Dharmesh Shah on How HubSpot Designed Its Famed Startup Culture

Summary

In this engaging discussion, Dharmesh Shah, co-founder and CTO of HubSpot, shares insights on company culture, the concept of 'HubSpot Mafia', and the importance of embracing entrepreneurial spirit within a company. Shah emphasizes the intentionality behind HubSpot's culture, which has led to its success as a 'mafia company', fostering an environment where employees are encouraged to innovate and eventually start their ventures. He also discusses the evolution of HubSpot's culture code, the significance of viewing culture as a product, and the critical need for diversity in early-stage hiring. Reflecting on his experiences, Shah advises startups to prioritize culture and diversity from the outset to avoid the challenges of 'culture debt' later on.

Takeaways

• 🎉 Dharmesh is the co-founder and CTO of HubSpot and has significantly contributed to the company's culture and success.
• 📚 Dharmesh published HubSpot's Culture Code, which has been downloaded nearly 4 million times, highlighting the importance of company culture.
• 💡 HubSpot is recognized as a 'mafia company', fostering an ecosystem where former employees go on to found successful companies like Drift and Inside Squared.
• 🤝 Dharmesh believes in the intentional development of a culture that supports entrepreneurialism and is open to employees starting their ventures.
• 🌟 HubSpot's culture has been acknowledged with awards such as being voted the number four best place to work in 2021.
• 👥 Dharmesh does not have direct reports and was tasked with defining HubSpot's culture, an interesting role for an introvert.
• 🔧 He approached defining the culture like an engineering project, starting with a survey to understand what attributes were correlated with successful HubSpotters.
• 📈 The Culture Code started as a 16-slide deck and evolved into a comprehensive 128-slide document, reflecting the company's growth and learnings.
• 💼 Dharmesh advises thinking of culture as a product, with employees as its customers, emphasizing the need for continuous iteration and improvement.
• 📊 Culture should be optimized, not just preserved, and companies should listen to employee feedback to shape their culture, similar to product development.
• 🕊 Dharmesh regrets not focusing on culture and diversity earlier, referring to the concept of 'culture debt' that can be challenging to repay later.

Q & A

Who is Dharmesh Shah and what is his role at HubSpot?

Dharmesh Shah is the co-founder and CTO of HubSpot. He is also known for publishing HubSpot's Culture Code, a document that outlines the company's culture and values.

What is the significance of the HubSpot Culture Code?

The HubSpot Culture Code is a document that Dharmesh Shah created to define and articulate the company's culture. It has been well-received, with almost 4 million downloads, and serves as a guide for the company's operations and decision-making.

What is the concept of a 'mafia company' in the entrepreneurial ecosystem?

A 'mafia company' refers to a company whose early employees go on to start their own successful companies, creating a network or 'mafia' of interconnected businesses. HubSpot is an example of such a company, with several successful startups like Drift and Inside Squared being founded by former HubSpot employees.

How does Dharmesh Shah view the departure of employees to start their own companies?

Dharmesh Shah is supportive of employees leaving to start their own companies. He sees it as a natural outcome of hiring entrepreneurially minded and creative individuals, and HubSpot is intentionally supportive of this, even offering to help with pitch decks and investments.

What is the 'Pajama Principle' as mentioned by Dharmesh Shah?

The 'Pajama Principle' is a concept Dharmesh Shah introduced, suggesting that success is proportional to the degree to which you let people stay in their pajamas, implying the value of flexibility and remote work options in a company culture.

How does HubSpot approach hiring and the importance of diversity?

HubSpot aims to hire entrepreneurially minded and creative individuals who may eventually leave to start their own ventures. Dharmesh acknowledges the importance of diversity and advises startups to be deliberate about it from the early stages to avoid 'culture debt'.

What was Dharmesh Shah's approach to defining HubSpot's culture in the early days?

Dharmesh treated the task of defining culture like an engineering project. He started with a survey to understand what attributes were highly correlated with successful HubSpotters and used this data to create the initial set of core values for the company.

Why did Dharmesh Shah decide to publish the Culture Code internally and later externally?

The Culture Code was initially published internally to help guide the company's operations and decision-making. It was later released externally to share HubSpot's approach to culture, which has been influential and has helped other companies define their own cultures.

