Is Donbas historically Russian or Ukrainian? | Serhii Plokhy and Lex Fridman
Summary
TLDRThe script discusses the complex history and current situation of the Donbas region in Ukraine. It highlights the principle of nationalism and how it influenced the political and cultural borders in Eastern Europe. The industrialization of Donbas during the Russian Empire led to a diverse population, with a significant Russian presence. Economic decline and the Rust Belt narrative are also key factors in the region's challenges. The script touches on the role of Russia in the destabilization of Donbas, with key figures linked to Moscow. It also addresses the narrative of ethnic Russian persecution, contrasting it with the reality of language use in the region.
Takeaways
- 🌏 The principle of nationalism seeks to align political borders with ethnic and cultural ones, influencing the mapping of East European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries.
- 📈 Donbas was considered Ukrainian due to its majority Ukrainian population at the beginning of the 20th century and was claimed during revolutionary wars.
- 🏭 Donbas became a key industrial site in the Russian Empire due to its mining and metallurgical industries, attracting workers from various parts of the empire.
- 👥 The population of Donbas became ethnically mixed, with Ukrainians still forming the majority but not necessarily in urban areas, leading to a growing Russian cultural influence.
- 🏙️ Apart from Crimea, Donbas had a significant Russian ethnic presence, though they were not the majority, they were a substantial and influential group.
- 🏗️ Donbas experienced a dramatic economic decline as a classic Rust Belt region, with mines no longer producing coal at acceptable prices, leading to job losses and social issues.
- 🔥 The situation in Donbas was destabilized by the Russian Federation, exploiting economic and ethnocultural factors, with key figures in the region having ties to Moscow.
- 💬 Russia's justification for involvement in Donbas is framed as a defensive war to protect ethnically Russian people, though this narrative is contested.
- 🗣️ The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and in Donbas and Crimea, it is common to hear Russian spoken, contrary to claims of linguistic oppression.
- 🚫 The absence of mass mobilizations of Russians in Crimea and Donbas prior to Russian military involvement suggests that the narrative of self-defense may be an excuse for intervention.
Q & A
What is the principle of nationalism as mentioned in the script?
-The principle of nationalism is about making political borders coincide with ethnic and cultural borders.
How was the region of Donbas considered in the early 20th century?
-Donbas was considered to be Ukrainian, as the majority of its population were Ukrainians at the beginning of the 20th century.
What led to the ethnic and cultural mix in Donbas?
-The industrialization and mining industry in Donbas attracted people from various parts of the Russian Empire, leading to a mixed population.
How did the city of Mariupol's population composition change?
-In Mariupol, ethnic Russians constituted over 40% of the population, making them a significant group despite not being the majority.
What is the economic situation of Donbas described as in the script?
-Donbas is described as a classic Rust Belt, with its mines no longer producing coal at an acceptable price, leading to job losses and economic decline.
How did the Russian Federation view the situation in Donbas?
-The Russian Federation saw the situation as a defensive war against what they perceived as the Ukrainian government's actions against ethnically Russian people.
What role did economic and ethnocultural factors play in the conflict in Donbas?
-Economic decline and ethnocultural tensions were key factors that made it easier for the Russian Federation to destabilize the situation in Donbas.
What was the claim about the Russian language in Ukraine?
-The claim was that the Russian language was not persecuted in Ukraine, and it was common to hear Russian spoken in both Donbas and Crimea.
How did the presence of key figures with Moscow connections influence the situation in Donbas?
-Key figures with connections to the Russian government and intelligence structures played significant roles in the early stages of the conflict in Donbas.
What is the argument made by the Russian Federation regarding the war in Donbas?
-The Russian Federation argues that the war is a defensive measure to protect ethnically Russian people from actions by the Ukrainian government.
What is the reality of the Russian language's presence in Donbas and Crimea?
-In reality, the Russian language is widely spoken and there is no significant persecution of Russian speakers in Donbas or Crimea.
Outlines
🗺️ Historical and Cultural Background of Donbas
The first paragraph discusses the historical and cultural significance of the Donbas region, highlighting the principle of nationalism and its impact on the political and ethnic borders of Eastern European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries. It explains how Donbas, initially Ukrainian-majority, became a key site for industrialization in the Russian Empire, attracting people from various parts of the empire, leading to a mixed population. The paragraph also touches on the economic challenges faced by Donbas as a Rust Belt region, the decline of its mining industry, and the social issues that arose from it. Additionally, it mentions the role of Russia in destabilizing the region and the presence of Russian figures in key positions during the conflict.
📣 Russian Influence and the Situation in Donbas
The second paragraph delves into the Russian government's perspective on the situation in Donbas, framing it as a defensive war to protect ethnically Russian people. It challenges this narrative by pointing out the lack of independent Russian mobilization in Crimea or Donbas without Russian presence or occupation. The paragraph also addresses the reality of the Russian language's status in Ukraine and Donbas, refuting the claim that Russian speakers are persecuted, as evidenced by the difficulty of finding Ukrainian language use outside of specific contexts.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Nationalism
💡Donbas
💡Industrialization
💡Rust Belt
💡Ethnic Russians
💡Economic Implosion
💡Destabilization
💡Ethnocultural Factors
💡Linguistic Factors
💡Geopolitical Strategy
Highlights
Nationalism is the principle of aligning political borders with ethnic and cultural borders.
The map of many East European countries in the 19th and 20th centuries was drawn based on the principle of nationalism.
By the early 20th century, the region of Donbas was predominantly Ukrainian.
Donbas became a key site in the Russian Empire for early industrialization, particularly in mining and metallurgical industries.
