The Origins of Satan

Summary

In this thought-provoking discussion, scholar Elaine Pagels explores the evolution of the figure of Satan from ancient mythology to Christian doctrine. Tracing the character's origins in Jewish, Christian, and even Zoroastrian traditions, Pagels examines the development of Satan as both a symbol of evil and a complex narrative character. She delves into how societal conflicts and political motivations have shaped perceptions of good and evil, cautioning against oversimplification in understanding human behavior and historical events.

Takeaways

• 😈 The concept of Satan has evolved over time, starting from pre-Christian stories about angels and developing into the more recognizable figure associated with evil in later religious traditions.
• 📜 In the Hebrew Bible, the term 'Satan' originally means 'accuser' and does not refer to a singular evil entity but can be a title for anyone who takes on that role.
• 🕊️ The portrayal of Satan as a powerful being in charge of evil forces emerged later, possibly influenced by stories from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the interplay of social and political conflicts of the time.
• 🔗 The development of Satan as an 'Overlord of evil' seems to intensify around the time of the Babylonian exile and may have been influenced by Zoroastrianism's concept of an eternal battle between good and evil.
• 🚷 In the New Testament, Satan is depicted more explicitly as a malevolent force, with the Gospel of John presenting a particularly strong contrast between Jesus, as the embodiment of God's work, and those who oppose him as belonging to Satan.
• 🛡️ The Gospel narratives may have shifted blame for Jesus's crucifixion from the Romans to the Jews as a means of self-preservation for early Christians and to distance themselves from accusations of insurrection.
• 🕊️ The idea that 'the Jews killed Jesus' has roots in the Gospels and has had lasting impacts, contributing to Christian anti-Semitism and legal disabilities for Jews in Christian-dominated societies.
• 🔗 The Book of Revelation further develops the character of Satan, presenting a vision of his ultimate defeat and temporary restraint, followed by a release that signals a final confrontation.
• 💬 The interpretation of biblical figures and events, such as the serpent in the Garden of Eden, varies widely among different religious and philosophical perspectives, including Gnostic views that see the serpent as a positive figure.
• 🧐 The discussion underscores the complexity of using religious texts to understand historical figures like Satan, highlighting the importance of considering social, political, and theological contexts.
• 🌐 The evolution of the Satan figure serves as a reminder of the dangers of oversimplification in conflicts and the potential for religious narratives to influence societal attitudes and behaviors.

Q & A

What is the traditional view of Satan in religious contexts?

Traditionally, Satan is viewed as an invisible being responsible for all evil and suffering in the world, often depicted as a character created in Jewish and Christian traditions, with origins in various ancient mythologies.

What is the origin of the image of Satan as a red devil with horns, pitchfork, and tail?

This image comes from pre-Christian stories about angels, where some angels failed their duties and mated with human women, resulting in demonic, spiritual entities. Over time, these stories evolved and influenced the depiction of Satan in religious narratives.

How does the concept of Satan in the Hebrew Bible differ from later Christian interpretations?

In the Hebrew Bible, there is no character specifically described as an Overlord of evil or a seriously malevolent spiritual being. The concept of Satan as a powerful being in charge of evil forces developed later in Christian tradition.

What is the significance of the term 'Satan' in the Hebrew Bible?

The term 'Satan' in the Hebrew Bible means 'accuser' or 'adversary' and is used as a title for someone who opposes or obstructs others, rather than referring to a singular entity called Satan.

How does the Book of Job portray the character of Satan?

In the Book of Job, Satan is depicted as a member of a spiritual council who has God's permission to test Job. This portrayal does not present Satan as an enemy of God but rather as a servant carrying out God's will.

What role does the concept of Satan play in the development of Christian theology?

The concept of Satan in Christian theology serves as a personification of evil, a counterpoint to God's goodness. It helps to explain the existence of evil in a world created by an omnipotent and benevolent deity.

How does the Gospel of John present the character of Satan?

The Gospel of John presents Satan as the archon of the cosmos, the ruler of the world, and the father of lies. This depiction is more extreme than in other gospels, suggesting a powerful, malevolent being in opposition to God and Jesus.

What is the historical context behind the development of the character of Satan in Christian writings?

The development of the character of Satan in Christian writings is influenced by social and political contexts, including conflicts between Jewish groups, the impact of Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian exile, and the need to distance early Christians from accusations of insurrection against Roman rule.

How does the Book of Revelation contribute to the portrayal of Satan in Christian tradition?

The Book of Revelation portrays Satan as a defeated enemy of God who is chained and thrown into the abyss for a thousand years, symbolizing a final victory over evil. However, it also suggests a temporary release of Satan, indicating an ongoing struggle between good and evil.

What is the relationship between the development of the character of Satan and the emergence of Christian anti-Semitism?

The character of Satan was used in some Christian narratives to shift blame for the crucifixion of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews, which contributed to the emergence of Christian anti-Semitism. This narrative served to protect early Christians from accusations of insurrection and to align them with Roman authorities.

How do Gnostic interpretations of the serpent in the Garden of Eden differ from traditional views?

Gnostic interpretations, such as in the 'Testimony of Truth,' may view the serpent as a figure of truth and wisdom, even identifying it with Jesus, who brings spiritual enlightenment to Adam and Eve, rather than as a deceiver or agent of evil.

Outlines

00:00

😈 The Concept of Satan in Religious Traditions

This paragraph delves into the traditional understanding of Satan as an invisible entity associated with evil and suffering. It discusses the origins of the character in Jewish and Christian traditions, with possible influences from Egyptian and Babylonian mythologies. The paragraph also explores the evolution of Satan's image from a figure in early religious texts to the well-known depiction of a red devil with horns and a pitchfork. The conversation highlights the development of Satan from a character in pre-Christian stories about angels to a more prominent figure in religious narratives, including the story of Jesus and the complex portrayal of Satan in the Book of Job.

05:03

📚 The Evolution of Satan's Role and Imagery

The discussion in this paragraph focuses on the evolution of Satan's role from a title given to an accuser in the Hebrew Bible to a more defined character in later religious texts. It examines the use of the term 'Satan' in the context of the spiritual council in the Book of Job and the court case in Zechariah, where Satan acts with God's permission. The paragraph explores the development of Satan from a simple label to a spiritual entity associated with evil, with references to the Dead Sea Scrolls and the influence of social conflicts and human communities on this evolution.

10:05

🕊️ The Impact of Political and Social Contexts on Satan's Narrative

This paragraph explores the impact of political and social contexts on the narrative around Satan, particularly the influence of the Roman occupation of Judea and the Jewish community's response to it. It discusses the Dead Sea Scrolls and the portrayal of a celestial war between good and evil angels, reflecting the earthly conflicts between different Jewish groups. The paragraph also touches on the role of media bias in shaping narratives and the importance of understanding multiple perspectives, using the example of Ground News as a tool to combat bias.

15:05

📜 The Development of Satan in the New Testament

The conversation in this paragraph centers on the development of Satan's character in the New Testament, where Satan emerges as a more identifiable antagonist opposing Jesus and God. It discusses the portrayal of Satan in the synoptic gospels, where Jesus is tempted by Satan in the desert, and in the Gospel of John, where Satan is described as the ruler of the world and the father of lies. The paragraph also considers the influence of Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian exile on the concept of Satan and the development of monotheism.

