Zeke Hernandez on "The Takeout" | June 9, 2024
Summary
TLDRこの動画は、移民問題についての深い洞察を提供しています。司会者は、事実がいかに重要であるかを強調し、移民に関する誤解や固定観念を解き明かそうとしています。ゲストのZeke Hernandezは、自身の移民としての経験と、経済学者としての知識をもとに、移民が社会や経済に与えるポジティブな影響について語ります。特に、移民がイノベーションや投資を促進し、犯罪率が低いことを示すデータを共有します。動画は、移民が社会に与える真の影響についての理解を深め、現行の移民政策への批判的な視点を提供します。
Takeaways
- 📚 「移民についての真実」という本の著者、Zeke Hernandezは、移民が経済に与える影響を研究しているビジネス教授であり、ウルグアイ出身の移民であることが明かされます。
- 🌟 Zeke Hernandezは、アメリカに留学するために22年以上前に来たが、移民研究者になる予定はなかったと述べ、経済繁栄の研究を通じて移民の重要性を認識したと語ります。
- 🔍 移民に対する2つの誤解:「悪人説」と「被害者説」が存在すると指摘され、事実に照らしてどちらも誤っていることが強調されています。
- 🚀 移民は経済、文化、社会的な成功に寄与しており、経済的に見ると「勝ち組」と見なすことができます。
- 🏛️ アメリカの初期移民政策は開放的で、1850年頃までは出身地を問わず誰でも移民ができました。
- 📉 1920年代に移民制限が始まり、特に南欧や東欧からの移民が大幅に減少し、アメリカの経済にも影響を与えたと記載されています。
- 🛑 1965年の移民法改正で、国別の枠組みが廃止され、アジアやラテンアメリカからの現代の移民波が始まりました。
- 🏦 移民はビジネス創設率が高く、投資を誘致し、発明にも貢献していることが強調されています。
- 🚑 移民、特に無証移民の犯罪率は低く、アメリカの安全を高める要因であることが示されています。
- 💰 移民は平均して税金にポジティブな貢献をしており、長期的には経済的にも利益をもたらすとされています。
- 🚨 現在の移民討論の状況は、移民自己だけでなくアメリカの利益にも有害であるとZeke Hernandezは警告しています。
Q & A
Zeke Hernandezはどのような経歴を持っていますか?
-Zeke Hernandezはウルグアイ出身で、ビジネス教授としてWharton Schoolで約11年間勤務しています。彼は経済、特に移民が経済に与える影響を研究しており、アメリカに留学した後、アメリカに滞在しています。
移民が経済に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの見解とは何ですか?
-Zeke Hernandezは、移民が経済にポジティブな影響を与えると主張しています。彼は移民が投資、ジョブ創出、イノベーションに寄与すると述べています。
移民に対する一般的な誤解には何がありますか?
-一般的な誤解としては、移民が職業を奪う、文化を台無しにしたり、犯罪を増加させるとされている「悪者ナラティブ」と、移民が私たちに依存し、高額なコストをもたらす「犠牲者ナラティブ」があります。
移民がアメリカに与える経済的利点には何がありますか?
-移民はアメリカに投資をもたらし、ビジネスを展開し、新しいジョブを作成することができ、経済繁栄に寄与しています。また、移民は発明家として多数の特許を出申請しており、アメリカのイノベーションにも寄与しています。
移民と犯罪の関連性についてのZeke Hernandezの見解は何ですか?
-Zeke Hernandezは、実際には無ocumented移民が犯罪率が最も低いグループであると指摘しています。アメリカ本土の住民よりも、移民の方が犯罪を犯す割合が低いとされています。
移民がアメリカの文化に与える影響についてどう言われていますか?
-移民はアメリカの文化にも貢献しており、食品業界においても新しい食べ物を導入することで、アメリカの食文化を豊かにしています。
アメリカの移民歴史における1924年の移民法とは何ですか?
-1924年の移民法は、アジアからの移民を禁止し、南欧や東欧からの移民を事実上ほぼ禁止する法的制限を設けたものです。これは当時の優生学の思想に基づいており、人種間の差別的な扱いを正当化するものでした。
1965年の移民法改正の意義は何ですか?
-1965年の移民法改正は、1965年以前の人種差別的な国籍クォータ制度を廃止し、移民の数を増加させることができました。これは現代の多様な国籍からの大規模な移民の流れをもたらしました。
現在のアメリカの移民状況について教えてください。
-現在、アメリカには法的に承認されていない移民も多く、彼らは経済に貢献していますが、政治的な問題や法的保護が不十分な状況にあります。
移民がアメリカの経済に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの研究の結論は何ですか?
-Zeke Hernandezの研究によると、移民はアメリカの経済にポジティブな影響を与えており、経済的、文化的、社会的に勝ち組と負け組のゼロサムゲームではなく、ウィンウィンの関係があると結論付けています。
移民と公的な費用の関係についてどう説明されていますか?
-移民は短期的には教育や保健などのコストを増加させる可能性がありますが、長期的には彼らは税金として大きなプラスの貢献をしており、社会保険や医療保険などの制度に対する負担を軽減することができます。
移民法の歴史的な誤りについてどう言われていますか?
