Avoid The Toxic 5 If You Have Long COVID with Dr. Evan Hirsch

Summary

In this episode of the Energy Blueprint podcast, host Ari Whitten interviews Dr. Evan Hirsch, an expert in chronic fatigue and the creator of the Energy MD Method. They discuss the evolution of Dr. Hirsch's approach to treating chronic fatigue, ME/CFS, and Long COVID, emphasizing the importance of addressing the 'toxic five': heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. The conversation also touches on the role of brain retraining, the challenges of testing for these conditions, and the significance of lifestyle factors in recovery.

Takeaways

• 🧠 Dr. Evan Hirsch discusses the importance of addressing the 'toxic five' in treating chronic fatigue: heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma.
• 🔬 Initially focusing on deficiencies and toxicities, Dr. Hirsch has shifted towards recognizing the root causes and their interplay, rather than isolated treatment.
• 🌐 The 'toxic five' are seen as interconnected, where addressing one aspect, like mold, can release other toxins, necessitating a holistic treatment approach.
• 💡 Dr. Hirsch emphasizes the significance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue, advocating for brain retraining as a critical component of recovery.
• 📉 He has moved towards simplifyifying treatment, focusing on what's most impactful for the patient and reducing reliance on extensive testing.
• 🩺 The role of chronic infections in ME/CFS is acknowledged, but Dr. Hirsch notes their connection to other toxins, suggesting a complex relationship.
• 🏠 Mold exposure is often linked to home environments, with testing recommended to ensure a non-toxic living situation for recovery.
• 🌿 For removing toxins, natural binders like bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, and cilantro are used, moving away from aggressive chelation therapies.
• 🧪 Dr. Hirsch critiques the over-reliance on lab tests, advocating for a return to clinical judgment based on history and symptoms due to the imperfections in testing.
• 💉 Long COVID is compared to ME/CFS, with treatments focusing on similar detoxification and nervous system retraining strategies, along with addressing viral persistence.

Q & A

What are the 'toxic five' that Dr. Evan Hirsch discusses in the podcast?

The 'toxic five' refers to a combination of heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma, which Dr. Hirsch identifies as the most significant contributors to chronic fatigue and related conditions.

How has Dr. Hirsch's approach to treating chronic fatigue changed over the years?

Initially, Dr. Hirsch focused on identifying all possible causes of an individual's condition. Over time, he realized that not all causes carry equal weight and has since focused more on the 'toxic five' and simplifying treatment approaches.

Why does Dr. Hirsch emphasize the importance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue?

Dr. Hirsch emphasizes nervous system dysfunction because it can lead to immune system dysfunction, which in turn affects the body's ability to address infections and other toxicities. He has incorporated brain retraining and nervous system retraining techniques into his treatment approach.

What is the significance of treating chronic infections in the context of chronic fatigue?

Chronic infections are significant because they can interact with heavy metals, chemicals, and molds, creating a 'toxic ball' that feeds off each other and complicates treatment. Addressing one without the others can lead to the release of other toxins, potentially worsening symptoms.

How does Dr. Hirsch view the role of testing in treating chronic fatigue?

Dr. Hirsch has moved towards treating the 'toxic five' without extensive testing, as he found that most patients had all or most of these issues. He now focuses on treatment and uses testing later to assess progress, reducing costs and complexity for patients.

What is the connection between mold exposure and chronic fatigue according to Dr. Hirsch?

Mold exposure is often linked to chronic fatigue because mold toxins can be stored in body tissues and organs, causing a range of symptoms. Dr. Hirsch recommends testing to ensure patients are not living in moldy environments and uses binders to help remove mold toxins from the body.

What are some of the binders Dr. Hirsch uses to treat mold and heavy metal toxicity?

Dr. Hirsch uses binders such as bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, humic and folic acid, and zeolite to treat mold and heavy metal toxicity. These binders help to remove toxins from the body through excretion.

How does Dr. Hirsch approach the treatment of long COVID?

Dr. Hirsch treats long COVID by addressing the same underlying issues as chronic fatigue syndrome, such as heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. He also incorporates natural antivirals and other treatments to target the SARS-CoV-2 virus and spike protein.

What is the role of brain retraining in Dr. Hirsch's treatment approach?

Brain retraining plays a significant role in Dr. Hirsch's approach by helping patients move into a parasympathetic state, which is more conducive to healing. Techniques such as mindfulness, breath work, and cognitive therapy are used to retrain the nervous system and improve recovery.

How does Dr. Hirsch integrate brain retraining into his treatment program?

Dr. Hirsch integrates brain retraining into his program by introducing it either at the beginning for sensitive patients or around three to six months into the treatment for others. The goal is to help patients manage their thoughts and emotions better, which supports their overall healing process.

Outlines

00:00

🔍 Early Approaches to Chronic Fatigue

Dr. Evan Hirsch initially focused on identifying all possible causes of an individual's chronic fatigue, influenced by his functional and environmental medicine training. He categorized causes into deficiencies and toxicities, totaling around 38. However, he later realized that not all causes were equally significant. He identified the 'toxic five'—heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma—as the most critical. These were not initially seen as the primary root causes but became central to understanding the underlying issues like hormonal deficiencies and mitochondrial dysfunction.

05:00

🌟 The Evolution of Treatment Philosophy

Dr. Hirsch's approach evolved to emphasize the importance of addressing the 'toxic five' collectively rather than individually. He recognized the interconnectedness of these toxins and the need for a comprehensive treatment strategy that includes binders to remove toxins and support the body's natural detoxification processes. His experience led him to simplify treatment plans for cost-effectiveness and to focus on the most impactful interventions. Additionally, he discovered the significance of nervous system dysfunction and incorporated brain retraining techniques into his treatment programs, observing improved outcomes when clients engaged in these practices.

10:02

📉 Reducing Reliance on Diagnostic Testing

Dr. Hirsch shifted towards less diagnostic testing, having observed that most patients presented with a combination of the 'toxic five' over time. He concluded that it was more beneficial to focus on treatment with targeted supplements rather than continuous testing. This change was influenced by the imperfections in testing methods and the realization that many causes could be inferred from patient history and symptoms. He also noted the over-reliance on tests by some practitioners and the need to balance test results with clinical judgment.

15:03

🏠 Mold Exposure and Its Impact on Health

Mold exposure was identified as a prevalent issue, often stemming from water damage in homes or workplaces. Dr. Hirsch emphasized the importance of testing for mold in living environments and the challenges in treating patients living in moldy conditions. He discussed the long-term storage of mold toxins in body tissues and the necessity of using binders to aid in their removal. The conversation also touched on the commonality of mold exposure and the potential for toxins to persist in the body for years, even after the initial exposure.

20:03

🌿 Natural Approaches to Remove Toxins

The discussion turned to the use of natural binders like bentonite clay, activated charcoal, chlorella, and others to remove toxins from the body. Dr. Hirsch shared his experiences with various binders, including the challenges of using prescription medications like cholestyramine. He highlighted the importance of ensuring that toxins are effectively removed without causing redistribution within the body, which can lead to further health complications.