What advice does Dharmesh Shah have for founders regarding company culture?

Dharmesh advises founders to think of culture as a product, with employees as the customers. He suggests that founders should work on culture from the early stages, involve employees in defining it, and iterate on it regularly to ensure it continues to serve as a well-functioning operating system.

What is the concept of 'culture debt' and why is it significant?

Culture debt refers to the long-term negative impact of not being mindful of diversity and inclusion from the early stages of a company's formation. It is significant because it is much harder to address later on and can lead to a homogenous organization that struggles to innovate and adapt.

What does Dharmesh Shah believe startups should do to ensure they are hiring for diversity?

Dharmesh suggests that startups should make deliberate efforts to hire for diversity, even if it takes longer due to pipeline challenges. He recommends implementing processes like the Rooney Rule, which requires considering at least one diverse candidate for every hire above a certain level.

Outlines

00:00

👋 Welcoming Dharmesh and Discussing HubSpot's Culture

The speaker warmly welcomes Dharmesh, co-founder and CTO of HubSpot, to the stage. Dharmesh is recognized for his work on HubSpot's culture code, which has been downloaded nearly 4 million times. He is a frequent speaker on topics such as startups, inbound marketing, and company culture. The conversation touches on the concept of 'mafia companies,' where early employees go on to found their own successful companies, a phenomenon that HubSpot has become known for. Companies like Drift and Inside Squared are examples of this. Dharmesh discusses the intentionality behind fostering an entrepreneurial spirit within HubSpot, even if it means employees will eventually leave to start their own ventures. He emphasizes the importance of hiring entrepreneurially minded individuals and supporting them in their journey, even if it means they will one day leave HubSpot.

05:00

📚 The Evolution of HubSpot's Culture Code

Dharmesh recounts the story of how he became the 'keeper of HubSpot's culture' despite being an introvert and not having direct reports. He explains that the initiative to define the company's culture began with a CEO group meeting his co-founder attended, which emphasized the importance of culture from the early stages of a company's growth. Initially, they started with a survey to understand what made successful HubSpot employees. This led to the creation of the 'Culture Code' document, which began as a 16-slide presentation. The document aimed to identify the attributes of successful HubSpotters and became the foundation for the company's core values. Over time, the Culture Code evolved into a 128-slide deck, addressing not just who succeeds at HubSpot but also how to make decisions and trade-offs within the company. Dharmesh highlights the importance of treating culture as a living document that evolves with the company, and the benefits of sharing it openly with employees and potential hires.

10:02

🤔 Reflecting on HubSpot's Growth and Culture

The speaker and Dharmesh discuss the importance of considering culture as a product that needs constant iteration and improvement. Dharmesh suggests that just as one would not neglect a product, culture should also be continuously optimized to serve as a well-functioning operating system for the company. He emphasizes the need to listen to employees' feedback and adapt the company culture accordingly, much like how one would with a product. The conversation also touches on the growing importance of flexibility as a feature in company culture, especially in light of recent global events and the shift towards remote work. Dharmesh shares his insight that employees often value flexibility more than traditional job titles, indicating a shift in what employees are looking for in a company's culture.

15:03

🔄 Addressing the Challenges of Diversity and 'Culture Debt'

Dharmesh reflects on his professional journey, admitting that he would have started working on culture earlier and paid more attention to diversity from the outset if he could go back in time. He discusses the concept of 'culture debt' and how it's more challenging to address than technical debt. Dharmesh explains that while technical debt can be refactored, cultural issues require a deeper and more patient approach. He advises startups to think about diversity early on and to make deliberate efforts to include it in their hiring processes. The speaker and Dharmesh agree that while it may be challenging to achieve diversity, especially in the early stages of a company, it is crucial to at least make the effort and consider it an ongoing priority.

Keywords

💡Dharmeshra

Dharmeshra is the co-founder and CTO of HubSpot, a leading inbound marketing, sales, and customer service platform. In the video, he is highlighted for his role in shaping the company's culture and his contributions to the entrepreneurial ecosystem, particularly through the 'HubSpot Mafia', which refers to the successful companies founded by former HubSpot employees.

