The rise of populism: Should we be worried? - UpFront

Summary

This discussion examines the rise of right-wing populism and its implications. Experts debate if we're entering a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism, fueled by economic recession, identity politics, and fear of 'the other'. They explore the role of media, the potential for illiberal democracy, and the need for a strong, charismatic left-wing populism to counter the right's success.

Takeaways

• 🌍 Right-wing populist movements are gaining momentum globally, particularly in Western countries.
• 🏅 Brexit and the election of Donald Trump are seen as victories for populist movements.
• 🗳️ The potential for a far-right leader in France, like Marine Le Pen, indicates the spread of populism.
• 🤔 There is a debate on whether this is a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism and the level of concern it warrants.
• 🔗 Populist movements are not new but are being amplified by modern communication methods like social media.
• 📢 Charismatic leaders with a strong narrative can tap into people's fears and desires, making them appealing.
• 🌐 Economic recession and the perception of being 'left behind' by globalization contribute to the rise of populism.
• 🏆 The media is struggling with how to cover populist leaders, often inadvertently bolstering their anti-establishment image.
• 🚫 Populist movements often leverage identity politics and fear of 'the other', such as immigrants or Islam.
• 🌱 There is a need for a more positive form of populism that can channel public anger and frustration productively.

Q & A

What is the main concern regarding the rise of right-wing populism?

The main concern is that it could lead to a new era of nationalism or authoritarianism, potentially producing leaders who undermine democratic norms and values.

How does the panel describe the current political climate as it relates to populism?

The panel describes the current political climate as a new era marked by a series of crisis narratives fed by the new right, disaffection with existing party structures, and a yearning for strong leadership.

What role does social media play in the rise of populism according to the discussion?

Social media is seen as a significant factor in amplifying populist movements by allowing for direct communication with the public, bypassing traditional media, and creating an 'us versus them' mentality.

What does the panel identify as a common thread among various populist movements?

A common thread identified is the creation of borders between identities, an 'Us versus Them' dynamic, and a reaction to the perceived failures of globalization and traditional party politics.

How does the panel view the impact of economic factors on the rise of populism?

Economic factors, such as those affected by globalization and recession, are seen as contributing to the rise of populism by creating a sense of being 'left behind' and a desire for change.

What does the panel suggest about the role of the media in the rise of populist movements?

The media is seen as both contributing to and struggling to respond to populist movements. It is criticized for being part of the 'elite' that populists rail against, but also for having been complicit in their rise through sensationalist coverage.

What historical parallels does the panel draw with the current rise of populism?

The panel draws parallels with the 1930s and the rise of fascism, noting the dangers of charismatic leaders tapping into societal fears and anxieties, and the potential for a new authoritarian era.

How does the panel discuss the concept of 'illiberal democracy'?

Illiberal democracy is discussed as a situation where leaders come to power democratically but do not uphold liberal values such as personal freedoms and minority rights, potentially leading to a transformation of the state that is unrecognizable.

What does the panel suggest as a way for the left to counter right-wing populism?

The panel suggests that the left should tap into the same populist anger but base it on facts and positive messaging, contrasting with the 'politics of hate' often seen on the right.

How does the panel view the future of populism?

The panel sees populism as a long-term phenomenon that has always been present but is currently amplified. They express optimism about democracy's resilience, suggesting that societies can adapt and overcome these challenges.

What does the panel believe is necessary for combating the rise of populism?

The panel believes that a combination of a strong response from the left, media self-reflection, and a public that is aware and engaged in defending democratic values is necessary to combat the rise of populism.

Outlines

00:00

🌍 Rise of Right-Wing Populism

The paragraph discusses the growing influence of right-wing populist movements and politicians, particularly in Western countries. It highlights the victories of Brexit in the UK and Donald Trump's election in the US, and speculates on the potential for a similar outcome in the French presidential election. The conversation involves experts from various fields who express concerns about the potential emergence of a new nationalist or authoritarian era. The discussion points to a sense of crisis, disaffection with traditional party structures, and a desire for strong leadership as drivers of this trend.

