I asked Steely Dan's engineer what makes a recording sound good

Summary

The video features an interview with Bill Schnee, a highly accomplished recording engineer and producer who has worked with numerous renowned artists. It explores his initial discovery of his passion for audio production, his unique creative process in the studio, his philosophy of serving the music, and his emphasis on establishing an emotional connection in the recordings. The discussion also covers evolving music technologies over Bill's long career, the current state of the industry, and how he still finds exciting new talent to work with, like his favorite modern artist Bruno Mars carrying on the old school R&B tradition that Bill loves.

Takeaways

• 😊 Bill fell in love with producing when he heard how a studio's sound system emotionally affected him
• 🎹 Bill sees himself as serving the artists and their music when producing
• 🌟 Bill approaches each song like a painter - adding only what's needed
• 🎤 Capturing vocals and lyrics that spark imagination and visuals is key
• 👂 Bill still mixes by feel, guided by the right brain
• 💻 New technology like automation forced Bill to change his process
• 🥁 Drums have unique human feels based on how drummers' brains work
• 🤖 Drum machines don't have the human feel that Bill loves
• 😕 Too much technical info makes production about technology, not music
• 🙂 Bruno Mars' old school R&B excites Bill today

Q & A

How did Bill first get interested in music production?

Bill first fell in love with music production when he heard the emotional impact that a studio's sound system could have on a playback. He was struck by how the sound could enhance the feeling of the music.

What is Bill's approach to serving the artists he works with?

Bill sees his roles as engineer and producer as servant roles - he is there to serve the artist and their music. He gives his opinions but tries to shape the sound to deliver what the song and artist intend emotionally.

Why does Bill think imagery is important in music?

Bill believes imagery in lyrics and production helps create a visual aspect and world that draws in the listener. This imagery and world building enhances the feeling and impact of the music.

What is Bill's mixing process like?

Bill likes to mix as a performance from start to finish, guided by feel and his right brain instincts. He marks mixer levels statically then tweaks dynamically as the song plays to enhance the emotion.

How did the advent of 8-track recording change studios?

8-track recording enabled more isolation for better control in mixing, but led studios to become very dead-sounding by eliminating sound bleeding between mics. The goal became perfect separation.

Why was working with multiple drummers challenging when recording Steely Dan's Gaucho?

Using different drummers gave different feels, forcing Bill to get distinct drum sounds for each one. This showed the importance of drummer feel, lost with rigid drum machines.

Why does spill and isolation matter more now than in older productions?

Pop recordings today often use very close miking versus an overall sound. This means spill and isolation matter more than when aiming for a overall natural room sound.

How can today's abundance of tech information overwhelm new engineers?

With endless videos and guides on technical details, new engineers can get overwhelmed with tech minutiae versus focusing on musicality and expression.

What does Bill see as the main drawback of reduced labels today?

Fewer labels provide less mentorship for developing artists over time. Most artists need support improving over multiple albums as they hone their voice.

What kind of music still excites Bill today?

Bill loves Bruno Mars' music because it embodies the old-school R&B sound that is Bill's favorite genre. He blends vintage sounds with modern production.

Outlines

00:00

😊 Bill's journey into music production

This paragraph describes how Bill first got into music production. He joined a high school band where he met guitarist Richie Podler who had his own studio. When Bill heard his band's song played back in Richie's funky studio, he had an 'aha moment' realizing the impact of sound quality. This set the course for his career.

05:02

😃 Using imagination and visuals in music

This paragraph discusses Bill's love of Beach Boys music and the importance of imagination and visual imagery in songwriting and production. Bill tries to elicit an emotional response and connection in the music he produces. He sees his role as serving the artist and their creative vision.

10:03

🎹 Bill's approach to recording and production

This paragraph outlines Bill's hands-on approach to recording and mixing. He balances elements by feel to deliver the song's intent emotionally. He adopted new technologies like automation while still retaining his artistic sensibilities. The goal is a great-sounding final product, not reality.