💡HubSpot Mafia

The term 'HubSpot Mafia' is used to describe the network of successful companies that have been founded by former employees of HubSpot. This concept is analogous to the 'PayPal Mafia' and signifies the impact of HubSpot's culture in fostering entrepreneurship and innovation among its alumni.

💡Company Culture

Company culture refers to the values, practices, and social interactions within a company. In the video, Dharmeshra discusses the importance of culture in shaping the success of a business, and how HubSpot's culture has been intentionally developed to encourage entrepreneurial spirit and creativity among its employees.

💡Culture Code

The 'Culture Code' is a document published by Dharmeshra that outlines HubSpot's company culture. It has been influential, with nearly 4 million downloads, and serves as a guide for understanding the principles and practices that define the work environment and employee behavior at HubSpot.

💡Entrepreneurial Mindset

An entrepreneurial mindset is characterized by innovation, creativity, and the willingness to take risks. In the video, Dharmeshra mentions that HubSpot intentionally hires individuals with this mindset, understanding that they may eventually leave to start their own ventures, which is seen as a positive contribution to the broader entrepreneurial ecosystem.

💡Inbound Marketing

Inbound marketing is a strategy that focuses on attracting customers through content and interactions that are relevant and helpful. Dharmeshra is a frequent speaker on this topic, and HubSpot is well-known for its expertise in inbound marketing, which is a core part of the company's identity and offerings.

💡Venture World

Venture World refers to the ecosystem of venture capital and startup funding. The term is used in the video when discussing the broader entrepreneurial ecosystem and the impact of 'mafia companies' like HubSpot in fostering new ventures and innovation.

💡Remote Work

Remote work is the concept of employees working from locations outside of a central office. The video discusses how the global pandemic has influenced work culture, with HubSpot adapting to a more flexible approach that includes remote work options, which has become a significant feature in company culture discussions.

💡Diversity

Diversity in the context of the video refers to the variety of backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives within a company. Dharmeshra mentions the importance of considering diversity early on in a company's formation to avoid 'culture debt' and to ensure that the organization is inclusive and representative of different voices.

💡Product Framing

Product framing is the approach of viewing a concept or initiative as if it were a product that needs to be developed, tested, and iterated upon. Dharmeshra uses this concept to discuss how he approached defining HubSpot's culture, treating it like an engineering project that required input from 'customers' or employees to refine and improve.

💡Pajama Principle

The 'Pajama Principle' is a concept introduced by Dharmeshra that suggests success is proportional to the degree to which employees are allowed flexibility, such as working from home in their pajamas. This principle reflects the growing importance of work-life balance and flexibility in modern work culture.

Highlights

Dharmesh Shah, co-founder and CTO of HubSpot, discusses the company's culture and its impact on the entrepreneurial ecosystem.

HubSpot's culture code has been downloaded nearly 4 million times, highlighting its influence on company culture discussions.

Dharmesh emphasizes the importance of embracing entrepreneurial spirit in employees and supporting their future ventures.

HubSpot is recognized as a 'mafia company', fostering an ecosystem of successful startups founded by former employees.

Dharmesh shares his perspective on intentionally building a culture that encourages employees to eventually start their own companies.

HubSpot's culture is likened to a startup MBA, offering valuable learning experiences and networking opportunities.

The company's culture has been acknowledged as a key factor in HubSpot being voted one of the best places to work.

Dharmesh's introverted nature and unique role in shaping HubSpot's culture without direct reports is explored.

The origin story of HubSpot's culture code is shared, including initial resistance and its evolution into a comprehensive guide.

Dharmesh describes the process of defining HubSpot's culture, starting with a survey and identifying core values like humility and transparency.

The culture code is expanded from 16 to 128 slides, transforming into a detailed operating system for decision-making at HubSpot.

Releasing the culture code to the public has been beneficial for HubSpot, with Netflix's example serving as inspiration.

Dharmesh advises founders to work on culture early and to use it as a tool for self-selection among candidates.

Culture is compared to a product, with employees as customers, emphasizing the need for continuous iteration and improvement.

The importance of considering diversity early in the hiring process is discussed, along with the concept of 'culture debt'.

