How the PM role is changing in 2024 | PM expert panel

Summary

在这段引人入胜的讨论中，三位产品领袖深入探讨了产品经理（PM）角色的演变，及其如何逐渐从内部流程转向更加关注客户和产品。从Airbnb的案例出发，讨论了如何减少“内部琐事”，并通过具体例子揭示了如何更有效地连接和理解客户需求。此外，还涉及了产品经理使用人工智能（AI）的趋势，以及在当前严峻的就业市场中，如何打破常规，通过创新和改变找到或创造机会。这次讨论不仅为产品经理们提供了前沿的行业洞见，也为想要进入或在产品领域内部转型的人士提供了宝贵的建议。

Takeaways

• 📊 产品管理（PM）的角色在过去10年中逐渐演变，更多地关注内部流程和系统，而较少关注客户和产品。
• 🎯 PM的角色需要重新聚焦于客户，减少内部流程的干扰，以提高对产品的关注度和创新。
• 🚀 Airbnb等公司正在尝试改变PM的角色，更多地关注产品和客户，而不是流程和指标。
• 🤝 PMs需要与设计师和工程师等其他职能团队紧密合作，共同推动产品的发展。
• 🌟 优秀的PM领导者不仅需要关注细节，还要能够激发团队的潜力，推动整个组织的进步。
• 🛤️ PM职业发展不应该是单一的线性路径，而是可以根据个人兴趣和技能发展多样化的职业道路。
• 💡 PMs应该持续学习和实践，保持对新技术和行业趋势的敏感性，如人工智能（AI）的应用。
• 🧠 面试用户时，应该让用户多说话，通过倾听来获取深刻的洞察和反馈。
• 🔍 在寻找新工作时，要深入了解潜在公司的文化和价值观，确保与个人职业目标和工作风格相匹配。
• 🌐 利用社交媒体和网络平台来建立个人品牌和扩大职业网络，这对于PM职业发展非常重要。
• 📈 保持对数据和分析的关注，这对于PM做出基于数据的决策和提高产品性能至关重要。

Q & A

在过去10年中，产品经理的时间分配发生了哪些变化？

产品经理越来越多的时间被内部流程、内部系统和内部沟通占据，从而减少了了解客户和专注于产品的宝贵时间。

Airbnb如何开始思考将重点转移到更加注重客户的方向上？

Airbnb开始思考如何将产品经理的时间分配图表从更多关注内部流程转变为更加客户关注和对客户的着迷。

Sonan在Airbnb的职位是什么？

Sonan曾是Airbnb的产品管理头。

Nikki在Duolingo的角色是什么？

Nikki是Duolingo的产品指导，负责新科目倡议。

产品经理角色的演变包括哪些方面？

产品经理角色的演变包括更多地关注于客户体验、使用原型驱动的产品管理而不是规范驱动，以及更加战略性的设计参与。

产品经理在工作中面临的常见挑战是什么？

产品经理常面临的挑战包括大量时间用于参加会议、处理状态报告、遵循复杂的流程以及进行日常站立会议，这些都分散了他们的注意力。

Airbnb如何改变其产品开发方法？

Airbnb采用市场叙事先行的方法，从用户生活将如何因产品发布而改变的角度出发，进行产品设计和开发。

产品经理在职业发展中可以选择哪些路径？

产品经理在职业发展中可以选择包括成为创始人、转向邻近领域（如市场营销或产品运营）或继续深入专业领域而不是追求管理职位的路径。

面对困难的就业市场，产品经理应如何提升自己？

产品经理应通过夜间和周末的个人项目、学习新技能（如AI技术）以及实际操作经验来提升自己。

如何有效地进行用户访谈以获得最有价值的洞察？

进行用户访谈时，应尽量少说话，让用户多表达，通过开放式问题引导用户分享他们的体验和感受，以获取深入的洞察。

Outlines

00:00

📈 产品管理的演变与未来

本段落讨论了产品管理(PM)的角色在过去10年中如何发生变化，特别是内部流程、系统和沟通占据了PM越来越多的时间，导致他们无法专注于理解和创新产品。讨论了Airbnb如何开始思考如何将这种趋势转变为更加以客户为中心，减少内部事务的干扰。提到了Brian Chesky受到苹果公司的启发，以及Airbnb如何通过原型驱动的产品管理而非规格驱动，来提高对客户的理解。

05:00

🤝 产品管理与设计的合作

这一段讨论了产品管理与设计之间的关系如何发展，特别是设计师在业务战略方面的日益重要性。强调了产品经理需要放弃对设计的控制，认可设计师的战略思维，并将他们纳入业务视角。同时，建议产品经理仍需提升自己的设计感，但要意识到专业知识应由专家来提供。

10:01

🚀 PM职业发展的多样化路径

本段讨论了PM职业发展的多样化路径，不仅仅局限于成为VP或CPO。提到了一些PM选择继续深入产品工艺，有的成为创始人，有的转向市场营销、产品运营或客户成功团队等相邻领域。强调了职业发展应该是多方向的，并且应该根据个人的兴趣和激情来调整。

15:03

💡 利用AI提升产品管理效率

这一段讨论了AI如何帮助产品管理人员提高效率和创造力。分享了一些AI工具的使用案例，如使用AI进行数据分析、创建培训材料、自动化OKR审查等。强调了AI技术对于产品管理职业的重要性，并建议产品管理人员积极学习和实践AI工具。

20:04

🤔 如何在面试中获取用户洞察

本段讨论了在用户面试中获取深刻洞察的策略，强调了让用户提供信息的重要性，并建议产品管理人员在面试过程中尽量少说话，多倾听。推荐了一些资源和技巧，如阅读Steve Portigal的书和使用ChatGPT来帮助准备面试指南。

25:06

🌟 成为优秀的产品领导者

这一段讨论了成为优秀的产品领导者所需的核心技能，包括对细节的深入了解、对行业和竞争对手的熟悉程度，以及如何放大团队的工作成果。强调了领导者需要具备的人际技能，以及如何识别和适应组织的文化和价值观。

Keywords

💡产品经理

产品经理（Product Manager）是指在企业中负责产品规划、开发、上市和生命周期管理的专业人员。在视频中，讨论了产品经理角色的演变，以及他们如何通过深入了解用户和市场来推动产品的成功。

💡内部流程

内部流程（internal processes）指的是企业内部用于协调和管理日常工作的一系列规定和步骤。视频中强调了过多的内部流程可能会占用产品经理大量的时间，从而影响他们对产品和客户的关注。

💡客户理解

客户理解（understanding the customer）是指深入了解客户的需求、偏好和行为模式，以便为他们提供更符合期望的产品和服务。视频中提到，产品经理应该将更多时间投入到对客户的理解和产品创新上，而不是被内部流程所束缚。

💡产品创新

产品创新（product innovation）是指在产品设计、功能、技术或服务模式上进行的新颖尝试和改进，以提供更好的用户体验和市场竞争力。视频中强调，产品经理应该专注于产品创新，而不是被日常的内部流程所牵绊。

