Systems thinking for product designers - Ryo Lu (Dive Club S4 | E7)
Summary
TLDRDans cet échange passionnant, Rio, un designer expérimenté chez Notion, partage les coulisses de la création d'un produit et les défis de conception liés à l'intégration de l'IA. Il met en évidence l'importance de la recherche utilisateur, la collaboration entre les ingénieurs et les designers, et la création d'un système flexible qui répond aux besoins variés des utilisateurs. Rio souligne également la valeur de la communication et la nécessité de travailler ensemble pour façonner des solutions plus grandes et plus impactantes.
Takeaways
- 🌟 L'importance de travailler ensemble au-delà des titres officiels pour résoudre les problèmes et créer des solutions.
- 🔍 La conception d'AI comme un élément de construction de Notion, intégrant les besoins de l'utilisateur et la personnalisation.
- 📊 L'utilisation de la recherche utilisateur pour comprendre comment intégrer l'IA dans les produits et prioriser les différentes utilisations potentielles.
- 🤖 La prise en compte des différents types d'utilisateurs et de leurs besoins lorsqu'à l'introduction de nouvelles fonctionnalités.
- 🔗 La création de systèmes flexibles qui permettent à Notion de servir un large spectre d'utilisateurs tout en préservant la simplicité d'utilisation.
- 🛠️ L'importance de la conception de systèmes pour répondre aux besoins variés des utilisateurs et pour éviter la complexité excessive.
- 📝 La documentation et la collaboration asynchrones pour partager et affiner les idées dans des documents de conception.
- 💡 La combinaison de la collaboration en personne et asynchrone pour accélérer le processus de rétroaction et de mise en œuvre.
- 🔄 L'itération continue et l'ajout de commentaires pour améliorer les fonctionnalités en cours de développement.
- 👥 La prise en compte des besoins des utilisateurs débutants et expérimentés pour améliorer l'expérience d'onboarding de Notion.
- 🚀 La vision de Rio sur la conception de produits qui transcende les rôles traditionnels pour une collaboration plus étroite et une meilleure innovation.
Q & A
Quel est le rôle de Rio L dans l'élaboration du produit Notion ?
-Rio L est l'un des premiers designers de Notion et a eu un impact significatif sur le produit depuis plus de quatre ans.
Comment Notion aborde-t-il l'intégration de l'IA dans son produit ?
-Notion envisage l'IA comme un élément de construction, un système horizontal qui s'intègre avec les autres blocs de Notion, permettant aux utilisateurs de personnaliser les résultats.
Quelle est la place de la recherche utilisateur dans le projet d'IA de Notion ?
-La recherche utilisateur est essentielle pour comprendre comment intégrer l'IA de manière utile et adaptée aux besoins des utilisateurs, quelles sont les principales doléances qu'elle pourrait résoudre et comment prioriser les différentes façons d'utiliser l'IA.
Comment Notion gère-t-il la diversité des utilisateurs dans le développement de ses fonctionnalités ?
-Notion adopte une approche système qui permet à tous les utilisateurs, qu'il s'agisse de power users ou de personnes utilisant Notion de manière très basique, d'accéder à la puissance et à la flexibilité du produit tout en préservant la simplicité pour les utilisateurs moins expérimentés.
Quelles stratégies Notion utilise-t-il pour recueillir des retours pendant le développement d'un nouveau produit ou d'une fonctionnalité ?
-Notion utilise des documents asynchrones, des prototypes en direct, des retours internes et externes, et des boucle de rétroaction pour recueillir un large éventail d'opinions et d'améliorations avant de mettre en production un nouveau produit ou une fonctionnalité.
Comment Notion gère-t-il la transition de conception à développement ?
-Les designers de Notion ont souvent des compétences en codage, ce qui favorise une expérience fluide et une collaboration étroite avec les ingénieurs. Les designers et les ingénieurs travaillent ensemble pour s'assurer que les pixels sur l'écran sont cohérents et reflètent les concepts de conception.
Quelles sont les compétences que Rio L souhaite développer en tant que designer en 2024 ?