20:07

🛡️ The Historical Inaccuracy of Blaming Jews for Jesus's Crucifixion

This paragraph challenges the historical accuracy of the narrative that Jews were responsible for Jesus's crucifixion, as presented in the Gospels. It explains the Roman method of crucifixion and the necessity of a Roman governor's order for such a punishment, arguing that the stories in the Gospels are not consistent with historical facts. The paragraph suggests that the Gospels' depiction of Pontius Pilate as a weak governor who succumbs to the crowd's demands is at odds with historical accounts of Pilate's ruthlessness.

25:08

🚫 The Origin of Christian Anti-Semitism and its Dangers

The discussion in this paragraph addresses the origin of Christian anti-Semitism, which is linked to the narrative that Jews are responsible for Jesus's death. It explores how this narrative developed as a defense mechanism for early Christians to distance themselves from accusations of insurrection against the Roman government. The paragraph highlights the dangers of this narrative, which became legally enforced disabilities against Jews in the 4th century and persisted through the Middle Ages, leading to severe persecution and violence.

30:12

🔗 The Connection Between Satan and the Political Climate of the Time

This paragraph ties the character of Satan to the political climate of the time, suggesting that the portrayal of Satan as a powerful entity with control over the world reflects the perception of Rome's rule as oppressive and demonic. It discusses how the Gospel of John presents Satan as the archon of the cosmos and how this depiction serves the narrative of Jesus's mission to overcome the evil force ruling the world. The paragraph also touches on the lack of exorcism stories in John's gospel, unlike the synoptic gospels, and the unique portrayal of Satan's influence over Judas Iscariot.

35:13

📖 The Book of Revelation and the Final Battle with Satan

The conversation in this paragraph turns to the Book of Revelation, which presents a vision of the final battle with Satan. It describes the imagery of an angel chaining Satan for a thousand years and then releasing him for a short period. The paragraph explores the significance of this vision, which reflects the belief in a temporary victory over evil before its ultimate defeat with the return of the Messiah.

40:14

💬 The Complexity of Satan's Character and its Impact on Perceptions of Good and Evil

In this final paragraph, the discussion concludes with a reflection on the complexity of Satan's character and its impact on how people perceive good and evil. It emphasizes the importance of avoiding simplistic labeling of conflicts and individuals as purely good or evil, and instead calls for a more nuanced understanding of social and political issues. The paragraph highlights the potential dangers of stereotyping and hostility that can arise from such polarized views.

Keywords

💡Satan

Satan is traditionally considered an invisible being responsible for all evil and suffering in the world, with origins traced back to Jewish and Christian traditions. In the video, Satan's evolution from a character in religious texts to a symbol of evil is explored, highlighting the different interpretations and roles he plays across various scriptures, including being an accuser in the Hebrew Bible and a malevolent spiritual being in later Christian narratives.

💡Accuser

The term 'accuser' is used to describe the original role of Satan in the Hebrew Bible, where it is not a singular entity but a title that can be given to someone who obstructs or blocks others. In the video, it is explained that the word 'Satan' itself means 'accuser' in Hebrew, and it is used in contexts like the Book of Job, where Satan is part of God's spiritual council and operates with God's permission.

💡Apocalyptic

The apocalyptic theme in the video refers to the end times and the ultimate battle between good and evil. It is seen in the New Testament's Book of Revelation, where Satan is depicted as a dragon who is eventually chained and thrown into the abyss. This theme is significant in the development of Christian eschatology and is tied to the belief in the final victory of good over evil.

💡Evil

Evil is a central concept in the video, discussing its personification in the figure of Satan and its representation in human actions. The script explores the idea that labeling people or groups as evil can lead to stereotyping and hostility, suggesting a more nuanced understanding of conflict and human nature.

💡Gnostic Gospels

The Gnostic Gospels, such as the 'Testimony of Truth,' offer alternative views on traditional biblical narratives, including the role of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. In the video, it is mentioned that in some Gnostic interpretations, the serpent represents a force of knowledge and liberation, contrasting with the traditional view of the serpent as a deceiver.

💡Anti-Semitism

Anti-Semitism in the video is discussed in the context of Christian history, where the narrative that 'the Jews killed Jesus' has been used to justify legal disabilities and violence against Jewish people. The script highlights the origins of this narrative in the New Testament and its perpetuation through the centuries, emphasizing the negative impact on Jewish communities.

💡Polarization

Polarization refers to the division of people into opposing groups, often labeled as good and evil. The video criticizes this simplistic view of conflict, arguing that it can exacerbate tensions and misunderstandings. The discussion emphasizes the complexity of human nature and the need for a more nuanced approach to social and political issues.

💡Exodus

The Exodus is mentioned in the context of Jewish mythology and the development of religious narratives. It is an event in the Hebrew Bible where the Israelites are led out of Egypt by Moses, symbolizing liberation from oppression. The video uses this as an example of how stories evolve and take on different meanings in various religious traditions.

💡Zoroastrianism

Zoroastrianism is an ancient Persian religion that features a dualistic cosmology of good and evil. The video suggests that the Jewish exile in Babylon may have been influenced by Zoroastrian beliefs, possibly contributing to the development of the concept of Satan as a malevolent spiritual being in opposition to God.

💡Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate is a historical figure and the Roman governor of Judea during the time of Jesus. In the video, Pilate is discussed in relation to the crucifixion of Jesus and the subsequent Christian narratives that blame the Jews for Jesus's death, highlighting the historical inaccuracies and the political motivations behind these stories.

💡Manifesto

In the context of the video, a 'manifesto' refers to the underlying message or ideology of a religious text, such as the Gospels. The script suggests that the Gospels serve not only as historical accounts but also as manifestos for the early Christian movement, conveying a particular worldview and understanding of Jesus's mission and the battle against evil.

Highlights

Satan is traditionally considered an invisible being responsible for all evil and suffering in the world, with roots in Jewish and Christian traditions.

The concept of Satan as a spiritual being with a bad reputation has evolved over time, influenced by pre-Christian stories about angels and the idea of fallen angels.

In the Hebrew Bible, there is no character of an Overlord of evil or a seriously malevolent spiritual being, suggesting a later development of the Satan figure.

The development of Satan as a character in Christian tradition shows him as both a victim of divine punishment and a powerful being overseeing the punishment of other sinners.

The word 'Satan' means 'accuser' in Hebrew and was a title that could be given to someone, rather than referring to a singular entity.

The Book of Job and Zechariah present Satan as part of God's spiritual council, acting with God's permission rather than as an enemy of God.

The Dead Sea Scrolls reflect the belief in a war in heaven between good angels and those who turned away from God, influencing the developing concept of Satan.

The Gospel of John presents a more explicit depiction of Satan as a malevolent spiritual being in opposition to Jesus and God.

The New Testament's portrayal of Jesus being tempted by Satan in the desert and the idea of Satan as the father of lies may have been influenced by earlier Jewish and Zoroastrian concepts.

The Gospel of John suggests that anyone who opposes Jesus or denies he is the Son of God belongs to Satan, reflecting a stark division between good and evil.

The shift of blame for Jesus's death from the Romans to the Jews in the Gospel narratives may be an attempt to distance Jesus's followers from accusations of insurrection.

The Gospels' depiction of Pontius Pilate as a weak governor acquiescing to the Jews' demands for Jesus's crucifixion contradicts historical accounts of Pilate's ruthlessness.

