Mitochondria, Cell Danger Response, Antioxidant Myths, and more with Ari Whitten
Summary
TLDRIn this episode of the Energy Blueprint Podcast, host Ari Whitten discusses the cell danger response with Dr. David Jockers. They delve into how mitochondria act as the body's environmental sensors, shifting the body into 'wartime metabolism' when under threat. The conversation explores the importance of understanding this response for managing chronic inflammation and disease. They also touch on the role of phytochemicals, antioxidants, and the significance of building physiological resilience through hormetic stressors like exercise and cognitive challenges.
Takeaways
- 🧬 The cell danger response is a model that explains physiological processes in health and disease, emphasizing the role of mitochondria as central to metabolism and cellular defense.
- 🔋 Mitochondria serve as the 'central hub' of metabolism, not just as energy generators but also as sensors that detect environmental threats and respond accordingly.
- ⚠️ When mitochondria perceive a significant threat, they shift from 'peacetime' to 'wartime' metabolism, initiating the cell danger response to protect the body from harm.
- 🌱 The cell danger response involves complex interactions with phytochemicals in plants, which are deeper and more nuanced than commonly understood.
- 🏋️♂️ Exercise and other hormetic stressors, like cold exposure and fasting, can stimulate the cell danger response positively, leading to increased resilience and health when applied correctly.
- 🧠 Cognitive reserve capacity, similar to physical resilience, can be built up through learning and mental challenges, offering protection against neurodegenerative diseases.
- 🔄 The quality and quantity of mitochondria are highly malleable, influenced by lifestyle choices such as exercise, which can counteract age-related decline.
- 🌡️ Oxidative stress, often viewed negatively, is a necessary signal for the body to adapt and build a stronger antioxidant response, including within the mitochondria.
- 🌿 Many phytochemicals act as xenohormetic stressors, inducing low-level oxidative stress that, when managed, can lead to beneficial cellular adaptations.
- 🧪 The body's resilience to stress is trainable, much like physical strength, and includes psychological aspects such as willpower and emotional resilience.
Q & A
What is the main focus of the 'Energy Blueprint Podcast'?
-The 'Energy Blueprint Podcast' focuses on health and wellness, often featuring interviews with experts to discuss topics such as mitochondria, cell danger response, and chronic inflammation.
Who is Dr. David Jockers and what is his role in the podcast episode?
-Dr. David Jockers is a practitioner who interviewed Ari Whitten for his 'Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.' In the podcast episode, he is the one who conducted the interview with Ari, which is then shared on the 'Energy Blueprint Podcast'.
What is the cell danger response and why is it important?
-The cell danger response is a model that conceptualizes physiological processes in health and disease states, particularly focusing on how mitochondria react to perceived threats by shifting from energy production to a defense mode. It's important for understanding complex chronic illnesses and inflammation.
How do mitochondria function beyond just energy production?
-Beyond energy production, mitochondria act as environmental sensors, detecting threats and contributing to cellular defense mechanisms. They are central to the cell danger response and are involved in many biochemical reactions and physiological processes in the body.
What is the relationship between the cell danger response and chronic inflammation?
-Chronic inflammation can result from a persistent cell danger response, where the body is continually perceiving threats and not able to complete the healing cycle, leading to an ongoing state of 'wartime metabolism' and inflammation.
What factors can keep the body stuck in the cell danger response?
-The body can get stuck in the cell danger response due to continuous exposure to stressors that initially triggered it, such as toxins, heavy metals, or psychological stress, without allowing the body time and space to recover.
How does the homeodynamic space model differ from the allostatic load model?
-The homeodynamic space model expands on the allostatic load model by incorporating the concept of stress buffering capacity, which is the organism's resilience to stressors. It suggests that resilience is as important as the stressors themselves in determining health.
What role do phytochemicals play in health according to the podcast?
-Phytochemicals are discussed as being more complex than commonly believed, with many acting as xenohormetic stressors that induce a low-level oxidative stress, signaling the body to build up its antioxidant response and bolster cellular health.
Why is it counterproductive to take antioxidant supplements with exercise?
-Taking antioxidant supplements with exercise can be counterproductive because the oxidative stress created by exercise is a signal for the body to build up its internal antioxidant system and increase mitochondrial biogenesis. Reducing this oxidative stress with supplements can inhibit these beneficial adaptations.
What is the significance of hormetic stressors in building resilience?
-Hormetic stressors, such as exercise, cold exposure, and fasting, impose a low level of stress that, when managed properly, can signal the body to adapt and become more resilient. These stressors are crucial for stimulating adaptations that enhance health and longevity.
How can one start improving their physiological resilience?
-To improve physiological resilience, one can engage in hormetic stressors like regular exercise, cognitive challenges, cold exposure, and fasting. It's important to find the right dose that provides a stimulus for adaptation without causing harm.
Outlines
🎙️ Podcast Introduction and Interview Context
Ari Whitten introduces the podcast episode featuring an interview he did with Dr. David Jockers for the 'Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.' The interview covers topics like mitochondria, cell danger response, and the complex narratives around antioxidants and oxidants. Ari emphasizes the importance of understanding these topics beyond the typical discussions in functional medicine and natural health circles.
🧬 Delving into the Cell Danger Response
The conversation with Dr. Jockers explores the cell danger response, a concept introduced by Dr. Robert Naviaux. It's a model that explains physiological processes in health and disease, with mitochondria playing a central role. Mitochondria are described as the 'central hub of metabolism,' moving beyond their traditional portrayal as mere energy generators to being key players in cellular defense and sensing environmental threats.
