How to achieve peace in Israel and Palestine | Jared Kushner and Lex Fridman

Summary

The discussion delves into the complexities of achieving peace in the Middle East, particularly between Israel and Palestine. It critiques the flawed incentive structure of past peace processes, highlighting the lack of democratic representation and rule of law in Palestinian leadership. The speaker proposes a pragmatic peace plan focusing on territorial contiguity, security, and religious site management. The conversation also touches on the Abraham Accords and the potential for economic prosperity through normalization, emphasizing the need for a future-oriented approach to resolve deep-seated conflicts.

Takeaways

• 😐 The speaker believes that achieving peace in the Middle East, particularly between Israel and Palestine, is difficult due to structural issues and an incorrect incentive structure.
• 📋 The speaker proposed a peace plan with operational details, which was criticized not for its content but for its origin and the fact that it was detailed, which is unusual in politics.
• 🌍 The speaker highlighted a pattern where negotiations failed, leading to Israeli settlements expanding and more money going to the Palestinians, but not necessarily benefiting the people.
• 🏛 The Palestinian leadership was criticized for not being democratically elected and for not providing a judicial system, property rights, or economic opportunities for the people.
• 🔑 The speaker emphasized the importance of changing the approach to peace negotiations, focusing on what each side could accept rather than historical grievances.
• 🕊️ The concept of the Arab Peace Initiative was discussed, which the speaker found lacking in detail but useful for the Palestinians to maintain a stance of rejection.
• 💰 The speaker pointed out the corruption and misuse of funds in the Palestinian leadership, with money not reaching the people who needed it most.
• 🤝 The speaker differentiated between the issues of Israel and the Muslim world, which centered around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the territorial dispute between Israel and Palestine.
• 🗺️ A pragmatic solution was proposed, focusing on territorial contiguity, security for Israel, and access to religious sites, without getting bogged down in historical disputes.
• 🕌 The Al-Aqsa Mosque issue was simplified by suggesting that instead of fighting over sovereignty, focus should be on ensuring peaceful worship for all.
• 💼 The speaker criticized the international community for not holding the Palestinian Authority accountable and for not ensuring that aid money reached the Palestinian people.
• 🌐 The speaker observed a divide in the Muslim world not between Sunnis and Shias, but between leaders who seek to improve their people's lives and those who use religion or fear to maintain power.

Q & A

What is the main reason for the difficulty in achieving peace in the Middle East according to the speaker?

The speaker believes the main reason is structural, with an incentive structure that was all wrong, leading to a cycle where negotiations failed but resulted in more land for Israel and more money for the Palestinians, which did not reach the people but went to the politicians.

Why did the speaker's peace plan for Israel and Palestine receive criticism?

The criticism was not about the details of the plan itself, but rather the fact that it was coming from the speaker's side and people did not want to debate the operational merits of the plan.

What was the speaker's approach to the peace process that differed from previous envoys?

The speaker took a different approach by focusing on the actual solution rather than historical context, asking for compromises that both sides could live with, and making the process more tactical and less about theoretical discussions.

What does the speaker identify as the three main issues to resolve for peace between Israel and Palestine?

The three main issues identified are territorial contiguity (drawing the lines), security for Israel, and the management of religious sites.

How does the speaker suggest managing the religious sites to ensure peace?

The speaker suggests focusing on operational aspects rather than concepts of sovereignty, allowing everyone to worship peacefully without conflict, and considering King Abdullah of Jordan as the custodian of the mosque.

What was the speaker's experience with Sultan Qaboos of Oman regarding the peace process?

The speaker met with Sultan Qaboos after he had a secret meeting with BB Netanyahu. Sultan Qaboos expressed feeling badly for the Palestinian people carrying the burden of the Muslim world, which influenced the speaker's perspective on the issue.

What is the speaker's view on the role of Palestinian leadership in the peace process?

The speaker believes that the Palestinian leadership has been self-interested and not democratically elected, failing to provide the people with property rights, judicial systems, and opportunities for a better life.

How does the speaker suggest ensuring that aid money reaches the Palestinian people?