The Book of Revelation presents a vision of the final victory over Satan, who is chained and thrown into the abyss, though he will eventually be released.

The Gnostic Gospel of the Testimony of Truth offers a revolutionary view of the serpent in the Garden of Eden, suggesting it was a figure of truth rather than deception.

The evolution of the Satan figure in religious texts reflects social and political conflicts, as well as theological developments over time.

The discussion highlights the complexity of interpreting religious texts and the dangers of oversimplifying conflicts by labeling one side as good and the other as evil.

Transcripts

Ela pagels welcome back to the show

thank you good to be here Alex good to

see you who is

Satan what a great

question Satan

is traditionally thought to be an

invisible being responsible for all evil

and suffering in the

world uh actually a character

created as far as I could tell in Jewish

and Christian tradition although he have

had forerunners in sort of Bad actors in

Egyptian mythology Babylonian mythology

there are you know Gods who do Very Bad

Things um he's not a God but he is seen

as a spiritual being with a bad

reputation and a lot of people will have

an image of the Red Devil with the horns

and the Pitchfork and the big tail what

is what is that and where does that come

from

well when I first thought about the

topic of Satan I thought of it as kind

of a joke you know the a little cartoon

figure like the one you

mentioned but when I I started to think

why is why is that figure really part of

the way Christians talk about the story

of Jesus the way Muslims talk and even

now Jews speak about Satan much more

than they used to where did that come

from and I real realized that it it

comes from pre-christian stories about

angels and God creates the god of Israel

creates everything good presumably and

all of the Angels were good so to speak

if you ask St

Augustine but but even in the Hebrew

Bible there's a story about how some of

the Angels who were charged with

protecting the Earth failed their Duty

and they went down

and uh

were desired human women the Angels were

all masculine in in Greek myth I'm sorry

in well not only Greek mythology but in

Jewish mythology the angels are all have

male names and the story in Genesis 6

says that there were some of these sons

of God as they're called benol who sons

of God can either refer to Angels or

humans but often refers to Angels some

of the sons of God fell in love with

human women desired them and came down

to earth and mated with them and the

results of those hybrid unions between

humans and Spiritual Beings were sort of

demonic kind of spiritual

entities and and that's part of the

story in Genesis very strange

story but later around the time of the

of Jesus and before some

some Jewish thinkers turned it into a

much grander

story yeah I mean that idea of Satan as

some kind of example of a foolen angel

is quite common in the Christian

tradition and yet it's difficult to

pinpoint exactly where that comes from I

mean Satan is seen by some as the sort

of Overlord of the underworld it's like

he's in charge of the place and he's

punishing Sinners but on other accounts

he himself is someone that's being

punished by God for sin and there's

imagery in the Bible of him being

chained up for a thousand years and and

thrown into the abyss and so perhaps you

can help us clarify here you know is

Satan this victim of punishment of

divine punishment for his sins or is he

some kind of powerful being that

oversees the punishment of other Sinners

well actually the answer to that is yes

he is both I mean in Christian tradition

he's had 2,000 years to be a character

originally as I said it comes from

Genesis 1 he's one of the Angelic beings

who does something wrong and then is

gives gives rise to evil forces on the

earth Genesis six right and but what I

discovered and this was a surprise to me

having been raised in nominally

Christian tradition to realize that in

the Hebrew Bible there is no such

character as an Overlord of evil or even

a

a seriously malevolent spiritual being

just not there even in the Book of Job

people remember that it talks about the

Lord talks to Satan and the Satan says

have you considered my servant job and

so forth they have a quarrel and because

of Satan's accusation of job the Lord

allows the Satan to punish job and make

him suffer just to see what he'll do but

he's not there an enemy of God when I

started to look at this I was surprised

to see nothing in the Hebrew Bible

suggests that God has a spiritual enemy

up in heaven it's only after the the

Hebrew Bible is written that Jews and

then later Christians develop that

character into what you said uh a great

Overlord of the forces of evil yeah the

development of Satan and the concept of

Satan is fascinating to me you have a

book called the origin of Satan which

I'll I'll link down in the description

um the earliest sort of well some some

of some of the points at which the word

Satan is used I mean the word Satan

means something like accuser it can mean

something like

accuser it it's it's comes from a verb

meaning to obstruct to block someone and

so in in Hebrew you have the word at one

point that one of the Angels uh blocked

balum that's in Numbers

22 um put up an obstacle in his way

because it comes from the word to

obstruct or to block and later the the

Greek word diabos devil comes from the

word of uh it means somebody who throws

something at you so it's like you're

walking along somebody throws a huge

obstacle right in front of you and and

you know and frustrates you and that's

that's what the Satan can do even as a

servant of God um but that's not the

picture you get in later

sources no Satan I mean the the word

Satan meaning something like accuser is

used uh in the Hebrew Bible to refer to

uh like a person that is not to a

singular entity called Satan or the

Satan but rather it's a title that can

be given to somebody if they are an

accuser so it's used in like first

Samuel for example but then you do get

this development there are two points

where you get reference to the Satan

that is not Satan like somebody who's

given the label of an accuser but

someone who is identified as the Satan

the accuser that's who they are and one

of those you've already mentioned is the

Book of Job where God sort of has this

spiritual Council who he's like

discussing things with and the Satan the

accuser is one of the members of the

spiritual Council and so even in this

story of you Satan taking power over job

and ruining his life it doesn't seem

like he's doing it out of some anger

towards God or something he's doing it

with God's permission as if he's part of

the council uh the Satan is also

referenced in Zechariah 3 uh where Satan

is kind of like a a judge in a in a sort

of strange court case right we could

call him Devil's

Advocate yeah because that that's who he

is and the court that you mentioned

quite rightly is a court of Spiritual

Beings that those are angels the Ben

Elohim the sons of God are angels and

they're all clustered around God they

are his courtiers they do his bidding

they fight his Wars for him and they do

what he tells them and the Satan in the

Book of Job as you said he can't act on

his own he's he has to request

permission from God to do everything he

does to do and then job gets it all back

as you know at the end of the story so

he's not really against God he's one of

the Servants of God and so we have this

idea of a character who seems to be the

father of some kind of malevolence I

mean he's the one given the task to to

upset job's life but it's sort of done

under God's command and I was I was

reading about this and the story of job

and the story of Zechariah are written

sort of during or after the Babylonian

exile and there's some suggestion that

it's around this time that we see this

devel velopment of Satan from being a

simple label of accuser into more of a a

spiritual entity that is the father of

evil is that right it is and and where

you really find it developed is in the

Dead Sea Scrolls because as in the

Zachariah story you

mentioned what it comes out of I think

are conflicts in the human

Community when I first was trying to

study where did Satan come from I was

reading some books by Jeffrey Burton

Russell who's a professor University of

California who actually wrote five books

on the subject and in one of the books

he he started by saying the figure of

Satan has nothing to do with social

history and I stopped there and I

thought now that is such a wrong

statement and frankly such a stupid one

that I'm going to look for the social

history of Satan what does it mean to

tell stories like the ones you mentioned

Alex

what does it mean for the human

Community because you're not just

talking about conflict up there with God

and Satan having a battle in the

stratosphere it

also reflects down here on Earth there's

a conflict between two

groups your group is in inspired by

Satan my group is inspired by God and

that's the story from which it comes so

when groups of Jews clash in Zechariah

about the Exile and what to do the story

of Satan comes

up and when the people of the Dead Sea

Under Roman occupation of Judea say we

can't live under domination of these

Roman emperors and their armies we

refuse to allow them to control our

country as if it were their satellite so

we're going out in the desert we're

going to start a new community

that is pure that has nothing to do with

the Jerusalem community in Jerusalem

that's collaborating with the Enemy

namely the Romans and so in the Dead Sea

Scrolls they talk about a war in heaven

between the good Angels who are loyal to

God and the angels who turn away from

God and actually seduce the sons of God

which means the human uh God's human

uh Community which are the people of

Israel the men of Israel in particular

so they they want to say we the

community that has seceded from the

Roman population I'm sorry from the

Jewish population controlled by Rome we

out in the desert who have nothing to do

with that we are God's people but but

the evil power has seduced the whole

rest of the Jewish community and they're

cooperating with the Romans

and therefore they have gone over to the

dark side and they serve the Satan they

call them they call them Baul which

means I think it is power of Darkness I

have to check that or Lord of the Flies

there's many names for the evil one um

but and he's called Prince of Darkness

so he has a a number of names but he has

many underlings who are the other Angels

who have turned away from God and that's

the picture you get yet in the Dead Sea

Scrolls before the time of Jesus can you

tell us before we move on to the Jesus

element uh what are the Dead Sea Scrolls

I don't think I don't think I've done an

episode on them so it would be uh useful

for those who who don't

know the deadsy scrolls are consist of a

of a of a

library of a of a devout religious

community of Jews developed about a 100

bcee that's after the Romans basically

took

over Judea and ruled it in their way and

even appointed the chief priest at

Jerusalem

and put Jewish satellite Kings in power

Herod the Great was one of them he was

Jewish but he's like the Eastern

European provinces under under Russia

right he's one of them but he's totally

controlled controlled by the the the

massive outside government Rome and

so uh it was those people who were

preoccupied with conflict between good

and evil it was both down on Earth

between us in the sacred Community which

has nothing to do with the Romans and

those other Jews who are collaborating

with Rome so that's that's what it means

on Earth

when they're picturing this scene in

heaven with a greatly elaborated picture

of the forces of evil contending against

God we'll get back to ELA pagels in just

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with that said back to elame pagels well