🛡️ Mitochondria's Dual Role in Cellular Defense
Ari and Dr. Jockers discuss the dual role of mitochondria as energy producers and cellular defense sensors. Mitochondria assess the cellular environment for safety, switching between 'peacetime' and 'wartime' metabolism based on perceived threats. This can lead to increased oxidative stress and inflammation, which are part of the body's defense mechanisms against threats.
🔄 The Healing Cycle and Chronic Inflammation
The discussion shifts to the factors that can keep the body stuck in the cell danger response, leading to chronic inflammation. Examples include persistent exposure to toxins or heavy metals. The speakers emphasize the importance of completing the healing cycle and returning to a state of health, which is disrupted by ongoing stressors.
🌐 Modern Stressors and Their Impact on Health
Ari explains how modern lifestyle and environmental stressors can lead to chronic activation of the cell danger response, resulting in disease. He introduces the allostatic load model and the homeodynamic space model, which includes the concept of stress buffering capacity. The conversation highlights the need to reduce stressors and build physiological resilience.
🏋️♂️ The Role of Exercise and Other Stressors in Health
The speakers discuss how exercise and other hormetic stressors like cold exposure, fasting, and phytochemicals can prime the body for resilience. These stressors, when applied appropriately, can signal the body to build up its antioxidant response and improve mitochondrial function, leading to better stress resilience and health.
🧠 Cognitive Reserve and Brain Health
Ari talks about cognitive reserve capacity, drawing parallels with physical resilience. He explains that learning and challenging the brain can build cognitive reserve, which protects against neurodegenerative diseases. The conversation underscores the importance of mental and physical activities in maintaining health and preventing disease.
🌱 Phytochemicals as Stressors for Health
The discussion highlights the role of phytochemicals, commonly misunderstood as mere antioxidants. Instead, they act as xenohormetic stressors, inducing low-level oxidative stress that signals the body to bolster its internal antioxidant systems, thus promoting health and resilience.
🏃♂️ Exercise, Adaptation, and the Importance of Balance
Ari and Dr. Jockers emphasize the importance of exercise as a hormetic stressor that, when balanced correctly, can signal the body to increase its bioenergetic capacity and stress resilience. They discuss how excessive exercise or the wrong type of stress can be detrimental, highlighting the need for balance in stress application.
🌿 The Complex Role of Oxidative Stress in Health
The speakers delve into the complex role of oxidative stress, explaining how it's not inherently bad but a signaling mechanism for the body to adapt and build a stronger antioxidant system. They discuss how antioxidant supplements can interfere with these adaptations, emphasizing the importance of understanding stress as a signal for growth.
💪 The Power of Behavioral Influence on Physiology
Ari concludes the interview by stressing the malleability of our physiology and the significant impact of our behaviors on health. He encourages listeners to take control of their health by building capacities through appropriate lifestyle choices, emphasizing that we are not just victims of our biochemistry but can actively shape it.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Mitochondria
💡Cell Danger Response
💡Oxidative Stress
💡Inflammation
💡Antioxidants
💡Hormetic Stressors
💡Allostatic Load
💡Resilience
💡Cognitive Reserve Capacity
💡Mitochondrial Biogenesis
💡Homeodynamic Space Model
Highlights
Introduction to the podcast featuring an interview with Dr. David Jockers for the Conquering Chronic Inflammation Summit.
Discussion on the cell danger response as a model for understanding health and disease states.
Mitochondria's role as the central hub of metabolism and their dual function in energy production and cellular defense.
The shift from peacetime to wartime metabolism in response to perceived threats or stressors.
The importance of understanding the complex story of antioxidants, oxidants, and free radicals.
Insights on phytochemicals in plants and their deeper impact on health beyond common beliefs.
The concept of allostatic load and its role in the development of chronic disease.
The homeodynamic space model as an advanced approach to understanding health and disease.
The significance of physiological resilience in maintaining health and preventing chronic inflammation.
How cognitive reserve capacity builds resilience and protects against neurodegenerative diseases.
The impact of aging on mitochondrial capacity and the role of lifestyle in either maintaining or reducing this capacity.
The hormetic effects of stressors like exercise, cold exposure, and fasting in building resilience.
The importance of the right dose of stressors to stimulate adaptation without causing harm.
The role of phytochemicals as xenohormetic stressors that signal the body to build stronger antioxidant systems.
The counterintuitive finding that antioxidant supplements can inhibit the benefits of exercise by reducing oxidative stress signals.
The psychological aspects of stress resilience and the trainability of mental capacities like courage and willpower.
Final thoughts on the malleability of physiology and the impact of behaviors on health, disease prevention, and longevity.
