Zeke Hernandez on "The Takeout" | June 9, 2024

Summary

この動画は、移民問題についての深い洞察を提供しています。司会者は、事実がいかに重要であるかを強調し、移民に関する誤解や固定観念を解き明かそうとしています。ゲストのZeke Hernandezは、自身の移民としての経験と、経済学者としての知識をもとに、移民が社会や経済に与えるポジティブな影響について語ります。特に、移民がイノベーションや投資を促進し、犯罪率が低いことを示すデータを共有します。動画は、移民が社会に与える真の影響についての理解を深め、現行の移民政策への批判的な視点を提供します。

Takeaways

• 📚 「移民についての真実」という本の著者、Zeke Hernandezは、移民が経済に与える影響を研究しているビジネス教授であり、ウルグアイ出身の移民であることが明かされます。
• 🌟 Zeke Hernandezは、アメリカに留学するために22年以上前に来たが、移民研究者になる予定はなかったと述べ、経済繁栄の研究を通じて移民の重要性を認識したと語ります。
• 🔍 移民に対する2つの誤解：「悪人説」と「被害者説」が存在すると指摘され、事実に照らしてどちらも誤っていることが強調されています。
• 🚀 移民は経済、文化、社会的な成功に寄与しており、経済的に見ると「勝ち組」と見なすことができます。
• 🏛️ アメリカの初期移民政策は開放的で、1850年頃までは出身地を問わず誰でも移民ができました。
• 📉 1920年代に移民制限が始まり、特に南欧や東欧からの移民が大幅に減少し、アメリカの経済にも影響を与えたと記載されています。
• 🛑 1965年の移民法改正で、国別の枠組みが廃止され、アジアやラテンアメリカからの現代の移民波が始まりました。
• 🏦 移民はビジネス創設率が高く、投資を誘致し、発明にも貢献していることが強調されています。
• 🚑 移民、特に無証移民の犯罪率は低く、アメリカの安全を高める要因であることが示されています。
• 💰 移民は平均して税金にポジティブな貢献をしており、長期的には経済的にも利益をもたらすとされています。
• 🚨 現在の移民討論の状況は、移民自己だけでなくアメリカの利益にも有害であるとZeke Hernandezは警告しています。

Q & A

Zeke Hernandezはどのような経歴を持っていますか？

Zeke Hernandezはウルグアイ出身で、ビジネス教授としてWharton Schoolで約11年間勤務しています。彼は経済、特に移民が経済に与える影響を研究しており、アメリカに留学した後、アメリカに滞在しています。

移民が経済に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの見解とは何ですか？

Zeke Hernandezは、移民が経済にポジティブな影響を与えると主張しています。彼は移民が投資、ジョブ創出、イノベーションに寄与すると述べています。

移民に対する一般的な誤解には何がありますか？

一般的な誤解としては、移民が職業を奪う、文化を台無しにしたり、犯罪を増加させるとされている「悪者ナラティブ」と、移民が私たちに依存し、高額なコストをもたらす「犠牲者ナラティブ」があります。

移民がアメリカに与える経済的利点には何がありますか？

移民はアメリカに投資をもたらし、ビジネスを展開し、新しいジョブを作成することができ、経済繁栄に寄与しています。また、移民は発明家として多数の特許を出申請しており、アメリカのイノベーションにも寄与しています。

移民と犯罪の関連性についてのZeke Hernandezの見解は何ですか？

Zeke Hernandezは、実際には無ocumented移民が犯罪率が最も低いグループであると指摘しています。アメリカ本土の住民よりも、移民の方が犯罪を犯す割合が低いとされています。

移民がアメリカの文化に与える影響についてどう言われていますか？

移民はアメリカの文化にも貢献しており、食品業界においても新しい食べ物を導入することで、アメリカの食文化を豊かにしています。

アメリカの移民歴史における1924年の移民法とは何ですか？

1924年の移民法は、アジアからの移民を禁止し、南欧や東欧からの移民を事実上ほぼ禁止する法的制限を設けたものです。これは当時の優生学の思想に基づいており、人種間の差別的な扱いを正当化するものでした。

1965年の移民法改正の意義は何ですか？

1965年の移民法改正は、1965年以前の人種差別的な国籍クォータ制度を廃止し、移民の数を増加させることができました。これは現代の多様な国籍からの大規模な移民の流れをもたらしました。

現在のアメリカの移民状況について教えてください。

現在、アメリカには法的に承認されていない移民も多く、彼らは経済に貢献していますが、政治的な問題や法的保護が不十分な状況にあります。

移民がアメリカの経済に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの研究の結論は何ですか？

Zeke Hernandezの研究によると、移民はアメリカの経済にポジティブな影響を与えており、経済的、文化的、社会的に勝ち組と負け組のゼロサムゲームではなく、ウィンウィンの関係があると結論付けています。

移民と公的な費用の関係についてどう説明されていますか？

移民は短期的には教育や保健などのコストを増加させる可能性がありますが、長期的には彼らは税金として大きなプラスの貢献をしており、社会保険や医療保険などの制度に対する負担を軽減することができます。

移民法の歴史的な誤りについてどう言われていますか？

移民法の歴史的な誤りは、1920年代の制限によってアメリカ経済に大きな損害を与えたことが指摘されています。移民の減少により、特許出願の減少や投資の減少が生じ、アメリカの経済的自己利益に悪影響を及ぼしたとされています。