there's a particular text amongst the

Dead Sea Scrolls called The Book of

Enoch which as far as I'm aware I

haven't read it uh details this the kind

of thing you're talking about in in

extreme detail I mean it's a it's it's a

long text where we really begin to see

this idea of the Demonic and the Satan

that we know and hate today uh start to

develop right

yes and it's interesting you mention

that because the idea among Jewish

groups of the time is that there's only

one

nation that has a quality of Holiness to

God and that is Israel so Gentiles don't

even count they are not in a spiritual

battle they are

simply devoid of spiritual anything they

worship false god

Gods Egyptians Babylonians Romans you

name them they're all not even in the

running the only people who matter are

the sons of God and that is as I said it

can be a term either for Spiritual

Beings or for the human beings who who

are on the side of

God and so Enoch and the others

basically say well yes there were evil

angels that fell you can read about them

in Genesis 6 just a little episode

but now they've taken over Israel

they're trying to seduce Israel they are

targeting God's people and

they're delivering many of God's people

over to the dark

side so we're seeing this development

and I want to track this very plainly

for people listening we begin with this

title Satan accuser which can be applied

to people and is applied to various

people throughout the Hebrew Bible and

then on two occasions you end up with ha

Satan or the Satan which is a sort of

specific character in The Book of Job

the book of Zechariah but here this this

Satan is not quite like the evil

Overlord Satan it's sort of part of

God's Council in in in some sort of

strange form

um in some apocryphal literature here

we're beginning to see a more sort of

traditional satanic figure and demonic

realm emerge

then we get to the development of the

New Testament Cannon we get the figure

of Jesus and we get people beginning to

write a whole new series of scripture

and suddenly Satan is cropping up

everywhere right if you read the New

Testament three of the gospels the

synoptic gospels right near the

beginning have Jesus being tempted

explicitly by Satan in the desert John

mentions Satan by name three times as

sort of fulfilling specific tasks in the

gospels so suddenly Satan appears in

full force as this identifiable

character and Mastermind of evil and in

opposition to Jesus and and to God so

what causes this sudden development of

the character of Satan well there was a

precedent because when that sacred

community of Jews Like a kind of

Monastery went out into the desert to

oppose the Jews collaborating with Rome

they already had a character of The

Prince of Darkness the Satan the ba who

had

many many demonic forces underneath him

like an army of evil

beings and so that really preceded Jesus

and I think the story of Jesus uh is

very much shaped by what you see in the

Dead Sea schools the idea that some

people members of Israel men primarily

are under the power of the spirit of God

and worship the right God

and others in Israel are on the side of

Satan so

Jesus the story of John the Baptist many

people think he was a member of the Dead

Sea Scrolls or at least I'm sorry he was

a member of the of the community that

created the Dead Sea Scrolls and had a

whole sacred library with many books

that talk about satanic beings

fighting God people and God's

spirit um John the Baptist was probably

one of them because he was talking the

language of the end of time saying well

evil is taken over the world uh God is

about to take it back the end of time is

coming he's going to judge all the evil

people and you better be on God's side

you better be baptized purified from

your sins and ready to meet your God

right that's John the Baptist message

and the story of Mark first introducing

Jesus says he was among the the the

Jewish group who came out listened to

this preacher in the wilderness saying

better watch out the end time is coming

God is going to judge the world the

Judgment Day is near and Jesus goes out

with

others to be baptized purified of

sins uh in the Jordan River and then uh

is presumably under the spirit of God so

his follow s had the same kind of

cosmology and it as you see it works on

the ground here where the humans live

and it's same as what's up

there so let's talk about that uh

although first I wanted to ask if you

give any Credence to the idea that I

mean we we mentioned that this idea of

the Satan began to emerge around the

time of the Babylonian exile Babylon

being not too far from Iran which will

have had a zoroastrian religion which

yes has an idea of of an eternal battle

between good and evil some have

suggested that whilst the Jews are

exiled in Babylon they come into contact

with

Zoroastrianism and it's this influence

that helps to develop the character of

Satan do you think there's any Credence

to be given to that theory oh I think

it's quite likely I mean Babylonian I

mean that mythology um zoroastrian you

know it's it's the power of the good God

against our who is an evil force and the

Egyptians have a similar uh idea of an

evil force against the right Gods so

there's precedent there's a book by a

British scholar called the old enemy uh

the old fory a literary study of the

precedents to the Hebrew idea yes and he

does a very good for that yeah I had a

wonderful episode not long ago on the

history of Yahweh as a sort of Desert

Storm God turning into the the god of

Israel and the god of Christianity and

uh Dr Justin Sledge who was my guest

suggested that the Babylonian exile was

also partially responsible for the

development of monotheism he said that

you know you had this localized god of

the temple and the Babylonian exile

explodes this because there's there's no

more sort of local temple to go to and

so you either have to get rid of your

God or say that your God is this

omnipresent being that's not a localized

agent and so you you end up with the

development of mon ISM interestingly

here it seems that around the same time

perhaps due to the zoroastrian influence

we also begin to get the origin of Satan

so it's like Yahweh and Satan as these

opposing Spiritual Beings in the Jewish

tradition seem to emerge around the time

of of Babylon what a significant event

that was in the history of the religious

tradition absolutely I mean it it it

transformed the Jewish community and

that's when you see this kind of

conflict and part of the conflict on the

Jewish side is how do we respond to the

Babylonian conf ERS do we fight them or

do we cooperate with them and that's the

same tradition with which they came into

Roman

occupation so let's talk about the New

Testament then uh which we were sort of

skirting around the edges of a second

ago um as I as I said the Gospel of John

only mentions Satan three times by name

uh the first of these is where Jesus is

arguing with some of his Jewish

opponents and he says to them that that

they're not children of Abraham they're

Children of the devil this is where the

mention of of the Satan appears and this

Satan is described as a murderer from

the beginning and the father of lies and

Jesus says here to his opponents you are

the children of the devil not the

children of Abraham what did he

mean well it's very shocking the Gospel

of John is the most extreme of the four

gospels um in this regard it suggest

that Jesus comes from God and does the

work of God and everyone who opposes him

or who

denies that he is the only son of God uh

belongs to Satan any traditional Jew who

doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah

and actually as God in

person God incarnate belongs to Satan

you see this

today with Christians who follow the

Gospel of John that if you believe in

Jesus as the Son of God you're saved

you're right you're on the side of God

if you don't you're damned to Eternal

darkness and suffering that's very

extreme but that's where this tradition

takes it and what do you think has been

the the impact of verses like this in

the development of religious traditions

I think it's very

unfortunate because many people

today and this in also includes people

who are

secular often see the world see for

example

politics from the point of view of

there's a good side and an evil side we

don't have two sides struggling for

territory or power simply against one

another we

see good and evil I'm talking American

politics today and politics in many

