Hilang Akal, Tumpul Kepekaan - Endgame Bersama @gwirjawan | Episode #120

Summary

The transcript discusses Indonesia's aspirations to become a G4 country by 2045, emphasizing the need for economic growth through solving global and local issues such as climate change and biodiversity. It highlights the importance of science communication and the role of Indonesian scientists in driving research and policy impact. The speaker calls for a cultural shift in valuing scientific contributions, improving incentives for academics, and leveraging the diaspora's potential to elevate Indonesia's global scientific standing.

Takeaways

• 🌏 Indonesia aspires to be a G4 country by 2045, which requires significant economic growth and capital accumulation.
• 📈 Economic growth is driven by solving relevant problems for the masses, with Indonesia having unique potential in areas like geothermal energy and biodiversity.
• 🌱 Indonesia has over 50% of the world's geothermal reserves and a rich biodiversity, which are scientific and interdisciplinary issues that could be leveraged for economic development.
• 🗣️ There is a need for better science communication in Indonesia to inform policy makers and stakeholders of the importance of scientific research and its impact on society.
• 🏛️ Academic metrics and promotion systems in Indonesia may not sufficiently encourage research that has real-world impact, unlike initiatives like the DORA agreements in the U.S. and UK.
• 🎓 Indonesian students studying abroad have decreased, which could impact the country's competitiveness and scientific development in the long run.
• 🧬 Science and interdisciplinary research in Indonesia need a strong narrative to connect with policy makers and to ensure that research is not just academic but has practical applications.
• 🔬 The lack of visibility and recognition of Indonesian scientists, even among the younger generation, indicates a need for promoting scientific role models.
• 💡 The script emphasizes the importance of scale in education and research, suggesting that the number of Indonesian students abroad could be a factor in the country's future scientific standing.
• 🌐 The potential of science diplomacy and the involvement of overseas researchers in shaping Indonesia's international scientific reputation and policy.
• 🔑 The necessity for Indonesia to improve its scientific infrastructure and facilities to retain and attract researchers, which is crucial for the country's scientific advancement and global competitiveness.

Q & A

What is Indonesia's goal by 2045 in terms of economic status?

Indonesia aims to become a G4 country by 2045, which is measured by GDP among other factors.

How does economic growth relate to solving problems according to the transcript?

Economic growth comes from solving problems, as it requires providing solutions relevant to many people.

What unique resources does Indonesia have that can contribute to solving global problems?

Indonesia has more than 50% of the world's geothermal reserves, a variety of languages, and the second highest biodiversity, which can be used to provide solutions to global problems like climate change and biodiversity.

Why is it important for scientists to communicate their findings effectively to policymakers and stakeholders?

Effective communication is crucial because without a good narrative from scientists, there is no incentive for academics and policymakers to allocate research in relevant directions.

What are some of the challenges faced by Indonesian academics in terms of recognition and incentives?

Indonesian academics face challenges such as a lack of incentives to engage in research that has a direct impact, and a system that previously prioritized metrics like citations and publication counts over actual impact.

How does the transcript suggest improving the recognition and impact of Indonesian research?

The transcript suggests that Indonesia should adopt practices like the DORA agreements, which focus on transferring research output to impact, and reward universities based on their impact.

What role does science communication play in increasing public and legislative interest in scientific issues?

Science communication is essential as it makes the public and legislature interested in scientific issues, which in turn influences policy and funding decisions.

Why is it important for Indonesia to have recognizable scientific figures like Brian Cox or Richard Dawkins in the UK?

Having recognizable scientific figures helps communicate the relevance of science to everyday people and can inspire a new generation of scientists and increase the country's recognition in the scientific community.

What is the significance of the game 'Endgame' mentioned in the transcript?

The game 'Endgame' is considered a potential game changer as it can provide broad and deep inspiration to the wider community by bridging the scientific domain with the public domain effectively.

What is the current state of Indonesian students studying abroad compared to other countries?

The number of Indonesian students studying in the United States has decreased from 16,000 in the 80s to 8,500 now, while countries like Turkey, Korea, India, and China have significantly increased their numbers.

How does the transcript suggest addressing the issue of brain drain and encouraging academics to contribute to Indonesia?

The transcript suggests that Indonesia should focus on allowing academics to grow abroad first, so they can bring back more substantial contributions, and improve the scale and facilities for research within the country.

