EXCLUSIVE: Sit-down with Former President Jacob Zuma

Summary

In an exclusive interview, former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses the political landscape following the 2024 general elections. He addresses his role in establishing a new political party, the MK, amidst claims of the ANC's deviation from its original vision. Zuma vehemently denies accusations of vengeance and emphasizes his commitment to the liberation and advancement of black South Africans. He also touches on the challenges he faced with the judiciary and his enduring anger over perceived injustices, while dismissing notions of state capture and the influence of his daughter on his political decisions.

Takeaways

• 😀 Former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses his role in the 2024 general elections and the launch of the MK political party.
• 🏛️ Zuma emphasizes his deep-rooted commitment to politics due to his involvement in the struggle for black liberation in South Africa.
• 🎯 He claims that the ANC has strayed from its original vision and that he is fighting to correct the course of the party and the country.
• 👥 Zuma criticizes the current leadership of the ANC, accusing them of not listening to the party and making decisions that are detrimental to the organization.
• 🤔 He hints at serious issues and conflicts within the ANC that he may reveal in a future book but does not elaborate in detail during the interview.
• 🚫 Zuma vehemently denies that his actions are driven by vengeance or personal animosity towards the current ANC leadership.
• 📉 The interview touches on the dismal election results for the ANC and the potential implications for the country's political landscape.
• 📊 Zuma disputes the election results, suggesting there were irregularities and that the IEC (Independent Electoral Commission) may have mishandled the vote count.
• 🤝 He addresses the possibility of coalitions and government formation, stating that all parties are in discussion but he has not been directly involved in such talks.
• 📖 Zuma expresses his anger over his legal battles, particularly his contempt of court case, and asserts that the judiciary was wrong in their handling of his case.
• 👨‍👧‍👦 Finally, he dismisses claims that his daughter is influencing his political actions, asserting his independence and long history in politics.

Q & A

What is the main reason former President Jacob Zuma started a new political party?

Former President Jacob Zuma started a new political party due to his belief that the ANC had derailed from its original vision and was no longer listening to its members or the needs of the people. He felt the need to correct the direction the ANC was taking.

How does Zuma describe his motivation for entering politics?

Zuma describes his motivation for entering politics as a genuine desire to liberate black people and fight for their freedom, which he says is in his blood and not driven by a desire for money or power.

What does Zuma believe is the current state of the ANC?

Zuma believes that the ANC has strayed from its original mission and that the current leadership is not listening to the party or the people. He suggests that the ANC has become something else that needs to be corrected.

How does Zuma respond to accusations of him being a 'disruptor' in the 2024 general elections?

Zuma disagrees with the label of being a 'disruptor'. He asserts that he did not disrupt the elections but rather established a political party to contest against the ANC, which he believes had strayed from its principles.

What was Zuma's reaction to the election results showing his party, MK, gaining significant votes?

Zuma seems to have expected the significant number of votes for his party, MK, as he mentions that he would not have tried to launch the party if he knew it was not going to work. He believes the results reflect the people's dissatisfaction with the ANC.

What does Zuma say about his relationship with the current ANC leadership?

Zuma indicates a strained relationship with the current ANC leadership, stating that they are not listening to the party or the people and that they have made decisions that have taken the ANC away from its intended path.

What does Zuma believe the role of his new party, MK, should be in South African politics?

Zuma believes that the role of his new party, MK, should be to correct the direction of the ANC and to ensure that the policies decided by the people of South Africa are implemented, not just by the ANC.

How does Zuma view the concept of 'state capture' in relation to his term in office?

Zuma dismisses the concept of 'state capture' during his term in office, arguing that if the three arms of government (Parliament, executive, and Judiciary) were captured, they would not be able to function and should handle the case themselves.

What is Zuma's stance on the possibility of a coalition government with the ANC?

Zuma does not explicitly state his stance on a coalition government with the ANC in the interview. However, he implies that he is open to discussions with other parties to correct the situation in South Africa.

How does Zuma respond to claims that his daughter is influencing his political actions?

Zuma strongly denies that his daughter is influencing his political actions, stating that he has been in politics long before she was involved and that it is 'shameful' for people to suggest otherwise.

Outlines

00:00

🗳️ Political Disruption and New Beginnings

Former South African President Jacob Zuma discusses the impact of his newly launched political party on the 2024 general elections. He refutes claims of causing disruption, instead framing his actions as a strategic political move. Zuma emphasizes his deep-rooted commitment to politics due to his history as a freedom fighter and his desire to liberate black people in South Africa. He also hints at future revelations in a book he plans to write, detailing the reasons behind his establishment of a new political party and his departure from the ANC.

05:00

🛡️ From Freedom Fighter to Political Disillusionment

The conversation delves into Zuma's evolution from a soldier in the MK, the military wing of the ANC, to a disillusioned leader who feels the party has strayed from its original vision. He explains his decision to leave the ANC and the circumstances leading up to it, including his removal from office in 2018. Zuma criticizes the current ANC leadership for not adhering to the principles of the National Democratic Revolution and for ignoring the voices of the people and the party's veterans.

