting liver and kidney function tests on his patients.

Mazin's practice includes creating his own high-quality herbal medicines with full quality control.

The International Traditional Chinese Medicine Dermatology Association aims to set standards and promote ethical practice.

Mazin teaches Chinese medicine to both conventional doctors and practitioners, emphasizing practical clinical application.

The podcast concludes with an invitation to the Integrative Dermatology Symposium where Mazin will be speaking.

Transcripts

welcome to the learnscan podcast with dr

raja and dr haddar where they discuss

all things skin skin is fascinating

because it affects us in so many ways

like our health psychology and how we

connect with those around us

this podcast delves into the art and

science of skin care

a short disclaimer before we get to the

good stuff dr raj sivamani and dr hadar

levtov

are board certified dermatologists this

podcast is meant for educational and

informational purposes

only all opinions shared do not express

the views of learned skin

neither this podcast nor any information

contained within it are a substitute for

professional care by a doctor

or other qualified medical professional

this podcast does not constitute medical

or other professional advice or services

hey raja how are you today

hey adar how are things things are going

pretty good i think

we have another podcast today and you

know i

am very very excited about our guest

today because when

people ask me about alternative

approaches to

medicine in general chinese medicine is

one that i think of one of the first

ones that comes to mind

and when i think of chinese medicine

dermatology i

i don't think anybody thinks of anybody

else but our guest today would you like

to introduce our mystery guest

oh our mystery guest is quite well known

it's

mazin al-kafaji he's master herbalist

and he has been studying chinese

medicine

probably in the most authentic way of

anyone i've ever met

so mazin is not only is he a master

herbalist and traditional chinese

medicine practitioner

he also talks a lot about quality and

quality control on how

the treatments are made and he has his

own dispensary called the avicenna

dispensary

i've been there it is such a workshop of

how they've put together this

whole process and he has his own herbs

and

he you know has full quality control i

think not only about just

making orals and what what now he's also

got a way of making an effective range

of skin creams and ointments

and so uh we truly are in for a treat

today because

it's from beginning to end master

diagnostician he's got a great

photograph room

and the ability to control how he's

going to be delivering each of the

treatments that he's going to be doing

uh mazin welcome and we're so excited to

be talking to you today on the podcast

welcome

roger thank you very much that's an

awesome introduction

it's a great pleasure for me to be here

thank you absolutely and

i think not to give away your age but

mazin has been practicing and

actually publishing uh since the last

century and the reason i mentioned this

is because he has been witnessing

firsthand

how the approach to chinese medicine and

dermatology

has evolved over the years so i would

like to start our discussion

maybe mazin by you telling us why should

our listeners care about chinese

medicine in the 21st century isn't this

some ancient thing that somebody found

in a scroll a while back

well it certainly is ancient i mean it's

history goes back to the very dawn of

time really with the bone oracle

carvings of

names of diseases especially actually

skin disease but

what's so interesting about chinese

medicine is over the centuries

it's evolved it's gathered information

empirically

and really just developed into what we

see today which

i'm certainly a great fan because i use

it and i see its power

you know in china there are literally

thousands of hospitals where

traditional chinese medicine is

practiced and the chinese are very

practical people they won't

use something like this unless it had

its part to play they're

also very excited and use western

medicine

but they haven't abandoned their

traditional methods of treating

particularly chronic disease and i think

that's where chinese medicine comes

into its own it's the managing and

treating of these

persistent recalcitrant chronic diseases

that we see so much of

in this day and age mazin just to give

everyone a little bit of a background

i think a lot of people get piqued when

they start hearing about

traditional chinese medicine how ancient

it is can you give us just a small

overview on what are the

principles just in broad terms of how

you approach

the notion of health the notion of

imbalance

not being at harmony what is the central

tenant

of the approach and what is the way that

you approach

looking at treatments i think what's

really interesting about chinese

medicine or chinese science really and

it is a science

is their understanding that the body

mind system is a

complete dynamic fluctuating system

that's constantly adjusting itself

relative to the external environment

you know to maintain that equilibrium

that we think of as health

so their approach to understanding

how the body works and what happens when

it doesn't work correctly

