Building A Second Brain - Scott Young and Tiago Forte
Summary
TLDRThiago Forte分享了他的新书《构建第二大脑》的核心理念,讨论了如何通过智能笔记和信息组织来提升思考和创造力。他强调了从信息稀缺到信息过剩的转变,以及如何通过提炼关键信息来构建有效的知识系统。Forte还介绍了他的CODE方法,帮助人们在创意过程中捕捉、组织、提炼和表达思想。此外,他还讨论了如何通过PERA系统将笔记转化为可操作的行动,以及他父亲作为艺术家对他创作过程的影响。
Takeaways
- 🧠 构建第二大脑的核心理念是帮助人们更智能地记笔记,组织生活中的信息,并以此提升思考能力。
- 📚 Thiago Forte的书籍《Building a Second Brain》强调了有效笔记和信息组织在学习和个人成长中的重要性。
- 🌐 在信息极度丰富的今天,我们面临着从信息稀缺到信息过剩的挑战,需要新的策略来管理知识。
- 🔄 笔记的过程应从记忆扩展(Remember)、连接(Connect)到创造(Create)三个阶段逐步发展。
- 📈 通过PERA系统(Projects, Areas, Resources, Archives)来组织笔记,确保信息在需要时能够被轻松检索。
- 🚀 创造性工作不仅仅是关于灵感和天赋,还需要系统性和方法论来实现想法的具体化。
- 📝 记笔记不仅是为了扩展记忆,更是一个思考和理解自己想法的工具。
- 🛠️ 使用数字工具来构建第二大脑,可以更好地适应现代工作环境和提高效率。
- 🔗 通过建立信息之间的链接,可以发现意想不到的洞见和创意。
- 🎯 完成创造性项目是现代知识工作中最重要的进步单位,需要有意识地推动项目完成。
- 👨🎨 Thiago的父亲作为艺术家,展示了即使是创意工作也需要有条理和系统性的方法来实现成功。
Q & A
什么是构建第二大脑的核心理念?
-构建第二大脑的核心理念是将个人笔记和信息组织成一个系统化的知识库,以帮助人们更好地整理生活中的信息,提高思考和创造力。
为什么作者认为大多数人不擅长记笔记?
-作者认为大多数人不擅长记笔记是因为他们缺乏系统性的方法来回顾和整理笔记,导致信息收集变得无效,无法在需要时找到和应用相关知识。
CODE框架是什么,它如何帮助创造性过程?
-CODE框架是作者提出的一个创造性过程框架,代表捕获(Capture)、组织(Organize)、提炼(Distill)和表达(Express)。它通过标准化创造性工作流程,帮助人们更有效地管理信息和创意。
作者如何使用数字化工具来构建自己的第二大脑?
-作者推荐全面采用数字化工具来构建第二大脑,并通过建立一个名为'第二大脑资源指南'的在线资源,持续更新和推荐各种笔记应用、网页剪辑器、音频或视频转录应用等工具。
PERA系统是什么,它如何帮助组织笔记?
-PERA系统是一种组织笔记的方法,代表项目(Projects)、领域(Areas)、资源(Resources)和档案(Archives)。它通过将信息分类并按优先级排序,帮助人们将笔记变得可操作,确保在正确的时间遇到正确的信息。
作者如何将记笔记与思考结合起来?
-作者认为记笔记不仅仅是为了扩展记忆,更是一个思考的工具。通过将笔记放在一起,人们可以发现它们之间不曾注意到的关系,从而促进创新思维和理论的形成。
作者的父亲如何影响他对创造性工作的看法?
-作者的父亲是一位艺术家,他展示了即使是创造性工作也需要系统性和结构性。这种认识使作者意识到,要想在创意领域取得成功,不仅需要才华和想法,还需要有条不紊的工作流程。
作者如何看待数字工具与纸质工具在记笔记方面的比较?
-作者认为,尽管一些原则可以应用于纸质笔记,但他认为我们已经到了一个转折点,即我们的设备无处不在,软件足够强大、易用,且连接性几乎普遍,因此他推荐全面采用数字化工具。
在构建第二大脑的过程中,作者如何处理信息的过载问题?
-作者通过区分可操作信息和非可操作信息来处理信息过载问题。他强调了从信息稀缺心态转向信息丰富环境下的心态转变,并鼓励人们专注于提取信息中的'信号',即主要观点和核心要点。
作者在书中提到的'记忆扩展'阶段是指什么?
-'记忆扩展'阶段是指通过外部存储系统(如笔记应用)来卸载那些不需要记忆的信息,从而为思考、想象和创造提供空间。这是构建第二大脑的初级阶段,目的是释放大脑带宽,以便进行更深层次的思考。
作者如何描述他在写作书籍时的过程?