25:04

🧠 The Role of Brain Retraining in Recovery

Dr. Hirsch discussed the significance of brain retraining in his treatment approach, noting its impact on patient recovery. He recognized the influence of past traumas and stress on the autonomic nervous system and the benefits of techniques that promote a parasympathetic state. He integrated various methods, including mindfulness and breathwork, to help patients modulate their nervous system responses and improve healing. The conversation underscored the importance of addressing both the cognitive and sensory aspects of health to facilitate recovery.

30:05

💉 Controversies Surrounding COVID-19 and Vaccines

The conversation delved into the controversial topics of COVID-19 persistence in the body and the effects of COVID-19 vaccines. Dr. Hirsch shared his observations on long COVID, its treatment, and the potential for viral persistence, comparing it to other viral infections like Epstein-Barr virus. He also addressed the issue of adverse effects from COVID-19 vaccines, acknowledging the evidence of harm in certain individuals and the need for a balanced perspective on vaccine safety and efficacy.

35:07

🌱 Holistic Recovery from Chronic Conditions

Dr. Hirsch concluded the discussion by emphasizing the holistic nature of recovery from chronic conditions like long COVID and chronic fatigue syndrome. He highlighted the importance of a multifaceted approach that includes addressing toxins, infections, and nervous system dysfunction. He also stressed the value of brain retraining techniques in facilitating recovery and the need for individualized treatment plans that consider each patient's unique circumstances and responses to interventions.

Keywords

💡Functional Medicine

Functional Medicine is a holistic approach to healthcare that focuses on identifying and addressing the root causes of disease. In the script, the speaker mentions their training in functional and environmental medicine, emphasizing its importance in understanding the multiple causes of an individual's health issues. It's a key concept as it underpins the speaker's approach to treating chronic fatigue and related conditions.

💡Deficiencies and Toxicities

These terms refer to the lack of necessary nutrients and the presence of harmful substances in the body, respectively. The speaker categorizes the causes of health issues into these two groups, highlighting about 38 different causes. The concept is integral to understanding the complexity of health problems discussed in the video, as it shapes the speaker's strategy for treatment.

💡Toxic Five

The 'Toxic Five' is a term coined by the speaker to describe a group of particularly harmful factors: heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma. This concept is central to the video's message as it represents the speaker's evolved understanding of the primary causes of chronic health issues, which they now consider as root causes rather than mere contributors.

💡Mitochondrial Dysfunction

Mitochondrial Dysfunction refers to the impaired function of mitochondria, the energy-producing structures within cells. The script mentions it in the context of being a cause of hormonal deficiencies and fatigue. It's a critical concept as it links the toxicities discussed to the body's energy production and overall health.

💡Nervous System Dysfunction

Nervous System Dysfunction is a broad term that encompasses various conditions affecting the nervous system, including the brain and spinal cord. The speaker discusses the importance of addressing nervous system issues in the treatment process, recognizing it as a significant factor in chronic fatigue. It's a key theme in the video as it influences the speaker's treatment approach and the incorporation of brain retraining techniques.

💡Brain Retraining

Brain Retraining is a therapeutic approach aimed at changing thought patterns and behaviors to improve mental health. In the script, the speaker discusses the benefits of brain retraining for patients with chronic fatigue, emphasizing its role in recovery. This concept is significant as it represents a shift towards considering mental and emotional aspects in the treatment of physical symptoms.

💡Long COVID

Long COVID refers to the prolonged symptoms experienced by some individuals after recovering from the acute phase of COVID-19. The speaker addresses this condition in the context of chronic fatigue, highlighting similarities in treatment approaches. It's a relevant keyword as it connects the broader discussion to a contemporary health issue.

💡Heavy Metals

Heavy Metals are metallic chemical elements that can be toxic at certain levels. The script discusses heavy metals as part of the 'Toxic Five,' emphasizing their role in health issues. Understanding heavy metals' impact is crucial as it informs detoxification strategies and the speaker's overall treatment philosophy.

💡Mold Toxins

Mold Toxins are harmful substances produced by mold, which can cause a range of health problems. The speaker mentions mold toxins as a significant cause of health issues, often stored in body tissues. This keyword is important as it ties into the broader discussion of environmental toxins and their impact on health.

💡Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is a complex, long-term disorder characterized by extreme fatigue and other symptoms. The script frequently refers to CFS as the central health issue being discussed, with various treatment approaches and concepts directly related to managing this condition. It's a core keyword as it is the main focus of the video's discussion.

💡Environmental Medicine

Environmental Medicine is a field that studies how environmental factors affect human health. The speaker mentions their training in this field, indicating its influence on their approach to identifying and treating health issues. This keyword is important for understanding the speaker's comprehensive view of health, which includes considering external factors.

Highlights

The initial focus on finding all causes of an individual's health issues has evolved to recognizing that not all causes weigh equally.

The 'toxic five' - heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and nervous system dysfunction or trauma - are identified as key contributors to health issues.

The importance of addressing the root cause of hormonal deficiencies, mitochondrial dysfunction, and vitamin deficiencies is emphasized.

Lifestyle habits such as diet, water intake, movement, and sleep are considered deficiencies that contribute to health issues.

The interplay between toxins and the need for a comprehensive approach to treatment is discussed.

The realization that infections cannot be eradicated without addressing heavy metals, chemicals, and molds is highlighted.

The shift from extensive testing to a focus on treatment based on history and symptoms is explained.

The limitations and unreliability of certain medical tests are critiqued, advocating for a more cautious approach to their interpretation.

The significance of nervous system dysfunction in chronic fatigue and the benefits of brain retraining are explored.

The role of chronic infections in ME/CFS and the challenges of treating them are discussed.

The impact of mold exposure on health and the importance of addressing it in treatment are highlighted.

The use of binders for removing toxins from the body and their effectiveness is examined.

The potential overuse and harm caused by the COVID-19 vaccine is acknowledged.

The concept of 'long post-covid vaccination syndrome' and its treatment are introduced.

The integration of brain retraining in the treatment process and its significance in recovery are discussed.

The importance of treating the body holistically, including addressing mindset and belief systems, is emphasized.

The practical steps for introducing brain retraining techniques in treatment programs are outlined.

The top-down and bottom-up approaches to brain retraining and their roles in recovery are explained.