Outlines

00:00

🌏 Indonesia's Aspirations for Global Leadership

The speaker discusses Indonesia's ambition to become a G4 country by 2045, emphasizing the need for economic growth through problem-solving. They highlight Indonesia's potential in areas like geothermal energy, linguistic diversity, and biodiversity, which could provide solutions to global issues. The importance of interdisciplinary scientific research and effective communication between scientists and policymakers is stressed. The speaker also critiques the current academic promotion metrics, suggesting a shift towards impact-based incentives. They advocate for science communication to engage the public and policymakers, drawing comparisons with figures like Brian Cox and Richard Dawkins in the UK. The potential of a game like 'Endgame' to inspire and bridge scientific and public domains is mentioned.

05:06

📚 The Scale of International Education and Competitiveness

This paragraph delves into the significance of the number of Indonesian students studying abroad, particularly in the United States, and how it has decreased over time compared to other countries. The speaker contrasts this with the growth in international student numbers from countries like China, India, and Korea. They argue that the scale of international education is crucial for Indonesia's competitiveness by 2045. The speaker also addresses the misconception about Indonesian academics abroad, suggesting that they should be allowed to grow in their careers before being expected to contribute to Indonesia. The challenges faced by returning academics, such as administrative burdens and lack of research facilities, are highlighted. The speaker admires China's transformation into a scientific superpower despite initial brain drain issues and suggests that Indonesia can learn from this example.

10:07

🌐 The Role of Indonesian Researchers in Global Diplomacy

The speaker explores the potential role of Indonesian researchers abroad in enhancing the country's diplomatic efforts and scientific influence. They propose that these researchers could help direct international research funds towards Indonesia, thereby boosting its scientific capabilities. The speaker criticizes the lack of a Chief Scientific Officer in Indonesia's foreign policy, which could provide scientific advice on critical issues like climate change and digital diplomacy. They argue that the invisibility of Indonesia in global scientific discussions is a problem that can be addressed by leveraging the expertise of its overseas researchers. The speaker emphasizes the need for Indonesia to improve its diplomatic presence and scientific engagement on the world stage.

Keywords

💡G4 country

A G4 country refers to a member of the G4 nations, which is a proposed grouping of four developing countries that have been seeking permanent seats on the United Nations Security Council. In the context of the video, Indonesia's aspiration to become a G4 country by 2045 is tied to its economic development and global influence, as measured by GDP and other metrics.

💡GDP

Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the total monetary or market value of all finished goods and services made within a country during a specific period. The script mentions GDP as a key metric for measuring a country's economic strength, which is crucial for Indonesia's goal of becoming a G4 country.

💡Economic growth

Economic growth is the increase in the production of goods and services of an economy over a period of time. The video discusses the idea that economic growth is achieved by solving problems relevant to many people, emphasizing the role of addressing global and local issues in accelerating Indonesia's economy.

💡Climate change

Climate change refers to long-term shifts in temperatures and weather patterns, mainly as a result of human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels. The script identifies climate change as one of the world's big problems that Indonesia could potentially help solve, showcasing the country's potential in providing environmental solutions.

💡Geothermal reserves

Geothermal reserves are natural stores of heat beneath the Earth's surface, which can be tapped to generate electricity. The script highlights that Indonesia has more than 50% of the world's geothermal reserves, indicating a significant potential for renewable energy production and a solution to global energy challenges.

💡Biodiversity

Biodiversity is the variety of life on Earth, including the variety within species, between species, and within ecosystems. The video mentions that Indonesia has one of the highest levels of biodiversity in the world, which is important for food and medicine sources, and underscores the country's role in scientific research and conservation.

💡Science communication

Science communication is the exchange of information about science and research between scientists and the public. The script points out that science communication is not widely practiced in Indonesia, which affects public interest and legislative attention to scientific issues, a factor that needs to be addressed for the country to advance.

💡Interdisciplinary

Interdisciplinary refers to work that uses methods, concepts, and insights from multiple academic disciplines to produce enriched outcomes. The video mentions that scientific problems, including those related to Indonesia's potential contributions, are interdisciplinary, requiring a holistic approach to address complex issues.

💡DORA agreements

The San Francisco Declaration on Research Assessment (DORA) is an initiative that aims to improve the ways in which the quality of research is evaluated. The script refers to DORA agreements as a means to shift the focus from mere publication counts to research impact, which is a change that is beginning to be recognized in countries like the U.S. and UK.

💡Brain drain

Brain drain is the emigration of highly trained or intelligent people from a particular country. The video discusses the issue of brain drain in the context of Indonesian students studying abroad, and the challenges faced by those who return to their home country, affecting the nation's scientific and economic development.