-移民法の歴史的な誤りは、1920年代の制限によってアメリカ経済に大きな損害を与えたことが指摘されています。移民の減少により、特許出願の減少や投資の減少が生じ、アメリカの経済的自己利益に悪影響を及ぼしたとされています。
移民がアメリカ社会に与えるポジティブな影響について具体的に例を挙げてください。
-移民はアメリカ社会に多様な文化をもたらし、食文化においても新しい食べ物を紹介しています。例えば、移民によってもたらされた食品は、スーパーマーケットの食品コーナーを豊かにしています。
移民とアメリカの経済成長の関係についてどう説明されていますか?
-移民はアメリカの経済成長に寄与しており、新しいビジネスの創出やジョブ創出、イノベーションの促進など、経済の多面にポジティブな影響を与えています。
移民法改正の重要性についてどう言われていますか?
-移民法改正は、アメリカの経済的自己利益を守るために重要なとされており、現在の移民の「スピード制限」が低いため、より多くの移民を適切な方法で迎えることが求められています。
移民がアメリカの社会に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの結論は何ですか?
-Zeke Hernandezは、移民がアメリカの社会にポジティブな影響を与えており、経済的、文化的、社会的に勝ち組と負け組のゼロサムゲームではなく、アメリカの繁栄に寄与していると結論付けています。
Outlines
📚 移民の真実について学ぶ
この段落では、番組で移民について真実を探求する旨が説明されています。ゲストであるZeke Hernandezは、新しい本「The Truth About Immigration」の著者で、移民が経済に与える影響を研究しているビジネス教授です。彼自身も移民であり、アメリカに留学するために22年以上前に来たと紹介されています。
🌐 移民の誤解を解く
第二段落では、アメリカにおいて移民について一般的に接受されている誤解について触れています。移民を悪者または犠牲者と見なす2つの敘事について説明し、実際の移民は経済的、文化的、社会的にプラスの貢献者であることを強調しています。また、政治的な立場に関係なく移民の経済利益について誤解を抱いていることが指摘されています。
🏛️ アメリカの移民史
第三段落では、アメリカの初期の移民政策とその後の変化について説明しています。当初は開かれた国境政策が続き、しかし1890年代に南欧・東欧からの移民が増加したことで、白人のプロテスタントのエリートに反対されました。ユーゲニクス運動とその影響下で、1924年の移民法改正が移民制限を厳格に行うに至ります。
🔬 移民不足によるアメリカの損失
第四段落では、1920年代の移民制限がアメリカの経済的自己利益に与えた影響について触れています。移民の減少が投資と特許出願の減少につながり、アメリカのイノベーション能力に悪影響を与えたと報告された研究結果について説明しています。また、1965年の移民法改正が現在の多様な移民波につながったと指摘しています。
🚫 移民と法的問題
第五段落では、現在の移民問題とその政治的背景について議論しています。バイデン大統領の移民に関する行政命令とそれに伴う批評、特に移民コミュニティからの反響について触れています。さらに、移民の実態とそれを取り扱うための法的枠組みの間のギャップを指摘しています。
💼 移民の経済的貢献
第六段落では、移民がアメリカの経済に与える影響について詳細に説明しています。移民が起業家として活躍し、投資を誘致し、イノベーションを促進するだけでなく、食の文化的多样性をもたらしていることについて触れています。また、移民が犯罪率の低下に寄与しているというデータも紹介されています。
👮♂️ 移民と犯罪率
第七段落では、移民と犯罪の関連性について詳述しています。移民、特に無ocumented移民の犯罪率が低いという研究結果を紹介し、一般的な誤解と対照的に移民が社会の安全に寄与していることを強調しています。
💼 移民と経済への貢献
第八段落では、移民がアメリカの経済への貢献についてさらに深掘りしています。移民が納税者として寄与し、社会保険や医療保険の財政的負担を軽減する可能性があることが議論されています。また、移民が現地コミュニティの教育コストに寄与する短期間のコストも触れられています。
🏆 移民のポジティブな影響
第九段落では、移民のアメリカへのポジティブな影響についての全体的な見解が示されています。移民法の技術的な側面に焦点を当てることの重要性と、移民がアメリカ社会に与える長期的な利益について語り、移民貢献の認識を深めるために必要な政策の議論が求められていると結びています。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡移民
💡経済繁栄
💡移民政策
💡移民の誤解
💡経済学者
💡移民の経済的貢献
💡移民と犯罪
💡移民と税金
💡移民と教育
💡移民の受け入れ
Highlights
移民对经济的积极影响:Zeke Hernandez教授通过研究揭示了移民对经济增长、创新和就业的积极贡献。
移民的双重误解:社会上普遍存在将移民视为‘恶人’或‘受害者’的误解,而事实是移民对经济和社会都有正面影响。
移民政策的历史变迁:从最初美国的开放边境政策到1924年的移民限制法案,反映了移民政策随社会观念和政治环境的变化。
1924年移民法案对创新的负面影响:研究表明,移民限制导致了专利数量的显著下降,损害了美国的创新能力。
1965年移民法案的变革:废除了基于国别的配额制度,标志着现代大规模移民流动的开始,特别是来自亚洲和拉丁美洲的移民。
移民对专利和创新的贡献:移民不仅自身是重要的发明者,还通过合作提高了本土发明者的生产力。
移民与犯罪率的关系:数据显示,无证移民的犯罪率低于本土出生的美国人,这与普遍观念相反。
移民对公共财政的积极贡献:尽管初期存在成本,但长期来看,移民及其后代对公共财政有显著的正面贡献。
移民对解决社会保障和医疗保险财政问题的潜在帮助:移民可以增加纳税人数量,帮助缓解社会保障和医疗保险的财政压力。
移民对地方经济的影响:移民倾向于在特定地区聚集,吸引投资并创造就业机会,促进当地经济发展。
移民对文化和生活方式的贡献:移民带来了文化多样性,丰富了美国的饮食文化和日常生活。
移民法律的复杂性:Zeke Hernandez解释了非法入境的不同情况,强调了法律技术性与实际影响之间的差异。
移民政策的政治化:讨论了移民问题如何在政治上被利用,以及这如何导致对移民的误解和恐惧。
移民对美国社会长期利益的重要性:强调了移民对美国经济、文化和社会的长期积极影响。
其他国家对移民政策的调整:加拿大等国家正在积极吸引因美国移民政策而流失的人才和企业家。
Zeke Hernandez的个人经历:作为移民学者,分享了他个人从移民到成为教授的旅程,以及他对移民问题的看法。
移民辩论中的绝望与希望:Zeke Hernandez表达了对当前移民辩论的绝望,同时也提出了基于事实和证据的希望。
Transcripts
[Music]
welcome to the very best part of my
broadcast week you know here at the
takeout we love many things we love
nothing more than we love facts facts
provide Clarity they help us understand
and harness ourselves to things that are
reliable
verifiable things that are true there is
a topic raging in this country country
has been raging for decades
immigration immigration has a lot of
assumptions it has a lot of fears it has
a lot
of things that people believe that might
not be true so we're going to dig down
into the facts about immigration facts
that will surprise people on the Right
facts that will surprise people on the
left our guest help us do that Zeke
Hernandez he is the author of a new book
The Truth About immigration you see
where I'm going there the subtitle why
successful societies welcome newcomers
Zeke it's great to have you with us
thanks for joining us thank you so much
for having me introduce yourself to my
audience who is Zeke Hernandez uh I'm a
professor uh of business at the Wharton
School uh I've been there for about 11
years um I study immigration of course
and how it affects the economy uh and
generally how the movement of people
ideas and businesses create economic
prosperity and what is your story as it
relates to America and immigration well
I am an immigrant myself I was born in
the little country of Uruguay for those
who might not know that's wedge between
Brazil and Argentina a tiny little
country about three and a half million
people uh and uh I was born there uh
when I was a young child my father got
transferred to Central America for his
work and so I've been uh a foreigner in
a few different countries always in
Spanish speaking Latin America and I
moved here to the United States uh over
22 years ago to come to college and you
came on a student visa I came on a
student visa with the idea that I would
be here for about four years get a
bachelor's degree and go right back home
my motivation for coming to the US was
that in those years growing up I had
seen a lot of poverty and I was deeply
moved by the poverty I'd seen and so I
thought that I wanted to go back and
make a difference in growing the economy
uh just trying to help people uh of
course that's not exactly the way it
turned out one opportunity led to
another here in the US and um I I had
the opportunity to go to graduate school
and uh really with the motivation of
studying what is it that creates
economic
Prosperity I never intended immigration
per se not at all I always say that I'm
an accidental immigration scholar I
didn't mean to study immigration and I
think that's important to say because
given the conversation we're about to
have somebody could really um sort of
stereotype this and say okay here's
someone who's an immigrant who had
preconceived notions about immigration
and wrote this book to sort of I don't
