How can the ICJ's orders against Israel on Gaza be enforced? | Inside Story

Summary

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has ordered Israel to cease its military operations in Gaza, a move prompted by South Africa's genocide case against Israel. Despite the ICJ's legally binding ruling, Israel has intensified its assault, raising questions about the enforceability of the court's orders. The discussion explores the potential impact of the ruling on the ground, the challenges faced by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu amid increasing international pressure, and the broader implications for Israel's international standing. Experts weigh in on the likelihood of Israel complying with the ICJ's directives and the potential consequences of continued defiance, including the role of the United States and the prospect of arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court.

Takeaways

• 🏢 The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has ordered Israel to cease its military operations in Rafah, Gaza, stating it may inflict conditions leading to the physical destruction of the Palestinian group.
• 📜 Israel has a history of not complying with ICJ orders, raising questions about the effectiveness and enforceability of such rulings.
• 🚨 Despite the ICJ's ruling, Israeli forces have intensified their attacks, indicating a disregard for the court's decision.
• 🌍 The case before the ICJ involves accusations of genocide in Gaza brought by South Africa against Israel.
• 🤔 There is skepticism among Palestinians and some Israelis about the impact of the ICJ's orders on the ground and the government's actions.
• 🛃 The ICJ also ordered Israel to reopen the Rafah border crossing to allow aid into Gaza, where famine is already affecting some areas.
• 🏛️ Israeli officials have condemned the ICJ's ruling, arguing they are defending themselves and fighting against Hamas, with some Israelis agreeing with this stance.
• 🔍 The ICJ's lack of enforcement mechanisms means that its orders rely heavily on political will and international pressure.
• 👥 The discussion included various perspectives: a lawyer practicing in Israeli and Palestinian legal systems, a former Israeli diplomat, and an international law expert.
• 🔄 The situation is complex, with the potential for the ICJ's rulings to influence other international bodies, such as the International Criminal Court, and to affect Israel's international standing.

Q & A

What has the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered Israel to do regarding its operations in Gaza?

The ICJ has ordered Israel to immediately stop its assault on Rafah in Gaza and to cease any military offensive and other actions that may inflict conditions of life aiming at the physical destruction of the Palestinian group in Gaza, in whole or in part.

What is the significance of the ICJ's ruling in the context of the wider legal case involving South Africa?

The ruling is part of a wider legal case that began with South Africa accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza. The ICJ's ruling is an emergency measure within this case, highlighting the urgency and severity of the situation.

How have Israeli forces responded to the ICJ's ruling?

Shortly after the ICJ issued its ruling, Israeli forces intensified their attacks on Rafah, wiping out entire neighborhoods, indicating a defiance of the ICJ's order.

What is the role of the ICJ, and why does its ruling carry weight despite Israel's defiance?

The ICJ's rulings are final and legally binding. While it doesn't have a direct enforcement mechanism, its rulings set international legal standards and can influence political and diplomatic actions.

What are the implications of Israel's potential non-compliance with the ICJ's orders?

Non-compliance could lead to increased international pressure and isolation for Israel, as well as potential countermeasures such as economic sanctions from other states.

What is the situation regarding the Rafah border crossing, and what does the ICJ order regarding it?

The ICJ ordered Israel to reopen the Rafah border crossing and allow aid into Gaza. This is significant as famine is already affecting parts of the North, and the World Health Organization warns it could spread across the strip.

What is the Israeli government's stance on the ICJ's ruling, and how do some Israelis view the situation?

The Israeli government condemned the ICJ's ruling, arguing it is defending itself and fighting Hamas. Some Israelis agree, finding the conversation around the ruling ludicrous, while others are concerned about the implications of non-compliance.

What are the potential consequences if the ICJ's orders are ignored by Israel?

Ignoring the ICJ's orders could lead to a loss of international standing for Israel, increased diplomatic pressure, and potential legal consequences, including the possibility of arrest warrants for Israeli leaders.

How does the situation in Gaza relate to the International Criminal Court (ICC)?

The ICC is currently debating whether to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders and Hamas leaders in relation to the situation in Gaza, which is separate but related to the ICJ's ruling.

What is the potential impact of the ICJ's ruling on the United States' position and its relationship with Israel?

The United States, which has been a staunch supporter of Israel, could find itself in a difficult position if the ICJ's ruling is ignored, as it may have to choose between its alliance with Israel and its commitment to international law.