-作者描述了他的写作过程是将大型项目分解为多个小项目,每个项目都有其自己的目标、约束和里程碑。他通过识别可以管理的最小任务来逐步推进每个项目,并在完成一个阶段后触发下一个阶段。
Outlines
📚 与 Thiago Forte 探讨构建第二大脑
本段落介绍了与 Thiago Forte 的对话,他写了一本关于如何高效记笔记和组织信息的书《Building a Second Brain》。对话中讨论了记笔记的挑战、信息过载问题以及如何通过系统化方法改进记笔记的过程。Thiago 分享了他个人的经历,以及他如何通过创建一个框架来解决信息组织的问题。
🧠 构建第二大脑的理念与重要性
在这一段中,Thiago 解释了构建第二大脑的概念,即创建一个外部知识库来帮助我们更好地处理和回顾信息。他强调了在信息丰富的环境中,我们传统的信息稀缺心态已经过时,需要新的策略来处理大量的信息。他还讨论了通过减少笔记数量并专注于核心要点来提高效率的重要性。
📈 Thiago Forte 的 CODE 系统
Thiago Forte 介绍了他的创意过程框架——CODE系统,这个系统包括捕获(Capture)、组织(Organize)、蒸馏(Distill)和表达(Express)四个阶段。CODE系统旨在帮助人们更有效地管理创意项目,确保在适当的时间进行适当的工作。
📖 写作过程中的笔记系统应用
在这一段中,讨论了 Thiago 在写作《Building a Second Brain》一书过程中如何应用他的笔记系统。他解释了如何将大型项目分解为更小的部分,并通过系统化的方法逐步完成。他还提到了如何利用自己的建议来克服创作障碍,并分享了关于如何将笔记转化为实际行动的见解。
🤔 笔记作为思考工具
Thiago 讨论了笔记不仅仅是记忆的扩展,还是思考和创造的工具。他提出了三个阶段:记忆、连接和创造,强调了通过外部化想法来释放认知带宽,从而促进创新思维。他还提到了笔记之间的关系如何帮助我们发现新的想法和联系。
🔗 与其他生产力系统的比较
在这一段中,Thiago 讨论了他的第二大脑方法与 David Allen 的 Getting Things Done (GTD) 系统和 Zettelkasten 系统的关系。他强调了第二大脑方法的重点是将非行动性信息(如笔记、引用、研究等)转化为可操作的行动。他还提到了数字化工具在这一过程中的重要性。
🛠️ 选择笔记工具的建议
Thiago 提供了关于如何选择和使用笔记工具的建议。他强调了找到适合个人风格的工具的重要性,并介绍了他的第二大脑资源指南,这是一个免费的公共资源,用于帮助人们根据自己的需求选择和更新笔记工具。
🎨 艺术家父亲的启示
Thiago 分享了他的艺术家父亲如何影响他对创意工作的看法。他强调了系统性和结构性在创作过程中的重要性,以及这如何帮助他的父亲保持高产并成功地将艺术转化为生活。他还讨论了这种系统化的方法如何适用于所有知识工作者,以帮助他们完成创意项目。
🙏 结语与感谢
在最后一段中,Thiago 感谢 Scott 提供的交流机会,并强调了记笔记对于个人成长和学习的重要性。他鼓励听众访问 buildingasecondbrain.com 来获取更多资源,并对他的书《Building a Second Brain》表示感谢。
Mindmap
Keywords
💡第二大脑
💡智能笔记
💡信息过载
💡创造性过程
💡知识工作
💡行动情境
💡数字化工具
💡信息稀缺与信息过剩
💡信号与噪声
💡个人成长
Highlights
Thiago Forte分享了关于如何构建第二大脑的理念,这是一个关于如何有效整理信息和提高思考效率的系统。
作者通过个人经验强调了很多人在记笔记和信息整理方面存在的挑战,尤其是面对大量信息时如何有效处理。
Thiago Forte提出了CODE框架,用于优化创作过程,包括捕获、组织、提炼和表达四个阶段。
在信息过载的时代,我们需要从信息稀缺的心态转变为面对信息丰富的环境,学会筛选和提炼关键信息。
Thiago Forte通过自己的书籍创作过程,展示了如何将第二大脑的概念应用于实际项目中。
作者讨论了将任务分解为小块的重要性,以及如何识别和处理实际上是项目而非单一任务的待办事项。
Thiago Forte强调了在创作过程中,习惯和冲刺的结合使用,以及如何在面对机会时迅速行动。
笔记不仅是记忆的扩展,还是思考和发现新联系的工具,有助于更深入地理解主题。
通过构建第二大脑,人们可以经历记忆、连接和创造三个阶段,从而提高创造力和生产力。
Thiago Forte解释了PERA系统,这是一种组织笔记的方法,可以帮助人们根据行动情境整理信息。
作者分享了个人故事,说明了即使是艺术家也需要系统性和结构化的方法来实现创造力和产出。
Thiago Forte推荐了buildingasecondbrain.com网站,作为获取有关第二大脑方法和资源的中心枢纽。
Scott H. Young建议听众检查Thiago Forte的书籍,认为这对于个人成长和学习是一个重要的补充。
Thiago Forte强调了数字工具在构建第二大脑中的重要性,并推荐了适合数字时代的工具和应用程序。
作者讨论了如何在创作书籍时面对挑战,并使用自己的建议来克服这些挑战。
Thiago Forte提到了他的书籍中提供的资源指南,帮助读者找到适合他们的笔记工具和应用程序。
Transcripts
well i'm really excited today to be
talking to thiago forte because he has
written a very interesting book building
a second brain which is all about how do
you take smart notes how do you organize
all the information in your life how do
you think better with that and i think
this is a very useful topic this is a
conversation i've really wanted to have
because my audience often asked me you
know like how should i take notes and i
should do that but i don't really see
myself as much of an expert on that i
feel like i struggle often with
note-taking tools and systems so i'm
very happy to be having this
conversation even for my own selfish
benefit with thiago right now so maybe
you can just kick things off just tell
us what what is the idea behind building
a second brain and why do you think it's
important for people
yeah absolutely i'm super happy to be
here scott
i've watched your your uh your
trajectory over the past few years and
we actually share a
a publisher who was a
she published you when she was at her
previous you know company um but i
remember calling you for a reference and
you've been a guy
thank you
yeah so i was really on the ground floor
of of this book here because uh we both
worked with stephanie yeah
yeah
yeah there's definitely all sorts of
connections between our work i mean yeah
the one you mentioned i for years had
the same question you know you you take
as a as a professional learner you know
a lifelong learner someone who loves
reading books and taking classes and
listening to podcasts and all that stuff
i always noticed you know the teacher
the instructor the expert always always
says these little lines like oh take
note of that
oh write this down
oh note this down and reflect on it
later or keep a list or collect this
kind of information and every time they
would say that my ears would perk up and
i would just say i would just think say
what
like that's the part i need help with
that taking of notes and revisiting
those notes in a systematic way
was just this
this big hole in my in my process to
learning anything
and i never found a satisfactory
solution that's why i had to create one
it's kind of just this assumption that
people know how to take notes and i
think largely we don't
yeah
well i'll talk from my own experience
then so i have not in the past been the
best note taker like i mean i've been
reasonably good when it's like a class
and there's an exam at the end and you
know so you know you have some sort of
constraint okay i gotta write what was
covered in the lecture and review it and
that kind of thing but i mean and i
think this is really what your book
shines for is that in real life there's
no exam right you're just potentially
any information could apply any other
point in time in the future and if
you're like me you consume a lot of
information you're reading all sorts of
interesting stuff i mean we're both
writers so the the kind of potential
connections of where this might be
useful is is never super super organized
you know you're always looking for those
so that's an interesting story or that's
an interesting idea and you're linking
it together and so i'll give you my
process so what i would typically do is
i'd be like you know what i need to be
more organized about this so i'm going
to start taking notes and i'll get like
evernote and i'll get the browser
plug-in and i'll just start clipping
