EXCLUSIVE: ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes

Summary

In an interview at the International Criminal Court (ICC), Prosecutor Kerim Hahn announces applications for arrest warrants against top military and political leaders from both Hamas and the Israeli government. Hahn details the charges, including extermination, murder, hostage-taking, and rape, and discusses the evidence supporting these claims. He also addresses the allegations of political bias and the ICC's jurisdiction, emphasizing the court's commitment to equal application of the law and the pursuit of justice for victims on all sides.

Takeaways

• 📜 Prosecutor Kerim Hahn has applied for arrest warrants for top military and political leaders in the Israel-Gaza conflict since the events of October 7th.
• 🔍 The International Criminal Court (ICC) is considering charges against three Hamas members: Yahya Sinwar, Deif, and Ismail Haniya, for alleged crimes including extermination, murder, hostage-taking, and sexual assault in detention.
• 🏛 The ICC has also applied for warrants against Israeli leaders, Prime Minister Netanyahu and Minister of Defense Galant, for crimes of causing extermination, starvation, and denial of humanitarian relief as methods of war.
• 📹 Evidence supporting the applications includes authenticated videos, photographs, CCTV footage, eyewitness accounts, and expert testimonies from survivors.
• 👶 There is a focus on the impact on civilians, with reports of children dying from malnutrition-related conditions due to the blockade and restrictions in Gaza.
• 🚨 The prosecutor emphasizes that the charges are based on a realistic prospect of conviction and a thorough forensic analysis of the evidence.
• 🏦 The script highlights statements from Israeli leaders that may indicate intent to commit the alleged crimes, including imposing a complete siege and denying essentials to the civilian population.
• 🌍 The prosecutor addresses criticism and political pressure, asserting that the court is guided by evidence and the law, not by emotion or political considerations.
• 🏳️‍🌈 Hahn stresses the importance of the ICC as a forum for equal application of the law, regardless of nationality, religion, or political affiliations.
• 🤝 The prosecutor encourages engagement and accountability from all parties, including the possibility for Israel to challenge the court's jurisdiction if they believe they are conducting their own investigations.
• 🔗 The jurisdiction of the ICC in this matter is established through the Rome Statute and the recognition of Palestine as a state party, as well as the Geneva Conventions.

Q & A

Who is Prosecutor Kerim Hahn applying for arrest warrants against and for what charges?

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn is applying for arrest warrants against three Hamas members: Yahya Sinwar, Deif, and Ismail Haniyeh. The charges include extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape, and sexual assault in detention. Additionally, warrants are being sought for Prime Minister Netanyahu and Minister of Defense Galant for crimes of causing extermination, causing starvation as a method of war, and deliberately targeting civilians in conflict.

What evidence does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn have to support the applications for arrest warrants?

The evidence includes authenticated videos and photographs, CCTV camera pictures, eyewitness evidence, survivor testimonies, and expert evidence. This body of evidence has been authenticated and is considered relevant and probative to sustain the crimes alleged.

How does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn respond to the criticism that the ICC's involvement is politically motivated?

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn emphasizes that the court is guided by evidence and the law, not politics. He mentions that the court's actions are based on the principles of the Rome Statute, which are quintessential American values and should engender bipartisan support. He also states that the court is built to stand against bullying and untrammeled power, protecting the rights and dignity of individuals.

What is the significance of the charges of 'starvation as a method of war' and why is it relevant in this case?

Starvation as a method of war is a war crime under international law, recognized by the ICC since its establishment in 1998. It is relevant in this case because there is evidence suggesting the denial of humanitarian relief supplies, deliberately targeting civilians, and causing conditions that lead to starvation among the population in Gaza.

Why does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn believe there is a realistic prospect of conviction for the charges put forward?

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn believes there is a realistic prospect of conviction because the evidence collected is not only sufficient to issue a warrant but also robust enough to bring the cases to a successful conclusion in court. The evidence has been authenticated and is considered to have a probative value that can sustain the crimes alleged.

How does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn address the issue of Israel's own judiciary and law enforcement system in relation to these crimes?

He acknowledges Israel's judiciary and law enforcement but points out that there appears to be a lack of vigor and sincerity in applying the law to the occupied territories or in Gaza. He suggests that if Israel believes they are investigating the same individuals and conduct, they can raise a challenge before the ICC judges.

What is the role of the ICC pretrial chamber in this process of applying for arrest warrants?