know self- justify right his life or
something the reality is I had no
intention of studying immigration it
wasn't intellectually something I I was
curious about but as I was in graduate
school trying to understand what is it
that creates uh investment jobs
Innovation the things that really grow
in
economy uh I realize that you can't
separate that from the movement of
people because ultimately it's people
and their movement that create all those
things and so it was just a variable I
couldn't ignore a fact I couldn't get
away from and that led me down now
nearly 20 years of really digging into
the research and surprising first of all
myself because um when I came I came
with the notion that immigration might
be good for immigrants but maybe not so
good for natives that it might be a zero
sum game right in some ways I had many
if somebody gains somebody loses well
yeah capitalism has winners and losers
right so someone's winning someone's
losing and so this is a journey of 20
years in some ways of surprising myself
first realizing oh my goodness it turns
out that there's mostly win-wins
economically speaking uh and also
culturally and socially um and after
presenting this to many audiences for
many years trying to go out and and and
and share the what I had learned through
research I realized there's a big
disconnect between what the average
person knows and what the evidence
really shows and the result is this book
that we're going to talk about if you
could summarize three or four of the
leading misconceptions about immigration
as it is thought about and talked about
in America what would they
be yeah that's a wonderful question I
would say if I started at a very high
level right um we have been told and and
we believe meaning you know the average
person believes one of two narratives
about immigrants the first is what I
call the villain narrative the idea that
immigrants do us damage uh because they
either you know steal our jobs
economically they undermine our culture
they create security and safety problems
because of their criminality that's a
message that certain Poli iCal movements
and parties use very effectively to
their advantage very effectively to
Garner votes not just now but in our
past exactly so it's not not describing
something that's happening now a 100
years ago when it was Southern and
Eastern Europeans that were coming to
this country people really thought that
Italians uh Germans um uh Jews could not
possibly become part of the fabric of
America they've done just fine since
then now Asians and Latin American so
it's a perennial debate but yeah the
villain narrative that's one of them the
other narrative uh and it's interesting
because this is often presented as a
counternarrative is what I call the
victim narrative or the victim story and
this is embodied in the Statue of
Liberty Emma Lazarus holding up the
torch bring me you're tired you're poor
uh your Hudd you know your huddled
masses yearning to be free and it's a
message that's very compassionate but it
paints immigrants as needy Outsiders who
who who need us but it costs us very
much to welcome them right and the
problem with those two narratives is is
not just that the facts prove them both
wrong but uh one doesn't undermine the
other because it could be true that
immigrants are needy Outsiders who cost
us a lot right it could be true that
they're villains uh and then it comes
down to whether you think we should
favor Outsiders or insiders and and you
you know who's going to win that
political rhetorical battle right right
it's going to be the the villain
narrative that tends to win out um so
that's the first major misconception and
and what the facts show is that
immigrants are neither villains nor
victims they are net positive
contributors to everything that makes
for a prosperous economy everything that
makes for a prosperous society that
would be number one yeah
and the left tends to
embrace the victim narrative and the
right tends to embrace the villain if
they politically embrace one or the
other
I think right now that's the case and
interestingly it's a historical anomaly
that that's lining up well along party
lines but it hasn't always been that way
for example uh Many religious people who
tend to be more um more right of Center
in their politics uh really buy into
this victim narrative right because out
of say Christian
Compassion um you know we we want to
help the outsider welcome the poor and
the needy that's a new testament tenant
right um and and so yeah it's not just
left or right but it it seems to be that
way
lately and I don't want to launch into
this uh because we only have a minute
before we go to break I want to
acknowledge Chef Jeff is our host
restaurant thank them for their
Hospitality lunch will soon arrive we're
recording this on June 6th
um is there something about um
Zeke our history of immigration that you
regard as kind of a through line is
something that is a constant even though
the politics
fluctuate I think there's two constants
uh one is America benefits fantastically
from
immigration and and we'll talk about
this more I'm sure after the break but
terms of investment Innovation job
creation but most people seem not to
believe that and so the other threat is
just fear constant fear of the next wave
and that dichotomy is just very strange
right right cuz we have quantifiable
benefits yeah over many many many many
many decades that's right we have a
strong desire to come here people will
go through just about anything to get
here and yet this Fear Factor always
seems to be part of our immigration
shadow the the shadow that we cast as a
country that's right this notion of
anxiety about what's actually going to
happen or what is happening we're going
to pick up on that thread when we come
back segment two the take out coming