Transcripts

when I first started it was all about

finding all the causes that an

individual had you know I knew from my

functional medicine environmental

medicine training that that was going to

be really important but what I didn't

realize was that they didn't they

weren't all weight equally you know so

when somebody had deficiencies you know

I kind of categorized the causes into

deficiencies and toxicities and at this

point we're looking at about 38 of those

but really the most important ones are

what I now call the toxic five which are

a combination of the heavy metals

chemicals molds infections and nervous

system dysfunction or trauma so before

those were in there but they weren't as

important and they weren't I didn't see

them as kind of like the root root cause

of all this stuff hey this is Ari

welcome back to the energy blueprint

podcast with me today for the I believe

the third time is my friend Dr Evan

Hirsch who is a world-renowned fatigue

expert best-selling author and

professional speaker he's the creator of

the energy MD method the science-backed

and clinically proven four-step process

to resolving chronic fatigue mecfs and

long covid naturally through his

bestselling book podcast and 100% online

practice he's helped thousands of people

around the world and in this episode we

are going to be talking all about his

approach to resolving chronic fatigue

mecfs and long covid as well as kind of

reflect ing back on years ago when I met

him I think five or six years ago and

some of the initial podcast that we did

at that time and some of the things that

he and I talked about in private

conversations about his uh approach to

to dealing with

mecfs and how his views and how his

approach to certain things to the

treatment of mecfs and chronic fatigue

uh has changed over that time and

differences in how he sees different

therapies and based on how he's seen

hundreds or thousands of patients uh

respond to different things and what's

worked and and what hasn't and what's

worked consistently and What U maybe

leads to uh variable results and

unpredictable results and so on so uh a

lot of good insights here and I think if

you are dealing with severe chronic

fatigue or complex chronic illness or

long covid I think that you'll glean a

lot of great insights from this so

without any further Ado enjoy this

episode I think number three with Dr

Evan hir Dr HS welcome back to the

show all right thanks so much for having

me on and by at this point you can call

me Evan awesome well I do in person but

you know in the in the podcast I always

like to make sure some people have a

thing where yeah we we're on a firstname

basis outside of podcast but some some

people have actually told me okay but

during the podcast I don't want you to

call me by my first name I want you to

call me doctor so and so so I always

assume that's the case I don't want to

be on the you're smart on the side of

caution rather than coming across

disrespectful to somebody who wants to

be addressed in their professional U by

their professional

credential so um Evan it's been what at

least four years maybe six years since I

had you on the podcast for the first for

the first time and I think we met in

person at at M share Summit maybe six

years ago five six years ago something

along those lines and um

and we've since had a really nice

friendship ever since then we've had a

lot of really nice discussions on and

offline and I've also interviewed you

for the part for the Superhuman energy

Summit I did several years back and I'm

curious you've been in the trenches

treating me CFS treating people with

chronic fatigue for many many years now

um and I'm curious how you know sort of

on the big picture and then we can zero

in on you know more specific things to

talk about but in in the big picture how

has your approach and your your thinking

your Paradigm your understanding of the

causes and best treatments for people

with chronic fatigue changed over the

last five or six years since we

met so when I first started it was all

about finding all the causes that an

individual had you know I knew from my

functional medicine environmental

medicine training that that was going to

be really important but what I didn't

realize was that they didn't they

weren't all weighed equally you know so

when somebody had deficiencies you know

I kind of categorized the causes into

deficiencies and toxicities and at this

point we're looking at about 38 of those

but really the most important ones are

what I now call the toxic 5 which are a

combination of the heavy metals

chemicals molds infections and nervous

system dysfunction or trauma so before

those were in there but they weren't as

important and they weren't I didn't see

them as kind of like the root root cause

of all this stuff you know is like what

is actually causing the hormones to be

deficient what's causing the

mitochondrial dysfunction what's causing

vitamins to be def deficient you know

and so um the lifestyle habits I kind of

put his deficiencies like not enough

good food not enough good water not

enough good movement not enough good

sleep

but those other deficiencies I didn't

realize were so dependent on you know

how severe these toxicities were so that

was probably the biggest thing that I've

kind of moved towards and then the other

thing is just trying to simplify things

as much as possible um you know because

when you're addressing a lot of

different causes and you know it can

cost a lot of money you know for people

especially with the the amount of

supplements oftentimes they're spending

more for supplements than they are for

my time and so just trying to figure out

how to optimize things um as much as

possible and then I guess the last thing

the third thing I'll say is I didn't

realize how important nervous system

dysfunction was and brain retraining was

and so you know I personally have kind

of gone down that path and then um and

had and seen the results you know so now

when I have not just for me but for my

my clients as well and so when they

joined the program I talked to them

about doing some nervous system

retraining and so we have some

components in our program and we're

incorporating more all the time and then

we also work in tandem with some of the

other brain ret trinings that are out

there but we always find that people do

better when they're working on their

mindset when they're doing the brain

retraining they get better

faster okay I'm overflowing with

questions but let's let's start

with um chronic infections so I know

that you know many years ago when when

we spoke

this was sort of the the foremost thing

in your mind that was affecting people

this was one of the biggest causes uh is

that something that you still consider

to be one of the dominant things going

on with people with mecfs and and I

guess you could say chronic fatigue more

broadly it is but I didn't understand

kind of the interplay between the heavy

metals the chemicals the molds and then

all also the nervous system dysfunction

and so that really um I've definitely

improved my understanding around that

you know and so often times now now I

kind of see all these toxins as kind of

like a a toxic ball where when you start

to pull one thing out of the ball

they're all kind of attached to each

other they're feeding off of each other

they're you know swapping DNA with each

other at least the infections are um and

so when you start to pull mold out or

heavy metals or chemicals and the

infections are attached all of a sudden

the infections are released and so you

know I used to kind of go after one

thing at a time and now what I found is

that I kind of have to have a little bit

of everything um on board in terms of

like treatments and so that when mold is

released there's a binder on board to

bind it up when certain infections are

released there's something on board in

order to grab that and take it out of

the body so I think I'm kind of seeing

it more holistically when it comes to

some of those toxins but definitely the

infections play a big role um and then

now we've got the newest C on the Block

which is co MH yeah long so we we'll I

know that you in our discussion prior to

to recording today you wanted to flag

long CO as something to get into and I

know that's an area of specialization in

recent years since Co um so we'll get

into that I want to touch a bit more on

chronic infection so it's interesting

that you said that because my

observation over the

years is

that certain people that I observed who

got a diagnosis of some particular

chronic infection whether um cytomegalo

virus or Epstein bar virus or or bellia

or something like that I saw so many

people I mean that this this pattern

became very clear to me that there there

were people who were insisting that this

was their diagnosis this was the cause

of their problems that they they had

this infection and and this was the

driving force for all their symptoms and

I saw them just chase after it for years

in many cases just with one you know

looking for the magical chemical

substance or magical supplement cocktail

that's going to remove this infection

and cure all their symptoms and I I have

to say I just almost never saw it

actually be successful um it seemed to

me that there were just it was like

chasing a a ghost like yeah okay I took

this this chemical this antiviral drug

or this supplement this herb herbal

concoction and it seemed to work it

seemed to help me for a period of time

and then my infection came back and I

had another flare of this infection and

uh another you know period of time where

I was debilitated with chronic fatigue

is that something that you've observed

as well and and I mean it seems to mesh

with the sort of the new paradigm that

you're presenting which is that that's

just sort of one piece of the puzzle and

it's really a part of this larger toxic

ball that you have to address in its

entirety rather than just this one piece

absolutely yeah that's a definitely a

good observation and I've seen the same

thing so you can't get rid of infections

if you have heavy metals chemicals and

molds on board you just can't you need a

somewhat intact immune system in order

to be able to help you get rid of that

infection you can't just go after the

infection slam it with with whatever the

immune system has to help you and the

immune system can't help you if it's

being distracted by the heavy metals

chemicals molds whatever or ner or

nervous system dysfunction which leads

to immune system dysfunction those

things will not allow you to get rid of

the infection the other thing too that I

wanted to mention that's that's really

changed a lot is that I test so much

less now and the reality is is that when

I used to do testing I would test people

for all of these different causes you

know every 3 or six months and and I

found is that over the course of about a

year or so pretty much everybody had all

of the toxic 5 or toxic four at that

point coming out the heavy metals

chemicals molten infections they all

came out at some point so at this point

I'm like we need to treat all of these

things and a better use of your time

energy and money is to put that money

towards the supplements that are going

to do that and then we can test later

and see how much is

left so that's been a really interesting

shift for me too and a lot of that comes

from the idea or the fact that all

testing is imperfect I think you talk a

lot about this I was I was just going to

say this is something that I've touched

on in a number of of of podcasts maybe

some people listening are sick of

hearing me talk about it um but you know

my experience is there there is this

really big gap and I'm really glad you

brought this subject up but there's this

this gap

between the people's perception of these

tests as being extremely Cutting Edge

and and sciency versus the reality which

is that when you dig into the actual

evidence uh and that the research that

underlies many of these tests that exist

in the market you realize that a lot of

them are just being created by these

for-profit companies to sell tests to

practitioners and ultimately

patients that really have very weak

underlying evidence to support their

clinical validity to support even that

they are accurate even that they are

legitimately measuring the thing that

they claim to be measuring and you know

I mean I could tell you many many

stories but there's lots of examples

that I've either experienced personally

or read from other practitioners and

friends who have done split testing and

things like that um but you know food

intolerance testing you can take two

samples from the same person literally

at the at at the same time put different

write different names on them send them

off to the lab and get two totally

different sets of results um you can get

uh you can you can get saliva hormone

testing and compare it to blood testing

from the same person to urine testing

from the same person all the samples

taken at the same time and these

different tests show you know huge

disparities in the the levels of

different hormones one will show high

one will show low levels of the same

hormone from the same person taken at

the same time um I've done microbiome

tests I've done multiple microbiome

tests with my own stool samples that are

the same stool sample but using

different microbiome Technologies and I

get

reports with radically different levels

of the same species of bacteria and you

know when when

[Music]