countries and it sort of emerges out of

this view of the world that good and

evil are fighting a nearly equal battle

up in heaven now good will Edge it out

that's the apocalyptic story good will

win in the end but in the meantime evil

forces may take over

and so whether you're talking about

Adolf Hitler whether you're talking

about people

today um it's the scenario of Good and

Evil that plays very strongly in

political life in countries that are

primarily

Christian uh or Jewish or

Muslim and Jesus says here in the Gospel

of John that this devil this Satan is a

murderer from the beginning the father

of Lies seeming to lean into this

concept of Satan as this malevolent

spiritual being as opposed to some kind

of subservient member of God's Council

suddenly in in the Gospel of John we've

got a very explicit depiction of the of

the Satan that we that we'd recognize

today right absolutely and it probably

is re referring to the story of Cain and

Abel the first evil Act is the brother

kills his brother right he's a murderer

from the beginning and that's probably

saying the first murder was evidence

that from the beginning of time not from

the beginning of of this

Century uh Jesus would have said but

from the beginning of time the Gospel of

John suggests there was always uh almost

an equal force and that looks very much

like the

Babylonian uh vision of Supernatural

power yes superatural conf there's

another mention of uh Satan in John

chapter 12 where he's described as the

archon of the cosmos which is kind of

interesting yes

um it means literally the ruler of the

world when Jesus says in John I see the

ruler of the world is coming he's

substituting what you find in the other

gospels for Jesus saying in the Garden

of Gethsemane I see Judas

coming so Judas there is cast in The

Gospel of John as

Satan's Satan in

person well that's the that's the third

mention of Satan in the Gospel of John

is where the author of John specifically

says that when Judas betrays Jesus it's

because Satan enters Judas and that's

what causes him to to betray Jesus Satan

enters him right after the supper when

and he says Jesus says go out and do

what you have to do knowing of course

that he's going to betray Jesus

and then finally the last mention right

is when he speaks with pilate were you

going to bring that one up no no tell me

Well Jesus at his trial according the

way John tells it which

is completely counterfactual I must have

say he says Jesus actually gives the

sentence pilate never does Jesus

says uh pilate is questioning him and

Jesus says no the one who turned me over

those who turn me over to you have the

greater sin who do you blame for the

death of

Jesus the

Jews the Jews are crying for the death

of Jesus that is the story you get in

Matthew and you get it in John and what

startled me when I began to work on this

the history of Christianity is to

realize that is an impossible story

historically that the Jews were

responsible for the death of Jesus that

could not have happened tell us

why

because how do you crucify somebody Alex

you have to have an army you have to

have equipment you have to have the men

who know how to do it this is a

technique that was developed by the

Romans as the worst possible punishment

for slaves and people in Revolution

against Rome in subordinate people

Romans could not stand in subordination

order was everything in the Roman Empire

and so anybody who protested against the

Roman Empire was condemned to the worst

possible death which is

crucifixion so crucifixion was Radical

extreme form of death the only person in

Judea the now captured

province Roman province where the Jewish

people lived was the

governor and you could not crucify

anybody unless the governor had given

the

order but the stories about Jesus

suggest that the governor never ordered

his

crucifixion that cannot have happened

any historian of Rome Fergus Miller

professor at Oxford University has

said The only person who can give the

order would be the governor of of Rome

so Jesus was crucified and there are

witnesses both Roman and Jewish at the

time who say yes and the person who gave

the order of course was the governor

pilot tacitus says that and the Jewish

historians Josephus says that that's

a I was going to say that's a known

fact because if you look at the famous

book by military historian GCS Brandon

Jesus and the zealots he begins by

saying there's really only one

fact which we can know for sure about

the story of Jesus and that is that he

was crucified by the Romans as a rebel

against their governor their their

government in Judea that's a fact as

close as you can get to any fact in the

New Testament but that's the fact that

is contradicted by the Gospel of John

and the gospel of Matthew and that's

what started me so much when I was

looking at how that

counterfactual story plays out on the

ground politically and socially so why

then why the inclusion of this story

which uh at least in your opinion is so

blatantly

ahistorical the reason for

that why followers of Jesus

suggested that if you read the four

gospels pilate never sentences Jesus in

fact every writer avoids the point where

the sentence would have to be

given if you read the gospels who

sentenced Jesus to death the chief

priests at a trial that probably never

took

place and pilate is this weak little guy

who's saying wait a minute wait a minute

I I think this man is innocent

he tries in Luke three times to say

Jesus is innocent I don't want to

crucify him in Mark he saysi going to

let him off he's not

guilty what is going on here and in

Matthew he tries very hard to defend

you in in John he becomes a philosopher

talking to Jesus with great

respect and so who's responsible for the

death of Jesus I mean pilot pilot asks

for the balll of water to to wash

I I I I have nothing to do with this

with this righteous man right he says

he's a righteous

man um but he never condemns Jesus in

any of the four gospels and all of them

have the Jews outside the residence of

pilate are saying crucify him crucify

crucify and pilate is this weak little

guy who just can't stand up to what is

right and he finally says I give up I

mean you do it I wash my hands of

it that's the story that in the gospels

why

because I was trying to figure that out

why and the and the answer I think has

to do with the fact that if you Alex are

a follower of Jesus of

Nazareth and he was crucified for

sedition against our government you

probably have the same politics if you

are a follower of Bin Laden

we know what your politics are no matter

what you say you can deny it but we know

you and this is like saying he's a

follower of Bin Laden he's he's a

traitor to the government um he his

followers can say we're not traitors but

they must be their Insurrection is just

like their leader Jesus so what happened

after the death of Jesus when there was

the Roman War and the Roman and there

was a huge Jewish Revolution against

Rome in the name of God and our common

Liberty

the Romans came in after four

years utterly devastated Judea they

burned the center of Jerusalem to the

ground tore down the temple which you

see today and Jerusalem thrown to the

ground these huge Stones they destroyed

Jerusalem as a Jewish stronghold and

they set up a Roman camp in its

place

and when they found followers of Jesus

one of them was his brother

James one of them was Peter an

outstanding uh an

outspoken follower of Jesus who was

preaching about Jesus in Rome when they

find Paul who's preaching about Jesus in

in

Syria they crucify Peter uh Paul is

beheaded and James is stoned to death

followers of Jesus are in danger because

they are assumed to

be of the same Politics as Jesus namely

insurrectionists so how if you're a

follower of Jesus you defend yourself I

don't think he was an insurrectionist he

never tried to raise an army there's

very little evidence of

weapons but how do you defend yourself

if if people assume that that's who you

are you say

well okay he was crucified and Roman

soldiers did it and we know that because

nobody else had the equipment or if Jews

were going to kill someone they'd ston

him to death that was

traditional they didn't have equipment

to crucify people they didn't know how

to do it it's a Roman

crucifixion but why was it done because

the Jews insisted because they

overpowered the governor they talked him

into it they forced his hand right he

just couldn't stand up to the

