The Man With 150,000 SEO Domain Names - Kalin Karakehayov Interview
Summary
TLDRIn this interview, SEO expert Colin Kov discusses the evolution of his domain and PBN business, starting from his frustration with clients to building a large domain database. He shares insights on securing VC funding, the importance of domain names with traffic, and the role of PBNs in SEO. Kov also addresses the impact of AI on domaining and debunks myths around diversifying PBNs, emphasizing the stability of the domain industry over the past 20 years.
Takeaways
- 😀 The interviewee, Colin Kov, started in SEO and domaining in 2008, initially working with clients before moving to more automated methods due to the challenges of client management.
- 🔍 Colin discovered the importance of having a large domain database, which became a competitive advantage, especially for catching expired domains in less competitive niches like country code top-level domains (ccTLDs).
- 💡 After being banned by Google, Colin and his team pivoted to building domain databases and offering enterprise services, eventually securing seed investment from a VC fund.
- 💼 The initial investment pitch to investors was focused on the potential of the domain database to find and resell valuable domains, which was met with skepticism but eventually led to funding.
- 📈 Colin's company experienced significant growth after securing investment, with a notable early client being Jason from Digiity, which helped to validate their business model.
- 🌐 The importance of a good domain name was discussed, with traffic being a significant factor, sometimes even more so than the domain name itself, especially when traffic comes from direct referrals or streaming.
- 🔑 Domain age and its impact on SEO was debated, with Colin suggesting that Google's algorithms may learn from the usage patterns of expired domains rather than having a set rule against them.
- 🌐 The role of AI in the domain industry was questioned, with Colin expressing doubt that AI will significantly change the domain system, given its stability and the slow-moving nature of the domain governing bodies.
- 🛡️ Colin highlighted the importance of diversification in building private blog networks (PBNs), including using different hosting solutions, themes, and CMSs to avoid footprints that could be penalized by search engines.
- 📊 The interview touched on the efficacy of PBNs and links in SEO, with Colin's experience indicating that high-quality PBNs can be effective even if the websites themselves have poor user metrics.
- 👥 Lastly, the interview concluded with Colin offering assistance in the domain community, particularly for those facing issues with domain blacklisting, leveraging his unique name and connections in the industry.
Q & A
What was the initial motivation for the interviewee to start working with domains?
-The interviewee started working with domains after finding clients annoying while running an agency. He was looking for ways to learn more with less effort and discovered that working with domains was easier in 2008-2009.
How did the interviewee's company get VC funding?
-The company acquired VC funding after building a large domain database and pitching to investors. Initially, they received €50,000 for 12% equity after several pitches, and later received an additional €100,000 for another 10% equity.
What was the role of the interviewee's co-founder in the company's development?
-The co-founder, being a skilled developer, joined the team and helped build the domain database, which became a significant competitive advantage for the company.
What was the first major order the company received after starting to catch and resell domains?
-The first major order was from Jason, a partner at Digity, for 300 domains, which marked a significant breakthrough for the company.
What are the three factors that make a domain name valuable according to the interviewee?
-The three factors are good name, links, and traffic. Some domains may not have links but have traffic from sources like direct referrals or pirate streaming.
How has the domain industry changed in the last 20 years according to the interviewee?
-The interviewee believes that the domain industry has not changed significantly in the last 20 years. The system for registering, transferring, and dropping domains remains largely the same.
What is the interviewee's opinion on the importance of domain age and its effect on SEO?
-The interviewee believes that domain age's effect on SEO depends on the pool size of expired and non-dropped domains and how they are used. He suggests that machine learning may have found ways to use this data that even Google engineers did not anticipate.
How does the interviewee diversify his PBN (Private Blog Network)?
-The interviewee diversifies his PBN by using different hosting solutions, themes, CMS's, and ensuring that the domains are registered to real people to avoid being flagged by Google.
What is the interviewee's view on the effectiveness of PBNs and links in the context of AI and Google updates?
-The interviewee believes that PBNs and links will continue to be effective, as the main difference will be in terms of economy and money flows, allowing for more investment in links and domains.
How does the interviewee handle the issue of domain blacklisting?
-The interviewee offers to help by contacting people he knows in most domain registries, which may assist in unblocking the domains, although he cannot guarantee success in every case.