移民がアメリカ社会に与えるポジティブな影響について具体的に例を挙げてください。

移民はアメリカ社会に多様な文化をもたらし、食文化においても新しい食べ物を紹介しています。例えば、移民によってもたらされた食品は、スーパーマーケットの食品コーナーを豊かにしています。

移民とアメリカの経済成長の関係についてどう説明されていますか？

移民はアメリカの経済成長に寄与しており、新しいビジネスの創出やジョブ創出、イノベーションの促進など、経済の多面にポジティブな影響を与えています。

移民法改正の重要性についてどう言われていますか？

移民法改正は、アメリカの経済的自己利益を守るために重要なとされており、現在の移民の「スピード制限」が低いため、より多くの移民を適切な方法で迎えることが求められています。

移民がアメリカの社会に与える影響についてのZeke Hernandezの結論は何ですか？

Zeke Hernandezは、移民がアメリカの社会にポジティブな影響を与えており、経済的、文化的、社会的に勝ち組と負け組のゼロサムゲームではなく、アメリカの繁栄に寄与していると結論付けています。

Outlines

00:00

📚 移民の真実について学ぶ

この段落では、番組で移民について真実を探求する旨が説明されています。ゲストであるZeke Hernandezは、新しい本「The Truth About Immigration」の著者で、移民が経済に与える影響を研究しているビジネス教授です。彼自身も移民であり、アメリカに留学するために22年以上前に来たと紹介されています。

05:00

🌐 移民の誤解を解く

第二段落では、アメリカにおいて移民について一般的に接受されている誤解について触れています。移民を悪者または犠牲者と見なす2つの敘事について説明し、実際の移民は経済的、文化的、社会的にプラスの貢献者であることを強調しています。また、政治的な立場に関係なく移民の経済利益について誤解を抱いていることが指摘されています。

10:02

🏛️ アメリカの移民史

第三段落では、アメリカの初期の移民政策とその後の変化について説明しています。当初は開かれた国境政策が続き、しかし1890年代に南欧・東欧からの移民が増加したことで、白人のプロテスタントのエリートに反対されました。ユーゲニクス運動とその影響下で、1924年の移民法改正が移民制限を厳格に行うに至ります。

15:03

🔬 移民不足によるアメリカの損失

第四段落では、1920年代の移民制限がアメリカの経済的自己利益に与えた影響について触れています。移民の減少が投資と特許出願の減少につながり、アメリカのイノベーション能力に悪影響を与えたと報告された研究結果について説明しています。また、1965年の移民法改正が現在の多様な移民波につながったと指摘しています。

20:06

🚫 移民と法的問題

第五段落では、現在の移民問題とその政治的背景について議論しています。バイデン大統領の移民に関する行政命令とそれに伴う批評、特に移民コミュニティからの反響について触れています。さらに、移民の実態とそれを取り扱うための法的枠組みの間のギャップを指摘しています。

25:08

💼 移民の経済的貢献

第六段落では、移民がアメリカの経済に与える影響について詳細に説明しています。移民が起業家として活躍し、投資を誘致し、イノベーションを促進するだけでなく、食の文化的多样性をもたらしていることについて触れています。また、移民が犯罪率の低下に寄与しているというデータも紹介されています。

30:11

👮‍♂️ 移民と犯罪率

第七段落では、移民と犯罪の関連性について詳述しています。移民、特に無ocumented移民の犯罪率が低いという研究結果を紹介し、一般的な誤解と対照的に移民が社会の安全に寄与していることを強調しています。

35:12

💼 移民と経済への貢献

第八段落では、移民がアメリカの経済への貢献についてさらに深掘りしています。移民が納税者として寄与し、社会保険や医療保険の財政的負担を軽減する可能性があることが議論されています。また、移民が現地コミュニティの教育コストに寄与する短期間のコストも触れられています。

40:13

🏆 移民のポジティブな影響

第九段落では、移民のアメリカへのポジティブな影響についての全体的な見解が示されています。移民法の技術的な側面に焦点を当てることの重要性と、移民がアメリカ社会に与える長期的な利益について語り、移民貢献の認識を深めるために必要な政策の議論が求められていると結びています。

Keywords

💡移民

移民とは、自国の境界を超えて新しい国に住むことを希望する人々を指します。このビデオでは、移民が経済、文化、社会に与える影響について議論されており、移民が成功した社会にとってプラスの要素であると示されています。例えば、ビデオでは移民がビジネスを始めて雇用を生み出すことが多ければ、彼らが発明特許を出すことがあると触れられています。

💡経済繁栄

経済繁栄は、経済活動が活発で、投資や雇用が増加している状態を指します。ビデオでは、移民が経済繁栄に寄与すると示されています。移民がビジネスを開始し、投資を誘致することで、経済成長を促進する役割が強調されています。

💡移民政策

移民政策とは、政府が移民を管理するための法律や規則を指します。ビデオでは、移民政策が移民の受け入れ方や移民が社会に与える影響に関連していると説明されています。特に、1924年の移民法改正と1965年の移民法の変更が、移民の流れとアメリカの経済に大きな影響を与えたと触れられています。

💡移民の誤解

移民に関する誤解は、移民が犯罪を増加させたり、経済に悪影響を与えると誤解されることがあります。ビデオでは、実際のデータがこれらの誤解と異なり、移民が経済的、社会的にプラスの影響を与えることを示しています。

💡経済学者

経済学者とは、経済に関する専門知識を持つ研究者や教授です。ビデオでは、Zeke Hernandezが経済学者として移民の経済影響について研究し、移民が経済繁栄に寄与すると示す研究結果を提供しています。