The ICC pretrial chamber is responsible for reviewing the applications for arrest warrants. They will independently and dispassionately assess the evidence and information provided by the prosecution to determine whether or not to issue the warrants.

Why does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn emphasize the importance of the law being applied equally to all?

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn emphasizes the equal application of the law to underscore the court's commitment to justice and the principles of the Rome Statute. He argues that no one should be above the law, regardless of nationality, religion, or any other factor, to ensure the integrity of the international rules-based system.

What does Prosecutor Kerim Hahn say about the potential impact of the ICC's actions on the situation in Gaza and the West Bank?

He expresses concern about the worsening situation in Gaza and the West Bank, highlighting the suffering of innocent people. He stresses the court's role in trying to achieve justice for the victims and the importance of holding perpetrators accountable, regardless of their affiliations.

How does the script reflect on the broader implications of the ICC's actions for international law and global justice?

The script reflects on the broader implications by discussing the importance of adhering to international law and the Rome Statute, the necessity of holding powerful entities accountable, and the court's role in ensuring that justice is served without bias or selectivity.

Outlines

00:00

📜 ICC Prosecution Announces Arrest Warrants for Gaza War Leaders

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn discusses the International Criminal Court's (ICC) decision to apply for arrest warrants against top military and political leaders involved in the Israel-Gaza conflict since October 7th. The charges include extermination, murder, hostage-taking, and sexual assault, with evidence ranging from videos and photographs to eyewitness testimonies. The prosecutor also mentions warrants against Israeli leaders, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, for crimes against humanity, such as causing starvation and denying humanitarian aid.

05:01

🔍 Ongoing Investigations into War Crimes and Starvation as a Weapon

The prosecutor clarifies that while genocide is a term used by both sides, the charges put forward do not currently include it, as the situation is complex and under active investigation. Starvation as a war crime is highlighted, with the prosecutor noting the severe restrictions on humanitarian supplies to Gaza and the impact on civilians, especially children. Statements by Israeli officials are considered as part of the evidence, along with the broader context of Israel's obligations as an occupying power.

10:01

🏥 The Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza and International Law Violations

The conversation delves into the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, with a focus on the destruction of essential resources like water, electricity, and healthcare. The prosecutor discusses the international law implications of these actions, emphasizing the obligations of Israel as an occupying power to ensure the survival of the civilian population. The denial of aid and the collective punishment of Gaza's people are presented as part of a potential criminal plan.

15:02

📜 The Legal Basis and Challenges of Issuing Arrest Warrants

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn addresses the legal standards for issuing arrest warrants, emphasizing the need for a realistic prospect of conviction. He also discusses the political nature of the case, the pressure faced by the ICC, and the importance of adhering to the rule of law. Criticism from the United States and the principle of equal application of the law are also touched upon, with the prosecutor maintaining that the court's actions are not politically motivated.

20:02

🌍 Jurisdiction, Accountability, and the Role of Democracies in International Law

The prosecutor defends the ICC's jurisdiction over the situation, referencing Palestine's status as a state party to the Rome Statute and the Geneva Conventions. He highlights the lack of accountability within Israel's system for actions in the occupied territories and Gaza, and the need for the ICC to move forward in the absence of effective domestic remedies. The role of democracies and the importance of an independent judiciary are also discussed.

25:03

👥 The Prospects of Arresting Indicated Leaders and the Importance of Equal Application of Law

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn discusses the practical challenges of apprehending the leaders for whom arrest warrants have been sought, considering the ICC's lack of a police force and the potential locations of the accused. He stresses the importance of the equal application of law, regardless of political or national interests, and the need for the court to maintain its independence and integrity in the pursuit of justice.

Keywords

💡ICC

The ICC stands for the International Criminal Court, which is an intergovernmental organization and international tribunal that sits in The Hague in the Netherlands. The ICC is responsible for prosecuting individuals for international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. In the script, the ICC is central as it is where Prosecutor Kerim Hahn is applying for arrest warrants for various leaders due to their alleged involvement in war crimes.

💡Arrest Warrants

Arrest warrants are legal orders issued by a court of law, typically directed to law enforcement, to arrest an individual who is suspected of having committed a crime. In the context of the video, arrest warrants are sought for top military and political leaders in relation to the Israel-Gaza conflict, indicating a serious level of alleged criminal activity.