things clip clip clip clip clip and then
all of a sudden i have a bajillion
things stored in my evernote and it's
just i i'm actually scared to look at it
like i don't want to open it because
there's just too much stuff and then i
realized wait a minute i'm not i'm not
looking at these notes ever again i've
just been clipping things and sending
them to the void so you talk about this
in the book and so i really want you
know your expert opinion here what am i
doing wrong and for anyone else who can
relate to my experience where you've
tried to do note-taking and it's just
been sending things into the void what
are we doing wrong and how can we do it
better
yeah you know
i actually wouldn't say that that's
necessarily wrong i would just say it's
a phase
you know it's a phase that i think is
actually helpful to go through
we i think the the basic kind of problem
is for all of human history we lived in
an environment of information scarcity
so all of our mindsets and habits and
our approaches are designed for scarcity
right like you hear a negative insight
oh i gotta i gotta keep that because
it's gonna go up in smoke
but suddenly just in the past like point
zero zero zero one percent of human
history we've switched all of a sudden
to an environment environment of total
abundance hyper abundance right and so
all of those instincts are are incorrect
and actually lead us you know astray
um and so i'd say it's good even to go
through i call it the hoarding phase
right go through go through a hoarding
phase go through a phase where you're
keeping every single quote you come
across go through a phase where you're
you know web clipping every website that
might be useful
but then when you reach that point that
you mentioned that you've reached right
where you you you go to the other side
of the coin your future self goes back
to all this stuff you've collected and
realizes
what i think is the important
realization to have which is that when
you collect everything you might as well
collect nothing
right when you try to save all the
knowledge you end up not having any
knowledge that's accessible if you save
everything you end up just creating a
huge amount of work for your future self
to organize distill review boil down
that to its essence
so what i encourage people to think of
is think about like the signal in the
noise
there's always this comes from like
information theory right there's always
noise the noise of the internet the
noise of social media the noise of even
reading a book there's a lot of filler
what is the the signal
how can you distill and extract just the
main point the main take away the main
nugget from all that noise and often
what that leads to that whole cycle of
realization is taking far fewer notes in
the first place
so you come up with this system uh and
and you call it uh i don't know whether
i should say code or c-o-d-e i don't
know what you've been using in your head
to remember code code code um and so
tell us a little bit about this because
i think this kind of captures uh in a
nutshell the four phases that you talk
about in in taking proper notes and and
this sort of links to what we were just
talking about that you know you can get
very focused on the collecting but maybe
not so much on the distilling or the
expressing so maybe in your own words
can tell me a little bit about uh code
and and how it's helped other people
take better notes
yeah you know code is really my
framework for the creative process
and it's it's funny and almost
embarrassing how long it took me to
arrive at that right like the simplest
frameworks are the ones that take you
the longest to find
and i remember when like i was i was
sketching you know on my notepad here
the different steps that i kept
observing in my students i was like is
it collect no it's more like capturing
and then oh it's organizing and then i
was like is it refining or reviewing no
i think it's distilling and before i
even knew what i was doing code jumped
out at me
it was it was literally cod and i was
like wow
this has just kind of emerged from you
know a decade of experience
um and what i'm really trying to do is
just standardize the creative process
and for some people that sounds you know
kind of sacrilegious it sounds offensive
it sounds like i'm you know
oversimplifying creativity and i am
but i found for myself i just can't sit
down every day
at a blank anything a blank desk a blank
screen a blank canvas and just
invent how i'm going to approach my work
that day i need a process i need a
system
and what code does is it gives me steps
right i can basically look at any
project i'm working on and i can ask is
it time to capture more information
related to this project
right sometimes you just you just don't
have enough to work with you don't have
enough raw material you just need more
info is it time to organize the info i
already have
right once i have five 10 20 notes it's
pretty clear i have something i need to
organize it is it time to distill
the information that i've organized boil
it down to the main takeaways or have i
done all this preliminary steps and is
it time to just express myself is it
time to just express my own point of
view gives me like a checklist to run
through every time i sit down to work
well so so this brings me to my next
question because you know i've done some
interviews and and one of the ones that
the questions that i would sometimes get
which i you know i wasn't always a huge
fan of which is the sort of like the how
did you write this book uh question
because it sort of implies there's maybe
not that much to say about the content
of the book you get too much into the
how did you write the book