-Rio L souligne l'importance de la communication pour faire avancer le travail d'une équipe et motiver les gens. Il souhaite améliorer son aptitude à clarifier ses idées et à les présenter de manière concise et accessible à différents niveaux de détail et en différentes langues.
Quel est le conseil de Rio L pour les designers qui souhaitent rejoindre l'équipe de Notion ?
-Rio L recommande aux designers de montrer des travaux concrets et de préparer des études de cas détaillées. Il apprécie également quand les candidats traitent leur site web comme un produit en lui-même, avec attention porté à tous les détails, y compris la typographie et la présentation globale.
Comment Notion aborde-t-il l'expérience utilisateur pour les nouveaux utilisateurs ?
-Notion cherche à proposer une expérience d'onboarding adaptée aux besoins de chaque utilisateur, en essayant de poser le moins de questions possibles pour offrir un ensemble d'outils pertinents. L'objectif est de rendre les outils auto-évidents et familiers, tout en offrant la possibilité de personnalisation sans avoir à comprendre les concepts de base profondément.
Quelle est la philosophie de travail chez Notion qui区别 les designers de Notion d'autres entreprises ?
-Les designers de Notion travaillent sans se limiter aux titres officiels et sans barrières entre les rôles. Ils collaborent étroitement avec les ingénieurs et d'autres parties prenantes pour résoudre les problèmes, concevoir des systèmes et trouver des solutions ensemble, sans se focaliser sur les responsabilités spécifiques de leur rôle.
Comment Notion gère-t-il l'évolution et la complexité de son produit en grandissant ?
-Notion gère la complexité en construisant des systèmes flexibles et généralisables qui permettent à l'ensemble des utilisateurs de comprendre et d'utiliser le produit. Ils cherchent également à améliorer continuellement leur processus d'onboarding pour que les nouveaux utilisateurs trouvent l'ensemble d'outils qu'ils ont besoin sans avoir à tout apprendre d'emblée.
Outlines
🌟 Introduction to Design Philosophy at Notion
The paragraph introduces Rio, a key designer at Notion, and delves into the company's design philosophy. Rio emphasizes the importance of摒弃传统角色界限, focusing on collaborative problem-solving and system thinking. The conversation highlights the unique approach to design at Notion, where titles and hierarchies are less important than the collective effort to solve problems and create solutions. The discussion also touches on the design process for Notion's AI launch, emphasizing user research and the challenge of integrating AI into a product in a way that is both familiar and useful to users.
🤖 Integrating AI in Notion's Design
This section discusses the role of user research in the development of Notion's AI features. Rio explains that AI is a new frontier that challenges existing product development assumptions. User research is crucial in understanding how to best integrate AI, pricing, and creating feedback loops. The conversation explores different tactics for user research, such as live calls, feature flagging, and surveys, and how these methods were applied to gather insights for Notion's AI implementation. Rio also talks about the nuances of labeling AI output and the importance of transparency and trust in AI technology.
🎨 Balancing Power Users and Novices
The paragraph focuses on the challenge of designing for a wide spectrum of users, from power users to those who use Notion in a basic way. Rio discusses the approach of building systems and the importance of creating a flexible and understandable system that caters to different user needs. The goal is to create a product that feels as good as a single-purpose tool while maintaining the power and flexibility of a more general-purpose tool. The conversation also touches on the evolution of Notion's design culture and the importance of continuous building and prototyping in the face of a rapidly changing technology landscape.
🖋️ Design Documentation and Collaboration
In this part, Rio talks about the process of documenting and collaborating on design ideas within Notion. The team uses Notion itself to write down their thoughts and reasoning, creating a transparent and accessible document for feedback. The documents include high-level system designs, solution options, and visual aids. The process involves multiple iterations and loops to gather feedback from various stakeholders, including designers, PMs, and engineers. The goal is to ensure clarity, simplicity, and flexibility in the final product.