Transcripts
you are not as um so much of the the
medical narrative wants to to push on
you sort of just a victim of
biochemicals floating around in your
body hey this is Ari welcome back to the
energy blueprint podcast in today's
episode i Am featuring
myself this is an interview that Dr
David jockers did with me for his recent
conquering chronic inflammation Summit
uh which took place in August and their
team shared this interview with me uh
for us to share freely on our platform
uh and with the hopes of course that you
guys would maybe be interested in going
to check out uh Dr David jer's work and
the Conquering chronic inflammation
Summit which I highly recommend you do
and so we got this interview and we
decided to do something different for
this week's podcast instead of me
interviewing another expert we decided
to share one of the many interviews uh
that people do with me so I often am
interviewed for various online Health
Summits and health documentaries usually
two or three times per week on average
and maybe some of you maybe a lot of you
see those on other people's um online
Summits and documentaries and things
like that um but if you don't we're
going to feature one of those here on
the energy blueprint podcast so in this
episode I have a wonderful conversation
with Dr David jockers and we get into a
a lot of great stuff uh around
mitochondria around the cell danger
response around the story of
antioxidants and oxidants or free
radicals or reactive oxygen species uh
and a lot of layers to that story that
most people are unaware of and most
people find pretty shocking uh to to
actually sort of uncover that the story
is quite a bit more complex than you've
been led to believe the story of also a
lot of the phytochemicals in plants is
also much deeper and more complicated
than most people believe uh so we get
into a lot of that a lot of different
layers of insight around mitochondria
beyond the typical thing that you hear
in functional medicine and natural
health circles um sort of you know
mitochondrial dysfunction just take your
CoQ10 and B vitamins and pqq and
alphalipoic acid and that sort of thing
um the story is quite a bit deeper there
as well so there's a lot of great stuff
here that I think you will get a lot of
value from and with no further Ado enjoy
this episode of yours truly Ari Whitten
always great to connect with you and
always enjoy our conversations and one
of the main topics I love talking with
you about is the cell danger response
because really not many functional
practitioners or conventional I mean
really conventional doctors this isn't
even on their radar and most functional
practitioners aren't even really aware
of it or at least not able to
communicate it effectively but but this
is a it's really the way that we need to
start looking at complex chronic illness
chronic inflammation it's essential to
really understanding physiological
processes in our body and so let's break
this down cell danger response and its
relationship with chronic
inflammation okay so that's a big
question um let's see where to
begin the cell danger response is
um it's a model
uh a
hypothesis um and a a a way of
conceptualizing what's going on
physiologically in health and disease
States uh and it comes from a researcher
an mdphd who runs a lab for
mitochondrial medicine at the University
of California San Diego named Dr Robert
navio and I think about 10 years ago he
published sort of the seminal paper that
was called the cell Danger resp response
and this was the first outline of this
model this way of understanding um a
disease and and health processes and and
he he puts this really at the center of
the vast majority of disease processes
he's since since published a number of
papers since then uh developing this
model uh adding new layers of insights
to it also testing it you know testing
lots of of things related to it in his
lab in at
UCSD um and I think the most recent
paper uh came out in 2023 which was
titled let me see if I can find it
mitochondrial and metabolic features of
Salu Genesis and the healing cycle I
particularly like this because salog
Genesis or
salutogenesis which is the Genesis the
creation of Health as distinct from
pathogenesis the creation of disease
processes which is the focus of really
the entire entire of of modern medicine
um is a big focus of mine at at this
moment so um the basic idea of the cell
danger response has a lot to do with
mitochondria okay mitochondria are in Dr
nao's words the central Hub of the wheel
of
metabolism the metabolism is a word that
most of us kind of associate with like
weight loss and you know how many
calories we burn but the the actual
meaning of that word that that's resting
metabolic rate right um and and that
word has been has sort of morphed into
metabolism but the true meaning of the
word metabolism is actually all of the
biochemical reactions that occur in your
body like basically everything that's
going on in your body everywhere in your
body is metabolism and uh what what Dr
navio is saying is that mitochondria are
the central hub Hub of all of this of
everything that's going on in your body
which is this in itself is a really
important thing to understand
because the way we all learned like you
and me and all of our friends and
colleagues we all learned about
mitochondria starting you know in grade
school and in high school and in college
and in graduate school and Physiology
and in in in medical school all all of
these things it it was taught to us as
really just the PowerHouse of the cell
that's the thing we got remember on our
exams we learned the electron transport
chain we learn how mitochondria turn um
fuel carbohydrates and fats ketones into
energy in the form of ATP but really
they're framed as these sort of mindless
cellular energy generators that really
all they do is they take in fuel from
our food and they pump out ATP and
that's kind of you learn the different
process of nadh and fadh and you know
this whole electron transport chain
stuff and CoQ10 and blah blah blah and
ATP synthes and it pumps out ATP but
really the whole thing at the end of the
day is is really they take in fuel they
pump out energy they're mindless
cellular energy generators and what Dr
nav's work did with the cell danger
response was synthesize a huge body of
evidence that has been accumulating over
the last two or three decades um from
researchers all over the world on the
other rol
of mitochondria like all these other
things that mitoch that we've been
discovering that mitochondria do and it
turns out they do a lot um of different
things in our body and they're really
important to almost everything that you
could imagine and you can you can learn
this really quickly by sort of Googling
um any medical concept you can think up
or any disease you can think up and
mitochondria and you'll probably find a
whole bunch of papers on that now um so
the the the the simplified idea of the
cell danger response is really that um
and I'm I'm removing a lot of the
complexity here intentionally for the
sake of understanding but the basic idea
is that mitochondria actually have two
major roles one is the story that we
were all told in our education which is
energy generators okay they they they
are these things that they do take in
fuel they pump out energy okay that's
one major role that mitochondria has
the other major role that they have is