💡职业发展

职业发展（career development）是指个人在职业生涯中的成长和进步，包括技能提升、职位晋升和角色转变等。视频中讨论了产品经理职业发展的道路，并提出了除了传统管理岗位之外的其他可能路径。

💡AI应用

AI应用（AI application）指的是人工智能技术在各个领域和业务流程中的实际使用，以提高效率、创新能力和决策质量。视频中讨论了产品经理如何通过学习和实践AI技术来提升自己的技能和工作效果。

💡激励机制

激励机制（incentive mechanism）是指通过奖励和认可来激发个人或团队的积极性和创造力，以实现组织目标的一套体系。视频中讨论了如何设计激励机制，以鼓励产品经理更多地关注客户和产品创新。

💡产品领导力

产品领导力（product leadership）是指在产品管理领域中展现出的领导能力和影响力，包括对产品战略的制定、团队的引导和跨部门的协调等。视频中提到了产品领导者需要深入了解用户和市场，以及如何通过领导力放大团队的工作成果。

💡组织变革

组织变革（organizational change）是指企业为了适应外部环境变化或实现内部战略目标而进行的结构调整、流程优化和文化转型等活动。视频中提到，产品经理在选择加入新公司时，应该考虑该公司是否愿意并能够进行必要的组织变革。

💡双重职业路径

双重职业路径（dual career track）是指在职业生涯中同时发展管理和专业技能的路径，使个人既能深入专业领域，又能获得管理经验。视频中讨论了产品经理可以选择这样的职业发展模式，既保持对产品的深入理解，又能获得更广阔的视野和管理经验。