05:02

🗳️ Populist Movements and Identity Politics

This section delves into the nature of populism, with a focus on its historical context and its current manifestations. The guests discuss how populism is not a new phenomenon but is being amplified by modern communication methods, such as social media. The conversation also touches on the differences between the populist movements in various countries, emphasizing the importance of considering national singularities. The panelists agree that while populism can be found on both the left and right of the political spectrum, it is currently more visibly influential on the right.

10:03

🌐 Economic and Identity Drivers of Populism

The discussion in this paragraph explores the dual roles of economic and identity politics in fueling the rise of populism. The panelists argue that while there is a mix of factors driving populism, including those left behind by globalization and concerns about immigration and Islam, it is the combination of these factors that is particularly potent. The conversation also addresses the role of the media in shaping public opinion and the challenges it faces in covering populist leaders.

15:04

📢 Media and the Populist Challenge

This section focuses on the media's response to populist movements and leaders. The guests discuss how the media has struggled to cover figures like Donald Trump, often amplifying their messages rather than effectively challenging them. There is a call for a reevaluation of journalistic practices, with an emphasis on the need for a more substantive and less sensationalist approach to reporting. The conversation also touches on the potential for a more positive form of populism that could harness the public's anger and frustration in a constructive way.

20:06

🔄 The Future of Populism

The final paragraph of the script addresses the future of populism and the potential for a shift in public sentiment. The panelists express optimism about the resilience of democracy, despite the current populist wave. They suggest that the pendulum of public opinion can swing back, as evidenced by the election of Barack Obama following a period of conservative leadership. The conversation concludes with a call for vigilance and a commitment to defending democratic values.

Keywords

💡Right-wing populism

Right-wing populism refers to a political ideology that seeks to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by the established elites. It often emphasizes nationalism, anti-immigration, and anti-globalization stances. In the context of the video, right-wing populists are on the rise across the West, with significant victories in Brexit and the US presidential election, suggesting a broader trend of growing support for such ideologies [^2^].

💡Brexit

Brexit refers to the United Kingdom's decision to leave the European Union, which was largely driven by right-wing populist sentiments. It is mentioned in the video as a significant victory for right-wing populists, indicating a move towards nationalism and away from European integration [^3^].

💡Marine Le Pen

Marine Le Pen is a French politician who leads the Rassemblement National (National Rally), a far-right political party. The video discusses her rising popularity in the context of the French presidential election, suggesting that right-wing populism might also gain significant influence in France [^2^].

💡Identity politics

Identity politics refers to political positions based on the interests and perspectives of social groups with which people identify. The video suggests that populism is a form of identity politics, creating divisions between 'us' and 'them', often along lines of nationality, ethnicity, or religion [^2^].

💡Globalization

Globalization is the increasing interconnectedness of world markets and businesses, which has led to concerns about the loss of national sovereignty and cultural identity. The video implies that right-wing populism is partly driven by a backlash against globalization, with populist leaders promising to prioritize national interests over global ones [^2^].

💡Cultural backlash

Cultural backlash refers to a social and political reaction against changes in cultural values and norms. The video suggests that right-wing populism may be fueled by cultural backlash, particularly against immigration and multiculturalism, as people seek to preserve traditional values and ways of life [^2^].

💡Economic recession

Economic recession is a period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced. The video connects economic recession with the rise of populism, suggesting that economic hardship can lead to disillusionment with the establishment and a turn towards populist leaders who promise change [^2^].

💡Social media

Social media is highlighted in the video as a key tool used by populist movements to communicate directly with the public, bypassing traditional media. It is noted that social media has amplified the reach and impact of populist messages, contributing to the rise of right-wing populism [^5^].

💡Illiberal democracy

Illiberal democracy refers to a system where democratic processes are followed, but civil liberties and minority rights are not fully respected. The video discusses the concern that right-wing populist leaders, while elected through democratic means, may undermine liberal values and lead to illiberal democracies [^2^].

💡Elites

Elites in the context of the video refers to the established political, economic, and cultural leaders who are often seen as out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people. Populist movements often position themselves against the elites, claiming to represent the interests of the common people [^2^].