in Cellular Defense and it turns out
that they are basically functioning as
the canaries in the coal mine of our
body they are these sort of exquisitely
sensitive environmental sensors that are
constantly taking samples of what's
going on inside the cell in in the
environment to perceive the environment
and they're asking the
question is it safe for us to produce
energy okay they're they're trying to
get a picture of whether the body is
under threat or under attack in some way
and if it isn't then they're going to
operate in what Dr navio calls peacetime
metabolism and they're going to produce
energy in abundance and everything's
great however to the extent that they
pick up on danger signals on threat
signals that the body is under attack in
some way and we can talk in detail of
what what that means and how it how it's
sensed
um to the extent that they pick up on
those signals and to the extent that
those signals are perceived to be an
overwhelming threat that surpasses their
capacity to deal with that threat then
they shift from energy mode from
peacetime metabolism into wartime
metabolism into the cell danger response
and what that cell danger response is
all about is fighting off and
combating the the threat and protecting
the body as much as possible from that
threat and what what happens in this
state um the first phase of the cell
danger response uh which is really the
most important phase this is this is
sort of the Crux of what the cell danger
response is is it really revolves around
okay we're battening down the hatches we
are trying to decrease the amount of
signaling and communication going on
we're shutting down cellular energy
production we're throwing off lots of
oxidative stress we're creating lots of
inflammation to signal for our immune
system cells to to come into this area
which might be the whole body or might
be systemic in the blood um or might be
localized to a particular area we're
we're signaling for the immune system
via oxidative stress via inflammation to
attack to defend the body and combat
this threat okay so um as an analogy
imagine that you know you're in your
house and um you're preparing dinner
you're chopping vegetables and you're
you're making dinner for your kids and
then a criminal breaks in puts puts a
gun to your head says give me all your
money give me all your valuable stuff
you're not just going to keep chopping
vegetables and preparing dinner as
normal you have to to stop doing that
you've got to deal with the threat so to
to the extent that the body is under
attack and under threat it's turning
down the dial on all of the normal
healthy metabolic processes and energy
production in particular and switching
to a mode of Defense wartime metabolism
and combating that threat so it's
important to understand these two modes
energy production mode and defense mode
the cell danger response are mutually
exclusive to the extent you're doing one
you're not doing the other yeah it's a
great explanation I think about the
mitochondria as the nervous system of
the cell basically like the brain and
nervous system and so we used to think
they just had a motor function kind of
like your nervous system tells your arm
you know your bicep to flex um but we
know the nervous system was constantly
taking in input right and adapting to
the environment around it and that's
basically what the mitochondria are
doing they have an aeren and eer or a a
a sensory and motor function and they're
adapting to basically give us the
greatest possible survival advantage and
in some cases that means turning up
oxidative stress in fact happens often
turning up oxidative stress which is a
precursor to
inflammation and turning up inflammation
but that should be for a short period of
time until we complete the healing cycle
and return back to a peacetime
physiology but there are many factors
that can keep us in this wartime
physiology and when we're stuck in that
when we in we have an incomplete healing
cycle and we're stuck in this wartime
physiology that's when we end up with
over time chronic inflammatory
conditions and so what are the things
what are some of the main factors that
hey that was that was a great that was a
great followup to everything I explained
that was like the the next layer of what
I was going to explain you we're like
tag teaming this that's it well I've
been studying this for a while now too
and uh you know credit to you as well
you're one of the the the people that
turned me on to the saw danger response
and as you know once you go down this
Rabbit Hole uh you know it's really
fascinating and it changes the way you
view how the body adapts and so it's
something I've been studying and really
doing my best to try to be able to
communicate as well awesome you're doing
a great
job great so let's go into things that
can keep us stuck in that cell danger
response and incomplete basically you
know we need to complete the healing
cycle if we don't what obviously that
that's going to lead to chronic
inflammation so what keeps us stuck in
the cell danger response okay so uh you
know there's there's a a simple and
short answer to this and there's a
longer more complex answer and there's a
whole lot of nuance and potential
complexities that could be involved as
well the very simple and short version
is if the stressors that are inducing
the state of cell danger response in the
first place are continually present
without letting up that you can expect
the cell danger response to be more
persistent or chronic or the body to get
stuck in that place so as an example you
know we can think of the cell danger
response the normal inflammatory process
in the context of let's say AC an acute
injury like you're playing soccer you
spraying your ankle you've got
inflammation and swelling and redness
and you've got an inflammatory response
in that area immune cells are activated
to to take care of that um and repair
the damage or the same is true like in
the context of uh common cold or flu or
covid or you know in the context of an
infection you got this transient
activation for several days maybe a
couple weeks um to deal with the threat
and then you have resolution and this is
the cell danger response phase two and
phase three and then ultimately getting
back to health and normal function um so
this this is a cyclical process Health
okay now we've got to deal with a threat
cell danger response one cell danger
response Phase 2 three and back to
health okay and that's that's designed
that that that's how this system is
designed to function and functions very
well in the context of acute stressors
injuries
infections most
things that we're we are designed
ancestrally to deal with now this
picture so in the modern world this
picture changes um and we sometimes have
different stressors that we can be
exposed to that are relatively chronic
or persistent so for example if we've
got um uh heavy Le you know heavy metals
um exposure that stays stuck in our body
for a long period of time if we are
chronically getting exposed to mot
toxins from the place we live um or if
we're getting exposed to other toxins
from our food from our water supply from
the air we're breathing constantly um
and we are not escaping that you know if
if it's sort of just a chronic
NeverEnding unrelenting onslaught of
stress that the body is trying to deal
with we can't expect it to return to