15:04

🥁 The importance of drums

This paragraph examines why drums are so crucial in recording. Bill loves their human feel. With Asia, having different drummers gave unique feels. For Gaucho, Steely Dan used a drum machine for perfection but lost human elements. Bill captures what sounds/feels best, not what's most real.

20:06

💻 Perspective on changes in music technology

This paragraph presents Bill's thoughts on changes in music technology. He's unsure what the future holds. There's lots of information today which can confuse rather than help artists focus on the music. Record labels once nurtured artists; now artists must develop alone.

Keywords

💡producer

A producer in music is the person responsible for overseeing and managing the recording of an album or song. As Bill says, producers serve the artists and their music by making creative decisions to help realize the intended vision. Producers like Bill aim to establish an emotional connection in the music. In the video, Bill talks about his approach as a producer.

💡engineer

An audio engineer in music is responsible for the technical side of recording, including setting up equipment, adjusting sound levels, and operating mixing consoles. Bill started out interested in the engineering side before becoming a producer. He talks about learning engineering by having a studio owner teach him what all the equipment does.

💡sound

In music production, the sound refers to both the tonal quality/timbre of instruments and voices and the audio balance between them. Bill had an "aha moment" listening to a playback, where he realized the immense impact sound has on emotional response. He aims to sculpt sound to serve the song.

💡mixing

Mixing in music production means balancing and blending all the recorded tracks down to a final stereo master. Bill talks about his approach to mixing live in the analog days by feel, marking mixer positions, trying ideas, and aiming for an artistic performance.

💡drums

As a "wannabe drummer," Bill focuses a lot on the drums when producing. He loves their rhythmic human feel, which machines can't replicate. The video explores Bill and Steely Dan's intense search for flawless drum sounds on Asia and Gaucho albums.

💡music technology

This refers to devices and software used in music production. The video charts major technological shifts Bill adapted through, like multitrack recording, automated mixers, and drum machines. While technology opens creative options, Bill cautions it shouldn't overwhelm musicality.

💡imagerylyrics

Bill correlates visual imagery in music with evocative lyrics that let listeners imagine scenes or stories. He praises Beach Boys' and Brian Wilson's lyrics for their strong imagery that transported him imaginatively and emotionally.

💡record labels

Music record labels funded artist development and studio time during Bill's early years, which he considered very valuable even amid labels' other problems. Today's shift away from labels troubles Bill, as new artists lack guidance.

💡musical balance

For Bill, musical balance involves thoughtfully adjusting instrument volumes and positions to craft an emotive sound. Modern music technology offers unlimited options, which Bill worries distracts artists from this core goal of great musical/artistic balance.

💡serving the song

This encapsulates Bill's producer philosophy - using one's skills in service of the songwriting and intended emotional impact. He aims to flesh out songs effectively without overproducing, trusting when the material itself is strong.

Highlights

Had an 'aha moment' seeing the emotional impact of a recording studio's sound quality

Views recording engineering and producing as 'servant roles' to serve the artist and their music

Tries to approach each song like a painter - add only what's necessary to bring out the essence

Imagery and visual aspects in lyrics contribute greatly to the impact and artistry of the music

Used to mix tracks live in real-time like a 'performance', later adopted moving fader automation

8-track recording marked a shift - leakage between mics became undesirable, dead studios constructed

Drums carry emotional 'feel', drum machines don't compare to human playing

Steely Dan tried recording drum tracks with multiple drummers, searching for 'perfect' drums

Too much technical info for young musicians today - need more guidance to focus on the music

Record labels used to mentor artists, allow them to develop over multiple albums - lacking today

Excited by artists like Bruno Mars carrying on old school R&B traditions into the modern age

Always interesting to see where music technology and industry changes lead creatively

Can still relate to new music today at his age, so can keep actively working and contributing

Undoubtedly great musical gifts and creativity still exist today as they always have

Shift to leasing music vs selling records fundamentally changed industry dynamics and artist development