Highlights

在过去的10年中，产品经理的时间越来越多地被内部流程、系统和沟通所占据，这削弱了他们理解客户和专注于产品的能力。

Airbnb开始思考如何将饼图转向更多以客户为中心、专注于客户的方向发展，减少内部流程的时间消耗。

产品管理角色正在发生变化，特别是在2024年，这一趋势正在加速。

Airbnb的产品管理不再是基于规格驱动，而是基于原型驱动，更多地与设计团队合作，制造想要发布的产品。

激励机制应该从上至下设计，公司文化主要由执行团队或创始人决定。

在设计激励机制时，应考虑直接与客户反馈和产品影响挂钩，而非仅仅依赖于同事或利益相关者的反馈。

产品管理角色在不同公司中差异很大，因此激励机制也应根据公司具体情况进行调整。

Airbnb采用营销叙事的方法来指导产品开发，从与用户沟通的角度出发，而不是从产品发布的角度。

激励机制应鼓励团队成员关注客户对产品的体验和感受，确保团队朝着共同的目标努力。

产品管理职业发展不应仅限于成为VP或CPO，还可以考虑创业、产品运营、客户成功团队领导等多元化路径。

产品领导者应该深入细节，了解用户和行业动态，以便更好地引导和放大团队的工作。

产品领导者需要具备强大的团队协作和领导能力，了解如何通过团队合作实现目标。

产品管理职业发展应像攀爬游乐场的攀爬架一样，而不仅仅是线性的梯子，要尝试不同的事物，找到自己的兴趣所在。

当面试用户时，应该让用户多说话，产品经理应该倾听而不是过多地谈论自己的产品。

产品领导者应该关注组织的变革能力，寻找愿意并能够适应和推动变革的环境。

在面试过程中，了解公司的运作方式、决策流程和直接上级的管理风格是非常重要的。

AI技术为产品经理提供了新的机会，可以通过实践和学习来提高自己在这一领域的技能。

产品经理可以通过构建自己的AI产品或参与相关课程来提高自己的技能，并为未来的职业发展打下基础。

Transcripts

if you draw a pie chart and divide every

PM's time spent increasingly over the

last 10 years it has gone towards

internal processes internal systems

internal communication taking away the

precious time needed to understand the

customer and actually focus on the

product right and that is why the

Genesis started at airbm start thinking

about how can we switch that py chart

into more customer focused customer

obsessed and less on the internal I

don't want to use the word Shenanigans

but like let's just use the word

shenanigans you know internal stuff I'll

give you a couple of examples right

there's meetings there's status reports

there's conbine processes to manage

there's scrum standups to go to there's

a lot of stuff that PMS do right and as

a result they lose time and Jealousy on

that that's one Trend that happened

today my guests are sonan exgen manager

at Airbnb Nikki product director at

dualingo and John senior director at

toast we talked about how the PM row is

evolving the case for du career track

for PMS our favorite product manager use

cases for AI and how to avoid PM title

and the and pick your own path over 200

people tune into this conversation live

so I think you'll love it too be sure to

like And subscribe for more interviews

like this let's get started yeah I'm

super excited to be here today I guess

today we're going to talk about how the

PM rooll is evolving and how you can

also Advance your product career and I'm

really lucky today to be joined by three

amazing product leaders I'll let them

introduce themselves San do you want to

go first happy do hey everybody welcome

I'm excited to be here U my name is

sonin I've been in Silicon Valley for

the last 18 years my first job was at

Microsoft that brought me over here most

recently I was at coinbase as a v

product and then before that I was a

head of product at Airbnb and before

that amongst the first 100 employees of

Instagram it was a fun ride excited to

be here thanks Nikki you want to go next

great thing so I'm calling in from

almost snowy not quite snowy Minnesota

and currently I'm a director of product

at du lingo where I manag the new

subjects initiative but I've been

working in product roles for I think

like 13 or 14 years I was also at Airbnb

where I worked on Airbnb experiences so

sonan how's it going good to see you and

then before that I was a director of

product at Etsy and I was an early

employee at Etsy I joined also in their

first 100 employees which was also a

crazy wild ride so I'm excited to be

here today I think the PM role has

really evolved in my last 13 years but

is really speeding up and changing

especially into 2024 so happy to be here

with you all okay and last but not least

John uh John Cutler I currently work at

toast in an interesting role senior

director of product enablement so I

enable our great PMs and product teams

prior to toast I was at amplitude where

I was a product evangelist for four

years I probably met with many of your

companies while I did that which was a

lot of fun and then worked at zenes and

pendo and a couple other companies after

a life of plain music and other things

before I got into Tech so that's a bit

about me and I write a newsletter I

enjoy writing a lot and drawing pictures

of product stuff awesome so I also want

to say that you know for all of our

panelists everything that we say here is

our own opinion doesn't represent our

employers just get that out of the way

so let's start with the PM row itself

right so maybe I'll share two anecdotes

to start I think a few months ago breski

from Airbnb shared that he had

eliminated the classic PM function and

then later he had to clarify that he

actually meant unifying product

management and product marketing and

recently I think it's because spent too

much time on Twitter but recently I seen

several startup Founders talk about you

know how they're proud of not hiring PMs

and you know also they're more focused

on Craft than on AB testing or metrics

so curious to hear from all of you about

the PM rooll I guess s CH I start with

you since you worked at Airbnb yeah

happy to share so actually one thing

I'll share is even though the

announcement happened right now when I

was there the journey or the path had

already started so I'll actually want to

share with you all the Genesis of this

idea a little bit more so how many of

you when asked at your company's survey

say man I spend like 80% of my time on

internal meetings internal processes

internal things you know and as a result

I don't have enough time you know I'm

overloaded with the if you can just type

in over there or give me a response

that'll be great because a lot of times

what I hear is like oh my God 80% of my

time is going into this internal

the other thing that I hear a

lot is oh my God I can't I don't have

enough time to talk to my customers I

don't have enough time to innovate

because I am drowning in meetings or

status reports or something else right I

mean these are the most common thing

that I hear a lot and that was true at

Airbnb too back in the day right so one

of the things that happened was Brian

chesy was inspired by Apple you know

there's a lot of people at Airbnb in the

board as well who are who are from Apple

and the the thought process was if you

draw a high chart and divide every PM's

time span increasingly over the last 10

years it has gone towards internal

processes internal systems internal

communication

taking away the precious time needed to

understand the customer and actually

focus on the product right and that is

why the Genesis started at airbn start

thinking about how can we switch that

pie chart into more customer focused

customer obsessed and less on the

internal I don't want to use the word

Shenanigans but like let's just use the

word Shenanigans you know internal stuff

I'll give you a couple of examples right

there's meetings there's status reports

there's conbine processes to manage

there's scrum standups to go to there's

a lot of stuff that PMS do right and as

a result they lose time and Jealousy on

that that's one Trend that happened the

other Trend that happened was that Brian

personally came from a design world and

if you ever talk to a designer you know

they don't made the painting you know

because they did a user research with 10

customers and said this is what the

painting should say they don't work like

that right the way they work is like I

build what I want to build and I'll find

people who actually love what I'm

selling right so what the process

changes as well from ideation right

right so at Airbnb AB testing was truly

a bad word it doesn't mean that you you

don't AB test but what it meant was if

you ever ask someone what are you

working on they don't open up an Excel

spreadsheet line by line showing you the

hypothesis and the experiments they're

going to run and the unit economics that

they're going to get out of that that is

the how the what was equally more

important so as PMS you'll be spending a

lot of your time thinking about what are

we building why are we building who's it

who are we building for and with an

awesome design team be fabricating what

we call the Prototype of what it is

building so at Airbnb it's a prototyp

driven product management not a spec

driven product management right I don't

remember any of my PMS riding detail

prds you know I remember a lot of them

spending a lot of time with designers

actually making the product that we want

to ship so we can touch it feel it smell

it you know again you can't smell

software but you get that and the the

the metaphor that I'm using over here is

that was really important so I think

those were the two trends that led to

the outcome that Brian has announced

recently you know but this is a trend

that I think everybody has to understand

because I don't think everybody should

adopt what Airbnb is doing just like

everybody shouldn't adopt what apple is

doing right just like everybody

shouldn't adop what Google is ring one

of the biggest mistakes you can make is

you join startup X and say I came from

company Y and work for them it's going

to work over here as well I think that's

another thing to keep in mind is that

does it doesn't happen that way so you

have to contextualize all the learnings

but I do believe that the product

management time span has to shift away

from internal cooking inter internal

management to actually be more allowed

to do more on customer building the

product testing the product Etc around

there so I'll pause there and then we

can go around the RO and there's a lot

more to unpack here yeah the only thing

I would build on that was so I also used

to work at Airbnb so this was really

interesting when I heard that news but

as somebody who's worked at a number of

different companies in in various

different product roles both IC roles as

well as management roles one thing I've

seen is the PM role is very different

inside of every company and it should be

right like you're building a very

different product everywhere you have

different sorts of customers that have

different needs and so I was excited to

see Airbnb experimenting I think they're

doing what's right for their product

which feels like a trend I imagine

you'll continue to see as people evolve

their orgs and figure out just what

works from a process standpoint for them

so good on them I'm really curious to

see like what the next couple years look