The speaker suggests making aid conditional, fighting for transparency, and ensuring that the money flows past the leadership ranks to the people through institutions or reformers within the Palestinian Authority.

What is the speaker's opinion on the role of the international community in the Palestinian issue?

The speaker criticizes the international community for not solving the problem but rather applying a 'noveacaine' approach by giving money without accountability or expecting reforms, which perpetuates the conflict.

What is the speaker's view on the potential economic benefits of peace and normalization in the region?

The speaker believes that peace and normalization could lead to a flourishing economy in the West Bank and Palestine, with the potential for a thriving tourism industry, better job opportunities, and economic reforms.

How does the speaker describe the divide within the Muslim world?

The speaker describes the divide as not between Sunnis and Shias, but between leaders who want to create opportunities for their people and those who use religion or fear to maintain power, with Palestinian and Iranian leadership falling into the latter category.

Outlines

00:00

🕊️ Challenges and Incentive Structures in Middle East Peace Efforts

The speaker discusses the complexities of achieving peace in the Middle East, particularly between Israel and Palestine, and the broader region. They argue that the incentive structure of the peace process has been flawed, with Israel gaining more land and Palestinians receiving more money after failed negotiations, neither of which has led to a resolution. The speaker criticizes the lack of a rule of law, judicial system, property rights, and opportunities for Palestinians. They recount their experience presenting a detailed peace plan to the United Nations Security Council, which was criticized not for its content but for its origin. The speaker emphasizes the need for a different approach, focusing on operational solutions and direct negotiation with the parties involved.

05:00

🌍 Rethinking the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and the Abraham Accords

This paragraph delves into the speaker's perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, suggesting that the issue has been conflated with the broader Israel-Muslim world conflict, particularly over the al-Aqsa Mosque. The speaker proposes a pragmatic approach to resolving territorial disputes and ensuring security for both Israel and Palestine. They emphasize the importance of religious site access and propose a solution that allows for peaceful worship without sovereignty disputes. The speaker also addresses economic issues, suggesting that aid to Palestine should be conditional and transparent to benefit the people directly. They highlight the potential for economic growth and normalization of relations across the Arab world, which could transform the West Bank and Gaza's economy.

10:02

💼 Economic Reforms and the Palestinian Leadership's Role in Stagnation

The speaker critiques the Palestinian leadership and the international community's approach to the Palestinian issue. They argue that the Palestinian Authority has not effectively used aid to improve the lives of Palestinians, instead perpetuating a system that benefits the leadership rather than the people. The speaker calls for aid to be conditional, transparent, and directed towards economic reforms that empower Palestinians. They also discuss the broader divide in the Muslim world, not between Sunni and Shia, but between leaders who seek to improve their people's lives and those who use religion and fear to maintain power. The speaker sees potential for a prosperous Palestinian economy, particularly if diplomatic relations with Israel increase, but notes that this requires overcoming deep-seated emotions and conflicts.

Keywords

💡Abraham Accords

The Abraham Accords are a set of agreements that established diplomatic relations between Israel and several Arab countries, including the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco. In the video, it's mentioned as an incredible work that signifies a significant step towards peace in the Middle East, showing a new approach to resolving long-standing conflicts by normalizing relations outside of the traditional Israeli-Palestinian framework.

💡Peace Process

The peace process refers to diplomatic efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The script discusses the difficulty in achieving peace, attributing it to a flawed incentive structure. The speaker criticizes past peace initiatives, suggesting that they failed to create a conducive environment for sustainable peace.

💡Incentive Structure

Incentive structure pertains to the motivations and rewards that influence the behavior of parties in a negotiation or conflict. The speaker argues that the incentive structure in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process was misaligned, with Israel gaining more land and Palestinians receiving more money after failed negotiations, which did not encourage resolution but rather perpetuated the conflict.

💡Operational Plan

An operational plan is a detailed strategy that outlines the steps necessary to achieve a goal. The speaker mentions presenting an operational peace plan to the United Nations Security Council, emphasizing the need for a pragmatic and detailed approach to resolving the conflict, as opposed to vague or theoretical proposals.