🔄 Feedback Loops and Iteration
Rio discusses the importance of feedback loops in the design process, especially for isolated areas of the product. The team collects feedback through various channels, builds prototypes, and iterates based on user feedback. The process involves internal testing within Notion, external feedback from ambassadors, and enterprise users. The aim is to refine the product until it's ready for launch. Rio also talks about the challenges of asynchronous feedback and the importance of in-person collaboration for refining details and making decisions.
🛠️ Design and Engineering Collaboration
This section focuses on the collaboration between designers and engineers at Notion. Rio mentions that many Notion designers also code, leading to a fluid and integrated design process. The challenge is ensuring consistency across the product, which involves checking and polishing every detail. As the team grows, there's a need for better tooling and systems to maintain efficiency and adaptability. Rio talks about the development of a component system to map Figma designs to code and the importance of shared understanding and language between designers and engineers.
🎯 Notion's Design Culture and Future Growth
Rio reflects on Notion's unique design culture and the importance of breaking away from traditional roles. The team works together without strict boundaries, focusing on problems, systems, and solutions. Rio shares his personal growth in communication skills and the importance of helping teams work better together. He also discusses the evolution of Notion's onboarding experience, aiming to present concepts in a way that is familiar and easy for new users, while still offering power and flexibility for more advanced users.
🌐 Portfolio Insights for Aspiring Designers
In the final part, Rio shares what he looks for in a designer's portfolio. He appreciates seeing real work and case studies that demonstrate a deep understanding of the product development process. Attention to detail, website presentation, and typography are important. Rio values a portfolio that treats the website as a product itself, showcasing the designer's ability to communicate and present their work effectively.
Mindmap
Keywords
💡Design Process
💡Collaboration
💡AI Integration
💡User Research
💡Design Culture
💡Building Blocks
💡Feedback Loops
💡Prototyping
💡Product Development
💡Design Systems
💡User Experience
Highlights
The importance of discarding traditional titles and working collaboratively on projects, focusing on problems, systems, and solutions.
The unique design process at Notion, which involves thinking about AI as a building block and a horizontal system.
The role of user research in the AI project at Notion, and how it differs from typical approaches due to the introduction of a new primitive layer.
The challenge of designing for a wide spectrum of users, from power users to those using Notion as a basic tool.
The approach to designing AI in a way that fits with the rest of Notion's building blocks and is customizable to user needs.
The significance of feedback loops in product development and the various tactics used for research, such as live calls, feature flagging, and surveys.
The nuanced approach to labeling AI output and managing user expectations regarding AI's capabilities and potential mistakes.
The strategy of building systems that can cater to different user needs without compromising on simplicity and flexibility.
The evolution of Notion's design culture and the shift from a small, tight-knit team to a larger group with varying skill levels.
The emphasis on craftsmanship, playfulness, and mass appeal in design, aiming to create software that is both high-quality and accessible.
The challenge of onboarding new users to Notion, given its complexity and the need for a tailored approach that doesn't overwhelm.
The idea of designing features that are self-evident and familiar, making the tool intuitive and easy to use without requiring extensive configuration.
The fluid collaboration between designers and engineers at Notion, where roles are less defined and the focus is on collective problem-solving.
The importance of communication skills for designers, especially in larger organizations where clarity and motivation are crucial.
The approach to portfolio presentation that stands out to Rio, emphasizing real work, case studies, and treating the website as a product.
The value of designers being able to work together across different teams and roles, helping to improve overall collaboration and productivity.