Outlines

00:00

🏢 Israel Defies UN Court Order on Gaza Assault

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has issued a legally binding order for Israel to cease its military operations in Rafah, Gaza, as part of a wider genocide case initiated by South Africa. Despite the ICJ's authority, it lacks enforcement mechanisms, leading to skepticism about the order's effectiveness. Israel has previously disregarded ICJ rulings and continues to intensify its assault, citing the need to disarm Hamas. The situation in Gaza worsens with the potential for famine, and the ICJ also ordered the reopening of the Rafah border crossing to allow aid. Israeli officials have condemned the ICJ's ruling, arguing they are defending against Hamas, and some Israelis agree with this stance. The discussion raises questions about the impact of the ICJ's orders and the potential consequences for Israel's international standing.

05:01

👥 Expert Opinions on Israel's Compliance with ICJ Ruling

In a panel discussion, various perspectives are shared regarding Israel's potential compliance with the ICJ's ruling. Muhammad D, a lawyer, suggests that Israel may reconsider its actions due to the clarity of the ICJ's order and the risk of arrest warrants for Netanyahu and other officials. Alan Neel, a former Israeli diplomat, provides Israel's perspective, indicating they view the order as not to inflict harm on civilians and may continue operations under certain interpretations. William Schabas, an international law expert, finds Israel's potential non-compliance preposterous, given the clarity of the ruling. The conversation also touches on the possibility of the UN Security Council becoming involved and the implications of international pressure on Israel.

10:01

🛡️ Israel's Justification and International Criticism

The panelists discuss Israel's justification for rejecting ICJ orders and the ensuing international criticism. Alan Neel explains that Israel interprets the ICJ's orders in a way that allows it to continue operations, focusing on the protection of its civilians. However, the panelists agree that this interpretation may not hold globally. The conversation also highlights the growing international pressure on Israel, including potential isolation and the impact on its diplomatic relations. The Israeli public's reaction to this pressure is mixed, with some being concerned about the consequences of non-compliance and others adopting a more indifferent stance.

15:03

🚨 Challenges of Enforcing ICJ Ruling and UN Investigative Access

The discussion turns to the challenges of enforcing the ICJ's ruling, particularly in allowing UN investigators into Gaza. Muhammad D explains that Israel maintains strict control over Gaza's borders, making it unlikely that investigators will be granted access. The panelists also consider the broader implications of Israel's defiance, including its impact on the genocide case and the potential for arrest warrants to be issued against Israeli leaders by the International Criminal Court (ICC).

20:04

🌐 International Implications and US Dilemma

The conversation explores the international implications of Israel's defiance of the ICJ's orders, especially for the United States, which has been a staunch supporter of Israel. The panelists discuss the potential for the situation to escalate to the UN Security Council, where the US might face a difficult decision regarding its support for Israel. The discussion also touches on the broader implications for international law and the potential for other states to take non-violent countermeasures against Israel.

25:06

🔄 Potential Shifts in Israel's International Standing

The final part of the discussion considers the possibility of Israel reevaluating its stance in light of increasing international pressure and isolation. The panelists weigh in on the potential for Israel to face consequences if it continues to defy international rulings and the impact this could have on its international standing. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the critical juncture Israel faces in deciding between pursuing security at the expense of its international reputation or finding a diplomatic solution.

Keywords

💡International Court of Justice (ICJ)

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations (UN), established to settle legal disputes between nations and to provide advisory opinions on legal questions referred to it. In the video's context, the ICJ has issued an order for Israel to cease its military operations in Rafah, Gaza, as part of a case brought by South Africa accusing Israel of genocide. The ICJ's rulings are final and legally binding, but it lacks enforcement mechanisms, which raises questions about the effectiveness of its orders in this situation.

💡Genocide

Genocide refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. In the video, South Africa has brought a case against Israel to the ICJ, accusing it of committing genocide in Gaza. The term is significant as it frames the severity of the alleged actions and the international legal response required to address such crimes.

💡Rafah

Rafah is a city located in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. The city is central to the video's narrative as the ICJ has ordered Israel to halt its military operations specifically in this area. Rafah has been a focal point of conflict, with Israel citing the need to dismantle Hamas as a justification for its actions there.