💡移民の経済的貢献

移民の経済的貢献とは、移民が経済成長や雇用創出、投資増加に寄与することを指します。ビデオでは、移民がビジネスを始めて雇用を生み出し、発明特許を出したり、投資を誘致することで経済に貢献していると強調されています。

💡移民と犯罪

移民と犯罪は、移民が犯罪率にどのように影響を与えるかという議論のキーワードです。ビデオでは、移民、特に無ocumented移民の犯罪率が実際には低く、移民が社会をより安全にすると示されています。

💡移民と税金

移民と税金は、移民がアメリカの税収にどの程度貢献しているかを示すキーワードです。ビデオでは、移民が平均的に税金を支払っており、彼らの貢献は経済的にもプラスの影響を与えていると述べられています。

💡移民と教育

移民と教育は、移民の子供たちが教育を受けることに対する議論のキーワードです。ビデオでは、移民の子供たちが教育を受けることに対する短期的なコストが存在するが、長期的には彼らが経済に貢献することが期待できると示されています。

💡移民の受け入れ

移民の受け入れは、社会が移民をどのように迎え入れるかを指します。ビデオでは、移民の受け入れがアメリカの繁栄に寄与し、移民が経済的、文化的、社会的にプラスの要素であることが強調されています。

Highlights

移民对经济的积极影响：Zeke Hernandez教授通过研究揭示了移民对经济增长、创新和就业的积极贡献。

移民的双重误解：社会上普遍存在将移民视为‘恶人’或‘受害者’的误解，而事实是移民对经济和社会都有正面影响。

移民政策的历史变迁：从最初美国的开放边境政策到1924年的移民限制法案，反映了移民政策随社会观念和政治环境的变化。

1924年移民法案对创新的负面影响：研究表明，移民限制导致了专利数量的显著下降，损害了美国的创新能力。

1965年移民法案的变革：废除了基于国别的配额制度，标志着现代大规模移民流动的开始，特别是来自亚洲和拉丁美洲的移民。

移民对专利和创新的贡献：移民不仅自身是重要的发明者，还通过合作提高了本土发明者的生产力。

移民与犯罪率的关系：数据显示，无证移民的犯罪率低于本土出生的美国人，这与普遍观念相反。

移民对公共财政的积极贡献：尽管初期存在成本，但长期来看，移民及其后代对公共财政有显著的正面贡献。

移民对解决社会保障和医疗保险财政问题的潜在帮助：移民可以增加纳税人数量，帮助缓解社会保障和医疗保险的财政压力。

移民对地方经济的影响：移民倾向于在特定地区聚集，吸引投资并创造就业机会，促进当地经济发展。

移民对文化和生活方式的贡献：移民带来了文化多样性，丰富了美国的饮食文化和日常生活。

移民法律的复杂性：Zeke Hernandez解释了非法入境的不同情况，强调了法律技术性与实际影响之间的差异。

移民政策的政治化：讨论了移民问题如何在政治上被利用，以及这如何导致对移民的误解和恐惧。

移民对美国社会长期利益的重要性：强调了移民对美国经济、文化和社会的长期积极影响。

其他国家对移民政策的调整：加拿大等国家正在积极吸引因美国移民政策而流失的人才和企业家。

Zeke Hernandez的个人经历：作为移民学者，分享了他个人从移民到成为教授的旅程，以及他对移民问题的看法。

移民辩论中的绝望与希望：Zeke Hernandez表达了对当前移民辩论的绝望，同时也提出了基于事实和证据的希望。

Transcripts

[Music]