but i think it's worth asking in your
case because your book is about
organizing and researching for the
creative process and having gone through
that journey myself
i was very aware of this kind of
finished product of like oh yeah there
was a lot of little pieces that were
assembled like thiago did a good job of
like pulling together
you know some stories some signs some
things like this i know that there was
the 90 below the iceberg basically of
the thinking for what actually
manifested in the book here so tell me a
little bit about your process um of how
you went about writing the book and in
particular how did your note-taking
system
fit into the research and development to
like what we see today if you're if you
have a copy of the book if you're
reading it what is it what is it going
through
yeah yeah this is this is essential
right i should write a post on sometime
it'll be the most meta thing ever you
know how i use my brain to write a book
about second france and then you can
write an article about how you wrote
that article there you go
infinite infinite infinite regress yeah
i have my whole content pipeline planned
out for years in advance
yeah you know um there's so many
principles i used in fact it was it was
almost funny at some points i would get
stuck
you know like you do when you take on
any big creative project and then as i'm
looking at my notes and my content i
would be like oh wait what if i used my
own advice
maybe maybe that would work
yeah um and so let's see a few things
that come to mind um one is chunking
i mean chunking was so important i think
and this is something i talk about in
the book people really
underestimate how much
what they think is a single task
is really a project
right
i see people all the time you know i
love to look over their shoulders at
their to-do list people will write
things you know people will put will put
on their to-do list like write the
manuscript for my book
like on their to-do list as if they're
just going to sit down in 15 minutes
just do that right
um even something like you know buying
new headphones i don't know about you
but for me buying new headphones is like
a research project right like
i have to research all these things and
so what i invite people to do is look at
your to-do list if there's anything that
is stuck that you just can't seem to get
started you can't seem to make progress
on it's very likely that thing is not a
task it's a project
and once you realize it's a project you
have to step back and create some
structure
right you have to do what's what's
sometimes called meta work
right you have to think about okay what
are the steps what is the goal i'm
trying to achieve what are the
constraints what are some milestones i'm
going to reach along the way
and i think sometimes people are
embarrassed to do that for just one of
their personal projects it feels like
over overdoing it
and i don't think so so like for writing
my book
you might think that's a project
it's not it's actually like 20 to 30
separate projects
right you know this yeah right all the
little pieces you know in the beginning
the whole project was just fine and
agent
that was a whole thing within itself
conversations to have referrals to get
interviews to do
requirements to write down all these
things once that little tiny mini
project was done it was find an editor
just to work with me on the proposal
right and again that was a two three
month long project all these little
details to track and so step by step i
really just asked myself what is the
tiniest chunk i can bite off
that is manageable and not overwhelming
that i can
have some sort of win or reach some sort
of milestone that is then the trigger
for the next stage
um and at this point with the book
coming out you know in about a month
i've probably done like i said 15 or 20
separate projects and i still have five
or ten left
um yeah yeah
oh yeah i can tell you for for
for sure that the person who thinks the
book is done once they finish writing it
it's uh it goes on it goes on um
no that's great and i mean i think there
is an there's an idea i i don't want to
read too much into you so you can tell
me whether i'm i'm reading between the
lines incorrectly here but
but you see in a lot of the kind of
space of advice that we sit in i kind of
you know just do it don't do any
planning don't do any preparation you
know take action you know quit thinking
about it there is a kind of reflexive
um
gut instinct that if you know if you're
if you're sitting around making notes or
doing things like this you're doing
something wrong and i i kind of reject
that advice in part because of the very
reason you just talked about that when
you put
right book on your to-do list
there's no task there that's not
actually a task that is a million tasks
and it's it's the very complexity that
we deal with when we're doing difficult
things that often is what overwhelms us
and i also think this is something you
know also worth stating that a project
like you're talking about writing a book
has many many sort of moving parts let's
let's put it that way that
you know i'm a big fan of james clear he
wrote that for from my my book and and i
really like habits and doing all that
kind of thing but i also know that in in
sort of the wake of that a lot of people
kind of got the idea that just doing
something 15 minutes a day and it's the
exact same thing was how you complicate
how you do complicated work and i think
you know what you just said about well
actually writing a book is like 30
projects and each of those projects is
like 30 tasks and each of them you know
a lot of them maybe are only done once