like for them honestly but I I was

excited to hear it yeah I think one one

thing I would add there meeting so many

teams and my role in amplitude is I

started to think of product management

is just a collection of hats and you

started to I met team that just ran the

complete Spectrum so like this Airbnb

thing did not surprise me in one bit

because I could just pattern match

across other companies that had decided

to put those hats on those particular

heads as you were kind of working

through so the one thing I observed too

at amplitude was it was almost like I

was you know not only is the role

different but the product management

role I I would say that on any given

week it was like a 20year journey of

maturity of different companies where

they were you know we'd be talking to

some companies it felt like it was 2002

and some companies it felt like it was

2022 in the same week right so the thing

that occurred to me there is that it's

very easy to pinpoint these specific

transitions for specific companies

realistically you know there's some orgs

where engineering wears some of those

particular hats there's some orgs where

design wears some of those hats there's

some where pmm wears some of those hats

so that's one thing that really hammered

home that product there are product

managers and there is product management

and product management is a series of

half

and some companies product managers

choose to wear some of those hats or not

and frankly I've seen other companies

that said we have no product managers

yet every product management hat was

being worn by someone they just didn't

decide on the title of that so I I just

add there the difference between product

management and product managers and the

hats that you wear you notice the

Spectrum as you go out and interact with

different companies yeah so true and

Peter one part of the question I don't

think we dug deeper into but if we can

take two seconds to talk about it your

question was also how you know l years

of the world that are posting on Twitter

and others they don't need some of that

stuff is also happening so I wanted to

add a little bit of that comment over

there if that's okay go for yeah so I

think one thing I want to also share is

product development methodology and

approach is also very unique across

companies so one is the role of product

management is different and the other is

how companies actually build products

itself is also different so I want to

take a minute to talk with you all about

how Airbnb decided to build products

over the last three years or so so often

times what we do is we write a PRD or do

a design mock or whatever that might be

you know H for a feature or a group of

features or a product area right and

then what we do is the entire company

does that and everybody has resource

constraints so they cut things and in

the end what ships is literally your orc

chart or some version of that orc chart

that is not fun for the customer so what

air does is slightly different there's a

guy by the name of hiroi you can search

him he was Steve Jobs left-hand guy and

he actually left Apple to join Airbnb to

become the Chief marketing officer at

Airbnb so I work very closely with him

and now both product and marketing

reported to him by the as a as an

example so this is how it works at

Airbnb the first thing at Airbnb that

they write is what is known as a

marketing narrative it is a simple

language term description of what will

happen to a user's life when your

Partnerships so they work backwards from

the communication to the user rather

than forward from what can we ship and

then craft a narrative for the user user

of what is shipped there's a fundamental

difference in the approach that this

company takes it is very much inspired

by Hardware companies and Apple for

example and this is the the difference

you'll see so twice a year they do major

releases and at that time they have

written down the narrative this is what

we're going to ship and this is what the

customer must feel for example when I

book when I want to travel at Airbnb and

I'm traveling with a large group of

people I'm able to easily find the home

that I desire that's the marketing

narrative that they're writing and from

there each team that takes that

marketing narrative thinks about what

products they must ship to meet that

marketing narrative so there's never a

debate on hey you know we got a cut

features to ship you know there another

Paradigm of Lean Startup right like

cutting is shipping you might have heard

this before right in Airbnb World

slightly different which is here's the

marking narrative we got to rise to that

occasion and ship that cohesive

structure and the biggest advantage of

this is that if there are five or six

different teams working together they're

all working with the same outcome in

mind as opposed to your backend team

cutting certain features while your

front end team is not cut certain

features and what ships becomes very

unusable by the user so this is another

thing that I wanted to just highlight to

make sure people understand how obsessed

Airbnb is about the customers

understanding of their product and the

Simplicity of the journey so as product

leaders how do you design the incentives

right cuz I show me incentives and I'll

show result so like as company scale you

have these career ladders and you know

you get evaluate based on you know some

big product review and like stakeholder

feedback you don't get value it based on

like customer feedback necessarily yeah

how do you design incentives for big

companies to actually focus more on

building and customer interaction yeah I

mean um I can share some example that I

would love to hear others as well but I

think this all starts down U very top

down you know I always tell people is

that your company's culture is pretty

much dictated by your executive team or

the founder that you're working at right

so I think it's really important to

start at the top and I think Peter to

your point the aligning of this in

successful companies that I've seen is

very much about the what and the outcome

I'll give you an example when I was at

certain companies that I don't want to

name you know because it'll be published

somewhere and then I'll have to be sorry

if I use their name but I just just

assume there was a company that I worked

with where peer feedback was very

important as a result of that nobody

bloody pushed boundaries because I was

worried what Peter Yang is going to say

in my perer feedback at the ual

performance review so I'm just going to

do the the least controversial that

I can to put this thing forward right so

the most successful companies that I

worked in I have found that what you

deliver was very important and peer

feedback did not make more than 10% of

the rating of a person's performance

review right so this just an example of

how you can strengthen these things so

customer Obsession customer focus

translates very clearly sometimes in the

output and the impact you're delivering

for your area right so the conversations

in right performance reviews in the

right company should be obsessed over

what did we deliver for the customer

what was the impact of delivering that

and I'm not saying the how is not

important yes you got to work with

people you got to have collaboration Etc

but the way you attach to some of these

other things that are culture Killers

like peer feedback you know stakeholder

reviews oh did I get a chance to have a

product review with the CEO because if

if one of my colleagues did they have a

feedback from the CEO saying that

product review was amazing I don't even

have a chance to do that so how will I

get promoted right those secondary

things are not very important that's one

example that I think we should think

about and I personally as a leader as I

built Airbnb and coinbase product

management organization to me not all

feedback is gift sorry Cheryl sber not

all feedback back is gift at feedback is

paralyzing it forces people to sometimes

not do the right thing so I'm also of

the camp that incentivize need to be

aligned towards the customer obession

awesome uh Nikki and John i' love to

hear from you on this topic too yeah

yeah I was the first thing that comes to

mind I realized in the last year of my

career at least don't fool yourself into

believing you can perfectly design

incentive systems in that sense that

there's a lot of second and third order

effects and it kind of assumes a certain

worldview of everyone you work with so

I'll give you a specific example you you

know I'll talk to a leader they'll say

well well everyone just wants this you

know everyone just wants that and you'll

talk to those people and they don't just

want that they might have a very you

know some people are craft oriented some

people are really like the process that

they're working through some people

could care less about how they got there

they only want to know kind of what that

thing is and maybe some people do care

about career advancement all the time

and doing this stuff so just to add you

know as the counterbalance to what s

just said is that I've come very

cautious about designing games for teams

because and I think that this is what I

would say is incentives start with the

behaviors of the leaders and what you

celebrate and the behaviors of what you

value and what you talk about and if you

don't it's so easy to overthink

incentives like you can design a game

for everyone but really it does start

with what do we spend a bulk of our time

talking about an example being you know

when the first three slides of a deck

are all about the process of the team

and then you only spend a little bit of

time at the end talking about how the

customer felt when they used it that's

essentially creating part of the

incentive system that you had so I think

it for product leaders listening you

know don't always I think be cautious

about your ability to design the perfect

incentive system especially assuming

that everyone in the world thinks just

like you because they probably don't

start with the behaviors that send the

messages that you want to send and then

I think incent people often craft the

incentives they care about around those