10:01

🚫 The Break from ANC and the MK Party's Formation

Zuma details his decision to form a new political party, the MK party, as a response to the ANC's direction under its current leadership. He speaks about the lack of internal democracy within the ANC, his inability to voice his concerns, and the party's refusal to address the issues he raised. Zuma also addresses the loyalty of some ANC members and the surprise of the MK party's establishment, emphasizing the need for secrecy to ensure its success.

15:03

🔑 The Undercurrents of Political Strategy

In this segment, Zuma discusses the strategic approach he took to establish the MK party, using his 'underground training' to avoid detection and ensure the party's successful launch. He addresses the election results and the public's reaction to his new party, as well as the controversy surrounding certain individuals like Mashaba and the Ramaphosa issue within the ANC. Zuma maintains that his actions are not driven by vengeance but by a genuine desire to correct the course of the ANC and South African politics.

20:03

💔 Disagreements on ANC's Direction and Leadership

Zuma expresses his dissatisfaction with the ANC's current trajectory and the leadership's refusal to acknowledge and correct its mistakes. He criticizes the lack of internal checks and balances within the party and the fear that has paralyzed its leadership. The former president also discusses his own experiences with the judiciary, hinting at perceived injustices and his commitment to fighting for what he believes is right.

25:03

🏛️ The Challenge to South Africa's Democratic Institutions

The discussion turns to the implications of Zuma's actions on South Africa's democratic institutions, including the IEC and the judiciary. He accuses the IEC of mishandling votes and undermining democracy, and he defends his legal challenges as a fight for truth and justice. Zuma also addresses the uncertainty surrounding the formation of the government and the potential impact on the country's stability.

30:08

🤝 The Possibility of Political Alliances and Coalitions

Zuma is asked about the potential for coalitions and alliances, particularly with the ANC, given the current political climate. He denies having received any calls from the ANC and states that he is focused on addressing the issues within the ANC and the country. Zuma also comments on the idea of a government of national unity and the challenges of forming a stable government without a clear majority.

35:08

🚫 Unwavering Stance on Injustice and Future Prospects

In the final part of the interview, Zuma reflects on his experiences with the judicial system and his anger over perceived injustices. He also addresses rumors about his daughter's influence on his political actions and reiterates his commitment to fighting for the freedom and rights of black South Africans. The conversation concludes with a look at the potential outcomes of the current political situation and the challenges ahead for South Africa's democracy.

Keywords

💡Eyewitness News

Eyewitness News is a news program that provides firsthand accounts and reports on current events. In the context of the video, it serves as the platform for the interview with former president Jacob Zuma, discussing his political actions and views.

💡Jacob Zuma

Jacob Zuma is the former president of South Africa who is referenced throughout the script as a central figure in the political landscape. His actions and motivations are the focus of the interview, particularly his decision to launch a new political party.

💡MK

MK stands for Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC) during the apartheid era. In the script, it is mentioned as a political party launched by Zuma, indicating a significant shift from its historical role.

💡ANC

The African National Congress (ANC) is a political party in South Africa that has been in power since the end of apartheid. The script discusses Zuma's relationship with the ANC, his criticisms of its current leadership, and his decision to form a rival party.

💡Disruption

In the context of the video, disruption refers to Zuma's impact on the 2024 general elections by launching a new party, which challenged the ANC's dominance and altered the political landscape.

💡Liberation Movement

The term liberation movement is used to describe political and military efforts to achieve self-determination or independence. Zuma discusses his involvement with the liberation movement as a driving force behind his political career and the establishment of MK.

💡State Capture

State capture refers to the control of government institutions by external entities for personal gain. It is mentioned in the script as a concern raised by critics regarding Zuma's influence and potential implications for South Africa's democracy.

💡Coalition

A coalition in politics is an alliance of political parties to achieve common goals. The script discusses the possibility of coalitions following the elections, with implications for Zuma's MK party and its potential role in government formation.

💡Parliament

Parliament is the legislative body of a government. The script touches on the implications of election results for parliamentary representation, particularly regarding the seating of MPs from various parties, including Zuma's MK.

💡Quorum

A quorum is the minimum number of members required to be present for a meeting or legislative session to be valid. The script mentions the concept of quorum in relation to the potential absence of MK MPs and its impact on parliamentary proceedings.

💡Contempt of Court

Contempt of court refers to the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful towards a court of law. Zuma discusses his own experience with contempt charges, highlighting his conflict with the judicial system.

Highlights

Former President Jacob Zuma discusses his motivations for establishing a new political party, emphasizing his deep-rooted commitment to the liberation and betterment of black South Africans.

Zuma refutes claims of being a 'disruptor' in the 2024 general elections, stating he merely provided an alternative political party to contest against the ANC.

He shares his political journey, from fighting for freedom to becoming a politician, highlighting his genuine desire to liberate black people and not pursuing politics for personal gain.