What advice does the interviewee give regarding the use of unique domain names in SEO?
-The interviewee suggests that having a unique domain name can be beneficial in SEO, as it can make it easier to rank and is less likely to be confused with other sites.
Outlines
🚀 Startup Journey and SEO Challenges
The speaker discusses their initial venture into web development for clients, which led to the realization of the annoyances of client work. This prompted a shift towards more autonomous projects. The narrative includes the experience of securing venture capital funding in FCO, despite initial investor skepticism. The speaker also touches on the evolution of their business, from dealing with PBNs and SEO to offering a range of domain-related services. The interview highlights the importance of domain databases and the competitive advantage they provided, as well as the challenges faced with Google's indexing and the shift towards more sustainable business models.
🌐 Domain Name Strategies and Revenue Streams
This paragraph delves into the intricacies of domain name selection and the factors that contribute to a good domain name, such as links, traffic, and brandability. The speaker shares insights into their business model, which includes catching expired domains and reselling them. The discussion also covers the impact of traffic, which surprisingly contributed to a significant portion of their revenue. The speaker provides a nuanced view on the role of domain names in SEO and the importance of leveraging different revenue streams, including direct referrals and organic traffic.
💡 Insights on Domain Industry and AI's Future Impact
The speaker reflects on the stability of the domain industry over the past two decades, noting that there have been minimal changes to the foundational processes of domain registration and management. They express skepticism about the potential for AI to revolutionize the domain system, arguing that the infrastructure is too entrenched and the stakeholders too diverse for significant shifts. The paragraph also addresses the debate on expired versus aged domains and their efficacy in SEO, suggesting that the machine learning algorithms may inadvertently favor certain types of domains based on historical data.
🔍 The Role of PBNs and SEO in a Post-AI World
The speaker discusses the ongoing relevance of PBNs (Private Blog Networks) and SEO in the face of AI advancements. They share their perspective on the economic shifts that AI might bring to the industry, suggesting that the focus could shift towards investing more in links and domains due to the reduced cost of content creation. The speaker also addresses the challenges of maintaining a diverse PBN network and the strategies they employ to avoid detection by search engines, such as using different hosting solutions and CMS themes.
🛡️ Diversification and Best Practices for PBN Networks
This paragraph focuses on strategies for diversifying PBNs to avoid pattern recognition by search engines. The speaker explains their approach to using static HTML and different hosting solutions, which allows for cost-effective management of a large network of PBNs. They also touch on the importance of using different registrars and WHOIS information to maintain the authenticity and diversity of the PBN network. The speaker challenges the notion that having a website on a unique IP is a significant SEO factor, arguing that the internet's natural state involves shared hosting and IP addresses.
🤝 Networking and Support in the Domain Community
The final paragraph highlights the importance of networking within the domain and SEO community. The speaker offers themselves as a resource for those facing issues with domain blacklisting, leveraging their connections within the industry to assist where possible. They also emphasize the benefits of having a unique name in the SEO world and invite interested parties to connect with them via social media platforms like Facebook and LinkedIn for further discussions and assistance.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡SEO
💡Domaining
💡VC funding
💡PBNs
💡Domain database
💡Reverse DNS
💡Traffic
💡Domain industry
💡TLDs
💡AI
💡Expired domains
Highlights
The interviewee started with website development for clients but found clients annoying and sought more efficient ways to work, leading to domain and SEO work.
In 2008, the interviewee began with SEO and content projects, and after being personally targeted by Google, pivoted to domain database building and monitoring.
The company acquired VC funding after several pitches, emphasizing their large domain database and potential for enterprise services.
Domains with traffic, even from direct referrals or pirate streaming, played a significant role in the company's success, contributing to about 50% of their revenue.
The importance of good domain names is discussed, with a combination of good name, links, and traffic being ideal.
The interviewee believes that domain relevancy in languages other than English may not be as significant to Google's algorithms.
Domain age and expiration might affect their efficacy in Google's search results, but it's more about how they are used rather than the dates themselves.
Having a domain with a history of a large number of indexed pages can be beneficial for quickly reindexing a large website.
The interviewee doubts that AI will significantly change the domain industry, which has remained stable for the last 20 years.
The impact of AI on link building and PBNs is discussed, with the interviewee suggesting that economic factors may change rather than the efficacy of the links.