Transcripts

he certainly can't poo poo what Donald

and Walter came up with but some of the

stuff I mean I have to raise an eyebrow

on that one this is Bill schneid he's

known as the engineers engineer he's won

multiple Grammy and Emmy Awards and has

over 125 gold and platinum records to

his name

throughout the 70s and 80s and still to

this day bill is the guy responsible for

giving so many great records the sound

they needed I got in touch with Bill

because I made a video about the

creative process behind Asia he was the

engineer on that album Bill's approach

to creating music is truly unique not

only does he have a great technical

knowledge but he also has a deep

understanding of music as an art form

I spoke with Bill to try and learn more

about his process and to get his

thoughts on music and the future of

production

if you've read Bill's book then you'll

know that as well as all this knowledge

and wisdom he has some great stories to

tell so stick around to the end because

there's so much to learn from Bill

I started by asking him how he first

fell in love with producing music

I my parents moved from San Francisco to

Los Angeles from when I was 16 for my

senior year of high school and in the

new school I met some guys that were

starting a band and I joined in with

them and we wrote some songs played

around as high school bands will do and

and wrote some songs and we got them to

a guy at uh that had just made a

production deal with Deca records his

name was Gary Usher Gary was an

interesting guy he uh was friends with

the beach boy family the Wilson family

and he actually wanted to be a beach boy

and uh and they didn't take him but he

did write two songs two of their big

hits in my room and 409 with Brian

so he had this production deal and he

thought we had we sent him four or five

songs and he thought one of them was a

hit for sure and he signed us up and we

recorded at Capitol and Western

two of the best Studios at the time and

still to this day

um

well in those days you know they put out

a single or two and if you had a hit you

ran in and recorded

six songs whatever it took to fill out

an album and we didn't have a hit so

there was no La teens album but

um

in in the process our first night he had

brought in Gary had brought in this very

talented guitar player to augment the

band a guy named Richie podler and it

turns out that Richie Potter was also an

in addition to being an incredible

guitar player he was also an incredible

engineer and ultimately producer and he

had built his own studio so when we got

dropped I went over to his place and

told him the sad story and he said oh

you guys were good I can get you a

record deal go see this guy Mike Curb

he's going to go places so we went to

see my curve and he signed us up and we

went into Richie's studio to record a

song and

uh here his Studio was a lot funkier

than those really nice professional

Studios and I didn't know anything about

what made a good Studio but when I came

in we we cut our first track and when I

came in for the playback the sound that

came out of the speakers did something

to me emotionally that the other

playbacks and the other great Studios

hadn't done and I realized right then

what a difference the sound could make

so much so that I turned to him right

there and said can you teach me what all

this stuff does and he said no no I'm

teaching Bill Cooper here you go out and

do another take

you know let's get back to the music but

that was that as you put it aha moment

where I it set the course of my life

this is the start of understanding what

makes bills so great as a producer he

sees music as an art form and tries to

develop this emotional connection to it

but how does he do this considering he's

often working for other artists

I've always felt that both recording

engineering and producing our servants

roles I'm there to serve the artist and

their music

so uh you know I'm now since I'm there

and being paid you know for for my

opinions on either one or both of those

jobs uh obviously I'm going to give them

but it's it's absolutely to serve them

and uh you know it's I I think that when

I whenever I start a song approach a

song

um I'm I'm trying you know usually the

artist depends on the artist some

artists will have a definite feeling

about what they want how they want it

they don't know how to get it others

haven't got a clue so I I always

especially as a producer I always looked

at it like a good painter a good painter

will come along in a house if somebody

buys a used an old house and they come

in and he looks and hear this wall well

it doesn't need it it's been painted

recently it doesn't need anything it

goes in the Next Room and oh there's

some this could use a code of paid so

he'll prime it and it goes into the next

room and there's like holes in the wall

so now he has to fill the holes and then

do the priming and the painting well

sort of like that you do whatever is

necessary if you know and that's the

creative decision on my part a right

brain decision obviously but if

something that that is very important is

to I think is leave well enough alone

you know is to know when something is

good you don't need to recreate the

wheel one of the best ways of