💡Hamas

Hamas is a Palestinian Islamic organization that governs the Gaza Strip. In the video, Israel claims it is intensifying its assault on Rafah to dismantle Hamas, which it views as a terrorist organization. The mention of Hamas illustrates the complex political dynamics at play in the conflict and the reasons Israel provides for its military actions.

💡Legal Binding

The term 'legal binding' refers to a ruling, decision, or agreement that is enforceable by law and must be obeyed. The ICJ's orders are described as final and legally binding in the video, indicating that Israel is obligated under international law to comply with the court's directives to cease military operations in Rafah.

💡Enforcement

Enforcement in the context of the video pertains to the mechanisms by which the ICJ's orders are carried out or compelled. Despite the ICJ's rulings being legally binding, the court lacks its own enforcement capabilities, leading to discussions in the video about the effectiveness of international law and potential consequences for non-compliance.

💡Humanitarian Aid

Humanitarian aid refers to the assistance provided for humanitarian purposes, often in situations of disaster, conflict, or poverty. The ICJ ordered Israel to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza through the Rafah border crossing. This highlights the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza and the international community's concern for the well-being of its inhabitants.

💡Diplomatic Isolation

Diplomatic isolation refers to a state's lack of diplomatic relations or being shunned by other nations. In the video, there is a discussion about the potential for Israel to face increased diplomatic isolation due to its actions in Gaza and the international community's response, including the possibility of more countries recognizing Palestine.

💡International Criminal Court (ICC)

The International Criminal Court (ICC) is an international tribunal that sits in The Hague in the Netherlands and is intended to prosecute individuals for international crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes. The video mentions the ICC in relation to the potential issuance of arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, which would further complicate Israel's international standing.

💡United Nations Security Council

The United Nations Security Council is one of the six main organs of the UN and is charged with ensuring international peace and security. It has the power to enforce the rulings of the ICJ, as discussed in the video. The US, as a permanent member of the Security Council, has the ability to veto resolutions, which puts it in a difficult position if the ICJ's rulings are brought before the Council.

💡State Sovereignty

State sovereignty is the principle that each state has the highest authority over its territory and that no other state or entity has the right to interfere in its domestic affairs. The video touches on the concept of state sovereignty in the context of Israel's actions in Gaza and the international community's response, raising questions about the limits of sovereignty when it comes to human rights and international law.

Highlights

Israel intensifies military operations in Gaza despite the UN International Court of Justice ordering it to stop its assault on Rafah.

The ICJ's ruling is part of a genocide case brought by South Africa against Israel over its actions in Gaza.

Israel has a history of not complying with the ICJ's orders, raising questions about the effectiveness of these measures.

The ICJ's rulings are final and legally binding but lack enforcement mechanisms.

Israel claims it plans to intensify its assault on Rafah to dismantle Hamas, indicating a likely disregard for the ICJ's order.

Many Palestinians doubt the ICJ's orders will change the situation or stop Israel's offensive.

Israel was ordered to reopen the Rafah border crossing and allow aid into Gaza, where famine is already affecting some areas.

Israeli officials condemned the ICJ's ruling, arguing they are defending themselves and fighting Hamas.

Some Israelis agree with the government's stance, considering the ICJ's involvement ludicrous.

Analysts question the impact of the ICJ's ruling and whether it will be dismissed by Israel without consequences.

States can take non-violent countermeasures, such as economic sanctions, to enforce compliance with ICJ orders.

Palestinians in Gaza are left waiting to see if the ICJ's orders will extend beyond words.

The Israeli government may think twice about future actions in Rafah due to the ICJ's clear order and potential arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Galant.

Alan Neel suggests that Israel might be cautious with the ICJ's order, especially regarding civilian casualties.

William Schabas argues that Israel's interpretation of the ICJ's order is preposterous and that the world will likely see it as such.

The ICJ's ruling carries weight despite Israel's history of ignoring previous rulings, and its compliance is expected by most countries.

Israel's defiance of the ICJ's order may influence the International Criminal Court's decision on whether to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders.

The US is in a difficult position as it continues to support Israel, potentially facing a challenge if the issue moves to the UN Security Council.

Israel may face a critical decision between pursuing diplomatic or military solutions in response to international pressure and isolation.