The industrialization of Donbas attracted people from various parts of the Russian Empire, leading to a mixed population.
In cities like Mariupol, ethnic Russians constituted over 40% of the population.
Donbas is a classic example of a Rust Belt, experiencing economic decline and social issues similar to those in the United States.
The economic downturn in Donbas led to job losses and a reliance on government subsidies.
The Russian Federation exploited the economic and ethnocultural situation in Donbas to destabilize the region.
Key figures in the early stages of the conflict in Donbas had strong ties to the Russian government and intelligence structures.
The war in Donbas is portrayed by Russia as a defensive action to protect ethnically Russian people.
The Russian language is not persecuted in Ukraine, and it is widely spoken in Donbas and Crimea.
The claim of persecution of ethnic Russians or Russian speakers in Donbas is questioned due to the widespread use of the Russian language.
The situation in Donbas is multi-dimensional, involving economic, ethnocultural, and linguistic factors.
The Russian presence and occupation were crucial for the mobilization of ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas.
The lack of independent mobilization of ethnic Russians in Donbas before the arrival of Russian military units is noted.
The pretext of protecting ethnic Russians is seen as an excuse for Russian actions in Donbas.
The reality on the ground in Donbas and Crimea contradicts the narrative of persecution of Russian speakers.
Transcripts
maybe you can tell me about the region
of danas I mentioned that nationalism
and principle of nationalism is the
principle of uh making the political
borders to coincide with ethnic and
cultural
borders and that's that's how the maps
of of uh many East European countries
had been drawn in the 19th and 20th
Century on that on that principle donbas
where the
majority constituted uh by the beginning
of the 20th century were
ukrainians was considered to be
Ukrainian and was claimed in the middle
in in in the middle of this Revolution
and revolutionary Wars and Civil Wars by
uh Ukrainian
government but donbas became a site one
of the key sites in the Russian Empire
of early
industrialization when it's with its
mining industry it's metalogical
industry so what that meant was that
people from other parts of not Ukraine
but other parts of the Russian Empire
congregated there that's that's where
jobs were that's how kusov and his
family came came to donbas the family of
bnv overshoot a little bit they got to
the Industrial Enterprises in in in the
city of uh uh kamin near near nepr the
place the city that was called nepr
Petrov so those were Russian peasants
moving into the area in in uh looking
for for the for the
job and um by the the the the population
became quite mixed ukrainians still
constituted the majority of the
population but not necessarily in the
towns and in the cities and culturally
the place was becoming more and more
Russian as the result of that of that
mement so apart from the Crimea donbas
was the part of Ukraine where the ethnic
Russians were
the the the biggest group they were not
the majority but they were very very big
and significant group for example in the
city of marup that was all but destroyed
in the course of the last of the last
two years um the ethnic Russians
constituted over 40% of the population
right so that's not exactly part of
donbas but that gives you that that
gives you general
idea now the story of donbas uh and what
happened now is is multi-dimensional and
this ethnic composition is just one part
of the story another very important part
of the story is uh uh
economy and
uh dbas is a classical Rust Belt and we
know what happens with the cities that
were part of the first or second wave of
industrialization in the United States
and globally you know about social
problems that exist in those places so
dbas is probably the most dramatic and
tragic case of implosion of the Rust
Belt with the mines not anymore
producing the sort of the uh and at the
acceptable price the coal that they used
to produce is people look losing jobs
with the politicians looking for
subsidies as opposed to trying very
unpopular unpopular measures of uh
dealing something and and bring bringing
new money and new investment into the
region so all of that all of that become
part uh of the story that made made it
easy for uh Russia for the Russian
Federation to destabilize the
situation um we have interviews with is
Mr girkin who is saying that he was the
first who pulled the trigger and and
fired the shot in in that war he became
the Minister of Defense in the in the uh
donet People's Republic you look at the
Prime Minister he is another person with
uh uh Moscow residency
permit
um so you you see key figures in in
those positions at the start and the
beginning not being being Russians from
Ukraine but being being Russians from
Russia and Russians Russians from Moscow
closely connected to the to the
government structure and intelligence
structure and so on so that is that is
the start in the beginning but uh the
the way how how it exploded the way it
did was also a combination of of the
economic and ethnocultural and
linguistic factors so for Putin the war
in donbas and even in 2022 is a
defensive war against what the Ukrainian
government is doing against ethnically
Russian people dbas is that fair to say
how he describes it what what we see
this is certainly this is certainly the
argument right this is certainly the
argument and um a
pretext uh because what uh we see there
is that there would be no and and there
was no independent mobilization in
Crimea either in Crimea or in
donbas without Russian
presence uh without Russian occupation
the fact of the Crimea there would be no
and and there was no before uh
uh at least in the previous 5 to six
years any mass mobilizations of Russians
there was none of such mobilizations in
in donbas before before girin and other
people with mil
military with with um parts of military
units showed up there so it is it is a
it is an excuse you you've been to
Ukraine mhm you know that Russian
language is not uh persecuted in
Ukraine and um if youve not been to
donbas it would be diff or to the Crimea
it would be difficult to find one
single Ukrainian school not that they
didn't exist at all but it would take
quite an effort for you to find it or
sometimes even to hear Ukrainian
language outside either of the
institutions or or the or the uh farmers
market so um that that's that's the
reality that that's the reality that is
clear that is visible so uh imagine
under those conditions and context that
someone is is
persecuting ethnic Russians or Russian
speak
speakers um want to believe in something
like that one important precondition is
never to step step your foot in your
cray
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