your way from Chef Jeffs in just one
second they even had a hierarchy of
breeds of human breeds with
nordics being the best and then
Mediterraneans being kind of the
[Music]
lowest welcome back to the takeout Zeke
Hernandez is our special guest his book
The Truth About immigration briefly Zeke
what is our origin story with
immigration like the first 50 75 years
of America yeah I mean um in the first
several decades exactly that period you
mentioned uh America had what some would
call today open borders right that is
there were no restrictions in fact the
census didn't even keep track of the
origins of people that's why we don't
have very reliable Census records in
terms of country of birth until about
1850 so anybody could come uh the
newcomers were primarily from um Western
Europe so you know England uh obviously
northern Europe Ireland eventually uh
that was the first crop right uh I think
but just to yeah settle on that for a
second folks conceptually practically
America started as an open borders
country well look I'll tell you even
more if you read the the preamble to the
Declaration of Independence one of the
things that the King of England was
accused of and one of the reasons for
separating from England was that he was
not allowing enough immigration into
America so literally one of the reasons
to declare independence was not enough
immigration I think most people also
don't know that exactly take us up to
1924 well uh to get to 1924 which is the
moment when
America uh restricted immigration
severely we have to understand what
happened in 1890 yes okay please and so
up until 1890 most immigrants are from
northern and western Europe then you
start getting Mass arrivals from
Southern and Eastern Europe Italians
Greeks Russians Jews Catholics instead
of
Protestants and the only way to say it
is it's completely freaked out the
establishment um the white Protestant
establishment yeah people just thought
that these immigrants were different
that they couldn't assimilate they their
languages were too different
and between 1890 and 1920 there was a
30-year concerted
campaign driven mostly by Northeastern
Elites um who purported to show that
these immigrants were inferior inferior
economically mentally emotionally they
couldn't handle democracy this coincided
with the Heyday of eugenics and so the
the arguments were racialized oh thank
you of course tristany is here with
lunch thank you very much of course you
guys enjoy okay thank you anything else
great thank you um and there were
commissions formed there were lots of um
investigatory efforts undertaken things
published about this to essentially
verify and establish this truth that's
correct so it had the patina of
scientific proof right the Dillingham
Dillingham Commission in 1907 was the
first one uh the Dillingham commission
wasn't as motivated by Eugenics although
they they did claim to prove that these
immigrants are inferior but really what
what what allowed the movement to have a
lot of legitimacy was between the early
1910s and the 1920s the Eugenics
movement really took off and for my
audience briefly explain what Eugenics
meant Eugenics was the pseudo science of
creating a pure people through genetic
crossbreeding right in the same way that
you come up with a superior strain of
corn or a superior type of
cow right that you breed for certain
purposes you could do that with humans
okay and um and this was a a a widely
accepted science in the early
1900s that became and a lot of fear
about
mixing
races and breeds in other words yeah
yeah and they even had a hierarchy of
breeds of human breeds with
nordics being the best and uh and
Mediterraneans you know alpines kind of
beneath them and Mediterraneans being
kind of the lowest and uh and then there
were kind of these asiatics which were
like as good as animals um anyway so
that was the what led to the
justification 1924 is pivotal because um
imp partly driven by post World War I
fears um the the first the emergency
quotas act in 1921 and then the national
quotas act in 1924 are passed and these
laws establish quotas that ban all
immigrants from Asia and virtually ban
all immigrants from Southern and Eastern
Europe and the way they do that is they
set the quota to be 2% of whatever their
representation in the US population was
all the way back in 1890 by 1890 become
because almost no Southern and Eastern
Europeans had arrived and so that made
it so that immigration from Italy well
the countries I just mentioned dropped
by more than 90% more than 90% right
three three countries for the next four
decades three countries uh uh England
Ireland and Germany accounted for more
than three quarters of all immigrant
immigration into the US and in the
intervening decades after
1924 What happened to let's say one
particular part of America Innovation as
expressed through patents yeah so this
is really important um I think I think
rightly so the National Origins Act gets
cond condemned for its xenophobia and
racism and and and you know rightly so
but where it doesn't get condemned
enough is how much damage it did to
America's own economic self-interest
what you're referring to is there's uh
studies that have come out showing that
in the places that suffered the greatest
declines in Immigration because of these
quotas us-born scientists these are
native scientists um suffered a decline
of over nearly 70% in patenting
permanently right this this is not
foreign born science this is native
scientists who missed out from the new
ideas of collaborating uh from
collaborating with these foreign born
scientists right this is really bad for
Innovation it's really bad for National
Security right a lot of a lot of the
listeners or viewers here have watched
like Oppenheimer right Oppenheimer
popularized this idea of oh my gosh
Germany could have come up with the