Transcripts
what I find that worked the best is you
kind of throw away all these titles and
stuff and you just work on the thing
together you might own certain piece of
it but they don't think in R boundaries
they think about the problems the
systems the solutions welcome to Dive
Club my name is red and this is where we
go deep with the best designers so that
you can learn from their journey and
apply it to your own career today I'm
talking with Rio L who was one of the
very first design at notion and has had
a massive impact on the product over the
last four plus years this conversation
is an inside look at the design process
at notion we talk about how they think
about products how they collaborate with
engineers and all of the tiny details
that make the design culture at notion
so special so to start this conversation
I asked Rio to give us a behindth scenes
to learn more about what it was like
leading the design of their recent AI
launch what actually really kicked this
off was Simon Ian and a bunch of people
were just kind of prototyping AI stuff
it kind of kind of clicked like this
thing can help us solve so many
different problems that our users
already have and then you were thinking
about how do we package up all of these
Technologies and Concepts in a way
that's familiar to people that's useful
that also fits with the rest of Notions
building blocks how we think about AI is
it's almost like we're designing like AI
almost like a building block of notion
but also is like a horizontal system
premi of the needs to know you know how
to interact with all the things we have
but also like any other notion primitive
we allow you to customize the out
of it can you talk a little bit about
the role of user research in this
project did it differ from the way that
you typically approach projects in
notion given the fact that it isn't just
like this new isolated feature but you
are introducing producing this primitive
layer that touches kind of everything in
the product yeah user research for AI is
especially interesting because it's a
new world almost that we're entering in
it breaks a lot of assumptions with
existing ways of thinking about building
products and then people don't really
know what's the best way to package up
AI into their products I think you know
most people start with I don't know slap
on a chat bot next to your thing and
then it it doesn't really still interact
with the stuff that you have already it
doesn't really fit with the concepts you
have it doesn't really fit with you know
all the problems your users already have
and then user research almost can give
us more clarity in a lot of like problem
say like what is useful valuable what's
important how do we prioritize different
ways we can utilize AI to help people
what are the biggest pain points people
really need help with that AI can help
solve user research help with a lot of
more like tactical problems like how do
we price this thing it can also help you
you know build more of these feedback
loops I think the more of these Loops
you have the better it also doesn't have
to be you know pure interview based user
research or just pling surveys you can
build a lot of like feedback Mech
mechanisms in your product itself and
then they all kind of act as input if
you think about the different tactics
that you might use for research like
maybe you're doing live calls or feature
flagging or surveys or something like
that which tactics were the most
impactful for this project and maybe
there's even some like specific
learnings or takeaways that influence
the way that you thought about the
rollout strategy for AI one example
would be I think there is a lot of
nuance around how much you want to kind
kind of say label what is the AI output
or how much human approvals is needed or
how do you want to show people that say
AI might make mistakes sometimes for
different kinds of things people do in
Ocean or in general when they work
there's like different levels of
Acceptance in terms of how much Freedom
you want to give the AI how much
disclosure do you want to give to people
that something is generated by Ai and
then it's almost like for every single
segment of users there's different
answers so we ran a lot of like multiple
surveys to kind of collect all of these
different patterns of people's usage and
then you can kind of design different
solutions for those people in different
points in the Spectrum some people are
they're more early
adopter more accepting technology type
of type of people but then there are
also people who are really scared of AI
they don't really know what it is why
would they even want to buy this what's
the point you kind of want to figure out
what these different people need and
then you design a mechanism to build
more trust give people more transparency
in what thei does make people feel like
they know what's happening and they're
not really scared or threatened by this
technology because the thing is so new
and everything is kind of evolving
there's new things popping out every
time it's really important to keep
building and prototyping and trying
things because it's so new I don't think
we need really strong conviction from
this group of people that okay great
they like it and then we ship it it's
more like we want to kind of discover
where people land in the Spectrum what
do they need different kinds of people
different kinds of level of acceptance
and then we designed the system that
covers most of of those my assumption is
like you're designing for such a wide
spectrum of like you know power users on
one hand all the way to people who are
basically just using notion as like a
glorified Word document and AI just
really increases the ceiling for those
power users in a way that probably
significantly broadened the spectrum of
personas that you are designing for how