health and normal function because it's
still trying to deal with those threats
so it it hasn't had the time and the
space to be removed from the sources of
stress to be able to recover so that
that's the the very simple version of it
is as long as you have these stressors
that have triggered you into the cell
danger response in the first place still
present in your life you can expect to
stay in the cell danger
response the more complex answer to this
is we have
to I I'll explain two models of um ways
of understanding conceptualizing disease
so one is called the
allostatic model um allostatic load
model of health and disease and this
this is the dominant model the way that
most people in functional medicine and
and natural health tend to understand
health and and Bas the basic idea is the
more we have total body stress load from
toxins from sleep deprivation and
circadian rhythm disruption um from
psychological stress uh from all sources
from relationships from our job from you
know traffic jams from whatever we're
dealing with um the more we have a poor
diet the more we drink alcohol the more
we smoke the more we um sort of get all
the the fundamentals wrong in the way
that we are living and the environment
we're in the more we have these
stressors that are uh impinging on our
body's ability to maintain homeostasis
and this is basically called allostatic
load or total body stress load and at at
a certain point at a a certain
threshold when those to when that
allostatic load gets big enough the body
stops being able to maintain
homeostasis okay and then and then we
have the beginnings of symptoms and
disease and our physical
decline okay and that's that's a really
good useful um and highly accurate model
and way to understand human health um
but it it doesn't go quite far enough
and there's a better better model that
is not very well known um um outside of
geroscience circles geroscience is the
study of human aging study of Aging in
general um and this is called the
homeodynamic space model of human health
and basically the homeodynamic space
model incorporates everything from the
allostatic load model for the most part
but it adds one layer to this to to the
discussion which is what is the
organism's stress buffering capacity so
res yes exactly so um the allostatic
load model generally says okay we've
we've got you know these stressors these
stressors cause disease um what do we do
to fix the situation we do our best to
remove these sources of stressors on the
organism great awesome however what's
missing from this picture is resilience
the resilience and the the the ability
to resist these stressors without being
damaged by them is also Central in this
picture and the more that you understand
what resilience actually is
physiologically and how the modern world
affects it the more you realize that
physiological resilience is actually
just as big of a player in this
discussion as all of these different
stressors of the modern world so what
what we really have and I'll tie this
back into the cell danger response what
we really have is yes we've got a modern
world and environment
that have a high allostatic load that
strain the body's ability to maintain a
state of health in homeostasis and we've
also got a modern world and a modern
lifestyle that drives loss of
physiological resilience in numerous of
the systems of our body that are
critical in resisting the negative
effects of these stressors the
allostatic load and what that does is it
shifts the balance to make us much more
easily overwhelmed by these stressors in
in our life and in our environment and
when if you remember what I said earlier
when I was describing the cell danger
response it's when the mitochondria
perceived themselves to be under an
Attack under attack to a degree that
they don't have the capacity to deal
with and that was an illusion to
physiological resilience
so that picture more Al estatic load
less L resilience leads to a situation
where we are much more likely to be
overwhelmed by the stressors in our
environment and to be stuck in the cell
danger response so there's two things we
have to fix we have to minimize and
reduce and eliminate the sources of
allostatic load as much as possible from
our from our life and we have to build
resilience back into our physiology in
in order to shift ourselves out of this
chronic state of inflammation this
chronic state of the cell danger
response that's a great explanation and
you you said that that theory is the
homeodynamic what was it the
homeodynamic homeodynamic space model
space model and so if we were to put
that into a math equation from what what
I'm understanding you
saying if if it was like a division
problem the Alo the overall allostatic
load or kind of the cumulative effect of
toxins infections stressors on our body
would be at the top can't remember what
the numerator denominator is so it's at
the top yeah and then it's being divided
by your overall stress resilience which
would be pretty much determined by the
amount of healthy high functioning
mitochondria within the cells of the
body I would imagine that would be uh a
big factor when it comes to your overall
stress resilience and that would be at
the bottom right so the so it would be
being divided by that and the higher
overall number you know so equal to the
higher overall number would be more of
in a sense the downward pressure causing
causing causing you to stay stuck in the
cell danger response developing uh
chronic disease
whereas the lower the number because you
have a higher number at the bottom the
division number lower allostatic load at
the top um the more overall resilient
your body is and the lower the potential
for developing chronic
illness I believe
so and and I say that because I've never
conceptualize this uh in terms of math
well that's why we're having
conversations like this you know so I'll
tell you I and and I certainly
understand what you're what you're
getting at here um and I'll tell you how
I think about it so um and I'll give
some examples um think I'm gonna put
that into an infographic and send it
over to you yeah there there are
infographics on this if somebody wants
to do a Google image search so what what
the infographics that I like generally
show are um let's imagine
that we have a line here that is our
threshold for where we so like a picture
a bar graph okay
so we we have a line here like through
the middle of the graph that is our
threshold where if if we go below that
line um in terms of our resilience
we now have
basically let's see how I want to
explain this um this is sort of the
critical threshold and if you go under
this capacity this threshold you start
to get the beginnings of disease
processes okay so this this this bar
represents your stress buffering
capacity and if it shrinks to the point
where it goes below this bar now you've
got the beginnings of disease okay so um
mitochondria play a central role in this
I'll talk about that in a minute but
I'll give another example because
actually this principle extends to
almost every system of the body and this
is actually the subject of the book I've
been writing for the last year
um but you'd be shocked at how many
different systems of the body this
applies to so I'll give one example here
um there is something in that that is in
the literature called cognitive Reserve
capacity it's also called there's
another distinct Concept in the