you when you get a report of let's say

all these tests with

10 or 20 or 50 pages of reports of all

these different markers that have been

measured in you our brains go wow this

is really amazing data this this this

they figured out exactly what's going on

in my body now I know exactly what to do

about all these specific problems that

are the cause of my

symptoms except when you start to do

this kind of split testing that I'm

describing and you start to look at the

evidence underlying these tests you

realize like actually this is 50 pages

of data that I don't even know if I can

trust if if it's accurate or not and and

obviously I'm painting with broad brush

Strokes here there are many types of

tests that are accurate with data that

you can trust but a lot of the landscape

of of functional medicine tests are

these kind of questionable validity

questionable accuracy and and whether

you can actually trust that data or

not I

agree and you know medical school we

learned that 90% of your diagnosis is

going to be history and symptoms and 10%

is going to be physical exam and Labs

right and we forget that you know when I

when I lecture to Physicians I tell them

if I if you lean too hard on your

Laboratory test you're going to fall

over right they're just not they're not

a a place to stick your your pole in the

sand and say okay this is this is the

hill I'm going to die on you're you're

going to die very quickly unfortunately

and so I I found I found that it's

actually you know it's it's more

beneficial to just treat these things

because of that information and so and I

do find that 90% of the 38 different

causes that we're looking at can

actually be determined by history and

symptoms right and then it's and then

it's always about like what's most

important to treat and let's focus on

those things right um yeah I agree okay

um one other thing that I I wanted to

ask you about is Ozone um this is

something that I know when we first met

you were you were really raving to me

about the benefits of ozone and then I

remember speaking to you maybe two or

three years later and you were already

starting to change your view on ozone in

that you found that the if I remember

correctly you correct me if I'm wrong

but I think what I remember you telling

me was that you found the response to be

very unpredict

some people would benefit greatly from

it other people would react in a very

negative way um I'm I'm curious what

what sort of your latest take is on the

benefits of ozone and if you use it in

your

practice so ozone

hyperbarics these are all oxygen Pro

oxygenation techniques where you're

basically trying to increase oxygenation

in the body high do IV vitamin C is also

like this and what ends up happening is

that you can increase mitochondria

significantly and so that can be

beneficial for increasing energy but it

also is a bit of an indiscriminate

antimicrobial so the main reason why I

stopped using it was because as they say

in South America no Bal la like it's not

worth it and a lot of that had to do

with the fact that as I started getting

better in my functional medicine

practice and I started seeing sicker and

sicker patients and started getting more

into mecf chronic fatigue syndrome and

seeing more people with infections more

and more people got a lot of die off and

they got a lot worse when I would give

them IV ozone and this is Ozone that's

mixed with um the blood and then

injected back into the body and you know

I had one person who almost had like a

psychotic break because there are

certain infections that are associated

with different moods can cause different

symptoms you know there were studies

years ago of people with schizophrenia

who responded really well to doxy

cycling like there is this association

between mood and infection and that

really gave me pause and I found that

with a number of people that you know I

was not preparing them appropriately for

the die off that they were going to

occur that was potentially going to

occur and it was very unpredictable and

then there's the cost Associated so you

know thousands of dollars of getting

these IVs and not knowing or the

hyperbaric oxygen and not knowing

whether or not it's going to work for

some people it it potentially could be

helpful but it was only usually

marginally

effective and and for other people

really they really didn't notice

anything at all and oftentimes they got

worse yeah interesting so let's let's

talk about mold a little bit um the

source of mold exposure for most people

you're finding is the home environment

is you know previous water damage or

living in certain climates where the

home gets moldy and then people get

exposed that way or are you finding

other other roots of exposure as

well yeah it's mainly home environment

sometimes it can be work um you know the

adage is that upwards of 50% of all

buildings in First World countries have

water damage and most of those have mold

um and it doesn't always have to be in

damp climates though mold does grow at

greater than 5 55%

humidity um you know the joke is when

people say you know I'm going to move to

Arizona because you know there's no mold

there and it's and the joke is that are

you going to have indoor plumbing right

because if you live in a home that has

ever had any sort of water damage

whether it's a roof leak or a flood in

the basement or a busted pipe um you

have potential to get mold from that

place and if you got if you had water

dam or if you had exposure when you were

like 5 years old if you weren't taking

like a binder and glutathione for a

significant time after that or an AAL

cysteine if you can't glutathione then

you still have that mold in your body

even 50 years later so and plus you know

the amount of times that people move I

mean I when I I got my mold when I was

in medical school and there were cats

that peed on cardboard boxes in the

basement and then I put those boxes

unknown to me in my car and drove across

country right so that's one of the ways

that I got it but we move around so much

and it's it's just so common to get it

and so the most one of the most

important tests that I do recommend that

people get is to make sure they're not

living in a moldy environment and this

test is also imperfect right so but that

is one of the often times hardest ways

um most challenges that I have in

getting people better is when they're

living in a moldy environment so we try

to always do our best to make sure that

that's not an issue for them

yeah if mold is being stored in the body

for many years where in the body is it

being stored so it's in the tissues you

know oftentimes organs fat

um in general and so it does require

more of a binder in order to catch it

because otherwise it's just getting

recirculated okay and the so even over

years the body wouldn't doesn't really

have the capacity to remove some of

these mot toxins and when you say mold

is in the body we're we're referring to

mot toxins right rather than the living

mold yeah I mean sometimes there are the

actual spores the DNA but more than not

it's the mot toxins that we're talking

about the toxins that are produced by

the molds

um I forgot your question so as far as

removing those from the body basically

the body has limited capacity to do it

on its own and and we have to rely on

external binders

basically for the most part but if you

are sweating at on a regular basis and

you are drinking 3 L of water a day I

mean there's certain habits that can

definitely help you know and if you're

consuming a lot of

vegetables um you know often times you

are going to have some benefit but for

the people that I see you have to

remember that I've got a tainted

population because all of these people

have chronic fatigue chronic fatigue

syndrome or long covid right and so

there have been significant cases where

you know we start to remove mold out of

the body and that's really the lever

that makes such a significant difference

for these people and so and often times

when you start feel badly that's really

when you stop moving around you stop

exercising you stop sweating right um

you know my wife believes that a lot of

the reason why she got sick is when she

moved from Texas where she was sweating

all the time as soon as you walk out the

front door to Olympia Washington where

the temperature is between 40 and 70

degrees all year round right and so she

wasn't sweating anymore and so she

thinks that was a big reason why she got

sick and so there are some of those

things um that can help but you know the

people that I see they all have

significant mold

exposure uh several years ago this was

um actually I remember it was just

before the covid outbreak which is

probably the worst timing possible uh I

discovered that there was water damage

from the bathroom uh right next to my