High-quality PBNs are described as websites restored from the archive with potential for high organic traffic, despite often poor user experience.
Diversifying PBNs involves using different hosting solutions, themes, CMS's, and ensuring privacy in domain registration.
The interviewee argues against the necessity of unique IP addresses for SEO hosting, suggesting it's an unnecessary cost.
The interviewee's unique name is highlighted as an advantage in SEO, making him easily findable online.
The interview concludes with the interviewee offering help with domain blacklisting issues through his connections in domain registries.
Transcripts
I started doing websites for a while as
an agency thing doing for clients but
discovered only within one year that
plans are so annoying you're one of the
few companies in FCO that have got VC
funding we have huge domain database uh
we're going to offer service reverse
quiz reverse DNS Security Services stuff
like this investor were like we don't
understand about this what makes a
really good domain name traffic has been
for some part of our journey about 50%
of Revenue do you know what has changed
in the domain industry for the last for
20 years not a whole lot of
[Music]
things hey guys and welcome back to the
channel and welcome back to another
episode where I'll be interviewing SEO
entrepreneurs and experts from around
the world in today's episode we've got
an OG in the SEO scene he currently
employs over 120 people he runs one of
Bulgaria's biggest startups he has an
awesome domain name wink wink and he has
recently been selling pbns and links
please welcome to the channel Colin kov
ladies and gentlemen K yeah
close I know yeah thanks for giving me I
appreciate you coming on and sorry if I
butchered your name there slightly I I
tried to uh tried to preempt it there
but it it totally butchered it when it
came out um do you want to give people a
bit of a background into who you are and
how you got started in Su and
domaining yeah it was uh
2008 uh I started doing websites for a
while as an agency thing doing for
clients but uh discovered only within
one year that clients are so annoying so
I was searching for ways that uh I can I
can learn more for for Less effort Theo
was really easy back then 20089 so yeah
I work with clients and some content
projects in Bulgarian and then uh
started hiring people
scaling and in uh
201 14 I think 134 I had the same
experience you had I got personally
targeted by
Google got every everything I own the
index like pbn normal website everything
like everything that was on my quiz was
gone damn yeah it seems to be a more
common theme now that more people are
Google's got an enemy as a hit list
they're going after and they definitely
seem to be fulfilling it so you're one
of the few companies in FCO that have
got VC funding I know there's a few
others like you have like market news
out of Romania and you got white press
out of Poland and things but how did you
go about acquiring that investment in
the first place when I got banned by
Google uh I started for searching for
ways to get more cheaper and better
domains for the pbn because I had more
than a thousand pbn the index so I
started building uh databases of all
domains that exist so we can uh so I
could um monitor expired domains catch
them this was easy back then and there
were less public list so especially in
the cctlds uh the need to have a
database was was very important and was
a huge competitive Advantage uh that
when my co-founder method joined the
team he's a very good developer and uh
yeah so we built this database started
to monitor domains but uh we were going
to offer
some uh Enterprise service like domain
tools because we have the second largest
domain database and then we uh we went
to to a it's a VC fund but it's more
like seed preed because it was a very
small amount of money only 50 50,000 EUR
but still for us it seemed like a ton
because in Bulgaria everything is cheap
so and we were a very small team and we
went to the investors and we pitched
three times for first two first two
times they were just training pitches
and uh we were like okay we have huge
domain database uh we're going to offer
service reverse who reverse DNS Security
Services stuff like this investors were
like we don't understand about this
so first presentation was seos need
domains and we can find them and catch
them and resell them and this is like
some Market they were like okay let's at
least we see how this leads to to the
money you know how you can grow based on
something more than dreams so yeah we
were a bit surprised but we got uh
50,000 Euro for 12% then a year later we
had burn for the money didn't had much
progress he figuring what what we are
doing but since uh the money comes from
uh from Jer Jeremy the European
investment fund
so it's not their money and they have
some that they have to spend so it's
better for them to to double down then
give up so they gave us 100,000 more for
another 10% and uh the next year we
started catching domains in many TS
reselling uh finding uh uh
buyers actually uh our first uh big uh
buyer was uh Jason Jason kpu's M mat
partner I was like I was just starting
to learn who is who it was I think 2016
and got an order for 300 or something
and uh I was chatting with this Jason
guy on Skype didn't know who he was and
and then I sent an invoice and says uh
the inv said M digity I was
like just made a big
break 100% yeah J Jason's crazy when it