like getting the agent is done once
that's not something you do 15 minutes
every day that's a one-time thing and so
i wanted to talk to you about this
because i think we are really in sync on
this level of what a lot of our work in
learning and note-taking and organizing
is about is how do you tackle really
complicated projects that don't have a
just a simple you just show up every day
you have to deal with the fact that
there's tons of information out there
there's lots of people you have to
contact there's many little individual
steps what do you think about that i i'm
sort of putting a lot on you there but
i'm sure you have some opinions having
seen this kind of advice floating around
no completely completely i'm also a huge
fan of james he's helped me a lot too on
my on my book writing journey but i
think it's like that quote the opposite
of every great truth is also a great
truth
you heard that yeah yeah yeah it's like
truths are not these single point
absolutes
usually when someone says a truth it is
on a spectrum
and both of the ends of the spectrum of
that spectrum are true or have value but
also points in between so i think you
know let's take habits for example
habits are i mean of course insanely
important insanely valuable crucial to
your health your finances your
relationships all these things but not
everything is a habit
by a long shot right yeah i kind of
compare it to marathons versus sprints
some things are marathons it's all about
staying in the race consistent progress
right like your your absolute speed at
any given point in the marathon is not
so important as long as you're moving
forward as long as you don't collapse on
the side of the road you're running the
marathon
but sprints are the sprints are really
what i'm interested in
like when i look back on my life yes
habits were important but there were
these moments in my career in my
business where there was an opportunity
right there was a window of opportunity
something arose and i had to generate i
had to sprint i had to generate a
tremendous amount of momentum in a short
amount of time to take advantage of that
opportunity
and that wasn't a matter of habits it
wasn't a matter of routines it was a
matter of
of having it was a matter of having the
research in place
even before i knew how i was going to
use it yeah right so like that's what a
second brain is it is i'm a writer too
that's my main creative medium i'm
constantly doing research by the time i
decide to start writing something it's
way too late to do research right
like if i'm going to write an article on
on x topic i can't start reading books
on that topic or else it's going to take
weeks and months so in a weird way i
have to always be doing research and
saving little nuggets in my second brain
so when that opportunity presents itself
i've already done all the research all i
have to do is pull it together so i'd
say it's kind of like marathons versus
sprints you really need both
so one idea and this is also something
related to it is a lot of people think
about notes in terms of expanding their
memory so this is something that like
you know you have your internal memory
and you have your external memory and
you use that to go locate things that
you can't remember but one of the ideas
that you bring up which i think is true
i notice in my own work is that notes
are also a tool for thinking
that it's the having notes next to each
other that you notice relationships that
you couldn't necessarily notice in your
head and i mean i think both of us would
probably agree that you kind of only
figure out what you think about
something until you've written a lot
about it like it's just through the act
of writing of sort of permuting through
all the possible ideas that you're going
through you're like oh no no this is
actually what i think about this i
couldn't just figure that out in my head
so tell me a little bit about how you
use note taking not just to save things
but also to think about things
yeah i think memory extending your
memory is like the first stage
it's like the gateway it's the stepping
stone
um and actually in the book i have kind
of these three stages that i see people
move through in kind of the maturity of
their second brain
uh remember connect and create
so remember has to come first because
until you free up some space
right that has to be the first step i
don't know about you i don't exactly
have like tons of just free bandwidth
laying around like my bandwidth tends to
be filled more or less
and so it's kind of like it's kind of
like when you're going to reorganize
your house you have to like move some
things out first move them into the
living room or into the garage or into
outside or to the storage space you have
to create some space to work in
uh and so that's why you know i describe
a second brain in the first place as an
extension of your memory just offload
get the
20 or 30 or 40 or 50
of stuff that is
it's just you have to remember just
memorize doesn't really add value it's
just kind of sitting there and offloaded
into an external storage system
but then as you alluded to once you do
that
things start to happen right it's kind
of like that saying more is different
but in this case it's less is different
less is different when you free up that
bandwidth suddenly you have some room to
think
right you have some space to wonder and
to wander and to
ideate and when you look at these
externalized ideas
you know the stuff that you've just
offloaded from your your own mind you
move into the second phase which is
connect and you start to draw
little connections oh this is related to
this you know i'm doing some gardening