💡Territorial Contiguity

Territorial contiguity refers to the continuous and unbroken extent of a territory. In the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is a key issue that involves determining the borders and ensuring a viable and connected Palestinian state, which is one of the components the speaker believes must be addressed for a peace agreement.

💡Security Apparatus

A security apparatus encompasses the mechanisms and structures in place to ensure safety and protection. The script highlights the importance of a security apparatus in any peace agreement, emphasizing that Israel must feel secure and that the plan should enhance safety for all parties involved.

💡Religious Sites

Religious sites are places of worship or spiritual significance. The speaker discusses the complexity of managing religious sites like the Al-Aqsa Mosque/Haram Al-Sharif and the Temple Mount, which are central to both Jews and Muslims. The video suggests a solution that focuses on peaceful access to these sites for all, rather than disputes over sovereignty.

💡Normalization

Normalization refers to the establishment of normal diplomatic or trade relations, especially after a period of estrangement. The Abraham Accords are an example of normalization between Israel and Arab nations. The script suggests that normalization can lead to economic growth and a more stable region.

💡Economic Reforms

Economic reforms involve changes to a country's economic policies or structures to improve performance and stability. The speaker mentions the need for economic reforms in the Palestinian territories, suggesting that better economic management could lead to improved living standards and a stronger foundation for peace.

💡Corruption

Corruption is the abuse of power for personal gain, often involving bribery or embezzlement. The script criticizes the Palestinian leadership for corruption, alleging that aid money does not reach the people who need it, which hinders progress and perpetuates the conflict.

💡Refugee Organization

A refugee organization is a group or agency that assists displaced persons. The speaker refers to the unique status of the Palestinian refugee organization, criticizing it as a permanent entity that has not facilitated resettlement, suggesting that this perpetuates the conflict rather than resolving it.

💡Custodian

A custodian is someone who has the responsibility for the care and control of something important. In the script, the speaker suggests that King Abdullah of Jordan, as custodian of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, plays a crucial role in managing religious sites and promoting peace, indicating the importance of his position in any peace agreement.

Highlights

The peace process between Israel and Palestine is structurally flawed, with an incentive structure that does not promote peace.

The speaker proposed a pragmatic peace plan to the United Nations Security Council, which was criticized for its origin rather than its content.

A historical analysis shows that failed negotiations often led to Israeli settlements expanding and Palestinians receiving more aid, which did not reach the people.

The Palestinian leadership was criticized for being unelected and not providing rule of law, judicial systems, property rights, or opportunities for a better life.

Previous envoys were criticized for not changing the approach to peace negotiations, which the speaker believed were structurally unsound.

The speaker identified three key issues for a peace agreement: territorial contiguity, security, and religious sites.

The Arab Peace Initiative was highlighted as lacking detail, which allowed Palestinians to reject peace proposals while receiving more aid.

The speaker's business background influenced his approach to peace negotiations, focusing on tactical solutions rather than theoretical discussions.

The issue of the al-Aqsa Mosque was identified as a point of contention, with historical and religious significance complicating negotiations.

The speaker proposed operational solutions for religious sites, emphasizing peaceful worship access over sovereignty disputes.

The Palestinian economy was compared to neighboring countries, highlighting the potential for growth if aid were distributed more effectively.

The speaker criticized the international community for not holding the Palestinian Authority accountable for how aid money is used.

The idea of making aid conditional and promoting transparency was suggested as a way to ensure funds reach the Palestinian people.

The speaker discussed the potential economic benefits of normalized relations between Israel and Arab countries, particularly for the West Bank.

The divide in the Muslim world was characterized not by Sunni-Shia differences, but by leaders' approaches to economic opportunity and power retention.

The speaker emphasized the importance of creating a positive future paradigm to overcome past conflicts and hatred.

The potential for Palestinian entrepreneurs to flourish was noted, contingent on normalized relations and economic reforms.