welcome to the very best part of my

broadcast week you know here at the

takeout we love many things we love

nothing more than we love facts facts

provide Clarity they help us understand

and harness ourselves to things that are

reliable

verifiable things that are true there is

a topic raging in this country country

has been raging for decades

immigration immigration has a lot of

assumptions it has a lot of fears it has

a lot

of things that people believe that might

not be true so we're going to dig down

into the facts about immigration facts

that will surprise people on the Right

facts that will surprise people on the

left our guest help us do that Zeke

Hernandez he is the author of a new book

The Truth About immigration you see

where I'm going there the subtitle why

successful societies welcome newcomers

Zeke it's great to have you with us

thanks for joining us thank you so much

for having me introduce yourself to my

audience who is Zeke Hernandez uh I'm a

professor uh of business at the Wharton

School uh I've been there for about 11

years um I study immigration of course

and how it affects the economy uh and

generally how the movement of people

ideas and businesses create economic

prosperity and what is your story as it

relates to America and immigration well

I am an immigrant myself I was born in

the little country of Uruguay for those

who might not know that's wedge between

Brazil and Argentina a tiny little

country about three and a half million

people uh and uh I was born there uh

when I was a young child my father got

transferred to Central America for his

work and so I've been uh a foreigner in

a few different countries always in

Spanish speaking Latin America and I

moved here to the United States uh over

22 years ago to come to college and you

came on a student visa I came on a

student visa with the idea that I would

be here for about four years get a

bachelor's degree and go right back home

my motivation for coming to the US was

that in those years growing up I had

seen a lot of poverty and I was deeply

moved by the poverty I'd seen and so I

thought that I wanted to go back and

make a difference in growing the economy

uh just trying to help people uh of

course that's not exactly the way it

turned out one opportunity led to

another here in the US and um I I had

the opportunity to go to graduate school

and uh really with the motivation of

studying what is it that creates

economic

Prosperity I never intended immigration

per se not at all I always say that I'm

an accidental immigration scholar I

didn't mean to study immigration and I

think that's important to say because

given the conversation we're about to

have somebody could really um sort of

stereotype this and say okay here's

someone who's an immigrant who had

preconceived notions about immigration

and wrote this book to sort of I don't

know self- justify right his life or

something the reality is I had no

intention of studying immigration it

wasn't intellectually something I I was

curious about but as I was in graduate

school trying to understand what is it

that creates uh investment jobs

Innovation the things that really grow

in

economy uh I realize that you can't

separate that from the movement of

people because ultimately it's people

and their movement that create all those

things and so it was just a variable I

couldn't ignore a fact I couldn't get

away from and that led me down now

nearly 20 years of really digging into

the research and surprising first of all

myself because um when I came I came

with the notion that immigration might

be good for immigrants but maybe not so

good for natives that it might be a zero

sum game right in some ways I had many

if somebody gains somebody loses well

yeah capitalism has winners and losers

right so someone's winning someone's

losing and so this is a journey of 20

years in some ways of surprising myself

first realizing oh my goodness it turns

out that there's mostly win-wins

economically speaking uh and also

culturally and socially um and after

presenting this to many audiences for

many years trying to go out and and and

and share the what I had learned through

research I realized there's a big

disconnect between what the average

person knows and what the evidence

really shows and the result is this book

that we're going to talk about if you

could summarize three or four of the

leading misconceptions about immigration

as it is thought about and talked about

in America what would they

be yeah that's a wonderful question I

would say if I started at a very high

level right um we have been told and and

we believe meaning you know the average

person believes one of two narratives

about immigrants the first is what I

call the villain narrative the idea that

immigrants do us damage uh because they

either you know steal our jobs

economically they undermine our culture

they create security and safety problems

because of their criminality that's a

message that certain Poli iCal movements

and parties use very effectively to

their advantage very effectively to

Garner votes not just now but in our

past exactly so it's not not describing

something that's happening now a 100

years ago when it was Southern and

Eastern Europeans that were coming to

this country people really thought that

Italians uh Germans um uh Jews could not

possibly become part of the fabric of

America they've done just fine since

then now Asians and Latin American so

it's a perennial debate but yeah the

villain narrative that's one of them the

other narrative uh and it's interesting

because this is often presented as a

counternarrative is what I call the

victim narrative or the victim story and

this is embodied in the Statue of

Liberty Emma Lazarus holding up the

torch bring me you're tired you're poor

uh your Hudd you know your huddled

masses yearning to be free and it's a

message that's very compassionate but it

paints immigrants as needy Outsiders who

who who need us but it costs us very

much to welcome them right and the

problem with those two narratives is is

not just that the facts prove them both

wrong but uh one doesn't undermine the

other because it could be true that

immigrants are needy Outsiders who cost

us a lot right it could be true that

they're villains uh and then it comes

down to whether you think we should

favor Outsiders or insiders and and you

you know who's going to win that

political rhetorical battle right right

it's going to be the the villain

narrative that tends to win out um so

that's the first major misconception and

and what the facts show is that

immigrants are neither villains nor

victims they are net positive

contributors to everything that makes

for a prosperous economy everything that

makes for a prosperous society that

would be number one yeah

and the left tends to

embrace the victim narrative and the

right tends to embrace the villain if

they politically embrace one or the

other

I think right now that's the case and

interestingly it's a historical anomaly

that that's lining up well along party

lines but it hasn't always been that way

for example uh Many religious people who

tend to be more um more right of Center

in their politics uh really buy into

this victim narrative right because out

of say Christian

Compassion um you know we we want to

help the outsider welcome the poor and

the needy that's a new testament tenant

right um and and so yeah it's not just

left or right but it it seems to be that

way

lately and I don't want to launch into

this uh because we only have a minute

before we go to break I want to

acknowledge Chef Jeff is our host

restaurant thank them for their

Hospitality lunch will soon arrive we're

recording this on June 6th

um is there something about um

Zeke our history of immigration that you

regard as kind of a through line is

something that is a constant even though

the politics

fluctuate I think there's two constants

uh one is America benefits fantastically

from

immigration and and we'll talk about

this more I'm sure after the break but

terms of investment Innovation job

creation but most people seem not to

believe that and so the other threat is

just fear constant fear of the next wave

and that dichotomy is just very strange

right right cuz we have quantifiable

benefits yeah over many many many many

many decades that's right we have a

strong desire to come here people will

go through just about anything to get

here and yet this Fear Factor always

seems to be part of our immigration

shadow the the shadow that we cast as a

country that's right this notion of

anxiety about what's actually going to

happen or what is happening we're going

to pick up on that thread when we come

back segment two the take out coming

your way from Chef Jeffs in just one

second they even had a hierarchy of

breeds of human breeds with

nordics being the best and then

Mediterraneans being kind of the

[Music]