and having some insights about gardening
that also apply to how to you know
use organic marketing for my business
like these really unorthodox unexpected
connections
um and once you've had some of those and
you can literally create those
connections like links in between your
notes
you move to the third phase which is
create
you know once you have a critical mass
of connections between ideas and they
exist in an external place i find people
almost can't help but want to create
theories or create stories or create
presentations or pieces of writing or
new products or side gigs there's
there's this fundamental human
creative nature that i think we have
even among people who insist that
they're not creative or their work is
not creative etc which i don't believe
and i disagree with um that creativity
just rises to the surface once you have
all these building blocks you know in
front of you
so i want to uh nerd out a little bit
here with you i
i know i think you have david allen he
has a little blurb on the top of your
book so i know you have some you know
personal relationship with with getting
things done if if the people listening
to me right now i've never heard of
david allen's getting things done then
they should definitely also read that
book that is like
the classic book that i think all of us
productivity writers go through at some
point where you're like oh wow this
person really has got a system and so i
know getting things done has obviously
had some influence on your work and i
know also it's a little bit less
well-known but definitely in the
note-taking community it's not unknown
are zettle casting systems and they also
have a similar role so i wanted to talk
to you a little bit because obviously
your approach kind of draws on sort of
these two let's call them traditions
uh what do you think are sort of the the
overlap the the differences between how
you think about it how they think about
it i mean i'm not here to cause internet
science fights between you and other
people but just to sort of reflect on
where you see your approach and your
philosophy fitting in with some of these
other systems that are out there
yeah i think it's it's very closely
related it's super closely related you
know this is something i emphasize in
the book is the history i'm really a fan
of history i think to understand the
present and the future you have to
understand the past uh and part of a
second brain by the way is tracking your
sources tracking the lineage of your
ideas exactly but gtd had an enormous
influence on me that's really how i
started my career was teaching gtd i was
sort of an unauthorized you know
unauthorized provider of
gtd training
um and what david allen did in my view
was simply create a process
by which a particular kind of
information which was actionable
information to do's tasks
could be turned from these vague what he
calls open loops right these vague
worries anxieties in your mind lurking
in the back of your consciousness
into clear actionable concrete to do's
in a system that you trusted to surface
them to track them and to finish them
that's what gtd did and i i so
appreciate that
he spent decades
you know really exploring the
implications of that and boiling it down
to its absolute simplicity um i hope i
have the you know the longevity to do
something similar
but when i set out to start teaching
building a second brain it was really to
do that same thing
for all the other kinds of information
all the non-actionable information the
notes the reference the lists the quotes
the research the highlights everything
else
right there's only two kinds of
information actionable and
non-actionable that pretty much covers
everything
um and so that's the relationship with
gtd uh which is super compatible
and then zeddle casting is even more
related i mean that's that's almost the
modern kind of inspiration for the
revival of this whole idea
which was used by this german
sociologist nicholas lumen in the 20th
century mid-20th century he used it to
write articles
and books and papers and he used index
cards on paper
i think one big difference that i'm
making is really making the leap and
committing to digital right like many of
the principles i teach can be applied to
paper
but i think at some point i think
recently we've crossed a threshold
where our devices are so ubiquitous the
software is strong enough and powerful
enough and easy to use enough
connectivity is almost universal that
i'm now comfortable saying you know what
paper is fine for some purposes but what
i'm teaching like my recommendation is
to go all in on digital
um okay that's the the primary
difference
so so this is a good uh good point to
ask my follow-up question which is that
i remember reading the book and noting
that you know it's very difficult to
talk tools in a book that you hope is
going to be around 20 years from now
because then you end up recommending
something that like you go to the
website and you get like a you know 504
gateway error or something and it's like
oh i went all in and i've made that
mistake i remember in my early days of
writing
i recommended a to-do list software
which was literally just to-do list like
it didn't have any other features and i
put it in there it's like well i just
use this one right like it's just as
good as any and then i'm getting emails
later people like oh yeah that software
doesn't exist anymore and it's but it's
it's a very simple thing like there's a
million to-do list softwares but you end
up committing to something that the
developers don't support or something
gets better after however we're having a
podcast right now we're in the ephemeral