crowds and so that's the story that the

that the followers of Jesus tell they

say look it was a big mistake that trial

he the governor tried tried to let him

off it was the Jews who

insisted and they're the people

responsible for the death of Jesus not

the Romans because we knew he was

innocent all along this is when they're

preaching the Gospel of Jesus to Greek

and Roman crowds 40 or 50 years after

Jesus had been killed so it's Shifting

the blame for Jesus's death from the

Romans to the Jews as a way to quell

concerns about the followers of Jesus

being

against the

government and to save their own lives

to save their own lives

and um and and they were of course

mostly Jewish so they could be suspected

of

insurrection no

so is this something like the beginning

in your view of Christian anti-Semitism

this this idea of the Jews as the

condemnable population who are really

responsible for the death of Christ not

the Romans uh do you think this is where

this idea originates absolutely it is

and so I was teaching the origin of

Christianity uh recently and and one of

the students who said I was in your

class I didn't know because we had about

nearly 300 students in the class and I

said oh so what surprised you because

his background was Jewish he said that

the Jews didn't kill

Jesus and I said you believe that he

said yes I I've heard that my whole

life and I was shocked because he was in

a very educated family but this is a

very common thing right that the Jews

killed Jesus this has been said by

Christians it's part of the Christian

story it's part of the box beam liner

Mass um and the St Matthew passion it's

the way Christianity tells its

story and the question then would be

how do you know that that's not what

really happened right how does Brandon

know that that is not true well he says

because we know Roman law and Fergus

Miller says impossible you can't crucify

without the governor now how do we know

the governor didn't crucify Jesus um the

reason is oh did is that the gospel's

picture pilot for their own

purpose as this very weak man right he

just can't stand up to crowds he just

gives in you know the story we all know

the

story but that's not who Pilate

was when you read the two most informed

Jewish writers of the first century one

of them a contemporary of Jesus his name

is Pho of

Alexandria he's from a highly educated

family his nephew is the ethnarch of

Egypt that is his Jewish nephew in spite

of the fact that he's jewi Jewish is

working hand and glove with the with the

Roman who is the the head of Egypt for

Rome and the the agent of the of the

person ruling Rome for Egypt is a Jewish

young man who is a cousin of Josephus

who writes a book called The Jewish War

very detailed study of the first century

it's a huge

book Josephus was

actually um a general in the Jewish War

he fought against Rome he was put in

prison for fighting against Rome and

then he became trusted by the Roman

general Titus for helping the Romans

after he was captured and he was freed

and he wrote a famous book called The

Jewish War and the Jewish Antiquities to

try to persuade Romans after the war

that Jews were an ancient and educated

and highly moral and philosophic people

and why he ended up with the with the

romanized name flavus Josephus because

he becomes yes accepted into the into

the Roman

household and he was honored by the

Romans he was given a villa in Rome um

and he wrote this book to speak about

the glory of his people so that Gentiles

would get the point I started speaking

about pho of Alexandria who a little

younger than Joseph cus was a

contemporary of Jesus and he

was the most prominent representative of

the Jewish community in Alexandria which

they say consisted of about a quarter of

the city of Alexandria when it was the

capital of Egypt just as there were they

say a quarter of Rome was Jewish uh many

Jews lived in Rome and many in

Alexandria but when the alexandrian Jews

wanted to write a petition and get it to

the emperor on behalf of the community

in Egypt they sent Josephus as head of

the delegation of distinguished men to

present their case to the emperor and

Philo wrote a famous document he wrote a

great deal was a very devout

Jew wrote many books about Genesis and

so forth but he also wrote about his

delegation to the emperor of Rome who at

that time was uh

Emperor was

Claudius it was Claudius that he went to

see but he he writes in

his uh account of his Embassy to Rome

that that pontious pilate was known to

be brutal

cruel um he he exploited people he

everybody the Jews hated him he says he

often did frequent executions with no

trial he was absolutely hated by the

Jewish people because he was a ruthless

and horrible Emperor and finally he was

recalled by Emperor Tiberius and

probably told to commit suicide because

the Jewish Community hated him so much

that man was

ruthless he didn't

bother checking out if a somebody

accused a Jew accused of sedition was

guilty it is more what you'd see in the

Life of Brian he just said oh yeah

another one of those guys

just crucify him he crucified thousands

of people there were when you see this

depiction then of pilate in the gospels

being this very reticent no no this

man's innocent sort of battling with the

idea literally washing his hands at one

point uh washing his hands of the of the

crime this seems to be out of accord

with our extra biblical account of who

pilot was it's completely at odds with

anything we know historically about

pilot in fact that act of washing hands

to demonstrate innocence is a Jewish

ritual Romans didn't do that so the

whole story if you ask Roman historian

Fergus Miller at Oxford I think former

professor at Oxford at this point I

don't know whether he's still

teaching um if you ask anyone who knows

Roman

history um Brandon in his book Jesus and

this Zealot makes this point very

powerfully uh the pilot you see in the

gospels is not the pilot who was ruling

Judea at the time of

Jesus

so help me tie this back into the idea

of Satan because we sort of started with

Satan and talking about Satan as this

character in the New Testament who's

become this demonic figure uh and now

we're talking about the origin of

Christian anti-Semitism and the nature

of pontious pilot how do we tie that

together what I realized Alex is is that

when Mark starts his gospel he's not

just writing a history there is history

in it some of it there are biographical

and historical elements but primarily

it's a message about Jesus of Nazareth

and primarily it's a

Manifesto and he starts up by

saying telling a story about a

man whose origin is prophesied in the

book of Isaiah that's John the Baptist

and then man comes up to him and is

baptized and the spirit of God descends

on Jesus of Nazareth and a voice from

Heaven says this is my beloved

Son in him I'm well pleased and

immediately it says the

Satan the spirit sent him Jesus Into the

Wilderness to battle against the evil

evil force presumed to be ruling the

world since Rome was ruling the world

many devout Jews Jesus's followers

included and the Dead Sea Scrolls

Community also believe that evil is now

ruling The World God has to take it back

so if Jesus comes from God his task is

to overpower the evil force first and he

does it initially in Mark but the whole

story of Mark is hey the fight isn't

over the evil power is not giving

up he in fact

Engineers he he he possesses

people to oppose Jesus and finally get

him

crucified and even when he succeeds in

that the evil power succeeds in that

Satan gets him crucified by going into

Jes in into Judas just as John said and

Luke says the same um even then he

doesn't win the war because God finally

takes Jesus back from the dead and he is

going to rule the world in the future

that's the story the gospels to there's

this very strange sense I mean we

described John describes Satan as the

archon of the cosmos in in John chapter

12 we spoke about that a moment ago he

said it sort of means ruler of the of

the world and when Satan is tempting

Jesus in the desert at one point he sort

of shows him he takes him up a a

mountain and shows him the land and says

this can all be yours if you'll just bow

down to me implying that Satan is the

ruler of the world at this point the

Satan seems to many devout Jews like the

ruler of the world because it's ruled by

Rome and Rome

worships crazy gods that aren't Gods

from the Jewish point of view demonic

Powers right it's very interesting in