Transcripts

Israel intensifies military operations

in Gaza that's despite the UN stop Court

ordering it to immediately hold its

assault on Rafa it's not the first time

Israel has refused to comply with an

order from the world court so what's the

point of these measures and how can they

be enforced this is Inside Story

[Music]

hello and welcome to the program I'm

fuli batibo the international court of

justice has ordered Israel to stop its

assault on Rafa the order is one of

three issued by the un's top Court in

the genocide case brought by South

Africa against Israel over its war on

Gaza Israel has long declared it plans

to intensify its assault on the southern

city saying it's necessary to dism Hamas

and it appears it plans to follow

through with that strategy the icj's

rulings are final and legally binding

but it doesn't have a way to enforce

them so does this latest order carry any

weight and will it affect events on the

ground and how will prime minister

Netanyahu manage increased pressure at

home and abroad we'll explore these

questions with our guests in just a

moment but first this report by K Lopez

hyan it's a signific ific an move for

the un's top Court a landmark emergency

ruling ordering Israel to stop its

assault on Rafa Israel must immediately

hold its military offensive and any

other action in the Rafa Governor which

may inflict on the Palestinian group in

Gaza conditions of life that could bring

about its physical destruction in whole

or in

part but shortly after the international

court of justice issued its ruling

Israeli forces intensified their attacks

wiping out entire

neighborhoods the ruling is part of a

wider legal case that began with South

Africa accusing Israel of genocide in

Gaza many Palestinians doubt any of the

Court's orders will change things or

stop the government of Israeli Prime

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu from moving

forward with the

offensive I hope Israel will comply but

it hasn't cared about Court's rulings or

even its allies in the

past Israel will continue the massacres

Israel is a state above the law and no

one can stop

it as part of the ruling Israel was

ordered to reopen the Rafa border

crossing and allow Aid into Gaza famine

is already affecting parts of the North

and the World Health Organization says

it can spread across the strip

fast Israeli officials have condemned

demed the icj's ruling the government

says it's defending itself and fighting

Hamas and some Israelis agree the fact

that they're even having this

conversation is quite ludicrous to be

honest I think that we have women young

women we have men we have elderly

individuals that have been taken hostage

and while Israel is a signatory to the

Geneva conventions the icj has no means

to enforce its orders many analysts now

question whether the ruling like other

legal motions will be dismissed by

Israel and if so if there will be

consequences states can choose to take

countermeasures uh against other states

uh non-violent counter measures would

include things like economic sanctions

for example um in order to induce

enforcement all of that depends

obviously on the the political will in

the

situation for now Palestinians in Gaza

must wait to see if the icj's court

orders will extend beyond

words kope oan Al jazer for insight

story well let's now bring in our guests

for today's show joining us in occupied

East Jerusalem is mammed D who is a

lawyer and a founder of an East

Jerusalem Law Firm that practices in the

Israeli and Palestinian legal systems in

Tel Aviv Alan Nel a former Israeli

Diplomat who served as Israel's

ambassador to South Africa and in London

William shabas he's an international law

expert and a professor at middle sex

University gentlemen thank you for

joining us on inside or a warm welcome

to all of you uh Muhammad D if I can

start with you a legally binding order

from the international uh court of

justice for Israel to stop its offensive

on Rafa are you at all hopeful the

Israelis will heed this call at some

point in time so far it doesn't seem to

be the

case yeah it hasn't been the case but I

think that the Israeli Army and that the

Israeli government cannot continue to

ignore international law in this case a

specific

International court order this is a a

clear order this time and it talks about

a specific area the the RAF area and I

think that this time with

the warrant orders the the arrest orders

by the IC also waiting for bam Netanyahu

and Galant I think that the Israeli

government will think twice this time

when they decide on their future actions

in Rafa so it's not it it is Bing Israel

hasn't been following international law

in the past but I think with this

current order they will uh they will

they will treat it in a different way I

don't think that the Israeli government

can continue to violate international

law can continue not to comply with

orders issued by the international court

of justice the high highest court in the

world and get away with it I think this

time they know that the time has come

for Israel really to comply with these

orders and to comply with the

international law and if they don't do

so then the risks of uh arrest warrants

for the two gentlemen that we spoke

about and maybe others the risk is is

getting higher and higher okay Alan Neel

your thoughts will Netanyahu completely

ignore this order will the Israeli

government continue to defy the highest

court of international

law in Israel the interpretation is

different ER the Israeli government sees

the order as to stop the violence once

or if it is inflicting damage on

civilians and the Israeli government say

we are not

inflicting any damage or casualties on

civilians