literature called brain Reserve capacity
these two things are actually much more
overlapping than a lot of the literature
um sort of indicates or tries to imply
but basically what this is is the
concept that I'm describing it's the
homeodynamic space of the brain um now
what builds this homeodynamic space of
the brain this cognitive Reserve
capacity
turns out learning things builds your
cognitive Reserve capacity learning
things learning new things challenging
things
challenges the neural circuitry of your
brain much like lifting heavy weights
challenges your muscles to grow bigger
and stronger and in response they do
grow bigger and stronger the neural the
neuronal circuitry of your brain
literally structurally grows stronger um
and this is mediated by a whole number
of things different different molecules
dendritic spines better connections
between neurons specific neurons and
networks of neurons and the actual
physical structural robustness of
certain areas of the
brain and that that's you know you can
actually see if you do a brain
scan and this cognitive Reserve capacity
um came to be discovered basically
because they found that people who had
more education in their life more formal
education were had were strongly
protected from neurodegenerative
diseases like Alzheimer's and Dementia
okay so learning things like going to
school and learning things or learning a
language or learning a musical
instrument or even learning physical
things like dancing or a
sport creates more cognitive Reserve
capacity in the brain which actually
translates into being able to resist a
lot of the forces that would otherwise
degenerate the brain and end up with
with uh giving you Dementia or
Alzheimer's dementia okay so if you
picture that that bar graph that I
described before and here's the cut off
for where you start getting Alzheimer's
or
dementia and somebody with high
cognitive Reserve capacity who has spent
a lot of their life engaged in Active
Learning and education is way up here in
terms of their stress buffering capacity
so they can go many many more years and
and endure a lot more stress on that
system before they ever get down to that
that threshold where they're going to
start exhibiting dementia and
Alzheimer's disease whereas somebody
with much lower Reserve capacity in
their brain is has a much smaller window
of time and much smaller capacity uh to
endure stress on that system before
before that system degenerates to the
point where now you're exhibiting
Alzheimer's disease and dementia so this
this is a spectrum and it is about your
physiological resilience and capacity to
endure stress on that system whether
it's biochemical stress whether it's
toxins whether it's sleep deprivation
any any type of stress on that system um
your Your Capacity to resist it without
being damaged and to resist it long
enough that it ends up not being the
thing that kills you now that principle
that I just
described um again I'm writing a book
basically you know one chapter of the
book is on cognitive Reserve capacity
but the other chapters are on all the
other physiological capacities in the
different areas of our body and how they
protect us against disease and and
bolster our Health and
Longevity but mitochondria as you said
are also Central to this story and um
this is a bio our bioenergetic Reserve
capacity and one of the things that we
have to understand
is basically any type of stressor you
can imagine any type of stress on that
system is creating a bioenergetic stress
on that system so whether it's toxins
whether it's sleep deprivation whether
it's even healthy things like exercise
or learning things like I just described
in the brain um and and all the sources
of bad stress and allostatic load you
can imagine they are all creating an
energetic stress on on the cells of the
body as well and the capacity of your
mitochondria to meet that and and handle
that energetic stress or not handle it
is a huge determinant of whether you
will end up with your mitochondria
shifted into the cell danger response so
let me let me give you another data
point to overlay on this um it's been
shown in a number of studies that the
average 70-year-old has lost 75% of
their mitochondrial
capacity okay and this is a combination
of of of two things the mitochondria
themselves are shrinking physically
shrinking to about half the size and the
number of mitochondria that are present
per cell are also being reduced to about
half half the size and the combination
of those two things if you do the math
um since you're math guy apparently um
better than me uh the combination of
those two things is a loss of 75% of
your mitochondrial capacity now I I hate
percentages because it doesn't really do
this Justice to for people to really get
this what this means is that if you were
at 100% capacity when you were 20 and
you're now at 25% of Your Capacity this
is like going from a Ferrari V8 engine
in your cells when you were 20 to a
moped engine in your cells when you're
25
do you think that that affects your
ability to resist and to handle or
resist bioenergetic stresses to to to
resist the forces of stress on that
system absolutely it affects it to a
massive massive degree and and this is
fundamentally why um mitochondrial
dysfunction this kind of buzzword um in
in in Natural Health now um is linked
with so many different disase processes
yeah yeah for sure I always say the
quality of your life is going to come
down to the amount of mitochondria and
the quality of the mitochondria because
there's a big difference between a ccent
mitochondria which all of us have to
some degree and a young very stress
resilient mitochondria there's a night
and day difference there and so you may
have a certain amount of mitochondria
but a high percentage of those are ccent
um or age dysfunctional mitochondria in
a sense um your overall functionality
and your stress resilience going to be a
lot lower than somebody that has the
same amount of mitochondria but a higher
percentage of stress resilient high
functioning mitochondria that's right
yeah and and I'm glad you brought that
up
because I left one key point out of the
the story that I just told which is as
you just implied the the quality and
quantity of the mitochondria in our
cells is highly malleable and this this
picture I just painted of losing 75% of
your mitochondrial capacity as you get
older is actually just the average of
What normally and typically happens uh
to most people okay and what this isn't
is a claim that quote unquote aging does
this to our mitochondria in a sort of
biologically predetermined way actually
it's the opposite and here's here's the
good news because you're probably
feeling really um like this is really
bad news learning that your mitochondria
uh mitochondria and mitochondrial
capacity declines so much with aging um
if that's got you feeling down here's
the good news the good news is when we
look at 70y olds who are lifelong
exercisers they have the same
mitochondrial capacity as young people
do so um this is not a functioning of a
function of Aging per se this is
function of our lifestyle and what
what's really going on here um in terms
of mitochondrial size mitochondrial
quantity and quantity is that
um this is fundamentally a product of
the way we live and specifically the
degree of demand we put on those systems
so in the same way I I could I could