Highlights

Right-wing populists are gaining momentum globally, with significant victories in Brexit and the US presidential election.

There is a potential for the French presidency to be captured by a populist leader, Marine Le Pen.

The Pope has expressed concerns about the rise of populist movements, fearing a new Hitler.

Populist movements are driven by disaffection with existing party structures and a yearning for strong leadership.

Populism is not new but is being amplified by modern communication methods, particularly social media.

Populist leaders create 'us versus them' narratives, often targeting immigrants and elites.

The rise of populism is linked to economic recession and a perceived failure of center-left or center-right politics.

There is a growing fear of Islam and Muslim immigration among certain populist groups.

Populist movements are driven by a mix of identity politics and economic factors.

The media is struggling to respond to populist leaders, often inadvertently bolstering their anti-establishment image.

Populist leaders are positioning themselves as champions of freedom against government interference.

There is a conscious effort among populist leaders to create international networks and propagate their ideologies.

Illiberal democracy is a concern where leaders respect election outcomes but undermine personal freedoms and minority rights.

The current populist wave is compared to the 1930s, raising questions about the legitimacy and future of liberal democracy.

The left wing has been less successful at harnessing populist sentiments compared to the right.

Populist movements are unlikely to disappear soon, but the pendulum of public opinion can swing.

Democracy is seen as the least bad form of government, even if facing populist challenges.

Transcripts

with anti-establishment nationalist

politicians on the rise on both sides of

the Atlantic I'll ask a panel of experts

whether we're entering a new and

dangerous era of right-wing populism an

upfront

[Music]

[Music]