establishing this connection is trying

to find something that uses your

imagination

something bill and I have in common is

our love of the Beach Boys I love their

music because it takes me away to

another world I asked Bill about the

importance of imagery in music and how

he uses his imagination uh first of all

I'm right with you uh in fact in the

beginning I was much more of a Beach

Boys fan than a Beatles fan

that that eventually turned around me

sadly because the Beach Boys didn't stay

at the Beach Boys when Brian kind of

lost the

number

um unfortunately but

um yeah and it you know and he obviously

was just absolutely brilliant and

especially especially with vocals uh you

know he had he was a big fan of a lot of

those four-part Harmony groups that were

right before his time and he managed to

incorporate those into a much obviously

a very contemporary setting in terms of

uh both both musically and especially

lyrically

um

and and and his songs and the way he

performed them were uh extremely visual

um and I think there is an aspect of

that that some of the you know that that

gets into the the songwriting starts

with the songwriting of course and then

goes on to what the production how the

production fleshes it out but the uh so

much of imagery comes from lyrics

whether it's a love song uh you know or

an angst song or whatever you're trying

to communicate

um so I'm with you on that for sure the

the visual aspect of what it can be and

what it and that's when it's really the

best I think so this gives us a bit of

an idea about Bill's creative process

but what does this role actually look

like in the studio and what's he doing

behind the desk to try and work towards

this finished product

when I started

um uh my my first session when I had the

aha moment and Richie wouldn't teach me

I went off to another studio and it was

kind of a not a very well done studio uh

and it was only stereo so that meant

that every session

um was mixed live that was the that was

the finished product which uh was a

great thing for me to to learn on

because that to me is still the one the

most important thing to me is balancing

the elements to to get that to deliver

what the song is trying to say hopefully

on an emotional level

so

um when I started and got into then

let's starting with 8tracks 16 24 48

before there was any computer help for

mixing I mixed you know I like to mix uh

as you say uh for a performance which

mean I started at the beginning and went

straight through the song being Guided

by the right brain I had it I would mark

this I had paper little tapes on the

individual faders that I had a mark

where I got the static balance that I

felt was good but after that it was up

to me as to what was going to happen and

some things worked some things might not

then the next one I'll do the ones that

worked and try something in the spots

that didn't work that kind of thing

uh when we finally got

um

uh for me it was probably around 1980

when we got computers to help us that

would be moving fader automation that

consoles would have faders that were

connected to a computer that had Motors

in them so that you moved the fader and

it registered in the computer and then

when you play back the tape the next

time it moved the faders when I finally

had got those and installed that in my

studio

um it took me a while to learn to let

the computer help me because it was

messing with me it was taking away from

my my ability to to do the performance

uh so that wasn't a big adjustment which

I was forced to make because we got into

so many tracks that you couldn't really

do it you know we got to 48 tracks that

that's just a little too much to handle

uh moving moving on the fly as the song

goes down

one of Bill's foundational principles is

the understanding that it's necessary to

keep up with changing technology

perhaps this is why his career has

lasted so long and why he still loves

producing music

but often new technology and artists

don't work in Perfect Harmony especially

when the technology can become

overpowering

eight track to me is the word the

beginning of recording studios change

because the sound of recording studios

is being built because up to that point

Studios were built for the ensemble in

the room to sound good and the balance

was done you know in great part by

moving the instruments as well as the

microphones to get them in the right uh

placed for a good sound and when they

went to when we went to eight uh eight

track it was the bill of goods was uh

well we can put things on a separate

track and the great news about that is

now when we come back we can come back

and uh you know first of all we can do

overdubs a lot more easily and now when

we mix it we we can actually do a mix

down and we can even change the

arrangement somewhat so my analog my uh

uh example I always give us a producer

gets hooked into the eight track puts

the drums on a track the piano on a

track and so on and then he comes to the

mix and he engineer says what do you

think of the mix it sounds good but what

would it be like without drums in the

intro and he turns the drums off and lo

and behold he says but I still hear the

symbols and the engineer goes yeah boom

that's the spill into the piano so we