💡Extermination

Extermination refers to the mass killing or annihilation of a group of people. In the script, it is one of the charges applied for in the arrest warrants, suggesting that the individuals in question are accused of committing acts that have led to mass deaths, which is a grave violation of human rights and international law.

💡Hostages

A hostage is a person who is held captive by an individual or a group as leverage over another party. In the video script, taking of hostages is mentioned as one of the charges, indicating that there are allegations of individuals being unlawfully detained for strategic advantage in the conflict.

💡Starvation

Starvation refers to the extreme lack of food leading to malnutrition and potentially death. The script discusses the use of starvation as a method of war, which is a war crime under international law. It is mentioned as a charge against the top political and military leadership of the state of Israel, suggesting a deliberate policy to deny food to civilians as a tactic in the conflict.

💡Humanitarian Relief Supplies

Humanitarian relief supplies are provisions and aid given to people in crisis or in conflict zones to alleviate suffering and meet basic needs. The script mentions the denial of humanitarian relief supplies as part of the alleged crimes, highlighting a critical issue where essential aid is being withheld, exacerbating the suffering of the affected population.

💡Geneva Conventions

The Geneva Conventions are a series of international treaties that provide the standards for humanitarian treatment in war. They specifically cover the treatment of wounded and sick in armed forces, the treatment of prisoners of war, the treatment of civilians in times of war, and the protection of victims of international armed conflicts. The script references the Geneva Conventions to underscore the legal framework that prohibits the alleged crimes being discussed.

💡Rome Statute

The Rome Statute is the treaty that established the International Criminal Court. It defines the court's jurisdiction and the crimes it can prosecute, including genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. The script mentions the Rome Statute as the legal basis for the ICC's involvement in the case and the charges being brought against the individuals.

💡Complementarity

Complementarity in the context of the ICC refers to the principle that the court only exercises jurisdiction when national courts are unable or unwilling to genuinely prosecute crimes. The script mentions complementarity as a potential avenue for Israel to address the allegations, suggesting that if Israel does not genuinely address the crimes internally, the ICC may step in.

💡State of Palestine

The State of Palestine is a de jure sovereign state in the Middle East, which claims the West Bank and Gaza Strip as its territories. The script discusses the recognition of Palestine as a state party to the Rome Statute, which grants the ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed in these territories.

💡Human Rights

Human rights are the basic rights and freedoms to which all individuals are entitled, including the right to life, liberty, and security of person. The script repeatedly emphasizes the importance of human rights in the context of the conflict, highlighting the alleged violations and the need for accountability to uphold these fundamental rights.

Highlights

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn is applying for arrest warrants for top military and political leadership in the Israel Gaza war since the October 7th events.

Charges include extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape, and sexual assault in detention.

Evidence supporting the applications includes authenticated videos, photographs, CCTV footage, eyewitness evidence, and expert evidence.

Warrants are also being sought for Prime Minister Netanyahu and Minister of Defense Galant for crimes of causing extermination and starvation as a method of war.

The situation in Gaza has led to the denial of humanitarian relief supplies and deliberate targeting of civilians in conflict.

Prosecutor Hahn emphasizes the ongoing investigation into the alleged genocide, despite not including it in the current charges.

Extermination is differentiated from genocide, with the latter requiring specific intent to destroy a group in whole or in part.

Starvation as a weapon of war is being considered, with evidence of its use by Netanyahu and Galant.

Humanitarian conditions in Gaza have worsened, with 28 children under 12 dying due to malnutrition-related conditions.

International law requires the occupying power, Israel, to ensure food and essential objects for survival reach civilians.

Prosecutor Hahn discusses the lack of accountability and disregard for international law in the occupied territories and Gaza.

The ICC's jurisdiction over Palestine is established through the Rome Statute and recognition by the General Assembly.

Criticism from the United States, including threats to the ICC and its employees, is addressed by Prosecutor Hahn.

Hahn emphasizes the importance of the ICC's independence and the equal application of the law, regardless of political considerations.

The prosecutor calls for Israel to engage with the ICC process and to meet the principles of complementarity.

The ICC's role in upholding international law and the importance of its work in the face of global challenges are highlighted.

Prosecutor Hahn concludes by stressing the need for justice for the victims and the importance of the ICC's work in Gaza and the West Bank.

Transcripts

Prosecutor Kerim Hahn,

welcome to the program.

Thank you for having me.

And of course, we're here at the ICC.

You are today

announcing that you are applying

for arrest warrants

for top military and political leadership

in the Israel Gaza war

since the October 7th events.