outcomes in that part of the culture so

I mean just as a counter balanced that

statement Nikki curious uh your thoughts

yeah one one thing to add so I think

this is something that dualingo does

really well actually and you know you

can feel this when you use their product

right it's just very delightful clearly

designed around customer needs and one

of the big things that is incentivized

and talked about every like all the way

up to the product review with the CEO

down into like team product reviews is

do customers like this is this going to

have a good impact are we hitting

achieving the outcomes that we've set

out to achieve and I think if you can do

a good job of just making sure that's

baked into your culture so that comes up

in it's in job ladders it's in

performance review feedback it is

basically everywhere and everyone's

talking about it then the org will take

it seriously and they'll bake it into

the product itself and I think you can

tell honestly like if you use a product

I was going to try to pick one I don't

want to pick on anyone's product in case

there's somebody out there but you can

kind of tell when you use somebody's

product if the product team is not

incentivized with the right things right

like you're like oh there's a lot of red

notifications here clearly it's

different teams fighting with each other

over eyeballs things like that right and

so I think just making sure that's part

of your process just is extremely

impactful love that all right so along

similar lines let's talk about a dual

career track for PMS so you know like

there's been a lot of layoff recently

and middle managers were hit especially

hard and now you know head counts very

constrained at many companies and you

know before it was like hey how can I

manage more PMS how can like manage

managers and now so like so now that

there isn't as much of an option to hire

and build a team do you guys think like

a IC plus management track is possible

for PMS or is that already happening why

don't we start with Nikki actually on

this yeah yeah yeah so I I hope to see

more of this honestly I think one thing

that I've really enjoyed in my career

and I've taken roles very strategically

based on my desire to keep my hands on

the product I haven't really wanted to

layer myself with a bunch of managers

away from actually building the product

and I've been able I've been lucky

enough where I've been able to kind of

keep very close tabs on the product

itself and so I'm kind of in a pseudo IC

management role right now I have a team

but I'm also still shipping stuff and so

this is just my advice to people is get

really clear on like what you're looking

for in your career some people really

are amazing managers and they love to

manage and some people do not like to

manage but because of career ladders and

the way that they are so linear we push

people into management roles a lot when

it's not always good for them and so I

hope to see more of this sort of like

dual management meet IC as long as we're

not burning people out because I think

it's hard to do both things well at the

same time but I'm hoping maybe that will

be a good output of some of the harder

Tech environment times we're in right

now yeah I think the one thing that

comes to that too is being very

conscientious about disrupting your

career because I noticed that just

looking at hiring in the last year a lot

of people were wandering into interviews

and they' kind of lost their Edge and

their basic claim to success was either

one or two or three companies they

worked at and their ability to manage

lots of people and they' really lost

their Edge for talking about outcomes

and talking about you know so they had

become you know just career managers in

that case and I think that people need

to be very conscientious about purposely

disrupting that track and so if you feel

yourself potentially slipping into that

I think it's going to be a lot harder in

these coming years there's just going to

be less demand for folks who are needed

for that type of thing and so I've met a

lot of leaders recently who have just

purposely down ranked you know they've

taken titles lower than that in in an

effort to really like sharpen their

skill set again and just be current and

so I think it's something folks need to

keep in mind such and interested what

you think about that yeah I think so a

couple of companies that actually do

have dual track as well so plus one

everything ni John said and I think if

you look at Facebook you go all the way

up to an IC track to product director

level so that's an L8 which is a product

director at Facebook is a pretty

decently chunky role you have a large

team that you're managing but there's

also a product director who's at IC as

well uh similarly at coinbase during the

last year or two we also tried to create

an IC role as well and at Airbnb we went

it all the way to principal so I think

it's it's possible to do that but

there's also understanding that unlike

the technical ladder you know where you

can become a distinguished engineer or

like a VP IC level VP I think in the

product management L it becomes really

hard to figure out what it looks like

beyond that distinguished product

manager exactly really funny like what

is that right what does that even mean

right so so I think the short answer is

yes there should there you should

absolutely continue to rise in the IC

track it's totally possible to rise in

that all the way up to product director

level and I think you can do that and

it'll be very successful because you're

going to like Nikki said you're going to

continue to sharpen your skills but at

the same time also recognize that at

some point in time that becomes not

standable afterwards as well but for

majority of the people that's a good

path awesome all right so I'm going to

take a few questions from uh the

audience now so the first question is

from Jack which is how do you see the

relationship between PMs and designers

evolving in the coming years anyone want

to take a crack of that do you say

relationship or ratios or both

relationship yeah we can talk about

ratios if you want this is this I I'll

just take it maybe I'll do a 10c stab at

least in a lot of companies that I'm

observing is designers are becoming

increasingly really strategic and

business savvy and I think that the main

thing from a product manager standpoint

is I mean I remember I don't know 2005

or something like that if you were a PM

you basically did everything you did

everything oh oh you're writing the

marketing copy you're doing this you're

doing all these things oh I'm going to

just pick some code I'm going to do

these things and then there was a time

there where you were even like these

design sense exercises for PMS I don't

believe in them at all like that's why

we hire amazing designers I did an

interview at Facebook once and they're

like we're going to test you on design

sense and my answer cuz I've been in a

company with amazing designers is like

why why would we do this I mean we and

then I didn't get I didn't even get

called back for that thing so so my

point is that like designers are

becoming increasingly business savvy and

I know what s was getting at is that

prototypical Designer like I just want

to ship and everyone's going to come to

the thing but I think that is I think

PMS are going to need to let go of some

of the Reign and like some of their

habits that they developed in certain

organizations it's probably different at

Airbnb but in many organizations PMS

need to let go of the delusion that they

had that design sense and then also

start to acknowledge that these folks

that you're working with can be highly

strategic and need to be looped into the

business perspective as well yeah Nikki

yeah I don't know yeah I that's a really

awesome question honestly I agree with

what you said I think like the

partnership between product and design

is going to continue to get really tight

and designers definitely are becoming

more strategic which is wonderful

honestly allows them to be more

autonomous to make the right decisions I

really do think I personally do think

you should still invest in your own

design sense as a PM like I think it's

easy to be like oh that's their job and

when I actually just think you're G your

critical design feedback at times and

hopefully there's no designers in the

room today but I think it can help it

makes the design better it levels up the

product but so I I think that's still a

skill that you should have but I do

agree that designers are becoming more

and more strategic and in a perfect

world like the team is so good that you

as the PM you can can just kind of sit

in the background and they do their

thing and you're just there to kind of

help Shepherd everyone in the right

direction right that's the ideal

scenario although that often is not what

happens so maybe we'll get there someday

or you get fired because you're not

needed anymore because all you were is

the shepherd

yeah yeah I think less shepherding more

doing I guess but I think the short

answer is I think the industry is very

diverse so it's very hard to give one

answer so if you come from the world of

B2B it's very different if you come from

World of b2c it's very different within

b2c there are lots of verticles but I

think overall the macro Trend I see is

that design becoming more and more

strategic in nature having more and more

seat at the table having more

involvement early on in the ideation

phases of the what the product strategy

itself is not in the design ideation

phase but more of a product ideation

phase as well so that trend is clear I

have met some incredible designers in my

career who are who have product sense

design sense and also business sense

right so I think it's important to

leverage them and last but not the least

I just want to remind everybody PMS CH

to General career right we tend to be

more t-shaped than anything else so I

think it's important to understand

Nikki's Point what a great design sense

mean what a great engineering aspects

mean but just don't be delusional that

you know anything better than those

Specialists would so bring them along at

the right space as you continue to do