special across the globe and especially

across the West right-wing populists are

Riding High first they won the brexit

referendum in the UK and then the

presidential election in the US soon

they could have the French presidency

too so is this a populist moment are we

witnessing the dawn of a new nationalist

or authoritarian era and if so how

worried should we be the pope recently

said he was concerned that a wave of

populist movements could produce a new

Hitler joining me to discuss this are

Ruth Ben Gat professor of history at New

York University and an expert on fascist

and authoritarian regimes Shahi Hamid a

senior fellow at the Brookings

institution in Washington DC and author

of the recent book Islamic

exceptionalism from Paris we have Martin

can fellow at the Paris office of the

German Marshall fund his focus is on

transatlantic relations and French

politics and from Jerusalem we're joined

by anel feffer who writes about global

Affairs for haret and for the economist

he's covered everything from brexit and

the far right in Europe to the far right

in Israel thank you all for joining me

on this upfront special um Ruth I want

to start with you are we living in a new

era is this a populist moment and if so

what's driving it in your view I think

we're definitely living in a new era

we're also being fed a series of Crisis

narratives by the new right which would

like us to uh be in a new era where

everything is decaying and they are the

answer they are the saviors as to what's

driving it there's a sense of

disaffection with existing party

structures a sense of the weakness of

the left inability to deliver on

globalization and a yearning for a

strong leader in some cases as well as a

lot of kind of activistic fears set off

by the migrant crisis anchel you've been

covering uh reporting on populist

movements across the globe how new is

this in your reporting in your

journalistic

experience well I think this word that

we're using nowadays of popularism and

popularist movements I mean it's an

accurate description but it's also a

different name for something which we've

been talking about quite a while which

is identity politics I mean what is what

is what does a populist leader or a

populist movement do in a country it

basically creates these borders between

identities it's it's an Us Versus Them

us the hardworking honest patriotic

citizens of Sons and Daughters of the

country versus them the the blood

sucking Elites who actually basically

aliens and we've this has always been

part of modern politics it's not it's

not a new phenomena but what we're

seeing now the way it's being used in a

much more Amplified way over the various

modern ways that we have now of

communications especially social media

takes us to a much more much more

populist to use to use the term much

more populist form of politics and we

had in the past shardi as you've watched

events in the UK brexit what's happening

in France with Marine Le Pen's rise and

of course in the United States with

Donald Trump what's gone through your

head

so it sort of reminds me of the Middle

East in that um and you know early on I

remember listening to One of Trump's uh

kind of rallies and thinking to myself

he has a very hypnotic way of speaking

we might hate what he says but there is

a Charisma that we have to acknowledge

and he Taps into the worst aspects or

the dark let's say the darker aspects of

the human psyche and that's something

that Arab autocrats or various islamist

groups in the Middle East have been

doing for a long time they understand

that people want something more than

your kind of run-of-the-mill

technocratic politics and I wanted

Hillary Clinton to win but let's be

honest she wasn't very inspiring or

exciting she didn't speak to this desire

to be part of something meaningful so I

think what these different groups do

whether it's Trump or far-right

populists in Europe or islamist groups

is they speak to this human desire why

now why is this human desire in 2016

2017 well it's always been there I think

underneath the surface but I think I

think that a lot of this has to do with

various modern Trends I mean the rise of

social media and um technology and this

kind of cross-pollination between

countries where Trump is meeting with

leaders of the a far right in Britain or

Austria but I think it's also that you

know over the last few decades um we've

sort of hit I think a wall in the sense

of what this Center left or center right

politics can really offer and obviously

there's also been an economic recession

so you put those different aspects

together and I think you have a perfect

storm well picking up on The Perfect

Storm Martin can in Paris um the reason

we're all talking about populism is

because of what happened in 2016 in the

UK with brexit and in the United States

with Donald Trump's win in November

we're now in 17 and attention is now on

France where there's going to be a

presidential election uh where Marine

Leen of the national front is Riding

High uh the Netherlands G valdez's party

is said to do very well there could

become the largest single party why has

Continental Europe now suddenly looking

like Ground Zero for this populist

moment what is it about the

Europeans well I I would actually be

very cautious not to um link all these

different elections and make it look

like if it there is a pattern that would

would necessarily lead us to have Leen

being elected or have a populist leader

in the Netherland I think there are some

uh similarities between these different

countries but generally speaking we have

to take into account the national

singularities and and in the case of

France I hear a lot of of people both in

the UK or in the US kind of predicting

that Marine Leen would win uh that we

are already kind of blind and and not

able to to see it coming I would be very

very prudent I would say however that

there is definitely this feeling that

there is no we need to

repoliticization that there are

elections but there is no choice this

kind of consensual uh Central uh right