First and foremost, explain to me exactly

what you're asking for and who you are

charging today.

Christiane, we've applied for warrants

to the pretrial chamber

of the International Criminal Court

in relation to three individuals

that are Hamas members,

Sinwar, who's in charge on the ground?

That's Yahya Sinwar. Absolutely.

Deif,

who's in charge of the custom Brigade.

And Haniya,

who's one of their political bureau

based in Doha.

Let me just for everybody to understand,

Yassin was the head of what they call

the Islamic Resistance

movement, Hamas,

the military operation,

or even even wider.

Mohammad Dhiab, Ibrahim

al Masri, otherwise known as Dave,

commander in chief of the Military Wings

al-Hassan Brigade,

and Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas

political bureau.

What are the charges?

The charges are extermination, murder,

taking of hostages,

rape and sexual assault in detention.

So these are the key

crimes that are alleged

to have been committed

by these two individuals.

The world was shocked

on the 7th of October

when people were ripped

from their bedrooms, from their homes,

from the different kibbutzim in Israel.

And people have suffered enormously.

And we have a variety of evidence

to support the applications

that we've submitted to the judges.

And just tell us what the evidence is.

Obviously,

the world has seen the real time images.

The Israeli government

has put out videos

which it said to the UN and others

journalists about what happened.

There are body cams on many of the Hamas

fighters, whoever was there at the time.

Is that the evidence or do you have more?

We have more.

We have

authenticated videos and photographs.

We have CCTV

camera pictures.

We have eyewitness evidence.

We have evidence of survivors.

I mean, it is remarkable

the victims and survivors

that have from Israel

that have engaged with my office

have this

righteous demand for justice

and accountability. They've come here.

I've also met them

in the different kibbutzim, and they want

justice and accountability.

So we have expert evidence.

So there's a whole variety of information

that we have authenticated

that we think is relevant and probative.

And that is sufficient,

we say, to sustain the

the crimes

that we put forward to the judges.

You have also issued warrants

against the top political

and military

leadership of the government

of the state of Israel.

We've applied for warrants.

Of course,

the judges must determine

whether or not to issue them.

But we've applied today

will apply for warrants

for Prime Minister Netanyahu

and also Minister of Defense Galant

for crimes of

causing

extermination and causing starvation

as a method of war,

including the denial

of humanitarian relief supplies,

deliberately targeting

civilians in in conflict.

And

the sad thing really is in relation

to both categories,

I have been saying repeatedly

in

Cairo in October last year at the Rafah

crossing

on Israeli television in Ramallah,

everywhere I can to the parties,

to the conflict,

complain now, don't complain later.

And of course, hostages

have not been released.

That insidious crime continues

for so many innocent Israelis

that are in custody,

you know, held hostage

by Hamas and families

that are waiting for their return.

And of course, we see pictures

of starving children,

of emaciated children.

We have a variety of evidence to support,

not polemics, but evidence

that's been forensically analyzed

to sustain the charge

also of starvation

being used by Netanyahu and Galant

as a method of war.

And it's awful that in 2024,

we have had to submit these applications

to the judges of the ICC for warrants.

I'm going to get into starvation

as a weapon of war in a moment.

But first, I want to ask you.

The word genocide

has been used by both sides

and many believe that genocide

is being committed.

But you do not

you're not using that word.

Well,

this is an active investigation

and we have a

criminal charges

that we can use genocide,

war crimes and crimes against humanity

in relation to this current stage

of investigations.

The charges

that we have put forward to the judges

do not include genocide,

but we are continuing to investigate.

It's a very complex situation.

We have not been allowed access into Gaza

by the Israeli authorities.

We are also continuing our investigations

in relation to the Hamas attacks.

And if and when the evidence points us

in a particular direction,

we will not hesitate to act.

So it's still an active investigation.

But yes, today we haven't.

What is extermination? It's mass killing.

Different than genocide.

Yes.

Genocide is defined by specific intent,

not only killing, but an intention

to destroy the group in whole

or in part to be suspiciously content,

to destroy the group in whole or in part.

So we're not

we have not

included in our application today

a request for warrants

for the crime of genocide.

So extermination, war

crimes, crimes against humanity.

I want to ask you about starvation,

because although it was accepted

by the ICC as a war crime

when you were created in 1998,

I don't believe it's ever

been prosecuted

before as a weapon of war.

No, it's not that I'm aware of.