comes to operational management and
scaling and things and stuff I think he
I think he's probably the next person
actually you've just kind of given me an
insight there into who I should probably
invite next on the show so I'll
definitely try and get Jason involved um
when all all the way back then were they
just mostly using that for pbn domains
and come of the whole digity
links yeah I'm not sure if it went into
digity links because there was cctlds uh
dity links was maybe maybe some side
projects but there yeah everything went
into pbn yeah I thought so okay cool so
apart from obviously the the cost being
very affordable what makes a really good
domain name according to Ken
uh it can be three things or a
combination good name links and traffic
some domains don't have uh don't have
links but have traffic and it doesn't
come from organic like we all used to
but it's coming from director referral
mostly pirate streaming this this have
played a big role in our in our success
because um when we catch when we invest
into catching infrastructure in scripts
and developers and accreditations we
need to to catch uh all of the good
domains to to make the return on
investments and SEO domains is one thing
the names are very competitive because
all the domainers try to catch them but
traffic is a bit in the middle some
domains know traffic well others don't
most don't actually so traffic has been
for some parts of our journey about 50%
of Revenue which is quite uh unex it
played an unexpectedly big part SEO
domains uh are now the the biggest part
then comes traffic and then comes names
wow okay that makes it it makes a lot of
sense actually I do know a lot of domain
sellers that always say look if you're
holding domain names put a landing page
on it and get some Revenue generating
off of it right if you're just going to
hold on to domain names and not let them
make you money then you're wasting money
right um so in terms of uh domain name
relevancy obviously in English it
matters quite a lot and Google's gotten
better at uh understanding NLP and all
these ml algorithms and things kind of
contextually under understanding
semantic relevancy um does relevancy
match at domain level as much outside of
English I think in some other languages
that Google will understand well maybe
top 10 other languages it will have some
significance but the more weird language
is and especially if in some weird
alphabet like Thai or Japanese or
Chinese then Google won't understand the
thing I think about relevancy um because
uh it's quite hard it's another word to
to crack it there I think for the for
the algorithms and the Machine learning
and everything yeah 100% it's a lot of
like correlation based stuff rather than
actually being semantically relevant and
stuff um so do when a domain when
domains drop and and kind of get reset
in terms of their age does that affect
their efficacy in Google obviously over
time we've had this massive debate
between expire domains versus age
domains in my I have a very clear
opinion on this um do does does domain
age and that kind of expiration affects
the efficacy in
Google I think it depends on how big the
pools are of uh of uh the expired ones
and the non- drop ones and how are they
used and I don't think it's that
something uh something Google put there
manually but rather the machine learning
learn to use the quiz data in some ways
that probably the the Google Engineers
didn't even think it it could be useful
because not only the drop date I know
case studies that affected but also if
the domain was name right where the drop
catch domains go the drop once it it was
a bad signal According to some people
and this is definitely not something I
think a Google engineer will put in the
algorithm like literally look for this
regist so I think the machine learning
was just finding uh new data points but
I think that maybe for some time there
was a lot of usage of drop domains for
something like like nowadays for example
Indonesian uh I gaming
Casino guys they go through go auctions
and take hundreds of domains per day and
they all turn to Turn and Burn
Indonesian money site so if something
that large scale is going on is going to
uh put like a bump in the grph and the
distributions and then maybe the
algorithm will do some countermeasure
but if it's uh done in moderation uh I
don't think that it will play an
important role I think if there was any
role it will get smaller over time as
more and more normal domains of normal
people drop and get used because there's
no good domains available so I don't
think that Google will have a different
algorithm for a domain with five links
that drops naturally and get
re-registered naturally and the 500 link
domain that drops and gets re-registered
by SEO for money site so I think it's
all about the the pool size the
distributions uh there's definitely
something there uh the ccts that we do
they uh they don't have a
easy creation date in who or it's harder
for Google to pull so I think they're
completely safe uh so if you get like a
d domain and use it in Germany you
definitely say that it's going to be
treated as a non- drop domain uh but for
the Doom maybe some effect still not
sure yeah so so a lot of domainers have
said that they prefer to rely on
Google's cast than Google then Google's
who is right in terms of their ability
to kind of look into the site's history
do you put much into Google uh looking
at its old cach Pages at the in terms of