Central left politics does not deliver

that actually technocracy is

anti-democratic and that the populist

leaders that is the great irony the

populist leaders are the real ones who

care about freedom of of expression and

democracy and that is I think the danger

Ana do you agree with Martin uh that we

should be wary before drawing

connections between what's happening in

Britain with brexit us with Trump France

with lean the Netherlands with vas and

then we'll come to the rest of the world

but just those those cases in particular

I totally agree with Martin because

basically what we're seeing in this rise

of populism is not just a right-wing

phenomena I mean there are many elements

in the Corbin the Corbin ISTA camp in in

the UK which used very similar kinds of

populism part of the Bernie Sanders

phenomena there was a lot of populism

there you can go to to to to parts of

Europe bee gilo in Italy he's certainly

not a right-winger sera in Greece

populism is not just a writing phenomena

it's a way of doing politics it's a way

of engaging with with an audience and

with a public which is not necessarily

far left far right it could be it could

be either side so so these connections

are very uh I mean it's a bit

superficial to say this is just a

rightwing thing especially as you see

the Uber populist Vladimir Putin in

Russia he he goes it both ways he

engages with the far left and the far

right as well Ruth yeah but something is

happening uh about drawing the

connections and making networks that's

going on which is very disturbing and to

me as a historian reminds me very much

of what happened in the late 1930s with

the axis where you see uh the reason for

example Steve Bannon was brought into

the Trump Administration is for his

Breitbart media which is beginning to

spread with European additions you have

a lot of meetings going on Marine Leen

and people coming to Putin people coming

to Trump and there's an attempt to kind

of set up this network of Accords and

and kind of like-minded meetings and and

propaganda you say like your minded

meetings what is connecting what do they

what do they think these parties and

leaders think connects them they think

uh they think what connects them is they

have a vision of the future and I wanted

to put the accent on the sense of this

this kind of Crisis narratives but also

the accent on freedom when Marine Le Pen

said brexit was an act of Courage it's a

freedom for people you see a lot of the

word use of the word freedom in the

Netherlands in Austria in the titles of

parties and it's this kind of Freedom

you know from government interference

freedom from uh invasion of non-whites

so you have all of that going on and

there are these conscious attempts to

make these connections now and so even

if we don't want to lump them all

together we have to realize that there

is this kind of process going on CH I

mean there's something there's something

else that's different today I mean we're

living in the post 911 era we're living

in the age of Isis and we're seeing the

rise of Muslim immigration so we see

growing Muslim populations in many of

the countries we've mentioned whether

it's France Britain or the Netherlands

and I think what's interesting and is

exactly right that some are some are

more leftwing populist some are

right-wing um one leader of Italy's

northernly described his party as

libertarian but also socialist what the

heck does that mean but the the thread

that ties these different groups

together is a fear of Islam and Muslims

and almost without exception which I

think is a a really interesting feature

and they see Islam as a civilizational

threat and they Define themselves in

opposition to that other how much of

this and I'm asking all of you guys but

starting with Shi how much of this is

driven uh by quote unquote identity

politics by this idea of the other

immigrants Islam Muslim civilizational

challenges and how much of it is driven

by economics by the idea that these are

the Left Behind of globalization these

are the losers from free trade which of

those Trends do you think is really

driving this I think one problem we have

in this debate is we try to say well

it's one or the other it's either racism

or economics when it's a mix and the two

reinforce each other right but I but I

think one thing you there's not a

natural link between being left behind

by globalization and seeing Islam as the

biggest threat to your way no I mean

automatic link between well the more you

feel you're left behind the more you're

going to try to find scapegoats the more

you're going to ask yourself well all

these Muslim immigrants and refugees who

are coming in are they going to take

away my jobs and when things aren't

going well in your own life then you

find Refuge let's say an identity

ideology or religion so I think the two

go do go together and I think it's

especially an issue in countries that

are quite secular in Europe that have a

strong identity of keeping religion

outside of the public sphere so you have

Muslim immigrants coming in and holding

on to some of their Traditions or

religious practices let let's see if

Martin agrees with you he's sitting in

perhaps the most quote unquote secular

country in

Europe yes well I I would say that

actually both identity politics and the

economic crisis have fueled this

phenomenon but they are not the roots of

it uh I would say that the root of it

and what basically connects all these

parties together is this feeling of

theconnection between part of the

population and quote unquote the elite

this is something that's quite common to

all around Continental Europe and and

and this is more about it's not about a

crisis of democracy it's not about I

don't want to participate but it's more

about I want to bypass uh the

traditional party I want to bypass the

elite and and talk directly to the

decision makers so it can take a form of

of a referendum that's that's the

strategy of the for naal in France

having a referendum more or less for

every law and and and can be with the

form of of Twitter and and social medias