John's gospel that well throughout the

synoptic gospels that is Matthew Mark

and Luke Jesus Is A Healer and he's also

an exorcist and he goes around casting

demons out of people and so there there

are people who are demonically possessed

and Jesus goes up to them and upon you

know hearing the name of the Lord they

they all sort of flurry and disappear

John's

gospel doesn't have exorcisms Jesus

doesn't go around exercising people uh

there's no exorcisms of of demons in the

way that there is in the synoptic

gospels in John what you do have in John

is this idea of Satan the archon of the

cosmos the the man who sort of enters

into Jesus so again seeming to sort

of take this character of Satan and and

move this sort of vague demonic idea

even further away from this from this

sort of being that is subservient to God

but somehow out of his favor or angry

with him to this like specific

malevolent entity with power with power

over the world with power over people

rather than just being some kind of

Fallen Angel or demonic figure

especially in the Gospel of John Satan

becomes this very identifiable uh

character that's why I was interested in

what I call the Social history of Satan

because it's not just about a a

spiritual battle it's about a very human

I mean when people talk about

supernatural battles they say Satan's

trying to take over this country they're

not just talking about something up

there they're talking about people they

could give you names and

addresses right they know who Satan's

peoples are and it's not whoever was

speaking to you but in John's gospel as

you say when Jesus says look the ruler

of the world is coming he's pointing to

a man and that man is Judas into whom

Satan has come and who through whom

Satan is speaking betraying Jesus right

and then Jesus says those who turn me

over to you have the greater sin so it

is it is Judas and then Matthew says the

whole people cried for the crucifixion

of Jesus which I think and I think most

Scholars think is not what happened at

all because if you read the gospels up

to that point the crowds are all in

favor of Jesus they can't even arrest

him in public because people would

protect him right so it's a real

disconnect in the stories Alex that that

we've

missed because of the way the story has

a coherence right um the way it's told

and it becomes the story about the Jews

killed Jesus and throughout the Middle

Ages when you suddenly have oh let me

just go back and say as long

as Jesus's followers are being

persecuted for 300 years after his death

that story isn't dangerous to Jews it

protects

them Jesus's followers are

protected but when the emperor becomes a

Christian in the 4th

Century as one writer

says Christian prejudices against Jews

who don't accept Jesus become legal

disabilities then in the 4th century

you find Christian Emperors writing law

codes in which converting someone to

Judaism if you're a

rabbi can incur the punishment of being

burned to

death that's in the first Christian Law

Courts in the 4th Century only when Rome

is in power does this become dangerous

to Jews and then throughout the Middle

Ages there are laws against the Jews

which I didn't really know about before

until I became much more aware of How

Deeply this is embedded in Christianity

frankly I was shocked and dismayed

really

upset I went to my professors at Harvard

and I

said Christian anti-judaism is written

right in the

gospels and one of my

professors who by the

way had been in Nazi army and a member

of the Nazi

party captured by the G by by the allies

and imprisoned during the war and then

exonerated he he's a famous Professor of

Bible

German he said to me there's nothing

anti-jewish in the New Testament that's

just not

true

um he he he didn't tell the truth

he may not have even known but he

claimed there's no anti-Semitism in it

even when I spoke with a another

Christian colleague she said but

Christianity is all about

love and I

said at its best it

is but there's an undercurrent in it

that allows for hate and when I wrote

this book about this saying wait a

minute how is this written into the

gospels they weren't trying to kill

other Jews they were trying to save

other Jews who were followers of Jesus

but only when Christians are entirely

distinct from Jews and mostly Gentiles

and allied with the Roman government

that becomes really dangerous after

Constantine the game changes

completely so well I I would love to

talk about your personal reactions your

personal motivations for talking about

Satan and and where this comes from but

I I think just to to to close off our

development here so we've sort of gone

all the way

from from the very beginnings of the of

the of the Hebrew Bible all the way up

through John's gospel uh there's also a

mention of Satan in the Book of

Revelation um sort of again further

develops as a character and Revelation

chapter 20 tells us then I well this is

this is part of the vision that that the

author presumably the author of John

same author here is having um then I saw

an angel coming down from heaven he had

in his hand a key to the hole without a

bottom or to the abyss he also had a

strong chain he took a hold of the

dragon that old snake who is the devil

or Satan and chained him for a thousand

years the angel threw the devil into the

hole without a bottom he shut it and

locked him in it he could not fool the

Nations anymore until the 10,000 years

were completed after this he must be

free for for a while so this image of

Satan in Revelation is interesting

because we have this victory over Satan

he's chained up he's thrown into the

abyss but there's also this strange

reference to him not being able to fool

the Nations anymore until the thousand

years are completed and then he goes

free what's that all about well that is

probably a picture that comes it really

comes um from someone writing either

right before the gospels are

written perhaps at the same time as the

gospels that is written by a devout

Jewish Prophet who sees Satan in control

of the world because the Romans are in

control of it when he's writing and he

has this traditional picture that the

world is ruled by Satan we can see that

look at the the Roman the Romans have

Roman troops all over

Judea this this country of Israel has

been destroyed but in the end time when

the Messiah returns John sees us Jesus

John the Baptist he says then God is

going to destroy that old Serpent and so

many apocalyptic people see that the

same

way um so that picture is really not

like the picture of the gospels of Satan

it's much more like the followers of

Jesus in the first century and do we do

we know what that thousand years is

about the the sort of thousand years and

then afterwards he goes free for a while

yeah I mean even in in in the gospel of

Mark it says that uh you

know Jes the son of man in heaven will

rule the world after a time and they

don't specify the time but sometimes

apocalyptic writers like to do

that I I may say that after I wrote that

book I was really stunned by what I

saw and then James Carroll I don't know

if you know his book uh James Carroll

was a was a Catholic priest he read my

book he was very

troubled to think that anti-Semitism had

been carried on in Catholic tradition

for thousands of years and he went back

to World War II and he saw the evidence

of this I believe he left the Catholic

priesthood in any case he wrote a book

called Constantine sword which did what

I couldn't do I wished I could take the

story of Christian anti-Semitism from

the 4th Century to the

21st I did I can't do that I'm a

historian I couldn't possibly try to

deal

with 2,000 years Carol was a priest but

he he connected the dots through the

2,000 years in his book called

Constantine sword he did a film about it

as well with the same title so if

anybody's interested in the history of

Christian anti-Semitism through the 21st

century that book takes us through

it yeah well I'll I'll try to remember

to link that in the description if

people are interested or in the show

notes if they're listening

um do you

think where the Book of Revelation says

there he took a hold of the dragon that

old snake who is the devil or Satan that

snake some people might think is a

reference to the snake in the Garden of

Eden do you think that that is a

reference to the Garden of Eden and do

you think that Satan is the snake in the

Garden of

Eden I always used to assume so because