Dharmesh regrets not focusing on culture and diversity earlier in HubSpot's history, highlighting it as a significant professional mistake.

Startups are encouraged to make deliberate efforts in hiring for diversity, even if it takes more time, to avoid long-term negative impacts.

The interview concludes with a discussion on the importance of flexibility as a key feature in company culture, especially in the new normal.

Transcripts

it is my absolute pleasure to welcome

dharmeshra to the stage

hello everyone

so awesome to have you here um as many

of you probably know darmesh is the

co-founder and cto of hubspot in 2013

darmesh also published hubspot's culture

code which we're going to spend some

time talking about today which is at

almost 4 million downloads i believe

which is incredible

he's a very frequent speaker on startups

on inbound marketing and company culture

and speaking of the the

broader entrepreneurial ecosystem you

know the thing i'm interested in is

mafia company and we talk about this in

venture world and you know paypal is a

classic example and hubspot is now

pretty established as what we call a

mafia company and for those who don't

know the reference it's you know when

early employees of companies go off to

spin out their own companies and so it's

become a bit of a system there's great

companies like drift and inside squared

avcu's rola

wonderment is one that we're proud to

back all have been founded by early

hubspot folks and it's it's interesting

because you know some some founders and

leaders actually deliberately don't want

that to happen they want people just

focused on what they're building here at

this company and want to want to

keep people focused on that but i'm

curious what's your take on this was

this intentional and how has this sort

of played into your hiring

it was intentional and i too fall into

that camp that if i could wave a magic

wand and get people to stay uh the best

people forever i would totally do that

i'm i'm very uh self-serving that way

but one thing we recognize is that

pragmatically if we are looking to hire

which i think most founders are um

higher on to the team people that are

entrepreneurially minded and creative

and have that energy that you know that

you need him to start up in this in its

early stages um if you're going to

recruit those kind of people you have to

be prepared for the fact that um they're

not going to work for you forever that

they're going to want to like someday

start something on their own so in all

the kind of recruiting meetings um you

know that i've done that's kind of been

part of the pitch and it's true which is

you know if you have a startup idea that

you're just that's kind of burning a

hole in your head you should go do it

right like we are completely supportive

um let us know if we can help uh we'll

look at investor decks and i mean pitch

decks and things like that great if

you're entrepreneurial but you don't yet

have an idea that you think is like good

enough for you to kind of devote your

time to spend some time in hubspot it'll

be the equivalent of a startup mba

you'll meet lots of cool people you'll

learn some things you'll get exposed to

a bunch of stuff

that we're learning as we scale and your

odds of success uh will go up when you

do start your startup so

and and that works well and has

borne out to be true and you know part

of our kind of pitches we don't want to

just build a great company in the boston

area we want to build great

entrepreneurs and we did intentionally

do that in terms of those that were

coming up and we knew there were folks

that were willing to go off and uh and

do startups someday is to

we enjoy them while they're there they

contribute immense amount of value when

they're there but we stay friends we

invested a lot of them i personally

invested a lot of them but uh

yeah it's worked out well yeah

well it's a very open-minded and

forward-looking view which um i think we

need more and more of so looking forward

to more of the hubspot mafia and future

ones as well sort of the next gen yeah

so this brings me a little bit to

culture you're starting to talk about it

a bit um and i'm very excited for this

topic i know it's one you're passionate

about you know having looked at some of

the work that you've done i mean the

culture code document is amazing so for

those who haven't checked it out i

highly recommend it i've read all 128

slides of it and clearly you're doing

something right because you know back in

uh 2021 not back in in 2021 um

hubspot was voted number four best place

to work which is an incredible

accomplishment so i'm going to be really

proud of and also in 2020 it was voted a

best large company for women to work for

which i think is also something to be

very proud of particularly in this

industry so

clearly the the the work that you're

doing is paying off and doing something

very right i also think it's interesting

in sort of my research in this is that

you know you were

deemed sort of the definer and keeper of

hubspot's culture and there's a lot of

reasons why this is interesting i think

as an introvert that's interesting and

also it's my understanding that you

don't have direct reports is that

correct that's correct yep

it's sort of an interesting role for for

you so i'm curious how did you become

responsible for this and can you tell us

about how you approached uh defining

hubspot's culture in the early days yeah