Zuma explains the historical context and the evolution of his political beliefs, including the influence of the British in shaping his early political engagement.

The former president outlines his reasons for leaving the ANC, citing a departure from the original vision of the National Democratic Revolution and a lack of responsiveness from the current leadership.

Zuma criticizes the current ANC leadership for making decisions that divert from the party's foundational principles and for not addressing serious issues he raised within the party.

He discusses his experience of being removed from office as the head of state, suggesting it was due to his efforts to steer the ANC back to its original path.

Zuma addresses the controversy surrounding the establishment of the MK party, emphasizing the need for secrecy and strategic planning to ensure its success.

The former president denies allegations of vengeance against the ANC, stating his actions are driven by a desire to correct the country's course and not personal animosity.

Zuma expresses his anger and disappointment over the handling of his legal battles, particularly his contempt of court charges and subsequent sentencing.

He comments on the current political climate, including the uncertainty of the 2024 elections and the potential implications for South Africa's governance.

Zuma discusses the possibility of coalitions and his stance on engaging with the ANC, emphasizing that he is open to dialogue but has conditions.

The former president addresses accusations of state capture during his term, questioning the validity of the term and the logic behind the accusations.

Zuma responds to rumors about his daughter's influence on his political decisions, asserting his independence and experience in making political choices.

He outlines the conditions under which he would consider working with the ANC, rejecting the idea of preconditions in negotiations and emphasizing the need for open dialogue.

Zuma concludes the interview with a reflection on his political journey and a reaffirmation of his commitment to the principles that have guided his actions.