media that is the internet and so anyone
who's listening to this and and we're
now aged and don't look as useful as we
do on this video our sound is useful if
you're listening to us you can trust
that okay go to thiago's website and
he'll have some update in 2042 or
whatever we are listening to this if
this podcast is still around what do you
recommend what do you use for tools what
what's the tech stack that you recommend
people get started with are there pros
and cons are there criteria you use to
evaluate these decisions of like this is
really important people get tricked by
these bells and whistles but they're not
so important i want to hear
yeah this was really
this was really one of the central
challenges of the book i mean to the
point that
it was almost difficult getting a
publishing deal because you know
publishers are like okay we work on you
know five to ten year time spans at
least
and you're gonna write a book on
software like why not just like publish
a pdf why not just like put this on your
blog
and i and i tried and i strongly
considered that but um i think what
convinced me to ultimately go forward
with it is there are some timeless
principles
there are some concepts that stand
the test of time uh and so i mean my
straightforward solution to that was
simply every time it got to the point to
recommend a specific product
uh i just stopped and i said check out
the second brain resource guide
which is now live actually just as of
this week so you can put it in the show
notes
so where do people go if they're
listening to this and they're driving
their car and they want to pull up their
phone no no don't do that but uh
i'm gonna have to send you the link i
don't know the url offhand i should
probably do that but i'll send you the
link to it it's just a page on the
building of secondbrain.com
which we're building a secondary.com
they can go there and there'll be a link
to internationally exactly yeah so it's
a completely free public resource
and also linked to many places
throughout the book uh and all it is is
just a step-by-step process of
determining what is your note-taking
style first of all
like i actually joke that you don't
choose a note-taking app and no taking
out chooses you
because it's so personal it's so related
to your temperament your personality
your goals the way that you naturally
think about information so we have four
archetypes
uh including a video that kind of
describes what each one is
um and then i introduce you to some of
the different categories of second brain
apps because it's not just note-taking
apps there's web clippers there's audio
or video transcription apps there's pdf
readers there's e-book readers there's
probably a dozen different kinds
and then at the end we have a
comprehensive directory
naming specific products with the links
to their websites the operating systems
that they function uh on
the uh the type of second brand app that
it is and we're committing to updating
that essentially indefinitely to just to
keep keep it kind of relevant and timely
for people
okay that's very cool i'm definitely
after this gonna check out and figure
out what my it's this is like a
personality test now i guess it's like
one of those what kind of note taker are
you you should do these like 15-minute
you know the facebook quizzes that'll
what kind of note taker are you yeah
yeah i like that i like that um so
one of the things that i thought was
really interesting about this book
especially in light of what we're
talking about about this being sort of
for creative work and ideas and you know
learning not necessarily tasks not
necessarily the kind of you know busy
executive stereotype that i think
getting things done sometimes falls into
um is the idea of
organizing notes in terms of the action
situations that they might be required
so you talk about this um pera system
uh in terms of organizing things for
action and i think this goes back to my
original problem that i talked about in
this sort of opening you get all these
notes and then you're like ugh i got to
go through them
how do you organize your notes so that
they become actionable so that they come
up for you at the right time so they're
they're sort of set up in your ecosystem
so that when you need to know something
you you encounter it again
yeah totally i think that's
that's kind of the uh the driving
principle of much of what i teach is
you know there's a lot of reasons to
take notes there's some reasons that are
more appreciative like you know there's
a joy an inherent joy in thinking for
sure
right
but i think just what i'm most
interested in or what i care about or
what makes the biggest difference to
people's lives i think and their careers
and their businesses is completed
creative projects
to me that is the that is the unit of
progress that is most relevant in
today's modern world
is a completed project not something
you're working on not something you're
thinking about not something you're
collecting research on but like when you
can point to
a specific result a specific outcome
that is done it's finished it's
delivered it's shipped there is an end
point right
that means you get to first of all step
away you get to offload something from
your you know your your workload but
also that's where the reputation comes
from that's where you build connections
that's where you you know you prove you
know what you're talking about that's
where you create impact for others
and it's like modern knowledge work it
often doesn't come to conclusions
everything is every version of the
website is just the next version right
every version of the document every
version of the memo every version
everything is just kind of