is really based in that understanding

so they start with the premise that we

are part of nature

and like any ecosystem that we see

around us we are highly sophisticated

and really the approach to treatment of

disease is not just to

attack the the pathogen or the

disease process but to encourage a

restoration of

of harmony and balance to

this living organism that is so

incredible of course this sentient

beings that we are

thank you that's such a great way to

introduce the concept

i like the way you mention the concept

of maintaining health that's

probably the very definition of

integrative medicine and dermatology

specifically

i wanted i mean there's a such a wide

array of topics we can talk to you about

and i think today we wanted to maybe

focus

on some part of focus ourselves around

skin infections and i think the first

thing i wanted to talk to you about

is the concept of skin infection and

atopic dermatitis

i think there's clear notion at least in

the western

side of things that staph aureus maybe

some other bacteria play a role not only

in complicating the disease

but also in propagating the condition

and i'm wondering how do you approach

these

cases overall when you see because i

know that you treat

people with atopic dermatitis daily and

how do you

how do you approach this treatment for

prevention especially

employing chinese medicine principles

that talk about maintenance of health

yeah i think a really good way to

introduce that is just to speak very

briefly about how chinese medicine

tackles

bacterial infection or we can say also

bacterial colonization

so if i may just present an overview of

this absolutely go for it so we say that

when treating what we today will call

bacterial infection

chinese medicine has three basic

protocols for approaching it the first

is really to to treat what we call or to

use a method that's called the

dissipating method

and that is really equivalent to using

primarily antibacterial ingredients to

overact on bacteria and kill them off so

it's similar to antibiotics but

not as powerful as antibiotics but

actually very sufficient in many

instances

so we'd use it for treatment of one-off

infections

such as impetigo or furunkules

mastitis and such like so in this

instance

topical or as well internal medicine if

the disease is more

rampant are used to control the bacteria

and kill it off

and allow really the body's immune

system to re-establish

a stable state subsequently so usually

no follow-up treatment is required

that's the what we call a dissipating

method

the harmonizing method which is really

most

relevant for what you talking about

is used for more complex and typically

chronic diseases

where bacterial infections or

colonizations form

part of that picture in otherwise

relatively intact

immune system so here we use complex

formulae

to not only deal with the colonization

of the bacteria as we see it so in

chinese medicine we have our own

metaphors or language to describe that

of course

they didn't have this concept of

bacteria but they certainly understood

the concept that um

the body could be attacked by an

exterior pathogen

that then resides in the body so complex

formula are used to

not only resolve that what we might call

a toxic heat or a

or a damp heat pathogen in other words

treating the bacteria depending on how

it manifests

but most crucially to restore

function to the body once you've

achieved that

so just by using strong what we call

antibacterial

or antibiotic medicines in this day and

age

would be considered insufficient to

restore that harmony that the body is

lost

which really would have allowed the

colonization to take place i don't know

whether i made myself

clear there but perfectly clear actually

quite eloquently

as usual thank you so that's the the

harmonizing method and i can

easily speak more about that but the

third and final

protocol that we use for bacterial

infections is what we call a supporting

method

and that sort of segues into the

harmonizing method as well

and it's used in similar fashion so

basically not only

tackling the bacterial infection but

encouraging a

normality to emerge in the immune system

but in this instance

the focus is put rather on a weakened

immune state

and we use medicinals that are

supporting or what we call tonifying

ingredients that actually stimulate

immune system to work better

in order to be able to overcome the

bacterial infection

so typically we might use that method

for cases such as

mrsa mrsa type situations

in elderly patients or patients with

ulcers let's say

where they're the basic

foundation of their vitality is

insufficient to

dispose of this pathogen

what i think is really interesting about

what you're talking about it speaks to

concepts that

we are now utilizing in i think the

western approach i mean

antibiotics of course is to reduce

infections that are overt

now with the colonization as you

mentioned especially for atopic

dermatitis this really raises this

conversation about the microbiome

because we know that the local

microbiome

tends to be as we'd say dysbiotic with

an overgrowth of staph aureus

and of course the colonization there is

out of balance and then

i can't think of any better word than to

say a harmonizing method is exactly what

you're trying to do