Transcripts

hello welcome to an eyewitness news

special I'm coming to you from Ganda you

know who lives in Ganda former president

Jacob Zuma he is I think the leader of

the story of the elections the great

disruption of the

2024 general elections We join him now

from his home in Ganda former president

thank you so much for making time to

chat to us welcome to eyewitness news

thank you you are the great disruptor

people might make an argument that Paul

suggested you do as well as you did many

of us went ah it's impossible cope did

well e that sustained its arrival but I

don't think people saw over 2 million

votes the mk's launch has been quite

spectacular I want to understand how

does one even go about it I was the Ino

when you launched the MK where you

announced that you can no longer vote

for the NC but I did not think it would

result in sitting at the I and watching

the numbers telling the way that they

did how do you even go about it how do

you even start to try and launch

something against the so-called Mighty

ANC I did not disrupt I just want to

disagree there oh disruption but okay I

didn't disrupt I just established a

political party to

contest to other parties uh uh and I had

very serious reasons why I did

so firstly I think it is important to

take into account that I am a

politician not just a politicians by

loving it or being whatever I am a

politician I think politics I plan

politics strategy tactics and everything

so it's not a small

matter uh and I would not have tried it

if I knew it was not going to

work I did so because I knew it well for

a variety of reasons that one day when I

write my book I would tell a full story

and what happened

Etc firstly I'm a free I come from the

freedom fighting freedom fighting kind

of

grouping I fought for my freedom in this

country for freedom of black

people and in the process of all of that

in fact I could even go back but if you

know the last battle of black and white

ended here at

inan the last one the bombata Rebellion

which

changed the the thinking of how do we

fight for our struggle

that's what led to the establishment of

politics in in South Africa from the

black people in

particular and and and and and and the

stories about that war were told here by

older people how ruthless the British

were in the camps that were putting

people and what they were doing to them

that is where my my what you call it

uh the

first first things that put me into

politics so getting into politics was

not just because I love politics it was

because of what had happened to a black

person in this country that made me to

join the struggle at my young age to

fight for The Liberation or freedom of

black people it is in my blood it is in

my vein it is in my my

marrow is not a joke I'm not doing it

because I want to make money I don't

want to do it because I just want to do

good it is a very genuine genuine desire

to liberate a black

person and that will take you back to

slavery that I think about what has been

done to black people the most

devastating

Behavior towards them and therefore to

me if I go to the struggle is not

because I love it it's because I want to

change the lives of people so it is a

serious

matter and that led me to know politics

deeper because they politicians are just

politicians or in for a

career for careers

others ER

and politics is a serious serious thing

it comes from very

far now when I took the decision that

I'm ready to lose my life for the

freedom of our black people was not a

joke that's why I joined in

1961 I mean not 61 after 1961 1962 okay

as a Liberation movement or the um the

kind of different fight than

nonviolent and I became a soldier of

MK Help Me Marry That Vision right with

the MK as you have it now as a political

party help me understand how you've

evolved from that person who was under

the NC who understood why he needed to

fight for a particular Vision to who you

are today and what it is that you're

fighting for with the MK party at that

time as you know and I've explained this

at some point there was African National

Congress thec was the only party that

was established in

1912 as a response to the white

separation and apate and and kalapa and

whatever you call it

because the organization was growing and

growing and growing when the National

Party government came into power they

then said they're not going to have a

soft cabar that was being done by the

British they brought

upate you are a CA a CA to your corner

they said so

themselves and

that in

itself led to the situation where they

came to a point to ban an illegal

organization African National Congress

was fighting nonviolent

struggle and that's what made us to say

we cannot stand for this and therefore a

a a an alternative kind of an

organization it was clear they want

wanted to fight and thec and The

Liberation movement at the time said let

us do it and there was then an

establishment well thought out

of as a military wing of the struggl in

sou yes military wing and therefore we

we we taking arms we went to train we

joined took a vow we took an Oaths and

everything we're ready to fight and die

and many did

so that then led to a long prolonged

struggle that came to a point

where the

particularly the

whites

particularly ER put under pressure by

the Western countries that they must

agree to negotiate and stop the fight

and find a way to sit together that's

what led it to what to call people call

pessa

yes that was now to say stop the war

find a way to live together that's what

we

did with process going

forward was there a lot of details

there then we reached a point where the

party that was established to liberate

people began to move off the

rail and the leaders began to be the

ones who are in charge who are doing

everything they love and therefore the

process to finalize our our freedom was

lost and the leaders were not listening

even if you wanted to listen to my

organization which had spent more than

60 years in it it became difficult it

became very

funny and

you could not correct

it when I write my book I will explain

the details not now because we've been

waiting for this book for so long no

it's coming don't worry but let's speak

come when you an old

lady but let's speak about that so you

felt that the leadership derailed away

from the vision of what the national

Democratic Revolution is that where the

ANC got lost when did you realize that