do you even approach something like that
as a designer thinking about these
different types of users and the
different capabilities that they would
be looking for while also you know like
preserving that Simplicity for the
people who maybe are just kind of using
notion in a very rudimentary way almost
we started mostly from the systems side
it's like we build the building blocks
bit by bit in a way that everything is
you know fits together pretty well
there's very few number of Concepts but
then it almost does a lot of things it's
almost like there's two ways of
Designing one way is you design the
system ideally the system has the fewest
parts that does the most things you want
the other way is you design more like
typical SAS companies or where it's like
they have this group of users the set of
problems you design specific solutions
for those problems it's like the default
mode for a lot of designers when they
work on problems is they want to kind of
okay let's focus on this one problem and
then make a really really good solutions
for for that and then we add all the
delight and all the Crazy Craft on top
of it they focus on this thing they come
up with like a ideal sing Single model
that does everything within that bubble
but I do think for a more general
purpose tool like notion one single
model doesn't really fit with everyone
it's almost like the only way to do it
is with a generalizable system that
ideally most people can understand and
and then we need to kind of make every
level of that simple both like on the
conceptual level and all the things that
tie things around like how you navigate
how you file things how you create
things how you search for things we want
the thing to feel as good as the single
purpose tool like all the craft all the
speed all the Del light whatever you
call it can still exist but also the
power the flexibility the building
blocks can also exist and we need to
kind of figure out a way to fit
everything together when notion started
it was mostly system thinking building
the blocks but then when people kind of
click and figure out how to use these
building blocks to do the things they
want they fall in love with the tool
because they it gives them so much power
and then they can create the things they
want without you know asking the support
team please build this feature for me
when you're building a product that
serves so many different groups of users
so many different use cases you can't
think in one way or the other way you
need to come up with good systems to tie
up all this different people's needs
people's mental models of how their
tools work different variations of doing
say project management but then it's
like still kind of built with the same
ideas Primitives building blocks you
can't build single purpose features in
notion and try to slap it on top of it
cuz it will make the systems more comp
Lex how we're thinking about how to
solve these problems is we build systems
to kind of wrap these different use
cases up so that you get the things you
want without understanding how the
blocks works we want to kind of give
people what they want in the way that
feels the most familiar and easy but
still having everything built with the
building blocks that are flexible and
then AI can also be this middle layer
because once we we say teach AI how to
think about the notion structures and
the stuff you have it can help you
figure out how to set and set them up
better what are the different features
you might need so you don't have to
really think about it I want to talk a
little bit more about how you defined
that middle layer of AI in design and I
ideally even like kind of put listeners
in the room with you let like kind of
let us be like a fly on the all because
my assumption is that you know at some
point you're going off you're exploring
things and then you're giving you know
some kind of crit environment or or a
presentation or sharing some of your
thoughts and maybe it's like that first
or second big milestone in the AI
project can you tell us that story and
maybe even specifically talk about what
are you bringing to the table for that
meeting like what are you actually
showing as a designer what are you
hoping to achieve in that meeting and
all ultimately what are some of the
strategies that you're using to drive
alignment and provide more clarity for
what that middle layer can actually
become I feel like for certain kinds of
problems like an in-person crit of like
30 minutes just won't do it when things
get into like this systems conceptual
land almost because it touches so many
different things you need to kind of put
all your thoughts down in a really clear
way for people and then how we usually
do it is we we we just write docs in
notion and then usually those docks kind
of show people how you reason about the
problems what is maybe like the high
level system you trying to design how do
different concepts connect with each
other maybe you list out different
options for the solutions and then you
kind of think about each of the options
pros and cons try to compare them you
kind of supplement that thinking with
pictures there could be like figma
artboards link prev reviews in notion it
could be random drawings that you you've
done in the Whiteboard and then you need
to get a lot of people in there not just
designers maybe your PM Partners but
also like maybe Engineers people are
thinking about how to architect the
technical designs and then people come
in and people leave comments and people
start conversations and discussions on
specifics of that Doc and then we just
try to kind of mix all these things back
in do more Loops get more feedback from
more people do more loops and then try
to kind of share all these ideas out in
a way that is not just the designers
talking about tiny little visual details