💡Soft power

Soft power is the ability to persuade others to do something without force or coercion, often through cultural, social, or intellectual appeal. The script suggests that Indonesia's lack of scientific representation in foreign policy weakens its soft power, indicating the need for a stronger scientific presence in international diplomacy.

Highlights

Indonesia aims to become a G4 country by 2045, measured by GDP and other factors.

Economic growth is driven by solving relevant problems for many people.

Climate change and social issues like human trafficking are among the world's big problems.

Indonesia has unique potential to provide solutions, with over 50% of the world's geothermal reserves.

Indonesia's linguistic diversity can help teach global resolution strategies for ethnic, racial, and religious conflicts.

Indonesia has the second highest biodiversity in the world, crucial for food and medicine.

Science and interdisciplinary scientific problems need good narratives to inform policy makers.

Academic promotion metrics often do not relate to real-world impact.

Citations and publication counts are not enough; research needs to be impactful and widely read.

The U.S. and UK have DORA agreements to shift research output towards impact.

Impact case studies, like Bagus' research on AIDS, can demonstrate the value of research.

Indonesia needs to improve its incentives for academics and policymakers to focus on impactful research.

Science communication in Indonesia is lacking, leading to public and legislative disinterest.

Indonesia needs new scientific figures to be recognized globally, beyond cultural exports.

Indonesian scientists abroad can help anchor research funding to Indonesia.

The scale of Indonesian students studying abroad has decreased, affecting future competitiveness.

Indonesia's policy on scholars studying abroad needs to allow for growth before expecting return.

Indonesia's foreign policy lacks a scientific advisor, impacting its ability to address global issues like climate change.

Indonesia's invisibility on the global stage is a concern that needs to be addressed.

Transcripts

So let's talk about world problems.

Indonesia, for example, wants to become a G4 country by 2045.

G4 is measured by GDP, among other things,

we must have a lot of capital,

and to accelerate the economy we must provide solutions to problems

that are relevant to many people

because economic growth comes from solving problems, among other things.

We can see what are the big problems in the world;

climate change, maybe a few social problems,

human trafficking, etc.,

we can see that there are some problems that only Indonesia has

great potential to provide solutions.

Indonesia has more than 50% of the world's geothermal reserves.

Indonesia has a variety of languages that provide a basis for us

to teach the world how to overcome resolutions between ethnicities, races, religions.

Indonesia has the second or highest biodiversity in the world.

Food, medicine, must come from there.

But these are all scientific problems,

and not just scientific, interdisciplinary scientific,

if there is no good narrative from scientists

to inform policy makers and stakeholders

that this is a very relevant thing and Indonesia should have a key,

there is no incentive for both academics and policy makers

to allocate research concentration in that direction.

Because they are not trained to do that

and because the metrics that are given for academics to get promoted,

it is very...

maybe now there is a change,

but before it was not related to impact, it was related to metrics

that sometimes did not really have an impact.

It's not that I think that citations, publication counts are meaningless.

But there needs to be additional activities so that

they don't just sit in a drawer and no one reads them.

In countries like the U.S. and UK,

there are some DORA agreements

to start transferring the output of research to impact.

We make case study from the impact

on how Bagus' research can cure AIDS

or reduce poverty from what level to what level.

We make an impact case study.

And the university being rewarded in terms of endowment

has a lot to do with its impact.

Now in Indonesia, I see that it still needs to be improved.

Because if by nature,

academics have no incentive to do so,

the incentives from policymakers must be such

that even those who have no interest in doing so

have a reason to do so.

Science communication is still not widely practiced in Indonesia,

so the public is not interested in the issue,

which makes the legislature not interested in the issue.

The UK has Brian Cox and Richard Dawkins;

although they don't necessarily talk about their expertise,

but at least they try to communicate

what the relevance of this is for everyday people.

In Indonesia, I asked a student, even a high school student,

"Who is an Indonesian scientist?" "Habibie," he said.

Mr. Habibie is indeed good.

But when I was asked in high school, I also said, "Habibie".

When my mother was asked, she would say, "Habibie".

So there is a thirst for a new figure

that brings Indonesia to be recognized

not only as a producer of beautiful dances and tempeh,

and that's all good, I miss that too,

but a place where new knowledge is produced.

We have a lot actually.

In the UK there is Dr. Carina Joe,

in Japan there are several scientists involved in solving the world's crucial problems,

she was involved in the team that made the vaccine

and she holds the patent for mass production,

Big V, even for the British government.

The public must know that we have the answers.