nuclear bomb well that was also true for
advances in chemistry and weapons and a
lot of technologies that are important
for national security companies as well
patented a lot less uh because of the
loss of foreign born
scientists then take us to
1965 what changes and why yeah
so um just real quick one more thing it
wasn't just technological losses us-born
workers lost jobs even though people
thought they were protecting native
workers and and places that suffered the
most losses from immigrants due to the
1920s restrictions even to this day
today get fewer investment than they did
100 years ago so these these
restrictions have cast a long negative
economic
shadow um 1965 right so as the cold war
is Raging and as the Civil Rights
Movement is going all of a sudden the US
can't legitimately claim to be a beacon
of
freedom and and rights uh while having
an openly racist IM migration system so
in
1965 uh after some years of effort um
the Johnson Administration passes uh the
Immigration Act of 1965 which undid the
the the quotas by country okay they
raised the sealing on the number of
immigrants allowed uh by a reasonable
amount they about doubled it but the
biggest change was not having quotas by
country and so that led to our Modern
Wave of mass migration this time from
Asia and Latin America right up until
now and and and the The Arc of the story
is that immigrants were about 15% of the
US population and in the early 1900s
they went that went down to less than 5%
by 1970 and now we've gone up to about
15% again about 15% again 15% right now
yeah are foreign born foreign born and
that is inclusive of those who are with
and without documentation that's correct
that's correct and what is unique about
this way
is that we do have a very large
population of undocumented immigrants uh
nearly a quarter of all immigrants in
this country are here without uh uh
authorization without green cards or
visas
yeah and is that an historically large
percentage Yeah undocumented yes very
large uh you know historically sort of
it's at the largest ever the thing is
you have to realize until 1924 we didn't
have um any quotas right and so you
couldn't have undocumented or illegal
immigration because there were no limits
I mean there were some exceptions for
some Asians but broadly speaking there
were no limits so it's only when we
started implementing systems of quotas
that it was possible for people to be
here without authorization and we do
have a large population that is MHM when
we come back we'll talk about things
that are very topical right now like
President Biden's recent executive order
to to quote unquote close down the US
Mexican border Our Guest Zeke Hernandez
our restaurant Chef Jeff's lunch is here
segment three of the takeout in just one
second I think where the popular
narrative diverges from the facts is in
why we have such a large uh problem at
the border
[Music]
welcome back to the takeout Zeke
Hernandez is our special guest his book
The Truth About immigration uh Zeke as
you well know President Biden signed an
executive order this very week it is
being uh criticized heavily in some
quarters of the Immigrant Community yeah
those who Advocate politically on behalf
of undocumented immigrants and IM
immigrants generally
uh it is clearly a political response to
a persistent political problem for the
president driven by a sense of anxiety
about what's happened on the southern
border and the
arrival of many many undocumented
immigrants yeah
uh you write in the book about how the
politics of
immigration can lead
to either policies or law
laws that can do unexpected harm yeah
would you classify this executive action
in that broad
category I would say so um I understand
the political reasons for the president
to do this and I think that it's
understandable that there is indeed
chaos at the border um and the problem
of undocumented immigration is a problem
that needs to be solved I think where
the popular
narrative diverges from the facts is in
why we have such a large uh problem at
the Border in such a large undocumented
population I like to say that um before
we can figure out the best way for
people to come into this country it's
good to be informed about what they
actually do once they're here right
right because it makes a big
difference to set it makes a big
difference if these newcomers are
bringing benefits or not right um if
they're bringing benefits then we should
enact policies to encourage their coming
of course in an orderly manner if
they're harming us like the villain
narrative says and we should have
policies that limit their entry the
problem is these border debates we have
are totally divorced from any sense of
what immigrants actually do and so what
happens is we have had six decades where
the mindset has been let's enforce the
Border ever more and pour more resources
into enforcement okay into border
control into border control right an
analogy I use in the book is uh the
analogy of speed limits okay imagine
that you have a super highway okay and
an interstate highway well if that
highway is the main uh the main
thoroughfare through which we get
Innovation investment all the benefits
of immigration that research documents
and now all of a sudden you put a speed
limit of 20 M an hour on that Highway
what's going to happen right well people
who have to get to work right people who
are running for their lives they're
going to speed they're going to cross a
border without authorization right
because there's a very powerful
incentive because American businesses
really want them and really need them
and so the the the main what I'm trying
to get at is that the main reason we
have a lot of undocumented immigration
is because the immigration speed limit
is too low that is the number of people
we need for economic humanitarian and
family reasons is much higher than the