the product management that you're doing

yeah I have a very specific example just

in 10 seconds is an amplitude one thing

that Justin is ahead of product and then

our and really empowered our designers

to was actually shaping the end of year

Vision that sort of catapulted us into

the next year and it was just an

incredible thing to watch about how

galvanizing that was for the rest of the

company and how it really it's similar

to what I'm hearing a little bit that's

happening in Airbnb but it it really was

like setting that vision and using those

design skills to make that real and

tangible it didn't mean those were the

prototypes it just meant that they were

actually setting those outcomes and that

Vision was just extremely powerful sorry

yeah go ahead you know as I mentioned I

think it's still a very tough job market

right now so this is question from Nate

uh I'm on a hunt for my next job seems

like the only way to get hired these

days is to either having worked at fan

or you know having worked at similar

companies how does one break through

this wall yeah I can start with that one

I really do I mean I think yes people

value Fang experience and it is very

validating for your resume however I

actually really think an early stage

startup experience is can sometimes be

even more validating honestly because

you get to wear so many different hats

and you really can career climb and

career jump faster at a startup then you

can if you go into a Fang and you kind

of got to work your way up their

traditional ladder that takes a long

time so I wouldn't be too worried about

that honestly I would say find a good

series B startup that looks like they're

on some sort of growth rocket ship and I

would argue that you probably are going

to get better experience and you're

going to grow faster that's slightly

controversial hot take but I know Fang

experience is relevant you could

eventually go to a Fang if you have a

really good startup experience so don't

pigeon hole yourself honestly I think

there's lots of other opportunities that

are not Fang and they're still

thankfully at least now startups are

starting to get funded again I think

we've starting to see that flywheel spin

a little bit faster which is good and so

hopefully there there will be more jobs

in those roles soon anyone else want to

anything on this it's hard out there

that's just the bottom I

think yeah I have some on this I I also

agree with Nikki's advice to find a

growing company not necessarily like the

big companies and find one that matches

your domain and skill set and another

hack is like just like find and reach

out to your hiring manager directly

don't be like another resume in the pile

usually the hiring manager is a little

bit more open to if you come from a

non-traditional background if you have a

really good pitch if you did some

research on their product and have some

feedback they'll at least have a

conversation with you so try that just

one thing you just brought up there

remember the economy didn't affect all

companies in the same way so one thing I

noticed big time was that at amplitude

we were dealing with lots of companies

at different things there's a lot of

these kind of like I'll give an example

something like a Lego or one of these

companies like Lego still was selling

stuff this whole time they were actually

like growing their whole product or the

same thing with like a Home Depot or

these companies now normally you'd look

at that and be like oh I might get stuck

in this like slow moving Enterprise

division but that's not the case in all

of those things like there are roles for

Lego popping up around certain Community

plays that they're doing or certain cool

products that they're building and so

one thing I wouldn't is like don't

completely write off large major brands

that are building now that have a strong

leader in a division that you could

understand their background and maybe

worked at a company that you enjoyed

their products if you see that leader

building out those teams they actually

have a lot more budget now than some

other companies have been impacted in a

different way so I don't overlook the

hidden roles that might be out there

just based on what you might assume of a

big company that works in a certain way

that would be a bit of advice to get F

yeah one last thing I would add and I

think this is one of the places where

our industry has really evolved which is

really exciting and this wasn't the case

when I started in my career like 13

years ago but you can also build

something yourself and ship it give

yourself your own practice you could

build an AI bot you could write a

newsletter you could just launch a thing

and practice putting something out in

the world and having people consume it

and learn from that and I I think with

like no code tools and just generally

with AI there's so many things you can

build so much easier today than you

could have 10 years ago so again like if

you really are struggling to find a PM

rooll somewhere create your own PM rooll

for yourself and ship some stuff and

then eventually get your things out

there and more opportunities will come

yeah I think that's a great

transitioning to our next topic which is

you know there's a big AI wave happening

now and in some ways with AI you know

PMs can actually ship stuff themselves

but you know let's say I'm a PM and I'm

not really working on a ji product right

now like how do I ramp up on space and

get my hands dirty any advice I can go

nights and weekends nights and weekends

now go Niki you go that's good advice

yeah I just give myself like a six hour

week experimentation Budget on all this

stuff because I feel I need to stay

sharp and like I build things and like I

just think it's like some like a muscle

you need to learn about if you don't

have the opportunity and then it's P

paid off at work you know just even like

silly things that we've figured out can

be make a lot more even in enablement in

product operations were're able to use

these things but it was only by staying

sharp and researching Nikki go ahead

yeah no I agree with that I think that's

what I've been doing too honestly I just

been trying to use AI multiple times

throughout my day every day and

surprisingly like have becoming I'm

getting more Adept at using it both

personally and professionally and so I

think like just start using it is a good

place to start also just honestly sign

on to Twitter everyone's if you follow

some people in Tech everyone's sharing

awesome new AI use cases every single

day continue to blow my mind and so

continue to just get out there and try

things and you're going to start

learning more and more yeah and I think

one recommendation in addition to

everything that people have said is that

don't be afraid to go into the

technology itself one of the things I've

learned in my career is that unless I

can buy a million products on Amazon I

still may or may not know how to build a

retail product or how to build a

scalable e-commerce thing but if I can

actually understand how the shipping

Works Logistics Works Etc I can probably

do a lot so my advice would be there's

actually a very good course or a set of

courses from Google that are available

for free that I did like six months ago

myself over the weekend night to John's

example and actually help me understand

how the thing actually works and

actually what are the limitations of it

and what the trajectory looks like so I

would also encourage in addition to what

John and Nikki said please give that a

shot as well free course available over

the week weekend you will learn a lot

from it one thing I'd say without going

into specifics because I can't but even

as a company if if you're an enablement

or a leadership role even creating

sandboxes where people can experiment

this is something we've done internally

and trying to clear any legal hurdles or

other things that might exist to be able

to experiment in a very in a way that

will never impact your customers it's

like you you just little things like

that count because in a corporate

environment that there can actually be

just a lot of things that limit your

ability to do it so even if you wanted

to try to solve a problem internally in

your company if you work at any kind of

bigger company it might be harder than

you think so that's like a very

actionable thing if you're a leader to

you know partner with legal and partner

with any team that's working around this

and create a Sandbox environment where

people don't feel worried or limited or

concerned about what's going to happen

with that data because we obviously

don't want anything like that to happen

so that's something you could do another

tip I actually just shipped A J product

and after shipping I realized hey I

actually don't understand exactly how

this thing was built

so another tip is like if you have

Engineers who are experts at this stuff

just like grab 30 minutes of their time

and make them draw diagrams and make

them walk through like how retrieval

augment generation works or how all this

stuff actually works right and I think

you'll learn a lot and and they love

explaining this stuff to to you so let's

wrap up the AI topic let's maybe you

guys can all share one AI use case

either from work or your personal life

that you use like chat GPT or these

products for like what's your favorite

AI use case I train AI or I make it

believe that it's like eight different

people and then I simulate discussions

between those people to create training

internally so for like conflict

resolution or for thinking about how to

handle crucial conversations what I'll

do is I'll actually and if you follow my

writing you can probably tell I'm doing

this behind the scenes and thinking

about it is you know I'll say you know

you've got this individualistic highly

meritocratic leader who believes that

the whole world roles around them and

you've got this you know communitarian

ex hippie who wants to do this and then

you've got this other person and then

I'll have create training material

quickly by getting different

perspectives of people so then people

can learn how to like navigate different

worldviews in their company so that's