tell you and this is much easier for
people to understand because it's much
more outwardly visible as soon as things
start going down to a smaller level
humans kind of make the mistake of
thinking oh you know this is driven by
mysterious biochemicals and I need to
take a drug for this um but when it's
big and outwardly visible we have a much
more time with the logic of
understanding things in the proper way
um muscles okay so um with muscles if
we challenge our muscles by lifting
heavy objects what do they do they they
interpret this as a stimulus to adapt to
this challenge by growing bigger and
stronger it's a survival stimulus so um
in basically they're going in order to
better handle the challenges of my
environment to better survive my
environment and to be less damaged by
the stress of my environment I need to
to adapt to these demands by growing
bigger and stronger muscles okay the the
the opposite is also true so um and this
is the down so
before I get there this is actually an
amazing thing if if you like if you look
at a chair or a bicycle or a car or any
sort of other object in our environment
any inanimate object they don't do this
okay they they don't have the capacity
to sense and adapt to the demands on
them the more demands you place on those
systems the faster they break down and
wear out and
degenerate humans and living organisms
more broadly but humans are especially
good at
this have a very have have an incredible
almost magical ability to sense demands
on the different systems of our body and
adapt to them not by degenerating but by
actually growing stronger yeah okay and
as magical and amazing as that is there
is a downside to it which is the
opposite also is true so what happens if
you immobilize muscles in a cast like if
you've ever broken a bone the atrophy
exactly eight weeks later you go you you
go to the doctor they saw off your cast
you look down at your armor leg and it's
half the size of the other one okay
because the body similarly sensed well
you know we only care about survival I
guess we don't need these muscles to
survive our environment they're not
being used so they're just an energetic
liability they're just consuming
resources protein and energy um without
serving any purpose that facilitates our
survival so let's get rid of them
um the same exact principles of growth
and atrophy also apply at the
microscopic level with our mitochondria
so when they are challenged regularly
they grow bigger and stronger they
engage in quality control processes
which is what you were alluding to
earlier um mitophagy and preventing
syence improving the the actual health
and function of those systems growing
larger and growing more four of them
from scratch a process called
mitochondrial biogenesis um so you you
can actually reverse that Trend that I
was talking about before you can
actually increase the number of
mitochondria as well um but if you don't
challenge your mitochondria regularly
and there are physical challenges that
challenge the mitochondria in different
systems of the body also think of it
this way cognitive challenges also
challenge the mitochondria of the brain
of the neural circuitry of the brain
um in unique ways and there can even be
broken down further from there of
specific types of cognitive challenge CH
challenge the mitochondria in different
systems of the brain in unique ways and
in response to those challenges those
mitochondria adapt by growing bigger and
stronger and becoming more
numerous the converse is also true if
you live a life lacking in those stimuli
in in those challenges to those systems
the mitochondria shrink and atrophy and
literally die off so you have fewer of
them and as a result of that you
massively decrease your physiological
resilience yeah and so you're talking
about this concept of hormetic stressors
like exercise for example you know if
you do an intense workout like I did
today like you probably did today if I
took my blood work right while I was
doing that or right afterwards it would
look like I had a heart attack massive
inflammatory numbers but you know 24
hours later my inflammatory numbers are
really low um you know I I show all
signs of great metabolic health and my
system has adapted to create more
endogenous antioxidant production better
oxidative stress buffering um you know
and just a better cellto cell
communication all the things that we
want for stress resilience and so but I
got the right dose that's the other
thing with the hormetic stressors
because there's certainly a limit where
you or I could easily overtrain I've
been there before um where we're doing
too much physical activity not resting
enough not creating enough you know not
getting enough of the stimuli like
melatonin and and um human growth
hormone production from good quality
sleep to where we're not able to adapt
and recover effectively and then we're
overstressing our system and so we got
to get the right dose of these stressors
like exercise like learning um you know
which anybody that's a little bit older
you know you you start trying to learn
something new you get pretty easily
frustrated so um it is a stressor on the
mind and so we got to get the right dose
of these hormetic stressors to
appropriately boost our resilience
factor and not too much but also not too
little yeah that's right so um you know
and there's there's a number of
principles to extend off of that but um
one thing to understand is that
basically too much like let me put it
this way we we have um kind of an
abnormal way of thinking about certain
stressors exercise
which we all think of as something that
promotes health is as you alluded to
with your blood test results there um a
stressor on the body it is a
physiological stressor that creates
metabolic waste that creates a big spike
of oxidative stress and even
inflammation in the system um it is
genuinely a stress on the system if you
overdo it as you said if you overwhelm
the system with that stress it will
create harm um the the the beautiful
thing though is that when we engage in
types of stress that are biologically
appropriate for us because they were
historically present in our ancestors
over um countless
Millennia what happens is we are
uniquely well well adapted to um
creating adaptations to that that
stressor that actually make us stronger
okay and this this is a distinction
between certain types of stressors that
are biologically appropriate we're
present for the human species for a very
long time that we are accustomed to um
versus certain types of stressors like
let's say lots of the modern toxins in
our environment um that we are not well
suited to adapt to that we that we have
enormous difficulty transforming from
something bad into something good
exercise is a stress that we can
transform from something that is in the
immediate term something bad or
potentially bad um into something over
time when we engage in it consistently
and when we engage in it at a dose as
you said that is appropriate for our
individual capacity which differs widely
between individuals um when we get that
dose right and we go just a bit outside
of our comfort zone just above slightly
above our current capacity we stimulate
transient harm basically but that
transient harm is transformed into
signals that make adaptations that in
the long term make us stronger healthier
and more resilient to Future exposures
to
stress yep absolutely and that's this