number of people the system allows just
give you one example 700,000 working age
people die in the US each year this is
working age this is not retirees our
legal system doesn't allow us to replace
them not even that number let alone the
number of new people we need as
businesses grow as uh our demographic
profile becomes older and more and more
people retire so when you get that big
of a mismatch you have these surges at
the border um that happen and so if you
keep enforcing a 25 M hour speed limit
on a highway sure you can keep adding
more cops you can keep giving more
speeding tickets but you're not solving
the problem that the speed limit is too
low and so the problem with these
executive orders is that they're not
changing the speed limit and that's why
we need this you know often referred to
comprehensive immigration reform to
bring up the speed limit what does the
data
tell us about undocumented immigrants
and the costs they impose or the
benefits they create for our
society yeah undocumented
immigrants uh bring all the same
economic benefits that any immigrant
does and that's I know surprising to
many but um you know let's just go
through so I'll throw up kind of a a
quick list of facts out there right um
where immigrants settle investment
follows right so you want investment in
your
community well immigrants bring more
investment in two ways one is they're
80% more likely to start businesses than
natives so those businesses right that's
80% 80% nearly double and those
businesses create jobs not just for
immigrants but for many natives also
when a population when a critical mass
of people from a certain country settles
in a certain place companies from that
country of origin invest there as well a
story that I love to tell is a story of
pooo one of the fastest growing
restaurants in this country restaurant
from Guatemala they're the most popular
fast food chain in Central America and
they're
beloved they invested in the US 20 years
ago because there was a large Central
American population in different parts
of the US and they have kind of settled
and established restaurants in those
communities but they're responsible for
creating over 5,000 jobs and that's a
low estimate and those jobs are not just
for immigrants right why because the
investment so the Immigrant Community
came first investment from Central
America followed and jobs were created
as a result okay well that doesn't that
happens whether an immigrant is here
legally or not right many of the Central
American population is here without
authorization but the investment still
follows right uh Investments bring a lot
of innovation they represent uh sorry
did I say Investments immigrants
immigrants are 16% of all inventors in
the US they account for 36% of all
patents 36% so more than double their
representation some of that is because
they directly are the inventors on
record but about a third of that is
because they make Native inventors more
productive um Native inventors learn
something or see something because of a
collaboration with an immigrant yeah a
simple story that that illustrates that
well there was an Indian doctor in
Mississippi
um who who had um you know done some of
his training in India but some of his
training in Canada then ended up working
here in the United States Dr Hari P Ki
uh Dr kohi started talking with a
colleague who thought he had to amputate
the leg of a patient because the patient
the leg had a wound that wouldn't heal
okay and Dr kohy remembered that in
India he' taken some lessons on
ayurvedic medicine where they talked
about the healing properties of
turmeric so he talks about about this
with his colleague another doctor and
they say well let's try turmeric I mean
all hope is lost anyway we might as well
try something new the patient leg heals
and they ended up doing a clinical trial
and filing the very first patent in the
US on the healing properties of turmeric
now what's interesting is after that
native born us-born scientists patent
all the followon applications of
turmeric for Medical Practice in the
United States so by collaborating with
an Indian doctor new knowledge that then
gets expanded so when you go to your
Supermarket or your Pharmacy and you see
turmeric on the Shelf in the wellness
section the reason you see it there is
because of this collaboration so very
long ago that's right it's not that some
random person found it on Google it
doesn't happen that way the movement of
ideas right happens because people move
right and it's not just um what I call
highbrow this is highbrow stuff right
patents you know Medical
Technologies uh what's making our
interview possible the transistors and
microchips that allow us to transmit
many of the of those Innovations
introduced because of immigrant Talent
that's all highbrow stuff but you
mentioned your supermarket and the
supermarket aisle let's go to another
aisle let's go to the food aisle in that
supermarket and think of all the things
that you buy routinely right your
favorite foods or the foods for special
occasions if you start removing from the
aisles those that were introduced by
immigrants
what's left in your Supermarket little
drab little drab right everything from
pasta to hamburgers to Sushi uh to salsa
salsa sriracha sauce that we all love
it's all gone it's all gone it's all
gone and this is not like immigrants
with phds right this is just groups of
immigrants from different places that
create product Innovations um that
benefit all of us the voice of Zeke
Hernandez segment for the takeout from
Chef Jeffs coming your way in just one
moment
in any group there's going to be some
criminals but actually when you look at
the data the big surprise is that the
group with the lowest rate of
criminality in the US is undocumented
[Music]
immigrants welcome back to the takeout
welcome back to Chef jeffson Our Guest