and will go on with a war in Rafa ER I

think although Israel has a different

interpretation it'll be very cautious

especially when it comes to

civilians but I don't think Israel

intends to end the

war H what can H maybe force Israel to

do so is if these orders go to the UN

Security Council

for another vote and we'll need another

American veto then a new procedure will

start okay I'll ask you a little bit

more about what we can expect at the UN

Security Council in a moment let me

bring in William shabas into the

conversation uh William Alan leel says

there is in Israel that there's a very

different interpretation of this law but

as Muhammad D said it's it's a very

clear order this time from the

international court of justice a very

specific ruling unlike the two previous

this once the court is ordering Israel

to stop the the military operation in

Rafa to allow humanitarian Aid in

through Rafa and other Crossings how

much weight does this ruling carry uh

despite Israel ignoring previous rulings

of the

Court well I totally agree I think the

ruling uh and the order from the court

couldn't be much clearer than it is and

the the idea that Israel can interpret

this in some way that allows it to

continue with its military offensive is

is quite Preposterous and I think the

whole world will will see that um of

course it's clear now that Israel

doesn't intend to comply with it

whatever uh whatever contrived

interpretation it develops about the

order and as as everyone knows there is

not an enforcement mechanism as such the

enforc what's the purpose then of these

measures William shabas if they're going

to be ignored well you don't know that

they're going to be ignored until you

order them and I think that for most

countries who've been on the receiving

end of these orders historically they do

comply with them and so South Africa has

no alternative it has to go to the court

to get the orders um and then hopefully

political pressure will be put on Israel

to get it to comply already we're seeing

the consequences on Israel uh with many

of its allies and Friends many of the

countries that have been very supportive

and friendly to Israel are losing their

taste for this um partly because they

also value and and respect the

international court of justice they

can't stomach Israel's attitude of of

absolute disdain for an order by a court

Israel accepted this Israel never had to

ratify the genocide convention but once

it did it opened the door to orders from

the international court of justice and

it it is it is obliged to respect them

Alan how does Israel continue to justify

rejecting these orders from uh the

international court of justice is Israel

Above the

Law no I explained how Israel justifies

it it takes the word if it may inflict

and so on but H the headlines in the

world are that the court ordered Israel

to end the operation in Rafa and

definitely this will trigger more

criticism some of it probably in the UN

and some of it

bilaterally I don't think this

International court of justice order is

standing on its own you have

simultaneously several things happening

now in Israel's pH relations that are

causing what we call here a tsunami or a

diplomatic tsunami and Israel has to

look at the wider picture definitely we

are losing support in more and more

parts of the world especially in Europe

now that is seen as very important to us

yeah certainly Alan leel this has been a

bad week for Israel How concerned are

Israelis about this growing

International pressure and this growing

International isolation it's not just

this latest ruling by the international

court of justice it's also the ICC

seeking to issue arrest warrants against

uh Israeli leaders and also Hamas

leaders and some very important European

countries as you mentioned who are now

demanding uh that an independent

Palestinian State be established how

does this resonate with the Israeli

public at

large the Israeli public is not too

concerned unfortunately an attitude was

developed with most of the Israel public

that no matter what we do the world will

be against us as the world is by

definition

anti-semitic so there is a tendency to

overlook what's happening in the

International Community on the other end

many Israelis are really really worried

that if H we end the war Hamas will have

a comeback and will attack us again

so this is the the feeling in the public

however netan will be the one making the

decision he he can decide on its on his

own he has in his cabinet some ministers

say let's go the diplomatic way others

are pushing for the military way and he

has to the side yeah all right Muhammad

Dal your thoughts about this Alan Neel

says there a different interpretation of

this latest ruling by Israel and the

Israel views these decisions made uh at

the international uh level as

anti-semitic what do you make of

this well I think as you know Israel has

sent a judge adhoc judge Barack who is

part of the international court of

justice and I think now Israel is trying

basically to base its case on his

descending opinion in his opinion he

tried to say that actually the

international court of justice is not

ordering a total freeze of the military

offense in Rafa but actually it it does

so with certain conditions that if they

are met uh then Israel uh should stop

the operation but if Israel doesn't

inflict this

physical damage to the Palestinian civil

population then the operation can

continue so that's the expl explanation

that Barack in his opinion when it was

issued that what he actually presented

to the Israeli government to the Israeli

attorney general basically giving advice

to the Israeli Army yet reading the

decision uh of the 13 judges in the

court they say that actually there is no