Transcripts

if we can go back to the incredible work

with Abraham Accords and U Israel in the

Middle East first the big question about

peace why is it so difficult to achieve

peace in this part of the world between

Israel and Palestine and between Israel

and the other countries in the Middle

East or any sort of peace likee

agreements if I had to give you the most

simple answer I would say that it's

structural and if you go back to the in

structure of different leaders this

whole peace process between Israel and

and the

Palestinians um and again I've gotten

criticized for saying this but it's what

I believe so I'm going to say it is that

the incentive structure was all wrong

and when I went before the United

Nations security Council to discuss the

peace plan that I proposed which again

was more of an operational plan and it

was a pragmatic plan it was over 180

pages in detail in Pol in politics

people don't like putting forward detail

because it just gives a lot of places

for you to get critic criticized on

nobody actually criticized the detail of

my plan they just

criticized the fact that it was coming

from us and didn't want to debate the

merits of the operational pieces of it

so I created a slide where I showed from

the Oslo Accords till the day I was

there all the different piece

discussions I put a dove in the slide

for those and then I put a tank for

every time there was a war there was

always skirmishes between Hamas and and

Hezbollah and and the Palestinians and

then I showed two lines and they both

went from the bottom of the page all the

way up like this one of the lines was

Israeli settlements so every time uh a

negotiation failed Israel was able to

get more land and every and then the

other one was money to the Palestinians

and I said every time a negotiation

failed the Palestinians would get more

money the problem with that money though

was that it wasn't going to the people

you know a lot some of it would make its

way down but most of it was going to the

politicians you had leadership of the

Palestinians who was basically I think

at that point in like the 16th year of a

four-year term so he wasn't

democratically elected and a lot of what

I tried to show was that there was no

rule of law there was no Judicial System

there were no property rights and there

was no opportunity or hope for the

people to live a better life and so all

of the uh envoys to date were basically

trained to go and do the same things and

I again I got massively criticized by

all the previous envoys for not doing it

the same way they did but I thought the

problem structurally just didn't make

sense and so I felt like the incentive

structure was all wrong and I took a

different approach and so what's what's

the different approach I started writing

down a document these are the you know

11 issues but there's really only three

issues that matter I said just tell me

what you think the compromise is that

you think the other side could live with

that you would accept and it was very

hard to get them talking about this oh

you have to go back to 1972 you have to

go back to 1982 you have to go back to

2001 you have to go to camp and I was

just like I don't need a headache and I

don't need a history lesson just just I

want a very simple thing here today in

2017 what's the outcome that you would

accept and I was dealing with their

their their negotiators their back

Channel secret negotiators their double

secret I was like this whole thing is

like it's a process created where nobody

wants to talk about uh the actual

solution so coming from the business

world I said okay let me just write down

a proposed solution that I think is fair

and let me have each side react like

don't tell me about theoretical things

like tell me I want to move the line

from here to here I want to change this

word so I tried to make it much more

tactical and what I realized was like

the Palestinians they'd worked so hard

to get the Arab world to stay with the

line of the Arab peace initiative and so

I went back and I read the air peace

initiative it was 10 lines and it didn't

have any detail so it was a concept and

so they liked that concept because it

allowed them to reject everything they

kept getting more money I mean BB

Netanyahu who runs uh one of the most

incredible EC economies in the world who

runs an incredible superpower uh

militarily for the size of of their

country he would fly to Washington to

meet us and he'd be taking a commercial

LOL plane MH a boss who runs a refugee

organization a refugee group right that

claims that they don't have a state that

gets billions of dollars in eight year

eight every year from the global

Community would fly in a $60 million

Boeing BBJ so the whole thing was just

very corrupt and off and I do think that

that's why it um I don't think people

were incentivized to solve it to be

honest what do you think an actual plan

on that part if you can just before we

talk

about uh Abraham Accords if there is a

peace plan that works between Israel and

Palestine what is it what do you think

it looks like you have to separate it

into two different issues and I think

that that's actually how we came to the