i'll give you a short version of the

back story which is uh you know brian my

co-founder who's ceo of hubspot

um

came back from one of these ceo group

meetings uh that he went to regular

quarterly basis where he talked and i

always envisioned that i'm sitting in a

circle and you know singing ceo songs

where but anyway he came back from one

of these and the theme that day happened

to be culture and brian's kind of take

at that time was oh well you know

culture's something we'll kind of work

on as we get bigger but right now we're

so early stage we're focused on building

the product and selling the product and

growing and doing all the things that a

startup has to do and his ceo group uh

came down on him pretty hard like brian

you don't get it like there is nothing

more important than culture if you don't

get that right

like nothing else will matter

over the long haul um so he kind of took

that and we had one of our um

uh founders dinners which are you know

three to five hour um affairs

um involving alcohol and

he and he shared this with me it's like

oh i just had my ceo group thing i'm

like oh cool what'd you learn and he's

like well this you know this culture

thing is evidently really important i'm

like great it's very important it's like

dimension why don't you go do that i

think that's those i'm paraphrasing but

that was exact terms

why don't you go do that i'm like i have

no idea what that means with all the

people at hubspot um

to choose to work on like these people

issues why pick the one that like

least likes being around people right

an orthodox uh choice

uh but

i'm like okay fine um you know he had

the ceo job he's doing a ton of things

as well carry my weight and i treated it

like i always do i treated like an

engineering project it's like okay

well we have to have some sort of

culture whatever it is all i need to do

is release the document things seem to

go in really well and i so started with

a

uh a survey um which

uh asked the kind of standard nps

question a scale of 0 to 10 how likely

are you to recommend hubspot as a place

to work um and then the why the

qualitative question couple things i

learned here like as soon as i shared

with uh the team at the time um

the fact that i was kind of

working on culture and thinking about

culture i had um up until that point

probably even until now the most

negative visceral reaction from the team

that i've ever had in

my professional career let alone hubspot

and people he said things like oh so

we're so we're gonna do this culture

thing now and then it's gonna be like i

mean a mission statement's on the wall

and we're going to become like one of

those companies and then the thing that

really got me was uh when uh one of the

team members who by the way i'd hired

all these people these were not some

random strangers that didn't know who i

was what i was about it's like darmesh

you know i don't know how to tell you

this but i don't think hubspot's the

kind of company i thought i joined

yes you're killing me here's like why

such a deep negative visceral reaction i

was not expecting this and then it turns

out people when they think about culture

they think about this weird thing that

big companies do to impose platitudes

and it's just a classic like that's how

it is and it's product world and there's

also this thinking oh it should be

organic just the fact that we're talking

about it makes it authentic and all this

there was a lot of stuff into it once we

got over that um it got a lot better a

lot quicker so the version one of the

culture code uh deck was um

was 16 slides

and it solved exactly it answered one

question which is um

and the question i ask myself is like

okay if i were to write a mathematical

function or a computer solid programming

function to approximate the probability

of success of any given hubspotter what

are the coefficients of the things that

are opacity what are the parameters to

that function right we might not know

the weights the relative uh but what

things would go in there

trying to like kind of boil it down to

that so what are the attributes so to

speak of uh

not good people but people that are

likely to succeed at hubspot which

sometimes are different questions but i

would look at like who is likely to

succeed i was a probabilistic model and

we came back with a set of set of

attributes that were highly correlated

with what we considered to be the best

most successful best fit people at

hubspot

and things like humility came out things

like transparency came out so that's

where the original kind of core values

of hubspot emerged and

it was interesting so i published that

deck internally only and

then the team came back i think it was

probably a couple years later it's like

garbage

that's been useful it tells us the who

it doesn't really tell us like how to

make decisions or how to make trade-offs

or do these things and so that's when um

i started working on what is now the uh

definitive

culture code deck which has been 128

slides since its inception that new v2

and so my apologies to all those that

have had to go through that but

it's been interesting so i thought of it

if i am now like okay it's not simply a

matter of a single function if i write

an operating system on which we could

run hubspot that would help us make

these kind of heuristic decisions on how

people make decisions what would that

look like and the so

when people see the term culture code