its updated variations in terms of you
know if you have got a domain and it had
a website on it a year ago and you put a
pbn on it is that going to be effective
because Google's cash still has that
site from a year ago in the cash what I
know is that for a very big money site
especially this ambitious AI project uh
like the con houseal and stuff it's very
important if you want to index a lot of
pages to have uh the domain that
previously had a lot of pages index it
may no longer have them in the index
maybe only uh had 100,000 Pages now it
may have 100 but it very quick to go for
uh to 100,000 again because it somehow
has the the big craw budget still uh
still there so this is something that
definitely is important if you're uh
doing something big but I think for pbn
or 301s it's it's irrelevant whether
whether the domain was dropped or has
something index it's only for money
sites where it's more relevant the
transition from what was there before to
what is there
now and so how do you think domains are
going to be affected by AI right so some
people think that AI is going to remove
the TLD system from the world and that
we're going to have some weird scraping
system which I don't see coming to
fruition at all I still think that
you're going to need the TLD system even
in terms of like a prioritization system
where that the MLS and Argos can kind of
prioritize source domains how do you
think AI is going to affect domaining
going
forward uh I'm going to answer with a
question do you know what has changed in
the domain industry for the last 20
years not a whole lot of things nothing
like nothing at all is the most stable
thing in the internet actually uh
domains have been registered transferred
drop and all of this is uh standardized
uh and yeah nothing is really changing
some country may do some small changes
with their TLD but uh the system is uh
built to be uh to perform in the only
way that it can possibly exist and
perform big changes are impossible
because there are so many like stacked
players there as a registry and the
regist there are thousands of Icon
register if you make a change for the
Doom 4,000 different independent company
must apply the change and some of them
have resellers so the resellers to have
to implement the change it's just
impossible so um also ion the the
organization that runs domains is a it's
like a big politically involved uh NGO
and it's a multi-stakeholder model this
means that uh private companies have a
say and uh small businesses have a say
and the government has a say and like
NSA and FBI have has a say so nothing
gets done there because everyone has a
say like everyone can be to everything
and just put everything into like Philly
busty to to to end this discussion so
it's it's the most one of the most I
think slow moving organizations on the
planet so the system is slow moving and
the organization behind it is slow
moving so it's just nothing is happening
and I don't think that AI has anything
to do with the doain Swit at the real
estate of of the internet yeah it's
great news for you when things don't
move so fast right because it means
certainly we don't want anything to
happen with domains exactly and now for
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we've had the most influential dancing
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sent the findings and the press relas to
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and shows you that you can build links
with simple and basic campaigns more
recently you've been selling uh links
and pbns have you seen there been more
of an efficacy and more Effectiveness
around those around links and around
pbns since AI is going to come into
Subs uh yeah I I I don't think there
there's going to be any difference the
only difference is will be in terms of
like economy and money flows because now
content is cheaper so you can spend more
on links more on domains this is I think
a good thing for us because we don't do
anything with consent so a larger
portion of budget will go to to our
company uh it's hard to see this play uh
in reality because everyone is so badly
hurt by by this helpful content update
that uh like we don't have any website
so we don't feel the pain directly but
people are just licking their am and
they don't come and byy domains and Link
so uh indirectly it's hitting up too um
so so I I think that uh our back links
uh generally work they are mostly
homepage link so what we have is a high
quality BBN which means website restored
from the archive with every page they
possibly got on the archive from every
day so 100 to thousands of pages per
website um unfortunately Google doesn't
reward this website with a lot of
organic traffic because their own page
is terrible no keyword optimization like
no decent titles headings they're not
mob
friendly yeah they're just very very old
so websites from 15 years ago um I think
the biggest problem is that they're not
mobile friendly and that uh whoever
person get there was like oh I went into
a time machine and just closes the
website so uh so the all the like user
metrics will probably also be terrible
and yeah Google with some exceptions
Google won't rank you know they index
perfectly the links give value but
they're not ranked and and I think this
also dis the myth that you need to uh to
have a website with traffic for the link
to to move the needle because uh our
websites most of them don't have any
traffic but uh all of the buyers are