Abraham Accords is that you know I I I

was I tell the story in the book and it

was one of my like favorite experiences

during my time in diplomacy where where

I went to meet with Sultan kaboose who

was the Sultan of Oman and we fly out

there because he'd had a secret meeting

with BB and I thought maybe he was open

to uh normalizing with Israel so after

he meets with BB he calls me and says I

want you to come see me so I go over to

see him and I again I tell the story it

was a crazy you know night in all these

different areas but when I was talking

to him um he basically says to me I feel

badly for the Palestinian people that

they carry with them the burden of the

Muslim world

and that line just like stuck with me

and a couple days later I was thinking

about it and I said wait a

minute who elected the Palestinian

people to represent the Muslim World on

the aloa mosque and so the reason why I

felt like it had never been solved was

it was a riddle a that I believed was

designed to not be solved but B you were

conflating two separate issues you had

the issue between Israel and and the

Muslim World which really was the issue

of the alaka mosque and then you had

just a territorial dispute which

throughout history you have lots of

territorial disputes and they're usually

resolved in different ways so if you go

back to the Israeli Palestinian issue

there's just a couple components you

need to solve number one is territorial

contiguity right you need to figure out

where do you draw the lines and that's

something that you know you can talk

about what people were owed 70 years ago

but it's much more productive to say

this is what you can make work today

right and that's kind of what we did I

we literally spent months and months

drawing a map and we put something out

probably Chang a couple lines here and

there but by and large it was a very

pragmatic solution um that I think could

work and I think it could work for the

Safety and Security of Israel which was

number one um so first issue is drawing

a map second issue was security again

Israel um and again this is one issue we

were incredibly sympathetic with Israel

which is you can't expect a you know a

prime minister of Israel to make a deal

where he's going to make his people less

secure than before so we worked very

closely with them on a security

apparatus we laid something out that I

think would keep the whole area safer

and it would it would make sure Israel

was safe and also keep the Palestinian

yesu safe so you need security number

three was the religious sites and that

was one that was actually always made

much more complicated by people uh the

aloa mosque because you basically have

Haram Al Sharif which is a place where

the mosque was built in the seventh or

8th Century um but originally it was

where the the holy of holies were in the

beta mdash for the Jewish people so and

then you know compounding by the fact

that you have all the Christian holy

sites in Jerusalem it's a city that

should be bringing everyone together but

in fact has become a place where you

have you know Wars and and and and and

hatred and a lot of different conflicts

that have risen because of it but what I

said was instead of fighting over

concepts of sovereignty which is

interesting how I got to the notion that

this wasn't really the big issue I B

said just operationally why don't we

just make it simple let everyone come

and be able to worship as long as

they're being able to worship peacefully

so that's really the Contours of it and

what the Palestinians have done is

they've kind of deflected from a lot of

their own shortcomings and a lot of the

Arab leaders did that as well kind of in

the pre- Abraham mord Days by kind of

allowing this issue to be so prevalent

so one thing I'll say on the

Palestinians is that you know what we

tried to do by laying outed plan was we

said okay um what are the reasons why

the Palestinian people are not having

the lives that they deserve I'll give

you a couple things one is I studied the

economies of you know Jordan uh West

Bank Gaza Egypt Morocco uh this was you

know numbers from like 2019 but what was

interesting was the GDP per capita of

somebody living in the West Bank was

actually the same as Jordan and it was

actually more than somebody living in

Egypt and the debt to GDP that the

Palestinians had was like 30 40%

compared to Egypt which was at like 130%

and Jordan which was at 110% and Lebanon

which is at 200% and so you know you're

in a situation where a lot lot of this

stuff didn't make sense but if you draw

lines create institutions where

Palestinian people can now feel like

they have property rights and have

ownership over their place and let the

money flow past the leadership ranks uh

you know to the people let them have

jobs let them have opportunity and then

let all Muslims from throughout the

world have access to the mosque and

Israel making sure that they can control

the security which I think the

jordanians and a lot of others want

Israel to to have strong you know

security control there to prevent the

radicalists and the extremists from

coming

you could have peace there very easily