but how do we Wrangle notion up so that
things get clearer and simpler but also
more flexible in some sense I I've
worked in similar environments where a
lot of things are happening in a notion
document and I'm kind of trying to break
down this project into like different
initiatives with maybe subd directions
within that initiative and like very
clear using like the call out Block it's
one of my favorite ones for these types
of of
documents I think a a struggle that I've
encountered a lot of times with doing
things entirely async is the pace and
getting people to actually weigh in on
the things that matter and if I'm doing
a loop my God sometimes those Loops take
too long and like then you have some
upper level person that's swoops in like
4 days later after you think you already
have alignment so can you talk a little
bit about how you Steed this async
feedback process as a designer and
ensure that you're getting the answers
you need and preserving the inertia of
the project I I also think it's like
just doing async is not enough but it is
good to kind of capture your ideas down
and all people's thoughts in a more open
environment where anyone can come in and
JW their ideas down get feedback but
when when you want to say make more
decisions where you want to start
refining different parts of the problems
you want to get into more details that's
when we want to do more of in-person
type collaboration people jamming is
what what we call it like maybe it's
like one designer with another designer
maybe it's like a group of say four to
five people whiteboarding working on the
same problem to get together versus
giving specific feedback in know more
like oh this person owns this thing and
makes all the decisions it's more like
everyone shares the same problem and
space everyone tries to throw out
everything out we essentially need to
look at stuff holistically and then try
to figure out which Hills to climb or
which set of steps to do on the little
pieces that you need to start doing
maybe each of them are owned by
different groups of people and different
teams it's more like a how do we plan
how do we sequence how do we get each of
the teams to do the right things problem
you talked about like the little pieces
can you talk about how you like
stewarded the feedback process for that
more like isolated area of the product
are you still doing it more like async
docs are you sharing more prototypes
like how do you get the feedback that
you need once you realize okay I'm
working on this specific set of features
or this specific area of the product if
we zoom into something that we're
actively building that will be shipped
soon or at some point that is really
clear we do try to collect feedback from
as many channels and sources as possible
we try to build and prototype life as
much as possible so you can think of
like say when we're doing earlier faces
of specking in stuff maybe it's more
about all those async Fe back on docks
or crits or you know little reviews here
and there once things get a little more
more momentum once Engineers start
prototyping stuff we try to release them
in our Dev notion workspace which is
like the the internal thing we use so
that people can play with it maybe it
starts with the the team that builds
that feature and then it expands to
everyone within notion itself so people
can get feedback back to the team that
built it and then once we feel good
enough internally we try to give more
access to people outside of notion we
have like a group of ambassadors and
they know every bit of it they can help
us cover feedback around say the more
power user use cases but then there are
also like we cover so many different
group of users in big companies
Enterprise they have more admin needs
Maybe as like small companies or
startups maybe as individuals and
students and then we want to get their
perspectiv on things too and then we get
all of these feedback we triage them we
do loops of these until we feel like
it's good enough and it's really close
to ship and then we just polish
everything up can you talk about I hate
using the word handoff but like this
transfer of knowledge between design and
Engineering within those Loops because
what you're getting feedback on does
exist in code so how much are you
prioritizing par between what's in figma
and what's ultimately in code and like
what do those deliverables within that
Loops cycle look like from your end for
the longest time like most of the notion
designers code too so we actually don't
really have this distinction it's
usually like people who are working on
this thing and then they're just
thinking and making things together and
iterating on it and then it's more like
a pretty fluid experience at at some
point we didn't even have PMS like the
engineers sometimes lead the project and
do some planning designers helped
filling details in as the team grew
bigger a lot of these things don't
really scale as much and also it's like
people start to have different levels of
skill sets and there's more variability
there are people who are on boarding
joining in trying to help but then maybe
they don't really know all the rules of
like how the system works then we
started building like a vicma side
component system like one of our
designers Ricky he's been starting doing
this like on the side and then the
engineers have the same problems because
they might not know which components to
use which text property text icon color
sizing and stuff to use so we're trying
to work on making sure that the figma
system maps to the code and everything
ideally converges at one point but for
the meantime it's all about ey checking
on everything that we ship and then
trying to polish it up so that things
feel consistent cuz ultimately
everything that we do ends up shipping