can't take the drums out of the intro no

but I'll I'll fix that next time and

that was the beginning of you know

blanketing the piano and ultimately from

there leakage became a bad words the the

sound of one instrument getting in

another instrument's microphone you had

to have control so that's where the

construction of Studios that were dead

uh began and that's what I grew up in by

and large 1980 was an interesting year

for music technology especially from

Bill's perspective because after Asia

Steely Dan started using a drum machine

for that album Gaucho for Bill drums are

one of the most important parts of the

recording process so I asked how this

worked when recording Asia yeah well the

interesting thing about

Asia was when Gary Katz the producer

called and asked if I wanted to do the

next Steely Dan album and I said

absolutely he said it's going to be a

revolving door of drummers they want to

try all kinds of guys out on it and uh

so you'll be getting a new drum sound

every few days and I said okay that's no

problem and uh I don't think they ever

tried the same song with more than one

drummer I think that you know they they

had certain whether they actually knew

what they were if they had pre-planned

that I don't know but but you know we

did Black Cow once and we never did it

again with someone else

so

um and they and obviously I mean to to

my one of my favorite things about

drummers is how they feel I'm a wannabe

drummer I'm a keyboard player at heart

but I'm a I'm a wannabe drummer and I

love who drums and and all that and I

love the way they feel and that's I said

in my book uh you know that's how the

brain directs the four appendages that

are going on in a drummer uh to to play

and some people their brains have them

like a clock and some and and they they

learn to do this they can learn to do

this uh they're they're perhaps their

left hand on the snare is just a little

bit late to the bass drum the bass drum

beats and the hi-hat might just be kind

of just a little bit in between both of

those that kind of thing and that's what

makes the feel of a drummer

um and as you point out you know drum

machines don't really they've worked

really hard and they've gotten a lot

better people making them and and

program even why not to to to give them

a sense of feel but uh it's it's not the

same as a human being that's for sure by

the time Goucher came around Donald and

water were then using the drum machine

Wendell to try and get that perfect

sound

it gave them exactly what they wanted

but it also took away some of the human

elements of playing

so they got obviously definitely

different feels on Asia with the

different drummers

then they go to when they went to the

next album

um Gaucho they they were they were

searching for the best the perfect drums

whatever that means

and I'll never forget by one of my great

friends uh Jeff Porcaro fabulous

unbelievable drummer that he was

came back from a week in New York to Los

Angeles and hop hopped in the studio one

day and I said how did it go with Donald

and Walter and he said it was grueling

he said they had me three days I played

the same song for three days with three

different Rhythm sections

and their theory was that I would play

differently with different Rhythm

sections and all they were trying was to

get my drum track and then they would go

back in and record all the instruments

to that drum track

and uh

what can I say uh you know everybody's

creativity works and the way the way it

works and you certainly can't

you certainly can't poo poo what Donald

and Walter came up with but some of the

stuff I mean I have to raise an eyebrow

on that one so why is it drums so

important both for Bill and for Donald

and Walter in this case what is it

exactly that they're searching for

well I mean if if you stand 10-15 feet

in front of a drum set it's pretty loud

and rashy still you know and yet and yet

if you mic'd it out there and tried to

make a pop record it it's too distance

you know for the most part so then it

becomes mics on drums and uh and I I

figured out early on with regard to

all kinds of things the piano is the

same thing you know what does the piano

sound right is it you know out in the

audience of a 10 you know a 10-foot

Grand or eight foot grand out in the

audience on a concert or a what about on

a pop thing you know maybe a a couple of

feet out same thing but yet everyone's

putting mics in the piano and I so I

realized early on that it's not about

reality it's about it's not about

reality it's about whatever comes out of

speakers that's going to be euphoric

that's going to feel good and sound good

and that kind of thing is this kind of

philosophy that bill has which has kept

so much of the Artistry and Humanity in

the music that he's worked on

but technology has changed so much over

the past few decades so I wanted to get

his thoughts on these changes and also

how he saw things changing going forward

well it's an often asked question and

the often provided answer is I don't

know who knows you know

I mean

you know in turn the as I touched on

earlier

um the uh the fact that we don't have as

much of the record companies helping

artists along is not necessarily a

positive thing