in that scenario you're trying to

harmonize the bacteria before

it gets out of hand you know that's very

interesting and i think stimulating the

immune system we all know that there are

infections

let alone bacteria but even other

infections of course that sometimes

require the immune system to be

stimulated so

i think it's very interesting that these

concepts were there for millennia

and that they've been used in treatment

approaches so it's very interesting

yeah i know totally the case and

actually i draw parallels with what we

see around us

we see the kind of problems that we're

now facing in the world

a lot of them arise from really lack of

appreciation

of the interplay between the environment

around us and

our own environment so obviously we're

part of the

nature and part of the environment we

can't remove ourselves from this so

in the same way that in order to really

really tackle

climate change or the way forests grow

or don't grow

then we need to take into account all

aspects and

i think any system that starts with that

premise the understanding that we're

part of the integrated whole

it's a good place to start that's for

sure

so perhaps you could give us some

examples

of how you utilize this in practice i

mean i know that

we've we've had other podcasts about

chinese medicine and i think at this

point our listeners

understand that every case is is

different but by and large how do you

approach a specific

case of superficial infection let's say

in a kid or adult with atopic dermatitis

okay so that's a problem i see a lot of

in my practice

and i should also say actually at this

point in case i don't have a chance to

say it

other conditions where antibiotics are

often used in modern medicine

such as treatment of acne or rosacea

or chronic folliculitis this type of

problem also we use this

method so really what we're doing is

understanding from perspective of

chinese medicine

what is going on with the body so we

have our own metaphors

to describe real clinical events they

may sound odd to the modern ear

but i assure you they're they're it's

very much

part and parcel of the reality of what

we see in practice so

not unreasonably doctors ancient doctors

borrowed metaphors from nature to

describe these events so we might speak

about

heat or dampness or toxin and so on

so we use the first port of core when

faced with a patient

with atopic eczema who has let's say a

recurring infection

it may be really overt so there is you

know weeping

crusting patches of clear black locus

aureus

golden bacteria crusts

or it may be more subtle so the patient

may be prone to get some folliculitis or

really persistent eczema that just is

not

controlled properly with the usual

methods so

we make an assessment of that and as i

say we use

these these metaphors that we that we

understand fully and prescribe a formula

of medicines to

really to to counteract that pattern so

let's say a patient has

what we might consider toxic heat

alongside what we call blood heat

with wind so these are metaphors that

will make

complete sense to somebody who's versed

in chinese medicine

but so we'll formulate a prescription

that directly tackles that and chinese

medicine really is

it's it's a matter of understanding

these ingredients and how they combine

in order to resolve that kind of pattern

so let's say in this patient who's who's

had this low-grade infection

from by prescribing that kind of

medicine the toxic heat is removed so we

see a clear improvement

let's say there's no more infection or

there's folliculitis is cleared

well then the treatment is not over by

any means we then need to

move to the next step which is to

restore that

harmony and equilibrium that i was

speaking of earlier

in order that the the body is able to

maintain

that stability so really we understand

that in a situation where

illness takes over then the body is

unable to claw its way back to a stable

state so

the doctor's task is not only to

rid the patient of this toxic heat as we

see it

but to restore normal function

in order that the system can maintain

that once you've

taken away the buttresses or the the

help that

has achieved that mazdan thanks for

taking us through that i think

one of the things that's incredible

about thinking about these conditions

because the ones that you mentioned when

you talk about acne or rosacea

or when we say low-grade infect

infection we can just call that you know

over-colonization that's getting way out

of balance or atopic dermatitis

yes we do use antibiotics but i think we

all realize

in within dermatology and recurrent

folliculitis that

obviously has this low grade over

colonization that

then can prolong to become a

folliculitis that keeps coming back over

and over again

like you mentioned these are chronic

conditions where the antibiotics serve a

purpose to be perhaps more of an

anti-inflammatory

or at least just to get a colonization

back under control

and it's been a challenge i think

amongst our field i think

many of us would agree that the

challenge is that we want to try to

reduce antibiotics for those

situations where there's a clear-cut

overt

infection that is getting out of control

and using the antibiotics in that kind

of a scenario

but we do we really do struggle when

it's

being used for this chronic