as pixels on the screen and I think it's
like the first order is you make sure
that pixels on the screen Works in a
cohesive way all the concepts you have
work in a cohesive way and then it's
about how we structure and reason about
all the components all the different
tokens are your different
variables in your designs they match and
have better tooling for designers and
Engineers to make things faster in a
more efficient way having more
flexibility when things are changing so
much helps and makes you more adaptive
to change and then it makes evolving the
system a little easier I want to talk a
little bit more about that because you
have this line that you use on your job
descriptions which I think is so cool
you talk about making software with the
craftsmanship of German cameras the
playfulness of Japanese toys and Mass
Appeal of Coca-Cola which is like a heck
of a mandate for design and you're in
this really interesting season of notion
where it's no longer this like small
really tight-knit Senior Team of
designers where you only have like three
people and now you're scaling up to like
10 different designers and maybe there's
more variance in skill level even but
like I'm really curious to to hear more
about how you think about the different
systems that you need to put in place in
order to empower the design team to
reach this level of craft and there's
kind of soft skills in there and there's
also kind of hard skills maybe we could
even start with the figma side like
actually how much of a system do you
build as a team like where do you think
about that line between okay there are
real efficiencies to gain here but we
don't want to go too far to like over
architect things and invest too much in
the systems level you really just want
to ship so how do you think about that
sweet spot for notion there are certain
things that pretty much you know they
don't really change but they touches so
many different parts of the tool say
like all the base components all the
rules that are foundational that needs
to be clarified to both designers and
Engineers that needs to be systematized
so that things are cohesive say like you
don't have a blue button that looks
different that two shades of blues but
then for notion I think a lot of things
that figma Design Systems can't really
cover there's a lot of things around how
we want to design features or Reason
about problems that are really not
captured by the components themselves or
the UI itself we need to both be crafts
you know humans on the say visual ux UI
side
but also when we Design Concepts how
they generalize how much flexibility and
power and possibilities does this thing
open while keeping the system itself
still understandable to people you've
mentioned this word power a couple times
and I do want to talk a little bit more
about that because I started using
notion like six seven years ago when it
was much simpler and you've added
so much to this product where it can do
kind of everything like literally
anything I want to build I can build it
in notion and for me as someone who's
been with the product for such a long
time I've learned each of these new
additions in isolation where it's kind
of preserved the Simplicity because I'm
not really ever having to experience the
whole thing for the first time so now
that there is this level of
functionality and it's such a robust
product can you talk a little bit about
how your thinking in terms of like the
new user experience for notion has
evolved over the last few years if you
look at notion the simplest state of
notion is just a blank page and you can
write whatever in there but there is a
lot of pretty complex foreign concepts
for most people especially people who
don't build software like databases that
are pretty hard to get at first but then
if you look at all the apps that people
use every day they're all powered by
databases they all have similar views
say like you have tables you have lists
you have boards but all of these things
are pre-built for people for different
purposes for different problems people
have different workflows they have so
we're trying to fix is almost like there
is no one size fit all on boarding for
notion because every single person every
single team wants different things all
the tools the configurations of them
might be very different but maybe
they're all conceptually similar how do
you have a system that Maps what the
user needs with the things the tools
that they want we want to figure out the
fewest questions that we can ask to give
you the closest set of tools that you
need when you start and then it's almost
like ideally when you use those tools
they are self-evident they're familiar
they maybe behave even half similar
Concepts that you're used to in other
tools when you navigate around it feels
pretty natural you can go from a project
to a task to a subtask really nicely
everything's presented in a way that's
familiar you don't have to configure
anything and then you kind of go down to
the middle layer if you do want to
customize it and the idea is we don't
want to push you towards the lowlevel
concepts too much too quickly too early
maybe there are a bunch of things that
you can tweak without touching harder
Concepts and then it's almost like for
people who are really interested in
building more tools with more power I
think they should still get the full set
of powers they could get or even with
more flexibility not everyone have to
become a tool maker in the sense it's
like most people don't really care most
people just want something that works
especially for people who are in a
company using notion a lot of people are
just say creating doct during them
getting some feedback looking at stuff
without thinking about how things are
structured so how we're thinking about
onboarding is almost like we need to