they often think code means like a code

of conduct or code of moral

ethics

i was actually thinking code like

cultural python um as it turns out

that's not uh that's not possible since

uh humans are very unpredictable

but anyway so the document's done really

well in terms of just

articulating hubspot's culture one big

lesson we learned is that it was useful

to obviously have as an internal

document uh releasing it to the world

which uh you know we give a hat tip to

netflix for which did that um

has been immensely helpful and i would

recommend all founders um you don't have

to write 128 slide deck but you should

be working more on culture than you

likely are right now at least amongst

the founding team in the early team

get a sense for what kind of company

you're trying to become what kinds of

people will tend to do well there and

share that especially with candidates

right if you want them to self-select in

and self-select out right so it should

be

this kind of document that helps you

separate like the people that are going

to be happy versus those that are

probably not going to be happy in your

company there's no

perfect right or wrong answer so this is

who we are if this feels like the place

you would enjoy that you should come

look at us if it doesn't don't harm no

foul that's great anyway sorry that was

a long-winded answer but that's

something

no i love it i think it's such a

fascinating story i love the the the

reference of code and

the path to design it and then i think

also the you know the act of iterating

it as as you evolve is is very valuable

and to your point i think a lot of

founders don't necessarily think about

it early enough or don't quite know how

to approach it yeah i think you just

love that

this as far as insight starts interrupt

uh but no

bad short-term memory my one piece of

advice this is the big kind of insight

that i've had personally working on this

now and it fits is that you should think

of culture as a product

like literally a product and the people

that work in the company your team are

the customers of that product so as you

think about if you think about it that

way a bunch of stuff starts to make

sense like number one you would never

build a product without asking the

customers what it is they're looking for

from that product number one right

number two you would never build a

product and not see if customers were

happy with the product or not by surveys

or usage or however you measure but you

would never build a product and say oh

that was fun i'm done with that product

now no product is ever done so you know

like one of the mistakes people make is

like oh we've got this culture now our

job is to preserve this culture for

eternity as for as long as we can

nope uh just like a product it needs to

iterate needs to fit whatever the use

cases are at a particular point in the

cust the company's evolution so the idea

is not to protect and preserve the

culture the idea is to optimize the

culture as you go so it continues to

serve as a well-functioning operating

system or a set of heuristics whatever

you want to think of it as but that

metaphor holds remarkably well every

time i poked and prodded i that was it

really yes um and

now look at it it's like some of the

things we've had happened over the last

year or two years um you know global

pandemics social um

social justice issues

it helps you answer a bunch of questions

which is okay well as it turns out like

oh should we be a remote company should

we be a hybrid couple what like what

should we be

part of the answer should be asking your

customers because that's a part of

culture and it might be that you have

one of those companies that everybody

wants to be remote everybody was visible

having to come into the office anyway

you don't know until you survey and then

just like a product you wouldn't always

do exactly what the customer said right

like you're solving for the long-term

interest of theirs as well um

but you said at least listen you don't

have to follow the direction you should

at least listen to the advice and listen

to the feedback um and so one thing

we've learned is that on the list of

features which has been roughly stable

um for a long time is this the

flexibility feature in terms of feature

requests has gone up which is not

surprising that's very it's not

counterintuitive at all it's very

intuitive which is that's one of the top

features people are looking for in a

company culture is like you know i'm

taking care of elder parents or i have

kids or i have this right it's like if

you can give them flexibility that will

often trump cop will often trump titles

in terms of i'd rather be a

senior director and a company that gives

me the flexibility than a vp somewhere

else like it's people actually do these

kind of calculations analyses in their

head

and they favor features if you if i

haven't done a conjoint analysis yet but

if i did

i think it would probably pop up as

being one of the key ones

i love i love that thinking of it as a

feature and also the product framing and

i'm looking at the chat i think it's

really resonating with people as i think

about this and i do think people are

curious about the the new normal and

future

state yeah i was

reading something that you wrote back

actually in 2019 the pajama principle

success is proportional to the degree to

which you let people stay in their

pajamas and if i look at your 2020 i