lowest welcome back to the takeout Zeke

Hernandez is our special guest his book

The Truth About immigration briefly Zeke

what is our origin story with

immigration like the first 50 75 years

of America yeah I mean um in the first

several decades exactly that period you

mentioned uh America had what some would

call today open borders right that is

there were no restrictions in fact the

census didn't even keep track of the

origins of people that's why we don't

have very reliable Census records in

terms of country of birth until about

1850 so anybody could come uh the

newcomers were primarily from um Western

Europe so you know England uh obviously

northern Europe Ireland eventually uh

that was the first crop right uh I think

but just to yeah settle on that for a

second folks conceptually practically

America started as an open borders

country well look I'll tell you even

more if you read the the preamble to the

Declaration of Independence one of the

things that the King of England was

accused of and one of the reasons for

separating from England was that he was

not allowing enough immigration into

America so literally one of the reasons

to declare independence was not enough

immigration I think most people also

don't know that exactly take us up to

1924 well uh to get to 1924 which is the

moment when

America uh restricted immigration

severely we have to understand what

happened in 1890 yes okay please and so

up until 1890 most immigrants are from

northern and western Europe then you

start getting Mass arrivals from

Southern and Eastern Europe Italians

Greeks Russians Jews Catholics instead

of

Protestants and the only way to say it

is it's completely freaked out the

establishment um the white Protestant

establishment yeah people just thought

that these immigrants were different

that they couldn't assimilate they their

languages were too different

and between 1890 and 1920 there was a

30-year concerted

campaign driven mostly by Northeastern

Elites um who purported to show that

these immigrants were inferior inferior

economically mentally emotionally they

couldn't handle democracy this coincided

with the Heyday of eugenics and so the

the arguments were racialized oh thank

you of course tristany is here with

lunch thank you very much of course you

guys enjoy okay thank you anything else

great thank you um and there were

commissions formed there were lots of um

investigatory efforts undertaken things

published about this to essentially

verify and establish this truth that's

correct so it had the patina of

scientific proof right the Dillingham

Dillingham Commission in 1907 was the

first one uh the Dillingham commission

wasn't as motivated by Eugenics although

they they did claim to prove that these

immigrants are inferior but really what

what what allowed the movement to have a

lot of legitimacy was between the early

1910s and the 1920s the Eugenics

movement really took off and for my

audience briefly explain what Eugenics

meant Eugenics was the pseudo science of

creating a pure people through genetic

crossbreeding right in the same way that

you come up with a superior strain of

corn or a superior type of

cow right that you breed for certain

purposes you could do that with humans

okay and um and this was a a a widely

accepted science in the early

1900s that became and a lot of fear

about

mixing

races and breeds in other words yeah

yeah and they even had a hierarchy of

breeds of human breeds with

nordics being the best and uh and

Mediterraneans you know alpines kind of

beneath them and Mediterraneans being

kind of the lowest and uh and then there

were kind of these asiatics which were

like as good as animals um anyway so

that was the what led to the

justification 1924 is pivotal because um

imp partly driven by post World War I

fears um the the first the emergency

quotas act in 1921 and then the national

quotas act in 1924 are passed and these

laws establish quotas that ban all

immigrants from Asia and virtually ban

all immigrants from Southern and Eastern

Europe and the way they do that is they

set the quota to be 2% of whatever their

representation in the US population was

all the way back in 1890 by 1890 become

because almost no Southern and Eastern

Europeans had arrived and so that made

it so that immigration from Italy well

the countries I just mentioned dropped

by more than 90% more than 90% right

three three countries for the next four

decades three countries uh uh England

Ireland and Germany accounted for more

than three quarters of all immigrant

immigration into the US and in the

intervening decades after

1924 What happened to let's say one

particular part of America Innovation as

expressed through patents yeah so this

is really important um I think I think

rightly so the National Origins Act gets

cond condemned for its xenophobia and

racism and and and you know rightly so

but where it doesn't get condemned

enough is how much damage it did to

America's own economic self-interest

what you're referring to is there's uh

studies that have come out showing that

in the places that suffered the greatest

declines in Immigration because of these

quotas us-born scientists these are

native scientists um suffered a decline

of over nearly 70% in patenting

permanently right this this is not

foreign born science this is native

scientists who missed out from the new

ideas of collaborating uh from

collaborating with these foreign born

scientists right this is really bad for

Innovation it's really bad for National

Security right a lot of a lot of the

listeners or viewers here have watched

like Oppenheimer right Oppenheimer

popularized this idea of oh my gosh

Germany could have come up with the

nuclear bomb well that was also true for

advances in chemistry and weapons and a

lot of technologies that are important

for national security companies as well

patented a lot less uh because of the

loss of foreign born

scientists then take us to

1965 what changes and why yeah

so um just real quick one more thing it

wasn't just technological losses us-born

workers lost jobs even though people

thought they were protecting native

workers and and places that suffered the

most losses from immigrants due to the

1920s restrictions even to this day

today get fewer investment than they did

100 years ago so these these

restrictions have cast a long negative

economic

shadow um 1965 right so as the cold war

is Raging and as the Civil Rights

Movement is going all of a sudden the US

can't legitimately claim to be a beacon

of

freedom and and rights uh while having

an openly racist IM migration system so

in

1965 uh after some years of effort um

the Johnson Administration passes uh the

Immigration Act of 1965 which undid the

the the quotas by country okay they

raised the sealing on the number of

immigrants allowed uh by a reasonable

amount they about doubled it but the

biggest change was not having quotas by

country and so that led to our Modern

Wave of mass migration this time from

Asia and Latin America right up until

now and and and the The Arc of the story

is that immigrants were about 15% of the

US population and in the early 1900s

they went that went down to less than 5%

by 1970 and now we've gone up to about

15% again about 15% again 15% right now

yeah are foreign born foreign born and

that is inclusive of those who are with

and without documentation that's correct

that's correct and what is unique about

this way

is that we do have a very large

population of undocumented immigrants uh

nearly a quarter of all immigrants in

this country are here without uh uh

authorization without green cards or

visas

yeah and is that an historically large

percentage Yeah undocumented yes very

large uh you know historically sort of

it's at the largest ever the thing is

you have to realize until 1924 we didn't

have um any quotas right and so you

couldn't have undocumented or illegal

immigration because there were no limits

I mean there were some exceptions for

some Asians but broadly speaking there

were no limits so it's only when we

started implementing systems of quotas

that it was possible for people to be

here without authorization and we do

have a large population that is MHM when

we come back we'll talk about things

that are very topical right now like

President Biden's recent executive order

to to quote unquote close down the US

Mexican border Our Guest Zeke Hernandez

our restaurant Chef Jeff's lunch is here

segment three of the takeout in just one

second I think where the popular

narrative diverges from the facts is in

why we have such a large uh problem at

the border

[Music]