Zeke Hernandez Zeke
talk to me about crime and immigrants uh
documented or undocumented because that
is the
leading Fear Factor around this debate
yeah yeah I think that um it's it's one
it's one of the Holy Trinity of main
concerns right crime is is one of them
look this is political season you're
100% likely to see an out on TV that
shows the story of an undocumented
immigrant an illegal immigrant
who came here and raped someone or
murdered someone you're 100% likely to
see that and then that gets generalized
into these immigrants are um destroying
our communities and undermining our
safety now that anecdote sure it
happened right like like people in any
group there's going to be some criminals
but actually when you look at the data
the big surprise is that the group with
the lowest rate of criminality in the US
is undocumented immigrants right a
native is twice as likely than an
imigrant more excuse me more than twice
as likely to commit a violent crime four
times as likely to commit a property
crime and nearly three times as likely
to commit a drug crime okay so
undocumented immigrants actually commit
the fewest crimes this is also true uh
for legal immigrants and and nobody
disputes this data no look of all of all
the hot button topics right for some of
them the evidence can be a little mixed
or you have to interpret it carefully
this one is unambiguous when you read
all the comp comp studies it's like
Groundhog Day right it's just the same
conclusion no statisticians or social
scientists or economists who look at
this disagree about this particular fact
no look the debate is is the debate
isn't how much crime immigrants commit
it's how little they commit it's how how
far below how how um how much less than
natives they do that's really what the
statistical debates are about so it just
it just does not happen but I understand
that because it doesn't happen to the
magnitude that our Fear Factor leads us
to believe no if any thing it's the
other way around you want your community
to be safer immigrants are likely to
make it safer right in fact the sad the
sad backstory to that is that the
children of immigrants when they
interact with natives become more prone
to Crime so if anything it's immigrant
children that need to be protected from
Naes from natives yeah so it's the
opposite of what the popular notion is
charges public charges and immigration
yeah okay so that's another of the Holy
Trinity right the second of the Holy
Trinity um look and this one I I I want
to be compassionate in addressing this
in that I I understand in fact my notion
when I moved to the US on a student visa
I um you know I hate to admit this but I
sort of look down on immigrants that
were perhaps not here legally or or that
were not on a student visa not as right
sophisticated as me and I thought oh
they must be public charges but I was
like very proud of like I'm not going to
take from the system um but you know
this is where evidence is important and
it turns out that the headline is that
the average immigrant in the United
States contributes to taxes to the tune
of
$260,000 positive in Net Present Value
terms okay that's accounting for them
and their descendants so that's a wildly
positive contribution to our public
coffers there is a Nuance here though
and this is something that we don't talk
about enough that there are short-term
costs locally of welcoming newcomers so
even though this is expressed with a lot
of cynicism some of what the mayor of
New York or Denver or the the governors
of Texas and Florida are saying that hey
their their states or localities are
bearing a disproportionate share of the
cost of welcoming newcomers in terms the
mayors of Denver Chicago and New York
have said exactly that yeah in terms of
housing Democratic Mayors yeah educating
the the biggest one actually is
educating the children of immigrants cuz
immigrants have more children than
natives that's the biggest cost so that
is true so first generation immigrants
have a small small about $1,600 small
negative uh cost uh uh at the local at
the state level when they arrive but
their children and grandchildren uh
contribute more than double what the
cost is right so in the long run uh
States get a return on that investment
right if you think of like welcoming new
people as an investment a fiscal
investment it just takes time right
right so the debate we need to be having
very legitimately so is what can the
federal government do to offset local
costs in the short run and to make sure
they're more evenly distributed right
but but no doubt about it that in the
long run fiscally speaking we're way
better off let's take two popular
programs um Social Security and Medicare
very popular programs the latest report
from people running these are the people
running these programs is that in less
than a decade they're going to they're
going to run out of money take in
they're going to pay out more than they
take in exactly right so one way to
alleviate that is
to to bring in more taxpayers right and
we're not getting them through birth
rates because we have now below
replacement birth rates so the only
solution to get more
taxpayers is to welcome
immigrants address something I hear
frequently from those on the right which
is their First Act Coming to America was
a
crime they entered illegally what part
of illegal do you not understand that's
a phraseology you hear evaluate that
based on the history and the
data well so this is where we could get
very technical and it could become super
boring because immigration law is
notoriously a
snoozefest um I think if you cross
through a Port of Entry if you come
through a port of entry and you don't
have the right Visa or you don't have a
Visa at all uh which is what's happening
to a big percentage uh right now of
Venezuelans and others who are