in other countries so uh in my my

opinion and definitely in the case of

France they have economic and identity

politics have participated in the funon

but they are not really the explanatory

factor I want to jump in about the issue

of communication that Martin raised it

cannot be overstated how important this

kind of direct bond with the people is

whether you have a charismatic leader

like Trump uh the use of Twitter this

kind of sense that with communication

you're bypassing mainstream media you're

bypassing U mastodonic party structures

the mainstream media is a big bogeyman

for yes should go between scare quotes

um and I you know when Trump started

tweeting um and he would tweet at 3:00

a.m. at 3 p.m. it really it really was

very affecting and moving to many of his

supporters who felt like he was there

for them at all hours of the day and

night and it made the scripted um you

know we have these two huge parties in

the United States with these kind of you

know old-fashioned bureaucratic

communication structures and it made

them look very behind the times and and

through them uh through this way Trump

was able to forge a kind of

authoritarian Bond that's very

charismatic in nature and once those

bonds are formed they're very difficult

to break uh Shi you've written about

illiberal democracy and the and the

threat of ilal the concern around it

what do you mean by that explain what

the worry is and what is illiberal

democracy so illiberal Democrats are

those who believe in the Democratic

process they come to power through

Democratic means but they're illiberal

in the sense that they're they don't

really believe as much in personal

rights and freedoms and civil liberty

protections for minority rights so there

is the tension so liberalism and

democracy don't necessarily go together

but from my standpoint um respecting

Democratic outcomes is pretty critical

so I've been quite out outspoken against

the not my president hashtag thing in

the US or trying to get the Electoral

College in the US to overturn a

democratic outcome Donald Trump was

legitimately and democratically elected

through our existing rules regardless of

whether we like them or not so he is I'm

afraid to say um my and our let put this

if you view Donald Trump as some do not

just as ilit illegitimate but say a

fascist or a Neo fascist and if you

therefore start going back to history

Ruth mentioned this remind you of the

1930s I think the pope recently said

look what populism gave us in the past

I'm worried about another Hitler then

then where does that leave you in terms

of legitimacy and accepting some of

these parties the problem is the

scariest thing is that these people

don't need to transform their states

into a one party dictatorship and I'm an

expert on fascism and I have not called

Donald Trump a fascist because I want to

respect that difference he's an

authoritarian but what happens is

they're able to stretch the boundaries

of

democracy uh to to something

unrecognizable but it's not a it's not a

fascist regime and and the the danger is

also this kind of uh proc C of

intimidation of citizens which we're

seeing very heavily in the first days of

Trump's rule where people are afraid to

speak out and the boundaries are pushed

uh to what can be said and the kind of

tolerance for violence and rhetorical or

actual and you find yourself with a a

state that is transformed uh out of all

recognition but it's still quote

democracy and how does a media cope with

this phenomenon I'm going to come to

anela in a second but Martin to you

first we talked about the media being a

bogeyman for some of these populist

movements how does the media tackle the

likes of trump

Leen well I think that's that's that's

the point the media don't know how to do

uh W with this kind of of uh characters

because what what is usually do done is

is to criticize them for being this Neo

fascist or or this new authoritative

figures it doesn't impact their

popularity it actually doesn't help and

it it will rather participate in in the

feeling that these uh politicians are

the real anti- system which is what most

of the people that are voting for them

want so the media uh can only give new

arguments by kind of creating this war

on populism and and and make basically

confirm the idea that there is an elite

versus uh some courageous anti-stem uh

parties ano

I think the media is beginning to pay

the price for uh being too much

infotainment over the last 20 or 30

years I mean the media was uh you know

has allowed itself to become dumbed down

has felt this need to fill in so many

hours of broadcasts on on 24-hour cable

uh channels and on the internet to fill

so so much space that the media's

diluted itself and become very much

obsessed with celebrity obsessed with PR

obsessed with with Hollywood and

everything around it and much less focus

on what the media was what journalism

was supposed to do which was supposed to

speak truth to power and it allowed

itself to you know to be to be

captive be captivated by these bigger

than Life So Co bigger than life people

like Donald I mean Donald Trump

basically was just waiting to come along

for this moment in the media when the

media just needs a good story to tell

rather than actually looking for the

facts Trump is Trump would not have been

elected uh president in in another media

period and now the media is finally

having to look at itself in the mirror

and see how did we create a different

journalistic land landscape which

allowed this Ruth is saying that's not

true come in Ruth and then anel if you

look at the history of the media but you

you had musolini who came in and there

was no TV and he he's a very good

president in his time because he was a

journalist he was a master of slogans of

rallies and he learned about moving

images as being very effective so his

Twitter was was news reels and and

movies but you have a similar thing

where there are times in history where

you have these forces and these

anxieties and then a charismatic person

can come and coales these things and

Lead everybody and and get a form of