I think, unfortunately,

this situation will be a first.

And it's very unusual.

We see a population,

large numbers of children and women

that have already endured

more than 17 years of a very rigid regime

of allowing goods into Gaza.

I think even in 2022, the United Nations

and others said

that 80% of the population,

you know,

lived on humanitarian supplies.

And that's just become

even more pernicious

since the 8th of October

with all the other restrictions.

And,

you know,

the words

of the Secretary-General

of the United Nations, of the head

of the Office

of Coordination, of Humanitarian

Humanitarian Affairs, Martin Griffiths,

W.H.O., UNICEF.

I mean, it seems everybody

in the international firmament

has spoken with grave concern.

A extreme concern,

but we haven't seen food,

water, medicines

go to the most vulnerable.

And they have those rights

not because of

something that I'm saying

it's because it's required

in the Geneva Conventions

and it's required in the Rome Statute.

So as of April 17th,

according to humanitarian organizations

and the authorities,

whatever exist on the ground in Gaza,

28 children under 12 have died,

including 12 babies

about a month old,

because of malnutrition related

conditions.

The defense minister, you

have Galland,

who today

you are issuing an arrest warrant

or the request for an arrest warrant

for said on October 9th,

two days after October 7th.

We are imposing a complete siege.

There will be no electricity,

no food, no water, no fuel.

Everything is closed.

We are fighting human animals

and we will act accordingly.

Prime Minister

Netanyahu on October

13th said We will exact a price

that will be remembered by them

and Israel's

other enemies for decades to come.

Are those is that the basis

on which you establish intent,

or is that what is that

much of your evidence?

Much more than that.

But yes,

some of the words

uttered by the two individuals,

Minister of Defense Gallant

and Prime Minister Netanyahu,

are, of course, probative and relevant.

The fact that so many other individuals

have said, you know, words like there's

no such thing

as an innocent civilian in Gaza.

They're all responsible.

The words

by members of the security committee.

I mean, there's a whole variety of words

that are said and done by the government

that have not been disowned,

that have not been

denied, that have not that

they do to individuals,

have not disassociated themselves from.

And I think that's relevant.

But it's again, it's

a very complex operation.

It's not just the denial of aid.

It's the fact that as an occupying power,

Israel has an affirmative obligation

to make sure food and the objects

indispensable to survival

get to the civilians,

have an affirmative obligation

that in control of the north of Gaza,

for example, IDF tanks are in situ.

They could guard

aid convoys going in

and making sure it goes to the camps.

They're not doing that.

But in addition, one

has to look at a wider aspect.

Water has been cut off.

Electricity

has been plants have been

either destroyed or targeted.

Fuel can't go in.

Desalination

plants are completely dysfunctional.

There's no

desalination plant in the north of Gaza

at all.

Water purification tablets,

filtration systems have been classified

as dual use

objects, as have incubators,

as has oxygen for hospital,

as have anesthetics.

One sees

90% of all the greenhouses

in the north of Gaza destroyed 40% of

the land that was used for agriculture

has been destroyed since

the conflict started.

70% of the fishing vessels,

I mean, every avenue

that is so important to human survival

has been constrained

or suffocated because of a policy.

And the words of the Secretary-General

of the United Nations,

which said we're at breaking point.

The words of UNICEF, the words of UNWRA,

saying that we've got a trickle of aid

in a sea of need, all of these, you know,

giants of the international system,

their words, that concerns

have been put to one side,

unfortunately, in the face of

other imperatives.

And what seems to be a bit also filth,

the collective punishment of the

people of Gaza.

What is the international law

on the restrictions

that you're talking about

and for instance,

the checking of aid convoys?

The Israeli government says

it is at war with a terror organization

and has worked in coordination

with the US, Egypt

and international aid agencies

to get aid in.

Netanyahu himself, on October 29th,

after two weeks of nothing getting in

another week

later said we must prevent

a humanitarian disaster.

What do you make of those words

and what is the law

on stopping and checking aid convoys?

See, we have to look at words

and analyze them against

what is taking place.

Prime Minister

Netanyahu has been on the record

to say that

the access of humanitarian aid

gives Israel important leeway

that is being used.

Have talked about a diplomatic

iron dome as part of,

you know,

allowing aid in and not allowing aid

and all the rest of it.

Israel has every right

not to give succor to Hamas.

That is not contested.

Israel has every right

and did

an obligation to get hostages back.

But you must do so

by complying with the law.