master bedroom in the house that I was

living

in and when we went into the walk-in

closet and we pushed aside bunch of our

jackets and stuff that we rarely

touched you look to the wall behind it

and the whole wall was covered in mold

and it had been there

for months growing definitely for for at

least a few

months and uh and that was 8 feet away

from where I was sleeping each night so

I was inhaling all of these mold spores

for for months um and around that time I

got a respiratory tract infection which

I think was right at the beginning of of

covid I think it was covid it was one of

the the most severe infections that I've

ever had and I was left for over a month

I had very very low energy levels and a

really severe cough and it was only and

then we got news of covid like a month

or two later um and that's when I put

the pieces together that that's what it

probably was um so I think that I had

this mold exposure that I was getting

for months that was weakening me and

then I got exposed to covid and that

that was not a not a very good

combination but uh when I was dealing

with that mold toxicity the physici that

I was working with prescrib me chest

tyramine which is uh um which is a a

prescription

medication and I I forget is it used for

it's treating uh cholesterol or treating

bile or something like that what's the

the the previous use for it exactly yeah

it's an old it's not really used so much

anymore but it's a bios sequestrant and

so it uh the way that it was removing

cholesterol out of the body is it was

binding up the cholesterol the fat in

the bile and taking it out of the body

okay so so that's what um that physician

prescribed to me and I and I think it

was relatively effective the barring you

know there's some questionable results

from uh some of these MotoX tests some

showed high or low levels depending on

which one we did but um but definitely

the levels went down over time and and

my body was got rid of most of these mot

toxins um I'm curious what you found to

be really effective in terms of binders

for treating mold what do you typically

use with

patients so I'll comment on the chamine

and then I'll go into that so um you

know thyine if you can get a doctor to

prescribe it for you and I don't

prescribe anymore you know I work online

as a coach now so I can help people

across state and National lines um but

it can be helpful it usually tastes

awful and often times it has to be

compounded and combined with sugar in

order to get rid of the taste and so I

can confirm it does taste awful and the

texture is is actually worse than the

The Taste I got like an unflavored one

but it's really grainy it's it's almost

like drinking sand and it kind of stays

in in your throat and it's it's kind of

an awful taste uh

texture yeah and oftentimes it's really

constipating and so of you know or cause

stomach aches and so a lot of people

can't tolerate it so I'm glad you did

because if you can then it's a good

treatment but 95% of the mot toxins will

be can be addressed with the following

combination banide clay activated

charcoal and

chlorella so that's what study have

shown and so that's a combination that

we use often times we're also

using um humic and folic acid or we're

using um

Zite and that seems to work well

excellent um as far as heavy metals

which is another component of this toxic

ball um I guess two two questions one is

related to binders I suspect it's some

of those same binders that you just

mentioned that sort of have that Dual

Purpose maybe of a addressing mot toxins

as well as dressing addressing heavy

metals um but I'm curious also if you

have sort of more General thoughts on

heavy heavy metals and the role that

they're playing uh in chronic fatigue

and and what you've been what you found

over the years with your

patients yeah so we we're also using a

combination of natural substances in

order to remove the heavy metals from

the body so combination of things like

chlorella and cilantro and all which is

like a

seaweed um and you know what what I used

to do you know um was was utilizing

things prescriptions like dmsa when back

when I prescribed and what I found was

that there was a lot of redistribution

happening

so that means that you know the heavy

metals were being moved from one part of

the body to another and often times it

would end up in the brain and then

people would have memory issues and it

wasn't pretty so I generally you know I

go a lot slower now I'm often talking

about removing these toxins at a rate

that people can tolerate and I spent a

lot of time in step three of my step

four process which is opening up

drainage Pathways or exit Pathways to

make sure that we can get rid of this

crap so that it doesn't get

redistributed so that's kind of the

really big thing you know if you're

going to go and you're trying to remove

heavy metals with IVs or with

prescriptions you know I generally I've

seen too many side effects from those

things and so I no longer recommend it

interesting I I I it's been several

years since I explored the whole topic

of detox detoxification in in depth and

it's not something that's been a a great

area of interest of mine um but what I

recall was a lot of controversy among

experts experts who specialize in that

area among which of these binders are

best and sort of some of these people

are

saying

um things like chlorella and

cilantro and alphalipoic acid are I

think they call them I think they use

the term uh reversible binders if I

remember or they're sort of temporary

binders I guess you could think of them

as where they sort of grab these these

toxins these heavy metals but they only

hold on to them sort of more weekly for

a shorter period of time and so

therefore there is a higher risk of them

grabbing the chemicals from the cell

going into the blood and redistributing

them to somewhere else and some of these

people were advocating the use of uh

dmsa and um what's the other one E I

want to Eda BTA yeah dmps and dmps thank

you um some people are advocating the

use of those as being much stronger

binders that decrease the risk of

redistribution so it sounds like your

take is is a bit different that th you

think that those chemicals are actually

problematic and that you found that

those increase the risk of

redistribution did I understand that

correctly yeah yeah that's what I've

seen okay plus also I mean I think that

you know with our approach where we also

have people drinking lers of water a day

and then we also have the other binders

um you know that there's yes they are

reversible but it's less likely to be an

issue and it's also a lot lower dose and

so you know if they are they're they're

more likely to come out with the other

things that we're doing and and not get

redistributed in my

experience are there particular heavy

metals that you found to be uniquely

problematic whether it's Mercury or

aluminum or c or lead or something like

that is there some sort of pattern that

you're finding with those and anything

that you can tell people that is related

to roots of exposure to those metals

that they may not be aware

of well I think you know because I'm

testing a lot

less um I'm I mean I would say that when

I did test a lot it was I did not see I

think I okay so I would say that mercury

I saw come out most of the time and so

what's important to remember with these

tests is they're really excretion tests

and depending on the binder that you use

or the keying agent that's going to bind

to that it's going to come out

disproportionately so these key laters

like dmsa or dmps Ora they have a

binding coefficient which means that

they bind preferentially to different

metals and so consequently you may see

see when you do this test that there's a

whole bunch of lead coming out and then

if you continue to do the testing you

see then the lead goes away as you're

removing the heavy metals and then the

next thing that comes out is Mercury and

then after that maybe it's cadmium and

DMS in these these different keying

agents aren't particularly good at

removing aluminum so generally you don't

see those um you have to do something

like silica in order to do it um and

then there are concerns about that

testing too because if you're going to

give a Keating agent

which is a treatment times 10 generally

um it's going to be just a very high

dose and if you're going to give this to

a sick person they're not going to be

able to clear those heavy metals and so

that's another place where I where I um

have changed the way what I'm doing is

because um that I've seen a number of

untour effects from that um yeah so in

terms of so I think I answer the first

part of the question but what was the

second

part was Roots you're talking about

Roots if there's any anything related to

roots of exposure to these heavy metals