welcome back to the takeout Zeke

Hernandez is our special guest his book

The Truth About immigration uh Zeke as

you well know President Biden signed an

executive order this very week it is

being uh criticized heavily in some

quarters of the Immigrant Community yeah

those who Advocate politically on behalf

of undocumented immigrants and IM

immigrants generally

uh it is clearly a political response to

a persistent political problem for the

president driven by a sense of anxiety

about what's happened on the southern

border and the

arrival of many many undocumented

immigrants yeah

uh you write in the book about how the

politics of

immigration can lead

to either policies or law

laws that can do unexpected harm yeah

would you classify this executive action

in that broad

category I would say so um I understand

the political reasons for the president

to do this and I think that it's

understandable that there is indeed

chaos at the border um and the problem

of undocumented immigration is a problem

that needs to be solved I think where

the popular

narrative diverges from the facts is in

why we have such a large uh problem at

the Border in such a large undocumented

population I like to say that um before

we can figure out the best way for

people to come into this country it's

good to be informed about what they

actually do once they're here right

right because it makes a big

difference to set it makes a big

difference if these newcomers are

bringing benefits or not right um if

they're bringing benefits then we should

enact policies to encourage their coming

of course in an orderly manner if

they're harming us like the villain

narrative says and we should have

policies that limit their entry the

problem is these border debates we have

are totally divorced from any sense of

what immigrants actually do and so what

happens is we have had six decades where

the mindset has been let's enforce the

Border ever more and pour more resources

into enforcement okay into border

control into border control right an

analogy I use in the book is uh the

analogy of speed limits okay imagine

that you have a super highway okay and

an interstate highway well if that

highway is the main uh the main

thoroughfare through which we get

Innovation investment all the benefits

of immigration that research documents

and now all of a sudden you put a speed

limit of 20 M an hour on that Highway

what's going to happen right well people

who have to get to work right people who

are running for their lives they're

going to speed they're going to cross a

border without authorization right

because there's a very powerful

incentive because American businesses

really want them and really need them

and so the the the main what I'm trying

to get at is that the main reason we

have a lot of undocumented immigration

is because the immigration speed limit

is too low that is the number of people

we need for economic humanitarian and

family reasons is much higher than the

number of people the system allows just

give you one example 700,000 working age

people die in the US each year this is

working age this is not retirees our

legal system doesn't allow us to replace

them not even that number let alone the

number of new people we need as

businesses grow as uh our demographic

profile becomes older and more and more

people retire so when you get that big

of a mismatch you have these surges at

the border um that happen and so if you

keep enforcing a 25 M hour speed limit

on a highway sure you can keep adding

more cops you can keep giving more

speeding tickets but you're not solving

the problem that the speed limit is too

low and so the problem with these

executive orders is that they're not

changing the speed limit and that's why

we need this you know often referred to

comprehensive immigration reform to

bring up the speed limit what does the

data

tell us about undocumented immigrants

and the costs they impose or the

benefits they create for our

society yeah undocumented

immigrants uh bring all the same

economic benefits that any immigrant

does and that's I know surprising to

many but um you know let's just go

through so I'll throw up kind of a a

quick list of facts out there right um

where immigrants settle investment

follows right so you want investment in

your

community well immigrants bring more

investment in two ways one is they're

80% more likely to start businesses than

natives so those businesses right that's

80% 80% nearly double and those

businesses create jobs not just for

immigrants but for many natives also

when a population when a critical mass

of people from a certain country settles

in a certain place companies from that

country of origin invest there as well a

story that I love to tell is a story of

pooo one of the fastest growing

restaurants in this country restaurant

from Guatemala they're the most popular

fast food chain in Central America and

they're

beloved they invested in the US 20 years

ago because there was a large Central

American population in different parts

of the US and they have kind of settled

and established restaurants in those

communities but they're responsible for

creating over 5,000 jobs and that's a

low estimate and those jobs are not just

for immigrants right why because the

investment so the Immigrant Community

came first investment from Central

America followed and jobs were created

as a result okay well that doesn't that

happens whether an immigrant is here

legally or not right many of the Central

American population is here without

authorization but the investment still

follows right uh Investments bring a lot

of innovation they represent uh sorry

did I say Investments immigrants

immigrants are 16% of all inventors in

the US they account for 36% of all

patents 36% so more than double their

representation some of that is because

they directly are the inventors on

record but about a third of that is

because they make Native inventors more

productive um Native inventors learn

something or see something because of a

collaboration with an immigrant yeah a

simple story that that illustrates that

well there was an Indian doctor in

Mississippi

um who who had um you know done some of

his training in India but some of his

training in Canada then ended up working

here in the United States Dr Hari P Ki

uh Dr kohi started talking with a

colleague who thought he had to amputate

the leg of a patient because the patient

the leg had a wound that wouldn't heal

okay and Dr kohy remembered that in

India he' taken some lessons on

ayurvedic medicine where they talked

about the healing properties of

turmeric so he talks about about this

with his colleague another doctor and

they say well let's try turmeric I mean

all hope is lost anyway we might as well

try something new the patient leg heals

and they ended up doing a clinical trial

and filing the very first patent in the

US on the healing properties of turmeric

now what's interesting is after that

native born us-born scientists patent

all the followon applications of

turmeric for Medical Practice in the

United States so by collaborating with

an Indian doctor new knowledge that then

gets expanded so when you go to your

Supermarket or your Pharmacy and you see

turmeric on the Shelf in the wellness

section the reason you see it there is

because of this collaboration so very

long ago that's right it's not that some

random person found it on Google it

doesn't happen that way the movement of

ideas right happens because people move

right and it's not just um what I call

highbrow this is highbrow stuff right

patents you know Medical

Technologies uh what's making our

interview possible the transistors and

microchips that allow us to transmit

many of the of those Innovations

introduced because of immigrant Talent

that's all highbrow stuff but you

mentioned your supermarket and the

supermarket aisle let's go to another

aisle let's go to the food aisle in that

supermarket and think of all the things

that you buy routinely right your

favorite foods or the foods for special

occasions if you start removing from the

aisles those that were introduced by

immigrants

what's left in your Supermarket little

drab little drab right everything from

pasta to hamburgers to Sushi uh to salsa

salsa sriracha sauce that we all love

it's all gone it's all gone it's all

gone and this is not like immigrants

with phds right this is just groups of

immigrants from different places that

create product Innovations um that

benefit all of us the voice of Zeke

Hernandez segment for the takeout from

Chef Jeffs coming your way in just one

moment

in any group there's going to be some

criminals but actually when you look at

the data the big surprise is that the

group with the lowest rate of

criminality in the US is undocumented

[Music]