The fact that Hamas fighters need water

doesn't justify denying water

from all the civilian population of Gaza.

There is an obligation,

as I said, it's an affirmative

in addition

to everything else

is an affirmative obligation

as an occupying power

that Israel is to make sure water,

medicines, anesthetics, insulin

goes to the people that need it.

If tanks can go in, why can't those tanks

and those soldiers guard aid convoys?

So there's a lot of

deficiencies that give rise

not just to recklessness

or negligence or indifference,

but seems to be part

of a criminal common plan to deny

these objects in dispensing both

to the survival

of the civilian population.

And how many doctors

have to talk about

amputating the limbs of little babies

or children without anesthetic,

or how many people need to die

without insulin,

or how many people with severe burns

can be left

by the doctors

and the different hospitals

because they don't have

antibiotic creams for burns

and they can't save them without that

for us to realize

that the law is being breached.

Now, this is what we have analyzed

and we've presented it for judges

who make the final decision

if warrants should be issued or not.

And again, you say that you have

requested these warrants

based on a higher level of evidence

than is normally required,

not just that it is a reasonable

belief that it could lead

to actual warrants and of charge.

But you believe your evidence has what?

Well, I

when I came in as prosecutor,

the standard for a warrant

are reasonable grounds to believe

that's what the judges have to determine.

I across all our situations,

when I became prosecutor,

I required the leaders in the office,

the heads of the teams

to certify

that there is a realistic prospect

of conviction.

It's not enough in these kinds of cases

to have enough to issue a warrant.

We must be able to bring it home.

On both sides.

On both sides.

And in relation to both, I've determined

and the team are unanimous that we have a

realistic prospect of conviction

in relation to the three warrants

being sought regarding the Hamas leaders

and the two

that are being sought in relation to

Prime Minister Netanyahu

and Foreign Minister Galant.

And of course the judges will decide

if we've got it right

and our analysis is spot on or not.

I'm going to get to the actual

how you effect these warrants,

given the practical

things, the situation in a moment.

But first,

I want to ask you

about the so-called political nature

that many people will claim.

Prime Minister

Netanyahu has already said

ICC charges would be a scandal

on a historic scale,

an indelible stain

on the idea of justice.

Israel's commitment

to international law is unwavering.

And Netanyahu has also said

it would be an anti-Semitic hate crime.

Now, we haven't heard anything from Hamas

about how they would react.

What do you say to that?

There must have been a huge

amount of pressure on you

from all sides to do and not to do.

Well, this court,

Christiane, is a child of Nuremberg.

It was built because of

the awful pictures

that haunt us today of the Shoah

and the gas chambers

and then the Balkans.

And the list goes on.

And

we have to look at the evidence.

And the way I very simply

tried to do things is

look at the evidence,

look at the conduct, look at the victims

and airbrush out the nationality.

And if a crime has been committed,

we should move forward.

Nobody is above the law.

No people by dint of birth or passport,

religion, nationality

or the color of their skin

have a get out of jail

free card, have a free pass

to say what the law doesn't apply to us.

This is a moment

when we see in the shadow of Ukraine

a increasing cacophony of noise,

of double standards and selectivity.

And what we're trying to do

is not go with a tide of emotion,

but take our time, move

as effectively as we can,

but be guided by evidence

and every human life, every baby

that is killed,

whether it's a baby

that's cruelly abducted by Hamas

and killed or a baby

that's been

bombed or killed

or has died in incubators

because of no electricity

or water or food in Gaza

for them, for their families

and for humanity, Humanity.

It's a tragedy.

And this is why we have a court.

It's about the equal application

of the law.

No, people are better than another.

I know people anywhere

are saints.

And so we have to

apply a yardstick of legality to conduct.

We've done that,

and this is why

we've made the applications

that the judges must determine.

I'm going to read you

some heavy criticism

that you've received

from the United States.

As we know,

the United States

is not a party to the ICC, nor is Israel.

Recently,

when word came out

that this may be happening at some point,

US senators and U.S.

Congress people,

mostly Republicans, wrote you

a letter, signed by Senator

Tom Cotton, Mitch McConnell,

Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and others.

This is the quote Target Israel

and we will target you

if you move forward with the measures

indicated in the report.

We will move to end all American support

for the ICC, sanction

your employees and associates,

and bar you and your families

from the United States.

You have been warned. Is that a threat?

I think

that's

the plain meaning of it in English.