the leadership of the ANC has derailed

from the vision after you were done

quite a while while you were still

president as soon as no no no no no no

when I was a president it was not it has

not delay it was

notate so after 2017 I was removed

before I finish my my my my

terms speciic specifically because I was

moving to the direction that ANC was

established for I was removed as head of

state or as NC president as a head of

state so that's 2018

and I think you've had this conversation

with zanda from Newsroom about you being

removed about former president T Bei I

want to come back to the part where you

say it was derailed and you're tempted

to speak to the leadership of the ANC

and you ignored is that it

absolutely we I was it ended up with me

even moving away from attending the

meetings where I was a uh in terms of

our

agreement an ex official an ex official

because I realized that if I stay there

all the wrong things that were happening

I will also be blamed why why were you

there because I did not want to say to

people do this and do this and become

like a Hardy to them so I gave them an

opportunity but they continued until the

point where it became impossible I went

to the conference not as a as a

former president of thec I went there as

a member of my own Branch from here

because I wanted to argue things I was

prevented I could not do

so and I had no alternative I took a

decision this organization is no longer

the organization I know that's why I

call it

Raposa andc we'll get to the Raposa

Factor so it was when you left Naz 2.0

in 2022 that you knew you needed to

start a different organization outside

of the no no no not at that time when I

was I was was was I was up there the

last Conference of thec the very last

The Naz The Naz 2.0 second the second in

2022 yes the second Naz yeah so when you

left there were you a branch I remember

you were in the crowd with the K at and

delegates as a branch member so it was

that conference when you walked out and

you said mm I need to do something about

the NC from outside when no no no not

not when I was there much as many things

were going wrong but I was ready to

debate and I was not given a chance to

debate in the

plary and then I was directed that I

must debate whatever I wanted to debate

in the

commission I went there reluctant

because I thought this was not right but

I debated my issues there those issues

when the uh the the the reports were

given nothing was mentioned of serious

issues that I had raised in fact the ANC

did something that it has never done

since

1912 to say in a

conference we are postponing the

conference we'll come next time next

conference to finish off which deprived

me of the debate that I had made in the

commission which I wanted it to be

discussed in the

conference and that thing that they will

be there was never any conference

thereafter what was there called the

conference were different meetings held

at the same time in different places the

national executive committee and the

provinces that is not a conference and

even then were not allowed even to

debate then and it was clear to me that

this ANC is indeed something else that's

when I took a

decision to say this was this

organization firstly as a result of his

behavior the people were telling us

they're not going to vote for us as long

as we have gotos a president so it was

an open thing now I could not allow that

that's why I took a decision that I'm

not going to vote for them but I'm not

going to leave politics and I must find

a way how to stop thec from the

direction it is taking but there were

people within thec who incredibly loyal

to you that were thrown off at the

announcement of the MK party I'm

thinking

about people had been loudly boldly te

Jacob Zuma for years who was seemingly

taken by surprise did you take those

people into your confidence when you

were plotting or planning the idea of

the MK party doing what is called

underground underground don't just tell

a story I I chose people I was going to

deal with that I worked with was I I

know if I had told people that thing

would not have worked I went

underground applied my tactics apped my

underground training in order to get

where I am and asash was already kicked

out of the NC he was already left out in

the court I mean when I look at the

election results Act was dismal so to

speak why wasn't he taken along the ride

who I don't want to to talk about that

one let me not answer that one because I

don't want to talk about

mahash okay I'm going to move on from

him no no no but but maybe let me be

fair to you sure I did

inform I did not

once I did just that I was not going any

further and you still went on to

establish act well you were at a big

Orlando Stadium event he was at a church

holding a Manifesto and I actually asked

him about it I was like why would you

hold competing or events when you are

meant to be aligned and I don't know if

I got a satisfactory answer I want to

speak now to you about the ramapa issue

this ramapa NC of rapasa that you speak

about it is a message that's clearly

caught people's attention it's worked we

see the election

results what has he

done so bad in your eyes that you can't

let up that you can't let go that it is

consistent that what is wrong with the

ANC has to be this man at the helm at

the moment he misled the ANC he has

never led the ANC properly I don't don't

want to go further than that and that's

why I call it the

Raposa

andc I don't want to deal with details

of rapos that's not my intention it's

very hard when you say oh at least for

now it's very hard when you do that

because what we hear as the public is

there's an issue with the agency and

it's just man at the helm when you ask

for the an understanding you don't want

to delve deeply in into it you don't

want to take us into full confidence

about what has gone wrong I'm not going

to say to you you chose him as your

Deputy you've said in the public before

but they brought him to you during the

mangun conference to make him your

number two um I still don't know if

saying to me his misled us is sufficient

I still feel like I'm missing something

because when I look at you it feels like

you're going to Great length starting

another party and asking for people to

vote for that to make sure they bring a

party you serve for well over 60 years

under that sounds like V Vengeance