that that people could be more aware of

so that they don't accumulate some of

these things in the first place yeah so

with Mercury you know it really is

about um amalgams you know they call

them silver fillings because it sounds

bad to call them Mercury fillings but

they really are half silver and half

Mercury right and every time you bite

down you release mercury vapor this is

one of the reasons why I got chronic

fatigue is from my Mercury fillings um

and then a big one that a lot of people

don't want to talk about as fish because

you know they talk about fish as brain

food and Omega-3s are so important and

that's true but unfortunately I feel

like you got to get them in supplements

these days that have actually been um

tested to make sure they don't have

mercury because we have way too much

mercury right now that's in the oceans

and that unfortunately is now in the so

the bigger the fish the more Mercury so

consequently you know if you are going

to eat fish eating smaller fish like

anchovies or sardines is going to be

recommended but um those are some of the

big reasons why people end up with more

Mercury did you want to something live

living up in Seattle I know salmon

consumption is Big up there do you find

that even salmon is problematic I do my

understanding was that sort of most of

the the salmon from the Pacific

Northwest and allow

is largely without concern is that not

true that's not true that's not what the

testing shows when they do examine yeah

even wild CAU unfortunately now I was

just up in Iceland and I did eat fish

because I don't normally but I figured

it was far away from most things and

they heat like 80% of they use their

energy is like 80% geothermal and so I

figured that there were not going to be

because the Mercury that gets in the

oceans comes from coal plants so the

more coal plants that you get I mean

even if it's from across the seas in

Asia you know it's still getting into

our so I was in the North Atlantic I

figured that it would be more of an

option when we go my daughter loves

Sushi and so you know once a year for

new years's we get sushi and I give her

binders you know and so that's kind of

the trade-off I mean she gets binders

also if she wants to eat something

that's gluten or dairy you know so

that's kind of how we deal with some of

those things you know so that she can

still feel included and still have

experiences yeah just just a random

thought I had as you were speaking there

that just the the related to the

proportion so um if we consume a small

portion of fish and even that has a

significant enough amount of heavy

metals to be toxic to

us given that we are maybe somewhere

between let's say

10 to I don't know 50 or 100 times the

size of the actual fish itself you you

got to believe that that amount of

mercury in the fish is even way way way

more toxic to the fish than it is to us

you follow what I'm saying

here yes okay I would I mean yeah I

wonder if these fish are just swimming

around with you know barely functional

brains because of all the heavy metals

that they're getting exposed to yeah I

mean we're seeing all sorts of

interesting Trends with fish I mean I

just saw something recently that that um

that was blaming it on climate change

but we don't know whether or not there's

also this

issue

interesting okay so

um mot toxins heavy metals chronic

infections I know I want to get into

some of the brain retraining stuff with

you but was there anything else that I'm

missing in that toxic ball well I put

chemicals in there as well okay um you

know just in terms of the

exposures um you know what is it now

90,000 different chemicals were exposed

to on a regular basis you know

pesticides herbicides

Etc and as far as getting rid of those

you know obviously minimizing roots of

exposure and then using some of the same

binders that also apply to moto toxins

and heavy metals also cover some of

those chemicals or or is there some

other approach that is also

recommended no it's it's more the same I

mean what ends up happening is that you

reach a a critical mass um where you

start to um really start to excrete a

lot of these different toxins at the

same time and part of that has to do

with the fact that they are um bound to

each other and so when you're starting

to release more and we're focused on the

step three and we're opening up the exit

Pathways and we're drinking enough water

um a lot a lot of that um ends up coming

out with the rest of it but yeah it's

more the same the binders um and some of

the other heavy metal natural keyers

that we

use okay um I want to get into brain

retraining but maybe before we go there

I know that you flagged long CO as

something to talk about so um and this

is something that you know sort of early

on in the pandemic when there started to

be some increasing awareness of this

situation some some subset of people

were getting these longer term symptoms

um you sort of took a a deep interest in

that and sort of specialized in in

helping those people very early on um

now we're you know thankfully the co all

the covid mess is largely behind us um

what are your thoughts on this landscape

of long covid and I know that there was

some controversy there was some research

that was considered flawed that maybe

overestimated how prevalent as long Co

actually was uh and what what are you

finding with regards to sort of the

reality of it and how to help people

overcome

it yeah so the the research that the CDC

did came out with 20% one and five and I

think that's probably accurate it might

be a little bit higher than that just

because a lot of people don't realize

they get a new symptom and they don't

know where it comes from and so the

challenge is is that um it really is

very sneaky and you can get you know the

idea is that you know the more symptoms

that you get when you have a cold but

the more mild the symptoms are the more

likely you are to get persistent

symptoms and so you know since 2019 if

somebody gets a viral illness and then

they end up with persistent symptoms now

sometimes those symptoms go away when

they we get them they go away for a

couple of months and then they come back

and you've got a bunch of weird symptoms

whether it's fatigue or brain fog or

muscle pain joint pain

neurologic symptoms heart palpitations a

lot of these things that that are

typically weird for most people to

experience all of a sudden out of the

blue we have to start considering that

and what's interesting is that you know

a lot of people you know a lot of the

people who got sick with covid well I

don't know if this is true or not but it

seemed like I have more interest now in

my practice with long covid than I have

the last several years really so oh yeah

and I think a lot of it has to do with

the fact that lot of people went to the

their University their local

University's covid clinic and they tried

to go the conventional route and then

they started looking outside the box

after that didn't help them maybe a year

or two later sorry the convent

conventional route for treating long

covid like seeing a regular doctor

saying I have these sort of strange

symptoms long after covid can you help

me and basically those doctors are

saying we don't we we don't have any

treatment for that we don't know what to

do cor yes or they went to a covid

clinic

at their local University hospital where

they had a bunch of Specialists there

where their heart symptoms were being

treated by the cardiologist and their

lung symptoms were being treated by the

pulmonologist and their gut symptoms

were being treated by the GI and they

were all being just treated by symptoms

right right and so they're getting all

this this far poly Pharmacy where they

were getting all these different

medications and they weren't getting

to yeah

right I know and and they and they just

kept on getting worse unfortunately

right and so then they started looking

outside the box and they're like okay so

then they go to their local naturopath

or they go to their local integrative

doctor their local functional medicine

Doc and they maybe they get a little bit

better but it's and then they start

looking outside that and then outside of

the local area and that's when they're

starting to find me and they're starting

to look for people who specialize in

long covid and they're realizing that

it's really a whole new ball of wax and

that we we have to have different tools

um but it takes them a long journey you

know I had one guy right now who's doing

really well in my program about nine

months all of a sudden his energy came

back he's he's in Hollywood he started

working again doing producing stuff or

whatever he does but his wife had a call

with me two years ago and he wouldn't

get on the phone he's like I don't want

to talk to that quack right and so um it