there's no lack of creativity I mean you

know I believe God gives gifts to people

and the people that He blesses with

their musical gift I don't think he's

you know

hasn't given up or stopped or anything

like that it's just how did we go about

getting it developed the best way

possible and which brings up another

thing that uh is that from an

engineering standpoint one of the

problems right now for me is that there

is so much let me rephrase that there's

too much information out there and it's

become too technical

um by that I mean you can go on YouTube

and there are hundreds maybe thousands

of how to's by different people or their

subscription Services even more with

Masters that will show you how they do

this and they do that and uh and that's

all well and good but

um you know it some of it is very

contradicting and kind of confusing I

would think and the other thing about

that is that they've got it's gotten

into such a because there is so much

technology inside

of a Daw

that one of my kind of gripes is that

the the kids are being

concentrating you're forced to

concentrate on that alluding to

something you said much earlier so

concentrating on that instead of the

name of the game which is the the

musical balance the music itself if

you're spending all your time thinking

of all these things you know within the

framework of different aspects of Pro

Tools when are you going to have time to

think about the music so maybe this is

what's really important for young

musicians trying to give them that aha

moment that Bill had when he was younger

and this is what I hopefully try and do

with this channel which is to help

people fall in love with music

undoubtedly they listen to music whether

it's older music or current music

whatever and they get a form of that aha

moment where you know wow I wonder how

they do that and then the shift into

getting into it and that's when all of

this technology can get in the way very

very easily and I'm not exactly sure how

to prevent that for young people but

with this in mind I asked Bill what he

thought of the current state of the

music industry and record labels as well

you know this the saddest part about the

business being gone from what from once

it once was back then a business that

had a product to sell and now it makes a

product that they lease is that of

course the Everything Has Changed with

regard to to the uh help that a record

company can give an artist the good news

is anybody and everybody can start

making records at a very early age the

bad news is is that all artists need

time to develop and and as I'm familiar

as familiar as K2 or I'm this familiar

as anyone with the ills of the record

business but they provided a lot of

positives and mentoring and

helping artists along giving them for

instance a producer like we like the LA

teens had a producer to help you and and

guide you because you don't really when

you're starting out you don't know that

much about what you're doing and so back

in the day you found that if an if a

record company believed in an artist

they would do a second record or even a

third record with them they stuck with

them uh uh uh a band that I produced in

the 70s Pablo Cruise it was uh they had

done two

two albums when I did the third that

didn't do that well or not you would not

say they were hit albums but the record

company believed in them and then they

they changed producers to myself but

mostly the fact that they uh I won't

take all the credit they they sent me a

song that I knew was a hit what you're

gonna do and uh but it just shows that

there was three uh that you know that

was three times today they are record

companies are signing many many fewer

artists a small fraction and finally

what excites Bill about music today

uh what excites me in music today Bruno

Mars

um

uh yeah I'm a huge Bruno fan you know

and why not because you know old school

r b is probably my favorite genre I like

all music I've been very very fortunate

to have success in all areas of music

all genres of music but old school r b

is probably my favorite and that's

clearly what you know he is the modern

version of that and uh smooth Sonic is

that what it is that that one album is

nothing but that but uh but yeah

um the there's no question that there's

um you know I go looking for uh for

things to excite me and they are there

they're definitely there uh a little

fewer and far between than maybe 30

years ago but but it's there and

undoubtedly uh as as things change and

they will they have and they will

continue to change it's it's it it it it

always has

um it'll be very interesting and fun to

see where where everything is going uh I

certainly I I can still relate to

everything so that I can still keep

working in other words if if I couldn't

relate to it it'd be very hard for me to

you know to know how to integrate how to

offer my services thank you so much to

bill for giving up his time and speaking

with me and for being so kind and

answering so many questions this video

isn't sponsored or paid for by Bill but

he does have a book out so if you

enjoyed these stories and you'd like to

learn more about his life and his

process I highly encourage you to check

out his book I'll put a link in the

description

[Music]