Vengeance yeah it's more than just the

surface level oh you we dislike you it

feels deeper than that so that's why I

keep asking for a little bit more around

what the issue is around the current ANC

president no I've said I've said to you

my good sister the leadership of thec

was no longer listening to itself

listening to his party rather to party

and and and and making a lot of

decisions that were taking the ANC away

from where we need to

be now one of the issues I raised why I

call it the problem was with the

leadership was leaders historically in

the a if the leader was doing something

wrong other leaders will deal with the

matter and correct it you had leaders

that were no longer correcting anything

and there are reasons they feared this

man on a number of issues these are the

matters I don't want to deal with it at

this stage do you know there was a time

where they said the same thing exact

same thing about you sorry do you know

there was a time they said the exact

same thing about you in the leadup to

2017 they would say oh we can't current

correct them internally ah the NEC is

paralyzed because they fear that

President they used to say the exact

same thing about you when you're a

leader well that is their own business

what I did when I was in charge I

changed things things in this country

and they written down I came with

everything and some people hated that

they did not want me to change this

country that was a hatred if at all they

hated me I was never I have never

terrorize anyone and the most

sweet I don't know Absolutely I'll make

up my mind at the end of this interview

um you you you you speak about um there

something I've not lost my trail of

thought you you lost me there by telling

me you're sweet when no actually I'm

going somewhere um I'm just sweet no no

let me I I let's see this bit to show

that there's something wrong with the

ANC where does it stop because South

Africans also watch this war between

different kinds of NC and worry that it

will take the country down with it what

do you say to the Africans who say geez

how long will these former States

the these leaders fight at what cost

will you continue in a fight to prove

your point that there's something wrong

with the ANC no no no I've never fought

anybody in the ANC never you fighting

grandmaa now even through the ballots as

I'm saying I'm a very sweet person if I

was fighting him I wouldn't be I

wouldn't be sweet he wouldn't be where

he is if I was I'm very sweet and I've

never fought I'm AOS I've I've

criticized roposa where he's going wrong

for an example like when he said thec

was number one corrupt

organization I wrote a response I

remember that to say no I was not

fighting him I was just telling him you

are wrong that's not that's not the way

I also can tell you something you don't

know maybe just one piece was we looking

forward yes I

want when when when a campaign by thec

which is included him were saying I must

resign from the ANC before I finished

the what call before 2017 yes I realized

that this is going to make the ANC fight

within itself on my own I asked to see

him to discuss that matter with his

secretary Kul mahash and I met with them

in Cape Town and I said I've taken my

decision to resign as a as a as a

president of thec because I don't want

thec to fight because of me so I've

taken a decision to resign I then

explain how I was going to do it and

what will I do and every other thing and

I said I'm trying to avoid the fight

within

thec and I said report it to the

national executive committee and this is

what I think we should do I'm ready to

go when when I'm leaving this is what I

want to do I gave him the period and the

reasons why he never came back to M to

report what was the response of the

leadership but this is now a decision to

resign from head of state after 2017 yes

okay and that and and and he will tell

you because he did not come back to me

until we had a meeting with the

officials

later and I said to him

on that

day I said never meet me never asked to

see me I said it in a meeting of the

official top

six because you have disappointed you

are not a leader I told him is not a

leader don't respect him because I gave

him a serious discussion to make the

organization not fight and it

disappeared he never came back can I ask

you reported and I said

sorry because for me you have proved

that you are not the leader can I ask

you when this actually happened because

you stepped down as Head of State in

February of

2018 he became NC president December

2017 so this is a conversation and

deliberations between those two windows

do you remember when it was exactly no

no no I when I said that he was the

president already I had been out for for

for a while the that meeting itself not

that was called by him I went to brief

my leaders in the

province what had

happened they then went to the national

executive committee because they were

hearing this for the first time as you

are hearing it for the first time I'm a

little bit confused by the timeline

that's why I'm a little looking at you

like this is no I I was no longer there

I was sitting here I just felt it needed

I needed it to go and Bre the lead to

inform them that did try to resign

before and he took it nowhere who you

told you told them that you had told I

told I told them what I'm telling you

yes yeah I told them and I said this has

this has been my problem with them I

needed them to know because they mustn't

see me being having a different Behavior

they must know exactly and they then

went to raise the

matter and then that's what led to the

meeting of the working comit where I

told him I don't trust him I don't think

he's a serious leader I told him there

it was necessary for me to do so I'm

just explaining to you so that you

shouldn't say I'm just talking there are

things that I discussed with him

properly politically and

otherwise I want to go back to the

question I was trying to ask you now in

you say you're not fighting but actually

when you start a political party to take

down the governing party that is a fight

whichever way you want to describe it

what is it no no no you can't say all

these parties

that they fighting they not you're

competing you're in a space where you're

you're in competition compet comp

competing and fighting they are two

different

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things depends on the day okay let's put