This is a change that I think can not only be born from policy

but must be born from the grassroots, so that the public begins to know.

And this is why I think Endgame has the potential

to be significant as a game changer.

You, in my opinion, can provide broad and deep inspiration

to the wider community

because you have played a role in bridging the scientific domain

with the public domain relatively very effectively.

But ultimately, it's a matter of scale.

We had a casual conversation before this,

if I pay attention,

I'm referring to one of them, America,

the number of students from Indonesia in the United States

when I was studying in the 80s, was 16,000,

now it is only 8,500.

And back in the '80s,

those who came from Korea, Turkey, India, it was almost the same as us.

But now Turkey and Korea, are above 100,000,

India has reached 150-200 thousand, China 450 thousand.

Earlier you talked about how we can become one of the G4 members in 2045,

now we can extrapolate,

if those who study STEM, who study Social Sciences

in any place, whether in the UK, Western Europe, in Russia, Japan,

Korea, Taiwan, America, Australia, Singapore,

if the scale is far below the scale carried out by the number one,

number 2, number 3 countries, in 2045,

it is easy to feel where the end is,

not in terms of our existence as a large economy,

but in terms of competitiveness, how we can compete with them.

- There are very few of them. - Yes.

If Indonesian children aged 4 years old, aged 10-30 years old are asked,

"Who is your idol as a scientist?"

if they can name just 5 names,

that's cool, thankfully you are one of them.

- There are more great ones. - I'm just saying.

But I think it requires patience,

you don't want to lose patience,

because if you lose patience,

who will be next to do this mission.

There's a misconception, I think, about Indonesians who study abroad,

Indonesians who have careers abroad as academics,

and then when they're asked by the media, for example,

who are starting to realize their presence there,

they're always asked, "When are you coming home?"

"What is your contribution to Indonesia?"

And this is reflected in the scholarship funding policy.

From 35-40, it's very small

compared to Iran, India, China,

academics who are in the UK, almost all of them,

I can tell because I know all of them, yes almost all of them,

are not Indonesian government scholarship recipients,

because Indonesian government scholarships

require them to return home immediately.

If I had gotten a government scholarship,

I might have become a successful person in another field,

but I certainly wouldn't have become an academic in the UK.

Maybe I have a unicorn.

Okay, but being an academic is a huge time investment,

even getting a PhD doesn't necessarily mean getting a tenure position,

you have to do a post-doc

to prove that you are scientifically independent

and not dependent on the old research group.

And what happens is that once the student gets doctoral status in the UK,

and he has to go home,

if he is a lecturer, he will immediately be shackled with administrative burdens

in Indonesia,

he will be shackled with the lack of research facilities

that were previously enjoyed abroad.

What's the point of a researcher relying on the Large Hadron Collider

when he has to come back here and doesn't get access to it anymore,

maybe he can go to Singapore, okay.

But without research facilities,

I'm a modeling person,

so I need a super-powered computer,

I need the climate as well,

it's rooted in the community, that's the problem.

And I see that China had the same problem a few years ago,

they were struggling with brain drain.

He thought of the millions of people invested abroad,

only hundreds of thousands returned home.

But now, China is a scientific super power country

after North America and Europe,

in terms of any metrics, productivity, journal publications, patents, etc.,

University of Tsinghua

from 2006 (when) I was there,

still below Taiwan, now it is top 10.

So it's a rough return on investment.

I think there is nothing wrong with policy makers

who are willing to invest their money in making smart people

return to Indonesia.

But I think the scale, like you said,

the scale, let them grow first

so that they can bring in several times the investment.

I don't like to talk about morality actually,

because only God knows people's morality,

the nationalism that Indonesian students feel there,

it's not for me to judge.

We are talking about the utility

that they can come back as people who have more selling points,

even they don't have to come back actually

they can make an anchor there

to make the allocation of research funds from the UK, Europe, wherever

not to Chile, not to Mexico, not to China, but to Indonesia.

This necessitates principal investigators from research who understand

the magnitude of Indonesia's future.

So things like this may be what I feel

because Indonesia's diplomacy abroad still needs to be improved.

Let me give you this example,

in the UK, I just found out that for the FCDO of the UK Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

there is a Chief Scientific Officer

who provides scientific advice for foreign policy.

We don't have that.

How are we going to talk about climate change?

What about digital diplomacy, IP, things like that, the metaverse,

there are property issues there.

The blindness to scientific issues in foreign policy

will really make our bargaining power and then our soft power

not as high as we want.

But these researchers who are overseas students can help.

Indonesia is the most invisible country.