idea of hormetic stressors and there's a
whole number of different hormetic
stressors exercise being probably the
the number one example that people
understand um but learning like you
mentioned that's a hormetic stressor in
our society today you know we a lot of
people are doing things like cold
plunges right getting cold exposure
there could be um you know certain types
of breathing like breath holds or um you
know just box breathing and things like
that that are somewhat of a hormetic
stressor as well because we're being
exposed to more carbon dioxide you know
so many people are short shallow
breathers and I know you have a whole
training on that um and so we have
fasting is is definitely a hormetic
stressor right our ancestors would go
because they didn't have pantries right
so they would go at times long periods
of time without without consuming food
and their body was able to adapt to it
and so Tim restricted feeding or or
fasting strategy that that can be a
hormetic stressor that done in the right
dose can make us more metabolically fit
and stronger more M you know obviously
help increase the quality and quantity
of mitochondria so we have all these
types of hormetic stressors that can
help Prime us for
resilience so where do you recommend
people start with you know some of these
different areas that they can focus
on yeah there's there's so many um you
mentioned a good list there I would add
uh sauna exposure to that list um
another aspect is actually
phytochemicals very common extremely
widespread misunderstanding is that most
of the The Beneficial
phytochemicals uh are are actually not
antioxidants as most people think they
are they are actually Xeno hormetic
stress or Xeno hortin and they stimulate
a low-level oxidative stress that is
transformed um much like exercise and
many of the other stressors um
transformed into beneficial adaptations
so the spike in oxidative stress is
actually transformed into an adaptation
of of bolstering and building up what's
called the a the the antioxidant
response element which is our internal
cellular antioxidant system so the more
you engage in these types of stressors
um and really exercise breath holding
sauna exposure uh cold exposure um all
of these actually create oxidative
stress which is something that we all um
have been taught in most circles to
think of as a bad thing um but
actually interestingly enough well I'll
I'll tell um I'll tell an interesting
background Story related to that so uh
about 15 or 20 years ago or so um
researchers actually decided to study
this and they what they did was they
they recognized that exercise had a
whole bunch of health benefits
associated with it at that time of
course it was already known that
exercise was very good for us that
helped prevent uh disease and and and so
on um but it was thought at that time
that it's it's really unfortunate
that exercise also creates this big
spike of oxidative stress of free
radicals and that these free radicals
are damaging us so what if we take
antioxidant
supplements in tandem with exercise so
we get all the all the good stuff from
exercise all these benefits um reduce
risk of so many different diseases but
we eliminate the the downside of
exercise which is the these free
radicals this oxidative stress and these
researchers found something unexpect Ed
in these studies the more that they
supplemented with antioxidants vitamin A
C E things like that um before during or
after exercise the more that they
actually reduced and and canel out and
inhibited the metabolic benefits of
exercise because it turns out that part
of the adaptations to exercise um a big
part are actually adaptations to the
oxidative stress induced by exercise
that oxidative stress is actually a
signal to grow that internal oxid
antioxidation system redo system bigger
and stronger so if you take exogenous
antioxidants that reduce the oxidative
stress you reduce the signal on your
internal antioxidant system to grow
stronger and it turns out the oxidants
are actually a vital signaling molecule
for mitochondria themselves to detect
that there is a need for um increased
bioenergetic capacity
so all that stuff I was talking about
before about mitochondrial growth and
biogenesis actually depends on oxidative
stress signaling mitochondria have to
detect the presence of oxidative stress
which is essentially a deter a signal
that is that is um translated by them as
oh we're being overwhelmed this this
stressor is exceeding our bioenergetic
um uh production capacity so let's adapt
to it um to prevent damage oxidative
damage from future exposures to this
stress by growing bigger and stronger so
we can produce more energy so we can
handle this bioenergetic Demand on the
system in the future um so you know
those are all wonderful elements there's
uh um there's a number of psychological
aspects to this story as well um we
create psychological adaptations to
mentally difficult things in the same
way that we create um and
psychological as well as neurological
actually at the level of the brain in
very much the same way that we create um
physical adaptations and cellular and
biochemical adaptations to More Physical
stressors so cognitive Reserve capacity
being one of them but there's actually
many other dimensions of that as well um
so the actual resilience to stress is a
great uh is a neurally mediated in large
part um capacity like what is your
psycho emotional Reserve capacity what
is your level of resilience to handle
psychological and emotional stress um
courage willpower these are also
neurally mediated capacities that are
trainable in much the same way that um
muscular strength is trainable uh via
lifting
weights yeah this is really good stuff I
mean we can go for another hour on this
um but what I will say is that I know
the listeners got a ton of value out of
this this interview here and guys you
can check out Ari and all his podcasts
his programs his supplement formulas
energy blueprint.com I know he's got a
great program on breathing um also one
on gut health and he's got a great book
as well a couple great books eat for
energy how to beat fatigue supercharg
your mitochondria for all day energy
talks about the phytochemicals talks
about Tim restricted feeding all the
different a lot of the things that we
discussed here just recently and he also
has The Ultimate Guide to red light
therapy as well so some great books AR's
uh you know of my favorite people in
Natural Health space to talk to about
these ideas and I hope you guys got a
lot of value out of this Ari any last
words of inspiration here for our
audience I would say the the the big
principle that I want people to realize
that really is an extension of
everything that I've talked about here
is to realize how much of your
physiology is
malleable and plastic and is a function
of your
behaviors and you are not
as um so much of the the medical
narrative wants to to push on you sort
of just a victim of biochemicals
floating around in your body um the
biochemistry that you assess on blood
test is hugely a function of the
structure and function that you have
built that you have built in different
systems of your body and the biggest key
to health and disease prevention and
energy and Longevity is building those
capacities love that Ari always a
pleasure my friend be blessed
[Music]
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