super happy so definitely the links work
yeah 100% we build links off of you know
d9s and stuff all the time off of Niche
edits and those pages don't have traffic
but the site has 100 million visitors
right and those links work significantly
better than you know dr10 that maybe
that page itself has got 10,000 visits a
month from Google but the dr90 is so
much more effective that it's it's
piling on significantly more even with
the traffic here right um so in terms of
building these pbns because you've got
such a large pbn Network how do you go
about diversifying it um you must build
a lot of different hosting Solutions a
lot of different themes cms's what you
said you rebuild a lot of stuff there so
that probably removes a lot of the leg
work around rebuilding websites and
stuff um but how do you go about
especially diversifying those pbns when
you're
building uh so uh there's uh several
points to diversifying uh if you use
WordPress to making classical pbn you
need different WordPress themes and not
having the same plugins Etc on the same
website we don't use WordPress we uh
restore with arival to static HTML uh
this makes uh placing the links later a
little bit more annoying but then you
can use uh uh cheaper hosting or your
own server uh you can just uh put qual
Clare different qual Clare accounts you
can make as many of them as you want
they're free uh on top and you can have
uh basically just a few servers or a few
shared costing and a lot of qual play I
think qual play now cost it cost such a
big portion of the internet that it's
safe to have 80% qual player maybe 20%
something else so just leaving the the
hosting DNS um The Whiz is now gone
after gdpr so that's not a concern even
keeping the domain on the same
register if there are not like all
thousands of domains in the same
register in this case I would prefer
using like five or 10 registers but if
you have 50 domains on the same register
I think it doesn't matter uh Google uses
for qu is the API of domain tools which
which doesn't really have uh the this
this function to pull all all of the
domains on the same register with the
same easy query as pulling all of the
domains on the same quiz I don't think
that's a big concern so you always
register your pbn domains on a private
person real person because you might get
checked with sending uh real person real
address because you might get ask ID
card and utility bill uh but uh and then
it will always be private if it's a
company it depends on the register some
regar say how it's the company so gdpr
doesn't matter so they will show the the
owner and once the owner is out it's a
problem because Google can see this via
the domain TOS API uh all of the domains
on the same company reverse ownership so
then then you in danger uh but yeah
different uh different website different
who different name servers and I think
you are safe even if the IP the IPS
below the the cloud flare are more or
less groups like not not completely the
same but not completely different I
think it's fine I told also think that
the SEO hosting business is is is is
just selling snake because having all of
your websites on on different IP is not
how the most of the internet works most
of the the websites are on shared
hosting website Builders they are on the
same IPS I don't know if it's still the
same but when I last checked all of the
websites on Shopify were on one
IP like millions of websites so so yeah
the internet is not really natural to to
have everything on a SE on a second I so
this servers is actually people selling
you a fingerprint I don't think that it
will ever become a problem but just
saying that it's not something worth
paying for at all yeah 100% so save your
money basically is what you're saying
and spend your time Elsewhere on on
things that actually matter more more
importantly so I really appreciate you
coming on is there anywhere where people
can find you
online uh well they they can find the
domains and Links at SEO domains and uh
they can just search my name my name is
unique there I'm the only person in the
world with this name so I'm super easily
find just search Kink kak on Facebook we
also have a nice Facebook group with the
new SEO group with some nice discussions
but yeah I'm on I'm mostly on
Facebook uh and uh I'm very easily
contactable there so yeah if you have
any questions or need any help with
domains you also know people in most of
the domain register so we have domains
in gr niches shut down for abuse that's
my chance to really help you in a
meaningful way like contact some people
I know and maybe get the domains
unblocked
it's a big big problem in some grain
ises I cannot promise for every register
because I don't know people everywhere
and of course the people I know may
refuse to help but still uh it's
possible to help in these cases wow okay
so yeah you're the first point of call
whenever I hear somebody getting their
domain blacklisted um and also I think
we share the same thing in commonw it
helps a lot in SEO when you have a
unique name and nobody else on the
planet has your name right I have
definitely a good thing yeah
100% um I appreciate you coming on I'll
put a link in the description to all of
the stuff that you mentioned and your
I'll link to your Twitter and Linkedin
and stuff as well I appreciate you
coming in once more I'll see you guys in
next episode Peace thanks for caring me
bye
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