immigrants welcome back to the takeout

welcome back to Chef jeffson Our Guest

Zeke Hernandez Zeke

talk to me about crime and immigrants uh

documented or undocumented because that

is the

leading Fear Factor around this debate

yeah yeah I think that um it's it's one

it's one of the Holy Trinity of main

concerns right crime is is one of them

look this is political season you're

100% likely to see an out on TV that

shows the story of an undocumented

immigrant an illegal immigrant

who came here and raped someone or

murdered someone you're 100% likely to

see that and then that gets generalized

into these immigrants are um destroying

our communities and undermining our

safety now that anecdote sure it

happened right like like people in any

group there's going to be some criminals

but actually when you look at the data

the big surprise is that the group with

the lowest rate of criminality in the US

is undocumented immigrants right a

native is twice as likely than an

imigrant more excuse me more than twice

as likely to commit a violent crime four

times as likely to commit a property

crime and nearly three times as likely

to commit a drug crime okay so

undocumented immigrants actually commit

the fewest crimes this is also true uh

for legal immigrants and and nobody

disputes this data no look of all of all

the hot button topics right for some of

them the evidence can be a little mixed

or you have to interpret it carefully

this one is unambiguous when you read

all the comp comp studies it's like

Groundhog Day right it's just the same

conclusion no statisticians or social

scientists or economists who look at

this disagree about this particular fact

no look the debate is is the debate

isn't how much crime immigrants commit

it's how little they commit it's how how

far below how how um how much less than

natives they do that's really what the

statistical debates are about so it just

it just does not happen but I understand

that because it doesn't happen to the

magnitude that our Fear Factor leads us

to believe no if any thing it's the

other way around you want your community

to be safer immigrants are likely to

make it safer right in fact the sad the

sad backstory to that is that the

children of immigrants when they

interact with natives become more prone

to Crime so if anything it's immigrant

children that need to be protected from

Naes from natives yeah so it's the

opposite of what the popular notion is

charges public charges and immigration

yeah okay so that's another of the Holy

Trinity right the second of the Holy

Trinity um look and this one I I I want

to be compassionate in addressing this

in that I I understand in fact my notion

when I moved to the US on a student visa

I um you know I hate to admit this but I

sort of look down on immigrants that

were perhaps not here legally or or that

were not on a student visa not as right

sophisticated as me and I thought oh

they must be public charges but I was

like very proud of like I'm not going to

take from the system um but you know

this is where evidence is important and

it turns out that the headline is that

the average immigrant in the United

States contributes to taxes to the tune

of

$260,000 positive in Net Present Value

terms okay that's accounting for them

and their descendants so that's a wildly

positive contribution to our public

coffers there is a Nuance here though

and this is something that we don't talk

about enough that there are short-term

costs locally of welcoming newcomers so

even though this is expressed with a lot

of cynicism some of what the mayor of

New York or Denver or the the governors

of Texas and Florida are saying that hey

their their states or localities are

bearing a disproportionate share of the

cost of welcoming newcomers in terms the

mayors of Denver Chicago and New York

have said exactly that yeah in terms of

housing Democratic Mayors yeah educating

the the biggest one actually is

educating the children of immigrants cuz

immigrants have more children than

natives that's the biggest cost so that

is true so first generation immigrants

have a small small about $1,600 small

negative uh cost uh uh at the local at

the state level when they arrive but

their children and grandchildren uh

contribute more than double what the

cost is right so in the long run uh

States get a return on that investment

right if you think of like welcoming new

people as an investment a fiscal

investment it just takes time right

right so the debate we need to be having

very legitimately so is what can the

federal government do to offset local

costs in the short run and to make sure

they're more evenly distributed right

but but no doubt about it that in the

long run fiscally speaking we're way

better off let's take two popular

programs um Social Security and Medicare

very popular programs the latest report

from people running these are the people

running these programs is that in less

than a decade they're going to they're

going to run out of money take in

they're going to pay out more than they

take in exactly right so one way to

alleviate that is

to to bring in more taxpayers right and

we're not getting them through birth

rates because we have now below

replacement birth rates so the only

solution to get more

taxpayers is to welcome

immigrants address something I hear

frequently from those on the right which

is their First Act Coming to America was

a

crime they entered illegally what part

of illegal do you not understand that's

a phraseology you hear evaluate that

based on the history and the

data well so this is where we could get

very technical and it could become super

boring because immigration law is

notoriously a

snoozefest um I think if you cross

through a Port of Entry if you come

through a port of entry and you don't

have the right Visa or you don't have a

Visa at all uh which is what's happening

to a big percentage uh right now of