But, you know,

there's hotheads everywhere

and there's people that are mature

statesmen and stateswoman

and and leaders.

There are those that have fidelity

to something greater than themselves,

whether it's their constitutions.

But ultimately, it's the rule of law.

The good news is,

I think for the last two

and a half years,

we've had very positive engagement

with the Biden administration

in the United States.

We're working

across a range of situations,

whether it's in Ukraine or Darfur.

And I've said to

distinguished members on the Hill

and to the administration

that Rome Statute values

are quintessential American values.

It's against bullying.

It's against the untrammeled power,

against the most vulnerable.

It's the rights,

the dignity

of the individual

is the protection of babies.

I mean, these are fundamental

American values

that should engender bipartisan support.

Now, of course,

this situation, unfortunately,

lives on the San Andreas

Fault of international politics and

strategic interests.

And of

course, I've had some elected leaders

speak to me and very,

you know, be very blunt.

This court is built for Africa

and for thugs like Putin was, what one

senior leader told me.

We don't view it like that.

This court is the legacy of Nuremberg.

This court is a sad

indictment of humanity.

This court should be the triumph of law

over power and brute force.

Grab what you can,

take what you want, do what you will.

And we're going to simply be and

we're not going to be dissuaded

by threats or any other activities,

because in the end,

we have to fulfill our responsibilities

as prosecutors,

as the men and women of the office,

as judges, as registry

to something bigger than ourselves,

which is the fidelity to justice.

And we're not going to be swayed

by the different types of threats,

some of which are public

and some maybe are not.

You mentioned without names

that there are many

who have been indicted

who are not in Democratic states,

who are essentially despots.

Israel is a democracy.

They have a judiciary.

They have law enforcement.

They have elected leaders.

Why do you need to do this

when they have a system

that could do this?

I'd much rather Israel does it.

I mean, Israel, you're right. It has a

very good Supreme Court.

It has very qualified, brilliant lawyers.

But even if you read recently

public information, for example,

in The New York Times,

I think the Bergman and Mazzoli report,

if one goes back to the eighties

and look at the COP report,

a deputy attorney general of Israel,

who said that Israel was unwilling

or unable to investigate crimes

in the occupied territories,

if one looks at the Sassoon report,

if one looks at General,

you have a three star general

that was in Washington, DC between

2019 and 2021

who said there's no accountability.

The simple truth is that

for all the application of the law

in the territory of Israel,

unfortunately it doesn't appear

to be

applied with vigor

or sincerity

in the occupied territories or in Gaza.

And this is why we have to move forward.

Of course, if Israel disagrees,

if they think they are investigating

the same individuals and the same conduct

and the policies that underpinned them,

they are free.

Notwithstanding their objections

to jurisdiction

to raise a challenge

before the judges of the court.

And that's what I advise them to do. But

the simple

truth of the matter

is the disregard of the law

in this situation and the policies

and the utterances

that are coming from the Prime minister,

the minister of defense

support

and corroborate the other evidence

we have from a variety of sources.

I just want to fill in for our viewers.

You mentioned in big New York Times

magazine report this weekend

by Ronen Bergman and Mark Mazzetti,

an eight year effort.

It was titled Unpunished.

And as you say,

it is about the failure

of the Israeli system.

Police, legal and military,

to punish settlers on the occupied West

Bank as they punish

Arab Palestinians on the West Bank.

Now,

you talk about the state of Palestine,

and therefore you have jurisdiction

over things that happen

in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.

There are those who disagree with you.

Clearly, Israel disagrees.

The United States disagrees.

They point out that as yet,

there is no official state of Palestine

recognized by the Security Council.

What is your jurisdiction there?

Well, it's a jurisdiction

that's detailed in the statute,

and that has been decided by majority

by the pretrial chamber.

Leaving aside the

for the moment,

the fact that 141 countries

have recognized Palestine as a state.

In the General.

Assembly, in the General Assembly,

124 states

that make up the Assembly

of State parties

agreed for Palestine to be accepted as a

state party to the Rome Statute.

And so by dint of that,

clearly we have jurisdiction.

The Geneva Conventions

also make it clear that it applies

to high contracting parties.

Israel is a high contracting

party, as is Palestine.

What does that mean?

It means that they have both committed

to comply with the provisions

of the Geneva Conventions.

That includes

the prohibition on starvation

as a method of war.

That includes the prohibition

on taking hostages

or willfully killing or extermination.