coming and and you um and the and the
border patrol allows you in gives you
permission to stay while your case is
adjudicated you are not here illegally
right right so you are not an illegal
immigrant you're here waiting for your
case to be adjudicated right okay and
that's about a third of all Crossings
right now if you cross in between a port
of entry and you you know you you you
come in right and nobody knows and you
don't get captured then you are here
illegally you're here without
authorization but if you cross in
between a port of entry and you get
captured and you're authorized to remain
while your case is adjudicated you're
not here illegally so those are the
technicalities right but I want to
emphasize again that um we're too
obsessed with how people come in and not
what they do once they're here because
the question is you know do we want to
send these people back or not and if
they're bringing us benefits that are
good for us then it's a different
conversation than if they're not I I
think that that's more than the legal
technicalities we have to start with are
we better off with these people the
answer is an Ambiguously yes
unambiguously yes yes I mean I know
that's controversial I know some people
listening to me will say wait but they
broke the law and I agree and I agree
that it's not good to break the law so
I'm not advocating for illegal
immigration I'm not advocating for for
uh people that that commit crimes right
but we can't say that because they
committed that crime they're therefore
more likely to commit murder or rape no
we already know it's the opposite um the
other thing is I think we have to be
honest with ourselves if the reason
these people are able to stay did you
know the average undocumented immigrant
has been here for over a decade I did
know that yes okay and and a quarter of
them for more than decades most of them
have jobs pay taxes have children and so
um they're doing all the things that we
would want them to do it's unrealistic
at this point to send 13 million people
back so we just have to face reality and
solve that issue the voice of Zeke
Hernandez our special guest our thanks
to Chef Jeffs stay tuned for your
takeout out out take AAL that's coming
your way
next I'm a huge bobi fan I was 7 years
old I heard Slippery When Wet on the
radio fell in love
[Music]
welcome to your takeout out take a
special where we lighten it up just a
little bit zek herandez our special
guest his book The Truth About
immigration subtitle why successful
society's welcome newcomers Zeke we have
three questions we ask everyone on this
show okay take them with whichever order
you prefer take as much time as you need
uh most influential book in your life
and why all-time favorite movie and if
you're going to thoroughly enjoy some
music on a long flight or a long drive
what artist or genre is that most likely
to be
okay uh so I I'll go I'll take him in
reverse order I'm a huge Bon joobi fan I
was 7 years old I heard Slippery When
Wet on the radio fell in love and you
know bonji actually this year 40 years
uh so yeah bun Joi is is usually my
go-to uh favorite
movie I'll kind of reveal my My
Generation here I you know Forest Gump I
go back to Forest Gump a lot it's just a
movie that like moves me makes me laugh
I come back to that one a lot uh love
that show most influential
book um look I could I could I could lie
here here but I'm going to I'm going to
say what what the one that really is so
so I'm a Christian uh I'm religious uh
I'm a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of latterday saints um The Book
of Mormon is uh the book that has
changed me the most it has helped me
come closest to Christ um and and has
helped me along with the Bible
understand my duties as a chrisan and
and the love that God has for us the
most so I I have to say honestly that's
the one that has changed me the most
excellent answers all in the last minute
or so we have do you despair in your
heart about the tenor of the immigration
debate
currently yeah I mean yeah despair is a
good word
um but I despair in part because this is
so damaging to immigrants but actually
even more so because this is so damaging
to us and to our own self-interest when
you look at the evidence it's so clear
that this doesn't have to be partis in
this doesn't have to be scary if you
look at the cover of my book it's
colorful and positive because the
evidence tells us that look there is a
both a conservative and a liberal case
for immigration that are very aligned
and so it hurts me that we don't see
that we hurt ourselves that's that's why
I Despair and other countries right now
are trying to take advantage of our
constricted orientation to immigration
are they not absolutely I mean Canada is
every single day Canada explicitly has
policies targeting immigrants saying hey
you're having trouble with the US system
come here and they're succeeding right
my colleague BR Glennon and and um uh
and Ronnie Ronnie Lee wrote a paper
showing that the US has poached a ton of
high-tech entrepreneurs from the US just
because of thefunction of our policy
Canada but it's also happening with
International students I'm an educator I
work at a university increasingly
foreign students the world's best and
brightest are telling us they don't want
to come study in America
because the political uncertainty is so
high that they're not sure if they're
going to be able to stay so they'd
rather go to Germany the UK Canada
Australia uh now I'm not one to think in
zero some terms I don't think we need
all the world's best and brightest but
we're certainly shooting ourselves in
the foot when the best and brightest are
telling us that Zeke Hernandez our
special guest it's been a pleasure thank
you sir thank you it's been an honor
we'll see you next week folks
[Music]
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