took him those years for her to

eventually convince him like we have to

go we have to do something else we have

to think differently we have to look at

a different Paradigm we have to look at

different causes right so that's um

that's been very interesting to see

because I thought in 2020 when I was

like or 2021 when we're seeing all this

happening I'm like okay long covid is um

I can help these people because it's

it's so similar to chronic fatigue

syndrome and then nobody shows up you

know and it just seemed like they they

just wanted to go they're like I'm just

going to go to my covid clinic and I'm

going to get better and unfortunately

that didn't happen so that's the first

thing that's really interesting the

other thing is that I've seen people who

um come to see us who have long covid

and we treat them with natural

antivirals and they get better um I've

seen people who come to see us and they

have mold along with their long covid

and we treat the mold and before we even

get to antivirals they're getting better

so it really and it turns out that at

least what I'm seeing is that it really

is that combination of the heavy metals

chemicals molds other infections that

are present and then the nervous system

dysfunction function that all need to be

addressed when it comes to Long Co or

whether it's chronic fatigue syndrome or

whatever you know long Co is just

another infection right and there's

other things that we do in order to

mitigate the um the micr cloths that

people are seeing um but we already do

this when we're addressing

hypercoagulation with like the chronic

fatigue stuff so a lot of it is part and

parcel the same as kind of the other

work that we've been doing but we

definitely need different Tools in order

to address Spike protein in order to um

have different antivirals to go after um

the co and we are seeing now viral

persistence um which previously was

thought to not be the case but the virus

is persisting the spike protein is

persisting we're getting immune system

dysfunction inflammation um and so need

to address just to be clear for

listeners who might not understand that

that persistence that you're referring

to is this something analogous to let's

say uh fste bar virus sort of staying in

a in a latent state in the body sort of

going into hiding if you will or going

into dorcy for a period of time and

then when maybe you're under stress or

when there's a chemical exposure when

sort of you know your immune system is

is suppressed from some other causes in

your life now all of a sudden the virus

can sort of pop back up again absolutely

that's that's basically what you're

saying is there's some evidence that

covid is behaving like that correct wow

yeah it is persisting in the body it is

hiding it's actually able to it's been

found in every cell in the body and

that's why it can cause over 200

different symptoms wow so that's what

we're seeing and and go ahead is is

there something we can do to to help

clear this out meaning is is there also

evidence that okay it persists in some

people but it is possible to sort of

clear it out of the body and if we use

something to clear the spike proteins or

or anything along those lines is that is

that

possible yes yeah we're seeing that all

the time in our patients absolutely or

our clients um but and one and one I

guess um Public Health notice I would

say is that when you you know if you're

taking things to treat any sort of virus

I recommend that you treat it for four

weeks even after your symptoms resolve

after the first week or so because you

don't know because the testing is so

poor about whether or not you have covid

and so you just have to assume that any

virus that you get is covid and then you

have to treat it aggressively with

antivirals you know natural antivirus is

what I'm talking about vitamins high do

vitamin D vitamin C vitamin A Etc

peratin zinc um in order to make sure

that it's not going to

persist so they don't end up with long

Co got it uh I want to ask you a very

controversial question that's highly

polarized which is that there's also

quite a bit of evidence showing harms

from the covid vaccine now and while

this was disputed very early on and

people tried to suppress it and say that

anybody who questioned whether it was

safe and effective was some kind of

crazy conspiracy theorist nut job now

the evidence is pretty clear that

certain a certain subset of people

absolutely have been harmed by covid

vaccines there is also something called

some some people have termed long

vaccine but the official name in the

literature is long postco vaccination

syndrome uh is this something that

you've also worked with people on people

who have long-term side effects from

getting the covid vaccines as well yes

and I agree with you you know the

research is is definitely clear I've

seen a number of studies and

presentations on the subject um and

unfortunately um you know there there

was some initial the vaccine was helpful

for some people with some really severe

um illness and hospitalization initially

but um you know it was definitely

overused and caused more harm than good

unfortunately I believe

yeah agreed we'll leave it there in the

hopes that this episode doesn't get

censored um

so one last thing that I wanted to ask

you about is the brain retraining stuff

and um there's this term brain

retraining and this has sort of become

its own phrase uh and it's interesting

because it's it's be it's like it's it's

sort of got it's it's how should I

describe this it's almost a term that is

specific to the mecfs community the

people in that Community have been um

told about this quote unquote brain

retraining and there are specific people

like ashak Gupta and there there are now

I I I would imagine at least four or

five probably more uh different

methodologies specific methodologies

that sort of have the Paradigm

of um looking at chronic fatigue and

mecfs through this lens that it is

primarily driven by one's mindset and

belief system and the way that their

brain operates as a result of maybe um

early trauma and and chronic stress and

and things of that nature and that the

key treatment to recover from me CFS

that is in their view vastly more

important than anything else vastly more

important than nutrition or lifestyle or

or anything one might do with regards to

toxins and infections and things like

that there there a lot of these people's

frames and I'm sure some of them are

more nuanced but I'm I'm sort of in

general my experience is that most of

them sort of look at mecfs through this

lens of it's all about what's going on

in the brain we have to do this brain

retraining that's the big key to

recovery and um I think like you I've

also seen that certain people have

benefited tremendously from doing this

work um I I think like you I think you

and I agree that it is not solely what's

going on in the brain and that there are

obviously deeper physiological layers of

what's going on here um but it sounds

like you've come to sort of see this

brain retraining piece of the puzzle as

being very important what tell me about

your experience with that

yeah you know the body will heal better

when it's in more it spends more time in

the parasympathetic state right so

there's two aspects to the autonomic

nervous system the sympathetic and the

parasympathetic sympathetic is fight or

flight or freeze and the parasympathetic

is rest and digest and recover to be to

simplify it um and so whether it is from

heavy metals or chemicals or molds or

infections or from trauma or things that

happened to your past all of those

things can cause dysfunction in the

autonomic nervous system in the Vagas

nerve and so consequently that puts

people into a sympathetic

State and it's very hard for them to

heal and so a lot of the techniques that

are being used whether it's

mindset whether it

is breath

work whether it is um cognitive therapy

or catching and retraining your

different thoughts all of those things

are working to put people more into

their

parasympathetic so I didn't know much

about it until I saw people the people

who were doing it in my program got

significantly better faster right so

then it's like okay I have to look at

this right and so um yeah it's it's

definitely been a game Cher for the

people in my program the question is

always just when to introduce it because

you know and you never know whether or

not it's going to be 10% of their issue

or whether it's going to be

70% right so often

times when somebody comes to me and

they're like you know I've done a brain

retraining program for the last year and

I'm not better I'm like oh yeah you know

like you know this is going to really

help you yeah um and they continue to

use those techniques and then they just

work better when we're starting to

remove meaning you're just to clarify