Venezuelans and others who are

coming and and you um and the and the

border patrol allows you in gives you

permission to stay while your case is

adjudicated you are not here illegally

right right so you are not an illegal

immigrant you're here waiting for your

case to be adjudicated right okay and

that's about a third of all Crossings

right now if you cross in between a port

of entry and you you know you you you

come in right and nobody knows and you

don't get captured then you are here

illegally you're here without

authorization but if you cross in

between a port of entry and you get

captured and you're authorized to remain

while your case is adjudicated you're

not here illegally so those are the

technicalities right but I want to

emphasize again that um we're too

obsessed with how people come in and not

what they do once they're here because

the question is you know do we want to

send these people back or not and if

they're bringing us benefits that are

good for us then it's a different

conversation than if they're not I I

think that that's more than the legal

technicalities we have to start with are

we better off with these people the

answer is an Ambiguously yes

unambiguously yes yes I mean I know

that's controversial I know some people

listening to me will say wait but they

broke the law and I agree and I agree

that it's not good to break the law so

I'm not advocating for illegal

immigration I'm not advocating for for

uh people that that commit crimes right

but we can't say that because they

committed that crime they're therefore

more likely to commit murder or rape no

we already know it's the opposite um the

other thing is I think we have to be

honest with ourselves if the reason

these people are able to stay did you

know the average undocumented immigrant

has been here for over a decade I did

know that yes okay and and a quarter of

them for more than decades most of them

have jobs pay taxes have children and so

um they're doing all the things that we

would want them to do it's unrealistic

at this point to send 13 million people

back so we just have to face reality and

solve that issue the voice of Zeke

Hernandez our special guest our thanks

to Chef Jeffs stay tuned for your

takeout out out take AAL that's coming

your way

next I'm a huge bobi fan I was 7 years

old I heard Slippery When Wet on the

radio fell in love

[Music]

welcome to your takeout out take a

special where we lighten it up just a

little bit zek herandez our special

guest his book The Truth About

immigration subtitle why successful

society's welcome newcomers Zeke we have

three questions we ask everyone on this

show okay take them with whichever order

you prefer take as much time as you need

uh most influential book in your life

and why all-time favorite movie and if

you're going to thoroughly enjoy some

music on a long flight or a long drive

what artist or genre is that most likely

to be

okay uh so I I'll go I'll take him in

reverse order I'm a huge Bon joobi fan I

was 7 years old I heard Slippery When

Wet on the radio fell in love and you

know bonji actually this year 40 years

uh so yeah bun Joi is is usually my

go-to uh favorite

movie I'll kind of reveal my My

Generation here I you know Forest Gump I

go back to Forest Gump a lot it's just a

movie that like moves me makes me laugh

I come back to that one a lot uh love

that show most influential

book um look I could I could I could lie

here here but I'm going to I'm going to

say what what the one that really is so

so I'm a Christian uh I'm religious uh

I'm a member of the Church of Jesus

Christ of latterday saints um The Book

of Mormon is uh the book that has

changed me the most it has helped me

come closest to Christ um and and has

helped me along with the Bible

understand my duties as a chrisan and

and the love that God has for us the

most so I I have to say honestly that's

the one that has changed me the most

excellent answers all in the last minute

or so we have do you despair in your

heart about the tenor of the immigration

debate

currently yeah I mean yeah despair is a

good word

um but I despair in part because this is

so damaging to immigrants but actually

even more so because this is so damaging

to us and to our own self-interest when

you look at the evidence it's so clear

that this doesn't have to be partis in

this doesn't have to be scary if you

look at the cover of my book it's

colorful and positive because the

evidence tells us that look there is a

both a conservative and a liberal case

for immigration that are very aligned

and so it hurts me that we don't see

that we hurt ourselves that's that's why

I Despair and other countries right now

are trying to take advantage of our

constricted orientation to immigration

are they not absolutely I mean Canada is

every single day Canada explicitly has

policies targeting immigrants saying hey

you're having trouble with the US system

come here and they're succeeding right

my colleague BR Glennon and and um uh

and Ronnie Ronnie Lee wrote a paper

showing that the US has poached a ton of

high-tech entrepreneurs from the US just

because of thefunction of our policy

Canada but it's also happening with

International students I'm an educator I

work at a university increasingly

foreign students the world's best and

brightest are telling us they don't want

to come study in America

because the political uncertainty is so

high that they're not sure if they're

going to be able to stay so they'd

rather go to Germany the UK Canada

Australia uh now I'm not one to think in

zero some terms I don't think we need

all the world's best and brightest but

we're certainly shooting ourselves in

the foot when the best and brightest are

telling us that Zeke Hernandez our

special guest it's been a pleasure thank

you sir thank you it's been an honor

we'll see you next week folks

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