like one specific thing I've done in the

last two weeks you should try it it's

funny nian do you wantan to yeah one of

one of the clever use cases that we've

been using at dualingo is somebody at

dualingo made an okr reviewer so you can

pass your quarterly okrs through it and

it basically gives you feedback on you

know are these measurable are they clear

and you know synthesized in a thoughtful

way Etc and it is has it probably saved

me hours this most time like this last

time of okrs just making sure that I was

saying the right things and that they

made sense and it just felt like I had a

little buddy who was helping me out

which I needed that day so that was

great I've also used it at home

personally I've just said okay here's

what's in my fridge what would you make

for dinner and it will send me full

recipes for things which is is stupidly

helpful that's awesome yeah I think I'll

give two use kids one work I use Chad

GPD style usage for data analysis a lot

so I have a lot of data that comes to me

from all different places and I don't

want to create anything of course I have

a data science awesome data science team

that is a lot but still there's a lot of

stuff over there so that's one handy

Nifty buddy for me if I'm presenting to

the board I use it to create certain

charts if I'm analyzing certain aspects

I can do that the second thing that I

just saw was having a work assistant I'm

forgetting the name of the company if I

do find it I'll post it over here but

what it is you know if you want to know

about our travel policy if you want to

know what the paternity maternity leaves

are you know there's now a company that

has a work buddy you know it's you don't

call up HR anymore you don't have to

look at Wei I forget the name but like

you just type and say hey what is our HR

policy or what is our this thing about

that oh what what is the document that

talks about the 2023 vision for the

company you know he just gets everything

done you know so i f over this an

Incredible use case to Traverse a Trav

toes of information in every company

that you join that's amazing I guess

I'll share one too so I got access to

the recent chat gbt voice feature and on

my drive to work like I I basically talk

to it I upload a bunch of custom

instructions about my life and I talk to

it about everything from weekend trips

to stuff at work to you know like my new

newsletter stuff and yeah it's like it's

actually like feels like a real human

conversation in some ways it listens to

you more than real people so it's a

great experience if you have access you

should try it out all right so why don't

we move to our last topic and we'll do a

Q&A so we talked about how the PM R is

involving we talked about how not

everyone wants to be a manager and you

know how individual PMs can leverage AI

maybe you guys can share some idea about

the kind of the end state of the PM

career right like does everyone destined

to become like a VP or CPO or like other

other paths that people can pursue

anyone want to take a go first yeah I

mean I don't think logistically speaking

it's very hard for every to become a CP

and VP either so I don't that's one but

also more important I don't think

everybody wants to I've met a lot of

amazing product people who actually

don't aspire to do that they have other

agenda goals I'll give you two or three

examples that really inspired me um one

is a gentleman at Facebook without

naming his name incredible product

manager comes from design background and

he loves the craft so much that he's

wants to continue to be deep dive like

hands dirty and continue to be that in

their career rather than removing

themsel away from it the other career

path I see PMS do a lot is becoming

Founders you know it's incredible how

many Founders are xpms as well in in

addition to being ex Engineers or ex

designers that's another path that I've

seen and the adjacent path I've seen

many people do is they go into adjacent

disciplines like U marketing like uh

product operations like uh leading

customer success teams in B2B world you

know so they're like adj adjacencies as

well where I feel like they go on and do

amazing things as well so I don't think

everybody should aspire to be and I

don't think everybody wants to be a CPO

VP but I think there are lots of other

opportunities that they can continue to

pursue and continue to make great career

progress career fulfillingness and also

good dollars you know yeah just to add

on that I mean I think one of the things

that I've always it's always kind of

bummed me out about career ladders

generally is like there's a start and a

finish and and it's a linear path that

you have to travel I feel like somebody

uses this analogy so this is not my

analogy and I don't remember who it was

so sorry feel free to post if you know

if you can find this person but I always

like to think about your career as a

instead of a linear ladder it it's like

a jungle gym or some sort of play set

where you can move around and try

different things and really spend the

time figuring out what uniquely is fun

to you and what you like and then move

your career in that direction um and the

cool thing about product management is

you get exposure to so many different

parts of other people's jobs because

you're in touch with so many

stakeholders every day you can really

figure out what sort of fills up your

cup and what you really like and then

you can invest and lean in that so I I

think not everyone has to be a CPO I

think you could be a director of product

if you're into that you could start a

startup if you're into that you could

write a newsletter if you love to write

like John Etc and so I think just you

doing your own internal reflection and

getting clear on like what do I love

about you know product generally and how

do I take that forward is such a good

exercise that you can invest your time

in yeah I mean just to go back to what I

echoed before there is a sort of

generational component to this I'm

almost 50 and there was a time when just

a general awareness of how things work

and where you can fit into different

orgs and the glue you know this glue

idea or the shepherd idea or anything

and that could be very that could take

you a really long way in your career for

a good two decades and I think now

especially when I see people who are 22

I'm going to be a PM and they're

starting when they're 22 I'm just like

doing the math in my head like what's

gonna like 35 40 like I'm doing the math

in my head like what unless they're you

know so I really would recommend that

you think of your product

career is you should build like you

should think of your key skills and then

maybe build out one or two other really

areas of curiosity and interest for

yourself Rel Nikki said so that might be

really deepening this idea of just

general business management like there's

still roles for that it could be you

know some acknowledgement around

operations or it could be service design

or it could be something like ju just

depending on your age and if you're

closer to my age then maybe closer to 22

you should think about

how you build those extra pillars in

your career to be able to not you you

will not be able to rely on just being

an Uber generalist in this particular

space for too much longer and so it's

important to build those extra pillars

those extra chops like I'm doing this

course on deep Finance in the last like

three weeks that I'm going super deep in

that area I'm just you really have to

see it it's the product of you kind of

cliche but you really have to think

about expanding now if you're 22 and you

bought into this whole PM is going to be

a rocket ship forever and you're going

to make tons of money all the time kind

of thing you've got your own thing on

your hands right so it we're going

through a period where that might not be

the case and it might be harder than you

thought so always really think about you

know getting fleshing out your skill set

is something that I would think very

deeply about yeah I think it's easy to

fall for the LinkedIn title Rat Race you

know like but I think only willing to

take a job the next title up is a very

limited view of things like you know

there there's like compensation there's

culture there's what you're actually

interested in so you got to balance all

of that all right so why don't we take

some more questions from the audience to

wrap up so next question is from pry so

priy ask when interviewing a user what

tactics should we follow to extract the

most insights just ask them about how

good your product is and you know no how

how should you actually talk to your

users don't talk a lot just let them

talk that's the best thing I can think

the the if you're in any interview where

you're talking more than 20% of the time

probably something's going wrong you

should re Steve pacal's book on

interviewing users so don't take our

word for it and then the other thing too

is yeah it's that's the major mistake I

see it's just talking too much and only

knowing how to talk a lot and so you

should give yourself extreme challenges

like what would it take to only talk

five or 10% of the time on a call and

then other things come into place as you

learn more about ux research and

different things you're doing uh Nikki

yeah I see some people in the chat

talking about the mom test book I love

that book that is must read if you're a

product person I would also say go to

chat G BT describe your product that

you're working on and the users you're

going to be talking to and have it write

a little interview guide take some of

the stress out of that having to figure

that out yourself that is one thing I've

tried and I found it really useful and

then agree with John don't talk too much

like let them tell you and you can kind

of you know get whisps of their product

needs just on the way they're describing

how they're using the thing which is

cool maybe next question from Adam how

do you think the core skills needed to

be an amazing Pro leader have evolved

and because the question focuses on

leader product leader not an not

anything else I think it's important to

understand what leadership is I think in

my mind great product leaders are past