think that's probably quite true so i

think that the flexibility is something

that really resonates with folks and as

they're thinking about um what's ahead i

think that's an important one for people

too

to um to think about and internalize

um if you're open to i'm sure we could

talk about this topic for hours but i'd

love to shift gears a little bit just to

make sure we can cover something so

darmesh if you were given a chance to go

back in time and build hubspot again

what would you do differently

the one thing that jumps to mind because

this is on the list of like top three

biggest professional mistakes i've made

in my career um i would start working on

culture earlier uh sooner so it was

several years in before that

conversation with brian happen where we

started getting intentional about

culture and part b is recognizing the

importance of diversity and building out

the early team like i that candidly that

thought had just not even crossed my

mind right it was a uh it was not a

deliberate oh we're going to hire people

that look just like us but we ended up

hiring people that you know everyone

pretty much had an

uh all came out of mit sloan not all

like eight out of the first 10 hires

were mit sloan grads um alternating

years and and we hired for

lack of a better term in-network out of

convenience

and

we should have we should have made a

more deliberate effort it's much easier

to do that uh and solve for diversity

and it has long-range positive impact as

we're now learning um as an industry as

a society uh the importance of that um

and it's really hard to fix later right

once you're at scale say okay well now

we're going to try and go back and pay

off what i think of as culture debt when

you have this homogenous organization

where everybody like everybody else um

yeah and in technology debt the good

news is uh if you incur technology debt

most of the time you can refactor that

piece of code that you took shortcuts on

and you can kind of pee that debt off

it's like okay well i know we took a

shortcut we had to find the product out

the door

culture debt is much more insidious

right there's no check you can write

there's no code you can rewrite because

that

the roots of that are sometimes very

deeply planted right it's like then

first you have to convince the

organization that it's important then

you have to say what does that mean

actually like what do you actually do

and then you have to have the patience

to say okay well we spent you know a

decade uh not being as mindful of this

as we should have been

it's going to take decades uh plural to

actually get it to likely where we

wanted to be but um but you have to

start the journey anyway so my piece of

advice would be

think about diversity early it'll be

much easier think about even though you

may not actually get it

at least you plant the seed in your

team's head that that's important right

it's like oh we look for uh looked

higher for diversity i know the last two

or three weren't as diverse as we would

have liked but otherwise if you don't

even talk about it then everybody just

assumes that that doesn't really matter

that's the signal that's being sent uh

when you don't do it uh so at least

at least give it effort uh give it a

time given consideration

it's one of the top things that that we

hear and i like the framing of culture

debt but you put touch on something

that's hard particularly for early stage

startups trying to go fast and and

oftentimes what we've seen is getting

that diversity in earlier sometimes can

take longer um because the pipeline

challenges and things like that

you know you said just talking about

this is a good first step

how do you think about how do you think

startups should think about that

trade-off in sort of time versus really

investing in this effort because

it can be um

challenging yeah so there's a spectrum

here right the ideal state is you

actually hire for diversity and and you

do it right whatever time it takes next

step down is

you make attempts at it and you can and

it should be measurable it's like okay

well did we

and you know we have something that

helps call the rooney rule where for

every every hire you know above a

certain level there has to be a diverse

candidate for the pool we have to have

at least consider someone that they may

or may not have been the right fit uh

we're not forcing anyone to hire anyone

but um

so it's like going down the spectrum so

ideally you try to hire if not you least

put the processes in place that make it

possible to hire um and yes it takes an

investment and yes uh you know hiring

pipelines are a problem uh and then but

at a bare minimum um i'm not saying you

should

um you know beat yourself up over it but

you should beat yourself up over it's

like okay we tried it was one it was two

it's understandable three but we're like

ten people now and we still have not had

a single one

something's not right you know i don't

think we're trying hard enough let's

let's look a little deeper maybe make a

sacrifice to say the next one we'll

we'll take uh be more deliberate and

we'll take our time with it yeah there's

there's gonna be negative trade-offs but

they're definitely negative tradeoffs on

the other side too so yeah no i think

the articulation of the culture debt is

a great way to think about what the

negative tradeoffs are on the flip side

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