it this way you start an organization to

compete with the governing party compete

ah it must be something organization in

order to correct this country in my

speech are you correcting the country

correcting in this in the speeches that

I've made I've said I want to rescue

thec can't be fighting it so in your bit

to rescue thec the question some of us

as a country have

is will we pay the price of you

attempting to rescue the ANC at all you

will actually be happy as you can see

how happy South Africans are today with

Condes you be happy we're not happy

we're in limbo we don't have an outright

party that's won the elections none of

those parties won the elections there's

no outright winner we don't know how

governments are going to be formed we

don't know whether or not we should be

scared I don't believe the markets must

dictates how we are as a country I

believe a political party that cares

about our well-being matters the most

only only if they had

counted the votes of MK there would be

no problem would we have a party that

cares about us though if that was the

case if the two-thirds majority that the

MK has been selling us was actually the

truth would we be well taken care of as

a country I don't know that tell you

will feel if by now you'll be feeling

that we are now there I don't know

because I also don't agree and I'm a

little bit confused about your policies

but I'll talk to you about that in two

seconds no you shouldn't if if you're

are an African you shouldn't I am an

African you post your left but your

policies are right so a little bit

confused your policies AR they're not

Progressive they're

Progressive not all of them L my we are

talking

about free education is that not

Progressive we're talking about a when

black children can't study when there's

enough money you can't tell me that if

if we say we bring we talking about

sending pregnant girls to Robin Island

we're talking about the things that

you've spoken about not are progressive

we speaking about queer rights we

speaking about listen listen listen

listen I'm not sending them to Robin

Island to prison to that they must have

F education so that they are educated

they can come and be useful in this

country talk saying you can't have

little kids of 15 having children all

over this country and you think no but

you also can't punish them I'm not

saying it's freedom but you also can't

punish them in fact those children been

raped that's actually what it is I'm not

punishing them I'm forcing them to study

and be the doctors and everything and

come back and save this country but

that's also enough you must have time to

debate this with me have let's have a

day let's have a day cuz we can take

each other on there I firmly believe

that the MK party postures left but

isn't left um we'll talk about another

day because then we must add the issue

of ethn

nationalism conversation I want to help

you because you'll realize we are

builing in South Africa all your black

kids are drinking from morning to today

we don't want that for them we don't

want them for we don't want it for them

we don't want our children hooked on

subst so we are the only party that has

talked about it no you're not cuz I've

read so many manifestors them and I say

no you're not but I want to move away

from that so so you so so you say to me

that

um there would there would be some

stability if the MK party was in but I'm

saying to you sou Africans feel that

this issue that you have with the

NC is one that could actually still cost

the country that we are torn between

different aspects factions permutations

of the ANC that are fighting each other

competing correcting whichever where you

want to put it but you have two

different views from the NC that are

clashing at the expense of the country

which are these views one that is

carried by you via the MK party now I'm

not in thec in that way I I with my

membership there I said so I am a leader

of to correct the wrongs and partly thec

under the leadership we have now they

are the ones who need to be

corrected I'm I'm I'm you know that in

the in the the in the policy of the ANC

we

say we've got a freedom chart yes whichc

has forgotten about nothing's been done

which will change the lives of the

people in this country and this is what

we're going to do to carry out the

correct policies that were decided by

the people of South Africa not just by

the ANC so the view that you testing

institutions of institutions of

democracy to prove a point is unfair or

is it fair which one democracy Now The

View that you're testing the tenants

that are upholding our democracy to

prove a point is that accurate this is

now obviously looking at the court

looking at the IEC is that a correct

assumption that look here's a person

who's testing the very might of these

institutions and their ability to do

their job the

IEC the IEC took our votes gave them to

other party that's not democracy that's

not

democracy the

I said there was a crash

when when there was no crash when they

were taking our vote we've got evidence

that's why I've charged them so you

you've gone the legal democracy no

you've gone the legal Ro we say don't

don't stand saying you are now giving

the numbers because we are complaining

we are a long list of parties they don't

listen that's not

democracy I disagree with you that's not

democracy it's not democracy no what you

are doing is democracy absolutely there

are around 50 I want the truth to be

told who actually won we don't know

right

now that's that's a reality we are

dealing with from contres we want the

truth we want people to deal with things

properly we want people to respect other

people you're not satisfied with the 2

million odd votes you believe you you

are owed more absolutely not that I

believe I know I've I told them I've got

facts and I've I've I've got facts as a

result your 58 MPS are they going to

parliament are they not going how long

will they not go if they're not going no

if there is a law that says if there is

no uh what is it

called which one I don't know what

you're referring to you tell me if

there's a law that is called what are we

speaking about the election of a

president the speaker I speak about the

Declaration of the elections yes which

one are we going to done when when

declaration when there is a huge number

that is not in

Parliament or the election of President

yes it can be done can 130 MPS need to

be in that house there will be 130

without your 58 no no no

no I'm willing to take a bit on that one

with you if there are chairs that are

empty is not is not there's no quum are

you going to take other MPS from other

parties and ask them not to attend we

are all compl laining it's not only me

but the parties that are complaining

alongside you are parties that that are

4,000 votes act that's got how many

13,000 the parties that are complaining

are not in Parliament they don't have

seats our membership if MK is not there

there's no C in in Parliament I beg to

differ but let's wait and see let's wait

and see if I'm right what happens I've

been in Parliament my

de I haven't been but I feel like I'm

right I've been there before if I'm

right what do you what

and if I'm right I'll give you a

cow oh my go I want my cow cuz I know

you please deliver a car to the east of

Johannesburg you want me a cow um I

don't know where I would put it in find

Space in My Father's yeah don't you

worry but you ow me a cow um where does

it end for you this issue no before I

actually get there let's speak a little

bit about uh jablan kumalo yes there's a

court matter but he's actually on your

parliamentary list so as it is it hasn't

been altered we are taking him out you

missed the deadline to alter it no no we

we take him don't worry we can't see he

not our in our in our he is not in our

party we chased him out of our party

there's not democracy that can say

somebody can

come he's not a

member you know how Parliament works as

you said you've been in Parliament I

haven't you know that you have to resign

and once your name is in you can't be

fired he has to write a resignation

letter and remove himself I saw the list

today of coite

democracy because you can't have a man

who's chased out from his party and he

see that by by force because the the

what call democra must do so where do

you to get that from it's not in our

party he was chased away he has a letter

was written at give we were sitting here

when I gave I heard about that meeting

so what happens when he goes to

Parliament and he sits there 57 of your

members are not there our part is not

going to agree there's no Parliament

that's going to force you with a member

who's not your party it can't be he can

go there to show to be it okay so that's