ongoing ongoing ongoing that i think we
have to actually put some intention to
having things finish
having things come to conclusions and so
pera is my framework for organizing it
stands for the four categories of
information that encompass everything
you might ever want to keep which are
projects areas resources and archives
but they come in a certain order in
order of priority the first one as you
noted is projects which is the first
class citizen the fir the top of the
hierarchy
and all it means is to just i mean it
really couldn't be simpler it's just to
just identify your current active
projects which that step alone we do
this in my course i lead people
live through the process of doing that
just that alone is so clarifying
right like if you ask the average person
what are the currently active projects
they can't really tell you they have a
vague idea some of them others are very
unclear and it's just making a list this
is what i'm committed to this is what
i've i've decided is is going to happen
and then once you've done that you've
done 90 of the work
of setting up pera which is to just
create a notebook or folder or tag or
whatever you know scheme your
note-taking app uses for each one of
your active projects when you create a
container for something you start to see
more of the things that could go in
there right it's like having a
placeholder so when you create these you
know empty notebooks or folders suddenly
you you realize everything you touch
that's related to your projects which is
most things can just with one second
with one motion be put right into the
corresponding notebook which means the
next time you work on that project you
just go right to that notebook and you
have everything related to it in one
place
so i want to uh i want to end on a kind
of a personal story i i really liked the
discussion of your father because he was
a an artist or is an artist and
has had an influence on how you think
about creative work which i mean my
parents aren't artists i mean a lot of
people here probably don't have artistic
parents but
how did that influence your thinking
about not only
the creative process but how creative
work actually happens and how it
actually gets done as opposed to maybe
the mythos that surrounds it
yeah it had such a profound impact
growing up it was like it was like
living in two worlds because you know
he'd paint these beautiful imaginative
colorful paintings
and everyone who saw them
you know they came over to the house or
they saw the website or they'd see his
art in a gallery
they had this i could just tell they had
this image of him that was like the
classic artist
and they saw him as this just like you
know
mystical spontaneous completely
structureless you know imaginative
person which he is
but i saw what happened behind the
scenes i saw the other side of that
equation which is my dad
was and is so structured he's so
systematic everything
functions according to a principle every
time he approaches a painting
he is
he is approaching it from a very
systematic way
and that is what allowed him to be
prolific
right to not get bogged down for weeks
and months on one painting
it allowed him to earn a living from his
art which is an enormous accomplishment
in any field right
uh and third allowed him to raise four
kids in cal in southern california which
is like an even difficult more difficult
accomplishment
um and i think that's what so many
whether they call themselves artists or
creatives or writers or just knowledge
workers are missing today they have a
gift
they have some talent they have some
good ideas
they have opportunities i have all the
pieces of the puzzle
but they're just missing that systematic
process and mostly because they just
didn't have a model
most of our models come from movies or
films
right where it's that classic
just free form just no no principles no
structure no process and i just think
that's not realistic
no i love that i love that and i think
that really reflects a lot of my ideas
about creativity i think you know we
romanticize the insight and often not
the persistence and effort and indeed
what you talk about the systematicity of
it so i want to thank you for chatting
with me and helping with some of my own
note-taking issues i really recommend
everyone who's listening this right now
to check out thiago forte's book i think
if you liked ultra learning or even if
you hated ultra learning um they're
they're very similar books in a way that
they i think they work well together
because i often talk about learning and
what's going on in your head and tiago
fart is often talking about what's going
on on
paper computer to sort of complement
that and i think they're both really
important parts of the puzzle so i want
to turn it to you is there anything else
you'd like to say is there anywhere that
you'd like to send people direct them if
they're listening to this
yeah thank you i appreciate the
opportunity and and i would i would echo
that you know
note-taking is a great compliment to any
personal growth
personal development or self-improvement
you know pursuit
whatever you're learning whatever that
is using all the techniques that scott
talks about in his book it's just a
place to document it it's just your it's
your your journal your log you know the
companion to your your personal learning
uh so i encourage you to check out you
know building a secondbrain.com there
you'll find links to all of our free
content to the book to the course it's
really the central hub
um and yeah just thanks for for having
me on scott
oh yeah it was great chatting with you
you
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