for listeners so the the way that your

brain interprets that is okay you've

ruled out the extent to which the

mindset is the big thing causing your

issues and now essentially based on that

we have eliminated that variable

and or or we we know that that's not the

main cause of your symptoms so therefore

we know that it's mostly mediated

physiologically by you know things like

toxins and infections and mold and and

that sort of thing is that correct

that's correct that's what I'm saying

yeah so having that having that

combination people are always going to

get better and the question is just

about how much and you know how much is

it going to be and so that's why we

continue to incorporate more of that

into our program um and there is a

learning curve when people it's

challenging for people to do both our

program and somebody else's so generally

we recommend that they either if they're

very sensitive like they've got mcast so

that they're reacting to everything and

they can't tolerate any supplements then

we recommend that they do a brain

retraining first or nervous system

retraining whatever you want to call it

um but if they do not have that kind of

sensitivity then oftentimes we introduce

it about three or six months in um

depending on how much that they can hold

um because it is such an important

component and and what is you know given

that I said that this is sort of a

phrase that sort of means something

rather specific within the mecfs

community specifically there is this

specific sort of approach to quote

unquote brain retraining that exists in

that

Community whereas that that term brain

retraining might mean lots of other

things outside of that it could be you

know post brain injury recoveries and

and things like that um with lots of

different methodologies but here we're

talking about something that

is very from what I've seen very

cognitive in its approach very very much

about um helping people with specific

techniques that help them uh control

their thoughts and emotions better and

this this would be largely Under the

Umbrella of uh what's called top down

control which is sort of using your

prefrontal cortex to um to

to respond better to how your body is

thinking and feeling and reacting

physiologically reacting to certain

things and basically gaining that skill

set of being able to better regulate

your thoughts and

emotions I think that's somewhat

accurate I think that probably

What's

um I think there's a couple of different

level levers that are being pulled I

think the most important one is

mindfulness and this is also where I

found um psychedelics to be

supportive but having that sort of

mindfulness so that you can experience

the sensations that are happening in

your body then allows you to do

something about it cognitively so I

think that there is the thinking and the

feeling but often times we do we spend

so much time cognitive so much time in

the thinking and most of I think what

heals people is actually feeling and

getting in touch with the sensations

that are in the body and practicing that

mindfulness whether it's meditation or

something in that realm um so that they

you can experience it and then you can

do some of these techniques like if you

have if you have if you're feeling your

nervous system get dysfunctioned like if

you're I was in a conversation with my

wife we were actually having an argument

and uh and I was just so overwhelmed by

the sensation in my body and I could

have very easily started blaming her and

being upset with her like I've done in

the past but in this particular

situation I was just like whoa my body

is just going crazy right now with

sensation and I think and a lot of it

has to do with some of the

interpretation is about like inner child

work and so you know kind of putting my

hand on my chest and being like okay

you're safe you're loved you're enough

like you're safe like this conversation

does not indicate that you're not safe

right so I think feeling it and then

being able to cognitively provide some

sort of um support for the sensation

allows the sensation to disperse and

that ends up helping to retrain the

nervous system but that's just you know

I'm not an expert in this I'm still

learning about it so that is my

understanding about um about what's

happening and so and yeah and then and

then there's when you're doing something

like the breath work that is not

cognitive also so that's just you're

doing box breathing because that helps

to move you into parasympathetic or

you're doing some sort of yogic

breathing that helps to move you into

parasympathetic so this is this is

bottom up basically how the the breath

interfaces with the nervous system so by

you know the nervous Sy the the breath

being this link between something that

is under non-conscious control but we

can also consciously control it and so

by virtue of that B directional effect

we can modulate the breath to modulate

the nervous

system that's right I forgot you're a

breath expert so yeah so yeah so that's

I'm glad you put some terms to it so top

down versus bottom up um yeah that's

helpful so yeah I would definitely say

bottom up is is what I recommend and

what I see to be super helpful in my own

life and and talking with our clients um

but there I think that there is kind of

this mindset cognitive component but I

think that you have to incorporate the

other as well yeah from what I've seen

some of the methods that I've seen in

the in the

CFS Community around brain retraining

are very much like NLP based specific

techniques that would I think largely be

categorized as cognitive behavioral type

um therapies that are about like thought

stopping you know so noticing if you're

having negative thoughts and sort of

really having a specific technique to

notice when that's happening and to

catch yourself and interrupt it and

replace it with positive thoughts and

sort of helping learn the cognitive

technique of just regulating your own

thoughts getting yourself out of you

know sort of these patterns of spiraling

out of control of negative thoughts and

emotions and some people um some some of

these techniques to be honest don't

resonate with me so much but um I I have

seen a number of people who report uh

really tremendous benefits from it I I

would say that in general my biases also

like yours I think towards more of the

some of the bottomup approaches um but I

think for some people that really I

don't know there's some people that seem

to have this sort of

catastrophic um that I I think they are

I think catastrophizing is the word that

would be used in psychological circles

where some little thing happens and then

all of a sudden they spiral out of

control with just the series of negative

thought and emotional patterns and

catastrophizing around every little

event and so when you do that around

every little event it's like your whole

life becomes dominated by just this

constant uh state of stress and and

catastrophizing over every little thing

and I've seen people in that state and I

I think it's definitely the case that

they can use some some specific

cognitive techniques to sort of

interrupt that

pattern and I do I have found personally

that the mindfulness ends up leading to

that so I like to combine them both

because the mindfulness allows me to

stop and see what I'm thinking and then

to catch myself so I talk to myself a

lot more these days than I ever have

because I'll stop and I'll be like that

really that thought really doesn't serve

me right now you know scarcity around

whatever right um it be like let's

choose a different thought that feels

good right so that's kind of how I work

with it

um in in my in my beginner Journey on

you know um that that's been helpful for

me yeah beautiful Evan this has been a

really fun conversation it's it's been

great to catch up with you uh let people

know where they can find you follow you

work with you anything else you want to

leave people

with so they can find me at energy MD

method.com and there's a little button

in the bottom right hand corner where

they can text me and we can start a

conversation I've got free 20-minute

calls if they're interested in in

getting on a call and seeing whether I

can help them I'll go through a little

bit of their history and let them know

whether I feel like I can and if not I

will send them

elsewhere awesome thank you so much for

coming on the show again it was awesome

to reconnect with you and um let me know

if you want to come on again soon and

and talk about anything else it was an

absolute pleasure thank you so much for

sharing your your knowledge and your

wisdom your accumulated experience over

many years of sort of in the trench's

clinical experience with mecfs uh with

my audience I I really appreciate it

thanks for having me onor I appreciate

it