the issue of Jan kumalo you are clear on

that what if he wins the court case he

can't win the court case he can't what

if he does no he can't I told you you

can't

was he's lying he's a

liar um Mr Zuma let's speak a little bit

about other parties like the EFA for

instance why should I discuss other part

I'm going to ask I'm going to speak

about Coalition I'm going to coalitions

to

discuss I'm I feel like I must give up

no let's speak about no I'm not going to

give up actually I've got another one

it's fine I've got another one um let's

speak a little bit about coalitions the

NC looks like it's leading towards a

government of national Unity some people

are speaking about a minority government

I've heard they've attempted to call the

MK party to ask for you to come on board

have you received calls from the ANC

what is your position no I I I'm I'm not

sure I don't want know normally I don't

want to discuss other people the general

is not my

habit I think all

parties are meeting and talking and

talking to one another let us leave it

at that rather than to isolate others

and say one blah I think at the moment

nobody can say I'm making a government

was a majority that's natural is going

to call people to talk in order to have

enough numbers to establish a government

they'll call you maybe if they do

they've been calling me or they have you

been answering their phone calls no not

yet I know they did not necessarily call

me by phone they send people to say they

going to talk

your response is I I'm I'm I'm I'm still

here I'm still dealing with the issues

of not correcting the dealing with the

what to call the counting and everything

that's what but I'm not not saying I'm

not saying I'm not going to talk to

other party whatever happen we be

talking to the party I have been talking

to the parties even even long before I

made an announcement was I knew where I

was going I'm very clear I'm not doing

this for the sake of winning and what

I'm doing this to correct our situation

that is not complete that we as black

people are not

free and I can give you ly of of the

reasons why that's what I'm dealing with

I'm not dealing with wanting to lead now

whatever I'm dealing with the the whole

issue of us not being free I come from

jail without a case

well the judges were angry with me

because I was telling them the truth and

they took me to prison this is for being

contempt of the Constitutional Court

exactly for being in contempt of the

cons their own dis their judge was was

doing that thing we are talking about I

still say to you that one is for being

in contempt of the Constitutional Court

that's how I understood

it you want me to tell you the story no

I don't want you to tell me the story I

want us to move to other things

there is a law in South Africa that says

if you are in a commission or somewhere

you say to whoever is Ching I don't want

to because you're not going to

beti to me what does the law says what

what must that person do consider it

they don't owe you a yes they must

consider it you can't by law if I say I

don't trust you you are going to be

biased with me you can't force yourself

to go the Lord does not say but I want

to I I I what that's I'm telling you

that's made that's where the problem

begins I'm hearing you about when the

problem begins instead of sharing giving

it to somebody else chief justice

Raymond Z exactly and he uses off being

a chief justice to instruct his people

to charge me and to sentence me to two

years it's never such a thing in any

democracy in any situation

so I couldn't be those judges by not

helping him they were themselves doing a

wrong thing are you I'm not coming to

your court if that's a case I fought for

this Freedom they didn't are you angry

about the way that was handled

absolutely do you remain angry

absolutely I will remain angry until I

die because they were

wrong they were totally wrong The Judge

first was wrong they were wrong and I

will never accept it even today they get

can repeat it I will go to jail if if if

their jail is to give is to is to put

people there who have no crime just

because they hated that goes to my

earlier question when I said to you to

what end I asked you if it's Vengeance

earlier on I ask you whether or not some

of the things that you're doing are

because you're angry and it Vengeance So

when you say you'll be angry until you

die talk I ask you is that what's your

driving force because the judges are

there to be

honest to judge people properly if they

don't do it they're not going to be my

friends I want to go back to I'm going

to go back to the issue of Coalition

because that's where we were sand has

written a letter who sand General nyanda

M he says it's an outrageous idea that

the NC would want to talk to the mkp

about coalitions the same yand let me

finish the same Yanda who celebrated

your win back in poan 2007 when you

watched that where a completely

different attitude has been taken

posture to who you are then versus now

what comes to mind nothing serious come

to mind that's not my

worry of of of yand it's not my

worry and then everybody says you got

rid of Zuma because of State capture if

you allow him back in you're opening the

door back to what went wrong during his

term of office what do you say who term

of office there are people who also say

if the NC seeks to work with you because

some in the NC want to work with the MK

party others say if you do that you're

opening the door back for state state

capture to happen we are past that I

don't we know what the state capture

really because in my own language I I

don't understand because if you want to

talk about the state

capture you are talking

about

Parliament executive and

Judiciary if these three were captured

they couldn't study I mean themselves

deal with

themselves does not make sense I said

this even when it was being said the

state capture what does it mean what it

mean those three arms are captured how

can they then it should be them who who

who look after the case what have you

done I mean it's it's Madness in myew

I'm almost done I really am um under

what conditions minus the issue of the

president of the NC cuz they said that's

an non-negotiable would you be willing

to work with the

NC no that one I'm not going to be

answering it because you know very well

but they said it's a no goal it's a

non-negotiable who no goal their

president is a no goal who their

president they president yes is they not

go when it comes to negotiations they're

open to talking about everything except

for calls for their president to go so

what else what other conditions you

can't say you want to negotiate and put

conditions even before we talk that

tells you there's something I don't want

to involve myself in that one you can't

say want to negotiate but not about our

pres what is that you don't want to

negotiate because if you want to

negotiate to say I want to negotiate you

then negotiate if those issues arise in

the process you can then discuss you

can't put a condition you want to

discuss with me but put a not this one

it's never done that way really and then

my Parting Shot um a lot of people speak

about your relationship with your

daughter and some people feel

particularly in the NC NC some people

feel that part of what's happening is

cuz she's egging you on they don't

believe it's you they believe it's your

daughter pushing you in this direction

your response to that what does she know

about about about my politics

can I be pushed my child by my child you

can't you see that there's something

wrong with these people I mean a child

who found me being a I was already in

Exile I've been in politics long time

ago have done a lot of them including

going to prison taking my decisions

somebody one day say it is this child

that is making zum to what it is Shame

Shame

okay thank you for your time so so wait

hold on your parliamentarians they will

not go for the election or the voting of

a president when will they go to

Parliament no if if we do so if if if

there is

no quum that par that Parliament

collapses it collapses they can't go

there with members who are not there

that's not

Parliament remember if they manage to

elect a speaker a deputy and a president

you owe me a carow I'll send you my

address in the Easter end I'll I'll I'll

I I'll push the cow from here through a

what call a road three what is it called

ENT entry the entry that's right on the

road I'm taking to a lady in

Johannesburg oh thank you so much former

president Jacob Z speaking to us there

about a myriad of things a very

difficult person to interview but anyway

um some of his thoughts on some of the

conversations many are having at this

point in time for Eyewitness News my

name is TD Mia