so there's a lot of things to say here

one is just to emphasize uh Alexa MK

says this this holy place and this is

something in our conversations and in my

own travels I've seen the importance of

sort of frictionless access to those

sites from the entirety of the Muslim

world and that's what Abraham of course

took big leaps on okay so we'll talk

about that a little bit more

uh but that's kind of a religious

component that's a a dignity in the

religious practice and Faith component

but then the other thing you mentioned

so

um uh simply which is you have money

flow past the leadership ranks how do

you have money flow past the leadership

ranks in uh in Palestine so uh make sure

that the money that's invested in

Palestine the West Bank gets to the

people so to date all of the aid that's

been given to the Palestinians has been

an entitlement it's not conditions based

it's always just we give the money and

there's no expectations it's very simple

you make the aid conditions based you

fight for transparency you do it through

institutions other than the PA or you

put reformers into the PA that will

allow it to go down that way PA being

the Palestinian Authority which is the

leadership it's not hard to do it just

takes people who actually want to do it

but I think the the the mindset of the

International Community has not been let

solve this problem it's like let's just

throw a little bit of money the money's

novacaine let's put a little Novacane on

the problem and let's not have to deal

with it but nobody's ever said oh let's

do an accounting of the2 billion we've

given them and see how many jobs it's

done and where it's gone that just

hasn't happened again it's it's it's an

incredibly corrupt organization unra you

think about the postor War II Dynamic

you had a lot of refugees my

grandparents were refugees post World

War II every other Refugee class has

been resettled and you only have one

permanent refugee organiz ation ever

created why was this done it was done to

perpetuate the conflict so that a lot of

Arab leaders could basically deflect

from a lot of their shortcomings at home

and so I think for Israel they view all

these things as existential they value

their safety they've been under attack

for a long time I do think having a deal

where we can say how do you know the

Jews and the Muslims Chris come together

I think King Abdullah from Jordan's been

an incredible custodian for the mosque I

think everyone in my travels recognized

that he's the right guy for that that

the the King of Jordan should be the

custodian of of the mosque um we should

have some kind of framework to make sure

everyone has access the more countries

that have diplomatic relations with

Israel the more Muslims and Arabs that

should be able to come and and visit and

by the way the more you have these

normalizations think about what that

will do to the economy of the West Bank

where they'll have you know great hotels

Hospitality uh tremendous tourism

industry because of all the Christian

Muslim uh and Jewish holy sites that

they have there so there's a lot of

potential there we just have to like get

unstuck I believe that it's so possible

if the leaders want to make tomorrow

better that they can and unfortunately

the people who suffer the most are

really are just the Palestinian people

and I think that you know in Gaza they

hostages to uh to Hamas and and in the

West Bank they're just they're just held

back because their leadership just is

afraid or or too

self-interested to give them the

opportunity to change their Paradigm and

pursue the potential of what they have

and by the way it's an incredibly

well-educated

population um it's it's an incredibly

capable population and they're right

next to Israel where the economy they

need everything and so the potential

should be incredible if you can just

move some of these pieces but again

there's still a lot of emotion and

hatred you have to work through as well

but I do believe that you're not going

to solve that by litigating the past

you're only going to solve that by

creating an exciting paradigm for the

future and getting everyone to buy in

and then move towards that and maybe

increase the chance of uh being able to

establish an economy where the

entrepreneurs can flourish in the West

Bank and so on in Palestine uh

once the uh the relationship across the

Arab world is normalized so so one thing

on that which is very interesting is

when I got into my job in in in in the

Middle East all the conventional

thinkers said to me the separation in

the Muslim world is between the S sunnis

and the Shia and that's really the big

divide and as I was traveling I didn't

think there was any divide in that

regard the divide that I saw was between

leaders who wanted to give a better

opportunity for their people and create

economic reforms and opportunity and

leaders who wanted to use religion or

fear to keep their stronghold on Power

and so if you think about who's not

creating the opportunity for their

people is the Palestinian leadership and

the Iranian leadership all the other

Arab countries were focused on how do we

give opportunity for our people to live

a better

life