way to uh operate in Rafa without

inflicting this damage on the civilian

population they mentioned what Israel

has tried to do with the several

hundreds Palestinians that they

evacuated from Rafa to al- maasi area

and other areas and they the court says

in its ruling that those areas are not

adequate for habilitation people cannot

really live there there are no houses no

water no sewage nothing therefore the

interpretation given by the Israelis I

think will not be accepted by anybody in

the world but that's the that's how

Israel got away with it until now all

the time Israel has its own

interpretation to international law

including International humanitarian law

and that was only an Israeli

interpretation that was different from

what the World Scholars think about

International humanitarian law briefly

Muhammad Dal before I bring uh William

back into the conversation the ruling

also says Israel has to allow un

investigators into Gaza uh to to

investigate the genocide case right

what's the likelihood of that happening

of Israel allowing investigators into

the

territory it hasn't allowed in the past

several un inquiry commissions were

supposed to come to the Palestinian

territories in the past based on

different uh resolutions of the United

Nations General Assembly uh human rights

Council or other committees and Israel

in the past hasn't been cooperative and

this time I don't think it's going to be

any different Israel this is actually

this this shows the case of Gaza Gaza

has been besieged Gaza is still under

isra full control from the sea from the

air and uh from the the border the

territorial borders no one can enter

Gaza without an Israeli permit or an

Israeli consent and Israel is the only

one who decides who comes and who goes

out of Gaza

therefore I think that the Israelis will

not allow the the the you know the

investigators to come in so far they

haven't been able to do that even Karim

Karim Khan the the the Attorney General

of the IC was not able to enter Gaza he

only came to the ra Cross Point and but

he was not able to get to get inside

Gaza he visited the Israeli kuim inside

Israel but he wasn't was n able to get

inside Gaza although he got the

information from other un agencies but

entering into Gaza is a totally

different story so unlikely to happen

all the time is hindering that unlikely

to happen then William uh will a

Defiance of this order uh my

understanding is that uh there's no

immediate sanction for violating the

provisional orders issued by the uh

International court of justice but does

the ruling have broader implications for

the genocide case that Israel is

facing well in principle it doesn't it's

a preliminary ruling about an urgent

situation and it's without prejudice as

we lawyers say to the merits of the case

but clearly the attitude and the

violence it's we we consense the

attitude of the judges already I I think

Israel's approach in reading this order

in this very technical Manner and

suggesting that somehow it allows them

to continue with business as usual is

really not a reading in good faith you

have to read the judgments you have to

read what the other members of the Court

have said in their individual opinions

and one cons sense that this is a court

that is getting more angrier and angrier

and and more and more impatient with

Israel so Israel is not heading into a

good place in this case of course

there's going to be a great debate when

this finally goes on the merits but it's

not it's not looking good for Israel in

terms of its future at the international

court of justice what about at the

international criminal court will a

Defiance of this order by Israel affect

the pre-trial chamber of the ICC which

is currently debating whether to issue

arrest warrants against Israeli

leaders not technically of course not

because it has no the the two are not

directly related in any way but uh again

what we can see here listen there are 13

judges of the court from all over the

world from countries that are friendly

to Israel as well as countries that are

perhaps less friendly to Israel and

they're unanimous about this we can

expect the same kind of sentiment the

same kind of mood amongst the three

judges at the pre-trial chamber of the

international uh Criminal Court who are

going to have to rule in the coming

weeks on the prosecutor's application

for the arrest warrants of course we

can't foresee what they'll decide but

this sets the tone and I I think we we

can anticipate that those arrest

warrants will be issued and there are

all kinds of other sort of soft effects

of this that go outside of the legal

sphere altogether and we've made

reference to them already the fact that

there's an increasing number a growing

momentum of states to recognize

Palestine as a state and probably open

the door still the United States is an

obstacle but it's the last only the last

obstacle to admitting Palestine as a

full member state of the United Nations

right and Muhammad I'll ask you about uh

about this the us being this obstacle uh

but let me just uh get Alan neel's

thoughts about what uh uh William said

there I mean what happens Alan if these

arrest warrants are issued Israel's

credibility has uh radically diminished

within the course of this war on Gaza

there's a shifting perception today in

the world of Israel as a law abiding uh

democracy what would it mean for Israel

to lose that status and to be treated as

a non-democracy

oh as far as I remember remember uh

124 countries members of the

international criminal court H will have

to arrest netan and Gallant our Minister

of Defense if orders are issued so this

definitely is quite an embarrassment and

quite a complication to our H for