anti-inflammatory reasons

or for for lack of a better term to try

to harmonize the body before it gets out

of control i mean we

we have our approaches so i think

listening to you talk about this is

incredibly

important because it shows that there

are other options to try to keep that

anti-inflammatory stance for

these conditions without necessarily

using up antibiotics which are so

important that we use them up

appropriately so we don't start getting

drug resistant bacteria and whatnot

yeah completely the case i mean

antibiotic resistance as you know is one

of the biggest threats really to global

health

and more and food security and

development and really an urgent

urgently new approaches to the use of

this wonderful medicine i mean

antibiotics are incredible medicine

but they need to be used appropriately

and particularly if there are

other options where actually you can

nudge the body back into a stable state

which is of course

very accessible i mean we take for

granted how well the body maintains

health but it's a it's it's a miracle a

minute

that this is the case so really with a

bit of help

we can we can really avert the need i'm

convinced of this because i do this

day in day out and have as you say done

it for 30 odd years

i'm convinced that chinese medicine has

a part to play

in reducing this burden that excessive

antibiotic

use i agree and

a few things that come to mind when i

heard you speak

one thing was about the idea that not

only when you see an overt

infection on a topic but you see flare i

think when you see a flare and you're

not sure what's going on at least one of

my teachers always say you know think of

staff

that's probably driving this we also try

to target that and i think it's very

interesting that these

observations have been made for

millennia you know one of the things

that i wanted to ask you because this

comes up in my conversations

with other practitioners about chinese

medicine and i wanted to

take advantage of your perspective

because i know you worked through the

years a lot the western dermatologist

is the issue of safety sometimes that's

brought up as an issue with chinese

medicine and i know that you from our

conversations and from listening to your

talks before

i know that you go to a great extent to

ensure your patients safety can you

speak to that because i think it's

important

for people to feel comfortable working

with chinese medicine practitioner and

collaboration to know that

their patients are safe yeah totally

obviously

above all patient has to be safe you

know i got involved when i came back

from china

30 odd years ago with some

dermatologists who were way ahead of

their time i would say and ran some

clinical trials on the treatment of

atopic eczema

using chinese medicine because they'd

noticed that patients of theirs had

shown remarkable improvement using this

method of treatment

and of course it was standard policy

then to do a liver and kidney function

tests alongside

the trials that they ran incidentally

the trials were

showed spectacular improvement in the

patients that they took on and they were

all severe cases

but at that stage there was also this

question mark about

safety of chinese medicine which of

course is always paramount

so from that time onwards i have tested

all my patients in-house run liver and

kidney function tests

on all of them and i'd say by now i must

have

close to 10 000 cases in my database

and i can tell you that it's extremely

rare

to to get any elevation which is

problematic of liver enzymes let's say

kidney i've i've never seen any problems

at all

liver enzymes sometimes can fluctuate

and go upwards but it's extremely

uncommon

to see anything going beyond slight

elevations as i say

and quite often they return to normal of

their own account

if they continue to rise and there's a

problem and sometimes that can happen

then obviously we will draw the medicine

and that's the end of that that

type of medicine may not be appropriate

so those would be idiosyncratic

responses

but by now even though i continue to

test all my patients

i feel that it's really being

using the belt embraces method as we say

and really being

extra cautious and also just to continue

to collect data

but i'm convinced that chinese medicine

in the grand scheme of things

is a very safe form of treatment yes

and thank you for mentioning testing and

continuing your database because i think

your approach is so inspiring

to other practitioners that really have

a need for

real data to support decisions and i

think you've been a champion of that and

i think we all are grateful for you for

doing that and you mentioned your

practice and i think in the introduction

we didn't mention one very important

thing is that you are really a renowned

teacher

and teach others how to practice chinese

medicine in an appropriate way

because there is that tendency sometimes

trying to take chinese medicine and put

it into a capsule and sell it

and i think from i think from our

conversations from conversations i've

had with other chinese medicine

practitioners

that is probably not the way to do this

so i

i think i wanted to ask you when you are

getting other doctors come to your

clinic you do your

famous fellowship what do you notice

about how they