consensus and that's what we've got now

with Trump and a lot of people look at

the populis M say why can't the left do

populism the way right do the same

distrust of Bankers the same distrust of

the media the same anger at

globalization should also in theory fuel

leftwing parties and it hasn't really CA

in Greece maybe Bernie Sanders had his

moment in the US ber is a good right are

winning this Bernie Sanders is a good

good example of this and I think that um

my disagreements with him aside I think

that his model of tapping into that

anger is a model that should be a

followed closely and that was a real

contrast with Hillary Clinton as much as

Hillary Clinton used used populist

rhetoric it was never convincing because

you knew that deep down she didn't feel

it do you think in the current moment if

you're not fighting populists right-wing

populists with equal an equally angry

leftwing populism the right-wing

populist will win I think that's part of

but you can you can be angry but still

be smart you can be angry and still base

your anger on facts the two aren't

mutually exclusive ano you raised this

point at the start of the show that you

know populism is left and right and yet

wherever we look it's the right that

seems to be doing it better and winning

off the back of it why is the left so

bad at populism in the

west because there we're talking here

about two different kinds of populism

there's a populism which comes along

with the politics of hate with with the

nasty side of identity politics and that

is a lot of what we're seeing on the in

these right-wing movements and I think

there's also some nasty sides there were

some nasty Parts in the in the Sanders

you know the Bernie Bros and there's

some nasty streaks in the corista camp

and we can see SE in other parts of the

world so it's not necessarily nasis just

on the right wing but it is more

effective for the right wing because the

right wing have all these patriotism

blood and soil kind of narratives which

have always lent themselves to a certain

kind of populism but I to make make one

point here about what Shi say Shad is

very right there has to be a way of

linking to the anger and to the feelings

of people and it may be it's another

form of populism it's a more benign form

of populism it's a more positive for

populism does not necessarily have to be

like the Pope said the thing was going

to lead to Hitler I mean Hitler's

biggest enemy church was a was a

populist as well so populism is not

necessarily a bad thing when it's

married with hate and with fear with all

the

phobias that that's when it's it's

really worrying yeah um Shi is so right

about harnessing the power of emotion

the power of Charisma the the center

left has to fight back with

appropriating some of the things that

the center right and the right has done

and I do want want to say something that

picks up what you at the beginning of

the program about Hillary Clinton you

know she did have uh something that was

bigger than all of us it was female

power and you cannot underestimate what

an inspiring thing it was to have a

woman who T has fought her whole career

for children's rights for for women's

rights and yet the majority of her

fellow white women voted for Donald

Trump it's true but it's a very but it

set as you see from the women's March it

set off a whole Cascade of otion and

that's an example of something positive

but the the enormous uh misogyny that

her campaign raised is also something to

be aware of because a lot of these

movements Marine Leen not withstanding

as the female leader they are an attempt

to turn the clock back and have European

white Christian male privilege upheld

let me ask you this a lot of viewers

around the world will be listening to

you point out that you've studied

fascism extremism on this show so far

you've said he reminds you of the 1930s

and melini is a good

model that will worry a lot of people if

that's the case what comes

next I I think uh I think fighting

fighting back with appropriate what I

said before what comes next is to find

appropriate ways of of making an

alternate Mo alternate model palatable

and appealing but before you get to that

stage things are going to get worse

before they get better is what you're

see I believe they will and I have spent

a lot of time writing things

that are designed to make people look at

what we have in front of us that Donald

Trump for example is an authoritarian

and he cannot be combed including by the

media with the usual rules he's changed

the rules of the game and that's an

opportunity of for Freedom you can

change it as well uh on other side

briefly you know on this point I mean

most Americans my age haven't lived

under an under

authoritarianism they take a lot of this

for granted and understandably so but I

think what the one a positive of the

Donald Trump phenomenon is that I think

now a lot of people have to look Inward

and they have to not take it for granted

and liberal democracy or just democracy

or just the things that we're used to in

terms of minority rights are things that

you have to fight for and I think that

if if if all of this can lead to that

realization maybe that will shake us

from our complacency and Sh final word

to you are these populist movements

going away anytime soon is this a a

long-term or a short-term

phenomenon well I think that we should

always bear in mind that the same

electorate which voted in Donald Trump a

a few months ago eight years ago voted

in Barack Obama so there's a you know

the pendulum is at work here the

properties movements never went away

they were always here but I think that

we are in better shape than we were in

the 1920 1930s to to face them and I'm

still optimistic about democracy it's

still I think as Churchill said the

least bad of of the least worst of all

the of all the various options and I

think that the United States can survive

for even eight years under Donald Trump

we'll have to leave it there thank you

all for joining me on upfront I

appreciate

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