I mean, these come from the Rome Statute,

but originally they found form

in the Geneva Conventions.

So we apply the law.

There's been judicial pronouncements

by the

the ICC,

and we have to be guided by those.

The Hamas leaders

who have sought arrest warrants for.

Do you have any hope

that anybody will move against them?

Do you have any hope of

ever getting to them again?

The ICC does not have a police force.

You cannot go and apprehend.

As far as we know,

at least two of them are underground,

potentially in tunnels in Gaza.

And Ismail

Haniya

appears to be

the leader

involved in the political

negotiations, indirect between Israel

and Hamas

with the U.S., Qatar,

other nations mediating.

How do you expect to go after them?

Who do you think is

going to hand them over?

Well, the first thing is

the judge has to rule on the applications

until the judges rule on the application.

All it is is an application

that doesn't have legal effect.

But then states

have such responsibilities

and individuals have choices.

If individuals say that what their

what is alleged is not made out,

it's bunkum.

It's nonsense.

Put your case

before the independent

judges of the court.

This court has had acquittals.

This court has not confirmed cases.

The record shows

that it's a forensic laboratory

in which the evidence

determines

whether or not people are convicted,

cases are confirmed

or cases of kicked out.

That applies to Hamas leaders

if they want.

And if not,

we have to see

what are the other opportunities,

if they're either in Palestine,

which is a state party,

or if they're in Qatar,

which is a non-state party,

but in a way

that's getting ahead of ourselves.

Today,

the announcement is the application

and the judges have to be given the time

to independently

and dispassionately assess

what we've given. Nothing is a given.

They have to assess it

and make a determination

whether or not to issue warrants. But

I also

want to underline the fact that

you mentioned in an earlier question

the allegations of anti-Semitism,

the the hate, the idea that

by applying the law blindly,

we are favoring one side or persecuting

or being hostile to another side,

and nothing can be further

from the truth.

We have so many people of distinction

that are respected

and they independently came in.

I brought them in,

they sat in the evidence review.

And this is not a witch hunt.

This is not some kind

of emotional reaction to noise.

We've been criticized for going

too slowly, criticized

for going too fast.

It's a forensic process

that is expected of us

as international prosecutors,

as an independent court,

to build evidence that is solid,

that will not dissolve in the courtroom.

And that's what we've done

today, is the fulfillment of that

first stage.

This first round of applications

in which we say

we have done our job,

we now give it to the judges

to scrutinize.

So it's not against any people

and it's not against or for any interest.

It's simply

because if we don't

apply the law equally,

we're going to disintegrate as a species.

Of course,

what's happening in the West Bank is

extremely worrying.

It's an issue

also that we are investigating.

But there's a certain

in democracies,

political choices

tend to be determinative.

And all I can say is that Israel,

the leaders, the country, has a choice

that they can engage

and do what is necessary

to meet complementarity.

And the United Kingdom

in the Iraq investigations,

before I was appointed prosecutor,

it was found that there were deficiencies

in the legal system for military justice.

But we have really sincerely looked

at things with a broad horizon,

looking at incriminating

and exonerating evidence equally

looking at evidence,

authenticating the evidence,

and realizing that we're not worth

the job, the title as being a prosecutor

or being lawyers

or having an international

criminal court.

If we are dissuaded because of extraneous

interests from moving forward.

Because end of the day,

I go back to this basic

premise a child in

Myanmar that's

persecuted or a child in Israel

that is an orphan

or that has been taken and killed

or one in Ukraine for their family,

there's no difference.

The universe has been torn to shreds

and this is

the need for the court

and independent judges to scrutinize,

not look at the politics,

not look at a

dysfunctional Security Council,

not look at the difficulties it may cause

a regional organizer, nations

or different groupings,

but simply say, is the evidence reliable?

And if so,

we go back to King John

that the king is under no man

but God under the law.

We all must be subject to that.

Otherwise,

what is this

international rules based system?

What is the principles

of public international law

that so many men and women

have given their lives

for since the Second World

War particularly?

And I think it's a dishonor for them.

It's a dishonor

for the victims of the gas chambers.

If we airbrush out inconvenient truth

and we have to try our best

to achieve justice

for the victims of the 7th of October,

we also must try our best to do justice

for so many innocent people

that are suffering as we speak

in Israel and also in in Gaza,

as well as in other parts of Palestine.

Prosecutor Kerem Hahn, thank

you very much indeed for joining us.

Thank you so much.