rethink how our concepts are
presented we need to tie it up better
with what we know about the user we need
to make it so that you get things that
are useful out of the box we want to
make it so that if you want to tweak it
a little bit but it gets really easy
without you being the designer of the
tool or un the need to understand how
databases work for example so it's
really about like how do we close the
gap between what people tell us and what
people get and ideally is like when
people are using that thing that they
get it's pretty easy I want to talk a
little bit about you personally but
maybe first one more question about
notion itself because I I think a lot of
people do recognize the fact that notion
has a special design culture and at
least for myself I'm very interested in
in getting a little bit of like an
inside look at and actually how you
operate so I'm going to toss a
hypothetical question your way let's say
that tomorrow you are forced to join a
new startup what is n aspect of how
design operates at notion that you would
for sure want to make sure that you
bring with you to that new company I
think designers at no do probably more
than what typical designers do at other
companies I started personally building
stuff and designing myself I did not
know the boundaries as much and then I
started to build my own startups with
say like two people four people 10
people and then I went to like more
established tech companies with say
hundreds of people or thousands of
people I've seen like different kinds of
configurations of all this you know
engineer product designer type of thing
sometimes the engineers gets more
Upstream designer goes Downstream
sometimes it's flipped sometimes it's
like maybe the PM is upstream and then
they kind of delegate to the designers
and the engineers more you know what I
find that work the best is you kind of
throw away all these titles and stuff
and you just work on the thing together
and then you cover each other you know
with anything you might have a spike or
you might own certain piece of it but
but then people blend their areas of
ownership their skills their thinking
they don't think in roll boundaries they
think about the problems the systems the
solutions anyone can propose any
idea that will ultimately get mixed back
into something better the designers can
code and polish things up the engineers
can think of the system designs that
eventually will transpire through in the
U the product people can think less
about specking out MV MVPs but think a
little broader about how do we turn this
into a bigger thing that's more
impactful across every user every use
case people should just work together
and make stuff doesn't really care what
your role or boundaries put all the
ideas together find the best idea follow
that through push that further in every
aspect what about you personally like
when you reflect on your own own skill
set in all of the ways that this culture
has grown you looking
ahead what is a skill set or area of
growth that you hope to reach as a
designer in 2024 I think communication
is like super important I started doing
design without communicating at all cuz
it's like you build the stuff and it's
out and it's done but then when you
start working in a bigger organization
with more people it is really important
to be really clear with your ideas where
you want to take people to you want to
have a way to articulate it in a really
crisp way at different levels of detail
in different languages when you talk to
different people so that people feel
motivated they feel they want to do this
they get more clarity in their thinking
it's like they can unblock themselves
and start moving and then kind of
helping people tie things back to
together I think is super important
especially for notion cuz every concept
of notion ties back together and then
this communication is not just about how
you talk or how you present yourself in
credit how you write dogs it's like
everything how do you interact with
different teams different roles of
people how do you help group of people
work better together that kind of stuff
it's very clear just listening to you
that the way that design works at notion
is it's special like you have something
very interesting there and I love this
idea of really kind of breaking outside
of the traditional roles and
responsibilities boxes in terms of what
we think of as joining a company as a
product designer and the types of things
that you'd be doing and working on and
the ways that you'll be moving the
needle for anyone that who's listening
who's like interested in this and maybe
is either in like the the San Francisco
or New York areas or somewhere like that
notion is hiring right now there are
multiple roles that are open on the
careers's page so before I I let you go
Rio I have one question for you what is
something that designers can do on their
portfolio that would really stand out
and get you excited about having them
take the next step in your hiring
process what I like seeing is like is
work like real work pictures ideally
something that like you know I can play
with that's live then take really long
on writing case studies of standard
product development process I care a lot
about all the details how you present
things how you build your website all
the typography yeah I like that it's
like treating the website almost as a
product in itself rather than just a
folder for case studies I love it well
Rio this has been amazing thank you so
much for taking the time and giving us
like a little lens into what it's like
actually designing at notion and and the
types of things that you're thinking
about this has been a lot of fun I know
there's a ton of gold nuggets for people
in there that are listening so thank you
again thank
you
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