relations Israel will try to undermine

it

legally ER the visits to the United

States are still possible even if orders

will be issued because the United States

is not a member of the

IC I think at this stage from all the

discussion the issue that is the most

urgent one in Israeli eyes is if it will

reach the security Council because as

far as I understand every one of the 15

members of the security Council can now

pull it to a discussion there and in the

security Council it'll be very difficult

for the United States to vote against a

verdict or an order of the international

court of justice so in a way we are

complicating the international situation

of the United States If It Moves again

to the security Council so a lot is

happening

simultaneously

definitely embarrassing to Israel

embarrassing to Israel Muhammad D only

the security Council has the power to

enforce these rulings by the

international court of justice but as

we've heard from both uh William and

Alan there it's likely that the the US

will veto uh any moves at the security

Council so what then should be done to

uh enforce uh these rulings and and how

difficult a position does this put the

US in I mean they've backed Israel uh

through in throughout this conflict how

difficult will it be for them if this

gets to the security

Council I think it puts the United

States in a very difficult position I

mean for how long can the the the US use

the veto to rescue Israel from its

troubles and from the troubles that they

are putting the United States in as well

and we're not talking about the IC now

we have heard what the Israelis are

asking the the US Administration to do

to the IC attorney general and to the

judges and to the employes at the IC

they want them to sanction the court we

haven't heard such a thing ever I mean

asking the superpower to sanction an

international court for issuing or for

issuing a motion only for the time being

uh to ask for an arrest warrant for war

criminals uh this is UN unheard of un

think of but now we are moving to the

ICC and the ICC is an organ of the

United Nations and the United States is

part of that of that order it's part of

the IC it's part of the United Nations

unlike the sorry it's part of the

icj which the United States is not part

of it it's not the United States in a

very awkward position uhuh uh and and

and and basically saying that this uh

you know world or order that we

established after the second world war

which includes the UN Charter and it

includes the international court of

justice and so many other International

covenants and conventions and agreements

that are supposed to regulate relations

between peoples between countries

between states that those are actually

are not applicable in the case of Israel

the United States has been under a huge

embarrassment for its treatment to

Israel in this current conflict not now

only but throughout the years and now

it's in in really a very very bad

position if it continues to use that

veto because it's going to be clear for

all the International Community that

that this move is against international

law and against International jti let me

get William's thoughts about this

William how much does this heighten the

cost for the Biden Administration as it

continues to be Israel's sole guarantor

and Defender and what are the next steps

as far as International law is concerned

I mean they what are the obligations of

third States in this

case you know I wouldn't underestimate

the ability of the United States to be

hypocritical on these subjects the

United States has been keenly supporting

the international criminal court when

it's investigating the Russians in

Ukraine despite the fact that it claims

that the court has no jurisdiction over

people who aren't citizens of a member

State now of course they're raising that

objection and they're going to be uh

trying to take measures apparently to

block the work of the court it's not the

first time they've done it they tried

back in 2002 when it looked like the

Rome statute was going to enter enter

into Force which it did of course and

then they tried under the Trump

Administration but these were really

quite pathetic efforts that had no teeth

in them uh in in reality they had very

little in the way of practical

consequences and and I don't see that

they thought up anything brilliant since

then that could actually inflict pain

it's a annoyance it's an annoyance

disgraceful that they're doing it but

but it's not going to stop the

international criminal court proceeding

with what what it is set up to do okay

uh Alan leel is Israel and the Israeli

government likely to reevaluate its

position uh in the face of intensifying

international pressure and intensifying

isolation uh it's a difficult question

because uh um

I don't know if this wave will continue

but if it will continue if both courts

the IC and icj will go on with the

pressures if the security Council will

go on voting if more European countries

will recognize Palestine if it will end

up with the America in a

certain time not

Ving then Israel will have to listen

I think we are at a critical Junction if

we give up on our International standing

and focus on our security or if we go

after 100%

security because of the pressure of the

Israeli population the Israeli

government will have to decide if to go

now the military way or the Diplomatic

way thank you gentlemen for a very

interesting

conversation thank you very much for

joining us Muhammad D Alan leel William

shabas thank you to all three of

you and thank you too for watching you

can always watch this program again

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you for watching bye for

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