change over time and their thinking

because they probably come from

understanding of some western

medicine and how they think about

chronic disease when

they go through your fellowship

you know it's a whole range of things

actually i teach a lot in germany

and austria and switzerland where the

majority of my

students are actually conventional

doctors many of them are

dermatologists or immunologists there's

a lot of interest in

in those countries in the role of

chinese medicine can play in

treatment of chronic disease whereas in

britain or in

the us most of my students actually are

practitioners of chinese medicine so

most of them would have had to have gone

through a four-year

program and get a degree in chinese

medicine so

it's quite varied really the approaches

or the expectations of people can be

quite varied having said that the german

and austrian doctors are also usually

very well

versed in chinese medicine when i what i

teach is really immunology

and dermatology which i'll include also

allergy there because these are all

conditions that i see a lot of so really

i just i

present more detail in those areas

to my students and i see over a period

of time because my approach to treat to

teaching is very practical

and clinic clinical based understanding

of

how they should use chinese medicine

which is a

seriously sophisticated system which

uses a vast range of ingredients in

combinations

in order to achieve changes in the body

so it's

it's really it's not an easy thing to to

get your head around and it takes many

years to

develop that that knowledge base

but i think we're increasingly getting

that type of standard so chinese

medicine really is in its infancy in the

west

but in the past 20 30 years it's it's

moved on a lot

with that in mind i've in the past

year or so have finally collected

together some like-minded people and

people with good experience and

good training many of them have done so

for decades

and set up this international

traditional chinese medicine

dermatology association to try and

really set a standard

and encourage sort of a code of ethic

continual educational development

training and professionalism in in our

world which is still

needs that in order to really establish

and

get the very best out of what chinese

medicine can do

mazin we in ayurveda we joke about not

using scrolls anymore and

moving to the 21st century with a

website and i'm assuming that

the itc mda has a website as well is

that correct

that's correct yes you know what we'll

do actually we can put it into the

description when we say when we put this

podcast out there we'll put it in the

description so that if people want to

learn more about the association

which i think by the way is a very

important movement and i

i'm thrilled to see that you're really

thinking about this the code of ethics

and

actually getting a group of like-minded

people that's

wonderful there's a ground swell there

so we'll make sure that can include that

thank you yes it's very exciting because

also it's an international

community so i have many of the european

doctors and many of them are

conventional doctors as well as the

north american

group so it is definitely an

international organization

and we have a lot of people with good

experience who are really pushing that

forward

so the idea really is to have a standard

and get people to

belong to the association and maintain

their skill set

with time and and hopefully we can

demonstrate

more clearly with clinical trials and

such like the efficacy of

chinese medicine is going forward well

that is an unbelievably important cause

so uh thank you for championing that

and giving us a hint for your teaching

abilities because

i know that you're coming to san diego

to the integrative dermatology symposium

to speak in more detail about various

topic and dermatology and so i'm

eager to hear more and i think all our

listeners are probably eager to hear

more so we're looking forward to your

talk and other workshop that i think

you're running there that'll be at the

integrative dermatology symposium this

coming october in san diego so with that

i think i want to thank you

this was this has been such a great

stimulating discussion we went through

the principle of chinese medicine talk

about infection went to

teaching and championing safety and

research and data

in chinese medicine i mean i think we

covered so much in such a little time

and there's so much more to cover so

thank you very much

raja thank you very much for giving me

this platform it's really wonderful

i very much look forward to coming to

san diego in october

thank you thank you for tuning in to the

learnskin podcast with dr raja and dr

hadar we would like to take this moment

to tell you about our upcoming second

annual integrative dermatology symposium

to be held at the coronado island

marriott in san diego california

this program is an educational

experience jam-packed with information

including case-based discussions and

multiple perspectives on topics such as

psoriasis

atopic dermatitis diet and skin

microbiome

cannabinoids hair loss traditional

chinese medicine and much much more

go to

www.integrativedermatologysymposium.com

and register today we look forward to

seeing you there

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you