the phase of basic product Obsession

what do I mean by that when you're in

product leadership position I think

today it's becoming increasingly more

important for these leaders to be very

much into the detail and understand what

is happening the more you become come

becom in a leadership position again I'm

not defined leadership just by the

number of people you manage but just

assume your scope is increasing you have

a large surface area Etc it becomes

harder in order to stay on top of things

so what I I notice a lot is that the

most successful product leaders are so

intimately familiar with the user are so

intimately familiar with the the

industry that they are in and the

competition that they have that they are

like the best Advocate or what's

happening you know so the myth that you

need to burst is that the more leader

like you become the less handson you are

now actually you have to be more and

more hands on you have to be more and

more deep deeply involved that's one

thing I would say the second thing I

would say is if you are if youire if

you're a product leader just remember

the amplification aspect of your job is

really important what do I mean by that

nobody ever got to mount trest alone you

know you need to have to know how to

lead lead teams they don't have to be a

direct reports they have they could they

don't have to you don't even have to

have any reports but the more important

thing you just got to recognize that

it's a team sport it's not tennis it's

soccer it's it's like basketball it's

not tennis right so for the American

audience who don't know soccer there

it's like basketball not tennis so if

you're a product leader please try to

understand what it takes in human skills

perspective to actually amplify the work

of people around you whe that sales that

it's marketing whether it's design

whatever that is one thing I yeah not to

dispute that but I was saying also

decide what kind of person you want to

be like there there are people who

really Pride themselves on being more of

that leader and and empowering like

three four five six seven eight people

to get into all the details there's more

there's some people who take a lot of

passion with craft and there's some

leaders and and having met a lot of them

and who are very successful at what they

do I think also it's like figure out

what your own personal style is and the

environment you want to be in and learn

how to smell out organizations that will

actually value what you want to do and

where you want to be because nothing's

worse than arriving as like operator you

know operator leader who wants to get

into all the details and you arrive in

an org where people are pretty much like

yeah thanks like we don't need that

right now we need you to do something

else so that that's like one bit of

advice I would give folks yeah I love

that to build on that like as you get

more I think as you move along the

career path and you get more senior in

your career you get really good at

figuring out organizationally how

organizations work and when you're

interviewing especially if you're going

to go into a leadership role somewhere

getting really plugged into how they

work what is important to them what

their principles are things like that

will help you make sure that your own

principles like mesh well and that your

skills are going to be additive and not

subtractive in an environment like that

your number one career skill is how to

smell out orgs we should do a whole

session on that but like Po the poor fit

that last to one two three four years of

your life where you can't necessarily

extract yourself immediately from that

and then the drain on you psychically

and those environments there there

should be that we will do a maven course

just on how to know if you've got a good

fit with the place because the

interviews will never tell

you do you go ahead how do you s that

out like is there a question you can ask

the

person when you're interviewing or after

you get the offer any kind of quick tips

on that yeah so I'm relatively newish to

do a lingo I join actually it's been

about two years now so not that new

anymore feel new still and I spent a lot

of time asking a ton of questions

because I had made a different decision

in the the job that I had before and I

didn't love it and I left really quickly

after I joined and so I asked a lot of

questions on like how do you work how

does how do product decisions get made

what does the product review process

look like who's involved who's deciding

and just really spent a lot lot of time

digging into just the day-to-day

operations of their product organization

and then I also really drilled who was

going to be my manager on his management

skills how he likes to work with his

team his communication style all of

those things and ended up feeling great

about what I heard and joined in then

I'm still here two years later and so I

think it's just really kind of again

figuring out like what you like and what

you don't like in your job and just

making sure that's going to you're going

to lean into the things that you like by

asking the right questions I also think

sorry I feel like I'm a broken record

for chat GPT ask chat GPT those types of

questions what you could be asking when

you're interviewing somewhere because

I'm

sure have some zingers for you to add to

that stock members of the board because

you're eventally working for members of

the board so figure out what agendas

they've brought to all their prior

Investments because you're going to end

up working for their incentives and

their agendas and then uh unless you

have a really strong CEO is going to

push back on it and then I would say

that the other thing too is you could

have a completely chaotic messed up org

but there there can be a boundary of

goodness that you can learn a lot so you

all you're picking your leader right

like you're picking the person that

you're going to work with in your

immediate surroundings so you could do

as much as you want on the culture of

the company but there could be an

enclave of goodness or there could be

everything's good but you just happen to

find The Enclave of nat so goodness

those would be two bits of advice sanin

yeah I mean I was just reflecting as you

guys are speaking about my time at

Instagram coinbase and Airbnb I think

the thing that I tried to look at these

companies was the ensity of the

leadership team for change what do I

mean by that you know when I joined

Airbnb a lot of things were messed up

too you know no companies perect there's

always a problem in all these companies

right so my criteria has always been do

the people in power or the people who

are decision maker what is their

propensity for change because I can come

in and build a new product development

life cycle I can change the spec

template I can change the decision flow

I can change information flow but if the

organization is not willing to change

none of that shit's going to happen

right so more more more likely than not

I'll just advise all of you when you

join a startup I was among the first

employees on Instagram lots of broken

problems lots of that was bad then

it was right right and if I just

evaluated against Facebook I would have

failed that test and I would have never

joined Instagram because Facebook had

this amazing thing this is how things

happen this is how the development life

cyle everything was figured out

Instagram had nothing figured out when I

joined um Airbnb the biggest problem

that I heard from PMS including Nik

others was sonin we don't Empower our

PMS Brian chesy makes the decisions you

know how do we fix that right so there

are all these problems in every company

that I've been at what I look for is hey

if I'm coming in can I change does this

organization has nimbleness to change

does the founder has a nimbleness and

and desire to change or not right so

that's the journey I took and luckily it

turned out to be fine for me yeah one

thing to double on that is that know the

difference between chronic problems and

acute problems s what you said really

resonated is that companies that are

making progress if you ask them like how

often you just work things out it might

not happen in one quarter it might not

happen but they'll say you know what six

months I thought it was terrible six

months ago but we went back and worked

it out it's much more important than

those are the you you want fewer chronic

problems and more acute problems which

will come up all the time and evidence

that you've knocked them out so that's

such a great Point s right and all of

you if you're at a PM role I mean you

yourself know at least half your job is

smells like you don't like it

right but you still do it because it's

important to get the right part the

other 50% that you love get that thing

done so every job every company is not

perfect none of them will be perfect if

you're looking for a perfect one you'll

never find one your job is to come into

an imperfectness and just know that the

animal that you join using an analogy is

just willing to change all right yeah I

think we're out of time here but you

know I want to give a chance for our

panelists to share like if you want to

people want to continue conversation

with you or like where can people find

you on the internet I'll start with I I

I guess John who has like a huge

following already I don't log into that

Twitter thing anymore so I'm not it's

going to take me like two three weeks to

get back to you there but

unfortunately LinkedIn that's probably a

good way to get in touch yeah I just

started posting a lot on social medias

at the real sunshin I only talk real

no no so if you want to

follow the real sunin go follow me on

YouTube Instagram I'm over there and

we'll chat more yeah you can follow me

on LinkedIn I also don't really tweet a

lot unfortunately I would love to be a

an ex person but I'm not so follow me on

LinkedIn I also have a newsletter that I

eventually want to get going again it's

nikki. sstack.com awesome and you know

what I am still on Twitter unfortunately

but on Twitter and my newsletter yeah on

X and my newsletter is yeah Critter

economy. and it's great newsletter so

there you go job thank you thank

[Music]

you