Christian painters like Michelangelo

always picture the serpent as

the voice of Satan Jewish Trad tra

thinkers traditionally didn't do that

but they sometimes do now because

they've adopted the same much of the

same imagery of Satan and so have

Muslims

so that is often seen as Satan but

traditionally Jews saw the serpent as a

cunning

snake yeah I mean I've

apocal yeah

I've heard it said that that might be a

reference to another snake uh and it

might in other words it might not be a

reference to I you might think that well

when the when Genesis was written uh

there was no idea that the snake was

Satan the concept of Satan didn't really

exist and at a later point when the

author of John is writing Revelation he

writes about this reference to the snake

in order to sort of give that identity

to the serpent but I have heard that it

could also be not this not the serpent

in the Garden of Eden it could refer to

something else but but it's also Alex in

in uh in Psalm 27 I believe in which no

it's Isaiah Isaiah 27 Isa yeah in which

in which um the prophet calls on the

Lord to destroy the serpent that old

serpent that that called Satan and the

dragon looks very much like a snake so

you can translate serpent um as as a

monstrous a monstrous sea serpent as as

Babylonians pictured the evil

forces well that's that's what i' that's

what I'd heard was was that there's this

sort of idea that it might have been the

the great sort of sea basilisk that's

being referred to here instead it's it's

it's I mean it's pretty cryptic we don't

we don't know for sure um and in fact

I've I've spoken about this air a fair

bit and I think my listeners will

probably be familiar with this but there

is a Gnostic Gospel and I have a hunch

that you know a thing or two about the

Gnostic Gospels uh there's one Gnostic

Gospel discovered in the nomadi library

which takes a fairly revolutionary view

to as to what this serpent in the Garden

of Eden was

right yes and that's a reference to the

Gospel of John which says that the

serpent was Christ and it's referring to

the opening of The Gospel of John which

says when Moses lifted up a serpent in

the wilderness it was an image of a

staff with a snake which is the image of

medicine right the god uh God asclepius

you know that's the symbol of this God

of healing in Greece still this cuse

they call it right the symbol of medical

treatment and so when Moses lifts up the

staff in the wilderness with snake on it

there's a healing and so John's go

applies that to

Jesus Jesus is the serpent in the

wilderness and that's where that those

connections are made John says you know

as as Moses lifted the serpent so I must

be lifted so so sort of identifying

Jesus with a serpent at

least Jesus on the cross is identified

with exactly that Serpent of aus who

brings healing isn't that amazing now

that's the serpent that Moses is talking

about but this yes this Gnostic Gospel

I'm talking about the testimony of truth

goes back to the Genesis story and looks

at this serpent who finds his way into

the Garden of Eden and and sort of tells

Adam and Eve look you know you're not

going to die you'll just become like God

knowing good and evil and they eat the

fruit and that's exactly what happened

it's like the serpent didn't even seem

to tell a lie and so the author of this

testimony of truth it's called is is

like what God is this what God is this

that that lies to Adam and Eve I mean

who is this serpent that's basically

coming in and telling the truth and well

the author tells us

right yes that author is very hostile to

Jewish tradition and saying yes you know

the whole tradition uh is not true

because the serpent was saying if you

eat from that fruit you will become wise

and that's what happens they don't die

they become wise that's what the story

says so the serpent was right all along

and it's another instance of

identification of the serpent with Jesus

as if to say and in in the Gnostic

tradition we've done a whole episode on

this I've talked about the

Gnostic ideas quite a lot now in in a

lot of Gnostic uh thought the creator of

the material world is this sort of evil

Demi urge type figure and so the god of

the Garden of Eden of Adam and Eve this

figure who walks through the garden and

tells them not to eat of the tree is

this sort of

evil or malevolent or uh or maybe just

incompetent figure and so the snake is

the is the mechanism by which the true

God and Jesus is able to sort of come

and bring the the the message of

Salvation to to Adam and Eve by giving

them sort of by like opening their eyes

spiritually so it's this total reworking

of the idea of Satan as the serpent it

it flips it on its

head well you're beautifully

illustrating how people play with these

texts you know they can turn them every

way and turn them around around and say

oh yes and the opposite is true and it

works this way instead and so these

texts regarded as scriptures get played

like instruments with very different

Tunes as just as you said now just

before we we wrap up here because we've

done our history of Satan is is

essentially complete of course we've

only just skimmed the surface and you

have an entire book I've already

mentioned the origin of Satan on all of

this kind of stuff um but we've we've

gone from Genesis and exodus we talked

about job and Zechariah we've gone

through the gospels through to

Revelation um this this seems to be

something that well you've written about

it you know a lot about it why why Satan

it's a bit of an odd subject to to

choose to focus on

now well I don't know I it does seem to

me that when I look at the way

people polarize the world and

human groups between good and evil it

can be very misleading you know I mean

it made me think that I I wouldn't

wouldn't call most human beings good or

evil because most people are quite

mixed but that's not to say it's

relative I would say when it comes to

acts Alice Axel pardon me Alex when it

comes to acts like the slaughter of

innocent people Slaughter of children

I know that's evil you know that's evil

just instinctively there are evil acts

that people do but to call people evil I

think can really lead

to extreme stereotyping and extreme

hostility which is

unnecessary in most

situations I mean I would say those acts

are evil but does that make all those

people evil not necessarily

H so terrible things done what's the

take-home message from

our sort of Investigation into Satan and

realizing that this is a character who

has socially evolved who has been used

by different people for lots of

different reasons uh be it a sort of

theological tool for explaining evil or

a narrative character or a social Factor

as uh as helping to uh sort of butress

the the anti semitism that has riddled

the history of Christianity what's the

take-home message from realizing that

this Satan character is not a

straightforward as people might

think well for me it it it says that

when we're dealing with conflict today

whether it's social political

personal labeling one side as good and

the other as evil is far too simplistic

and I think it's a false way to deal

with conflict that I think conflict

between human beings is much more

complicated than that almost always

unless somebody is

advocating

um some acts that are atrocious you know

like massive rapes massive

killings destroying innocent people um

so I I just would like to set aside and

say that is mythological language

folks and it has its functions but I

think we're dealing with social and

political issues let's talk about the

real

Stakes um here on Earth for both sides

uh and not label each other in that way

which can lead to much more intense

conflicts than

otherwise certainly well as I say and

I'll say it for the third time the book

is the origin of Satan and it will be

linked in the description down below I

hope people will go and read it if

they're interested

and hopefully we've learned a thing or

two about Satan I know that I have in

preparing for this episode and in

speaking to you now so Ela pagels thanks

again for taking the time it's always a

pleasure to have you on the show thank

you it's been wonderful talking with you

watch my previous episode with elae

Pagel on the Gnostic Gospels by clicking

the link that's on your screen if you

want to support the channel and get

Early Access add free to these episodes

then you can do so at alexo con.com by

subscribing to my substack thanks for

watching and I'll see you in the next

one